WebObjects, WebRex vs Netscape
John Dawson
Navigator 2.0 and Navigator Gold. US English beta versions available
later this week. Expected ship dates Q4 1995.
The new Navigator software should be a quantum leap beyond the current
version. It'll support the Netscape scripting language, based on Java.
Support for frames. Plug-ins (e.g. QuickTime, Acrobat, Director).
Real email and news reading, finally.
And Navigator Gold has WYSIWYG HTML authoring.
These products will obliterate any NEXTSTEP-based solution. I'd laugh
at NeXT if all of this didn't make me so sad. They stopped going
head-to-head with Microsoft, so they could go head-to-head with
Netscape? It's so Greek.
--
jda...@tkg.com (John Dawson)
do...@zeke.lanl.gov
> For those of you who aren't aware of this, Netscape has just announced
> Navigator 2.0 and Navigator Gold. US English beta versions available
> later this week. Expected ship dates Q4 1995.
Both commercial I believe. Didn't they say there would be no more free
versions (shareware?)? Price?
> The new Navigator software should be a quantum leap beyond the current
> version. It'll support the Netscape scripting language, based on Java.
That should be cool. I have seen some traffic about security problems
though with Java, not to mention graduate students completely breaking the
encryption in the current version of Netscape which won't disappear too
quickly (the installed broken versions that is, the bug is supposed to be
fixed next week), especially if the new stuff is all commercial. Nothing
precludes Java in Omniweb as well though.
> Support for frames.
Hmmm.. Don't know what they are.
> Plug-ins (e.g. QuickTime, Acrobat, Director).
> Real email and news reading, finally.
Don't need them on NeXTSTEP. Netscape needs this kind of stuff
because there is no good way for apps to message each other on its
target platforms. In NS, you can do so through services and
inter-application communication. For instance, see how my
HyperTeXview.app (http://xxx.lanl.gov/hypertex/) interacts with
Omniweb already with no real work (this part based on Dmitri Linde's
original code). Netscape is becoming a huge monolithic resource
hog. I really am in favor of NeXT's philosophy of having independent,
but closely cooperating applications. Why do I need a web browser
to provide me with a newsreader or an email application when I
already have them on my system?
> And Navigator Gold has WYSIWYG HTML authoring.
That could be good. Maybe it will actually enforce proper HTML. How much is
the gold version anyway?
> These products will obliterate any NEXTSTEP-based solution.
I wouldn't go that far.
> I'd laugh
> at NeXT if all of this didn't make me so sad. They stopped going
> head-to-head with Microsoft, so they could go head-to-head with
> Netscape? It's so Greek.
Not sure what the new Netscape clients have to do with WebObjects and
WebRex since those are server end products and are aimed at competing with
Netscape's very expensive servers (I think $25,000 for some versions...).
Still, there is no denying that Netscape is driving the client side. The
question is how far behind will the NeXT applications lag. A few months is
nothing too serious, a year is a disaster....
Cheers,
Mark
Ted Shelton
Dawson <jda...@tkg.com> writes:
> And Navigator Gold has WYSIWYG HTML authoring.
>
> These products will obliterate any NEXTSTEP-based solution. I'd laugh
> at NeXT if all of this didn't make me so sad. They stopped going
> head-to-head with Microsoft, so they could go head-to-head with
> Netscape? It's so Greek.
>
Navigator Gold, and many other client side products will support WYSIWYG
HTML authoring on Windows soon -- long before we can hope to port WebPages
to Win32 -- technology watchers take note. And so yes John -- you are
correct that it is difficult, if not impossible, to compete against the
Win32 juggernaut.
Watch for our SERVER side HTML authoring announcement...
:-)
yours,
Ted Shelton
--
<ADDRESS>
Ted Shelton, President
IT Solutions, Inc.
500 West Madison, Suite 2210
Chicago, IL 60661
(312) 474-7700
</ADDRESS>
Garance A Drosehn
> Although keep in mind that the version of Netscape affected is
> the exportable one. It uses RC4 with a completely neutered key
> length. This key length is deliberately made short enough that
> it amenable to brute force attack. Thus, this episode says
> nothing new or interesting about the strength of any currently
> deployed cryptosystem---just that luddite U.S. exort regulations
> are likely to start impeding commerce to the point that the U.S.
> itself is adversely affected.
This is certainly going to become a bigger and bigger issue.
Perhaps commerical interests can beat some sense into Congress,
where mere personal privacy interests didn't convince them.
Personally I hope all these lame security protocols are broken
into immediately, and that companies like Netscape can make
a solid case that these bone-headed limitations need to be
changed.
---
Garance Alistair Drosehn = g...@eclipse.its.rpi.edu
ITS Systems Programmer (handles NeXT-type mail)
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy NY USA
Kennel
> > I'd laugh
> > at NeXT if all of this didn't make me so sad. They stopped going
> > head-to-head with Microsoft, so they could go head-to-head with
> > Netscape? It's so Greek.
> Not sure what the new Netscape clients have to do with WebObjects and
> WebRex since those are server end products and are aimed at competing with
> Netscape's very expensive servers (I think $25,000 for some versions...).
Yes but look at http://home.netscape.com again.
There's the "LiveWire" something like that that allows
development and construction of 'live-objects' using Java. Rather close
to Web-Objects, huh?
And there's a version that connects to databases, and comes with some version
of Informix.
$199 and $699 for windows, $399 & $899 for Unix. (Damned unix tax
again).
OK, quoting from their press release...
MOUNTAIN VIEW, Calif. (September 18, 1995) -- Netscape Communications
Corporation (NASDAQ: NSCP) today introduced Netscape LiveWire and Netscape
LiveWire Pro, professional visual development environments for creating,
deploying, and maintaining entire online application systems. Netscape
LiveWire provides an integrated, visual environment that enables
application developers to easily build and manage next generation live
applications and content for enterprise networks and the Internet. The Pro
version adds database connectivity to the Netscape LiveWire environment
for easy information management as well as integration with existing
databases.
Netscape LiveWire and Netscape LiveWire Pro are part of an array of
Netscape products announced today that deliver a new level of
interactivity to users accessing or sharing information online. Together
with Netscape Navigator 2.0 and Netscape ation online. Together with
Netscape Navigator 2.0 and Netscape Navigator Gold 2.0, Netscape LiveWire
and LiveWire Pro expand Netscape's client/server software line, designed
to link people and information, into a full application platform for
enterprise networks and the Internet.
Netscape LiveWire enables developers to create, modify, and maintain
online sites and applications through a simple drag-and-drop,
point-and-click environment. The environment uses the Java programming
language and a Java-based scripting language to enable developers to
create and execute Live Objects, or interactive multimedia content, within
their applications. The Netscape LiveWire visual development environment
includes:
Netscape Navigator Gold 2.0, a next-generation software tool that enables
easy navigation, creation, and editing of live online documents. Netscape
Navigator Gold integrates easy-to-use Internet word processing
capabilities into the Netscape Navigator 2.0 client, allowing users to
create sophisticated hypermedia content, including Live Objects, in a
WYSIWYG environment.
