a key system to replace gnu emacs's 1000 default keybindings

Xah Lee

unread,

May 22, 2012, 3:18:41 PM5/22/12

to

haha, yes the subject line is right.

my first voice blog.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sXu4pf67i8

〈The Roadmap to Completely Replace Emacs's Key System〉
http://xahlee.org/emacs/emacs_keybinding_redesign.html

Xah

B. T. Raven

unread,

May 25, 2012, 9:22:30 AM5/25/12

to

Die Tue May 22 2012 14:18:41 GMT-0500 (Central Daylight Time) Xah Lee
<xah...@gmail.com> scripsit:

Here's a new thing i've learned. Normally, it's a good advice to press
combination keys using both hands. That is, suppose you want to press
【Ctrl+x】. You should use right hand to hold right Ctrl and left hand
to press x. But if you are a touch typer and leave your hand in standard
position, so you press the x with 4th finger. That'll cause a major
problem if done often.
"

This was obvious from the start. You shouldn't have switched to CUA.
It's important that additional mod keys (stacked into one keychord) are
only marginally more difficult than fewer mod keys. What's need is new
keyboard hardware layout to truly optimize for Emacs. With all mod keys
below the row from sem to Z (Dvorak) split backspace-space bar under
that row with super, meta(alt), and ctl farthest inboard, symmetrical
left and right.

"
but anyhow, in past week's thinking, i came up with the thought of
eliminating all combination keys. I've been on this road in recent
years, but this week i made a more systematic approach, and added 30 or
so sequential keys with the F key. By my analysis, i think sequential
keys are much superior than key combos in many ways. Health,
memorization, grouping... and i think even faster to operate on the long
run on average. Here's a draft of reasons:
"

If you are that drastic you might as well go whole hog and redesign the
Emacs ui for gaming keyboards with n-key rollover. That would make room
for comfortably adding trillions of new bindings.

I am convinced that whatever keyboard customizations can't be
accomplished with dvorak layout, xmodmap (or Keytweak), will need a new
hardware device. I think that ergonomic science is far enough advanced
that the mouse can be done away with for most applications (even Autocad
and Photoshop).

Besides dvorak layout and keytweak rearrangement in order to locate the
most used modkeys closest to the (split) backspace-spacebar, the only
changes I've made to default bindings are these:

;; Single char cursor movement on Dvorak layout
(global-set-key [(meta h)] 'backward-char-nomark)
(global-set-key [(meta n)] 'forward-char-nomark)
(global-set-key [(meta c)] 'previous-line-nomark)
(global-set-key [(meta t)] 'next-line-nomark)
(global-set-key [(meta H)] 'mark-paragraph) ;; upcased default bindings
(global-set-key [(meta N)] 'next-buffer)
(global-set-key [(meta C)] 'capitalize-word)
(global-set-key [(meta T)] 'transpose-words)

shift-backspace and shift-space were at one time assigned to ( and )
[much easier than shift-9 and shift-10) but shift-space now resolves to
space, I know not why.

btw, this is all on w32 ver. 23.3

Ed

Xah Lee

unread,

May 25, 2012, 1:37:37 PM5/25/12

to

xah wrote:
> my first voice blog.

> 〈The Roadmap to Completely Replace Emacs's Key System〉
> http://xahlee.org/emacs/emacs_keybinding_redesign.html

Xah wrote:
«Here's a new thing i've learned. Normally, it's a good advice to

press combination keys using both hands. That is, suppose you want to
press【Ctrl+x】. You should use right hand to hold right Ctrl and left
hand to press x. But if you are a touch typer and leave your hand in
standard position, so you press the x with 4th finger. That'll cause a

major problem if done often.»

On May 25, 6:22 am, "B. T. Raven" <btra...@nihilo.net> wrote:
«This was obvious from the start. You shouldn't have switched to CUA.»

note that, 【Ctrl+x】 is used by emacs more heavily than CUA's cut. So,
it's even worse.

Raven wrote:
«If you are that drastic you might as well go whole hog and redesign

the Emacs ui for gaming keyboards with n-key rollover. That would make

room for comfortably adding trillions of new bindings.»

yeah a hardware keyboard is certainly much better.

the best i can think of are:

μTron ($570)
http://xahlee.org/kbd/uTRON_keyboard.html

“Truly Ergonomic” ($200)
http://xahlee.org/kbd/Truly_Ergonomic_keyboard.html

Kinesis (≈$250)
http://xahlee.org/emacs/keyboard_Kinesis.html

my analysis of their design, for my personal taste, starting with
best, are: μTron, TE, Kinesis.

What's your fav?

