Long Term Hard Drive Storage
Justin
camcorders I can store the tape for over a decade without a problem. I
have proven this with old 8mm tapes recorded in 1987, and stuck in a
Digital8 camera and Firewired into a PC ad a DV file. There I was at 9
years old.
Stunning.
So for 21 years sitting in a damn cellar, an old analog tape survived.
Apparently new digital tapes will fare better. So I'm guessing the next
time I really checkout the stuff I'm recording to MiniDV will be the
2025 or thereabouts.
AVCHD camcorders don't use tapes as we all know. Would copying the
footage to a portable Firewire/ESATA/USB2 hard drive and storing that
enclosure for a few decades be feasible? How well do hard drives last
when they're not being used? Will the magnetic information deteriorate?
What about magnetic fields?
What if one took a portable enclosure, stuffed a 200GB drive in there,
filled it with his AVCHD footage, stuck it in the factory box, with a
few Silica gel packs, maybe wrapped it with one of those lead liners
that look like trash bags and stored it (properly labeled of course)?
Is that idea stupid?
Forget about cost for now.
Rod Speed
> So I was looking at AVCHD cameras the other day. With my current
> MiniDV camcorders I can store the tape for over a decade without a
> problem. I have proven this with old 8mm tapes recorded in 1987, and
> stuck in a Digital8 camera and Firewired into a PC ad a DV file.
> There I was at 9 years old.
> Stunning.
> So for 21 years sitting in a damn cellar, an old analog tape survived.
> Apparently new digital tapes will fare better. So I'm guessing the
> next time I really checkout the stuff I'm recording to MiniDV will be
> the 2025 or thereabouts.
> AVCHD camcorders don't use tapes as we all know. Would
> copying the footage to a portable Firewire/ESATA/USB2 hard
> drive and storing that enclosure for a few decades be feasible?
Yep. And writing that stuff to both a hard drive and DVDs maximises your chances.
> How well do hard drives last when they're not being used?
They last fine.
> Will the magnetic information deteriorate?
Nope.
> What about magnetic fields?
Same thing.
> What if one took a portable enclosure, stuffed a 200GB drive in there,
> filled it with his AVCHD footage, stuck it in the factory box, with a
> few Silica gel packs, maybe wrapped it with one of those lead liners
> that look like trash bags and stored it (properly labeled of course)?
Thats a bit of overkill with the wrapping.
> Is that idea stupid?
Nope, very viable.
Justin
Damn, that was fast!
Follow up questions... would using a laptop drive be a better idea
since they are designed to take a certain amount of abuse?
Just speaking about a worst case scenario... how strong a magnetic field
Rod Speed
If you're likely to be a bit rough with it.
> Just speaking about a worst case scenario... how strong a magnetic field
Not clear what you are asking there, maybe the post got sent before it was complete.
Arno Wagner
> So I was looking at AVCHD cameras the other day. With my current MiniDV
> camcorders I can store the tape for over a decade without a problem. I
> have proven this with old 8mm tapes recorded in 1987, and stuck in a
> Digital8 camera and Firewired into a PC ad a DV file. There I was at 9
> years old.
> Stunning.
> So for 21 years sitting in a damn cellar, an old analog tape survived.
> Apparently new digital tapes will fare better. So I'm guessing the next
> time I really checkout the stuff I'm recording to MiniDV will be the
> 2025 or thereabouts.
> AVCHD camcorders don't use tapes as we all know. Would copying the
> footage to a portable Firewire/ESATA/USB2 hard drive and storing that
> enclosure for a few decades be feasible?
Depends. You might run itdo component limitations, like capacitor
lifetime (5-10 years), lubrrication fluid increasing its viscosity
(no idea) and the like. HDDs are not removable media designed
for long-term storage.
> How well do hard drives last when they're not being used?
I think "unknown" is accurate information here.
> Will the magnetic information deteriorate?
That should not be an issue.
> What about magnetic fields?
Again not an issue.
> What if one took a portable enclosure, stuffed a 200GB drive in there,
> filled it with his AVCHD footage, stuck it in the factory box, with a
> few Silica gel packs, maybe wrapped it with one of those lead liners
> that look like trash bags and stored it (properly labeled of course)?
See above.
> Is that idea stupid?
Not stupid, but with a lot of unknowns.
> Forget about cost for now.
Then I would strongly advise using archival tape or MOD.
Both have known long-term aging characteristics.
Arno
Al Dykes
Make two and keep one off-site.
IMO, the chance of a properly stored disk drive dying are down there
with losing it in a house fire.
Even if the chances are miniscule, it happens to *somebody*.
--
Al Dykes
News is something someone wants to suppress, everything else is advertising.
- Lord Northcliffe, publisher of the Daily Mail
Al Dykes
Unless you take the disk into the MRI exam with you, magnetic fields
are no more a problem with an unused drive than they are for a drive
inside your computer.