LiveWire Site Manager, a visual drag-and-drop tool that enables developers
to view and manage entire web sites in a graphical format. Users can see
hypertext links to and from a particular page or file on the site and
easily modify or delete them using a point-and-click interface. Whenever a
page, link, or em using a point-and-click interface. Whenever a page,
link, or file is added, moved or deleted, Site Manager automatically
changes all references to it within the site so that all hyperlinks are
preserved. Site Manager also does external link checking, following links
from a compiled site to determine if theycking, following links from a
compiled site to determine if they are still active and connected to live
Web pages. It also includes wizards, which are easy-to-use forms for
creating pages with tables of contents, site indices, and other pointers
that simplify navigation for end users.
LiveWire Server Extension Engine, which provides Live Object support
within Netscape servers. The engine includes a script compiler and runtime
interpreter for a Java-based scripting language that lets users easily
create live applications for use with Netscape clients and servers; a user
state management engine, that enables applications to customize content
for particular users and tr applications to customize content for
particular users and track users as they navigate through pages; and C/C++
interfaces for scripts to access external server-side objects and code.
LiveWire Server Front Panel, a graphical tool that lets users easily
install and monitor Netscape LiveWire applications. Developers can access
the front panel from a local or remote Netscape Navigator, enabling them
to update or monitor a site easily from any location.
In addition to these features, the Pro version of Netscape LiveWire adds
database connectivity and compatibility. Netscape LiveWire Pro lets
developers create applications that enable Netscape Navigator users to
navigate, search, and update relational databases. The product includes a
developer's copy of Informix-Online database software from Informix
Software, Inc., and is compatible with all popular relational databases.
All of Netscape's products are based on industry standards and protocols,
and are compatible with other World Wide Web browsers and servers.
Netscape LiveWire and Netscape LiveWire Pro work with Netscape
Communications Server and Netscape Commerce Server software. The products
will be available for Microsoft Windows 95, Windows NT, and popular UNIX
operating environments in the fourtWindows NT, and popular UNIX operating
environments in the fourth quarter of 1995. Netscape LiveWire and Netscape
LiveWire Pro can be purchased directly from Netscape and from Netscape
authorized resellers. Pricing starts at $199 for Netscape LiveWire and
$699 for LiveWire Pro for Windows 95 and Windows NT, and $399 and $899
respectively for UNIX.
.....and also....
MOUNTAIN VIEW, Calif. (September 18, 1995) -- Netscape Communications
Corporation (NASDAQ: NSCP) today announced that more than 2,000 developers
have joined its Netscape Development Partners Program, aimed at
organizations developing products or services based on the Netscape
application platform. Commercial and enterprise developers -- including
Adobe, Apple Computer, EDS, Kaleida, Macromedia, Progressive Networks --
as well as creative and design professionals will use Netscape's open,
secure software platform to create live online applications for enterprise
networks and the Internet.
The Netscape Development Partners Program, announced last month, provides
partners with software, tools, information, and month, provides partners
with software, tools, information, and support to make it easy to
customize and add functionality to Netscape's client and server software.
Netscape announced today four new products -- Netscape Navigator 2.0,
Netscape Navigator Gold 2.0, Netscape LiveWire, and Netscape LiveWire Pro
that extend Netscape's software line into a platform for applications
that link people and information.
Commercial developers creating products for the Netscape application
platform include Adobe, Apple, Attachmate, Citrix, DSP Group, eShop Inc.,
Globalink, Iconovex, Illustra, Insoft, Intervista, Iterated Systems, Inc.,
Johnson-Grace, Kaleida, Macromedia, Microsystems Software, Novell, Now
Software, Paper Software, Progressive Networks, RAD Technologies, Inc.,
7th Level, Silicon Graphics, SoftQuad, SRAD Technologies, Inc., 7th Level,
Silicon Graphics, SoftQuad, Sybase, Template Graphics Software, Tumbleweed
Software, VocalTec, VoxWare, White Pine, and Xing Technology.
Enterprise and content developers creating live content using the Netscape
application platform include BASIS, CMP's TechWeb, Dimension X, Discovery
Online, Dow Jones & Co., EDS, Global Commerce Link, House of Blues New
Media, Internet Underground Music Archive, NBC, NECX Direct, Organic,
Quotecom, Random House, Red Sky, San Jose Mercury News, Silicon Graphics,
The Voyager Company, Up & Running, Vivy News, Silicon Graphics, The
Voyager Company, Up & Running, Vivid, and Worldview Systems Corp. Those
creating Java applets include Dimension X, Discovery Online, Global
Commerce Link, Internet Underground Music Archive, NBC, Organic, Red Sky,
Silicon Graphics, and Worldview Systems Corp.
The Netscape Development Partners Program includes the following core
components:
Regular updates from Netscape, including an electronic newsletter,
e-mail notices of product or program announcements, and participation in
Netscape's developer conferences
Online technical information, including information on Netscape client
and server application programming interfaces and programming with Java,
application programming interfaces and programming with Java, standards
documentation, and development tools documentation
Technical support, including online discussion groups
Early access to Netscape development tools, as they become available
Discounts on Netscape software.
.....
So they got 2,000 developers in one month. Maybe that $2.9 billion
market cap isn't so crazy after all.
Ted Shelton
> Why are they competing with Netscape? NeXT is producing neither a
>browser
> nor an HTML editor. NeXT is putting out WebObjects, a database/http
> connectivity product.
>
> I don't see where a new browser does anything to compete with this.
>
> I really don't see any reason that WebObjects and Jave can't coexist on
a
> server, so even the Java argument is moot.
>
> Could you explain?
>
> Terry Wilcox
>
Check out:
http://www.netscape.com/newsref/pr/newsrelease41.html
It looks like Netscape is interested in the same server side application
market that the rest of us are trying to get into :-)
yours,
Ted
G.Robert Arrabito
> do...@zeke.lanl.gov wrote:
> > Not sure what the new Netscape clients have to do with WebObjects and
> > WebRex since those are server end products and are aimed at competing
> > with Netscape's very expensive servers (I think $25,000 for some
> > versions...).
> Yes but look at http://home.netscape.com again.
> There's the "LiveWire" something like that that allows
> development and construction of 'live-objects' using Java. Rather close
> to Web-Objects, huh?
> And there's a version that connects to databases, and comes with some
> version of Informix.
> $199 and $699 for windows, $399 & $899 for Unix. (Damned unix tax
> again).
> OK, quoting from their press release...
Huh, I didn't see that stuff yet. That is a bit more significant, but still
the original post was talking about Navigator, their client.
Cheers,
Mark
re:_webobjects,_webrex_vs_netscape
No he didn't. Alexandra did something weird since I forgot to set the From
line. It was me who posted.
