would be better with 1st-person view (was Re: Dungeon Siege -- it'sall that)
Eep²
3D games aren't 2D games. 3D game developers must learn to give up control to the player since there are so many computer configurations out there and the developers are usually too stupid to figure out the optimal settings for each configuration so they should simply let the player tweak things if s/he wants to. Sure, the developer can set up base settings and stuff but because computer technology advances too rapidly for them to keep up it's best to let everything be as tweakable as possible to the end-user. Note: I'm not saying to FORCE the end-user to HAVE to tweak things but simply that the capability is there should the user CHOOSE to tinker with it.
Just look at the Quake engine games and all that's possible through the console for a reason why it's necessary. The Quake engine is the most popular 3D engine out there (for PC games anyway)--and it's not just coincidence either.
Lucian Wischik wrote:
> CardinalT <card...@helpmejebus.com> wrote:
> >On the technical side, I don't see what the big deal is. It's simply a
> >matter of where you set the camera. You can set it in the middle of the
> >character's head looking forward, or you can set it up in the sky looking
> >down. The engine's the same either way, and the textures too.
>
> "The deal" is the single biggest technical problem in 3d graphics!
>
> Imagine for instance that each square meter of terrain takes up 100bytes
> of memory. With a sort-of-top-down-camera, you can keep in memory all the
> terrain in a 200m radius, and you can stream it into the video card while
> the party walks (i.e. no loading screen). That's because the camera will
> never see further than that 200m radius. It takes 11mb.
>
> Now imagine you want a first-person perspective. You need a bigger view
> distance now to avoid ugly popup -- say about 1k. (which is still so short
> that it looks crummy). The user can rotate their head quickly, so you need
> the entire terrain in a 1k radius. This takes 300 MEGAbytes. There's no
> way you can keep this in memory or in the video card. Computers just don't
> have the bandwidth, either from disk to memory, or from memory to video
> card.
>
> What's needed is a way to store the terrain at multiple resolutions, so
> the system can load a simple geometry model for stuff that's far away and
> a complicated one close up. This is a complicated problem. And no one,
> anywhere, has yet come up with a general solution.
Lucian Wischik
>Lucian Wischik wrote:
>> What's needed is a way to store the terrain at multiple resolutions
Given that I mentioned it in the very text you quote, apparently I have
heard of it! It is new. The ROAM algorithm is the first decent one for
terrain, and it was published in 1997. But it only works for the ground
mesh, and isn't any use for trees or houses. It's also not suitable for
extreme long distances and isn't pre-computed. Tresspasser tried to
pre-render distant geometry onto textures, and failed.
>Just look at the Quake engine games
Coincidentally, most of them in corridors, so the problem of distance
doesn't arise. And all of them with much simpler geometry.
--
Lucian Wischik, Queens' College, Cambridge CB3 9ET. www.wischik.com/lu
Eep²
Lucian Wischik
>Lucian Wischik wrote:
>> What's needed is a way to store the terrain at multiple resolutions
Doh! That's "Multiple resolutions" means!
>> Tresspasser tried to pre-render distant geometry onto textures
>Trespasser is hardly the only game that implements LOD either--and it
>doesn't fail; it just looks like shit because it's not seamless.
However, I'm pretty sure it's the only one that uses the specific
technique I mentioned. As for graphics techniques failing: surely, if it
looks shit, then it has failed?
>However, seamless LOD IS possible (for example Jedi Knight 2
From what I've seen, the levels on Jedi Knight 2 are designed with simple
geometry and corridors, and the only mountains are far away. Entirely
different from Dungeon Siege. I don't believe it uses multiple LODs for
the terrain geometry at all.
Eep²
> Eep^2 <eepN...@tnlc.com> wrote:
> >Lucian Wischik wrote:
> >> What's needed is a way to store the terrain at multiple resolutions
> >Uh, where did you mention "LOD" or "level of detail", Lucian?
>
> Doh! That's "Multiple resolutions" means!
Regardless, you were just referring to terrain, while I'm referring to terrain AND objects. Regardless of THAT, LOD is already here and works well enough to be a performance improvement.
> >> Tresspasser tried to pre-render distant geometry onto textures
> >Trespasser is hardly the only game that implements LOD either--and it
> >doesn't fail; it just looks like shit because it's not seamless.
>
> However, I'm pretty sure it's the only one that uses the specific
> technique I mentioned. As for graphics techniques failing: surely, if it
> looks shit, then it has failed?
