The PC had Firewire first!
EdWIN
want to forget that Apple was embarrassed by the fact that
Firewire appeared in PCs before it did in Macs. Or at best
they'll say that Sony brought it to the consumer market first.
Here's a little dose of the truth:
"Founded in 1994 in Montreal, Canada, Sederta Inc. acquired its
core expertise in the implementation and integration of real-
time communication systems by providing consulting services to
major organizations. In 1995, as it began leveraging its
strength and experience with real-time communication, Sederta
complemented its consulting services by introducing a product-
based activity. The 1394 technology, first introduced by Apple
as the FireWire™ serial bus, proved itself as a provider of high
performance, high speed interconnectivity and real-time
communication between computers, systems and devices. Sederta
began leveraging the 1394 before the technology became the IEEE-
1394 Standard. Upon the standard’s adoption, Sederta started
designing and manufacturing IEEE-1394 hardware (PCI, CPCI, PMC
and VME) and an IEEE-1394 software Application Program
Interface. Soon after, Sederta realized that the communication
interface needs also involved application-related constraints.
As a result, two different product lines were created, each
targeting different specifications of real-time communication
systems."
"VxWorks, QNX, Microsoft Windows NT 4.0 support "
Gee, I don't see any "Macintosh" in that supported systems list,
do you?
-----------------------------------------------------------
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
Alan Baker
<edwin_e_tho...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote:
And this to you constitutes evidence that the PC had FireWire first,
does it?
Are you bright enough to realize that if it constitutes support of your
contention that Serdata doesn't support the MacOS now, then it also must
constitute support of an alternate contention that the Mac doesn't have
FireWire at all.
Are you familiar with the term "reductio ad absurdum" by any chance?
Well in this case what it means is that you've been reduced to an absurd
little punk who doesn't even know when his arguments are completely
foolish.
_And_ who also isn't bright enough to provide specific URL's for his
quotes. The first part of your "evidence" is from:
<http://www.sederta.com/about/about.htm#history>
The last part ("VxWorks, QNX, Microsoft Windows NT 4.0 support ") comes
(I can only speculate) from:
<http://www.sederta.com/product/cartes.htm>
where they talk about what FireWire hardward products they make and on
which operating systems they are supported.
But as I said, that proves nothing. If one company's lack of support for
the Mac OS proves that the Mac couldn't have FireWire _first_, then how
can it possibly not also prove that the Mac still doesn't have FireWire
_now_?
And yet the Mac does have FireWire. It's a puzzling contradiction. I
wonder where the flaw in the argument lies?
Oh yeah, it was Edwin's argument and (like most everything else he
posts) has no relationship to reality.
--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling four feet, move the fireplace from that wall to that
wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you sit in the
bottom of that cupboard."
EdWIN
by Apple as
>the FireWire serial bus..." part. Sounds like Apple had it
first to me.
>Maybe its because they invented it?
Apple was a co-inventor of Firewire. The point is that Firewire
appeared in PCs before it did in Macs. Didn't you bother to
read the thread you're replying to?
Apple was embarassed by the fact that their own technology
appeared in PCs *before* it appeared in Macs.
Here's some more proof:
http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1006-200-337406.html
"Microsoft, Intel, and to a lesser extent, Compaq are trying to
move the industry to use FireWire as a universal interface for
such peripherals such as storage drives, CD-ROM drives, and DVD
drives. That's because FireWire can transfer data at rates of up
to 400 mbps (million bits per second), many times faster than
the 12-mbps rate of Universal Serial Bus (USB) connectors, now
commonly found on newer PCs."
To date, relatively few PC makers have incorporated FireWire-
ready ports into new PCs, while Microsoft only began supporting
it with Windows 98, but that trend is starting to change. Compaq
and Sony recently introduced consumer computers with 1394
connectors, while Silicon Graphics' first Windows-based
workstations are shipping the technology. Compaq has also been
trying to standardize a technology called "Device Bay" for
allowing components of a PC such as CD-ROM and hard disk drives
to be swapped in and out without restarting the system or
opening up the case. To date, efforts have not translated into
shipping products, though.
Apple itself just shipped its first computers with the
technology built-in. And at a recent Macintosh trade show,
manufacturers were showing a slew of FireWire-ready peripherals
from Mac-friendly companies. These companies have licensed
Apple's trademarked FireWire name, probably for a nominal fee,
as a way to help jump start the market for the new gadets."
> Rich
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Before you buy.
EdWIN
>In article <01b957b8...@usw-ex0105-034.remarq.com>, EdWIN
><edwin_e_tho...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>>Some Mac advocates are attempting revisionist history. They
>>want to forget that Apple was embarrassed by the fact that
>>Firewire appeared in PCs before it did in Macs. Or at best
>>they'll say that Sony brought it to the consumer market first.
>>
>>Here's a little dose of the truth:
>>
>>http://www.sederta.com
>>
>>"Founded in 1994 in Montreal, Canada, Sederta Inc. acquired its
>>core expertise in the implementation and integration of real-
>>time communication systems by providing consulting services to
>>major organizations. In 1995, as it began leveraging its
>>strength and experience with real-time communication, Sederta
>>complemented its consulting services by introducing a product-
>>based activity. The 1394 technology, first introduced by Apple
>Well lookee here ------->---^
>
>>as the FireWire™ serial bus, proved itself as a provider of
high
>>performance, high speed interconnectivity and real-time
>>communication between computers, systems and devices. Sederta
>>began leveraging the 1394 before the technology became the
IEEE-
>>1394 Standard. Upon the standard’s adoption, Sederta started
>>designing and manufacturing IEEE-1394 hardware (PCI, CPCI, PMC
>>and VME) and an IEEE-1394 software Application Program
>>Interface. Soon after, Sederta realized that the communication
>>interface needs also involved application-related constraints.
>>As a result, two different product lines were created, each
>>targeting different specifications of real-time communication
>>systems."
>>
>>"VxWorks, QNX, Microsoft Windows NT 4.0 support "
>>
>>Gee, I don't see any "Macintosh" in that supported systems
list,
>>do you?
>
instead,
>though it's no exactly clear what they're saying.
They're saying they've been putting Firewire into computers
since 1995, and none of those computers are Macs. Is that clear
enough?
>--
>Mark A Ritchie
>http://members.home.net/knowbodies/index.html
Alan Baker
<edwin_e_tho...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote:
Actually, no. They're saying that they've been providing tools and
hardware that others can use to create _specialized_ aftermarket,
application-specific uses of FireWire technology since 1995.
They don't even produce FireWire cards that the average user can use to
connect peripherals. Their hardware (and software) is being used to
create interconnects between computers using different bus architectures
such as PCI, VME and sBus and has essentially nothing to do with the
adoption of FireWire by personal computers.
EdWIN
What do you think Firwire devices for NT in 1995 were?
>It seems that this thread is misnamed then. Either that or
you've set a
>new usenet record on how quickly a thread can change it's
subject (like
>before it's posted).
Not at all.
>Oh heck, maybe you're just an idiot.
You are an idiot, no maybes about it.
EdWIN
>In article <01b957b8...@usw-ex0105-034.remarq.com>, EdWIN
><edwin_e_tho...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Some Mac advocates are attempting revisionist history. They
>> want to forget that Apple was embarrassed by the fact that
>> Firewire appeared in PCs before it did in Macs. Or at best
>> they'll say that Sony brought it to the consumer market first.
>>
>> Here's a little dose of the truth:
>>
>> http://www.sederta.com
>>
>> "Founded in 1994 in Montreal, Canada, Sederta Inc. acquired
its
>> core expertise in the implementation and integration of real-
>> time communication systems by providing consulting services to
>> major organizations. In 1995, as it began leveraging its
>> strength and experience with real-time communication, Sederta
>> complemented its consulting services by introducing a product-
>> based activity. The 1394 technology, first introduced by Apple
high
>> performance, high speed interconnectivity and real-time
>> communication between computers, systems and devices. Sederta
>> began leveraging the 1394 before the technology became the
IEEE-
>> 1394 Standard. Upon the standard’s adoption, Sederta started
>> designing and manufacturing IEEE-1394 hardware (PCI, CPCI, PMC
>> and VME) and an IEEE-1394 software Application Program
>> Interface. Soon after, Sederta realized that the communication
>> interface needs also involved application-related constraints.
>> As a result, two different product lines were created, each
>> targeting different specifications of real-time communication
>> systems."
>>
>> "VxWorks, QNX, Microsoft Windows NT 4.0 support "
>>
>> Gee, I don't see any "Macintosh" in that supported systems
list,
>> do you?
>
You mean in a thread that you'll fill with your obfuscation and
snip as "redundant?" How did your question negate what I posted?
>Oh, wait, I
>know. If you did that, your strawman would be even more obvious.
Yet another misuse of the phrase "strawman."
>--
>This universe shipped by weight, not volume. Some expansion
may have
>occurred during shipment.
>
>ZnU <z...@znu.dhs.org> | <http://znu.dhs.org>
Alan Baker
Irby <ci...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
>EdWIN <edwin_e_tho...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Some Mac advocates are attempting revisionist history. They
>> want to forget that Apple was embarrassed by the fact that
>> Firewire appeared in PCs before it did in Macs. Or at best
>> they'll say that Sony brought it to the consumer market first.
>>
>> Here's a little dose of the truth:
>
>Not really. Just you flailing around and hoping you have a point.
>
>You don't.
>
>> http://www.sederta.com
>>
>> "Founded in 1994 in Montreal, Canada, Sederta Inc. acquired its
>> core expertise in the implementation and integration of real-
>> time communication systems by providing consulting services to
>> major organizations. In 1995, as it began leveraging its
>> strength and experience with real-time communication, Sederta
>> complemented its consulting services by introducing a product-
>> based activity. The 1394 technology, first introduced by Apple
>> as the FireWire™ serial bus, proved itself as a provider of high
>> performance, high speed interconnectivity and real-time
>> communication between computers, systems and devices.
>
>"First introduced by Apple."