> Huh, I didn't see that stuff yet. That is a bit more significant, but
> still the original post was talking about Navigator, their client.
> Cheers,
> Mark
Cheers again,
Mark
Gregory H. Anderson
> John Dawson <jda...@tkg.com> writes
>
> [ Navigator celebration munched ]
>
> > These products will obliterate any NEXTSTEP-based solution. I'd laugh
> > at NeXT if all of this didn't make me so sad. They stopped going
> > head-to-head with Microsoft, so they could go head-to-head with
> > Netscape? It's so Greek.
>
> and WebRex are. The are server software, nothing to do with
> www clients. So your post is useless, unfortunately.
No, John just left out the most important part of the announcement.
Netscape also announced LiveWire and LiveWire Pro, which do real-time
publishing of information drawn from corporate databases. To me, that
sounded equivalent to WebObjects.
Y'all have missed the point about Netscape's revenue model. They made
their NAME on client software. They make their MONEY on servers. I have
no doubt that LiveWire will be well marketed as the "standard" solution
for doing the same kinds of things WebObjects can do. Except it will
be coming from a hot company that people trust. Guess who wins?
Honestly, the average poster to c.s.n.advocacy has the business savvy
of a junior high school student. NeXT and ITS apparently had the same
great idea around the same time, and both of them have reached (or
almost reached) the market with a product by now. You think no one
else had the same idea on other, more popular operating systems? The
landscape is LITTERED with people doing this stuff. It is no accident
that Pages couldn't make it with WebPages in the NEXTSTEP market, nor
could they secure financing to take their product to other markets.
Dozens of ardent suitors are attempting the same things.
CUSTOMERS DON'T CARE WHETHER A PRODUCT IS BUILT WITH OBJECTS. They
only care whether it does the job for which it is intended, and is
sold and supported by a company they trust. That's why NeXT is not
going to win any mindshare with this "new" technology.
--
Gregory H. Anderson | "Honey, there're few programming
Gaffer/Best Boy/Key Grip | problems that can't be solved
Anderson Financial Systems | with duct tape." -- 'Father' Duke
gr...@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | (paraphrased), Doonesbury, 2/17/95
Steve Weintz
writes:
> gdk...@mercator.math.uwaterloo.ca (Jerry Kuch) wrote:
> > Although keep in mind that the version of Netscape affected is
> > the exportable one. It uses RC4 with a completely neutered key
> > length. This key length is deliberately made short enough that
> > it amenable to brute force attack. Thus, this episode says
> > nothing new or interesting about the strength of any currently
> > deployed cryptosystem---just that luddite U.S. exort regulations
> > are likely to start impeding commerce to the point that the U.S.
> > itself is adversely affected.
>
> This is certainly going to become a bigger and bigger issue.
> Perhaps commerical interests can beat some sense into Congress,
> where mere personal privacy interests didn't convince them.
> Personally I hope all these lame security protocols are broken
> into immediately, and that companies like Netscape can make
> a solid case that these bone-headed limitations need to be
> changed.
My wife and partner, Jo Sampolesi, brought up another point when she testified to
the Senate judiciary subcommittee hearings on Internet censorship; namely, that U.S.
blue laws are pointless and anti-business in a global marketplace. If a Japanese
firm pays us to build a web site advertising manga-jin, and some D.A. in Mississipi
objects, why should we loose the job to an overseas studio? The aggressive idiocy of
my homeland at times stuns me.
| Steve Weintz * Partner, New Media,Ltd. * st...@dave-world.net |
| 217.344.5303 * fax 217.344.8981 * http://gecko.dave-world.net/|
| P.O.Box 742 | "Bobcat, do you like hamsters or gerbils?" |
| Urbana, IL USA 61801 |"Well, there's more dark meat on a hamster."|
Robert Nicholson
>In article <Pine.A32.3.91.950919...@argent.tkg.com>,
>John Dawson <jda...@tkg.com> wrote:
>>For those of you who aren't aware of this, Netscape has just announced
>>Navigator 2.0 and Navigator Gold. US English beta versions available
>>later this week. Expected ship dates Q4 1995.
>>
>>These products will obliterate any NEXTSTEP-based solution. I'd laugh
>>at NeXT if all of this didn't make me so sad. They stopped going
>>head-to-head with Microsoft, so they could go head-to-head with
>>Netscape? It's so Greek.
>Why are they competing with Netscape? NeXT is producing neither a browser
>nor an HTML editor. NeXT is putting out WebObjects, a database/http
>connectivity product.
You are _extremely_ niave to think that Netscape are only interested
in browsers and editors.
--
"Mary ate a little lamb and punk rock isn't dead"
(PGP key: send email with Subject: request pgp key)
Terry Wilcox
Robert Nicholson <rob...@steffi.accessone.com> wrote:
>You are _extremely_ niave to think that Netscape are only interested
>in browsers and editors.
Oh well, live and learn.
I comfort myself by thinking about all the people that bought Netscape
stock. They make me feel downright worldly.
Wonder how long it'll take to spend all that money?
Terry Wilcox
--
Terry Wilcox
Arcane Systems Ltd.
te...@arcane.com
John Dawson
: John Dawson <jda...@tkg.com> writes
: [ Navigator celebration munched ]
: > These products will obliterate any NEXTSTEP-based solution. I'd laugh
: > at NeXT if all of this didn't make me so sad. They stopped going
: > head-to-head with Microsoft, so they could go head-to-head with
: > Netscape? It's so Greek.
: John, you obviously don't understand at all what WebObjects
: and WebRex are. The are server software, nothing to do with
: www clients. So your post is useless, unfortunately.
: Ralf
I disagree. :-)
(And I *do* understand what WebObjects, etc. are.)
The point you are making here is that WebObjects runs on the server, so
who cares what's on the client side? And this is a valid point in the
short run. Netscape's web server software doesn't do any fancy OOP/DB
stuff, so it would seem that NeXT has a big competitive advantage
here.
But take the scene to a year from now. If you were Joe Q. Fortune500, and
you had the choice between picking a web server supported by Netscape
-- a HIGH, HIGH profile company, whose software excellence can be
demonstrated on everybody's desk when they run Navigator -- or NeXT, a
NO profile company, who most people think went belly under -- which
would you choose?
Netscape will eventually get around to doing something like WebObjects.
They haven't because they know that if they control over 95% of the client
market, they can capture the server market at their leisure. With or
*without* OOP stuff.
In the long run, NeXT will collide with Netscape in this market like a
bug on a car windshield.
See the analogy with their battle with Microsoft yet? In the short
run, the threat wasn't obvious, but in the long run NeXT didn't stand a
chance.
Ralf, it surprises me that somebody who's been reading and posting to this
newsgroup as long as you hasn't yet had this lesson beaten into him: market
share is everything.