As for shock, unpowered disks are more shock resistant than you think.
Look you the detail spec sheet on the manufacturer's web site, you'll
find 100Gs or more acceptable.
Don't use a cheap safe. The cheap "2 hour" safe is made for saving
paper documents. It works by chemical reaction in a fire. It soaks the
papers with hot moisture that would probably kill the electronics on
the disk.
Justin
Yes it did.
Strange.
My question was; how strong a magnetic field would be needed to erase
the contents of a hard drive?
The poster below me (Al) said something about an MRI and we know that's
strong - stronger than anything that would happen inside the average
American home.
Except maybe an EMP blast... in which case I don't give a rat's ass
about my home videos I'll be looking for food. When civilization gets
back on its feet my DVD backup-backups will be fine.
Rod Speed
Its easy to do by hitting the wrong key when typing.
> My question was; how strong a magnetic field would
> be needed to erase the contents of a hard drive?
Much stronger than you will ever see.
> The poster below me (Al) said something about an MRI
> and we know that's strong - stronger than anything that
> would happen inside the average American home.
Yep, and laptops survive those fine in airports etc.
> Except maybe an EMP blast... in which case I don't give a rat's ass
> about my home videos I'll be looking for food. When civilization gets
> back on its feet my DVD backup-backups will be fine.
Yep. And likely the hard drive will be too.
Franc Zabkar
<Jus...@NobecauseIhatespam.net> put finger to keyboard and composed:
>So I was looking at AVCHD cameras the other day. With my current MiniDV
>camcorders I can store the tape for over a decade without a problem. I
>have proven this with old 8mm tapes recorded in 1987, and stuck in a
>Digital8 camera and Firewired into a PC ad a DV file. There I was at 9
>years old.
>Stunning.
>So for 21 years sitting in a damn cellar, an old analog tape survived.
>Apparently new digital tapes will fare better.
I wouldn't rely on tape, even in digital format, as this medium is
vulnerable to mechanical damage.
>So I'm guessing the next
>time I really checkout the stuff I'm recording to MiniDV will be the
>2025 or thereabouts.
Can you guarantee that equipment to read your tapes will still exist,
or be repairable, in 2025?
>AVCHD camcorders don't use tapes as we all know. Would copying the
>footage to a portable Firewire/ESATA/USB2 hard drive and storing that
>enclosure for a few decades be feasible? How well do hard drives last
>when they're not being used? Will the magnetic information deteriorate?
> What about magnetic fields?
>
>What if one took a portable enclosure, stuffed a 200GB drive in there,
>filled it with his AVCHD footage, stuck it in the factory box, with a
>few Silica gel packs, maybe wrapped it with one of those lead liners
>that look like trash bags and stored it (properly labeled of course)?
I recently tried to read an old Quantum 120MB HD that was working fine
when I put it away in my cupboard many years ago. Now I'm seeing a
whole bunch of read errors.
>Is that idea stupid?
>Forget about cost for now.
I would make several archival copies in different formats. As new
technology arrives and becomes cost effective (eg 50GB dual layer
Blu-ray), I would migrate my old archives to the technology. If you
have any analogue media, convert the contents to digital ASAP.
I think your HDD idea is fine, but I wouldn't rely on it.
- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.
iws
news:ft6tim$8jg$1...@aioe.org...
I'm not sure I'd trust any mechanical gizmo after sitting for a couple of
decades. What's wrong with recording to DVD's and recopying every few years.
Migrate to new technology as it becomes established. For example, if and
when Blue Ray becomes fully established, migrate to that. There will always
be a lengthy transition to new technology and in many cases, the same device
will be fully compatible with both old and new - e.g. CD/DVD writers. Many
current Blue Ray writers will write to CD and DVD. Hell, you can still buy
floppy drives that work in today's PC's and that technology is more than a
quarter century old. Keep in mind that you're talking digital recording and
copying with no real loss of information after many copies.
Justin
I understand the whole "copy as time goes on" and you're correct, that
is the best solution.
But, as life goes on schedules get bitter and after a while that sort of
thing slips through the cracks. I should change my air filter on the
central air system. Its just "one of those things" that should get
done, but never does.
When I took a class trip in 1994 I took those 8mm tapes and stored them.
I graduated high shcool in 1995, went to college and around 1999 I ran
into a group of people from the trip. I promised I would convert all
those tapes to VHS and we could all meet and have a "Europe 1994" party.
What happened? Finals. Internship. Summer accelerated classes.
Streaking. Personal issues. Dad's bypass. Basically life gets in the
way of things that matter.
In 2003 the same thing happened. I ran into the teacher who organized
the trip back then. I said I would edit the tapes and convert them to DVD.
Never happened. What DID happen? My Masters degree. More accelerated
classes. A lousy job that sends me to horrible places.