>
>> Sederta began leveraging the 1394 before the technology became the
>> IEEE- 1394 Standard.
>
>They issued a press release.
>
>> Upon the standard’s adoption, Sederta started
>> designing and manufacturing IEEE-1394 hardware (PCI, CPCI, PMC
>> and VME) and an IEEE-1394 software Application Program
>> Interface. Soon after, Sederta realized that the communication
>> interface needs also involved application-related constraints.
>> As a result, two different product lines were created, each
>> targeting different specifications of real-time communication
>> systems."
>>
>> "VxWorks, QNX, Microsoft Windows NT 4.0 support "
>>
>> Gee, I don't see any "Macintosh" in that supported systems list,
>> do you?
>
>And you also don't see a particular date that shows when they actually
>*produced* their first FireWire products.
>
>They started designing and manufacturing IEEE-1394 hardware after the
>standard was adopted. Guess who started designing and making FireWire
>hardware *before* the standard was adopted, when it was just known as
>FireWire?
>
>The first FireWire card was built by Adaptec, which mass-produced the
>card for Apple's desktop machines. This was in early/mid 1995. Later
>that year, Sony came out with the VX-1000 camcorder, which was the first
>camera to have FireWire. In late 1995, FireWire was adopted as Standard
>IEEE-1394 by the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers. In
>March of 1996, Adaptec started selling their FireWire cards as
>aftermarket products.
>
>After all of this, the company you've quoted above decided to get into
>the business, and started designing cards for FireWire.
>
>In 1997, Sony decided to put FireWire on their computers, and installed
>it on the motherboards of several machines (including the 505 laptops,
>in 1998). In early 1999, Apple built FireWire into the motherboards of
>the new blue-and-white G3 Macs.
The hilarious part is that AFAICT, they only produce FireWire products
for extremely specialized applications. You couldn't actually walk into
Computer City and buy a Sederta FireWire card.
EdWIN
>In article <01b957b8...@usw-ex0105-034.remarq.com>, EdWIN
><edwin_e_tho...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>>Some Mac advocates are attempting revisionist history. They
>>want to forget that Apple was embarrassed by the fact that
>>Firewire appeared in PCs before it did in Macs. Or at best
>>they'll say that Sony brought it to the consumer market first.
>>
>>Here's a little dose of the truth:
>>
>>
>>"Founded in 1994 in Montreal, Canada, Sederta Inc. acquired its
>>core expertise in the implementation and integration of real-
>>time communication systems by providing consulting services to
>>major organizations. In 1995, as it began leveraging its
>>strength and experience with real-time communication, Sederta
>>complemented its consulting services by introducing a product-
>>based activity. The 1394 technology, first introduced by Apple
>>as the FireWire™ serial bus, proved itself as a provider of
high
>>performance, high speed interconnectivity and real-time
>>began leveraging the 1394 before the technology became the
IEEE-
>>designing and manufacturing IEEE-1394 hardware (PCI, CPCI, PMC
>>and VME) and an IEEE-1394 software Application Program
>>Interface. Soon after, Sederta realized that the communication
>>interface needs also involved application-related constraints.
>>As a result, two different product lines were created, each
>>targeting different specifications of real-time communication
>>systems."
>>
>>"VxWorks, QNX, Microsoft Windows NT 4.0 support "
>>
>>Gee, I don't see any "Macintosh" in that supported systems
list,
>>do you?
>
first,
>does it?
And to all normal people as well. I've posted other evidence
into other threads tonight.
>Are you bright enough to realize that if it constitutes support
of your
>contention that Serdata doesn't support the MacOS now, then it
also must
>constitute support of an alternate contention that the Mac
doesn't have
>FireWire at all.
My connection is that Serdata begin putting Firewire into PCs in
1995, and it wasn't in Macs as of 1997. My connection is that
Firewire was in PCs first, and Firewire peripherals appeared for
the PC first, and this reference (among others) proves it.
>Are you familiar with the term "reductio ad absurdum" by any
chance?
>Well in this case what it means is that you've been reduced to
an absurd
>little punk who doesn't even know when his arguments are
completely
>foolish.
You're just a fool, Alan. What ever comes from your sick
twisted little mind is just crap, and is seen as crap.
>_And_ who also isn't bright enough to provide specific URL's
for his
>quotes. The first part of your "evidence" is from:
>
><http://www.sederta.com/about/about.htm#history>
>
>The last part ("VxWorks, QNX, Microsoft Windows NT 4.0
support ") comes
>(I can only speculate) from:
>
><http://www.sederta.com/product/cartes.htm>
>
>where they talk about what FireWire hardward products they make
and on
>which operating systems they are supported.
My, so I did provide enough information for even an idiot like
you to see what I quoted is true.
>But as I said, that proves nothing. If one company's lack of
support for
>the Mac OS proves that the Mac couldn't have FireWire _first_,
then how
>can it possibly not also prove that the Mac still doesn't have
FireWire
>_now_?
Who the fsck said the Mac doesn't have Firewire now? Did you
develop a brain tumor? I said the PC had Firewire *first*, not
that the Mac doesn't have it at all. Sheesh! That "one
company" was producing PC Firewire products in 1995! Damn,
you're stupid!
>And yet the Mac does have FireWire. It's a puzzling
contradiction. I
>wonder where the flaw in the argument lies?
The contradiction is within your twisted, freakish personality.
>Oh yeah, it was Edwin's argument and (like most everything else
he
>posts) has no relationship to reality.
Whatever you say, freak.
>--
>Alan Baker
>Vancouver, British Columbia
>"If you raise the ceiling four feet, move the fireplace from
that wall to that
>wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you
sit in the
>bottom of that cupboard."
>
>
-----------------------------------------------------------
EdWIN
>In article <111d4d22...@usw-ex0105-034.remarq.com>, EdWIN
><edwin_e_tho...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>[snip]
Snip that evidence! Way to go! How Mac advocate of you.
>> To date, relatively few PC makers have incorporated FireWire-
>> ready ports into new PCs, while Microsoft only began
supporting
>> it with Windows 98, but that trend is starting to change.
Compaq
>> and Sony recently introduced consumer computers with 1394
>> connectors, while Silicon Graphics' first Windows-based
>> workstations are shipping the technology. Compaq has also been
>> trying to standardize a technology called "Device Bay" for
>> allowing components of a PC such as CD-ROM and hard disk
drives
>> to be swapped in and out without restarting the system or
>> opening up the case. To date, efforts have not translated into
>> shipping products, though.
>
>No shipping products for the PC?
No shipping DEVICE BAY products. Please take some remedial
reading classes.
>> Apple itself just shipped its first computers with the
>> technology built-in. And at a recent Macintosh trade show,
>> manufacturers were showing a slew of FireWire-ready
peripherals
>> from Mac-friendly companies. These companies have licensed
>> Apple's trademarked FireWire name, probably for a nominal fee,
>> as a way to help jump start the market for the new gadets."
>
>Slew of FireWire-ready peripherals for the Mac?
Devices from "Mac-friendly companies" =! devices for the Mac!
>Thanks, Edwin. You've done my research for me.
Too bad you couldn't comprehend it. You had to snip and
misinterpret it. But thanks for admitting that you have no
research to back your blather.
>--
>This universe shipped by weight, not volume. Some expansion
may have
>occurred during shipment.
>
>ZnU <z...@znu.dhs.org> | <http://znu.dhs.org>
>
>
-----------------------------------------------------------
EdWIN
>EdWIN <edwin_e_tho...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Some Mac advocates are attempting revisionist history. They
>> want to forget that Apple was embarrassed by the fact that
>> Firewire appeared in PCs before it did in Macs. Or at best
>> they'll say that Sony brought it to the consumer market first.
>>
>> Here's a little dose of the truth:
>
point.
>
>You don't.
>
>>
>> "Founded in 1994 in Montreal, Canada, Sederta Inc. acquired
its
>> core expertise in the implementation and integration of real-
>> time communication systems by providing consulting services to
>> major organizations. In 1995, as it began leveraging its
>> strength and experience with real-time communication, Sederta
>> complemented its consulting services by introducing a product-
>> based activity. The 1394 technology, first introduced by Apple
>> as the FireWire™ serial bus, proved itself as a provider of
high
>> performance, high speed interconnectivity and real-time
>> communication between computers, systems and devices.
>
And first included in the PC.
>> Sederta began leveraging the 1394 before the technology
became the
>> IEEE- 1394 Standard.
>
>They issued a press release.
You don't "leverage" technology with a press release.
>> Upon the standard’s adoption, Sederta started
>> designing and manufacturing IEEE-1394 hardware (PCI, CPCI, PMC
>> and VME) and an IEEE-1394 software Application Program
>> Interface. Soon after, Sederta realized that the communication
>> interface needs also involved application-related constraints.
>> As a result, two different product lines were created, each
>> targeting different specifications of real-time communication
>> systems."
>>
>> "VxWorks, QNX, Microsoft Windows NT 4.0 support "
>>
>> Gee, I don't see any "Macintosh" in that supported systems
list,
>> do you?
>
>And you also don't see a particular date that shows when they
actually
>*produced* their first FireWire products.
They said they "Sederta began leveraging the 1394 before the
technology became the IEEE- 1394 Standard."
>They started designing and manufacturing IEEE-1394 hardware
after the
>standard was adopted.
Wrong. They said they "Sederta began leveraging the 1394 before
the technology became the IEEE- 1394 Standard."
> Guess who started designing and making FireWire
>hardware *before* the standard was adopted, when it was just
known as
>FireWire?
That would be Serdata. They said they "Sederta began leveraging
the 1394 before the technology became the IEEE- 1394 Standard."
>The first FireWire card was built by Adaptec, which mass-
produced the
>card for Apple's desktop machines. This was in early/mid 1995.
In a reply to ZnU tonight, I quoted a story that said Macs had
no Firewire ports in 1997.
> Later
>that year, Sony came out with the VX-1000 camcorder, which was
the first
>camera to have FireWire. In late 1995, FireWire was adopted as
Standard
>IEEE-1394 by the Institute of Electrical and Electronics
Engineers.