Raven wrote:
«… I think that ergonomic science is far enough advanced that the

mouse can be done away with for most applications (even Autocad and

Photoshop).»

i don't think this is true. e.g. just look at browser. There is
absolutely no way keyboard can beat Mouse. Unless, you are considering
other fancy devices other than traditional keyboard. (e.g. touch-pad,
pen devices, touch screen, etc.)

Raven wrote:
«

Besides dvorak layout and keytweak rearrangement in order to locate
the most used modkeys closest to the (split) backspace-spacebar, the
only changes I've made to default bindings are these:

;; Single char cursor movement on Dvorak layout
(global-set-key [(meta h)] 'backward-char-nomark)
(global-set-key [(meta n)] 'forward-char-nomark)
(global-set-key [(meta c)] 'previous-line-nomark)
(global-set-key [(meta t)] 'next-line-nomark)
(global-set-key [(meta H)] 'mark-paragraph) ;; upcased default
bindings
(global-set-key [(meta N)] 'next-buffer)
(global-set-key [(meta C)] 'capitalize-word)
(global-set-key [(meta T)] 'transpose-words)

shift-backspace and shift-space were at one time assigned to ( and )
[much easier than shift-9 and shift-10) but shift-space now resolves
to
space, I know not why.

»

Nice. Weren't you using ergoemacs keybinding before? didn't like other
keys?

Xah

Thad Floryan

unread,

May 25, 2012, 6:24:16 PM5/25/12

to

On 5/25/2012 10:37 AM, Xah Lee wrote:
> xah wrote:
>> my first voice blog.
>> 〈The Roadmap to Completely Replace Emacs's Key System〉
>> http://xahlee.org/emacs/emacs_keybinding_redesign.html
>
> Xah wrote:
> «Here's a new thing i've learned. Normally, it's a good advice to
> press combination keys using both hands. That is, suppose you want to
> press【Ctrl+x】. You should use right hand to hold right Ctrl and left
> hand to press x. But if you are a touch typer and leave your hand in
> standard position, so you press the x with 4th finger. That'll cause a
> major problem if done often.»

> [...]

Which is why sane people remap [Caps Lock] to be another [Ctrl].

For Emacs on Windows [Win2K-SP4, WinXP-SP3, Vista-SP2, Win7-SP1]:

Details:

<http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/bb897578.aspx>

Program:

<http://download.sysinternals.com/Files/Ctrl2Cap.zip>

For *BSD, Linux, Solaris and UNIX systems, use xkeycaps to create an
input file for xmodmap [xmodmap is part of all X distributions]:

xkeycaps: <http://www.jwz.org/xkeycaps/>

or use the user preferences [depending on the distro or desktop] to
make the [Caps Lock] be another [Ctrl].

Xah Lee

unread,

May 25, 2012, 6:47:57 PM5/25/12

to

Thad Floryan, is it? did i get ur name right?

Perhaps you'd be interested in reading my one hundred and twenty three
essays about why you shouldn't do that?

〈Computer Keyboards, Layouts, Hotkeys, Macros, RSI ⌨〉
http://xahlee.org/Periodic_dosage_dir/keyboarding.html

Xah

Xah Lee

unread,

May 25, 2012, 7:08:40 PM5/25/12

to

On May 25, 3:24 pm, Thad Floryan <t...@thadlabs.com> wrote:

here's few relevant articles

〈Why Emacs's Keyboard Shortcuts are Painful〉
http://xahlee.org/emacs/emacs_kb_shortcuts_pain.html

〈How to Avoid the Emacs Pinky Problem〉
http://xahlee.org/emacs/emacs_pinky.html

〈Emacs: Why You Should Not Swap {Caps Lock, Control} Keys〉
http://xahlee.org/emacs/swap_CapsLock_Ctrl.html

〈Bad Advices from Programers about Typing and Keyboard (RSI)〉
http://xahlee.org/kbd/programer_keyboarding_advice.html

Xah

Thad Floryan

unread,

May 25, 2012, 7:24:35 PM5/25/12

to

On 5/25/2012 3:24 PM, Thad Floryan wrote:
> [...]
> Which is why sane people remap [Caps Lock] to be another [Ctrl].
>
> For Emacs on Windows [Win2K-SP4, WinXP-SP3, Vista-SP2, Win7-SP1]:
>
> Details:
>
> <http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/bb897578.aspx>
>
> Program:
>
> <http://download.sysinternals.com/Files/Ctrl2Cap.zip>
>
> For *BSD, Linux, Solaris and UNIX systems, use xkeycaps to create an
> input file for xmodmap [xmodmap is part of all X distributions]:
>
> xkeycaps: <http://www.jwz.org/xkeycaps/>
>
> or use the user preferences [depending on the distro or desktop] to
> make the [Caps Lock] be another [Ctrl].

