Let's discuss Freedom Toaster

[Prasanna Gautam]

I was so glad to know that KU is initiating the freedom toaster in the university. What kind of project will it be anyways. Is it possible to discuss the configuration and esp the underlying Freedom Toaster application that will need to be made? Can we do the application in a more OSS way like using SVN (we have managed svn at  olpcnepal server I believe... ) or git so that the same can be ported to other places and we have a tangible project? It will be simple project for the start but there can be a lot of features that can be implemented later on!

KU guys,what kind of toaster are you planning and how can other FOSS members help?

[प्रबीण ( ओपन ठिटो )]

well, we have just introduce concept of FT to our dean: its importance, making , advantage. He is interested in the project. So we are currently finding the the total fund we need to do the project.

Anyone has any idea how much it may cost?? any estimation.???


--
Prabin Gautam "ओपन ठिटो"
Registered Linux User #443940
letS makE ouR streeT FOSSible..........

[Amit Aryal]

ya prasanna, the subject is hot here in mpp too. Initialization in the way u are telling may be significant. At least , one has to start it very soon................

[Subir Pradhanang]

Hi Prabin and all,

On 6/7/07, प्रबीण ( ओपन ठिटो ) <prabin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> well, we have just introduce concept of FT to our dean: its importance,
> making , advantage. He is interested in the project. So we are currently
> finding the the total fund we need to do the project.
>
> Anyone has any idea how much it may cost?? any estimation.???

I think Paras had done some research about the costs regarding Freedom
Toaster quite some time back. He should be able to give you a rough
estimation.

Cheers,
Subir

[daya]

 Yes, Freedom toaster is very fantastic movement for we fossisans,

Its significance is  very  great,  lets start to make initiative for it from FOSS Nepal.  I think many organizations are ready to  donate  for it, our MPP has also shown positive response on it.


Its good to hear that KU guys are taking interest on it making a university project.

[Prasanna Gautam]

Lets start on the application framework (backend/frontend) at least... maybe discuss on our IRC... #foss-nepal....

[nepbabu.cx]

Amit Aryal wrote:
> ya prasanna, the subject is hot here in mpp too. Initialization in the way u
> are telling may be significant. At least , one has to start it very
> soon................
>

Then why not everyone in the fossians, KU and MPP join hands and start
it right away ?

Talking about initiation only won't get FT implementation very far.
Cheers.

[Paras pradhan]

Well, i don't have the rough estimation. But the focus should be on

1) Good power backups ( online UPS ?)
2) Touch screen capability monitor
3) Backup Hard drives.

They will definitely cost more.


Paras.

On 6/7/07, Subir Pradhanang <sub...@gmail.com> wrote:

[nepbabu.cx]

Paras pradhan wrote:
> Well, i don't have the rough estimation. But the focus should be on
>
> 1) Good power backups ( online UPS ?)
> 2) Touch screen capability monitor
> 3) Backup Hard drives.
>
> They will definitely cost more.

As Subir dai was pointing out on #foss-nepal ( a while ago), computer
(hard drives, UPS etc..) can be arranged with some NGO/Agency that gives
away used computers. I am not sure but I think plenty of RAM, and hard
drive play crucial roal for FT. Touch Screen chai kasari implement
garney (How do we implement touch screen functionality?).

Comeon fossians all need to do some brainstorming or else this huge task
will never complete and it'll remain a simple adhuro sapana.

Cheers.

[{ K I R A N }]

I dont think touch screen is over ambitious, we can find the touch screen overlays in $159 which can be fitted in any CRT or LCD monitors.. http://www.touchscreens.com/products-addon.html

First we should finalize how much we are going to invest on this, according to this we can customized the FT.
http://www.freedomtoaster.org/

On 6/8/07, Bipin Gautam <bipin....@gmail.com> wrote:

guys isn't touch screen over ambitious? A fixed rubber keyboard with
mouse is simple and cost effective i suppose.

You might wanna ask help of some big ISP to donate unlimited bandwidth
for few hours from mid night so that new distros can be placed in
queue as requests and can be easily download. Mke sure anyone from
nepal can download it from the internet within NPIX.

One more thing, dont settle with anything less than few TB of storage
in RAID. Things will be filled pritty soon. With the housing cost, few
security camera for monitoring, UPS and other hardware accessaries etc
i suppose the cost will be 1.5 - 2 lakhs per machine.

thanks,
-bipin

[Prasanna Gautam]

i dunno why how i can spend 1-2 lakhs on freedom toaster.. can't figure.. must be cheaper i guess.. the major cost might be a better DVD/CD writer.. better to have 2 .. CD writer for only CDs and DVD RW for only DVDs.. if that aids to the life span of that...

CPU doesn't need to be fast..  since its  going to be a single user computer doing specialized task.. ok unless we want to have a dynamic updating mechanism.. on the backend still not so much of CPU's turf i guess
HDD.. needs to be fast.. i remember buying 160GB for some 9K i guess.. must've been cheaper... SATA needed..
CD-ROM.... the most essential... save money for this... coz this is surely going to break down a lot...
touch screen.. well for now.. most ppl know how to use a mouse.. so emm.. i vote not .. but then it will be totally cool and will get some good publicity if we have one.. :D who knows if we start this other organizations will want to implement in other places via foss-nepal... similar to what COSL said they do..

a robust updateable interface.. software..(real ease of use here)... we need to make that...