Not necessarily; just because it fails visually doesn't mean it fails technically. Was frame rate increased because of Trespasser's terrain/object LOD? You bet.
> >However, seamless LOD IS possible (for example Jedi Knight 2
>
> From what I've seen, the levels on Jedi Knight 2 are designed with simple
> geometry and corridors, and the only mountains are far away. Entirely
> different from Dungeon Siege. I don't believe it uses multiple LODs for
> the terrain geometry at all.
Well, I'm not talking about TERRAIN LOD specifically (which I doubt JK2 and any other Quake-engine game does anyway). Want a good terrain LOD engine? Try Project: I'm Going In, although it can be annoying watching it "morph" since it's too close; if it happened farther away from the camera it would be better.
Eric VanHeest
> Regardless, you were just referring to terrain, while I'm referring
> to terrain AND objects. Regardless of THAT, LOD is already here and
> works well enough to be a performance improvement.
Good old Eep; change the argument when shown to be incorrect.
Eep²
Eric VanHeest
> Nope; I change it when the subject changes. Oh the logic!
Eep changes the subject -and- the argument at the same time - i.e. when
he's being proven wrong :)
I almost wish he were smart enough to use his newsreader properly, but
he wouldn't be nearly as much fun then.
-LarsB
"Eep²" spew
> Uh, where did you mention "LOD" or "level of detail", Lucian? Trespasser
is hardly the only game that implements LOD either
Dear Eep...
Every 3D game.... yes.... every 3D game of the last 10 years uses LOD to
improve performance....
In that respect Trespasser was not new...
Look up LOD in the dictionary if in any doubt...
Trespasser had more world objects, attempted real life physics, and had
longer viewing distances than other games of that time.
In that respect they were inovative... they tried, and they failed, but that
had little to do with LOD.
The real bad popping in Trespasser that caused all the bad hype, was _NOT_
really caused by LOD, I repeat NOT caused by LOD.... but a technique where
you prerender ( please say P_R_E_R_E_N_D_E_R slowly after me ) distant
objects to a single texture. The popping occurs then you shift from the 2D
background texture to the 3D object. That is not LOD.... NOT LOD.... (
please say N_O_T L_O_D slowly after me )
You once again ( with elegance might I add ) demonstrates your unbelievable
ignorance, despite the fact that you have yabbed your way through a zillion
posts during the last years, and thus must have come across these matters
before....
Could this be caused by plain stupidity ?
As allways Eepy... Im only your humble servant...
-LarsB
Eep²
> "Eep˛" spew
> > Uh, where did you mention "LOD" or "level of detail", Lucian? Trespasser
> is hardly the only game that implements LOD either
>
> Dear Eep...
>
> Every 3D game.... yes.... every 3D game of the last 10 years uses LOD to
> improve performance....
> In that respect Trespasser was not new...
> Look up LOD in the dictionary if in any doubt...
>
> Trespasser had more world objects, attempted real life physics, and had
> longer viewing distances than other games of that time.
> In that respect they were inovative... they tried, and they failed, but that
> had little to do with LOD.
>
> The real bad popping in Trespasser that caused all the bad hype, was _NOT_
> really caused by LOD, I repeat NOT caused by LOD.... but a technique where
> you prerender ( please say P_R_E_R_E_N_D_E_R slowly after me ) distant
> objects to a single texture. The popping occurs then you shift from the 2D
> background texture to the 3D object. That is not LOD.... NOT LOD.... (
> please say N_O_T L_O_D slowly after me )
Sorry but you're wrong. Trespasser has both object AND texture LOD (not even mipmapping either). Read Trespasser's postmortem to get a clue, wonderTwinkie: http://www.gamasutra.com/features/19990514/trespasser_01.htm
> You once again ( with elegance might I add ) demonstrates your unbelievable
> ignorance, despite the fact that you have yabbed your way through a zillion
> posts during the last years, and thus must have come across these matters
> before....
<yawn> Consider yourself filtered in THIS newsgroup too, putz.
> Could this be caused by plain stupidity ?
Yes, yours. <chuckle>
Lucian Wischik
>The real bad popping in Trespasser that caused all the bad hype, was _NOT_
>really caused by LOD, I repeat NOT caused by LOD.... but a technique where
>you prerender ( please say P_R_E_R_E_N_D_E_R slowly after me ) distant
>objects to a single texture. The popping occurs then you shift from the 2D
>background texture to the 3D object. That is not LOD.... NOT LOD.... (
>please say N_O_T L_O_D slowly after me )
Hmm... my supervisor for computer graphics did his phd on this particular
pre-rendering technique, along with automatic geometry simplification, and
he called it "levels of detail".