Another "trick" for Windows systems is to put Emacs in the context
menu -- when right-clicking a file, Emacs will appear in the list as
a choice. Here's the identical method using regedit on all Windows:

<http://thadlabs.com/PIX/Emacs_regedit_Win2K.jpg>
<http://thadlabs.com/PIX/Emacs_regedit_WinXP.jpg>
<http://thadlabs.com/PIX/Emacs_regedit_Vista.jpg>
<http://thadlabs.com/PIX/Emacs_regedit_Win7.jpg>

Thad Floryan

unread,

May 25, 2012, 7:32:21 PM5/25/12

to

On 5/25/2012 3:47 PM, Xah Lee wrote:
> [...]

> Perhaps you'd be interested in reading my one hundred and twenty three
> essays about why you shouldn't do that?
>
> 〈Computer Keyboards, Layouts, Hotkeys, Macros, RSI ⌨〉
> http://xahlee.org/Periodic_dosage_dir/keyboarding.html

Absolutely not. Your opinions about keyboards are only shared by
an apparent minority of one: yourself.

Every computer keyboard I've used since the mid-1960s has had the
[Ctrl] key to the left of [A]. I use keyboards 12-16 hours a day
and have NEVER had any RSI or other problems and I've "typed" over
millions of lines of code over a 50 year span (I'm now retired but
I still develop and write a *LOT* of code (programs, scripts, HTML,
etc.)).

My current keyboard can be seen here:

<http://thadlabs.com/PIX/Thad_desk.jpg>
and
<http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/en104bl.html>

If you can't accept that, go pound some sand. :-)

Thad Floryan

unread,

May 25, 2012, 7:55:38 PM5/25/12

to

On 5/25/2012 3:47 PM, Xah Lee wrote:
> [...]

> Perhaps you'd be interested in reading my one hundred and twenty three
> essays about why you shouldn't do that?
>
> 〈Computer Keyboards, Layouts, Hotkeys, Macros, RSI ⌨〉
> http://xahlee.org/Periodic_dosage_dir/keyboarding.html

Bigos

unread,

May 26, 2012, 4:48:02 AM5/26/12

to

My Emacs key binding wish list:

C-p and C-f

why can't we have:
C-m for forwad
and
C-j for previous

it would go so nicely with C-b and C-n that it could be feasible
replacement for cursor keys.

I think key location in this case would be better than having to jump
all over the keybord.

Bigos

unread,

May 26, 2012, 5:31:03 AM5/26/12

to

I'll attach those binding to windows keys and see how it works

s stands for Windows or super key:
s-b previous char
s-m next char

s-j previous line
s-n next line

B. T. Raven

unread,

May 26, 2012, 8:38:44 AM5/26/12

to

Die Fri May 25 2012 12:37:37 GMT-0500 (Central Daylight Time) Xah Lee
<xah...@gmail.com> scripsit:

>

I don't have any. I need someone from geekhack to make me one based
loosely on the symbolics space cadet. The Kinesis Advantage seems to
have the most impressive videoclips of speed typing but theres too much
unused real estate on it for my tastes. Does anyone here use it and, if
so, what have the keys been reprogrammed to?

No, I never used ergoemacs. I read a few of the articles but disagreed
with most of them. I have a higher opinion of RMS's mnemonics than you
do. However, the idea of getting real world statistics on emacs typing
behavior via a keylogger is a good one.

Ed

>
> Xah

Xah Lee

unread,

May 26, 2012, 9:08:22 AM5/26/12

to

On May 25, 4:55 pm, Thad Floryan <t...@thadlabs.com> wrote:
> Which brings up the question: WHY are you constantly ignoring all the
> keyboard and posture studies of 100s of universities and [USA] state
> agencies empowered with assuring no fatigue and no RSI by their students
> and employees? The key word is ERGONOMICS.

when did you stop beating your wife?

Xah

Xah Lee

unread,

May 26, 2012, 9:45:48 AM5/26/12

to

Xah wrote:
> > the best i can think of are:
>
> > μTron ($570)
> > http://xahlee.org/kbd/uTRON_keyboard.html
>
> > “Truly Ergonomic” ($200)
> > http://xahlee.org/kbd/Truly_Ergonomic_keyboard.html
>
> > Kinesis (≈$250)
> > http://xahlee.org/emacs/keyboard_Kinesis.html
>
> > my analysis of their design, for my personal taste, starting with
> > best, are: μTron, TE, Kinesis.
>
> > What's your fav?
>

> I don't have any. I need someone from geekhack to make me one based
> loosely on the symbolics space cadet.

people who have attachment to lisp machine keyboards are vintage
lovers. They love the qualities associated with vintage, history, not
functional fitness. Like, some people love cars from 1950s, spend
millions to buy them, even though functionally they are worse than
cheap cars made today. Likewise, functionally speaking, the lisp
machine keyboards are functionally inferior to $10 brandless PC
keyboard, even for the purpose of coding lisp in emacs.

i heard that you can still buy one, btw.