Fast forward again to February 2008. I run into the same teacher. Said
the same thing, convert to DVD blah blah... I got a false start because
Sony Vegas decided to putz out on me. I was reduced to Movie Maker.
Didn't get done... What happened? My decision to get out of I.T. and
into Accounting. Now for the next two years nothing but accounting
classes starting mid April.
So this time I got it done. I have all the edited DV files ready to by
written to DVD. I also have the DV files saved to my archival hard
drive and MiniDV.
Dave
> What if one took a portable enclosure, stuffed a 200GB drive in there,
> filled it with his AVCHD footage, stuck it in the factory box, with a
> few Silica gel packs, maybe wrapped it with one of those lead liners
> that look like trash bags and stored it (properly labeled of course)?
>
> Is that idea stupid?
> Forget about cost for now.
I think your biggest issue would be:
1) Finding something to read the hard disk or DVD. In a few decades
time, I doubt it will be easy to find something to read a SATA disk, in
much the same way as you would have a very hard time finding a computer
to read an 8" floppy disk. Same goes for a DVD storage - do you really
believe in a few decades time anything will read a DVD?
The SCSI interface has to date been more stable than any other.
2) Decay of electrolytic capacitors is likely to be an isssue.
3) I assume the most likely things you would want to keep over decades
would be photographs. Experience has shown images in stone have lasted
thousands of years. Getting the images carved into stone or metal would
probably be best.
4) Getting images painted by an artist would be very good and not
particularly expensive. We know many paintings have lasted centuries.
Not as long as stone/metal to date, but more practical and gives better
colour information.
5) Experience has shown many photographs have lasted well when using wet
chemistry - silver based photographic medium.
5) Nobody really knows how well digital data will store. My suggestions
for the best chance would be to
i) Keep on a few different media - optical, magnetic.
ii) Transfer it to current technology every 5-10 years. Keep the old
media anyway.
iii) Keep data in different locations.
iv) I dont think external magnetic fields would be an issue at all, but
I know mu-metal would be more suitable than lead for that purpose. But
that really would be the last of your worries.
v) I used to work developing protection systems for nuclear
electromagnetic pulse. I am aware the aim would be to explode a bomb
that would damage electronics, but not kill people. So after an EMP
strike, food might not be the issue you suspect.
On the assumption you want to store photographs, I suggest
stone > oil painting > photographs > digital storeage.
In principle, digital storage would not degrade over time, but I think
the chances of the images lasting in practice is a lot less than with
phtographs or oil painting.
Al Dykes
Franc Zabkar <fza...@iinternode.on.net> wrote:
>On Sat, 05 Apr 2008 00:01:15 -0400, Justin
><Jus...@NobecauseIhatespam.net> put finger to keyboard and composed:
>
>>So I was looking at AVCHD cameras the other day. With my current MiniDV
>>camcorders I can store the tape for over a decade without a problem. I
>>have proven this with old 8mm tapes recorded in 1987, and stuck in a
>>Digital8 camera and Firewired into a PC ad a DV file. There I was at 9
>>years old.
>>Stunning.
>>So for 21 years sitting in a damn cellar, an old analog tape survived.
>>Apparently new digital tapes will fare better.
>
>I wouldn't rely on tape, even in digital format, as this medium is
>vulnerable to mechanical damage.
And unless you a are dealing with professional tape equipment, the
chances of getting a compatible drive hardware and restore application
that works on a machine you own years from is close to zero.
Tape storage lifetime has it's own issues. I know in the past, the
manufacturer quoted 10 years under controlled conditions.
Arno Wagner
> In article <c1rfv31t8r7aic1lm...@4ax.com>,
> Franc Zabkar <fza...@iinternode.on.net> wrote:
>>On Sat, 05 Apr 2008 00:01:15 -0400, Justin
>><Jus...@NobecauseIhatespam.net> put finger to keyboard and composed:
>>
>>>So I was looking at AVCHD cameras the other day. With my current MiniDV
>>>camcorders I can store the tape for over a decade without a problem. I
>>>have proven this with old 8mm tapes recorded in 1987, and stuck in a
>>>Digital8 camera and Firewired into a PC ad a DV file. There I was at 9
>>>years old.
>>>Stunning.
>>>So for 21 years sitting in a damn cellar, an old analog tape survived.
>>>Apparently new digital tapes will fare better.
>>
>>I wouldn't rely on tape, even in digital format, as this medium is
>>vulnerable to mechanical damage.
> And unless you a are dealing with professional tape equipment, the
> chances of getting a compatible drive hardware and restore application
> that works on a machine you own years from is close to zero.
> Tape storage lifetime has it's own issues. I know in the past, the
> manufacturer quoted 10 years under controlled conditions.
Tape has the advantaghe, that its characteristics are very well known.
If you use professional archival tape, it will live as long
as the manufacturer claims.
