"professional courtesy"? Never existed. This type of name calling went on
back in the early 80's. Naming the evil villan the slightly altered name of
your compentors was quite common. I wish I could remember some examples.
I'll have to dig through my Atari 800 stuff.
Robert Merritt
-* Disclaimer: Opinions posted here are mine and not of my employer
-*"There is always death and taxes. However death doesn't get worse every year"
Another example of Apogee's "We never do anything wrong" attitude.
> Tim, you can't deny that this whole code thing has made Apogee look bad
> while Epic looks good. We can't win either way. If we say anything
> about it people say "Quit picking on poor little Epic" and if we do
> nothing then everyone has a good laugh at our expense. Our only option
> is to be quite and get slammed over and over, retaliate (we won't) or
> mention it to Epic which we did. We thought things were settled in a
> grown up mature way and the matter was dropped. Guess not, yet again.
Apogee makes Apogee look bad. Actually Joe Seigler makes you look REAL
BAD. You wouldn't be so angry if the 'joke' of Apology mode wasn't mostly
true!
Let your software speak for itself. If you get poked fun at for making a
million and one clones of a platform game using a similar engine, SO
WHAT!? It's the truth that you guys milked everything you could out of
the 'keen' engine. When Harry was released your press release said
something about it being (paraphrased} "ground-breaking technology
featuring 256c VGA and Digital soundtrack". Puhleeze!
I think you treat the public as children. You don't realize that even
before COSMO, the public was saying when will Apogee do something in VGA
and digital sound? Then when you finally do realease something like that
you tout it as 'groundbreaking' making it seem to the less informed that
you created 256c VGA/Digital games! (Yes, I know you didnt outright say
this)
Why not let you new software validate your status as a great company?
> Tim, should I post the many rude and flaming tpye messages posted by
> Mark Rein (Epic's VP) in an Apogee Intelec conference? There's lots of
> ammo where he says stuff like "Epic's gonna kick Apogee's big fat
> complacent butt's". Could mention that stuff but why bother :)
Well, I for one remember Joe also poking jibes at Epic. And it seemed to
be in the spirit of friendly rivalry than mean-spirited attacks.
Also I mustt include that I have personally been *banned* from all
Intelec conferences after a disagreement with Joe Siegler on a number of
your policies (on which you have since changed). It seems that Intelec is
another 'net' that like to control opinions so you and swcbbs should feel
at home with it.
> Fact is we've never done anything to Epic and in fact Scott Miller,
> Apogee's president, helped Tim countless times with advice how to start
> in shareware and how to market things when Tim was doing ZZT. Guess
> those days are long gone and forgotten. Epic has done very well and
> should be proud of themselves.
And Apogee has done well also, and should not let a little jibe make you
feel so picked on. Face it, you (Apogee) are among the big boys on the
block and it makes you look bad to cry foul over such a small issue.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nelson Fernandez nel...@netcom.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
YEA, and JUST WAIT till ya see what happens when you play One Must Fall 2097
BACKWARDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<G>
hee hee shux let em fight it out :):) it's something to talk about while
we wait for more good games to come out right????
Don't y'all think that Apogee should get the award for sense of humor of
the year??????
How bout a vote on who is the best shareware game company of the year to
date??? Doom is #1 but then again that's all they have to date (well
there is wolf but that's old news...
Apogee has put out the most games, but it isn't always easy to
distunguish them from one another, (but they do a hell of a job on those
previews don't they????)
Epic well naaaa I can't say it <G>Josh would yell at me :):):) I'm a
bit bias toward Epic so My vote wouldn't count really :):)
Well enough rambeling......CYA.............Dave
--
Gam...@aol.com
Daa...@eskimo.com JAZZ JACKRABBIT
cis address on request SONIC WITH AN ATTITUDE!!!!!!
cerebrial rectumitus sufferer
This is the way Apogee should be (see above), many people view Apogee as a
lame shareware company that makes platform games only and makes EGA 16 color
games for 1994 with no playablility or value and it makes Apogee look like
their programmers are 12 year olds that dont know how to program anything but
EGA 16 color mode. Apogee MUST change to be competitive and the above is the
way to do that. The Above makes Apogee look like a PROFESSIONAL SOFTWARE HOUSE
and like they are so professional that they are the true leaders of shareware,
even better than Commercial companies! Their games would be better than the
ones you normally buy at the store. Quality guy, quality!
