keyboarding injuries from chording in emacs
Matt Garman
those caused by "chording" (pressing multiple keys simultaneously)?
In particular, one of my CS professors pointed out something that I
had never considered before: keyboarding injuries. Given that I'll
most likely be spending the next 40 years or so interfacing with the
keyboard and mouse, I want to minimize my risk of repetetive stress
injuries (e.g. carpel tunnel syndrome).
That same professor went on to say that chording can be a significant
cause of such injuries. I've been a vim user since :)
Now I've been playing with emacs recently, and liking it. But I am
scared about the possibly harmful effects of chording. For example, I
was doing a task in emacs where I was doing more chording that actual
typing (I basically had my pinky achored on the CTRL key while the
other fingers danced across the keyboard). I thought I felt my wrists
starting to get sore, but it could have been mental (because this is
something I think about fairly often).
On the other hand, intuitively it seems that chording isn't so bad, as
long as I use common sense. I.e., a lot of chording shouldn't be any
different from a lot of plain old typing, as long I take frequent
breaks, stretch and excercise my wrists, use good posture, etc.
Any thoughts here?
Thanks,
Matt
--
Matt Garman, gar...@uiuc.edu
``I ain't never seen no whiskey, the blues made my sloppy drunk!''
-- Sleepy John Estes, ``Leaving Trunk''
Richard
finger on one hand and hit the letter with a finger on the other. To save a
file in emacs, I've got my right index finger on the control key and then
just type "xs" with my left pinky and ring finger (in that order). Then
again, I use some pretty weird typing techniques (I've had a computer around
since I was four and didn't have my first intro to keyboarding for another
10 years at which point I completely shunned it since by that point I was
already touch-typing at 60 wpm with my left hand while my right hand was
free for the mouse, the phone a drink, the ctrl-key in emacs, whatever...)
as for carpel tunnel, maybe I've just been lucky, but I've been using
computers for 18 years now (emacs specfically for 4) and playing the drums
for 5 years <sarcasm> which they claim also does wondeful things for your
wrists. </sarcasm> And I've yet to have any problems.
Richard
ps - oh, as a recent CS graduate myself, my advice to you is that unless
your CS prof is extrememly interesting, it's probably best that you ignore
him/her at ALL times regardless of what s/he's talking about, they'll just
confuse things you already understood anyway. Just read the textbook, go
mess around in the lab for a while and get the notes off someone else if you
feel you're still lacking... worked for me :)
"Matt Garman" <gar...@uiuc.edu> wrote in message
news:slrn9vtjim...@sewage.c1858677-a.chmpgn1.il.home.com...
Brian Nelson
> Does anyone have any thoughts on keyboarding injuries, in particular
> those caused by "chording" (pressing multiple keys simultaneously)?
<snip>
I think the single most important thing to do for a more comfortable
typing experience with emacs is to map the control key to where it
belongs--where the caps lock key is on most PC keyboards. That
signficantly reduces the contortions your wrist experiences, and it
quite a bit quicker to engage.
Learning to use the dvorak keyboard layout is quite helpful as well.
It helps reduce the amount of finger and wrist movement while typing.
Finally, a nice keyboard is important as well. Most keyboards that
come with PC's these days are cheap plastic shit. I recommend the
Avant Stellar.
--
Brian Nelson <nel...@bignachos.com>
BigN...@jabber.org
http://bignachos.com
Harry Putnam
> Does anyone have any thoughts on keyboarding injuries, in particular
> those caused by "chording" (pressing multiple keys simultaneously)?
I suspect this is largely overhyped bull puckey. For example:
20yrs ago we had nearly as many grocery clerks as now but you didn't
see 30 % of them wearing the carpal tunnel braces.. In some measure I
suspect some of this has been medical fadism
> In particular, one of my CS professors pointed out something that I
> had never considered before: keyboarding injuries. Given that I'll
> most likely be spending the next 40 years or so interfacing with the
> keyboard and mouse, I want to minimize my risk of repetetive stress
> injuries (e.g. carpel tunnel syndrome).