As to restore application, use GNU tar. It has been around 30
years or so, and it will still be arounf in 50. For the data
format itself, again use simple, well documented formats. ASCII,
gif/TIFF/png, PostScript, html. It may be a good idea to include
source code for converters. Stay away from any closed and/or
complicated format, such as all the Microsoft File formats.
Using them is asking to pay a huge amount to have them
professionally converted. (And I have been tempted to prepare
a company that does this for a long time now. Just so boring....)
Arno
Al Dykes
Good points, all, with the addition that the backup has to be done
with tar, also.
Tar can also be used to backup to CD/DVD media. As Arno says, a tar
saveset will be understood for as long as anyone cares to care about
it.
Thought has to be given to the file formats of the files in the tar
saveset. One advantage of software over hardware is that it can run on
furure machines with just a little on the part of some programmer.
Whatever you do, test test test. Try to restore on a machine as
unlike yours as possible. A Windows tar backup can be tested on a MAC
or a Unix box.
Emulation is a big win for archivists. It's safe to say that even
after x86 hardware is found only in museums, all versions of Microsoft
Windows will be running nicely in emulation much faster than it does
natively, today.
Al Dykes
MOD = Magneto-Optical Disk.
This was the gold standard for archival storage when I worked at
BigBank, which was up to 1993. We had lots in storage in Iron
Mountain and online in jukeboxes the size of large refrigerators.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magneto-optical_drive
Eric Gisin
>
> I think your biggest issue would be:
>
> 1) Finding something to read the hard disk or DVD. In a few decades
> time, I doubt it will be easy to find something to read a SATA disk, in
> much the same way as you would have a very hard time finding a computer
> to read an 8" floppy disk. Same goes for a DVD storage - do you really
You mean you don't have an 8" drive sitting in a box?
> believe in a few decades time anything will read a DVD?
Nonsense. All HD players still do DVD and CD formats.
> The SCSI interface has to date been more stable than any other.
You have adapters from the original SCSI-1 connnectors to SCSI-3?
>
> 2) Decay of electrolytic capacitors is likely to be an isssue.
Hard drives have never used them.
Justin
>
> MOD = Magneto-Optical Disk.
>
> This was the gold standard for archival storage when I worked at
> BigBank, which was up to 1993. We had lots in storage in Iron
> Mountain and online in jukeboxes the size of large refrigerators.
>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magneto-optical_drive
>
What about DVD-RAM?
Rod Speed
> Al Dykes wrote
>> MOD = Magneto-Optical Disk.
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magneto-optical_drive
> What about DVD-RAM?
Much more viable than MOD.
Rod Speed
> Justin wrote:
>
>> What if one took a portable enclosure, stuffed a 200GB drive in
>> there, filled it with his AVCHD footage, stuck it in the factory
>> box, with a few Silica gel packs, maybe wrapped it with one of those
>> lead liners that look like trash bags and stored it (properly
>> labeled of course)? Is that idea stupid?
>> Forget about cost for now.
>
>
> I think your biggest issue would be:
> 1) Finding something to read the hard disk or DVD.
Nope.
> In a few decades time, I doubt it will be easy to find something to read a SATA disk, in much the same way as you
> would have a very hard time finding a computer to read an 8" floppy disk.
Bet it will be trivial to find something to read a USB drive.
> Same goes for a DVD storage - do you really believe in a few decades time anything will read a DVD?
Yep, just like the current drive read CDs just fine.
> The SCSI interface has to date been more stable than any other.
Wrong, USB leaves it for dead.
> 2) Decay of electrolytic capacitors is likely to be an isssue.
Nope. And the DVDs protect you against that small risk.
> 3) I assume the most likely things you would want to keep over decades would be photographs. Experience has shown
> images in stone have lasted thousands of years. Getting the images carved into stone or metal would probably be best.
His are videos, DVDs are a hell of a lot more practical.
> 4) Getting images painted by an artist would be very good and not particularly expensive.
Tad labor intensive with videos.
> We know many paintings have lasted centuries. Not as long as stone/
> metal to date, but more practical and gives better colour information.
But doesnt work for videos.
> 5) Experience has shown many photographs have lasted well when using wet chemistry - silver based photographic medium.
Trouble is that you dont get color that way.
> 5) Nobody really knows how well digital data will store.
We do know that all you really have to do is keep updating the format.
> My suggestions for the best chance would be to
> i) Keep on a few different media - optical, magnetic.
> ii) Transfer it to current technology every 5-10 years. Keep the old media anyway.
> iii) Keep data in different locations.
> iv) I dont think external magnetic fields would be an issue at all,
> but I know mu-metal would be more suitable than lead for that
> purpose. But that really would be the last of your worries.
> v) I used to work developing protection systems for nuclear
> electromagnetic pulse. I am aware the aim would be to explode a bomb that would damage electronics, but not kill
> people. So after an EMP strike, food might not be the issue you suspect.
Nuke attack aint gunna happen.
