How does a drive go bad when not in use?
bxf
(7200 RPM) and capacity.
After I replaced the disk, I put the old one in an external case, tried
it a bit, copied files to and from, etc. and everything was fine. Then
I just left the case (with the disk) lying around.
Because of concerns I have about the replacement disk (it's making some
noises), this past weekend I wanted to check the old disk to ensure all
is ready to switch if necessary. When I tried to format it (either NTFS
or FAT32) I got a message like "cannot format", without any
explanation. I tried to run the disk checking utility (Properties >
Tools > Error Checking - is this CHKDSK?) asking to recover and fix bad
sectors, etc. and it terminates, but I can't recall whether or not it
gave a message. If it did, I know that it said nothing more than
something like "can't complete". I never received anything that
resembles an explanation.
Trying to narrow down the possibilities, I split the disk into four
partitions (roughly 10GB each), and tried to format one partition at a
time. One formatted successfully, but I got stuck on the other three. I
tried writing to two of the bad partitions and I was able to write to
to full capacity, but I was not able to read everything, as it just got
stuck one particular file. Trying to access this file or the next one
reulted in a stuck situation. Also, I received a mesage "path too deep"
at one point when trying to use the disk. Running CHKDSK from Command
Prompt on each partition without any switches gave no errors. Can't
recall what happened when I tried to use the /f switch.
I don't know if the formatting process is identical to the one that
runs when installs Windows, so I put the drive in my laptop and tried
to format as part of Windows install. It got stuck at 8%, with no
messages. This also elimnates the possibility that the problem is
related to the use of an external case via USB.
I get no messages at any time when I just try to use the disk, and
there is nothing in any event log. ALl I hear is some repeated seeking
and clicking noises.
I'm not going to lose sleep over the disk (even though I can't buy
these things at US prices), but I'd like to know how a disk becomes
disfunctional just sitting there in a case without being used or
dropped or banged. Of course, if there is some tool I can use to make
the disk useable again, that would be a bonus.
Any ideas?
---
It's easy to make a decision when there are no options.
Peter
Run full diagnostics of your laptop first. Ideally run continuous tests for
a longer period.
bxf
Peter wrote:
> Run full diagnostics of your laptop first. Ideally run continuous tests for
> a longer period.
With the exception of some worrying noises coming out of my CURRENT
drive (mentioned in another post), there is absolutely no indication of
anything wrong with my laptop. Everything is working "perfectly" fine.
The problems I describe really pertain to my trying to use the OLD disk
in a USB2 enclosure (although, as I mentioned, I did try it in the
laptop itself, just to see what would happen, and it failed there as
well while trying to format).
The failing disk is a Seagate Momentus, and I wonder if there are some
utilities that go beyond CHKDSK.
Peter
I would run laptop diagnostics anyway. Just to have a second proof that
"everything is working perfectly fine".
How is that USB2 enclosure powered?
bxf
Peter wrote:
> I would run laptop diagnostics anyway. Just to have a second proof that
> "everything is working perfectly fine".
OK. Any suggestions as to what tool(s) I should be using?
> How is that USB2 enclosure powered?
Just from the USB port (don't forget, this is a 2.5" drive). The reason
I tried the disk directly in the laptop was to eliminate the USB
interface as a possible cause of any errors. As I mentioned previously,
when I tried to format directly in the laptop, it got stuck at 8%,
with no message or anything, so (external) power is not an issue here.
I can use the disk "normally" without any obvious evidence of problems,
but I assume that is only because I am not hitting the bad spots,
whereas, of course, formatting touches everything. Having said that, I
just realized that it is entirely possible that the disk was f***ed all
along, but I never noticed it because I never formatted it (I never had
a reason). That possibility makes more sense to me than the likelyhood
of the disk suddenly going bonkers while it's not in use.
Peter
> > "everything is working perfectly fine".
>
> OK. Any suggestions as to what tool(s) I should be using?
http://support.packardbell.com/uk/mypc/index.php?PibItemNr=6917050700#show
> > How is that USB2 enclosure powered?