Then let's remember that they said they "Sederta began
leveraging the 1394 before the technology became the IEEE- 1394
Standard."
> In
>March of 1996, Adaptec started selling their FireWire cards as
>aftermarket products.
They said they "Sederta began leveraging the 1394 before the
technology became the IEEE- 1394 Standard." That means before
late 1995 by what you've contributed. Thanks.
>After all of this, the company you've quoted above decided to
get into
>the business, and started designing cards for FireWire.
>
>In 1997, Sony decided to put FireWire on their computers,
In a story I quoted to another thread, Apple had no Firewire
ports in 1997.
>and installed
>it on the motherboards of several machines (including the 505
laptops,
>in 1998). In early 1999, Apple built FireWire into the
motherboards of
>the new blue-and-white G3 Macs.
After it had been in PCs for years.
>--
>
>Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations
will,
>ci...@cfl.rr.com \ for some reason, refer to me as
an "optimist."
EdWIN
>EdWIN <edwin_e_tho...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>> >>http://www.sederta.com
>> >>
>> >>"Founded in 1994 in Montreal, Canada, Sederta Inc. acquired
its
>> >>core expertise in the implementation and integration of
real-
>> >>time communication systems by providing consulting services
to
>> >>major organizations. In 1995, as it began leveraging its
>> >>strength and experience with real-time communication,
Sederta
>> >>complemented its consulting services by introducing a
product-
>> >>based activity. The 1394 technology, first introduced by
Apple
>> >
>> >>Upon the standard’s adoption, Sederta started
>> >>designing and manufacturing IEEE-1394 hardware (PCI, CPCI,
PMC
>> >>and VME) and an IEEE-1394 software Application Program
>> >>Interface.
>>
>> since 1995, and none of those computers are Macs. Is that
clear
>> enough?
>
manufacturing
>FireWire cards, some time after the December 1995 adoption of
FireWire
>by the IEEE as a standard,
No, they said they "Sederta began leveraging the 1394 before the
technology became the IEEE- 1394 Standard."
> and a good six months after Apple started
>selling Macs with FireWire in them.
Apple didn't have any Firewire ports in 1997. I showed that in
a quote to another thread.
>The "1995" in the Sederta quote is when they started to
actually *build*
>things, instead of just consulting on them.
No, they said they "Sederta began leveraging the 1394 before the
technology became the IEEE- 1394 Standard."
EdWIN
>In article <0b38f49a...@usw-ex0105-034.remarq.com>, EdWIN
><edwin_e_tho...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>>>In article <01b957b8...@usw-ex0105-034.remarq.com>,
>>><edwin_e_tho...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Some Mac advocates are attempting revisionist history. They
>>>>want to forget that Apple was embarrassed by the fact that
>>>>Firewire appeared in PCs before it did in Macs. Or at best
>>>>they'll say that Sony brought it to the consumer market
first.
>>>>
>>>>Here's a little dose of the truth:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Founded in 1994 in Montreal, Canada, Sederta Inc. acquired
its
>>>>core expertise in the implementation and integration of real-
>>>>time communication systems by providing consulting services
to
>>>>major organizations. In 1995, as it began leveraging its
>>>>strength and experience with real-time communication, Sederta
>>>>complemented its consulting services by introducing a
product-
>>>>based activity. The 1394 technology, first introduced by
Apple
>>>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>
>>high
>>>>performance, high speed interconnectivity and real-time
>>>>began leveraging the 1394 before the technology became the
>>IEEE-
>>>>designing and manufacturing IEEE-1394 hardware (PCI, CPCI,
PMC
>>>>and VME) and an IEEE-1394 software Application Program
communication
>>>>interface needs also involved application-related
constraints.
>>>>As a result, two different product lines were created, each
>>>>targeting different specifications of real-time communication
>>>>systems."
>>>>
>>>>"VxWorks, QNX, Microsoft Windows NT 4.0 support "
>>>>
>>>>Gee, I don't see any "Macintosh" in that supported systems
>>list,
>>>>do you?
>>>
>>instead,
>>>though it's no exactly clear what they're saying.
>>
>>since 1995, and none of those computers are Macs. Is that
clear
>>enough?
>
and
>hardware that others can use to create _specialized_
aftermarket,
>application-specific uses of FireWire technology since 1995.
Actually, yes. You said the same thing I did, just in more
words. Pedantic to the end, aren't you?
>They don't even produce FireWire cards that the average user
can use to
>connect peripherals. Their hardware (and software) is being
used to
>create interconnects between computers using different bus
architectures
>such as PCI, VME and sBus and has essentially nothing to do
with the
>adoption of FireWire by personal computers.
Their devices are for NT, and in 1995, that could only be a PC.
Thus what I said is proven: Firewire was on the PC first. Other
references I gave in other posts further prove what I said.
>--
>Alan Baker
>Vancouver, British Columbia
>"If you raise the ceiling four feet, move the fireplace from
that wall to that
>wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you
sit in the
>bottom of that cupboard."
>
>
-----------------------------------------------------------
Tim Adams
<edwin_e_tho...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote:
> Chad Irby <ci...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
> >EdWIN <edwin_e_tho...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> >>http://www.sederta.com
> >> >>
> >> >>"Founded in 1994 in Montreal, Canada, Sederta Inc. acquired
> its
> >> >>core expertise in the implementation and integration of
> real-
> >> >>time communication systems by providing consulting services
> to
> >> >>major organizations. In 1995, as it began leveraging its
> >> >>strength and experience with real-time communication,
> Sederta
> >> >>complemented its consulting services by introducing a
> product-
> >> >>based activity. The 1394 technology, first introduced by
> Apple
> >> >
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >> >>Upon the standard’s adoption, Sederta started
> >> >>designing and manufacturing IEEE-1394 hardware (PCI, CPCI,
> PMC
> >> >>and VME) and an IEEE-1394 software Application Program
> >> >>Interface.
> >>
> >> They're saying they've been putting Firewire into computers
> >> since 1995, and none of those computers are Macs. Is that
> clear
> >> enough?
> >
> >No, they're saying that they *started* designing and
> manufacturing
> >FireWire cards, some time after the December 1995 adoption of
> FireWire
> >by the IEEE as a standard,
>
> No, they said they "Sederta began leveraging the 1394 before the
> technology became the IEEE- 1394 Standard."
>
> > and a good six months after Apple started
> >selling Macs with FireWire in them.
>
> Apple didn't have any Firewire ports in 1997. I showed that in
> a quote to another thread.
Apple had no BUILT IT firewire ports in 1997. Add on cards from Apple were
however available a couple of years before that time.
>
> >The "1995" in the Sederta quote is when they started to
> actually *build*
> >things, instead of just consulting on them.
>
> No, they said they "Sederta began leveraging the 1394 before the
> technology became the IEEE- 1394 Standard."
>
>
> >--
> >
> >Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations
> will,
> >ci...@cfl.rr.com \ for some reason, refer to me as
> an "optimist."
> >
> >
>
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
> Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
> Up to 100 minutes free!
> http://www.keen.com
--
Tim
EdWIN
>In article <cirby-BFE567.21195629072000@news-
server.cfl.rr.com>, Chad
>>> want to forget that Apple was embarrassed by the fact that
>>> Firewire appeared in PCs before it did in Macs. Or at best
>>> they'll say that Sony brought it to the consumer market
first.
>>>
>>> Here's a little dose of the truth:
>>
point.
>>
>>You don't.
>>
>>>
>>> "Founded in 1994 in Montreal, Canada, Sederta Inc. acquired
its
>>> core expertise in the implementation and integration of real-
>>> time communication systems by providing consulting services
to
>>> major organizations. In 1995, as it began leveraging its
>>> strength and experience with real-time communication, Sederta
>>> complemented its consulting services by introducing a
product-
>>> based activity. The 1394 technology, first introduced by
Apple
high
>>> performance, high speed interconnectivity and real-time
>>> communication between computers, systems and devices.
>>
>>
>>> Sederta began leveraging the 1394 before the technology
became the
>>> IEEE- 1394 Standard.
>>
>>
>>> designing and manufacturing IEEE-1394 hardware (PCI, CPCI,
PMC
>>> and VME) and an IEEE-1394 software Application Program
communication
>>> interface needs also involved application-related
constraints.
>>> As a result, two different product lines were created, each
>>> targeting different specifications of real-time communication
>>> systems."
>>>
>>> "VxWorks, QNX, Microsoft Windows NT 4.0 support "
>>>
>>> Gee, I don't see any "Macintosh" in that supported systems
list,
>>> do you?
>>
actually
>>*produced* their first FireWire products.
>>
after the
FireWire
>>hardware *before* the standard was adopted, when it was just
known as
>>FireWire?
>>
produced the
>>card for Apple's desktop machines. This was in early/mid
>>that year, Sony came out with the VX-1000 camcorder, which was
the first
>>camera to have FireWire. In late 1995, FireWire was adopted
as Standard
>>IEEE-1394 by the Institute of Electrical and Electronics
>>March of 1996, Adaptec started selling their FireWire cards as
>>aftermarket products.
>>
get into
>>the business, and started designing cards for FireWire.
>>
installed
>>it on the motherboards of several machines (including the 505
laptops,
>>in 1998). In early 1999, Apple built FireWire into the
motherboards of
>>the new blue-and-white G3 Macs.
>
products
>for extremely specialized applications. You couldn't actually
walk into
>Computer City and buy a Sederta FireWire card.
Serdata has produced Firewire products for the PC since 1995.
That's well before Apple had them, and it wasn't just consumer
products as was falsely claimed in another thread. Consumer
products were shipping before 1997 for the PC, as I showed in
references posted to other threads. Halarious indeed.
>--
>Alan Baker
>Vancouver, British Columbia
>"If you raise the ceiling four feet, move the fireplace from
that wall to that
>wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you
sit in the
>bottom of that cupboard."