[Prasanna Gautam]

The thing is having  it connected to internet will kill the spirit of freedom toaster.. because anyone who can download wud have already downloaded the files.. distros..  this will kill the social dimension that  a place with freedom toaster is going to have... apart from that, places with FTs become a meeting place and socializing place in time for fellow fossians..
considering downloading,, most of the early places are on networks already.. so if we just open up the network... maybe mirror some of the things on another computer.. it's gotta be enuff... coz we can download from anywhere within the place.. for now KU and MPP perhaps
also being on internet will put significant load on the server... we are not talking about a server but a simple commodity hardware... having the materials on the internet along with burning and all  will have really really significant effect on the computer.. we'll need some support from ISPs for sure for sth like that..
if we don't put it on the internet.. we'll be saving on some of the major costs.. unless of course we have some good funding..

On 6/9/07, Bipin Gautam <bipin....@gmail.com> wrote:

On 6/9/07, Prasanna Gautam <prasann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> i dunno why how i can spend 1-2 lakhs on freedom toaster.. can't figure..
> must be cheaper i guess.. the major cost might be a better DVD/CD writer..
> better to have 2 .. CD writer for only CDs and DVD RW for only DVDs.. if
> that aids to the life span of that...
>
> CPU doesn't need to be fast..  since its  going to be a single user computer
> doing specialized task.. ok unless we want to have a dynamic updating

but using a outdated hardware isnt good either. I suggest to make sure
anyone from nepal can download it from the Internet within NPIX. (as
it will be connected to Internet anyways)



Expected life: 5 years with hardware maintenance.

We should be using Raid 6: ( go figure out why, or argue with me some other day)

Price of a 220 GiB sata ~= 7000 rs
Per raid 6 array would cost 7000x4 ~= 28000 rs
storage == 220x2 == 440 GiB

440 GiB is sufficient as a start but if you look forward for few years
you will realize over 100 GiB will be filled with just versions of
Debian. So i suggest everyone to aim for 1 TB or slightly more if you
guys are going to WRITE REAL PROPOSAL AND HOPING TO BE REALLY FUNDED
AND EXPECTING TO USE THE MACHINE IN REAL FUTURE.

so i was thinking of;
440 GiB X 3 == 1.2890625 TB
28000 X 3 ~= 84000 rs

As a backup. Expect to change the DVD-RW once or twice a year. (And we
will need two of those)

so be easy on the price. Expect Electrical failures and other
component failures are part of future. You would wanna have a certain
budget for that.

another ~ 30 thousand for low end pc with few cameras to keep security logs ;)

A good (secure) housing for the hardware with proper cooling (30-50
thou?), inverter(15000), electricity cost...
300 watt(/hr) X 24 ==7.2 unit x~ 6 rs =~ 43rs/day x 365 == 15700 rs
(electricity cost... unless  the local electricity authority agrees to
sponsor it)

you guys do the adding.....

regards,
-bipin

[nepbabu.cx]

Bipin Gautam wrote:
> On 6/9/07, Prasanna Gautam <prasann...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> i dunno why how i can spend 1-2 lakhs on freedom toaster.. can't figure..
>> must be cheaper i guess.. the major cost might be a better DVD/CD writer..
>> better to have 2 .. CD writer for only CDs and DVD RW for only DVDs.. if
>> that aids to the life span of that...
>>
>> CPU doesn't need to be fast.. since its going to be a single user computer
>> doing specialized task.. ok unless we want to have a dynamic updating
>

RAID is handled transparently in Debian.

http://www.freedomtoaster.org/?q=node/72 gives us the specification but
that doesn't mean it has to be according to the specs. Remember this is
a machine that shoule be actually *whatever* we can afford.

Plenty of RAM, Hard disk, Internet, and a good set of CD/DVD writer
should do for now (All these stuff can be get if someone authorative
figure from foss nepal can contact NGOs/KU/other organisations for
donated hardware).

Where are all the KU guys. All i hear talking in this mailing list are
fossian regulars.

Bipin: if you are worried about raid levels,
http://xtronics.com/reference/SATA-RAID-debian-for-2.6.html, aka the
mdadm software handles raid0-12 on SATA devices on debian.

Let's not worry too much about implementation at this stage.
The important thing to worry are IMO -
1. How to get those commodity parts.
2. Setup FT hardware team.
3. Setup FT software team.
4. Internet problem.

There could be more.
Another note, Manish Regmi ji also showed interest in it so please
welcome him! :)

Cheers.

[Prasanna Gautam]

On 6/9/07, Bipin Gautam <bipin....@gmail.com> wrote:

On 6/9/07, Prasanna Gautam <prasann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The thing is having  it connected to internet will kill the spirit of
> freedom toaster.. because anyone who can download wud have already
> downloaded the files.. distros..