〈Space-cadet Keyboard and Other Lisp Keyboards〉
http://xahlee.org/kbd/lisp_keyboards.html

> The Kinesis Advantage seems to
> have the most impressive videoclips of speed typing but theres too much
> unused real estate on it for my tastes. Does anyone here use it and, if
> so, what have the keys been reprogrammed to?

i haven't heard of Kinesis known for speed typing. Any links?

note that Kinesis is actually smaller than standard PC keyboard,
despite the fact that it has big whitespace in the middle.

> No, I never used ergoemacs. I read a few of the articles but disagreed
> with most of them.

yes you use a keybinding for cursor movement that's in ErgoEmacs.

> I have a higher opinion of RMS's mnemonics than you
> do.

for a moment i thought you mean you like RMS's keyboarding ideas
betten than mine. Perhaps maybe that is what you meant. In anycase,
care to elaborate?

> However, the idea of getting real world statistics on emacs typing
> behavior via a keylogger is a good one.

thank you. That's the gist of ErgoEmacs.

btw, am not sure that RMS designed the basic keys for emacs.

The following is a quote from Daniel Weinreb , 2008-06-01, on
comp.emacs newsgroup. Source groups.google.com.

That's true. At the time Guy Steele put together the Emacs default
key mappings, many people in the target user community (about 20
people at MIT!) were already using these key bindings. It would have
been hard to get the new Emacs bindings accepted by the community if
they differed for such basic commands. As you point out, anyone using
Emacs can very easily change this based on their own ergonomic
preferences.

cited in

〈Why Emacs's Keyboard Shortcuts are Painful〉
http://xahlee.org/emacs/emacs_kb_shortcuts_pain.html

Xah

Mark Skilbeck

unread,

May 26, 2012, 10:13:45 AM5/26/12

to Xah Lee, help-gn...@gnu.org

Um... what?

--
- mgsk.

if all you young men / were fish in the water
how many young girls / would undress and dive after

Dan Espen

unread,

May 26, 2012, 11:57:43 AM5/26/12

to

Perhaps you should read more carefully.

Thad remapped Caps Lock to ANOTHER Ctrl.
He didn't SWAP anything.

When I want all uppercase,
Emacs is fully capable of uppercasing as much typing as I need.

I don't need or want a Caps Lock key anywhere on my keyboard.

You'll need to create another write up that explains why
we can't live without CAPS LOCK.

--
Dan Espen

Xah Lee

unread,

May 26, 2012, 12:45:02 PM5/26/12

to

On May 26, 8:57 am, Dan Espen <des...@verizon.net> wrote:
> Perhaps you should read more carefully.
>
> Thad remapped Caps Lock to ANOTHER Ctrl.
> He didn't SWAP anything.

that doesn't matter. Those who use capslock for Ctrl basically only
use that single key for Ctrl.

〈Emacs: Why You Should Not Swap {Caps Lock, Control} Keys〉
http://xahlee.org/emacs/swap_CapsLock_Ctrl.html

if you consider Capslock key useless, you can given it another
function. I've been using it as a modifier to insert unicode (e.g. APL
keyboard), or as emacs's M-x. Currently, it does emacs's mark. Still
experimental.

> When I want all uppercase,
> Emacs is fully capable of uppercasing as much typing as I need.

vast majority of people are not using emacs.

> I don't need or want a Caps Lock key anywhere on my keyboard.
>
> You'll need to create another write up that explains why
> we can't live without CAPS LOCK.

Thanks for asking.

I think the Caplock key should be eliminated, together with {Pause/
Break, Insert}. Though other problems of standard PC keyboard are more
critical for change. Detail:

〈Keyboard Hardware Design Flaws〉
http://xahlee.org/emacs/keyboard_problems.html

Xah

Dan Espen

unread,

May 26, 2012, 3:10:07 PM5/26/12

to

Sounds like we all agree then, ban the CAPS LOCK key.

Pause works well for me. (I toggle pause on the music player.)
Break is my default undo key. (Seems logical.)
Insert? Toggle overwrite mode seems useful enough.

--
Dan Espen

Chris F.A. Johnson

unread,

May 26, 2012, 3:02:51 PM5/26/12

to

On 2012-05-26, Xah Lee wrote:
> On May 26, 8:57 am, Dan Espen <des...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> Perhaps you should read more carefully.
>>
>> Thad remapped Caps Lock to ANOTHER Ctrl.
>> He didn't SWAP anything.
>
> that doesn't matter. Those who use capslock for Ctrl basically only
> use that single key for Ctrl.