>
> Just from the USB port (don't forget, this is a 2.5" drive). The reason
> I tried the disk directly in the laptop was to eliminate the USB
> interface as a possible cause of any errors. As I mentioned previously,
> when I tried to format directly in the laptop, it got stuck at 8%,
> with no message or anything, so (external) power is not an issue here.
>
> I can use the disk "normally" without any obvious evidence of problems,
> but I assume that is only because I am not hitting the bad spots,
> whereas, of course, formatting touches everything. Having said that, I
> just realized that it is entirely possible that the disk was f***ed all
> along, but I never noticed it because I never formatted it (I never had
> a reason). That possibility makes more sense to me than the likelyhood
> of the disk suddenly going bonkers while it's not in use.
Use PB "Diagnostic tools for RAM and HDD" first to test your HD.
bxf
Peter wrote:
> > > I would run laptop diagnostics anyway. Just to have a second proof that
> > > "everything is working perfectly fine".
> >
> > OK. Any suggestions as to what tool(s) I should be using?
>
> http://support.packardbell.com/uk/mypc/index.php?PibItemNr=6917050700#show
>
Interesting choice, given that my machine is a PB. I probably have
these things sitting around somewhere, since I saved the delivered
system's files before installing my own OS and everything else.
I'll have a go. Thanks.
Rod Speed
> Peter wrote
>> Run full diagnostics of your laptop first. Ideally
>> run continuous tests for a longer period.
> With the exception of some worrying noises coming
> out of my CURRENT drive (mentioned in another post),
That is a real worry if the noise is coming from the drive.
> there is absolutely no indication of anything wrong with my
> laptop. Everything is working "perfectly" fine. The problems
> I describe really pertain to my trying to use the OLD disk in
> a USB2 enclosure (although, as I mentioned, I did try it in
> the laptop itself, just to see what would happen, and it
> failed there as well while trying to format).
It may have failed if you had tried to format it in the laptop too.
> The failing disk is a Seagate Momentus, and I wonder
> if there are some utilities that go beyond CHKDSK.
Yes, Seagate's diagnostic for the drive.
Rod Speed
That indicates that the drive is recalibrating, normally
when it is having problems reading some sectors.
> I'm not going to lose sleep over the disk (even though
> I can't buy these things at US prices), but I'd like to
> know how a disk becomes disfunctional just sitting there
> in a case without being used or dropped or banged.
They can curl up and die when they are replaced,
Some drives can develop bad sectors if they arent
getting enough power, in this case in the external case.
The laptop may be killing drives since the new drive
is also making what appears to be recalibration noises.
> Of course, if there is some tool I can use to make
> the disk useable again, that would be a bonus.
> Any ideas?
See what the Everest says about the SMART data and
run the hard drive manufacturer's diagnostics on the drive.
If its a Toshiba, use Hitachi's DFT.
bxf
Rod Speed wrote:
> bxf <bi...@topman.net> wrote
> > Peter wrote
>
> >> Run full diagnostics of your laptop first. Ideally
> >> run continuous tests for a longer period.
>
> > With the exception of some worrying noises coming
> > out of my CURRENT drive (mentioned in another post),
>
> That is a real worry if the noise is coming from the drive.
Yes, that's why we have another post on the subject.
> > there is absolutely no indication of anything wrong with my
> > laptop. Everything is working "perfectly" fine. The problems
> > I describe really pertain to my trying to use the OLD disk in
> > a USB2 enclosure (although, as I mentioned, I did try it in
> > the laptop itself, just to see what would happen, and it
> > failed there as well while trying to format).
>
> It may have failed if you had tried to format it in the laptop too.
>
> > The failing disk is a Seagate Momentus, and I wonder
> > if there are some utilities that go beyond CHKDSK.
>
> Yes, Seagate's diagnostic for the drive.
Gotta get my hands on this one somehow, I suppose.
bxf
Yes, and it certainly has problems because it goes on "forever". It is
even a bit difficult to cancel the FORMAT, which I must do eventually.
Most of the time I'm forced to pull out the USB cable.