--
jda...@tkg.com (John Dawson)
--
John Dawson // IBM: jda...@tkg.austin.ibm.com // Internet: jda...@tkg.com
Cell: 512-467-6542 // Home: 512-467-6542 // Cielo: 512-433-3324
David Evans
Jerry Kuch <gdk...@mercator.math.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
>In article <43o57u$a...@newshost.lanl.gov>, <do...@mmm.lanl.gov> wrote:
>>John Dawson <jda...@tkg.com> wrote:
>>
>>That should be cool. I have seen some traffic about security problems
>>though with Java, not to mention graduate students completely breaking the
>>encryption in the current version of Netscape which won't disappear too
>>quickly (the installed broken versions that is, the bug is supposed to be
>>fixed next week), especially if the new stuff is all commercial. Nothing
>>precludes Java in Omniweb as well though.
>
>exportable one. It uses RC4 with a completely neutered key length.
>This key length is deliberately made short enough that it amenable to
>brute force attack.
Don't think that was the source of the break, although that's what the French
guys did. Netscape was hosed because it only used about 30 bits of random
information to create the keys, be they 40 or 128 bits. Therefore the key
space was effectively 30 bits, everywhere. At least that's what I get from
http://home.netscape.com/newsref/std/random_seed_security.html.
--
David Evans (NeXTMail OK) dfe...@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca
Computer/Synth Junkie http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/
University of Waterloo "Default is the value selected by the composer
Ontario, Canada overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual
Toon Moene
> Maybe it's time to reinvent the Web. It's more than a year old, ...
'Scuse me - a _year_ ? I picked up a NeXTSTEP Web browser from one of
CERN's ftp nodes a couple of years ago. It had a date stamp back into 1990
on that server. The CERN guys _developed_ the Web browser + protocol +
markup language on NeXT boxes. So there.
Remember: WWW is nuclear science. That's what it was made for. All else is
optional. Void where prohibited.
--
Toon Moene (to...@moene.indiv.nluug.nl)
Saturnushof 14, 3738 XG Maartensdijk, The Netherlands
Phone: +31 3461 4290; Fax: +31 3461 4286
URL: http://www.knmi.nl/hirlam
Terry Wilcox
Toon Moene <to...@moene.indiv.nluug.nl> wrote:
>In article <43puc1$o...@bermuda.io.com> te...@io.com (Terry Wilcox) writes:
>
>> Maybe it's time to reinvent the Web. It's more than a year old, ...
>
>'Scuse me - a _year_ ? I picked up a NeXTSTEP Web browser from one of
>CERN's ftp nodes a couple of years ago. It had a date stamp back into 1990
>on that server. The CERN guys _developed_ the Web browser + protocol +
>markup language on NeXT boxes. So there.
Well, that's more than a year :)
So let's ditch it already. It was never meant for the kind of things
people are cramming into it. Most people have a low speed connection. Can
you imagine what Java is going to do to bandwidth? All that downloading.
John Dawson
> Netscape will eventually get around to doing something like WebObjects.
> They haven't because they know that if they control over 95% of the client
> market, they can capture the server market at their leisure. With or
> *without* OOP stuff.
As others on this newsgroup have pointed out to me since this, Netscape
has in fact already done their own fancy server development package. I
somehow missed this while reading their client-side announcements. But
I still maintain that they would have dominated the server market, even
without any major technical advances. The Microsoft factor.
--
jda...@tkg.com (John Dawson)
David Evans
Steve Besler <bes...@mdd.comm.mot.com> wrote:
>In article 100...@argent.tkg.com, John Dawson <jda...@tkg.com> writes:
>>The new Navigator software should be a quantum leap beyond the current
>>version. It'll support the Netscape scripting language, based on Java.
>
>
>Uh-oh! Does this mean they screwed up Java, just like they are screwing
>up HTML?
>
Likely...but it means that I don't have to include any closing parentheses.
:-)
Ralf Suckow
: suc...@bln.sel.alcatel.de (Ralf Suckow) writes:
: : John Dawson <jda...@tkg.com> writes
: : [ Navigator celebration munched ]
: :
: : > These products will obliterate any NEXTSTEP-based solution. I'd laugh
: : > at NeXT if all of this didn't make me so sad. They stopped going
: : > head-to-head with Microsoft, so they could go head-to-head with
: : > Netscape? It's so Greek.
: :
: : John, you obviously don't understand at all what WebObjects
: : and WebRex are. The are server software, nothing to do with
: : www clients. So your post is useless, unfortunately.
: :
: : Ralf
:
: I disagree. :-)
: (And I *do* understand what WebObjects, etc. are.)
:
: The point you are making here is that WebObjects runs on the server, so
: who cares what's on the client side? And this is a valid point in the
: short run. Netscape's web server software doesn't do any fancy OOP/DB
: stuff, so it would seem that NeXT has a big competitive advantage
: here.
including database access, I understood what John meant. It's just that we had
a server software discussion here and John came in with new client products.
I don't know if WebObjects will succeed (nobody knows), I just
hope NEXTSTEP will survive as niche product, to let me write MCCAs.
> Ralf, it surprises me that somebody who's been reading and posting to this
> newsgroup as long as you hasn't yet had this lesson beaten into him: market
> share is everything.
>
For me, market share is a result of good work and good luck.
Look at the Netscape people. They were nowhere in the 80's.
First they had a technology, called URL. Then they had a (free) product people
care about - Mosaic. They got a marketshare of only $0, but many many seats.
Then they founded a clever company, Netscape. Now they have the $$$ marketshare.
Their marketing impresses me. Especially I'm impressed with their
partner developers program. It's just great. And the Netscape people got
it without external help. It's not as with Microsoft, which was driven by IBM.
So, market share maybe the end of the story, not the story itself.
Also - how do you think I can be a NEXTSTEP developer for
many years if I think market share is everything :-)
The sad thing is that it's not possible for everyone to
go from the idea to the market share. One is not clever
enough, the other simply has no luck.
Ralf
--
Ralf Suckow |------------------------
suc...@bln.sel.alcatel.de | All opinions are mine.
Peter-john Byrnes
> much is the gold version anyway?
Define "proper HTML." Netscape has never supported (let alone
*enforced*) any such thing.
Blink. Blink. Blink.
--
Peter-john Byrnes
Online Scholarship Initiative 804/924-3169
Electronic Text Center byr...@virginia.edu
University of Virginia (NeXT/MIMEmail OK)
Henry McGilton
* >In article <ed9cv1...@steffi.accessone.com>,
* >Robert Nicholson <rob...@steffi.accessone.com> wrote:
* >>You are _extremely_ niave to think that Netscape are only interested
* >in browsers and editors.
* >
* >Oh well, live and learn.
* >
* >I comfort myself by thinking about all the people that bought Netscape
* stock. They make me feel downright worldly.
* >
* >Wonder how long it'll take to spend all that money?