I think you and eep are caught up in buzzwords. "Level of detail" means
precisely that -- you store things at multiple levels of detail. This
might be accomplished by storing entirely different meshes (e.g. Quake,
X-Wing). Or it might be accomplished dynamically by simplifying the
terrain mesh (e.g. ROAM, Black&White). Or it might be accomplished by
simplified geometry and pre-rendered textures (e.g. Tresspasser).
I think it's misleading to fixate on one of these technologies and call it
"level of detail" and claim that the others aren't. Especially since the
subject is so young and everyone's still learning and trying new
approaches.
-LarsB
you alter the number of vertices drawn.
I cant remember the specific technique from the top of my head, but its not
normally referred to as LOD. It was based on a technique used by Microsoft,
and considered at the time to be the way to go with 3D hardware.
Im not caught up in buzzwordds with Eep... Im simply insulting the little
prick for being such a pain in the ass....
Pretty simply ;o)
-LarsB
"Lucian Wischik" <ljw...@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:a97oci$t1h$1...@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk...
ZZ
> Hmm... my supervisor for computer graphics did his phd on this particular
> pre-rendering technique, along with automatic geometry simplification, and
> he called it "levels of detail".
>
> I think you and eep are caught up in buzzwords. "Level of detail" means
> precisely that -- you store things at multiple levels of detail. This
> might be accomplished by storing entirely different meshes (e.g. Quake,
> X-Wing). Or it might be accomplished dynamically by simplifying the
> terrain mesh (e.g. ROAM, Black&White). Or it might be accomplished by
> simplified geometry and pre-rendered textures (e.g. Tresspasser).
>
> I think it's misleading to fixate on one of these technologies and call it
> "level of detail" and claim that the others aren't. Especially since the
> subject is so young and everyone's still learning and trying new
> approaches.
i havent seen the game (tresspasser crashed win2000 all 3x i tried to start it
up even in the safe mode)
but anyways this sounds very much like 'imposters' ie render the 3d object into
a texture + display that so long as the camera doesnt move to much direction
vector wise u should be ok
--
-- captain lovespunk and the spaceship ecstasy -- preaching from S 44°42 E
169°07
now the catains mission was to seek out all forms of intelligent life
he and the good ship ecstasy had a message of luv to spread
http://uk.geocities.com/sloppyturds/gotterdammerung.html
Jason A. Kozak
>Ever heard of LOD, Lucian? It's nothing new...and neither are games with
>short far clipping planes. All you have to do is rotate the camera down and
>you'll see Dungeon Siege's far clipping plane easily enough; what's the big
>deal if it's the same distance in 1st-person view too? It isn't...and the player
>should have control over the distance as well like in other 3D games.
Eep, if you even had the slightest idea of what you were talking
about, you'd know that LOD can often be slower than static geometry.
More Control = More Generic Solutions = Less Optimization
Opportunities = Slower Game = Higher Requirements = Less Sales
Jason Kozak
--
"I think you've lost your head." - LShaping
Jason A. Kozak
>I guess you are right, but in normal "3D language", you refer to LOD when
>you alter the number of vertices drawn.
*Bzzt* Wrong. Level of Detail is any technique that alters the "Level
of Detail". Just because the majority of implementations deal with
reducing the polygons that are drawn doesn't mean that's all it's
about.
>I cant remember the specific technique from the top of my head, but its not
>normally referred to as LOD. It was based on a technique used by Microsoft,
>and considered at the time to be the way to go with 3D hardware.
Impostors, at least that's what they're called now, and it's a
technique that's being revived, especially in the case where you have
mass quantities of an object, like forests.
NVidia has an implementation using 32 textures which you can check out
in their effects browser (assuming you've got a Geforce3+):
http://developer.nvidia.com/view.asp?IO=voltex_impostors
Eep²
Peter Cowderoy
> I know exactly what I'm talking about, Jason. LOD has come a long way and if it's slower than static geometry it's simply not programmed very well because the whole POINT of LOD is to increase frame rate, not decrease it. Duh.
>
The first and second statements here are in direct contradiction. But
then, those of us who actually understand the issues here already knew
that.
'In Ankh-Morpork even the shit have a street to itself...
Truly this is a land of opportunity.' - Detritus, Men at Arms