> > I'm not going to lose sleep over the disk (even though
> > I can't buy these things at US prices), but I'd like to
> > know how a disk becomes disfunctional just sitting there
> > in a case without being used or dropped or banged.
>
> They can curl up and die when they are replaced,
Poor baby. If only I knew!
> Some drives can develop bad sectors if they arent
> getting enough power, in this case in the external case.
Well, I actually manage to run without any problems a capture device
that takes much more than the 500ma that a USB port is supposed to
deliver, so I can tell you that this laptop's USB ports have plenty of
juice. More to the point perhaps is the fact that I haven't really used
the drive in the case beyond some quick tests at the time I replaced
the the drive in the laptop. That's it. Of course, this doesn't
disprove your comment.
> The laptop may be killing drives since the new drive
> is also making what appears to be recalibration noises.
That's all I need!
> > Of course, if there is some tool I can use to make
> > the disk useable again, that would be a bonus.
>
> > Any ideas?
>
> See what the Everest says about the SMART data and
> run the hard drive manufacturer's diagnostics on the drive.
> If its a Toshiba, use Hitachi's DFT.
I think I looked, but I didn't see Everest SMART data for a USB device.
I'll have another look.
Going home now. A demain.
Rod Speed
Yeah, best to put a bullet in it and put it out of its misery.
>> Some drives can develop bad sectors if they arent
>> getting enough power, in this case in the external case.
> Well, I actually manage to run without any problems a capture device
> that takes much more than the 500ma that a USB port is supposed to
> deliver, so I can tell you that this laptop's USB ports have plenty of
> juice. More to the point perhaps is the fact that I haven't really
> used the drive in the case beyond some quick tests at the time I
> replaced the the drive in the laptop. That's it. Of course, this
> doesn't disprove your comment.
>> The laptop may be killing drives since the new drive
>> is also making what appears to be recalibration noises.
> That's all I need!
Always been one for glad tidings.
>>> Of course, if there is some tool I can use to make
>>> the disk useable again, that would be a bonus.
>>> Any ideas?
>> See what the Everest says about the SMART data and
>> run the hard drive manufacturer's diagnostics on the drive.
>> If its a Toshiba, use Hitachi's DFT.
> I think I looked, but I didn't see Everest SMART data for a USB device.
I didnt mean that, I meant for the drives used internally in the laptop.
> ll have another look.
> Going home now. A demain.
You one of those frogs ?
bxf
Rod Speed wrote:
> bxf <bi...@topman.net> wrote:
> > Rod Speed wrote:
> >> bxf <bi...@topman.net> wrote
> >>> I'm not going to lose sleep over the disk (even though
> >>> I can't buy these things at US prices), but I'd like to
> >>> know how a disk becomes disfunctional just sitting there
> >>> in a case without being used or dropped or banged.
> >>
> >> They can curl up and die when they are replaced,
>
> > Poor baby. If only I knew!
>
> Yeah, best to put a bullet in it and put it out of its misery.
>
> >> Some drives can develop bad sectors if they arent
> >> getting enough power, in this case in the external case.
>
> > Well, I actually manage to run without any problems a capture device
> > that takes much more than the 500ma that a USB port is supposed to
> > deliver, so I can tell you that this laptop's USB ports have plenty of
> > juice. More to the point perhaps is the fact that I haven't really
> > used the drive in the case beyond some quick tests at the time I
> > replaced the the drive in the laptop. That's it. Of course, this
> > doesn't disprove your comment.
>
> >> The laptop may be killing drives since the new drive
> >> is also making what appears to be recalibration noises.
>
> > That's all I need!
>
> Always been one for glad tidings.
Yes, we've all noticed. I can hardly wait for Christmas.
> >>> Of course, if there is some tool I can use to make
> >>> the disk useable again, that would be a bonus.
>
> >>> Any ideas?
>
> >> See what the Everest says about the SMART data and
> >> run the hard drive manufacturer's diagnostics on the drive.
> >> If its a Toshiba, use Hitachi's DFT.
>
> > I think I looked, but I didn't see Everest SMART data for a USB device.