Well, they just used some of the money to buy over
Collabra --- a ``groupware'' vendor. Idea is to use the Web for
collaborative work in corporate environments.
Described as a ``glancing blow'' against IBM/Lotus Notes.
........ Henry
Henry McGilton
* >In article <10...@moene.indiv.nluug.nl>,
* >Toon Moene <to...@moene.indiv.nluug.nl> wrote: * >>> Maybe it's time to reinvent the Web. It's more than a year old, ...
* >>
* >>'Scuse me - a _year_ ? I picked up a NeXTSTEP Web browser from one of
* >>CERN's ftp nodes a couple of years ago. It had a date stamp back into 1990
* >>on that server. The CERN guys _developed_ the Web browser + protocol +
* >>markup language on NeXT boxes. So there.
*
* >Well, that's more than a year :)
*
* >So let's ditch it already. It was never meant for the kind of things
* >people are cramming into it. Most people have a low speed connection. Can
* >you imagine what Java is going to do to bandwidth? All that downloading.
Excuse me Terry. The entire point of Java is to reduce the amount
of downloading that takes place. For example, rather than having the
server side plot a graph and then your client has to download a
large GIF image of the graph, the point of Java is you have a small
graph plotting application on the client end and you download
only the data for the graph.
........ Henry
Jerry Kuch
Peter-john Byrnes <byr...@virginia.edu> wrote:
>In article <43o57u$a...@newshost.lanl.gov> do...@zeke.lanl.gov writes:
>> John Dawson <jda...@tkg.com> wrote:
>>
>> > And Navigator Gold has WYSIWYG HTML authoring.
>>
>>That could be good. Maybe it will actually enforce proper HTML. How
>> much is the gold version anyway?
>
>Define "proper HTML." Netscape has never supported (let alone
>*enforced*) any such thing.
>
>Blink. Blink. Blink.
Oh that's just the start of it... how about...
Wuzzat? Looks like a '<' symbol. They must have meant
less than... nah, then they would have writen < but
no I think that's what they meant... let me just put in
a less than...
AND
Wuzzat? This comment never closes... the whole document
is invisible... let's see... they must have meant to close
this somewhere... how about here where the linefeed is...
let's assume a close comment there and keep going...
Two of my favorite non-standard and totally wrong HTML-isms that many
mainstream browsers special-case and work around. I have to go now
because I need to get back to writing my C compiler. This one guesses
where you forgot to declare variables and automatically matches your
braces for you if you leave some out... sure your programs don't always
work right, but at least the compiler never complains about syntax.
NOT.
--
Jerry Kuch EMail: gdk...@mercator.math.uwaterloo.ca, NeXTMail welcome.
IMPORTANT NEWS: Scripts for "Godzilla Vs. Desutoroia" had envisaged
the monster's main target as the 1996 World City Expo in Tokyo
but the idea fell through when Gov. Yukio Aoshima cancelled the event.
mmalcolm crawford
> current version. It'll support the Netscape scripting language,
> Acrobat, Director)
>
Hmm, the latest version of Netsurfer supports NEXTIME plugins.
With things like PDFView lying around, I can't see it being too much trouble
to add Acrobat compatibility too.
Have fun,
mmalc.
joe_freeman
> Excuse me Terry. The entire point of Java is to reduce the amount
> of downloading that takes place. For example, rather than having the
> server side plot a graph and then your client has to download a
> large GIF image of the graph, the point of Java is you have a small
> graph plotting application on the client end and you download
> only the data for the graph.
It is going to be interesting to see whether bandwidth is consumed or saved
by Java. The deciding factor will be the size of the applets and the
number of applets used at a given site in relation to the sophistication of
the applet. ie: many unsophisticated applets will probably consume more
bandwith than a few larger but more functional ones.
--
Joe Freeman J...@FreemanSoft.com (NeXT,MIME,ASCII Mail)
FreemanSoft Inc. A NEXTSTEP software and consulting company in MD.
Opinions expressed do represent those of FreemanSoft Inc and not NeXT Inc.
Yes, I do work for NeXT and they are not half as suprised about it as I am.
Duane Takamine
suc...@bln.sel.alcatel.de (Ralf Suckow) writes:
>But take the scene to a year from now. If you were Joe Q. Fortune500, and
>you had the choice between picking a web server supported by Netscape
>-- a HIGH, HIGH profile company, whose software excellence can be
>demonstrated on everybody's desk when they run Navigator -- or NeXT, a
>NO profile company, who most people think went belly under -- which
>would you choose?
>
1. Nearly everyone I know who is running Netscape is amazed by their
software excellence as well. It almost never crashes Windows when it dies,
which is fortunate, since it does so quite a lot.
2. There seem to be at least a couple of SGI web servers out there. I
guess those people didn't get the memo that said all the smart people were
getting Netscape servers.
>Netscape will eventually get around to doing something like WebObjects.
>They haven't because they know that if they control over 95% of the client
>market, they can capture the server market at their leisure. With or
>*without* OOP stuff.
>
I keep hearing that Netscape has over 95% of the client market. That
means that all the products from Spry (Internet in a box, Internet Office, etc),
plus all the public domain web browsers, plus the Mac browsers other than
Netscape for the Mac and other platforms, represent less than 5% of the market
combined? I think not.
>Ralf, it surprises me that somebody who's been reading and posting to this
>newsgroup as long as you hasn't yet had this lesson beaten into him: market
>share is everything.
>
Market share is everthing, if all you care about is market share. I
still use OmniWeb, because I like it better. I didn't get the Netscape memo
either. Even under Windows, I prefer Air Mosaic to Netscape, and oddly enough,
most people I demo it to tend to also. Lucky for me that those people didn't
get the memo either, or I'd never sell a copy of Internet Office.
People forget, too, that Netscape isn't proof that market share it
everything, they are proof that market share is fleeting. They proved that a
couple of guys can release a mediocre product and wake up one morning owning a
huge chunk of the market. It happened once, it could happen again. So, are you
saying that you'd bet your company on Netscape *just* because they happen to be
in the driver's seat *today*? I might use a Netscape server, then again not.
I'd base my decision on something a bit more concrete, though. Like, maybe, oh,
does the product do what I want it to do.
Having such a low market share hurts NeXT, but that does not mean that
having high market share gives Netscape the world on a plate.
Duane
John Dawson
> People forget, too, that Netscape isn't proof that market share it
> everything, they are proof that market share is fleeting. They proved that a
> couple of guys can release a mediocre product and wake up one morning owning a
> huge chunk of the market. It happened once, it could happen again. So, are you
> saying that you'd bet your company on Netscape *just* because they happen to be
> in the driver's seat *today*? I might use a Netscape server, then again not.
> I'd base my decision on something a bit more concrete, though. Like, maybe, oh,
> does the product do what I want it to do.
I wouldn't bet my company on Netscape because they currently possess
marketshare; I'd bet it because of the way they *got* that marketshare.