I believe your chances of those injuries are considerably lessened if
you spend the first 30 of your working years in heavy construction
using 2" drive impact guns and 12 lb sledge hammers often. I've been
a daily emacs user for about 5 yrs now and even heavier since I
retired from constructoin a year ago. Doesn't bother me at all... he
he.
> That same professor went on to say that chording can be a significant
> cause of such injuries. I've been a vim user since :)
Did he produce data? But with vim you have to worry about back
trouble. That constant backflip to get to ESC may wreak havoc.
Luis Fernandes
garman> [...] For example, I was doing a task in emacs where
garman> I was doing more chording that actual typing (I basically
garman> had my pinky achored on the CTRL key while the other
garman> fingers danced across the keyboard). I thought I felt my
garman> wrists starting to get sore, but it could have been
garman> mental (because this is something I think about fairly
garman> often).
Been there, done that, felt the pain...still feeling the pain. In my
younger days I used to code for a solid 10 hours.
Now, due to my injured left wrist, I can no longer type for more than
an hour continously. I have even swapped Ctrl and Caps lock on my
Sun Unix keyboard so I force myself to move my hand to reach the Ctrl
key rather than stretch my pinky-- but I sometimes forget.
Take care.
Stefan Monnier <foo@acm.com>
> Does anyone have any thoughts on keyboarding injuries, in particular
> those caused by "chording" (pressing multiple keys simultaneously)?
Easy: don't touch-type.
That will make sure that you move your hands enough to avoid any problem.
Emacs and its "few (tho complex) key strokes" approach compensates for
the slower typing. And typing speed is not relevant anyway since you'll
spend more time thinking about what to write.
Stefan
Kai Großjohann
> That same professor went on to say that chording can be a significant
> cause of such injuries. I've been a vim user since :)
After having seen this mentioned on a newsgroup, I started to use
Viper, instead :-)
But then, I'm not used to the vim goodies -- Viper emulates vi and
not vim.
kai
--
Simplification good! Oversimplification bad! (Larry Wall)
Lewis Perin
> Does anyone have any thoughts on keyboarding injuries, in particular
> those caused by "chording" (pressing multiple keys simultaneously)?
> [...]
A heavy Emacs user for many years, I had a left-wrist meltdown that
resolved itself only when I switched to the Ergo Elan keyboard made by
Kinesis. It looks pretty radical, with deep sculpting and "rows" of
keys that aren't exactly straight. Those features are probably
useful, but what really did the trick for me was the way your two
thumbs are given real work to do: not just a huge spacebar to share
but a lot of keys cleverly placed so your thumbs can easily reach
them. Among the thumb keys is Ctrl, once for each thumb; this way you
chord with the strongest digit not the weakest. The only drawback is
that this keyboard takes time to learn. I never intend to go back to
"regular" keyboards.
Disclaimer: I'm only a customer.
/Lew
--
Lew Perin / pe...@acm.org
http://www.panix.com/~perin/worry.html
Alan Mackenzie
> Does anyone have any thoughts on keyboarding injuries, in particular
> those caused by "chording" (pressing multiple keys simultaneously)?
> In particular, one of my CS professors pointed out something that I
> had never considered before: keyboarding injuries. Given that I'll
> most likely be spending the next 40 years or so interfacing with the
> keyboard and mouse, I want to minimize my risk of repetitive stress
> injuries (e.g. carpel tunnel syndrome).
> That same professor went on to say that chording can be a significant
> cause of such injuries. I've been a vim user since :)
vim has different problems. But even vim uses C-e, C-y, C-r, .....
> Now I've been playing with emacs recently, and liking it. But I am
> scared about the possibly harmful effects of chording. For example, I
> was doing a task in emacs where I was doing more chording that actual
> typing (I basically had my pinky achored on the CTRL key while the
> other fingers danced across the keyboard). I thought I felt my wrists
> starting to get sore, but it could have been mental (because this is
> something I think about fairly often).
> On the other hand, intuitively it seems that chording isn't so bad, as
> long as I use common sense. I.e., a lot of chording shouldn't be any
> different from a lot of plain old typing, as long I take frequent
> breaks, stretch and excercise my wrists, use good posture, etc.