>
> I didnt mean that, I meant for the drives used internally in the laptop.
Well, since I wasn't able to format the drive, I have no OS on it, and
there is no other way for me to use a drive. However, I am able to do a
quick format, so in fact it may be possible for me to install Windows
on it then view the SMART data. Another one for the weekend.
FWIW, I tried again the Error Checking process that one invokes through
Properties > Tools... which I assume is the equivalent of CHKDSK /f.
The thing made the HDD (connected via USB) very hot for the first half
hour or so but kept on going. After awhile it ran cooler but seemed to
be making no progress, even though the drive's red and green lights
were coming on for some time. After a couple of hours it finally
stopped with the message (are you ready for this?) "Windows was unable
to complete the disk check". I love these informative diagnostic
messages!
> > Going home now. A demain.
>
> You one of those frogs ?
Naw, it just came out, don't ask me why, though I do speak the language
some. "Ciao" would have been more appropriate, given my present
location.
mike
When two very smooth surfaces come in contact, they stick together.
In the disk world, it's called sticktion.
In the early days, this was a BIG problem. I've seen heads ripped right
out of the mount. Other times a piece of the surface stays stuck to the
head. It doesn't take much...
Two decades later, this problem is supposed to have been solved. Maybe
you got lucky and the builder forgot to put the K-Y on the surface.
mike
--
Wanted, Serial cable for Dell Axim X5 PDA.
Return address is VALID but some sites block emails
with links. Delete this sig when replying.
FS 500MHz Tek DSOscilloscope TDS540 Make Offer
Bunch of stuff For Sale and Wanted at the link below.
MAKE THE OBVIOUS CHANGES TO THE LINK
ht<removethis>tp://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Monitor/4710/
bxf
mike wrote:
> When two very smooth surfaces come in contact, they stick together.
> In the disk world, it's called sticktion.
I thought you were pulling my leg with this high tech term "sticktion".
In my attempt to formulate a witty reply, I did a search and was
surprised that this term is totally real. Actually, I have some
awareness of this phenomenon but never thought that it had a name. Oh,
I feel so enlightened!
> In the early days, this was a BIG problem. I've seen heads ripped right
> out of the mount. Other times a piece of the surface stays stuck to the
> head. It doesn't take much...
> Two decades later, this problem is supposed to have been solved. Maybe
> you got lucky and the builder forgot to put the K-Y on the surface.
I'll see if I can open up the drive's case just enough to squeeze some
in.
Rod Speed
You dont qualify for Xmas, you've likely killed two drives.
Reprehensible behaviour.
>>>>> Of course, if there is some tool I can use to make
>>>>> the disk useable again, that would be a bonus.
>>>>> Any ideas?
>>>> See what the Everest says about the SMART data and
>>>> run the hard drive manufacturer's diagnostics on the drive.
>>>> If its a Toshiba, use Hitachi's DFT.
>>> I think I looked, but I didn't see Everest SMART data for a USB
>>> device.
>> I didnt mean that, I meant for the drives used internally in the laptop.
> Well, since I wasn't able to format the drive, I have no
> OS on it, and there is no other way for me to use a drive.
You can run Everest on the new drive, and see if the
cyclic noise is due to recalibrating. Unlikely, but worth
confirming since its so easy to run Everest on it.
That would confirm whether the laptop is killing drives.
> However, I am able to do a quick format, so in fact it
> may be possible for me to install Windows on it then
> view the SMART data. Another one for the weekend.
> FWIW, I tried again the Error Checking process that one invokes
> through Properties > Tools... which I assume is the equivalent of
> CHKDSK /f. The thing made the HDD (connected via USB) very
> hot for the first half hour or so but kept on going. After awhile it ran
> cooler but seemed to be making no progress, even though the drive's
> red and green lights were coming on for some time. After a couple of
> hours it finally stopped with the message (are you ready for this?)
> "Windows was unable to complete the disk check". I love these
> informative diagnostic messages!
Yeah, the hard drive manufacturer's diagnostic
is generally better in that situation, tho again,
its generally better with the drive in the laptop.