You seem unimpressed from a technical standpoint with what Netscape has
achieved. But consider the timeframe in which they've done what they've done.
Apr 1994 - Company founded
Sep 1994 - Announces Navigator
Oct 1994 - Navigator beta
Dec 1994 - Navigator ships
Sep 1995 - Announces next generation of products
Sep 1995 - (should happen this week) Beta versions of new stuff to be available
Hardly a sluggish rate of development. You say that the Windows
version of Navigator crashes a lot. Not good. But it's stable on all
the platforms I've seen it on, and let's face it, Windows is not good,
it's not surprising that Netscape didn't get it right for Windows on
the first try. Let's see if they improve in this area. (Know what my
guess is?)
Are you guessing that Netscape server software won't be top-notch?
What startup company in recent years has had a better combination of
rapid development and marketing savvy?
--
John Dawson (jda...@tkg.com)
Timothy Reed
applets may be linked to external C/C++ object code to do things like
read and write external data, etc. I can get at Sybase without the
overhead and expense of third party software gateway.
JAVA is a full featured OO programming language; think of all the
things you do with Obj-C and now imagine that your app, applet or
object will run on any OS/hardware platform with the free/cheap
browser. In fact, JAVA and Netscape may deliver the commercial object
platform that NeXT promised way back when. As far as the language
itself JAVA is a lot like C++ with all the stupid stuff taken out,
which is not entirely like Obj-C but these days, close enough.
All that NeXT and ITS offer is server-side access to PDO and
databases. At this point, WebObjects is old news. 6 months from
now, it'll be entirely irrelevent to most of the planet.
Tim
Ralf Suckow (suc...@bln.sel.alcatel.de) wrote:
: John Dawson <jda...@tkg.com> writes
Mark Doyle
> In article <43o57u$a...@newshost.lanl.gov> do...@zeke.lanl.gov writes:
> > John Dawson <jda...@tkg.com> wrote:
> >
> > > And Navigator Gold has WYSIWYG HTML authoring.
> >
> >That could be good. Maybe it will actually enforce proper HTML. How
> > much is the gold version anyway?
> Define "proper HTML." Netscape has never supported (let alone
> *enforced*) any such thing.
> Blink. Blink. Blink.
We are on the same side here. I meant HTML2.0 and HTML3.0. Currently people
hack around writing awful HTML that looks good in Netscape but it is broken
and other browsers fail to render it nicely because there is no way they
can behave the same as Netscape in ambiguous situations. Or at least it
will "standardize" the broken stuff so that other browsers can have an
easier time of dealing with the broken stuff since it will all be broken in
the same way.... So far Netscape has shown no proclivity for trying to
enforce a standard HTML or for coming up with tasteful enhancements.
Cheers,
Mark
Robert Nicholson
>>Blink. Blink. Blink.
>Cheers,
>Mark
This talk on NetScape's extensions has reminded me of some rather
humerous pieces from the Emacs-W3 info pages.
* The top ten tags that did not make it into netscape. These tags
were posted to the newsgroup comp.infosystems.www.misc by Laura
Lemay (le...@netcom.com). Much thanks to her for the humor.
<wired>...</wired>
Renders the enclosed text in a suitably ugly font/color
combination. If no default has been set up by the user, this
is the default font, with red text on a yellow background.
<roach>...</roach>
When selected, the enclosed text runs and hides under the
nearest window. OR, giggles a lot and demands nachos,
depending on your definition of "roach." (the formal
definition, of course, to be determined by the Official
Honorary Internet Standards Committee For Moving Really
Slowly.)
<kill_sgml>
Should anyone foolish enough to think that HTML is still SGML
and try and run a netscape-html document through an SGML
editor, processor, or other tool, this tag causes an
immediate core dump, erases anything on your disk with "DTD"
in the name, and emails a randomly-selected insult to Tim
Pierce.
Emacs-w3 just inserts a rude comment.
<pinhead>
Inserts "zippyisms" into the enclosed text. Perfect for
those professional documents. This is sure to be a favorite
of mine!
<secret>...</secret>
In order to read the enclosed text, you have to have secret
spy decoder glasses (available direct from Mcom for a
reasonable fee). You can also read it by holding your
computer in front of a full moon during the autumn solstice.
In Emacs-w3, this displays the text using rot13 encoding.
<hype>
Causes Marc Andreesen to magically appear and grant you an
interview (whether you want one or not). Please use this tag
sparingly.
<peek>....</peek>
<poke>...</poke>
So you want more control over screen layout in HTML? Well,
here ya go.
Actually, <peek> could almost be considered useful. The
VARIABLE attribute can be used to insert the value of an
emacs variable into the current document. Things like
'Welcome to my page, <peek variable=user-mail-address>' can
be useful in freaking people out.
<yogsothoth>
Summons the elder gods to suck away your immortal soul. Or
Bill Gates, if the elder gods are busy. Unpredictable (but
amusing) results occur when the <YOGSOTHOTH> and <HYPE> tags
are used in close proximity.
<blink>...</blink>
Causes the enclosed text to .... ooops that one made it in.
mmalcolm crawford
>You seem unimpressed from a technical standpoint with what Netscape has
>achieved. But consider the timeframe in which they've done what they've
done.
>
>Apr 1994 - Company founded
>Sep 1994 - Announces Navigator
>Oct 1994 - Navigator beta
>Dec 1994 - Navigator ships
>Sep 1995 - Announces next generation of products
>Sep 1995 - (should happen this week) Beta versions of new stuff to be
available
>
>Hardly a sluggish rate of development.
>
<yawn>
Depends in relation to what. Given the tools they had at their disposal
(i.e. most of the stuff had been worked out, code existed etc), I'd say it
was pretty slow -- compare:
(Ref: http://www.w3.org/pub/WWW/History.html)
March 1989
First project proposal written and circulated for comment at CERN (TBL).
Paper "HyperText and CERN" produced as background.
October 1990
Project proposal reformulated with encouragement from CN and ECP divisional
management. RC is co-author.
November 1990
Initial WorldWideWeb prototype developed on the NeXT (TBL) .
November 1990
Nicola Pellow joins and starts work on the line-mode browser . Bernd
Pollermann helps get interface to CERNVM "FIND" index running. TBL gives a
colloquium on hypertext in general.
Christmas 1990
Line mode and NeXTStep browsers demonstrable. Acces is possible to hypertext
files, CERNVM "FIND", and Internet news articles.
Ths is a bit more impressive -- TBL was using NeXTstep then, though.
(Or was it NeXTStep...?! :-)
Have fun,
mmalc.
John Dawson
commercial-grade product that runs on many UNIX platforms, Mac OS, and
Windows (though people here report that it crashes sometimes under
Windows.) The 1990 NEXTSTEP WWW browsers were prototypes. Even under
NEXTSTEP, there is a big difference betwen prototyping and producing a
commercial product.