The fact is, Tim Sweeney of Epic said that he didn't mean to have the
Apology mode in Jazz. It was only there for the amusement of the beta
testers. He said when he found that it was in the released version he
requested it removed.
Apogee did not cry foul! Frankly, I couldn't care if he left the mode
in there!
Maybe on our next game, we'll include a joke about Epic, then take it
out in version 1.1. That way everyone like you will think Epic is a
cry baby.
Crazy logic, huh? Sad but true, though!
Scott
Understand that Apogee does not ban ANYONE from anywhere. While I
don't remember the circumstances of what you speak, it would be the
BBS Network doing this, not Apogee Software, nor myself or anyone
here.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Joe Siegler - Apogee Software | _|\_ |
| Online Support Manager | \ / \ Pisces Swimeatus |
| | |>< |> OO The Dopefish |
| joe.s...@swcbbs.com | / \___/UU |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
anon Apogee ftp site at ftp.uml.edu in msdos/Games/Apogee
Send me E-Mail and ask about the Apogee Mailing List!
Next Game Due Out --> Wacky Wheels (Sept 1994)
---
* 1st v2.0b/TLX v4 * IncludeDopeFish = TRUE ;reserved variable for J. Siegler
Id, obviously, does NOT suck! I did that (fairly lame) game Dare a while
back, and it was just stupid at the time.
The Jazz codes are a bit more creative; Arjan knows what he's doing!
Cliff - Designer of Jazz Jackrabbit
---
* SLMR 2.1a *
this is NOT about Apogee's reaction, but just about some things you stated.
You should remember that Shareware has some great limitations in file size.
When you're going to do a game in Hi-res, with big animations etcetera you
will make the game so big that no-one can ever download it. Then, you must
make your game so that you give a reasonable part away, which also limits
the styles of the games. Sure, everyone wants to make these so-called Hi-
Quality superVGA games, but sometimes there's just no way.
It would be interesting to see how Shareware develops with the rest of the
gaming market going to CD-ROM faaast.
arjan brussee - programmer of JJ
Hmmm..only was able to delete a couple lines...might as well have left 'em
in. In defense of Apogee, I would like to address a couple of your points.
16 bit sound support/samples/stereo music/qsound is COSTLY, in both time and
disk space. Sierra got the "include it all" bug, and now can only ship
games on CDROM. Jazz supports the 16 bit Soundblaster, so other games
could, but that would take time. Time well spent, yes, but still time.
The best (only) way to handle this would be "sound modules", the game
could be played without them...but if you DO have a SB16ASP and free disk
space, the game could use them. As far as 3D...they are working on that. I
think it will be slightly better 3D than Blake Stone/Wolf. (BTW...Since
when did "first person" equal "3d").
As far as delivering on time...no. Will never happen. Even "the big
boys" have delays in shipping. A smaller shareware outfit will have even
worse delays. Just get used to them.
Howard
--
st...@okcforum.osrhe.edu | "Remember, the truth that once was spoken:
I speak for no one but myself, | to love another person is to see the face
and no one else speaks for me. | of God." - Les Miserables fnord
Commence strategic maneuvers at audio command signal. 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, begin.
ARE YOU LISTENING, EPIC?
--
"Hi cutie, yeef." -- clc to jlw3 =====================================
================================== From the Terminal of the Rink =
= There is a growing trend = s...@kepler.unh.edu ri...@unh.edu =
= in America to consume foods =====================================
= that are less that are less ===== No Jesus, No Peace; =
= likely to kill you. I think ===== Know Jesus, Know Peace. =
= this is counterproductive. clc ===================================
==================================== Paul Sand coolly...oh never mind.
or translated for those with lesser experience with Scott:
"Nah, Nah! We can be that way too. And we're better then you are,
and we're not complaining, even though it was wrong for you to do,
and besides which, we can do it too, see if we don't. We'll teach you
to make fun of US!"
>
>Crazy logic, huh? Sad but true, though!
Indeed, Sad but True. Man makes MILLIONS on shareware, and he still
comes across like this. Worse yet, he hires Joe S. to do it for him.
Seth
[Don't bother flaming me, Apogee... I long lost respect for you folks
and your warped opinions.]
