50G Cable Survey
TW
the signals coming out of the serial port on the 50G. It will be a
mini B 4 pin to DB9 cable, with an inline converter powered from the
battery wire.
We are mainly doing this to allow connection to surveying equipment,
and as such the wire will probably have a male connector since the
cables from surveying equipment are female. So the question is:
What do you think a fair price for this cable would be?
Any other comments/thoughts are appreciated.
TW
reth
Cheers, Reth
scooter
TW wrote:
> What do you think a fair price for this cable would be?
>
> TW
$20 to $25 is reasonable.
Thanks
sbw
Wayne Brown
I won't be buying a 50G, so I won't need the cable, but if you're
interested in an opinion from a non-customer: $20 to $30 US would seem
about right to me.
--
Wayne Brown <fwb...@bellsouth.net> (HPCC #1104)
Þæs oferéode, ðisses swá mæg. ("That passed away, this also can.")
"Deor," from the Exeter Book (folios 100r-100v)
mk
> So we are getting a few sample cables.. It will be a
> mini B 4 pin to DB9 cable, with an inline converter powered from the battery wire.
more like a home-made cable with the DB9 end having screw-held
back-shell halves and a heat-shrink blob where the converter is (I'd
pay less than $12.00), or will it more consumer grade with molded
connectors with strain-relief, etc..(I'd pay up to $25) ?
>
> will probably have a male connector since the
> cables from surveying equipment are female.
So a female-to-female DB9 gender-changer will allow it to plug into a
standard male PC com port?
>
> Any other comments/thoughts are appreciated.
When can I buy one? "If you build it, they will come" (Field of
Dreams)
Thanks,
mk
duenod...@gmail.com
TW ha escrito:
> We are mainly doing this to allow connection to surveying equipment,
WHAT KIND OF EQUIPMENT ?
I WISH TO CONNECT MY HP DIRECT TO MY MAGELLAN GPS (MERIDIAN COLOR) BUT
THE MAGELLAN HAS A VERY PARTICULAR CONECTION CABLE SO, I WILL NEED A 9
PIN MALE TERMINATOR IN ORDER TO USE THE GPS CABLE.
> What do you think a fair price for this cable would be?
UP TO USD$25.oo WILL BE FINE FOR ME. (EXPECTING ANOTHER USD$10-15 FOR
HANDLING IT BY POST TO COSTA RICA).
> Any other comments/thoughts are appreciated.
BY NOW I AM TRANSFERING DATA WITH THE SD CARD, WORKS FINE BUT IT TAKES
SOME TIME TO TAKE OFF THE SD FROM THE GPS (OPEN IT, TAKE OFF THE
BATTERIES, UNPLUG SD, SET BATTERIES, CLOSE GPS TWICE TO INSERT BACK
THE SD) AND SOMETIMES RAINFALL DON LET ME MAINTAINING OPEN THE GPS.
SO I THINK A SERIAL CABLE WILL HELP ME DOING THIS EASIER AND FASTER.
> TW
Daniel Pérez
TW
> standard male PC com port?
Yes a simple adapter will change it. It will not have any sort of
"homemade" look to it. We are going to put an order in from a supplier
in Taiwan for a few hundred cables if the samples work out. The
converter will be completely housed in the DB9 end of the cable and you
wouldn't even know it was there by looking at it.
TW
Zonn
<1155870265.1...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>, "TW"
<timwe...@gmail.com> wrote:
What kind of battery life are you expecting, or said another way, what is the
current draw of your inline converter?
Assuming I can get more than a few days of battery life with the cable plugged
in, I'd pay $25 ~ $30.
-Zonn
--
Zonn Moore Remove the ".AOL" from the
Zektor, LLC email address to reply.
www.zektor.com
Jean-Yves Avenard
> Yes a simple adapter will change it. It will not have any sort of
> "homemade" look to it. We are going to put an order in from a supplier
> in Taiwan for a few hundred cables if the samples work out. The
> converter will be completely housed in the DB9 end of the cable and you
> wouldn't even know it was there by looking at it.
Obviously they've done such cables before for the 48GII ...
Jean-Yves
John H Meyers
> You should contact Kinpo.
> Obviously they've done such cables before for the 48GII ...