Not true. I have capslock mapped to control, but I hardly ever use
it; the only reason for doing it is to prevent turning capslock on
accidentally.

--
Chris F.A. Johnson, <http://cfajohnson.com>
Author:
Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux Shell (2009, Apress)
Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)

Xah Lee

unread,

May 26, 2012, 6:58:04 PM5/26/12

to

Dan Espen wrote:
«Perhaps you should read more carefully. Thad remapped Caps Lock to

ANOTHER Ctrl. He didn't SWAP anything.»

Xah wrote:
«that doesn't matter. Those who use capslock for Ctrl basically only
use that single key for Ctrl.»

Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
«Not true. I have capslock mapped to control, but I hardly ever use

it; the only reason for doing it is to prevent turning capslock on

accidentally.»

So, you don't use Capslock for Ctrl, therefore i was right.

Welcome to the thread, LOL.

------------------------------

Now i'll spoil our nice chat by adding more info...

The Capslock position for Ctrl is actually not bad. Excellent design
in fact. For example, of the 3 keyboard designs i admire, one of them
is “Truly Ergonomic” (TE). See:

〈Ergonomic Keyboards Gallery〉
http://xahlee.org/emacs/ergonomic_keyboards.html

on TE, it actually put Shift key on the capslock position, on both
sides of the keyboard! What a fantastic, great, thoughtful, design.

Question: Why are you against the Capslock position then?
Answer: it's because the tech-geeking fuckheads.

There are certain class of programers, a subculture, who pride
themselves around the term hacker. These people, collectively loosely
have certain way or habit and thought pattern, and a subset of them
are loud-mouthers on some issues (such as our Thad Floryan fellow
here, who, every time would sting me about Capslock/Ctrl switch when i
write about keyboard. Which, is perfectly fine, just don't blame me
for my equally reasonable responses.)

The hacker types (for lack of better term), often insists on certain
geek ways that are often scientifically baseless and harmful. For
example, the advice to swap Ctrl/Capslock, the cry against GUI, the
cry against mouse, the numerous unix slogans, the adoration of emacs,
the slogan about laziness (perl), the slogan about lambda knight or
adoration of lisp as god lang, usually given as dogma. Motherfucking
fuckheads. For example, one slogan “Be conservative in what you send;
be liberal in what you accept.” which damaged the web for 2 decade.

But what's technically wrong with swapping capslock with ctrl?

Here's the deal. On a newly designed keyboard such as that TE, the
position to the left of A is a top valued position. Also, notice that
TE keyboard is symmetric, fixing one of the major problem of
traditional keyboard. So, Capslock or Shift are on the right side at
the same place too. (similar to Enter key, but without extra key
column in between)

If you are designing a new keyboard, it's great. But if you are
creating workaround over standard PC keyboard, then the advice of
swapping Capslock/Ctrl is a entire new story. For example, you could
swap Ctrl/Alt. The Alt is used by thumb, and available on both sides.
That is immediately superior workaround on most keyboards (except
laptops). There are many issues, alternatives, i've analyzed in detail
in my article and i won't repeat here.

But the thing about the motherfucking techgeekers, such as our Thad
Floryan fellow here, is that they often blindly insists on hackerdom
dogma.

Sure, on many situations, swapping Capslock/Ctrl is a perfect
solution. For example, on laptops. On laptops, keys are tiny,
especially the Alt key, and usually they are not available no right
side. The Capslock key on laptop is a big key. It's really a great
solution. But you see, tech geekers are not concerned about this.
Thad, never give the qualifications about swapping capslock/ctrl.
Instead, they typically go like this: “I type for decades, never had
problem, you should swap Capslock/Ctrl, it's how keyboard should be,
look at Sun Micro keyboards, and all the keyboard of 1920s. God
designed that way. And look at vi keyboard, h j k l. emacs and vi. and
IBM Model M! God says. Therefore you should. KISS.”

〈Computing Culture: What's Hacker?〉
http://xahlee.org/Netiquette_dir/whats_hacker.html

〈What is a Tech Geeker?〉
http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/writ/tech_geeker.html

〈HTML5 Doctype, Validation, X-UA-Compatible, and Why Do I Hate
Hackers〉
http://xahlee.org/js/html5_validation_doctype.html

〈Are You Intelligent Enough to Understand HTML5?〉
http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/writ/html5_vs_intelligence.html

〈The Idiocy of Hacker Keyboards〉
http://xahlee.org/emacs/keyboards_hacker_idiocy.html

〈GUI Makes People Dumb?〉
http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/writ/gui_and_dumbness.html

〈Paul Graham's Infatuation with the Concept of Hacker〉
http://xahlee.org/comp/Paul_Graham_language_design.html

Xah

Thad Floryan

unread,

May 26, 2012, 7:11:56 PM5/26/12

to

Again, nearly everything you write in this group is bogus, false and
some kind of fantasy constructions of a mixed-up mind fraught with
vulgarities as a casual perusal of comp.emacs' archives will reveal
to anyone.