>
>
-----------------------------------------------------------
Phil B
<edwin_e_tho...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote:
> Alan Baker <Alan_...@bc.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> >In article <0b38f49a...@usw-ex0105-034.remarq.com>, EdWIN
> ><edwin_e_tho...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >>Mark Ritchie <knowb...@spamblock.home.com> wrote:
> >>>In article <01b957b8...@usw-ex0105-034.remarq.com>,
> EdWIN
> >>><edwin_e_tho...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>Some Mac advocates are attempting revisionist history. They
> >>>>want to forget that Apple was embarrassed by the fact that
> >>>>Firewire appeared in PCs before it did in Macs. Or at best
> >>>>they'll say that Sony brought it to the consumer market
> first.
> >>>>
> >>>>Here's a little dose of the truth:
> >>>>
> >>>>http://www.sederta.com
> >>>>
> >>>>"Founded in 1994 in Montreal, Canada, Sederta Inc. acquired
> its
> >>>>core expertise in the implementation and integration of real-
> >>>>time communication systems by providing consulting services
> to
> >>>>major organizations. In 1995, as it began leveraging its
> >>>>strength and experience with real-time communication, Sederta
> >>>>complemented its consulting services by introducing a
> product-
> >>>>based activity. The 1394 technology, first introduced by
> Apple
> >>>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >>>Well lookee here ------->---^
> >>>
> >>>>as the FireWire™ serial bus, proved itself as a provider of
> >>high
> >>>>performance, high speed interconnectivity and real-time
> >>>>communication between computers, systems and devices. Sederta
> >>>>began leveraging the 1394 before the technology became the
> >>IEEE-
> >>>>1394 Standard. Upon the standard’s adoption, Sederta started
> >>>>designing and manufacturing IEEE-1394 hardware (PCI, CPCI,
> PMC
> >>>>and VME) and an IEEE-1394 software Application Program
> >>>>Interface. Soon after, Sederta realized that the
> communication
> >>>>interface needs also involved application-related
> constraints.
> >>>>As a result, two different product lines were created, each
> >>>>targeting different specifications of real-time communication
> >>>>systems."
> >>>>
> >>>>"VxWorks, QNX, Microsoft Windows NT 4.0 support "
> >>>>
> >>>>Gee, I don't see any "Macintosh" in that supported systems
> >>list,
> >>>>do you?
> >>>
> >>>You're right. Serdata seems to be giving credit to Apple
> >>instead,
> >>>though it's no exactly clear what they're saying.
> >>
> >>They're saying they've been putting Firewire into computers
> >>since 1995, and none of those computers are Macs. Is that
> clear
> >>enough?
> >
> >Actually, no. They're saying that they've been providing tools
> and
> >hardware that others can use to create _specialized_
> aftermarket,
> >application-specific uses of FireWire technology since 1995.
>
> Actually, yes. You said the same thing I did, just in more
> words. Pedantic to the end, aren't you?
>
> >They don't even produce FireWire cards that the average user
> can use to
> >connect peripherals. Their hardware (and software) is being
> used to
> >create interconnects between computers using different bus
> architectures
> >such as PCI, VME and sBus and has essentially nothing to do
> with the
> >adoption of FireWire by personal computers.
>
> Their devices are for NT, and in 1995, that could only be a PC.
> Thus what I said is proven: Firewire was on the PC first. Other
> references I gave in other posts further prove what I said.
>
Actually, it seems rather doubtful that "Microsoft Windows NT 4.0 support"
was available in 1995 (unless it was for a very, very early beta release
of an OS that didn't even ship until August 1996....), although Firewire
devices for VxWorks and QNX may very well have been there by then.
In any event, you still have not proven that Sederta's Firewire products
were available in 1995 before Adaptec's Firewire card for the Mac was
available in 1995, EdWIN.
> >--
> >Alan Baker
> >Vancouver, British Columbia
> >"If you raise the ceiling four feet, move the fireplace from
> that wall to that
> >wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you
> sit in the
> >bottom of that cupboard."
> >
> >
>
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
> Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
> Up to 100 minutes free!
> http://www.keen.com
Cheers,
rtro...@my-deja.com
EdWIN <edwin_e_tho...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote:
> Some Mac advocates are attempting revisionist history. They
> want to forget that Apple was embarrassed by the fact that
> Firewire appeared in PCs before it did in Macs. Or at best
> they'll say that Sony brought it to the consumer market first.
>
> Here's a little dose of the truth:
>
> http://www.sederta.com
>
> "Founded in 1994 in Montreal, Canada, Sederta Inc. acquired its
> core expertise in the implementation and integration of real-
> time communication systems by providing consulting services to
> major organizations. In 1995, as it began leveraging its
> strength and experience with real-time communication, Sederta
> complemented its consulting services by introducing a product-
> based activity. The 1394 technology, first introduced by Apple
> performance, high speed interconnectivity and real-time
> communication between computers, systems and devices. Sederta
> began leveraging the 1394 before the technology became the IEEE-
> 1394 Standard. Upon the standard’s adoption, Sederta started
> designing and manufacturing IEEE-1394 hardware (PCI, CPCI, PMC
> and VME) and an IEEE-1394 software Application Program
> Interface. Soon after, Sederta realized that the communication
> interface needs also involved application-related constraints.
> As a result, two different product lines were created, each
> targeting different specifications of real-time communication
> systems."
>
> "VxWorks, QNX, Microsoft Windows NT 4.0 support "
>
> Gee, I don't see any "Macintosh" in that supported systems list,
> do you?
No, but I did note that "The 1394 technology, first introduced by Apple as
the FireWire serial bus..." part. Sounds like Apple had it first to me.
Maybe its because they invented it?
Rich
Mark Ritchie
<edwin_e_tho...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote:
>Some Mac advocates are attempting revisionist history. They
>want to forget that Apple was embarrassed by the fact that
>Firewire appeared in PCs before it did in Macs. Or at best
>they'll say that Sony brought it to the consumer market first.
>
>Here's a little dose of the truth:
>
>http://www.sederta.com
>
>"Founded in 1994 in Montreal, Canada, Sederta Inc. acquired its
>core expertise in the implementation and integration of real-
>time communication systems by providing consulting services to
>major organizations. In 1995, as it began leveraging its
>strength and experience with real-time communication, Sederta
>complemented its consulting services by introducing a product-
>based activity. The 1394 technology, first introduced by Apple
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Well lookee here ------->---^
>as the FireWire™ serial bus, proved itself as a provider of high
>performance, high speed interconnectivity and real-time
>communication between computers, systems and devices. Sederta
>began leveraging the 1394 before the technology became the IEEE-
>1394 Standard. Upon the standard’s adoption, Sederta started
>designing and manufacturing IEEE-1394 hardware (PCI, CPCI, PMC
>and VME) and an IEEE-1394 software Application Program
>Interface. Soon after, Sederta realized that the communication
>interface needs also involved application-related constraints.
>As a result, two different product lines were created, each
>targeting different specifications of real-time communication
>systems."
>
>"VxWorks, QNX, Microsoft Windows NT 4.0 support "
>
>Gee, I don't see any "Macintosh" in that supported systems list,
>do you?
You're right. Serdata seems to be giving credit to Apple instead,
though it's no exactly clear what they're saying.
--
ZnU
<edwin_e_tho...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote:
> Some Mac advocates are attempting revisionist history. They
> want to forget that Apple was embarrassed by the fact that
> Firewire appeared in PCs before it did in Macs. Or at best
> they'll say that Sony brought it to the consumer market first.
>
> Here's a little dose of the truth:
>
> http://www.sederta.com
>
> "Founded in 1994 in Montreal, Canada, Sederta Inc. acquired its
> core expertise in the implementation and integration of real-
> time communication systems by providing consulting services to
> major organizations. In 1995, as it began leveraging its
> strength and experience with real-time communication, Sederta
> complemented its consulting services by introducing a product-
> based activity. The 1394 technology, first introduced by Apple
> as the FireWire™ serial bus, proved itself as a provider of high
> performance, high speed interconnectivity and real-time
> communication between computers, systems and devices. Sederta
> began leveraging the 1394 before the technology became the IEEE-
> 1394 Standard. Upon the standard’s adoption, Sederta started
> designing and manufacturing IEEE-1394 hardware (PCI, CPCI, PMC
> and VME) and an IEEE-1394 software Application Program
> Interface. Soon after, Sederta realized that the communication
> interface needs also involved application-related constraints.
> As a result, two different product lines were created, each
> targeting different specifications of real-time communication
> systems."
>
> "VxWorks, QNX, Microsoft Windows NT 4.0 support "
>
> Gee, I don't see any "Macintosh" in that supported systems list,
> do you?
Gee, why don't you argue your point in the relevant thread? Oh, wait, I
know. If you did that, your strawman would be even more obvious.
--
ZnU
<edwin_e_tho...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote:
[snip]
> To date, relatively few PC makers have incorporated FireWire-
> ready ports into new PCs, while Microsoft only began supporting
> it with Windows 98, but that trend is starting to change. Compaq
> and Sony recently introduced consumer computers with 1394
> connectors, while Silicon Graphics' first Windows-based
> workstations are shipping the technology. Compaq has also been
> trying to standardize a technology called "Device Bay" for
> allowing components of a PC such as CD-ROM and hard disk drives
> to be swapped in and out without restarting the system or
> opening up the case. To date, efforts have not translated into
> shipping products, though.
No shipping products for the PC?
> Apple itself just shipped its first computers with the
> technology built-in. And at a recent Macintosh trade show,
> manufacturers were showing a slew of FireWire-ready peripherals
> from Mac-friendly companies. These companies have licensed
> Apple's trademarked FireWire name, probably for a nominal fee,
> as a way to help jump start the market for the new gadets."
Slew of FireWire-ready peripherals for the Mac?
Thanks, Edwin. You've done my research for me.
--
Chad Irby
> Some Mac advocates are attempting revisionist history. They
> want to forget that Apple was embarrassed by the fact that
> Firewire appeared in PCs before it did in Macs. Or at best
> they'll say that Sony brought it to the consumer market first.