Yep... Epic is listening.
How do you figure that Epic is continuing bashing? "XUSDI" was described by
Cliff Bleszinski in another message. Look for it. Flame letters? Where? The
only thing that could be traced back to Epic that has been posted on here was
posted by me... and it wasn't even anything I said. Quote me a message that
you find offensive that Epic themselves stated, and I'll know what you are
talking about.
Joshua Jensen
How can both Apogee and Epic be _so_ childish?
Who cares if they have references to each other
in their games? Does it change the gameplay? NO
Does it reduce the value of the game? NO
Does it harm the other company's sales? NO
Does it give people a harmless chuckle? YES
Are harmless chuckles killing off software
companies? NO
So, what's the problem?
You didn't see everyone get all het up about the
SPISPOPD code in Doom....
Anyway, to be mentioned in a rival companies
product is an honour, it shows they regard you as
true competition...
William
----------------------------------------------------------------
|\ _,,,---,,_ Software Engineer,
ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ Acorn Computers Ltd,
|,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Cambridge, England.
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Email: wtu...@acorn.co.uk
: You should remember that Shareware has some great limitations in file size.
: When you're going to do a game in Hi-res, with big animations etcetera you
: will make the game so big that no-one can ever download it. Then, you must
: make your game so that you give a reasonable part away, which also limits
: the styles of the games. Sure, everyone wants to make these so-called Hi-
: Quality superVGA games, but sometimes there's just no way.
: It would be interesting to see how Shareware develops with the rest of the
: gaming market going to CD-ROM faaast.
: arjan brussee - programmer of JJ
Like I said, I dont mind having a shareware game of 8 disks and 15 disks for
the registered or CD-ROM. I forgot to put CD-ROM in my last message.
: You should remember that Shareware has some great limitations in file size.
: When you're going to do a game in Hi-res, with big animations etcetera you
: will make the game so big that no-one can ever download it. Then, you must
: make your game so that you give a reasonable part away, which also limits
: the styles of the games. Sure, everyone wants to make these so-called Hi-
: Quality superVGA games, but sometimes there's just no way.
: It would be interesting to see how Shareware develops with the rest of the
: gaming market going to CD-ROM faaast.
: arjan brussee - programmer of JJ
Where there is a will there is a way. I have a 14.4k modem and I am upgrading
to 28.8k and I dont think that it would be a problem at all if you had a
shareware game that was 6-8 sides or disks! If Quality equals disk space,
more power to Apogee! I would be willing to pay for good quality software,
even if its 15 disks!
And I can just pull things off the net, so I don't even need a modem.
The thing is, there are MANY people out there who still have 14.4 modems,
and I dare say quite a few 9600s (maybe even 2400) out there. When people
buy a new computer, they don't come with the latest and greatest 28.8
modem, they usually come with a 14.4 faxmodem. After someone has spent
around $2,000 on a new computer, they won't want to spend another $300
or so to get a new modem, especially since one just came with their new
computer, they will want to use what they have. At least the shareware
people haven't taken Origin's attitude yet.
Tom
--
Thomas M. Buccelli (t...@idm.com)
#include <std_disclaimer.h>
Especially when their last ten or so games have had SB/Adlib sounds and
VGA graphics. The last 3 or 4 have had native support for 8+ sound cards.
In the last five games, only two were platformers, one of which (Hocus)
was admittedly bad, the other of which (Duke II) was quite good.
Save for Jazz Jackrabbit (by far the best shareware platformer ever), Epic's
track record isn't that hot either. Epic Pinball was good, but they're
still trying to fix all the bugs that make it crash on every other person's
system. Xargon can't hold a candle to half the Apogee platformers. And
the Epic Puzzle Pack was pretty but poor. Traffic Department reeked. What
about Epic Baseball and One Must Fall 2097? Greater delays in release
dates Apogee has never dared. And last, but not least, Kroz is way cooler
than ZZT.
Geez. Like I mentioned before, Apogee's last TEN games were VGA. Yet what
they get for doing so from folks like you is "Graphics and sound to not a
game make."
And incidentally, a VGA version of Monster Bash is scheduled to be released
soon.