> On the assumption you want to store photographs,
Dud assumption.
> I suggest
> stone > oil painting > photographs > digital storeage.
And since its video, the only thing thats practical is digital storage.
> In principle, digital storage would not degrade over time, but I think the chances of the images lasting in practice
> is a lot less than with phtographs or oil painting.
Its a tad unlikely that he will be around in millennia to watch the video.
Arno Wagner
> What about DVD-RAM?
It looks good in teory, but in practice less so. I recently
bought a drive and disks. If you are really careful, they
should last 2-3 decades, but the disk do not have cartridges
(at least for the rives you can get) and one bad drop
could possibly be enough.
Unfortunately MOD technology has not been developed further
for some years now, and it looks like it will not be. At
the moment DVD RAM seems to be the best option for small
volume long-term storage. Whether it can perform past the
10 year mark is not really clear to me.
Arno
sam
> Previously Justin <Jus...@nobecauseihatespam.net> wrote:
>> Al Dykes wrote:
>
>>>
>>> MOD = Magneto-Optical Disk.
>>>
>>> This was the gold standard for archival storage when I worked at
>>> BigBank, which was up to 1993. We had lots in storage in Iron
>>> Mountain and online in jukeboxes the size of large refrigerators.
>>>
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magneto-optical_drive
>>>
>
>> What about DVD-RAM?
>
> It looks good in teory, but in practice less so. I recently
> bought a drive and disks. If you are really careful, they
> should last 2-3 decades, but the disk do not have cartridges
> (at least for the rives you can get) and one bad drop
> could possibly be enough.
Trivially avoidable by writing more than one copy.
> Unfortunately MOD technology has not been developed
> further for some years now, and it looks like it will not be.
Corse it wont, its WAY past its useby date.
> At the moment DVD RAM seems to be the best option
> for small volume long-term storage. Whether it can
> perform past the 10 year mark is not really clear to me.
You can protect yourself against that trivially by writing that stuff to a hard drive too.
Justin
OK, since drives capable of DVD-RAMness aren't that expensive off Newegg
I'll buy one of those, a few DVD-RAM discs and save the DV and m2t files
to both.
Good plan?
sam
Yep, way to go IMO.
Justin
>
> Yep, way to go IMO.
>
>
Now why are DVD-RAMS better for the long term?
sam
The writes are checked better when they are written.
They arent necessarily better in the sense of the media chemistry being better in the long term.
Svend Olaf Mikkelsen
<fza...@iinternode.on.net> wrote:
>I recently tried to read an old Quantum 120MB HD that was working fine
>when I put it away in my cupboard many years ago. Now I'm seeing a
>whole bunch of read errors.
Which BIOS or ATA error codes?
--
Svend Olaf
Arno Wagner
> Arno Wagner <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>> Previously Justin <Jus...@nobecauseihatespam.net> wrote:
>>> Al Dykes wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> MOD = Magneto-Optical Disk.
>>>>
>>>> This was the gold standard for archival storage when I worked at
>>>> BigBank, which was up to 1993. We had lots in storage in Iron
>>>> Mountain and online in jukeboxes the size of large refrigerators.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magneto-optical_drive
>>>>
>>
>>> What about DVD-RAM?
>>
>> It looks good in teory, but in practice less so. I recently
>> bought a drive and disks. If you are really careful, they
>> should last 2-3 decades, but the disk do not have cartridges
>> (at least for the rives you can get) and one bad drop
>> could possibly be enough.
> Trivially avoidable by writing more than one copy.
Doubling effort is never trivial.
>> Unfortunately MOD technology has not been developed
>> further for some years now, and it looks like it will not be.
> Corse it wont, its WAY past its useby date.
And once again, you know nothing.
>> At the moment DVD RAM seems to be the best option
>> for small volume long-term storage. Whether it can
>> perform past the 10 year mark is not really clear to me.
> You can protect yourself against that trivially by writing
> that stuff to a hard drive too.
See above.
Arno Wagner
Because they use Phase-Change technology, which is almost as
good as MID technology.
Arno
Eric Gisin
>
> Now why are DVD-RAMS better for the long term?
They read after write to verify, automatically reallocate bad sectors.
Make sure you have two backup sets that you alternate.
sam
> Previously sam <sa...@spam.com> wrote:
>> Arno Wagner <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>> Previously Justin <Jus...@nobecauseihatespam.net> wrote:
>>>> Al Dykes wrote:
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> MOD = Magneto-Optical Disk.
>>>>>
>>>>> This was the gold standard for archival storage when I worked at
>>>>> BigBank, which was up to 1993. We had lots in storage in Iron
>>>>> Mountain and online in jukeboxes the size of large refrigerators.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magneto-optical_drive
>>>>>
>>>
>>>> What about DVD-RAM?