>
> Here's a little dose of the truth:
Not really. Just you flailing around and hoping you have a point.
You don't.
>
> "Founded in 1994 in Montreal, Canada, Sederta Inc. acquired its
> core expertise in the implementation and integration of real-
> time communication systems by providing consulting services to
> major organizations. In 1995, as it began leveraging its
> strength and experience with real-time communication, Sederta
> complemented its consulting services by introducing a product-
> based activity. The 1394 technology, first introduced by Apple
> as the FireWire™ serial bus, proved itself as a provider of high
> performance, high speed interconnectivity and real-time
> communication between computers, systems and devices.
"First introduced by Apple."
> Sederta began leveraging the 1394 before the technology became the
> IEEE- 1394 Standard.
They issued a press release.
> Upon the standard’s adoption, Sederta started
> designing and manufacturing IEEE-1394 hardware (PCI, CPCI, PMC
> and VME) and an IEEE-1394 software Application Program
> Interface. Soon after, Sederta realized that the communication
> interface needs also involved application-related constraints.
> As a result, two different product lines were created, each
> targeting different specifications of real-time communication
> systems."
>
> "VxWorks, QNX, Microsoft Windows NT 4.0 support "
>
> Gee, I don't see any "Macintosh" in that supported systems list,
> do you?
And you also don't see a particular date that shows when they actually
*produced* their first FireWire products.
They started designing and manufacturing IEEE-1394 hardware after the
standard was adopted. Guess who started designing and making FireWire
hardware *before* the standard was adopted, when it was just known as
FireWire?
The first FireWire card was built by Adaptec, which mass-produced the
card for Apple's desktop machines. This was in early/mid 1995. Later
that year, Sony came out with the VX-1000 camcorder, which was the first
camera to have FireWire. In late 1995, FireWire was adopted as Standard
IEEE-1394 by the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers. In
March of 1996, Adaptec started selling their FireWire cards as
aftermarket products.
After all of this, the company you've quoted above decided to get into
the business, and started designing cards for FireWire.
In 1997, Sony decided to put FireWire on their computers, and installed
it on the motherboards of several machines (including the 505 laptops,
in 1998). In early 1999, Apple built FireWire into the motherboards of
the new blue-and-white G3 Macs.
--
Chad Irby
> Apple was embarassed by the fact that their own technology
> appeared in PCs *before* it appeared in Macs.
Actually, the post below proves that Apple had it first.
> Here's some more proof:
>
> http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1006-200-337406.html
>
(snipped intro paragraph)
> To date, relatively few PC makers have incorporated FireWire-
> ready ports into new PCs, while Microsoft only began supporting
> it with Windows 98, but that trend is starting to change. Compaq
> and Sony recently introduced consumer computers with 1394
> connectors,
Note that the date on this story is January, 1999. "Recently" means
1998.
> Apple itself just shipped its first computers with the
> technology built-in.
^^^^^^^^ (as opposed to residing on a PCI card)
This would be the Power Mac G3 "Blue and White" models. This is about
three and a half years after Apple introduced FireWire as an option (a
PCI card) on their desktop machines.
Thanks for proving my point.
Chad Irby
> >>http://www.sederta.com
> >>
> >>"Founded in 1994 in Montreal, Canada, Sederta Inc. acquired its
> >>core expertise in the implementation and integration of real-
> >>time communication systems by providing consulting services to
> >>major organizations. In 1995, as it began leveraging its
> >>strength and experience with real-time communication, Sederta
> >>complemented its consulting services by introducing a product-
> >>based activity. The 1394 technology, first introduced by Apple
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >>Upon the standard’s adoption, Sederta started
> >>designing and manufacturing IEEE-1394 hardware (PCI, CPCI, PMC
> >>and VME) and an IEEE-1394 software Application Program
> >>Interface.
>
> They're saying they've been putting Firewire into computers
> since 1995, and none of those computers are Macs. Is that clear
> enough?
No, they're saying that they *started* designing and manufacturing
FireWire cards, some time after the December 1995 adoption of FireWire
by the IEEE as a standard, and a good six months after Apple started
selling Macs with FireWire in them.
The "1995" in the Sederta quote is when they started to actually *build*
things, instead of just consulting on them.
--
Mark Ritchie
<edwin_e_tho...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote:
>Mark Ritchie <knowb...@spamblock.home.com> wrote:
>>In article <01b957b8...@usw-ex0105-034.remarq.com>, EdWIN
>><edwin_e_tho...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>Some Mac advocates are attempting revisionist history. They
>>>want to forget that Apple was embarrassed by the fact that
>>>Firewire appeared in PCs before it did in Macs. Or at best
>>>they'll say that Sony brought it to the consumer market first.
>>>
>>>Here's a little dose of the truth:
>>>
>>>http://www.sederta.com
>>>
>>>"Founded in 1994 in Montreal, Canada, Sederta Inc. acquired its
>>>core expertise in the implementation and integration of real-
>>>time communication systems by providing consulting services to
>>>major organizations. In 1995, as it began leveraging its
>>>strength and experience with real-time communication, Sederta
>>>complemented its consulting services by introducing a product-
>>>based activity. The 1394 technology, first introduced by Apple
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>Well lookee here ------->---^
>>
>>>as the FireWire™ serial bus, proved itself as a provider of
>high
>>>performance, high speed interconnectivity and real-time
>>>communication between computers, systems and devices. Sederta
>>>began leveraging the 1394 before the technology became the
>IEEE-
>>>1394 Standard. Upon the standard’s adoption, Sederta started
>>>designing and manufacturing IEEE-1394 hardware (PCI, CPCI, PMC
>>>and VME) and an IEEE-1394 software Application Program
>>>Interface. Soon after, Sederta realized that the communication
>>>interface needs also involved application-related constraints.
>>>As a result, two different product lines were created, each
>>>targeting different specifications of real-time communication
>>>systems."
>>>
>>>"VxWorks, QNX, Microsoft Windows NT 4.0 support "
>>>
>>>Gee, I don't see any "Macintosh" in that supported systems
>list,
>>>do you?
>>
>>You're right. Serdata seems to be giving credit to Apple
>instead,
>>though it's no exactly clear what they're saying.
>
>They're saying they've been putting Firewire into computers
>since 1995, and none of those computers are Macs. Is that clear
>enough?
But it doesn't say "The PC had Firewire first!".
It seems that this thread is misnamed then. Either that or you've set a
new usenet record on how quickly a thread can change it's subject (like
before it's posted).
Oh heck, maybe you're just an idiot.
--
Mark Ritchie
<edwin_e_tho...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote:
<snip>
>>>>>Gee, I don't see any "Macintosh" in that supported systems
>>>list,
>>>>>do you?
>>>>
>>>>You're right. Serdata seems to be giving credit to Apple
>>>instead,
>>>>though it's no exactly clear what they're saying.
>>>
>>>They're saying they've been putting Firewire into computers since
>>>1995, and none of those computers are Macs. Is that clear enough?
>>
>>But it doesn't say "The PC had Firewire first!".
>
>What do you think Firwire devices for NT in 1995 were?
From the looks of the information you've provided, it was in early
development. Perhaps you should read the replies of others before
responding again.
>>It seems that this thread is misnamed then. Either that or you've
>>set a new usenet record on how quickly a thread can change it's
>>subject (like before it's posted).
>
>Not at all.
I guess usenet just wouldn't be usenet if the subject line agreed with
the content.
>>Oh heck, maybe you're just an idiot.
>
>You are an idiot, no maybes about it.
Aw, thanks Edwin. Coming from you, I know how much that means.
ZnU
<edwin_e_tho...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote:
> ZnU <z...@znu.dhs.org> wrote:
> >In article <111d4d22...@usw-ex0105-034.remarq.com>, EdWIN
> ><edwin_e_tho...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >[snip]
>
> Snip that evidence! Way to go! How Mac advocate of you.
Snip evidence of what, Edwin?
> >> To date, relatively few PC makers have incorporated FireWire-
> >> ready ports into new PCs, while Microsoft only began supporting it
> >> with Windows 98, but that trend is starting to change. Compaq and
> >> Sony recently introduced consumer computers with 1394 connectors,
> >> while Silicon Graphics' first Windows-based workstations are
> >> shipping the technology. Compaq has also been trying to
> >> standardize a technology called "Device Bay" for allowing
> >> components of a PC such as CD-ROM and hard disk drives to be
> >> swapped in and out without restarting the system or opening up the
> >> case. To date, efforts have not translated into shipping products,
> >> though.
> >
> >No shipping products for the PC?
>
> No shipping DEVICE BAY products. Please take some remedial reading
> classes.
The paragraph is totally ambiguous.
You certainly haven't disproven my "lie" that virtually all the early
Firewire computer peripherals were for the Mac. In fact, you're
providing supporting evidence.
> >> Apple itself just shipped its first computers with the technology
> >> built-in. And at a recent Macintosh trade show, manufacturers were
> >> showing a slew of FireWire-ready peripherals from Mac-friendly
> >> companies. These companies have licensed Apple's trademarked
> >> FireWire name, probably for a nominal fee, as a way to help jump
> >> start the market for the new gadets."
> >
> >Slew of FireWire-ready peripherals for the Mac?
>
> Devices from "Mac-friendly companies" =! devices for the Mac!
Are you claiming that these Mac-friendly companies were at a Mac
tradeshow showing PC Firewire devices? Have you lost your mind? You
don't have to answer.
> >Thanks, Edwin. You've done my research for me.
>
> Too bad you couldn't comprehend it. You had to snip and misinterpret
> it. But thanks for admitting that you have no research to back your
> blather.
More of your usual absurd accusations. A sure sign you're losing again,
as anyone who follows your posts knows.