NO! (arr... i hate to argue....... because when i do sometimes there
are friends the other side. Take this argument just as n intellectual
discussion ;)

Ok... hmm..  i dunno why anyone wud take this as argument..

I thought spirit of "freedom toaster" is OSS made EASILY ACCESSIBLE
and FREE. For people within Nepal (and not necessarily within KTM
only) i may be busy to go visit (say) MPP and do the burning but
instantly download it and use it from my home using high speed
download for local traffic using NPIX.

Freedom Toaster should not be a giant bloat of a project...  It should have internet connection perhaps for the maintainer to upload files but having a hardware that will do all that at the same time will be a huge problem... talk about having to burn 3 DVDs and upload files over the internet. If you are talking about mirroring the content.. that's ok... but when a simple setup will do, this will add more and more complexity.
Freedom Toaster should be for burning CDs for people who cannot get those things otherwise.. i.e, internet to experiment with them.

I'm not talking about a server at a protected facility... you just cannot expect a single computer at a public place to do all these things. Period.
Ok, talk about FOSS Nepal maintaining a mirrored repository, that can be easy and much less of a PITA...

----[quote from website]------
Freedom Toasters are preloaded to dispense free digital products,
including software, photography, music and literature.

The Freedom Toaster project began as a means of overcoming the
difficulty in obtaining Linux and Open Source software due to the
restrictive telecommunications environment in South Africa, where the
easy downloading of large pieces of software is just not possible for
everyone.
Freedom Toaster has been shortlisted for the following award:
----[/quote]------

mark the word "overcoming the difficulty in obtaining Linux and Open
Source software "  SEE THATS THE SPRIT OF FREEDOM TOSTER. NOTHING
MORE!
For many, downloading from the Internet may be difficult, for some
visiting the "freedom toaster" location may be little more difficult
and for some downloading straight from the freedom toaster maybe very
easy. LET THE USERS HAVE THE OPTION. Lets compare the stats. If very
few people from nepal are downloading we could discontinue it.
Please do remember there are villages outside KTM with internet in nepal.

a means of overcoming the
difficulty in obtaining Linux and Open Source software due to the
restrictive telecommunications environment

dude u forgot this... [restrictive telecommunications environment],... people have to go to a nearby FT due to the lack of internet...
AFAIK.. people just 10 meters from Ring Road don't get cable internet .. which village are you talking about? I'm not against putting it up on the internet... let's not bloat this project...  maybe do a periodic mirroring and use a different machine on a much more maintainable environment...

>we'll need some support from
> ISPs for sure for sth like that..
> if we don't put it on the internet.. we'll be saving on some of the major
> costs.. unless of course we have some good funding..
>

your point contradicts with one another. Firstly you say.... we need
support from ISP to get latest builds (and to make the process as easy
as possible) I suppose remote log on, remote upload to freedom
toster...... afterall it would be impossible for the mantainer to
visit the
toster and upload avery new builds in DVD manually. Connecting it to
internet with a webserver means we'll know what the users want. users
can discuss instead of getting only what the MANTAINER wants.

yeah... i must've been more clear... i meant to say.. let's close the port 80.. maybe open ssh port for uploading

We don't need to have a single computer for this... FT should be as its name says.... Freedom "Toaster".... as a project, all these things are more than feasible...

What u say the computer will be doing is :

1.    Burn CD/DVDs
2.    Let users download large , 500/600 MB + files
3.    Run a web server
4.    Even run a forum/wiki perhaps

Freedom Toaster as a machine should be concerned with just point 1... backend updating and stuff do go with it.. but that should be it...

That way we can prolly manage the basic operations from a simple pentium 4 (maybe even 3) driving the costs really low..

we should be aiming at how FTs can be implemented at a reasonable price and be used all over nepal where people don't have access to the communication infrastructures. Lets talk with ISPs... have a mirror from where FTs can mirror.. update... but running some of these things from a publicly placed commodity hardware is plain impossible... IMHO..
      

secondly you say it will cot you.

for automation (upload) you need to connect it to some Nepalese ISP at
lest. If its connected to an ISP if nepal its already available to
anyone within nepal whose local bandwidth route through NPIX at zero
EXTRA cost.

http://npix.net.np


thanks,
-bipin

[AK]

hey sabai dai harru :)

I am quite un- noticed abt the discussion of freedom toaster in here,
and offcourse here in our university we are doing it probably,
But recently i am in contact with one international student from
korean in USA, i forget his university name but its in Texas, he is
the preparing FT himself, the university is quite in village and the
internet itself is a problem in US itself, so i talked him about the
cost and its features. But he himself was not so clear about and it
and his english was poor :P
anyways i believe we can do it in our university bcoz downloading open
source software have been a great problem recently.
Thank you for the response of all of FOSS nepal ko dai harru :)
and Prassannna thank you for ur visit and ur presentation on drupal,
we seek more and more help from FOSS nepal in Linux talks. :)

On Jun 7, 10:03 am, "Subir Pradhanang" <subi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Prabin and all,
>