> Any thoughts here?
Yes. Make sure your desk is at the right height. If it's not, swap
desks. Ideally, they should be adjustable in height.
I had a problem some years ago when the place I was working discarded its
promiscuous mix of furniture and bought coordinated uniform wall-to-wall
designer stuff. YUCK! The desks were too high for me (by about 5cm/2")
and my right wrist started playing up within a few days. Soon I could
barely use the keyboard and the mouse not at all. Complaints to the
health and safety person were treated as non-urgent. Very soon I brought
a spanner into work and removed the little rubber feet from the desk,
much to the annoyance of my boss. Thankfully, my wrists recovered fully.
I don't seem to have any problems with chording. I think your prof might
be overstating the case. After all, people have been using the shift
keys on typewriters for around a century, mostly without problems.
If it ever does become a problem, binding some otherwise useless key to
C-x would probably help.
> Matt Garman, gar...@uiuc.edu
--
Alan Mackenzie (Munich, Germany)
Email: aa...@muuc.dee; to decode, wherever there is a repeated letter
(like "aa"), remove half of them (leaving, say, "a").
Galen Boyer
> Matt Garman <gar...@uiuc.edu> writes:
> I think the single most important thing to do for a more
> comfortable typing experience with emacs is to map the control
> key to where it belongs--where the caps lock key is on most PC
> keyboards. That signficantly reduces the contortions your
> wrist experiences, and it quite a bit quicker to engage.
Well, I'm having lots of trouble with this, but in my right hand,
and I don't hit control keys with that hand.
--
Galen deForest Boyer
Sweet dreams and flying machines in pieces on the ground.
Ole Laursen
> Those features are probably useful, but what really did the trick
> for me was the way your two thumbs are given real work to do: not
> just a huge spacebar to share but a lot of keys cleverly placed so
> your thumbs can easily reach them.
I've bought an Ergo Elan too, and I agree with you. They are much more
friendly towards the little fingers because of the thumb keys. And the
curved keys make for faster typing, plus it is much easier reaching
the number row. I can actually touch type numbers now, something I
never learned with a normal keyboard.
However, the Kinesis keyboards aren't cheap. Especially not if you
need them to send the keyboard to Denmark. :-)
(But on the other hand, for someone who is spending most of his life
in front of a keyboard, it is not *too* much for the extra speed and
comfort.)
> The only drawback is that this keyboard takes time to learn. I never
> intend to go back to "regular" keyboards.
The thumb placement of back space and enter makes for a lot of fun in
the transition period... I spent some time with the supplied teaching
program, which helped a little. So the biggest remaining problem was
that I had to rebind the keys in Unreal Tournament and retrain all my
previously super-fast reflexes, meanwhile getting fragged like a pig
in a slaughter house...
--
Ole Laursen
http://sunsite.dk/olau/
Peter Milliken
different physical syptoms? :-) I have been using computer keyboards for
over 20 years now, Emacs for the last 12 of those years. Never a single
suggestion of carpel-tunnel until just the last couple of years ago when I
started having to use mouse driven applications more and more - pain is only
in the right wrist (mouse wrist :-)).
Pysotherapist prescribes simple exercises to strengthen the muscles around
the wrist. I suspect that all of these carpal tunnel braces (well, some
number :-)) are due to the fact that people just aren't as active as they
used to be and therefore they have a lack of muscle tone in the areas
affected i.e. I can't recall ever seeing somebody who obviously does body
building (and therefore has nice thick wrists) wearing a brace :-).
So, my suggestion is some simple exercises (see your local Pysotherapist)
and you shouldn't have any worries :-).
Peter
"Harry Putnam" <rea...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:m17kshh...@reader.newsguy.com...
Chris Beggy
> Not so much medical fadism but perhaps different living habits and therefore
> different physical syptoms? :-) I have been using computer keyboards for
> over 20 years now, Emacs for the last 12 of those years. Never a single
> suggestion of carpel-tunnel until just the last couple of years ago when I
> started having to use mouse driven applications more and more - pain is only
> in the right wrist (mouse wrist :-)).