The new proposed 50G cable
(to meet real RS-232 specs)
seems intended to be powered
directly from the 6v. calc batteries,
thru the new version of the serial port.
Was 48Gii calc battery power
(or other internal calc power supply output)
available from the serial port itself?
If not, then would any external power for 48Gii
have had to come from the other end (not the calc end)?
[r->] [OFF]
lfmor...@gmail.com
> TW wrote:
> > So we are getting a few sample cables.. It will be a
> > mini B 4 pin to DB9 cable, with an inline converter powered from the battery wire.
> I'm trying to get a picture in my mind about this cable. Will it look
> more like a home-made cable with the DB9 end having screw-held
> back-shell halves and a heat-shrink blob where the converter is (I'd
> pay less than $12.00), or will it more consumer grade with molded
> connectors with strain-relief, etc..(I'd pay up to $25) ?
>
> >
> > will probably have a male connector since the
> > cables from surveying equipment are female.
> So a female-to-female DB9 gender-changer will allow it to plug into a
> standard male PC com port?
Certainly it would need to be a NULL-Modem (ie. cross-over) in addition
to a gender-changing adaptor, right?
-Luke
John H Meyers
> Certainly it would need to be a NULL-Modem (ie. cross-over) in addition
> to a gender-changing adaptor, right?
Since the calc port isn't any standard RS-232 connector,
it has no meaning by itself as either DCE or DTE;
only when a cable is attached to the calc,
then the standard connector at the non-calc end of the cable,
when the cable is plugged into the calc,
will end up being wired as either DCE or DTE.
The HP48/49 serial cables always made the calculators appear as
DCE (like modems), and were ready to plug directly into a computer.
For reasons why this was so, please see:
Re: TX/RX/DCE/DTE... (Re: Trouble with modem) [1996/10/27]
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.hp48/msg/933fee5bee86336b
Re: PC cable on a MAC., null-modems, DCE, DTE, ... [1997/07/10]
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.hp48/msg/b8b00a3783cd112e
The makers of the proposed 50G cables can of course have their own
thoughts on the matter -- ask them which way they intend to make it
(and why, if different from the HP48/49 serial cables).
[r->] [OFF]
lfmor...@gmail.com
Tim was proposing a cable that was designed with "a DB9 cable" which
would "probably have a male connector" so that it could connect
directly to the female connectors of common data collectors.
I proceeded under the assumption that those data collectors, with their
female connectors, would be wired as DCE's for convenient connection to
PC's (and to conform with the norm that female DB9's are used in
general as DCE's).
Therefore, the cable Tim was proposing must be wired as a DTE.
As such, in order to use it for communication with a PC, a null modem
would be needed to switch its wiring from DTE over to DCE.
- Luke
James M. Prange
Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say that the cable "must" be
wired in any particular way, but it seems reasonable to expect
that the male DB9 connector would be wired as coming from a DTE
(Data Terminal Equipment) device, appropriate for connecting with
a DCE (Data Communications Equipment) device. Assuming that this
is the case, yes, although a female to female straight-through
"gender changer" would allow a physical connection to another DTE
device, such as a PC's EIA-232 port, it would improperly connect
output to output and input to input, and what would be needed
instead is a female to female "null modem" adapter or cable, to
connect output to input and vice versa. In either case, the signal
grounds of the devices would be connected, as would the shields.
There are a variety of "null-modem" configurations for connecting
the other lines in different ways, but they all treat these four
line the same way.
Of course, for the "3-wire" (not counting the "shield" as a signal
wire) subset of EIA-232, the distinction between DCE and DTE is
merely a matter of which signal lines are connected to which pins.
At one time I used to connect the 48SX to the 48GX using a pair of
4-pin to female DB9 cables with a null model adapter connecting
them, so I suppose that one could say that they were *both* DCE.
In cases where neither device uses a DB25 or DB9 connector, who
can say which is DTE and which is DCE? For example, now I connect
a 48 to a 48 using a 49G's 10-pin to 10-pin cable with a 10-pin to
4-pin adapter on each end, or a 48 to a 49G using the same cable
with the adapter on only one end, or a 49G to a 49G using the same
cable without adapters. Maybe "DTE" and "DCE" simply don't apply
for such cases?