ZnU
<edwin_e_tho...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote:
> ZnU <z...@znu.dhs.org> wrote:
> >In article <01b957b8...@usw-ex0105-034.remarq.com>, EdWIN
> ><edwin_e_tho...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> Some Mac advocates are attempting revisionist history. They want
> >> to forget that Apple was embarrassed by the fact that Firewire
> >> appeared in PCs before it did in Macs. Or at best they'll say
> >> that Sony brought it to the consumer market first.
> >>
> >> Here's a little dose of the truth:
> >>
> >> http://www.sederta.com
> >>
> >> "Founded in 1994 in Montreal, Canada, Sederta Inc. acquired its
> >> core expertise in the implementation and integration of real- time
> >> communication systems by providing consulting services to major
> >> organizations. In 1995, as it began leveraging its strength and
> >> experience with real-time communication, Sederta complemented its
> >> consulting services by introducing a product- based activity. The
> >> 1394 technology, first introduced by Apple as the FireWire™ serial
> >> bus, proved itself as a provider of high performance, high speed
> >> interconnectivity and real-time communication between computers,
> >> systems and devices. Sederta began leveraging the 1394 before the
> >> technology became the IEEE- 1394 Standard. Upon the standard’s
> >> adoption, Sederta started designing and manufacturing IEEE-1394
> >> hardware (PCI, CPCI, PMC and VME) and an IEEE-1394 software
> >> Application Program Interface. Soon after, Sederta realized that
> >> the communication interface needs also involved
> >> application-related constraints. As a result, two different
> >> product lines were created, each targeting different
> >> specifications of real-time communication systems."
> >>
> >> "VxWorks, QNX, Microsoft Windows NT 4.0 support "
> >>
> >> Gee, I don't see any "Macintosh" in that supported systems list,
> >> do you?
> >
> >Gee, why don't you argue your point in the relevant thread?
>
> You mean in a thread that you'll fill with your obfuscation and snip
> as "redundant?" How did your question negate what I posted?
Nobody was claiming that Apple included Firewire ports before any PC
makers. What people were claiming was that it was Apple's inclusion of
Firewire ports that actually got device makers making devices. You
apparently realized this was correct, and in a typical attempt to save
face, built a foolish strawman and attacked a statement nobody had made.
Ironically, you haven't even done a particularly good job of disproving
your own strawman.
> >Oh, wait, I know. If you did that, your strawman would be even more
> >obvious.
>
> Yet another misuse of the phrase "strawman."
Add to your shopping list:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0877797099/o/qid=964929864/sr=8-1/
ref=aps_sr_b_1_3/103-9946790-4438221
Chad Irby
> Serdata has produced Firewire products for the PC since 1995.
False.
In your own quotes, they mention that they didn;t start design work on
the thing until *after* it became a standard. And if you think they
could design, build, test, and ramp up production on a FireWire card in
the last nineteen days of 1995 (FireWire became a standard on Dec 12,
1995), you're hallucinating even more than you usually do.
Chad Irby
> >> Sederta began leveraging the 1394 before the technology
> became the
> >> IEEE- 1394 Standard.
>
> They said they "Sederta began leveraging the 1394 before the
> technology became the IEEE- 1394 Standard."
>
> Wrong. They said they "Sederta began leveraging the 1394 before
> the technology became the IEEE- 1394 Standard."
>
> That would be Serdata. They said they "Sederta began leveraging
> the 1394 before the technology became the IEEE- 1394 Standard."
> Engineers.
>
> Then let's remember that they said they "Sederta began
> leveraging the 1394 before the technology became the IEEE- 1394
> Standard."
>
> They said they "Sederta began leveraging the 1394 before the
> technology became the IEEE- 1394 Standard." That means before
> late 1995 by what you've contributed. Thanks.
You have some weird idea of what "leveraging" means.
In marketing terms, it means they put out a press release, and told
their customers that they were interested in the idea. It doesn't mean
that they did anything at all other than that, and since they also said,
in the same press release, that they didn't start designing or building
their cards until *after* the acceptance of the IEEE-1394 standard (AKA
"FireWire"), that means that they didn't start work on actual design
until some time after December 12, 1995.
Chad Irby
<edwin_e_tho...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote:
> Chad Irby <ci...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
> >EdWIN <edwin_e_tho...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> >>http://www.sederta.com
> >> >>Upon the standard’s adoption, Sederta started designing and
> >> >>manufacturing IEEE-1394 hardware (PCI, CPCI, PMC and VME) and an
> >> >>IEEE-1394 software Application Program Interface.
> >
> >No, they're saying that they *started* designing and manufacturing
> >FireWire cards, some time after the December 1995 adoption of
> >FireWire by the IEEE as a standard,
>
> No, they said they "Sederta began leveraging the 1394 before the
> technology became the IEEE- 1394 Standard."
"Leveraging" is one of those nice little terms which means pretty much
nothing in the grand scheme of things.
> > and a good six months after Apple started
> >selling Macs with FireWire in them.
>
> Apple didn't have any Firewire ports in 1997. I showed that in
> a quote to another thread.
Not on the motherboard. They did, however, offer the FireWire card as a
factory option. Whatever you thought you showed in some other thread is
obviously wrong.
> >The "1995" in the Sederta quote is when they started to actually
> >*build* things, instead of just consulting on them.
>
> No, they said they "Sederta began leveraging the 1394 before the
> technology became the IEEE- 1394 Standard."
Do you know what "leveraging" means?
It's market-speak for "we started talking about it to our customers."
Here's the relevant quote:
> >> >>Upon the standard’s adoption, Sederta started designing and
> >> >>manufacturing IEEE-1394 hardware (PCI, CPCI, PMC and VME) and an
> >> >>IEEE-1394 software Application Program Interface.
In other words, they *started* work on the actual hardware after it had
already been named as a standard, a good six months after it was
available on Apple machines.
Alan Baker
<edwin_e_tho...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote:
>Alan Baker <Alan_...@bc.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>In article <01b957b8...@usw-ex0105-034.remarq.com>, EdWIN
>><edwin_e_tho...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>Some Mac advocates are attempting revisionist history. They
>>>want to forget that Apple was embarrassed by the fact that
>>>Firewire appeared in PCs before it did in Macs. Or at best
>>>they'll say that Sony brought it to the consumer market first.
>>>
>>>Here's a little dose of the truth:
>>>
>>>http://www.sederta.com
>>>
>>>"Founded in 1994 in Montreal, Canada, Sederta Inc. acquired its
>>>core expertise in the implementation and integration of real-
>>>time communication systems by providing consulting services to
>>>major organizations. In 1995, as it began leveraging its
>>>strength and experience with real-time communication, Sederta
>>>complemented its consulting services by introducing a product-
>>>based activity. The 1394 technology, first introduced by Apple
>>>as the FireWire™ serial bus, proved itself as a provider of
>high
>>>performance, high speed interconnectivity and real-time
>>>communication between computers, systems and devices. Sederta
>>>began leveraging the 1394 before the technology became the
>IEEE-
>>>1394 Standard. Upon the standard’s adoption, Sederta started
>>>designing and manufacturing IEEE-1394 hardware (PCI, CPCI, PMC
>>>and VME) and an IEEE-1394 software Application Program
>>>Interface. Soon after, Sederta realized that the communication
>>>interface needs also involved application-related constraints.
>>>As a result, two different product lines were created, each
>>>targeting different specifications of real-time communication
>>>systems."
>>>
>>>"VxWorks, QNX, Microsoft Windows NT 4.0 support "
>>>
>>>Gee, I don't see any "Macintosh" in that supported systems
>list,
>>>do you?
>>
>>And this to you constitutes evidence that the PC had FireWire
>first,
>>does it?
>
>And to all normal people as well. I've posted other evidence
>into other threads tonight.
>
>>Are you bright enough to realize that if it constitutes support
>of your
>>contention that Serdata doesn't support the MacOS now, then it
>also must
>>constitute support of an alternate contention that the Mac
>doesn't have
>>FireWire at all.
>
>My connection is that Serdata begin putting Firewire into PCs in
>1995, and it wasn't in Macs as of 1997. My connection is that
>Firewire was in PCs first, and Firewire peripherals appeared for
>the PC first, and this reference (among others) proves it.
And your so-called connection is completely bogus, because what they
were doing was using FireWire for a completely different use than
providing a general-purpose peripheral interface for personal computers.
They were providing hardware and software that companies could use to
create solutions for real-time data communications between dissimilar
computer bus architectures.
This is as relevant to the Mac vs. PC use of FireWire as a peripheral
interface, as a bicycle is relevant to an elephant as a mode of
transportation.
>
>>Are you familiar with the term "reductio ad absurdum" by any
>chance?
>>Well in this case what it means is that you've been reduced to
>an absurd
>>little punk who doesn't even know when his arguments are
>completely
>>foolish.
>
>You're just a fool, Alan. What ever comes from your sick
>twisted little mind is just crap, and is seen as crap.
>
>>_And_ who also isn't bright enough to provide specific URL's
>for his
>>quotes. The first part of your "evidence" is from:
>>
>><http://www.sederta.com/about/about.htm#history>
>>
>>The last part ("VxWorks, QNX, Microsoft Windows NT 4.0
>support ") comes
>>(I can only speculate) from:
>>
>><http://www.sederta.com/product/cartes.htm>
>>
>>where they talk about what FireWire hardward products they make
>and on
>>which operating systems they are supported.
>
>My, so I did provide enough information for even an idiot like
>you to see what I quoted is true.
You provided enough information so that I could then go and complete
your work for you, yes. Unfortunately, I learned what Sederta actually
makes along the way and it isn't general-purpose FireWire.
>
>>But as I said, that proves nothing. If one company's lack of
>support for
>>the Mac OS proves that the Mac couldn't have FireWire _first_,
>then how
>>can it possibly not also prove that the Mac still doesn't have
>FireWire
>>_now_?
>
>Who the fsck said the Mac doesn't have Firewire now? Did you
>develop a brain tumor? I said the PC had Firewire *first*, not
>that the Mac doesn't have it at all. Sheesh! That "one
>company" was producing PC Firewire products in 1995! Damn,
>you're stupid!