>>>
>>> It looks good in teory, but in practice less so. I recently
>>> bought a drive and disks. If you are really careful, they
>>> should last 2-3 decades, but the disk do not have cartridges
>>> (at least for the rives you can get) and one bad drop
>>> could possibly be enough.
>
>> Trivially avoidable by writing more than one copy.
>
> Doubling effort is never trivial.
Wrong, as always.
>>> Unfortunately MOD technology has not been developed
>>> further for some years now, and it looks like it will not be.
>
>> Corse it wont, its WAY past its useby date.
>
> And once again, you know nothing.
How odd that the entire industry doesnt either.
>>> At the moment DVD RAM seems to be the best option
>>> for small volume long-term storage. Whether it can
>>> perform past the 10 year mark is not really clear to me.
>
>> You can protect yourself against that trivially by writing
>> that stuff to a hard drive too.
> See above.
Completely useless, as always from you.
Franc Zabkar
Olaf Mikkelsen) put finger to keyboard and composed:
I thought it was one of these but I just Scandisked them with a
thorough surface scan and found no errors:
Model ID QUANTUM LPS210A
Parameters 723 cyl, 15 heads, 38 sect/track
LBA Sectors 412109
Buffer 98 KB (Dual Ported, Read Ahead)
Max. PIO Transfer Mode PIO 3
Max. UDMA Transfer Mode Not Supported
Unformatted Capacity 201 MB
Model ID QUANTUM ELS127A
Parameters 919 cyl, 16 heads, 17 sect/track
LBA Sectors 0
Buffer 32 KB (Dual Ported, Read Ahead)
Max. PIO Transfer Mode PIO 2
Max. UDMA Transfer Mode Not Supported
Unformatted Capacity 122 MB
They still have my old DOS 6.22 and Windows 3.1/3.11 stuff on them.
The software was installed in 1995 and 1997, but the HDDs looks like
they may have been manufactured in 1994 and 1992, respectively
(judging by the date codes on the ICs). The 210MB HD has noisy
bearings but the other one still runs quiet.
I suspect I threw the faulty HDD away, so I can't say exactly how I
determined that it had bad sectors. Anyway, I believe it was a Quantum
LP drive of some sort, so it would have predated SMART.
Svend Olaf Mikkelsen
One reason I asked for error codes, is that for some old ATA disks, a
newer BIOS (or operating system or external disk box) is not able to
detect the disk, or does not detect the disk correctly. There are
different variants of this problem.
One example is a "Conner Peripherals 40MB - CP3046" disk. The system
BIOS sees the disk, but reports an error, and does not provide a BIOS
disk number. The disk can be accessed using ATA commands. Using the
Findbad program, I have for the first cylinders:
FindBad, version 1.6. Copyright Svend Olaf Mikkelsen, 2007.
Searches for bad sectors.
OS: DOS 7.10
Disk: PM Cylinders: 65 Heads: 32 Sectors: 40 MB: 41
IDE CHS: 1053/2/40 CTM: 1053/2/40 IDE MB: 41
User sectors: 84240
Start cylinder: 0 End cylinder: 10 First
Only the first bad sector in each cylinder will be shown.
--------- CHS ----- LBA Code
0 0 27 26 10
1 0 27 1306 10
2 0 27 2586 10
3 0 27 3866 10
4 0 27 5146 10
5 0 27 6426 10
6 0 27 7706 10
7 0 27 8986 10
8 0 27 10266 10
9 0 27 11546 10
10 0 27 12826 10
This is ATA error code hexadecimal 10 "ID not found".
The disk however is OK (as new), and the file system can be read
correctly. The disk just needs to be accessed using a 4 heads, 26
sectors translation. The disk probably has a "disk type" number, which
could be entered in a BIOS from that time, or the 4 heads, 26 sectors
geometry could be manually set.
Generally I would say, that if important data are to be read from an
old disk, it should be done using read only methods, and not using an
operating system that will update file access times during read. This
could introduce bad sectors.
For the disk in question, the output from my Identify program is as
follows. The geometry reported cannot be used for accessing the disk.
Identify, version 1.3.