The rate of progress Netscape has made has been fast enough that I'd
say it was decent (though not stunning) even if they were developing pure
NEXTSTEP apps. But given that it was a multi-platform thing (for God's
sake it even runs under WINDOWS!) I think it was a Herculean
achievement.
...jkd
--
John Dawson (jda...@tkg.com)
Patrick Scheible
>....
> <secret>...</secret>
> In order to read the enclosed text, you have to have secret
> spy decoder glasses (available direct from Mcom for a
> reasonable fee). You can also read it by holding your
> computer in front of a full moon during the autumn solstice.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is, of course, extremely difficult.
-- Patrick
indy@gryphon
> rob...@steffi.accessone.com (Robert Nicholson) writes:
>>....
>
>> <secret>...</secret>
>> In order to read the enclosed text, you have to have secret
>> spy decoder glasses (available direct from Mcom for a
>> reasonable fee). You can also read it by holding your
>> computer in front of a full moon during the autumn solstice.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> This is, of course, extremely difficult.
Not really; I use my computer with my head up my ass all the time...
:-)
---
| Steve Weintz * Partner, New Media,Ltd. * st...@dave-world.net |
| 217.344.5303 * fax 217.344.8981 * 柳ttp://www.nm-ltd.com/NMLtd/ |
mmalcolm crawford
Could somebody please explain to me the advantages of NetScape over, say,
NetSurfer or OmniWeb? I've been (trying to) play with NetScape a bit
recently (I need to familiarise myself with it to show others), and to me it
feels like a complete dog after the NS browsers. Just what is so special
about it? Apart from market share, which is not an issue relevant to its
technical merits (or otherwise).
Have fun,
mmalc.
Paul Lynch
Yes. It fully supports NetScape extentions to HTML; this may in fact be a
disadvantage from a technical viewpoint :-). It also downloads all the
compenents of a page simulataneously. It is deficient in a number of
areas compared to OmniWeb 1.0 (bookmarks, etc) and NetSurfer (custom
clients for ftp, etc).
Paul
--
Paul Lynch (NeXTmail) pa...@plsys.co.uk
Tel: (01494)432422 P & L Systems
Fax: (01494)432478 http://www.plsys.co.uk/~paul
Robert MacKimmie
> rob...@steffi.accessone.com (Robert Nicholson) writes:
> >....
> > <secret>...</secret>
> > computer in front of a full moon during the autumn solstice.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> This is, of course, extremely difficult.
>
Depends what PLANET you are on...
--Robert
Michael McCulloch
>Yes. It [Navigator] fully supports NetScape extentions to HTML; this may in fact be a
>disadvantage from a technical viewpoint :-). It also downloads all the
>compenents of a page simulataneously.
It displays graphics incrementally -- hardly a disadvantage.
>It is deficient in a number of
>areas compared to OmniWeb 1.0 (bookmarks, etc) and NetSurfer (custom
>clients for ftp, etc).
What version are you familiar with? The bookmark features in v 1.2 are
comparable, plus Navigator supports a top-notch bookmarker in
SmartMarks which is an external plug-in. FTP downloads are now
multi-threaded in function. Version 2.0 due out any time will support
several custom plug-in modules including one for Acrobat.
Things have changed since 6 months ago. Try again.
Robert Nicholson
>In article <44hq20$9...@news.usit.net> mmcc...@usit.net (Michael McCulloch)
>writes:
>0.96, as it happens. 1.22 is a lot better, although I don't think that
>the ftp client is any better than NetSurfer. Having just revisted this
>version (I am checking some pages prepared for a client using OmniWeb,
>NetSurfer, NetScape 1.22 and Mosaic, and I don't like what I am seeing),
>the really big pain with NetScape is that it insists on downloading
>graphics for pages that you have already visited. OmniWeb and NetSurfer
>support external Acrobat viewers (there is no need for an internal
>viewer), and NetSurfer is now supporting a custom client for
>NeXTTIME/QuickTime movies.
Are you saying that if a server pushes a content-type header that
indicates the output is pdf that OmniWeb can deal with it? Isn't that
what these Netscape modules are going to do?
NetSurfer contrains you in it's bookmarks though doesn't it? ie. you
are only allowed a fixed number of items at any particular tab "level"
I much prefer the approach by Lighthouse with heirarchical organiser.
If Bill Bumgarner reads this then Bill get back to me with your
Netsurfer thoughts.
Cheers.
Paul Lynch
Paul
mmalcolm crawford
> What version are you familiar with? The bookmark features in v 1.2
> are comparable, plus Navigator supports a top-notch bookmarker in
> SmartMarks which is an external plug-in. FTP downloads are now
> multi-threaded in function. Version 2.0 due out any time will
> support several custom plug-in modules including one for Acrobat.
>
Oh, right, so Netscape has caught up with Netsurfer and OmniWeb. Well done
Netscape.
Now... how about copy and paste? I really can't *believe* that it seems
impossible to copy some text from a Netscape page and drop it into, say, a
textedit window. And yet that's the case for me. I don't think my X-
windows session is badly set up either. I guess being able to drag images
out if the viewer as either GIF or TIFF (choice dependent on a command-key
in Netsurfer) and dropping them elsewhere would be too much to ask...
Oh, and version 2 (out RSN) *will* support Acrobat. So, that's another area
Netsurfer and Omniweb win out -- if I download a pdf file, PDFViewer just
fires right up.
Oh, and is there a way of opening a URL in a new viewer instead of having to
follow links in the current one (like you can with Command-click in
Netsurfer)? There may be -- I haven't found it yet.
Maybe things will have changed in 6 months. When they have, try again.
Have fun,
mmalc.
Paul Lynch
> Are you saying that if a server pushes a content-type header that
> indicates the output is pdf that OmniWeb can deal with it? Isn't that
> what these Netscape modules are going to do?
No, this isn't required on NeXTSTEP; desirable, but not essential.
> NetSurfer contrains you in it's bookmarks though doesn't it? ie. you
> are only allowed a fixed number of items at any particular tab "level"
> I much prefer the approach by Lighthouse with heirarchical organiser.
Sure. The shelf metaphor is undeniably attractive though, and is a useful
adjunct to bookmarks. I'd rather see a pasteboard app that does this in a
generalised way, though. Cue OpenStep fot Mach?
Peter-john Byrnes
<m.cra...@dcs.shef.ac.uk> writes:
>Could somebody please explain to me the advantages of NetScape over,
>say, NetSurfer or OmniWeb?
[Disclaimer: I don't use Netscape, and won't.]
I don't think that there's any advantage in the UI to Netscape, and
indeed, there are a number of features that are lacking or buggy that
can be found in NEXTSTEP browsers. Drag-n-drop images, better
bookmark maintenance (esp. in OmniWeb), more in-line image formats,
excellent print support, a better mailer (chuckle)....it should be
noted, though, that the creation of these features have been
substantially aided by the OS itself -- you have better fonts and a
more secure and robust mailer in NetSurfer because you have these
things in NEXTSTEP.