You claim that Sederta's lack of support for the Macintosh supports the
assertion that Macs didn't have FireWire first. Well in that case,
what's changed? If this particular company's lack of Mac support
indicated that Macs didn't have FireWire _then_, there's been no change
in the situation. Therefore logically (a tough concept for you, I know)
the Mac must still lack FireWire. After all Sederta doesn't support it
now either.
>
>>And yet the Mac does have FireWire. It's a puzzling
>contradiction. I
>>wonder where the flaw in the argument lies?
>
>The contradiction is within your twisted, freakish personality.
>
>>Oh yeah, it was Edwin's argument and (like most everything else
>he
>>posts) has no relationship to reality.
>
>Whatever you say, freak.
Pity you can't back up your insults with _anything_ (let alone logical
argument)
Alan Baker
<edwin_e_tho...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote:
>Alan Baker <Alan_...@bc.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>In article <0b38f49a...@usw-ex0105-034.remarq.com>, EdWIN
>><edwin_e_tho...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>Mark Ritchie <knowb...@spamblock.home.com> wrote:
>>>>In article <01b957b8...@usw-ex0105-034.remarq.com>,
>EdWIN
>>>><edwin_e_tho...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Some Mac advocates are attempting revisionist history. They
>>>>>want to forget that Apple was embarrassed by the fact that
>>>>>Firewire appeared in PCs before it did in Macs. Or at best
>>>>>they'll say that Sony brought it to the consumer market
>first.
>>>>>
>>>>>Here's a little dose of the truth:
>>>>>
>>>>>http://www.sederta.com
>>>>>
>>>>>"Founded in 1994 in Montreal, Canada, Sederta Inc. acquired
>its
>>>>>core expertise in the implementation and integration of real-
>>>>>time communication systems by providing consulting services
>to
>>>>>major organizations. In 1995, as it began leveraging its
>>>>>strength and experience with real-time communication, Sederta
>>>>>complemented its consulting services by introducing a
>product-
>>>>>based activity. The 1394 technology, first introduced by
>Apple
>>>>
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>>Well lookee here ------->---^
>>>>
>>>>>as the FireWire™ serial bus, proved itself as a provider of
>>>high
>>>>>performance, high speed interconnectivity and real-time
>>>>>communication between computers, systems and devices. Sederta
>>>>>began leveraging the 1394 before the technology became the
>>>IEEE-
>>>>>1394 Standard. Upon the standard’s adoption, Sederta started
>>>>>designing and manufacturing IEEE-1394 hardware (PCI, CPCI,
>PMC
>>>>>and VME) and an IEEE-1394 software Application Program
>>>>>Interface. Soon after, Sederta realized that the
>communication
>>>>>interface needs also involved application-related
>constraints.
>>>>>As a result, two different product lines were created, each
>>>>>targeting different specifications of real-time communication
>>>>>systems."
>>>>>
>>>>>"VxWorks, QNX, Microsoft Windows NT 4.0 support "
>>>>>
>>>>>Gee, I don't see any "Macintosh" in that supported systems
>>>list,
>>>>>do you?
>>>>
>>>>You're right. Serdata seems to be giving credit to Apple
>>>instead,
>>>>though it's no exactly clear what they're saying.
>>>
>>>They're saying they've been putting Firewire into computers
>>>since 1995, and none of those computers are Macs. Is that
>clear
>>>enough?
>>
>>Actually, no. They're saying that they've been providing tools
>and
>>hardware that others can use to create _specialized_
>aftermarket,
>>application-specific uses of FireWire technology since 1995.
>
>Actually, yes. You said the same thing I did, just in more
>words. Pedantic to the end, aren't you?
Since you seem to use "pedantic" as a synonym for "accurate", yes.
>
>>They don't even produce FireWire cards that the average user
>can use to
>>connect peripherals. Their hardware (and software) is being
>used to
>>create interconnects between computers using different bus
>architectures
>>such as PCI, VME and sBus and has essentially nothing to do
>with the
>>adoption of FireWire by personal computers.
>
>Their devices are for NT, and in 1995, that could only be a PC.
>Thus what I said is proven: Firewire was on the PC first. Other
>references I gave in other posts further prove what I said.
And the devices and software they produced aren't relevant to the
question of FireWire's use as a general-purpose peripheral interface. In
fact, they still aren't today.
Rob Barris
<edwin_e_tho...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote:
> Apple was a co-inventor of Firewire. The point is that Firewire
> appeared in PCs before it did in Macs. Didn't you bother to
> read the thread you're replying to?
>
> Apple was embarassed by the fact that their own technology
> appeared in PCs *before* it appeared in Macs.
>
Simple question:
is "first" important, and just how much?
Think about it first.
Rob
ZnU
Irby <ci...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
> In article <38e2c90c...@usw-ex0105-034.remarq.com>, EdWIN
> <edwin_e_tho...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote:
[snip]
> > Apple didn't have any Firewire ports in 1997. I showed that in
> > a quote to another thread.
>
> Not on the motherboard. They did, however, offer the FireWire card as a
> factory option. Whatever you thought you showed in some other thread is
> obviously wrong.
Another of Edwin's favorite tactics. Start two threads about a similar
topic. Make unfounded statements in each, and insist that you've proven
the statements in the other. I'm amazed and amused he doesn't realize
how transparent he is.
[snip]
C Lund
<ci...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
> > They said they "Sederta began leveraging the 1394 before the
> > technology became the IEEE- 1394 Standard." That means before
> > late 1995 by what you've contributed. Thanks.
> You have some weird idea of what "leveraging" means.
He probably means "leveraging" the way it's done by M$: Shoving it down
peoples' throats.
--
Rob Barris
<edwin_e_tho...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote:
> Apple was a co-inventor of Firewire. The point is that Firewire
> appeared in PCs before it did in Macs. Didn't you bother to
> read the thread you're replying to?
Edwin, assuming you're right for the sake of argument...
Is first important?
Rob
Courageous
I've been wondering that about the subject line since it began.
First is irrelevant. Sometimes "better" is irrelevant.
C/
Alan Baker
Knechtel) wrote:
>EdWIN (edwin_e_tho...@my-deja.com.invalid) wrote:
>: Alan Baker <Alan_...@bc.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>: >In article <0b38f49a...@usw-ex0105-034.remarq.com>, EdWIN
>: ><edwin_e_tho...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote:
><snip>
>: >>They're saying they've been putting Firewire into computers
>: >>since 1995, and none of those computers are Macs. Is that
>: clear
>: >>enough?
>: >
>: >Actually, no. They're saying that they've been providing tools
>: and
>: >hardware that others can use to create _specialized_
>: aftermarket,
>: >application-specific uses of FireWire technology since 1995.
>
>: Actually, yes. You said the same thing I did, just in more
>: words. Pedantic to the end, aren't you?
>
>Yet again, EdWIN demonstrates his reading comprehension problems by
>translating "putting Firewire into computers" as equivalent to "providing
>tools and hardware that others can use to create _specialized_ aftermarket,
>application-specific uses of FireWire technology".
>
>A tool that can be used to create a use of the technology is not a
>product which contains that technology.
>It is therefore not a computer which contains that technology.
>A computer's implementation of FireWire is not specialized, not
>aftermarket and not application-specific. On the contrary, it is as
>general as is possible for the technology (so that you can connect as many
>different types of peripheral as possible via the protocol), and is an
>integral component of the computer.
>
>Got it yet?
Thanks, Karl. You said it better than I could have (given that I've
already been sparring this issue back and forth and frankly, I'm tired
of EdWind and his drivel).
Alan Baker
<ac1d...@juno.com> wrote:
>FOR ALL THOSE NEW TO THIS GROUP, OR THOSE WHO MAY HAVE FORGOTIN.
>
>EDWIN=ALWAYS WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>
As someone once said:
God may not be on the side of the biggest batallions, but it's the way
to bet! So too is it with EdWind and being wrong. <G>
poldy
Rob Barris <rba...@quicksilver.com> wrote:
>In article <111d4d22...@usw-ex0105-034.remarq.com>, EdWIN
><edwin_e_tho...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Apple was a co-inventor of Firewire. The point is that Firewire
>> appeared in PCs before it did in Macs. Didn't you bother to
>> read the thread you're replying to?
>>
>> Apple was embarassed by the fact that their own technology
>> appeared in PCs *before* it appeared in Macs.
>>
>
>Simple question:
>
>is "first" important, and just how much?
>
>Think about it first.
>
Apple wasn't first with USB. But the iMacs popularized USB and helped
create demand for USB devices.
Question is who's gonna make Firewire ubiquitous? I remember there were
Presarios on which you could get Firewire ports in the front, before the
Blue and White G3s came out. But Compaq didn't really whet the appetite
for Firewire did it?
Karl Knechtel
Got it yet?
Karl Knechtel {:>
da728 at torfree dot net
viper
lloyds...@my-deja.com
Alan Baker <Alan_...@bc.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> In article <9B7h5.13091$ci1....@typhoon.kc.rr.com>, "viper"
> <ac1d...@juno.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >EDWIN=ALWAYS WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >
> >
>
>
> God may not be on the side of the biggest batallions, but it's the
way
> to bet! So too is it with EdWind and being wrong. <G>
I've come to the conclusion that he will take anything, no matter how
ambiguous and, not knowing what some of the polysyllabic words mean,
transform it into this APPLE DID NOT DO XXXXXX or SEE HOW STUPID APPLE
PEOPLE ARE. Then when faced with the truth of the matter, flip-flop
around like a fish on a hook.
Truth is, he would rather argue than be right. Which is frequently all
he does. No doubt he would argue that 19 was an even number if Apple
said it was odd.
L
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
EdWIN
>FOR ALL THOSE NEW TO THIS GROUP, OR THOSE WHO MAY HAVE FORGOTIN.