>Why not offer stuff that others do not, Super VGA
>(640x480) and (800x600) modes with 32,768 colors/16.7 million colors/Network
>support/Modem support, animation like flc files and digitized graphics and
>animation, phong or gaurad (spelling) shading, offer more to do then just
>simple run and jump, be creative and have stuff that you can interact with
>stuff and stuff can interact with you, multiple paralaxing screen layers, math
Actually, some of Apogee's old EGA platformers are much more creative in
this respect than Epic's Jazz Jackrabbit. Not that I have anything against
Jazz -- I love it, myself. Still, it has flaws, such as enemies that do
nothing but move around.
>deliver on time with no delays, when they say its going to be out in October,
>it better be out in October!
Apogee's last delay was Raptor, which was delayed a month. Id's last delay
is a working version of Doom, due for several months and still not out.
Epic's last delays were Jazz Jackrabbit, due last February; Epic Baseball,
also due last February; and One Must Fall, due last summer.
Apogee's latest track record has been near perfect with regard to meeting
release dates.
My "we're gonna kick your butt" comment was never meant in a mean-spirited
way. It was friendly taunting and nothing more. Unfortunately I think
I forget a grin or two. I learned my lesson about making statements
that way on the net. If you're joking about something make it terribly
obvious!
>Also I mustt include that I have personally been *banned* from all
>Intelec conferences after a disagreement with Joe Siegler on a number of
>your policies (on which you have since changed). It seems that Intelec is
>another 'net' that like to control opinions so you and swcbbs should feel
>at home with it.
I don't think that's Joe's fault. The Intellec moderators seem like
a pretty wound-up bunch. They need to relax a little more. If you sneeze
in the wrong direction they'll kick you off Intellec. It's really
stupid.
Mark Rein, Epic MegaGames.
I hate this rivalry baloney because it forgets the important thing and
that's COOL GAMES. We've got some - they've got some. We've got a few
in the works, they've got a bundle in the works. 1995 is going to be
a good year for shareware game fans!
Mark Rein, Epic MegaGames.
no way! ZZT is much better than Kroz.
Don't forget about id making fun of "jill of the jungle" in Commander
Keen -- In the instructions, something about kicking jill's but if
he ever sees her again :)
Explanation ACCEPTED! Now, back to work. (Crack! <whip>)
Actually, I like the little hidden remarks in the games. They are a cute part
of games that make players feel the programmers have a sense of humor.
I can't help but think the company who is the butt of the joke even enjoys it
a little bit too, it's always nice to get a little FREE advertising.
Pssst.... Can we move on now gang, and drop this garbage? There are Doom wads
to review and we're wasting time!
C-Ya'
Bruce R.
Don't forget the Jill bashing in Monster Bash.(If it's that jungle
Jill girl down the street I'll...)
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just Pretend that the wittiest signature you've ever seen is in this space
Ni...@Ra.MsState.Edu (James)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've said my 2 cents...
Lawrence Smith
===============
"Ender's Game, The Greatest Game in the universe!"
Lawrence
NU> Don't forget the Jill bashing in Monster Bash.(If it's that jungle
NU>Jill girl down the street I'll...)
Just to set the record straight here, this "kicking butt" comment was
in Monster Bash. There was no such comment in any Commander Keen
episode.
Joe Siegler - Apogee Software
---
* 1st v2.0b/TLX v4 * Hocus Pocus * Blink and you may miss something!
:Commander Keen -- In the instructions, something about kicking
:jill's but if he ever sees her again :)
The comment you are referring to was made in the game Monster
Bash fm Apogee, not id.
---
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Shawn Green (sha...@idsoftware.com) id Software |
| Send questions about id software to he...@idsoftware.com |
| FTP.UWP.EDU[131.210.1.4] id "Official" anonymous FTP site |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
> The comment you are referring to was made in the game Monster
> Bash fm Apogee, not id.
> ---
> +-------------------------------------------------------------------+
> | Shawn Green (sha...@idsoftware.com) id Software |
> | Send questions about id software to he...@idsoftware.com |
> | FTP.UWP.EDU[131.210.1.4] id "Official" anonymous FTP site |
> +-------------------------------------------------------------------+
*****************************************************************************
Shawn, how did you guy's manage to stay out of this flame war anyway <G>
I heard something about the ID guy's whooping it up with the Epic guy's
at that awards thing a couple a weeks ago :):):)
any left over water baloons????