Primary Master
0 0x0A5A General configuration bit significant information
0 Bit 0: Reserved
1 Bit 1: Retired
0 Bit 2: Response incomplete
3 Bit 5-3: Retired
1 Bit 6: 1=not removable controller and/or device
0 Bit 7: 1=removable media device
0A Bit 14-8: Retired
0 Bit 15: 0=ATA device
1 1053 Number of logical cylinder
2 0 Specific configuration
3 2 Number of logical heads
4 25297 Retired
5 617 Retired
6 40 Number of logical sectors per logical block
7 50 Reserved for assignment by the CompactFlash Association
8 12 Reserved for assignment by the CompactFlash Association
9 0 Retired
10 Serial number (20 ASCII characters)
00000000000000000000
20 3 Retired
21 64 Retired
22 4 Obsolete. (Vendor specific bytes at read/write long)
23 T2.28B Firmware revision (8 ASCII characters)
27 Model number (40 ASCII characters)
Conner Peripherals 40MB - CP3046
47 0x0040 Bit 15-8: 0x80 Bit 7-0: Maximum multiple
48 0 Reserved
49 0x0001 Capatibilites
01 Bit 7-0: Retired
0 Bit 8: Must be 0
0 Bit 9: Must be 0
0 Bit 10: IORDY may be disabled
0 Bit 11: IORDY supported, 0: IORDY may be
supported
0 Bit 12: Reserved for Identify Packet Device
0 Bit 13: Standby timer values are supported
0 Bit 15-14: Reserved for Identify Packet Device
50 0x0000 Capabilities
0 Bit 0: 1 for device specific Standby minimum
0000 Bit 13-1: Reserved
0 Bit 14: Shall be set to 1
0 Bit 15: Shall be cleared to 0
51 0x0000 Obsolete. (PIO timing)
52 0x0000 Obsolete. (DMA timing)
53 0x0000 Bit 0: Word 54-58 valid
Bit 1: Word 64-70 valid
Bit 2: Word 88 valid
54 0 Number of current logical cylinders
55 0 Number of current logical heads
56 0 Number of current logical sectors per track
57 0 Current capacity in sectors
59 0x0000 Bit 8: Valid Bit 7-0: Current multiple
60 0 Total number of user addressable sectors (LBA mode
only)
62 0 Obsolete
63 0x0000 Bit 10-0: Multiword DMA
64 0x0000 Bit 7-0: Advanced PIO modes supported
65 0 Minimum Multiword DMA transfer cycle time per word
66 0 Manufacturer's recommended Multiword DMA transfer cycle
time
67 0 Minimum PIO transfer cycle time without flow control
68 0 Minimum PIO transfer cycle time with IORDY flow control
69 0 Reserved (for future command overlap and queuing)
70 0 Reserved (for future command overlap and queuing)
80 0x0000 Major version number
81 0 Minor version number
82 0x0000 Command set supported
83 0x0000 Command sets supported
84 0x0000 Command set/feature supported extension
85 0x0000 Command set/feature enabled
86 0x0000 Command set/feature enabled
87 0x0000 Command set/feature default
88 0x0000 Ultra DMA
89 0x0000 Time required for security erase unit completion
Bit 0-7 * 2: 0
90 0 Time required for Enhanced security erase completion
91 0 Current advanced power management value
92 0x0000 Master Password Revision Code
93 0x0000 Hardware reset result
93 0x0000 Acoustic management
Bit 15-8: Recommended Bit 7-0: Current
127 0x0000 Removeable Media Status Notification feature set
support
128 0x0000 Security status
The above interpretation is mostly based
on ATA/ATAPI-5 documentation.
--
Svend Olaf
Justin
Actually DVD-RAM won't work - not enough space. I'm dealing with 20 gig
DV and m2t files.
sam
Just use 4/8
You dont need to keep writing them, just write the new ones to a pair of DVDs etc.
Franc Zabkar
Olaf Mikkelsen) put finger to keyboard and composed:
>On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 15:06:53 +1000, Franc Zabkar
><fza...@iinternode.on.net> wrote:
>
>>I thought it was one of these but I just Scandisked them with a
>>thorough surface scan and found no errors:
>>
>> Model ID QUANTUM LPS210A
>> Parameters 723 cyl, 15 heads, 38 sect/track
>> Model ID QUANTUM ELS127A
>> Parameters 919 cyl, 16 heads, 17 sect/track
>>- Franc Zabkar
>
>One reason I asked for error codes, is that for some old ATA disks, a
>newer BIOS (or operating system or external disk box) is not able to
>detect the disk, or does not detect the disk correctly. There are
>different variants of this problem.
>
>One example is a "Conner Peripherals 40MB - CP3046" disk. The system
>BIOS sees the disk, but reports an error, and does not provide a BIOS
>disk number. The disk can be accessed using ATA commands. Using the
>Findbad program, I have for the first cylinders:
>
>
>FindBad, version 1.6. Copyright Svend Olaf Mikkelsen, 2007.
>
>Searches for bad sectors.
>
>OS: DOS 7.10
>
>Disk: PM Cylinders: 65 Heads: 32 Sectors: 40 MB: 41
>IDE CHS: 1053/2/40 CTM: 1053/2/40 IDE MB: 41
>User sectors: 84240
>
>Start cylinder: 0 End cylinder: 10 First
>
>Only the first bad sector in each cylinder will be shown.
>
>--------- CHS ----- LBA Code
> 0 0 27 26 10
> 1 0 27 1306 10
...
> 10 0 27 12826 10
>
>
>This is ATA error code hexadecimal 10 "ID not found".
>
>The disk however is OK (as new), and the file system can be read
>correctly. The disk just needs to be accessed using a 4 heads, 26
>sectors translation. The disk probably has a "disk type" number, which
>could be entered in a BIOS from that time, or the 4 heads, 26 sectors
>geometry could be manually set.