Rod Speed
>> Any ideas?
> When two very smooth surfaces come in contact, they stick together. In the
> disk world, it's called sticktion. In the early days, this was a BIG problem.
But it doesnt produce the symptoms he is seeing.
> I've seen heads ripped right out of the mount. Other times a piece of the
> surface stays stuck to the head. It doesn't take much...
> Two decades later, this problem is supposed to have been solved.
It has.
> Maybe you got lucky and the builder forgot to put the K-Y on the surface.
It wasnt fixed by surface lubrication, it was fixed by not having
the heads land on the surface when the drive stops rotating.
The heads should never touch the surface with modern drives.
bxf
Rod Speed wrote:
> bxf <bi...@topman.net> wrote:
> > Rod Speed wrote:
> >> bxf <bi...@topman.net> wrote:
> >>> Rod Speed wrote:
> >>>> bxf <bi...@topman.net> wrote
> >>>> is also making what appears to be recalibration noises.
>
> >>> That's all I need!
>
> >> Always been one for glad tidings.
>
> > Yes, we've all noticed. I can hardly wait for Christmas.
>
> You dont qualify for Xmas, you've likely killed two drives.
>
> Reprehensible behaviour.
Well, now that the other drive's problem seem to be a fan problem, do I
get a reprieve?
> >>>>> Of course, if there is some tool I can use to make
> >>>>> the disk useable again, that would be a bonus.
>
> >>>>> Any ideas?
>
> >>>> See what the Everest says about the SMART data and
> >>>> run the hard drive manufacturer's diagnostics on the drive.
> >>>> If its a Toshiba, use Hitachi's DFT.
>
> >>> I think I looked, but I didn't see Everest SMART data for a USB
> >>> device.
>
> >> I didnt mean that, I meant for the drives used internally in the laptop.
>
> > Well, since I wasn't able to format the drive, I have no
> > OS on it, and there is no other way for me to use a drive.
>
> You can run Everest on the new drive, and see if the
> cyclic noise is due to recalibrating. Unlikely, but worth
> confirming since its so easy to run Everest on it.
Moot point now that we've established (other post) that the new dive is
not at fault.
> That would confirm whether the laptop is killing drives.
Ditto.
> > However, I am able to do a quick format, so in fact it
> > may be possible for me to install Windows on it then
> > view the SMART data. Another one for the weekend.
>
> > FWIW, I tried again the Error Checking process that one invokes
> > through Properties > Tools... which I assume is the equivalent of
> > CHKDSK /f. The thing made the HDD (connected via USB) very
> > hot for the first half hour or so but kept on going. After awhile it ran
> > cooler but seemed to be making no progress, even though the drive's
> > red and green lights were coming on for some time. After a couple of
> > hours it finally stopped with the message (are you ready for this?)
> > "Windows was unable to complete the disk check". I love these
> > informative diagnostic messages!
>
> Yeah, the hard drive manufacturer's diagnostic
> is generally better in that situation, tho again,
> its generally better with the drive in the laptop.
I'm gonna try to come up with something.
Going home now.
Y'all take care.
Folkert Rienstra
Nope.
That's actually one application where stiction may still occur when the
heads fail to be parked on the ramp.
> The heads should never touch the surface with modern drives.
Nonsense. Plenty of drives still have no ramps.
Rod Speed
> Rod Speed wrote
>> bxf <bi...@topman.net> wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>> bxf <bi...@topman.net> wrote
>>>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>>>> bxf <bi...@topman.net> wrote
>>>>>> The laptop may be killing drives since the new drive
>>>>>> is also making what appears to be recalibration noises.
>>>>> That's all I need!
>>>> Always been one for glad tidings.
>>> Yes, we've all noticed. I can hardly wait for Christmas.
>> You dont qualify for Xmas, you've likely killed two drives.
>> Reprehensible behaviour.
> Well, now that the other drive's problem seem
> to be a fan problem, do I get a reprieve?
Never been into reprieves, thats why I favor the death penalty.
That ensure they cant do another crime too.