ID gets my vote for sense of humor of the year :):):):)
Dave
They don't. I'll take Duke Nukem 2 over a game like Hocus Pocus any day
of the week.
SS>Actually, some of Apogee's old EGA platformers are much more creative in
SS>this respect than Epic's Jazz Jackrabbit. Not that I have anything against
What, in the fact that they copied more groovy ideas from console games
than Jazz? That they had more of those glorious "find the
key/animal/treasure before you can exit the level" puzzles? Jazz is like
Doom- it has enough cool stuff in it and it knew when to stop. Sure,
everyone says "Jazz could have had *this* in it... and this..." but what
makes the game so good is the simplicity.
If we didn't stop adding neat things, you wouldn't be playing the game
now. It'd still be in development.
SS>Epic's last delays were Jazz Jackrabbit, due last February; Epic Baseball,
We never set a public release date for Jazz Jackrabbit other than August
1st which was met. The other dates given were guesses and speculations.
Cliff Bleszinski- Designer of Jazz
---
* SLMR 2.1a *
Oh yes.......your games, 3D Realms/Apogee, Quake, us gamers will be verrry
happy. :)
>Mark Rein, Epic MegaGames.
--
Mark Ferris EMAIL: ma...@adcmail.atlas.com
Atlas Telecom VOICE: [USA] 1+503.228.1400 x242
4640 SW Macadam Ave. FAX: [USA] 1+503.228.0368
Portland, OR 97201 personal email: ma...@nwcs.org
JR>no way! ZZT is much better than Kroz.
Shuuh!! I am a not-at-all-loyal apogee fan (means i think epic kicks
their, nuff said) but Kroz ROCKS!! as for zzt, just isn't fun,IMHO
*
** These are my words, not those of Frontline Tel-Com Systems
===========================================================================
Atlantic Resource Management - frntline.com - (207)967-0618
-*-
another quality system from... Frontline Tel-Com Systems
===========================================================================
========================================================
You missed my point. (Sidenote: I'd take DN2 over HP, too -- and DN2,
BTW, is VGA and one of Apogee's last *5* games.) My point was that Apogee
has been flamed for making crappy 16-color graphics games, but, yet, when
they *do* come out with VGA games, they get flamed for that, too. Sure, HP
is all graphics and no bite, but DN2, Blake Stone, and Raptor are all "pretty"
VGA games that have great gameplay, too.
>SS>Actually, some of Apogee's old EGA platformers are much more creative in
>SS>this respect than Epic's Jazz Jackrabbit. Not that I have anything against
>
>What, in the fact that they copied more groovy ideas from console games
>than Jazz? That they had more of those glorious "find the
>key/animal/treasure before you can exit the level" puzzles?
Frankly, I don't care where the ideas came from, the point is that they are
the first to show up on the PC. I don't have a console gaming system; I
don't care what games come out for them. Apogee is the one that brought
*me* these gaming concepts (tip of the hat to Jill and Xargon and Jazz, too)
so I'm happy.
But I must disagree with the idea that Jazz is good because of its
simplicity. One of the most important things in games like these is
creatively designed badguys. Bio Menace and Monster Bash, for example, had
all kinds of unique monsters that fought back in unusual and different ways.
Jazz' one (big) flaw is that its monsters just sit around like dummies.
Except for the bosses, they don't even try to grab you, they just walk/fly
along like innocent bystanders until you shoot them. Yawn.
That said, I love Jazz anyway.
--
"Snake rules!" "Ya, but--" "Humbug." "Thaynk yew!" "Quainold." "What?"
"COME HERE YOU GOTTA SEE THIS!" "Die in evil pain." "Huh?" "Never mind."
"Hsk is a weenie." "Thaynk yew." "it'S alL sO cleAR tO mE noW." "You turkey."
"Yo, Fuh'rina!" "Dude..." "Hail to the Rink!" "*Joy*!" "Where's my pen?!?"
"Hmuh?" "AARGH!" "Sorry!" "Thaynk yew." "Co' gots de whup'!" "Very well."
"Jethegibbethegerethegish." "Eat flaming death." "Hey Sam, where's Tetris?!?"
"Mighty fine." "Silly banana eating turkey vulture." "Thaynk yew." "What??"
"Dude!" "Ya, but--" "Out-hack Farhad!" "I don't renember." "*Joy*!" "Huh?"