So the translation appears to be ...
2 x 40 x 1053 physical = 4 x 26 x 810 logical = 84240 user sectors
If I understand you correctly, the problem is that the Conner drive
reports its physical geometry via the IDE-Identify command but uses
its logical (sector translated) geometry, whereas my Quantum drives
both report and use their logical geometries. As you say, in your case
the BIOS needs to be told what the drive's translated CHS values are.
I have a listing of the drive table in an old Award BIOS. It does not
include the above CHS combination, nor does it have "user defined
drive types". I remember hacking these BIOSes to add such unsupported
drive geometries.
BTW, I tried to locate the CP3046 drive in TheRef, but it isn't
listed:
http://marina.mfarris.com/theref/files/tref45a.zip
>Generally I would say, that if important data are to be read from an
>old disk, it should be done using read only methods, and not using an
>operating system that will update file access times during read. This
>could introduce bad sectors.
Sorry, I don't understand what you are saying here.
>For the disk in question, the output from my Identify program is as
>follows. The geometry reported cannot be used for accessing the disk.
>
>
>Identify, version 1.3.
>
>Primary Master
>
> 1 1053 Number of logical cylinder
> 3 2 Number of logical heads
> 4 25297 Retired
> 5 617 Retired
> 6 40 Number of logical sectors per logical block
> 7 50 Reserved for assignment by the CompactFlash Association
> 8 12 Reserved for assignment by the CompactFlash Association
> 9 0 Retired
> 10 Serial number (20 ASCII characters)
> 00000000000000000000
> 20 3 Retired
> 21 64 Retired
> 22 4 Obsolete. (Vendor specific bytes at read/write long)
> 23 T2.28B Firmware revision (8 ASCII characters)
> 27 Model number (40 ASCII characters)
> Conner Peripherals 40MB - CP3046
> 47 0x0040 Bit 15-8: 0x80 Bit 7-0: Maximum multiple
<snip>
>The above interpretation is mostly based
>on ATA/ATAPI-5 documentation.
It seems to me that Conner Peripherals may not have correctly
implemented the ATA-1 (?) standard. The spec clearly calls for the
drive to report its "default translation mode", not its physical
geometry.
http://www.t13.org/Documents/UploadedDocuments/project/d0791r4c-ATA-1.pdf
===================================================================
9.9.1 Word 1: Number of cylinders
The number of user-addressable cylinders in the default translation
mode.
9.9.2 Word 3: Number of heads
The number of user-addressable heads in the default translation mode.
9.9.3 Word 4: Number of unformatted bytes per track
The number of unformatted bytes per translated track in the default
translation mode.
9.9.4 Word 5: Number of unformatted bytes per sector
The number of unformatted bytes per sector in the default translation
mode.
9.9.5 Word 6: Number of sectors per track
The number of user-addressable sectors per track in the default
translation mode.
===================================================================
Justin
I suppose I could split each file up. Pain in the ass, but it can be done.
they make dual layer DVD-RAMs?
sam
The better software like Roxio EMC splits the files to mulitiple DVDs auto.
> they make dual layer DVD-RAMs?
Nope.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD-RAM
Michael Cecil
wrote:
>I suppose I could split each file up. Pain in the ass, but it can be done.
I'd create Rar files using just the plain storage method and then create
parity files for each group of files you store to each disk. That way if
you do get read errors way down the road, you could use the parity files
to recover the lost files. Of course, that will take up some space too
but that's the cost for certainty.
>they make dual layer DVD-RAMs?
Not sure.
--
Michael Cecil
http://macecil.googlepages.com/index.htm
http://macecil.googlepages.com/safehex.htm
http://macecil.googlepages.com/hackingvista.htm
Arno Wagner
Not possible. Buyt you can get dual-sides ones. They need manual
turning though.
Arno
Folkert Rienstra
news:q5ednY-kTLq0eGXanZ2dnUVZ_tCrnZ2d@uniservecommunications
> news:47f8...@212.67.96.135...
> >
> > I think your biggest issue would be:
> >
> > 1) Finding something to read the hard disk or DVD. In a few decades
> > time, I doubt it will be easy to find something to read a SATA disk, in
> Use a USB-SATA converter.
>
> > much the same way as you would have a very hard time finding a computer
> > to read an 8" floppy disk. Same goes for a DVD storage - do you really
> You mean you don't have an 8" drive sitting in a box?
>
> > believe in a few decades time anything will read a DVD?
> Nonsense. All HD players still do DVD and CD formats.
>
> > The SCSI interface has to date been more stable than any other.
> You have adapters from the original SCSI-1 connnectors to SCSI-3?
> >
> > 2) Decay of electrolytic capacitors is likely to be an isssue.
> Hard drives have never used them.
Nonsense.