>>>>>>> Of course, if there is some tool I can use to make
>>>>>>> the disk useable again, that would be a bonus.
>>>>>>> Any ideas?
>>>>>> See what the Everest says about the SMART data and
>>>>>> run the hard drive manufacturer's diagnostics on the drive.
>>>>>> If its a Toshiba, use Hitachi's DFT.
>>>>> I think I looked, but I didn't see Everest
>>>>> SMART data for a USB device.
>>>> I didnt mean that, I meant for the drives used internally in the
>>>> laptop.
>>> Well, since I wasn't able to format the drive, I have no
>>> OS on it, and there is no other way for me to use a drive.
>> You can run Everest on the new drive, and see if the
>> cyclic noise is due to recalibrating. Unlikely, but worth
>> confirming since its so easy to run Everest on it.
> Moot point now that we've established
> (other post) that the new dive is not at fault.
Yep.
>> That would confirm whether the laptop is killing drives.
> Ditto.
Yep.
>>> However, I am able to do a quick format, so in fact it
>>> may be possible for me to install Windows on it then
>>> view the SMART data. Another one for the weekend.
>>> FWIW, I tried again the Error Checking process that one invokes
>>> through Properties > Tools... which I assume is the equivalent of
>>> CHKDSK /f. The thing made the HDD (connected via USB) very
>>> hot for the first half hour or so but kept on going. After awhile
>>> it ran cooler but seemed to be making no progress, even though the
>>> drive's
>>> red and green lights were coming on for some time. After a couple of
>>> hours it finally stopped with the message (are you ready for this?)
>>> "Windows was unable to complete the disk check". I love these
>>> informative diagnostic messages!
>> Yeah, the hard drive manufacturer's diagnostic
>> is generally better in that situation, tho again,
>> its generally better with the drive in the laptop.
> I'm gonna try to come up with something.
> Going home now.
> Y'all take care.
OK.
Rod Speed
> Nope.
Yep.
> That's actually one application where stiction may still
> occur when the heads fail to be parked on the ramp.
Pathetic, really.
>> The heads should never touch the surface with modern drives.
> Nonsense. Plenty of drives still have no ramps.
Wrong, as always.
helpdisc
toshiba?
and the previus was ibm or Hitachi?
Or?
bxf
The old one (i.e. the original one in the laptop, the one being
discussed in this post) is a Seagate Momentus (4200RPM). The new one is
the 7200 RPM 7K60 from Hitachi/IBM.
Folkert Rienstra
Oh please, stop that. Don't encourage that idiot.
bxf
Hmmm, I must infer from your comment that I haven't been hanging around
here often enough to know who is who and what is what. I DID wonder
about the possible usefulness of the question/answer.
Folkert Rienstra
You don't need to. He came in here about the same time you did.
(And oh, nothing implied with that of course ;-))
bxf
for the fact that I don't understand how it breaks while not in use.
I divided it (40BG) into 4 partitions and installed Windows, just so
that I can put the drive directly into the laptop, rather than using it
via USB. Two of the partitions are OK, and the other two won't let me
format or do error checking with recovery of bad sectors.
For what it's worth, here is some SMART data:
Threshold Value Worst Data
--------- ----- ----- -----
Raw READ error rate 34 54 54 47863983
Spin up time 0 99 98 0
Start/stop count 20 98 98 2794
Reallocated sector count 36 100 100 1
Seek error rate 30 74 60 28704318
Power on time count 0 98 98 1994
Spin retry count 34 100 100 0
Power cycle count 20 100 100 719
Power-off retract count 0 100 100 145
Load/unload cycle count 0 78 78 45140
Temperature 0 46 57 46
Hardware ECC recovered 0 54 53 47863983
Current pending sector count 0 100 100 71
Off-line uncorectable sector count 0 100 100 71
Ultra ATA CRC error rate 0 200 195 12
Write error rate 0 100 253 0
<Vendor specific> 0 100 253 0
After a bit of use, the 47863983 figures went up to over 53 million (in
both places), and the "Seek error rate" went up to 28742257.