Still, Netscape does things the other browsers can't. It
incrementally loads images, which makes loading *seem* faster (ie,
you're not staring at a blank screen), and it also seems to be faster
all-around (although I haven't done benchmarks). NetSurfer still
seems to take forever to load a reasonably complicated page, by my
mental stopwatch; OmniWeb seems faster, but Netscape, on similar
hardware down the hall, seems faster yet.
And, of course, the main thing that Netscape does and the other
browsers don't is interpret Netscape's largely proprietary extensions
to HTML. Marc Andreesen clearly has no patience with standards
committees, and has also taken his marketing lessons from Microsoft,
so that the formula (substantial marketshare) + (ongoing proprietary
extensions to a standard) = (sustained substantial marketshare) is
probably written on the wall at Netscape. So, people using Netscape
browswers are currently able to see "neat" features on web pages that
I currently can't. Moreover, Netscapers will *always* be able to see
features that I currently can't, because every time Netscape releases
a new version of its browser that extends the language, hordes of
adolescents throw down the latest issue of *Wired*, whip up a home
page that heavily uses these extensions, and then emblazon at its top:
"This page will only work with the latest version of Netscape. Click
here to download it." And the folks at Omnigroup and Netsurfer (and
Spyglass, etc.) will have to go back and update their browsers to meet
this defacto standard, while we wait.
It's a maddening situation, especially as so many of the Netscape
extensions are so stupid as regards the SGML origins of the language
(I had started referring to Netscape's HTML as HTML++, but too many
people I spoke to thought that was a compliment.). We should also
remember, though, that it was Andreesen's hack of HTML that gave us
the IMG tag back when he was at NCSA, and although we can argue about
the implemented structure of the tag (it would have been more
appropriate to have it be <img></img>), that impatient hack of the
standard has done more to generate interest in the Web than anything
else.
--pete.
Henry McGilton
<g...@eclipse.its.rpi.edu> wrote:
* John Dawson <jda...@tkg.com> wrote:
* > The rate of progress Netscape has made has been fast enough that
* > I'd say it was decent (though not stunning) even if they were
* > developing pure NEXTSTEP apps. But given that it was a
* > multi-platform thing (for God's sake it even runs under WINDOWS!)
* > I think it was a Herculean achievement.
*
* backing up earlier comments from John Dawson (jda...@tkg.com):
* > :
* > : > You seem unimpressed from a technical standpoint with what
* > : > Netscape has achieved. But consider the timeframe in which
* > : > they've done what they've done.
* > : >
* > : >Apr 1994 - Company founded
* > : >Sep 1994 - Announces Navigator
* > : >Oct 1994 - Navigator beta
* > : >Dec 1994 - Navigator ships
* > : >Sep 1995 - Announces next generation of products
* > : >Sep 1995 - (should happen this week) Beta versions of new
* > : > stuff to be available
* > : >
* > : >Hardly a sluggish rate of development.
*
* While I agree Navigator has progressed rapidly, the above should
* be clarified a bit. While the *company* may have started in April
* of 1994, the people who made up the company were the same ones who
* had worked on Mosaic at NCSA for quite some time before that.
* They were quite familiar with what the web was about well before
* April 1994. And they were also quite familiar with writing
Agreed. I can create a similar table for the growth of Sun
Microsystems:
February 22 1982 --- Company Founded
May 1982 --- First Product Shipped
October 1982 --- First million-dollar month
and so on. That doesn't take into account the couple of
years Andy Bechtolsheim worked on the prototype Sun
system at Stanford.
........ Henry
mmalcolm crawford
> you are only allowed a fixed number of items at any particular tab
> "level"
>
You can (now) set the number of tabs you want in Preferences.
You can resize the shelf area.
Things don't have to be on a shelf to be in the bookmarks, so you can have a
large number of refernces even though you don't have space for all the
icons.
Although I prefer NetSurfer overall, though, I do prefer OmniWeb's bookmark
system's functionality (I think Jeff knows this! :-)
Have fun,
mmalc.
Ken Pelletier
> Actually, JAVA does render WebObjects and WebRex redundent, since JAVA
> applets may be linked to external C/C++ object code to do things like
> read and write external data, etc. I can get at Sybase without the
> overhead and expense of third party software gateway.
>
I think this is a bit of an overstatement, IMHO. Sure, you can link in C/C++
code, and that makes it possible for you to get at your database client
library, for example. But that doesn't get you EOF. It's also important to
make a distinction between using Java on the server side and using it to create
executable content. If you're talking about executable content (Applets,
Netscape's new Java scripting language, etc.) accessing anything outside of the
Java virtual machine (C/C++ libraries) makes little sense - it defeats the goal
of client independence.
That said, I wouldn't be surprised to see Java grow in a direction which makes
it suitable for solving some of the problems that WebObjects/WebRex aim to
solve - maybe fairly soon. I've been using Java and agree that it is very
exciting technology - and is positioned to really take off. I'm anxiously
awaiting delivery of Netscape's new LiveWire Pro product to see what their
Java-based database access kit looks like. I'd be very (pleasantly) surprised
if it approaches the level of EOF/Foundation, though.
> JAVA is a full featured OO programming language; think of all the
> things you do with Obj-C and now imagine that your app, applet or
> object will run on any OS/hardware platform with the free/cheap
> browser. In fact, JAVA and Netscape may deliver the commercial object
> platform that NeXT promised way back when. As far as the language
> itself JAVA is a lot like C++ with all the stupid stuff taken out,
> which is not entirely like Obj-C but these days, close enough.
>
> All that NeXT and ITS offer is server-side access to PDO and
> databases. At this point, WebObjects is old news. 6 months from
> now, it'll be entirely irrelevent to most of the planet.
>
> Tim
- Ken
Ken Pelletier (k...@nika.com)
NiKA Software
1207 W. Newport Ave.
Chicago, IL 60657
Jeff Hallgren
> 0.96, as it happens. 1.22 is a lot better, although I don't think that
> the ftp client is any better than NetSurfer. Having just revisted this
> version (I am checking some pages prepared for a client using OmniWeb,
> NetSurfer, NetScape 1.22 and Mosaic, and I don't like what I am seeing),
> the really big pain with NetScape is that it insists on downloading
> graphics for pages that you have already visited.
>
from cache... It also may be checking with the server to make sure the image hasn't
changed.
---
Jeff Hallgren
jh...@tahiti.umhc.umn.edu (NeXT/MIME Mail OK)
Paul Lynch
> Netscape looks like its reloading from the server but its just
decompressing
> from cache... It also may be checking with the server to make sure the
image hasn't
> changed.
Interesting. It still takes just as long, though :-).
Paul
--
Paul Lynch (NeXTmail)
http://www.plsys.co.uk/~paul
(under construction)