Here are some links put together by a student who had to stop using
computer keyboards and playing the piano for over a year:
http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~dbaron/links/Computers#Repetitive
There's a complete site on Typing Injuries at:
Chris
kgold
Ole Laursen <ol...@hardworking.dk> writes:
>
> I've bought an Ergo Elan too, [snip]
> However, the Kinesis keyboards [snip]
I've heard it said that emacs needs a keyboard with foot pedals.
The comment usually has a :-) after it, but if people can learn Dvorak,
why not get the feet moving?
--
--
Ken Goldman kg...@watson.ibm.com 914-784-7646
Hubert Chan
Hash: SHA1
>>>>> "Ole" == Ole Laursen <ol...@hardworking.dk> writes:
Ole> Lewis Perin <pe...@panix.com> writes:
>> Those features are probably useful, but what really did the trick for
>> me was the way your two thumbs are given real work to do: not just a
>> huge spacebar to share but a lot of keys cleverly placed so your
>> thumbs can easily reach them.
Ole> I've bought an Ergo Elan too, and I agree with you. They are much
Ole> more friendly towards the little fingers because of the thumb
Ole> keys. And the curved keys make for faster typing, plus it is much
Ole> easier reaching the number row. I can actually touch type numbers
Ole> now, something I never learned with a normal keyboard.
I'll toss in my vote for Kinesis too. (Although I was cheap and bought
their Classic -- I don't have any need for reprogramming the keys: X
does all the reprogramming that I need.)
I also have their triple-action footswitch (which, BTW, can work with
any PS/2-stile keyboard, if you don't want to get their keyboard). It
has three pedals that you can program to different actions. By default,
the pedals are programmed to ctrl, shift, and alt, which is just fine
for Emacs.
The footswitch is a bit pricey too, though, and if you can get either
the footswitch or the keyboard, I would pick the keyboard.
- --
Hubert Chan <hack...@geek.com> - http://www.geocities.com/hubertchan/
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Kathryn Huxtable
> Ole Laursen <ol...@hardworking.dk> writes:
> >
> > I've bought an Ergo Elan too, [snip]
> > However, the Kinesis keyboards [snip]
>
> I've heard it said that emacs needs a keyboard with foot pedals.
>
> The comment usually has a :-) after it, but if people can learn Dvorak,
> why not get the feet moving?
Dvorak took me about two weeks to learn and about six weeks to become
proficient. I wouldn't go back for anything. But I have the feeling
that Dvorak is optimized for English text. People who normally type
in other languages may not benefit.
And any English word containing "q" is a bear in Dvorak, because "q"
is where the "x" is on QWERTY and all the vowels are on the left hand
home row. So since almost all English words containing "q" have "u"
after the "q" ("u" is where "f" is in QWERTY) followed by another
vowel, it's rather nasty. The sequence of QWERTY keys I have to type
to get the word "quote" is "xfskd", for example.
If I had designed the Dvorak keyboard, I think I would have put "e"
where "f" is instead of where "d" is in QWERTY.
BTW, I'm just using a classic Microsoft natural keyboard. I've been
thinking about moving up to something with separate pieces for the
hands. The conversation here has been useful to me.
And don't get me wrong. I still like Dvorak better than QWERTY. It
has its own set of problems, but they are fewer in my opinion than
those of QWERTY. And having used QWERTY for 25 years prior to learing
Dvorak about four years ago, I can still use it if I have to, but I'm
pretty slow.
-K
Luis Fernandes
Speaking of wrist braces...(I haven't gotten to that stage, yet)
James Gosling was in Toronto a couple of years back to do a Java
presentation and wore a wrist brace the whole time even though we was
just doing a (click-the-mouse) PPT slide presentation.
Colin Marquardt
> Here are some links put together by a student who had to stop using
> computer keyboards and playing the piano for over a year:
See also
http://666.com/ben/chronic-pain/index.htm
http://666.com/ben/alternative-input.html
Colin
Ole Laursen
> their Classic -- I don't have any need for reprogramming the keys: X
> does all the reprogramming that I need.)