Rod Speed
> Well, this drive is obviously fucked. No big deal, I suppose, except
> for the fact that I don't understand how it breaks while not in use.
Some faults are use dependant, some arent. Dry
joints and cracked traces etc arent use dependant.
> I divided it (40BG) into 4 partitions and installed Windows, just
> so that I can put the drive directly into the laptop, rather than using
> it via USB. Two of the partitions are OK, and the other two won't
> let me format or do error checking with recovery of bad sectors.
> For what it's worth, here is some SMART data:
> Threshold Value Worst Data
> --------- ----- ----- -----
> Raw READ error rate 34 54 54 47863983
> Spin up time 0 99 98 0
> Start/stop count 20 98 98 2794
> Reallocated sector count 36 100 100 1
> Seek error rate 30 74 60 28704318
That may or may not indicate a dying drive, depending on the drive.
> Power on time count 0 98 98 1994
> Spin retry count 34 100 100 0
> Power cycle count 20 100 100 719
> Power-off retract count 0 100 100 145
> Load/unload cycle count 0 78 78 45140
> Temperature 0 46 57 46
> Hardware ECC recovered 0 54 53 47863983
> Current pending sector count 0 100 100 71
> Off-line uncorectable sector count 0 100 100 71
Those two certainly indicated a dying drive.
> Ultra ATA CRC error rate 0 200 195 12
> Write error rate 0 100 253 0
> <Vendor specific> 0 100 253 0
> After a bit of use, the 47863983 figures went up to over 53 million
> (in both places), and the "Seek error rate" went up to 28742257.
She's dead Jim, you into necrophilia ?
bxf
Never tried it.
Actually, I've got two partitions of about 10GB each that appear to be
useable without problems (for now). And, if I was really determined on
this matter (I'm not), I could expand the good partitions until I hit a
bad area, thus maximizing useable space.
I do have more interesting things to do, though.
Folkert Rienstra
That's assuming the drive doesn't have more structural problems ...
> this matter (I'm not), I could expand the good partitions until I hit a
> bad area, thus maximizing useable space.
.... so then why not let the drive itself take care of the bad areas.
Rod Speed
> Never tried it.
A likely story.
> Actually, I've got two partitions of about 10GB each that appear
> to be useable without problems (for now). And, if I was really
> determined on this matter (I'm not), I could expand the good
> partitions until I hit a bad area, thus maximizing useable space.
That assumes that the bad bits have a fixed location
on the platter. Thats unlikely with most faults, particularly
with faults that develop with the drive not being used.
> I do have more interesting things to do, though.
Yeah, very unlikely to be a useful use of your
time given how cheap hard drives are now.
bxf
>
> >> She's dead Jim, you into necrophilia ?
>
> > Never tried it.
>
> A likely story.
I swear it's true. However, I can attest to the existence of some women
who needed close examination to ascertain the fact that they were not
in fact dead.
> > Actually, I've got two partitions of about 10GB each that appear
> > to be useable without problems (for now). And, if I was really
> > determined on this matter (I'm not), I could expand the good
> > partitions until I hit a bad area, thus maximizing useable space.
>
> That assumes that the bad bits have a fixed location
> on the platter. Thats unlikely with most faults, particularly
> with faults that develop with the drive not being used.
Just out of interest, can you explain this one? I have difficulty
visualizing a bad disk with a "floating" bad area (assuming the problem
is not with the heads).
Rod Speed
>>>> She's dead Jim, you into necrophilia ?
>>> Never tried it.
>> A likely story.
> I swear it's true.
Corse you would say that.
> However, I can attest to the existence of some women who needed
> close examination to ascertain the fact that they were not in fact dead.
Yeah, can be a problem.
>>> Actually, I've got two partitions of about 10GB each that appear
>>> to be useable without problems (for now). And, if I was really
>>> determined on this matter (I'm not), I could expand the good
>>> partitions until I hit a bad area, thus maximizing useable space.
>> That assumes that the bad bits have a fixed location
>> on the platter. Thats unlikely with most faults, particularly
>> with faults that develop with the drive not being used.