When your writings conflicts with my personal experiences (which is
nearly always) then it's clear you have NO credibility and ALL of your
writings can be summarily dismissed. It's as simple as that.

Thad Floryan

unread,

May 26, 2012, 7:30:04 PM5/26/12

to

On 5/26/2012 9:45 AM, Xah Lee wrote:
> On May 26, 8:57 am, Dan Espen <des...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> Perhaps you should read more carefully.
>>
>> Thad remapped Caps Lock to ANOTHER Ctrl.
>> He didn't SWAP anything.
>
> that doesn't matter. Those who use capslock for Ctrl basically only
> use that single key for Ctrl.

And? Given how ubiquitous a control key is within Emacs, it should
be easy to type, not requiring one to bend one's finger down to where
a [Ctrl] key is located beneath the left shift key on PC keyboards.

When I started using computers in the early 1960s, we had to use cards.

Circa 1965 I was using a TTY33ASR and it's control key was to the left
of [A]. Several editors I was using back then (10 years before Emacs
existed) used the control key extensively to that the editor was truly
a WYSIWYG (What You See Is What You Get).

My next keyboard/terminal was a Datapoint 3300 which was essentially
a "glass teletype" with the exact same keyboard layout at the TTY33ASR
with the [Ctrl] to the left of [A]. That Datapoint 3300 was followed
by a Datamedia DT80 (a VT100 clone) whose [Ctrl] was also to the left
of [A].

All the AT&T and Sun computers I owned and used since then have had the
[Ctrl] to the left of [A] and all keyboards since then I've mapped the
[Caps Lock] to be another control key.

I've been using Emacs since 1975 (getting my first copy from the Pentagon,
a customer of mine at the time) and subsequent copies from MIT and RMS
including this copy of the Emacs manual that RMS handed me which is the
oldest one I found in my archives and I scanned years ago:

<http://thadlabs.com/FILES/Emacs-150_1980.09.05.pdf>

I don't know what (apparent) misshapen hand you have, but having the
[Ctrl] to the left of [A] is comfortable and "natural" to me since
control characters are ubiquitous within Emacs and Bash.

> [...]

> if you consider Capslock key useless, you can given it another
> function.

Precisely. Making the [Caps Lock] another [Ctrl] makes perfect
sense for anyone using Emacs and/or Bash.

Thad Floryan

unread,

May 26, 2012, 7:36:11 PM5/26/12

to

On 5/26/2012 4:30 PM, Thad Floryan wrote:
> [...]

> Circa 1965 I was using a TTY33ASR and it's control key was to the left

> [...]

Typos while eating a late lunch: above S/B "... its control key ...". :-)

Xah Lee

unread,

May 26, 2012, 7:42:26 PM5/26/12

to

this coming from a guy who insists that IBM Model M keyboard is more
ergonomic than Microsoft Natural keyboard, Kinesis?

lol. guys, look, there's a dinosaur who insists he's still alive!

you know? in ≈2004, a guy came to me and actually paid me to help him
publish his angle-trisection findings. They are always old, retired
people.

Xah

Thad Floryan

unread,

May 26, 2012, 7:52:18 PM5/26/12

to

On 5/26/2012 4:30 PM, Thad Floryan wrote:
> [...]

> Precisely. Making the [Caps Lock] another [Ctrl] makes perfect
> sense for anyone using Emacs and/or Bash.

I want to additionally qualify the above: "... Emacs and/or Bash
and types rapidly."

I wear out junk keyboards from Dell, HP/Compaq, etc. in less than
3 months because I type fast, hard and for long periods of time.

Good keyboards such as those on the Datapoint 3300, Datamedia DT/80,
AT&T and Sun last seemingly forever, and my current keyboard:

<http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/en104bl.html>

has survived 4 years now (since June 8, 2008) and shows no signs of
any deterioration.

And FWIW, I've been a touch typist since 1952 using a refurbished
IBM electric typewriter that an uncle who worked for IBM gave me;
that's 60 years now. :-)

Dan Espen

unread,

May 26, 2012, 8:21:37 PM5/26/12

to

Xah Lee <xah...@gmail.com> writes:
> Question: Why are you against the Capslock position then?

> Answer: it's because the tech-geeking f*******s.