>
>EDWIN=ALWAYS WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
working and trustworthy. He's competent in his work, and lots
of fun to be around after work. He knows a lot about computers,
and many other things as well.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
EdWIN
>In article <150cc31b...@usw-ex0105-034.remarq.com>, EdWIN
><edwin_e_tho...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>> >In article <01b957b8...@usw-ex0105-034.remarq.com>,
EdWIN
>> ><edwin_e_tho...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Some Mac advocates are attempting revisionist history.
They want
Firewire
>> >> appeared in PCs before it did in Macs. Or at best
they'll say
>> >> that Sony brought it to the consumer market first.
>> >>
>> >> Here's a little dose of the truth:
>> >>
>> >> http://www.sederta.com
>> >>
>> >> "Founded in 1994 in Montreal, Canada, Sederta Inc.
acquired its
>> >> core expertise in the implementation and integration of
real- time
>> >> communication systems by providing consulting services to
major
>> >> organizations. In 1995, as it began leveraging its
strength and
>> >> experience with real-time communication, Sederta
complemented its
>> >> consulting services by introducing a product- based
activity. The
FireWire™ serial
>> >> bus, proved itself as a provider of high performance, high
speed
>> >> interconnectivity and real-time communication between
computers,
before the
>> >> technology became the IEEE- 1394 Standard. Upon the
standard’s
>> >> adoption, Sederta started designing and manufacturing IEEE-
1394
>> >> hardware (PCI, CPCI, PMC and VME) and an IEEE-1394
software
>> >> Application Program Interface. Soon after, Sederta
realized that
>> >> the communication interface needs also involved
>> >> application-related constraints. As a result, two
different
>> >> product lines were created, each targeting different
>> >> specifications of real-time communication systems."
>> >>
>> >> "VxWorks, QNX, Microsoft Windows NT 4.0 support "
>> >>
>> >> Gee, I don't see any "Macintosh" in that supported systems
list,
>> >> do you?
>> >
>>
>> You mean in a thread that you'll fill with your obfuscation
and snip
>> as "redundant?" How did your question negate what I posted?
>
>Nobody was claiming that Apple included Firewire ports before
any PC
>makers.
PC makers included Firewire ports because there were devices to
use them.
>What people were claiming was that it was Apple's inclusion of
>Firewire ports that actually got device makers making devices.
Which is false. Firewire ports and Firewire devices were in use
in PCs *before* they were in Macs, and that doesn't just mean
camcorders, as I have proven.
>You
>apparently realized this was correct, and in a typical attempt
to save
>face, built a foolish strawman and attacked a statement nobody
>had made.
Firewire ports were in use in PCs *long* before they were in
Macs. Those ports need devices to be in use. Thus I have
proven that the statement "there were no Fire devices until the
Mac included Firewire" to be false. It was that statement that
I "attacked," not the statement that "Firewire ports weren't in
PCs first." You're right, nobody said that, and that isn't what
I disputed.
Since I started another thread, you just moved your obfuscation
and snipping over here.
>Ironically, you haven't even done a particularly good job of
disproving
>your own strawman.
>
>> >Oh, wait, I know. If you did that, your strawman would be
even more
>> >obvious.
>>
>> Yet another misuse of the phrase "strawman."
>
>Add to your shopping list:
>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0877797099/o/qid=96492986
4/sr=8-1/
>ref=aps_sr_b_1_3/103-9946790-4438221
What's that for, a dictionary? You're the guy who needs it.
>--
>This universe shipped by weight, not volume. Some expansion
may have
>occurred during shipment.
>
>ZnU <z...@znu.dhs.org> | <http://znu.dhs.org>
>
>
-----------------------------------------------------------
Chad Irby
> Which is false. Firewire ports and Firewire devices were in use
> in PCs *before* they were in Macs, and that doesn't just mean
> camcorders, as I have proven.
Edwin, this is just a plain old dumb lie, and you know it.
Find a PC that had FireWire in 1995.
The only thing you've found was a company that kinda started thinking
about FireWire six months after Apple started putting it in machines as
a factory option, and a couple of Sony models that came out three years
later.
EdWIN
>In article <cirby-5BC375.03303630072000@news->> In article <38e2c90c...@usw-ex0105-034.remarq.com>,
EdWIN
>> <edwin_e_tho...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>> > Apple didn't have any Firewire ports in 1997. I showed
that in
>> > a quote to another thread.
>>
>> Not on the motherboard. They did, however, offer the
FireWire card as a
>> factory option. Whatever you thought you showed in some
other thread is
>> obviously wrong.
>
>Another of Edwin's favorite tactics. Start two threads about a
similar
>topic. Make unfounded statements in each, and insist that
you've proven
>the statements in the other. I'm amazed and amused he doesn't
realize
>how transparent he is.
I'm amazed you can lie so freely. I gave numerous URL
references and quotes in *both* of those threads. Now you're
libeling me with this.
A favorite "tactic" of yours is to simply snip out
whatever "foundation" I supply, then replace it with your
paraphrases and misconceptions and to generally attempt to put
your words in my mouth. This is a true example of a "strawman
argument," where you've set up a strawman to topple in the place
of my arguments.
>[snip]
ZnU
<edwin_e_tho...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote:
> ZnU <z...@znu.dhs.org> wrote:
> >In article <cirby-5BC375.03303630072000@news- server.cfl.rr.com>,
> >Chad Irby <ci...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
> >
> >> In article <38e2c90c...@usw-ex0105-034.remarq.com>, EdWIN
> >> <edwin_e_tho...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >[snip]
> >
> >> > Apple didn't have any Firewire ports in 1997. I showed that in
> >> > a quote to another thread.
> >>
> >> Not on the motherboard. They did, however, offer the FireWire
> >> card as a factory option. Whatever you thought you showed in some
> >> other thread is obviously wrong.
> >
> >Another of Edwin's favorite tactics. Start two threads about a
> >similar topic. Make unfounded statements in each, and insist that
> >you've proven the statements in the other. I'm amazed and amused he
> >doesn't realize how transparent he is.
>
> I'm amazed you can lie so freely. I gave numerous URL references and
> quotes in *both* of those threads. Now you're libeling me with this.
You gave no URL references at all. See
http://x69.deja.com/=dnc/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=652725509 for proof.
> A favorite "tactic" of yours is to simply snip out whatever
> "foundation" I supply, then
[snip]
ZnU
<edwin_e_tho...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote:
> PC makers included Firewire ports because there were devices to use
> them.
Wrong.
> >What people were claiming was that it was Apple's inclusion of
> >Firewire ports that actually got device makers making devices.
>
> Which is false. Firewire ports and Firewire devices were in use in
> PCs *before* they were in Macs, and that doesn't just mean
> camcorders, as I have proven.
Incorrect.
> >You apparently realized this was correct, and in a typical attempt
> >to save face, built a foolish strawman and attacked a statement
> >nobody had made.
>
> Firewire ports were in use in PCs *long* before they were in Macs.
> Those ports need devices to be in use. Thus I have proven that the
> statement "there were no Fire devices until the Mac included
> Firewire" to be false. It was that statement that I "attacked," not
> the statement that "Firewire ports weren't in PCs first." You're
> right, nobody said that, and that isn't what I disputed.
Your thread title disagrees.
Rob Barris
> In article <111d4d22...@usw-ex0105-034.remarq.com>, EdWIN
> <edwin_e_tho...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote:
>
> > Apple was a co-inventor of Firewire. The point is that Firewire
> > appeared in PCs before it did in Macs. Didn't you bother to
> > read the thread you're replying to?
> >
> > Apple was embarassed by the fact that their own technology
> > appeared in PCs *before* it appeared in Macs.
> >
>
> Simple question:
>
> is "first" important, and just how much?
>
Note: no response.
Rob
Rob Barris
Rob Barris <rba...@quicksilver.com> wrote:
> In article <111d4d22...@usw-ex0105-034.remarq.com>, EdWIN
> <edwin_e_tho...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote:
>
> > Apple was a co-inventor of Firewire. The point is that Firewire
> > appeared in PCs before it did in Macs. Didn't you bother to
> > read the thread you're replying to?
>
> Edwin, assuming you're right for the sake of argument...
>
> Is first important?
Note: no response.
Rob
EdWIN
>In article <rbarris-
776B78.024...@news.irvn1.occa.home.com>,
>Rob Barris <rba...@quicksilver.com> wrote:
>
>> In article <111d4d22...@usw-ex0105-034.remarq.com>,
EdWIN
>> <edwin_e_tho...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> > Apple was a co-inventor of Firewire. The point is that
Firewire
>> > appeared in PCs before it did in Macs. Didn't you bother to
>> > read the thread you're replying to?
>> >
>> > appeared in PCs *before* it appeared in Macs.
>> >
>>
>> Simple question:
>>
>> is "first" important, and just how much?
>>
>
>Note: no response.
Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you were waiting for a response from
the Mac advocates who brag about what Apple did first.
They said that there were no Firewire devices until Apple put
Firewire into Macs. So it is important to point out it was in
the PC first.
>Rob
Tim Adams
<edwin_e_tho...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote:
> Rob Barris <rba...@quicksilver.com> wrote:
> >In article <rbarris-
> 776B78.024...@news.irvn1.occa.home.com>,
> >Rob Barris <rba...@quicksilver.com> wrote:
> >
> >> In article <111d4d22...@usw-ex0105-034.remarq.com>,
> EdWIN
> >> <edwin_e_tho...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Apple was a co-inventor of Firewire. The point is that
> Firewire
> >> > appeared in PCs before it did in Macs. Didn't you bother to
> >> > read the thread you're replying to?
> >> >
> >> > Apple was embarassed by the fact that their own technology
> >> > appeared in PCs *before* it appeared in Macs.
> >> >
> >>
> >> Simple question:
> >>
> >> is "first" important, and just how much?
> >>
> >
> >Note: no response.
>
> Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you were waiting for a response from
> the Mac advocates who brag about what Apple did first.
>
> They said that there were no Firewire devices until Apple put
> Firewire into Macs. So it is important to point out it was in
> the PC first.
Available as an add card on for Mac's first - built into PC motherboards first.
Get a life.
>
> >Rob
> >
> >
>
>
>
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--
Tim