> Just out of interest, can you explain this one? I have
> difficulty visualizing a bad disk with a "floating" bad
> area (assuming the problem is not with the heads).
Clearly any fault that isnt due to specific bits of the
platter going bad will see the bad sector reported
essentially randomly placed on the platters and the
report on which sectors are bad varying randomly over time.
Even with the heads, there is no reason why
most faults should result in the same sectors
being reported as bad over time.
bxf
Rod Speed wrote:
> bxf <bi...@topman.net> wrote
> > Rod Speed wrote
> >> bxf <bi...@topman.net> wrote
> >>> Rod Speed wrote
>
> >>> to be useable without problems (for now). And, if I was really
> >>> determined on this matter (I'm not), I could expand the good
> >>> partitions until I hit a bad area, thus maximizing useable space.
>
> >> That assumes that the bad bits have a fixed location
> >> on the platter. Thats unlikely with most faults, particularly
> >> with faults that develop with the drive not being used.
>
> > Just out of interest, can you explain this one? I have
> > difficulty visualizing a bad disk with a "floating" bad
> > area (assuming the problem is not with the heads).
>
> Clearly any fault that isnt due to specific bits of the
> platter going bad will see the bad sector reported
> essentially randomly placed on the platters and the
> report on which sectors are bad varying randomly over time.
OK, I just viewed a bad drive as either a platter problem or a head
problem, or both. So of course, a platter problem is in a fixed
location (unless the heads are rubbing against the platter and
propagating the problem, but that's another story).
> Even with the heads, there is no reason why
> most faults should result in the same sectors
> being reported as bad over time.
This one is pretty obvious, I'd think. If the heads are bad then the
errors are likely to occur at no specific place.
Rod Speed
> Rod Speed wrote
>> bxf <bi...@topman.net> wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>> bxf <bi...@topman.net> wrote
>>>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>>> Actually, I've got two partitions of about 10GB each that appear
>>>>> to be useable without problems (for now). And, if I was really
>>>>> determined on this matter (I'm not), I could expand the good
>>>>> partitions until I hit a bad area, thus maximizing useable space.
>>>> That assumes that the bad bits have a fixed location
>>>> on the platter. Thats unlikely with most faults, particularly
>>>> with faults that develop with the drive not being used.
>>> Just out of interest, can you explain this one? I have
>>> difficulty visualizing a bad disk with a "floating" bad
>>> area (assuming the problem is not with the heads).
>> Clearly any fault that isnt due to specific bits of the
>> platter going bad will see the bad sector reported
>> essentially randomly placed on the platters and the
>> report on which sectors are bad varying randomly over time.
> OK, I just viewed a bad drive as either a
> platter problem or a head problem, or both.
That is just plain wrong, most obviously with logic card faults.
> So of course, a platter problem is in a fixed location
> (unless the heads are rubbing against the platter and
> propagating the problem, but that's another story).
It isnt really, because about the only way a platter
can go bad in a particular area of the platter is if
you get a head crash at that spot, or the platter
starts shedding the magnetic surface. Both of those
failures will normally produce effects outside the
area that was initially the problem, with loose
material floating around inside the sealed
enclosure, or getting stuck on the heads etc.
>> Even with the heads, there is no reason why
>> most faults should result in the same sectors
>> being reported as bad over time.
> This one is pretty obvious, I'd think. If the heads are bad
> then the errors are likely to occur at no specific place.
That isnt always true. If the gain starts to deteriorate,
the poorest performing areas of the platter magnetically
would normally show up as bads first. You can get the
same effect if its stops flying properly too so it no
longer flys as close to the surface reliably.
And a fault in the flexible connection to the heads can see the
fault more of a problem in some head positions than others too.
The short story is that you dont normally see particular parts
of the platter just go bad and you can just spare those sectors
and carry on regardless with no risk of more bads showing up.
The basic physics means that that just doesnt happen.
The automatic sparing mechanism that modern drives have is
there for a different reason, marginal areas of the platters that
look usable in the manufacturing test turning out to be not really
reliably usable, so they just get marked bad in the field when
ideally they should have been marked bad in the factory initially.