Geez Xah, here we were having a civil exchange and your
tourettes kicked in. Get control of yourself.

--
Dan Espen

John Bokma

unread,

May 26, 2012, 9:52:49 PM5/26/12

to

Thad Floryan <th...@thadlabs.com> writes:

> Again, nearly everything you write in this group is bogus, false and
> some kind of fantasy constructions of a mixed-up mind fraught with
> vulgarities as a casual perusal of comp.emacs' archives will reveal
> to anyone.

You forgot to mention that most if not all his post are nothing but
self-promotion. At least he has the decency here to crosspost only to
two groups. Xah is a little prick and nothing you'll write will change
that.

--
John Bokma j3b

Blog: http://johnbokma.com/ Perl Consultancy: http://castleamber.com/
Perl for books: http://johnbokma.com/perl/help-in-exchange-for-books.html

Xah Lee

unread,

May 27, 2012, 5:01:26 AM5/27/12

to

Dear Thad Floryan,

so, i read your long response.

in summery, if i may:

Thad Floryan wrote:
> Circa 1965 I was using a TTY33ASR and it's control key was to the left

> …

> My next keyboard/terminal was a Datapoint 3300 which was essentially

> …

> I've been using Emacs since 1975 (getting my first copy from the Pentagon,

but, what is your point? Sure, you are a dinosaur, i'm sold on that.
But if we are still having a reasonable debate, have you addressed any
criticism i made about those who claim swapping Capslock/Ctrl is a
good thing?

Xah

Xah Lee

unread,

May 27, 2012, 4:59:51 AM5/27/12

to

Lol. Learned something today:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourette_syndrome

Thanks for that.

Now, about use of profanities... shall i post a collection of essays
i've written regarding that? You know? effect of profanity in human
relations, the social psychology, etiquette in anthropology, etiquette
in ethology, famous writers in history who litter their works with
profanity, linguistic history of vulgarities, etymology of the word
vulgar, eating pussy by Shakespeare, etc. I've written quite a lot
about these too.

Shall me?

your encouragement is appreciated. Thank you.

Xah

Joe Corneli

unread,

May 27, 2012, 9:50:04 AM5/27/12

to Xah Lee, help-gn...@gnu.org

On Sun, May 27, 2012 at 12:42 AM, Xah Lee <xah...@gmail.com> wrote:
> this coming from a guy who insists that IBM Model M keyboard is more
> ergonomic than Microsoft Natural keyboard, Kinesis?

There's an interesting article by Aaron Iba (main author of Etherpad)
http://aaroniba.net/articles/tmp/how-i-cured-my-rsi-pain.html
who uses a "Mind Body" approach to curing RSI. He says:

"I can type as much as I want, in whatever unergonomic position I
want, on any keyboard, without any pain."

He also says that his approach "sounds ridiculous to most people."

Now, I personally a customized kinesis board
http://stumpwm.svkt.org/cgi-bin/ratpoison.pl/jcorneli-kbd
and a clever rearrangement scheme on laptops (number row replaced with
modifiers).

I'm very happy with this, but I think Aaron Iba's essay (and the book
he cites) are interesting anyway, and probably relevant to various
kinds of pain/distraction.

Óscar Fuentes

unread,

May 27, 2012, 10:18:52 AM5/27/12

to help-gn...@gnu.org

"B. T. Raven" <btr...@nihilo.net> writes:

> I don't have any. I need someone from geekhack to make me one based
> loosely on the symbolics space cadet. The Kinesis Advantage seems to
> have the most impressive videoclips of speed typing but theres too much
> unused real estate on it for my tastes.

The Kinesis Advantage keyboard is narrower than an standard PC keyboard
actually. Some people sticks a touchpad on the middle gap.

And for speed typing, one thing to consider is that the Kinesis makes
you a touch typist (and a fast one) without you noticing. It just
happens. You need some training, though. Maybe two or three hours with
the exercises that comes with the keyboard, and then proceed mindfully
until your muscle memory adapts.

> Does anyone here use it and, if
> so, what have the keys been reprogrammed to?

On the left side, swapped Ctrl <-> BackSpace and Alt <-> Delete. This
puts Ctrl and Meta right below your left thumb, which makes Emacs' C-
and M- combinations much more convenient.

The rest of my customizations are related to my coding style, but in any
case a good idea is to move CapsLock away (to `Esc', for instance) and
use it for something sensible.

Disclaimer: I'm not in any way affiliated to Kinesis.

[snip]

Nix

unread,

May 30, 2012, 12:27:24 PM5/30/12

to

On 26 May 2012, Dan Espen uttered the following:

> You'll need to create another write up that explains why
> we can't live without CAPS LOCK.