IIRC, I would have done so too, but I need a Danish layout with 'זרו'...
> The footswitch is a bit pricey too, though, and if you can get either
> the footswitch or the keyboard, I would pick the keyboard.
I have a double action footswitch, but I don't use it much. Perhaps
part of the problem is that I usually don't sit straight up-down but
half-sit-half-lie in a more comfortable position when I'm home. So my
feet aren't really near the pedal (and I change the position quite
frequently so moving the pedal isn't an option).
Besides, without shoes on my toes starts hurting after a while when I
press the small switch thingies. But that might also be because I use
the forte pedal a lot in the Chopin pieces I'm playing for the time
being. :-)
However, using one's feet to control Emacs does have some potential.
It surely makes for fast editing if you're really up to it. I
especially like the 'footswitch-x long-lisp-command-name' combination
which can be typed without moving one's hands at all.
Martin Guertler
Michael J Downes
> anybody thought about that ;-) ?
Yes, I tried it with the Kinesis keyboard about a year ago. Using foot
pedals might work for you if you think you will be able to
*always keep your feet on the pedals*.
Since I move my feet frequently while I work I had a lot of trouble
finding the foot pedal whenever I needed it. Some modified approach
might be more workable, e.g., a button device that attaches to your shoe
somehow, so it never strays away from your foot. But it would
presumably need to be attached in a way that would not be activated by
normal walking motion ... Wait, I have it! It should be activated by
clicking your heels together, like Dorothy's ruby slippers, and saying
"There's no place like home ... there's no place like home ..."
I am using a Maltron keyboard now, even though it's more expensive:
---I was sorely disappointed in the programmability features of the
Kinesis that I tried. You can't reprogram all the keys, only a limited
subset. (Imagine a keyboard where you could reprogram all the F-keys,
but you couldn't even swap the control and the caps lock keys. Woo hoo!?
The Kinesis was slightly better than that, but not much as far as my
purposes were concerned.)
---The lack of a separate numeric keypad on the Kinesis keyboard
requires extra keystrokes to use kp keys. The overhead is bearable if
most of the time you do either all keypad entry or all normal keyboard
entry, but not if you use the kp keys sporadically, intermixed with
regular input. Which I do because I rebind a lot of the kp keys in Emacs
to give single-key alternatives for some frequently used multi-key
sequences.
(The ergonomic feel of the Kinesis keyboard was awfully nice, though, and
I was reluctant to give it up in spite of everything else.)
Regards, M J Downes
Scott Lanning
> anybody thought about that ;-) ?
Sorry, I need the pedals for perl's $ and @ keys.
Michael Slass
>anybody thought about that ;-) ?
There was a post on comp.emacs within the last two years that showed a
whole lisp package (written by a professor) for using emacs with
several pedals, and few keystrokes. I think it was called
handsfree.el, but I'm not having luck finding it.
I'll repost if I turn it up.
--
Mike
Michael Slass
Found it.
Search groups.google.com for this message ID:
rvu7l43...@adnah.sanger.ac.uk
--
Mike
Elf Sternberg
Matt Garman <gar...@uiuc.edu> writes:
>In particular, one of my CS professors pointed out something that I
>had never considered before: keyboarding injuries. Given that I'll
>most likely be spending the next 40 years or so interfacing with the
>keyboard and mouse, I want to minimize my risk of repetetive stress
>injuries (e.g. carpel tunnel syndrome).
What you basically want to do is get yourself a decent keyboard
and learn how to type. Most people who come to the keyboard from the
programming world never take a typing course and never master the skills
that it takes to type correctly, such as keeping your wrists straight
and keeping your fingers properly bent. Another trick you might
consider is switching to a Dvorak keyboard. I did that a few years ago
and it was worth it; it didn't increase my typing speed, but the reduced
travel of my fingers when I typed text also reduced the amount of motion
my wrists suffered.
Elf
--
Elf M. Sternberg, Immanentizing the Eschaton since 1988
http://www.drizzle.com/~elf/ (under construction)
Your rage is useless. Your rage will be packaged, branded
and sold back to you as entertainment. Get used to it.