I used to think caps-lock was useless too, until I learned a bit of
formal touch typing, when it all came clear.

The caps-lock key is intended to reduce chording when typing multiple
capitalized letters at once (which used to be common in headings, and is
now common in e.g. macro names in C). Chording two keys with one hand is
very unpleasant and a significant cause of RSI, so formal touch typing
teaches that you should always use the opposite hand to the hit chording
keys, e.g. right shift and left F, but left shift and right L. (This is
why there are two shift, ctrl keys, and so on, on opposite sides of
keyboards). However, when typing runs of capital letters this requires
frequent flipping of the shift-holding hand from side to side, or
violation of this rule.

Thus, one hits caps lock *once*, types the run of capitalized keys, then
hits it again, thus avoiding both single-hand chording and an annoying
constant flip of the chording hand.

--
NULL && (void)

Daimrod

unread,

May 30, 2012, 12:37:25 PM5/30/12

to

Are you serious? Just compare how many times you need to hit CAPS LOCK
and how many times you need to hit Control with Emacs.

Moreover, there is upcase-region bound to C-x C-u.

rusi

unread,

May 30, 2012, 1:54:02 PM5/30/12

to

On May 30, 9:37 pm, Daimrod <daim...@gmail.com> wrote:
<snipped>

> Are you serious? Just compare how many times you need to hit CAPS LOCK
> and how many times you need to hit Control with Emacs.

Whats the question? That capslock may be useful? Or that chording can
produce RSI?

Joe Corneli

unread,

May 30, 2012, 2:08:10 PM5/30/12

to rusi, help-gn...@gnu.org

There is no caps lock.
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/gnu-emacs-sources/2004-08/msg00013.html

Dan Espen

unread,

May 30, 2012, 2:19:14 PM5/30/12

to

Hey, I'm 66 and I've been pounding the heck out of keyboards for over 50
years. My secret?

Beats me, but I have an attitude. If it hurts, do it some more.
Get tougher. Never give in.

I really do pound on the keys.

--
Dan Espen

Jonathan Groll

unread,

May 30, 2012, 5:37:02 PM5/30/12

to help-gnu-emacs

Very well put.

You can have your cake and eat it (or have both control and caps-lock
in convenient places) - if you get an intelligently designed (usually
mechanical) keyboard (thinking of the Kinesis with thumb keys). RSI is
a serious thing, particular with us Emacs folks, and often typing is
our livelihood.

Cheers,
Jonathan

P.S. Actually, another alternative to swapping capslock and control:
running a modified XF86 that lets you use the space key as a control
key "when it is pressed with another key":
http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=65950

--
jjg: Jonathan J. Groll : groll co za
has_one { :blog => "http://bloggroll.com" }
"A 'No' uttered from the deepest conviction is better than a 'Yes'
merely uttered to please, or worse, to avoid trouble." - Gandhi

David Robinow

unread,

May 31, 2012, 9:37:24 AM5/31/12

to help-gn...@gnu.org

> -----Original Message-----
> From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+davidrobinow=woh.r...@gnu.org [mailto:help-
> gnu-emacs-bounces+davidrobinow=woh.r...@gnu.org] On Behalf Of Nix
> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 12:27 PM
> To: help-gn...@gnu.org
> Thus, one hits caps lock *once*, types the run of capitalized keys, then
> hits it again, thus avoiding both single-hand chording and an annoying
> constant flip of the chording hand.

I disable caps-lock every chance I get. On the rare occasion that I decide
to type in all caps, I find that M-b M-u does the job.
If I used all caps more than once or twice a year, I might feel
differently.

rusi

unread,

May 31, 2012, 1:05:53 PM5/31/12

to

On May 31, 6:37 pm, "David Robinow" <DavidRobi...@woh.rr.com> wrote:

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+davidrobinow=woh.rr....@gnu.org [mailto:help-
> > gnu-emacs-bounces+davidrobinow=woh.rr....@gnu.org] On Behalf Of Nix
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 12:27 PM
> > To: help-gnu-em...@gnu.org
> > Thus, one hits caps lock *once*, types the run of capitalized keys, then
> > hits it again, thus avoiding both single-hand chording and an annoying
> > constant flip of the chording hand.
>
> I disable caps-lock every chance I get. On the rare occasion that I decide
> to type in all caps, I find that M-b M-u does the job.
> If I used all caps more than once or twice a year, I might feel
> differently.

Nix mentioned two cases (1) headings in normal text (2) macros in C.
It would be surprising if anyone doing either of these needed capslock
with a frequency of "once or twice a year"

[I set my capslock to behave as a second ctrl. So I end up using
chording and flipping and sometimes M-u. But I realize this may not be
the kindest choice for a hand]