--
Regards,
James
lfmor...@gmail.com
>
> <snip>
>
> In cases where neither device uses a DB25 or DB9 connector, who
> can say which is DTE and which is DCE? For example, now I connect
> a 48 to a 48 using a 49G's 10-pin to 10-pin cable with a 10-pin to
> 4-pin adapter on each end, or a 48 to a 49G using the same cable
> with the adapter on only one end, or a 49G to a 49G using the same
> cable without adapters. Maybe "DTE" and "DCE" simply don't apply
> for such cases?
>
> --
> Regards,
> James
I assure you, I'm perfectly comfortable with the concepts of
asynchronous serial communications, and many aspects of digital data
communications in general. I am trained in it, and I work with it
extensively every day of my life.
And I really do think we're on the same page here; I don't understand
how an argumentative tone made it into the discussion. I agree that
it's irrelavent to discuss the "DTE/DCE-ness" of the HP calculator
itself.
I was merely making an observation based on my personal analysis of the
specific cable that Tim was proposing at the start of this thread, to
answer another poster's question about whether a gender-changer would
be all that'd be needed to use that particular cable to connect the HP
to a PC.
- Luke
James M. Prange
<snip>
> I assure you, I'm perfectly comfortable with the concepts of
> asynchronous serial communications, and many aspects of digital data
> communications in general. I am trained in it, and I work with it
> extensively every day of my life.
>
> And I really do think we're on the same page here; I don't understand
> how an argumentative tone made it into the discussion. I agree that
> it's irrelavent to discuss the "DTE/DCE-ness" of the HP calculator
> itself.
>
> I was merely making an observation based on my personal analysis of the
> specific cable that Tim was proposing at the start of this thread, to
> answer another poster's question about whether a gender-changer would
> be all that'd be needed to use that particular cable to connect the HP
> to a PC.
Well, please excuse me, Luke.
I certainly didn't mean to imply that you (or John either, for
that matter) might be lacking in knowledge in this area, or to
have an argumentative tone. I do believe that the three of us are
pretty much "on the same page".
And I'm sure that Tim was well aware that the "simple adapter"
would have to be of the "null modem" type, but simply neglected to
mention that.
For all I know, "mk" may or may not have realized that the
gender-changer would very likely have to be of the null modem
variety. I think that it was good of you to point out that
essential requirement.
But I've seen enough very strange wiring and connector usage to
take slight issue with your statement that Tim's cable "must" be
wired in any particularly way. I certainly hope and expect that it
will be wired in a "conventional" manner, but I can't really be
sure of that.
The thing is, when we post in a newsgroup, we aren't necessarily
writing only, or even mostly, for the person whose post we're
responding to; we're writing to the entire newsgroup. Quite often
when I write, I'm not disagreeing with what someone else has
written, but rather expanding on it.
I know that I have a tendency to make a short story long. Those
who'd rather not read my posts are very welcome to ignore them.
For what it's worth, for any previous model with a serial port,
having the calculator together with its cable configured as a DCE
made the most sense, because probably the most frequent use of its
serial port was for a connection to a PC. After all, the
relatively few of us who connected the calculators to other DCE
devices could simply use a null modem in the connection, or use a
custom-made cable.
But with the 50g, I very much expect that most connections to PCs
will be via USB, with some IrDA connections, and to other IrDA
equipped calculators via IrDA, although perhaps a few connections
among some 50g and 48gII calculators will be via the serial ports
(without EIA-232). So what will the serial port be used for? Well,
no doubt a few of us will use it for connecting to a PC; after
all, there are some things that seem to be rather difficult to
accomplish with a USB connection to a PC (at least with an MS
Windows system). I expect that the most frequent use of the serial
port on the 50g will be for connecting to devices other than a PC,
which are usually configured as DCE, so having the 50g (together
with the cable/converter) configured DTE seems to make the most
sense to me. After all, the relatively few of us who choose to
connect a 50g to a PC via the serial port can simply use a null
modem, or obtain a different cable/converter.
--
Regards,
James
John H Meyers
> Since the calc port isn't any standard RS-232 connector,
> it has no meaning by itself as either DCE or DTE;
> only when a cable is attached to the calc,
> then the standard connector at the non-calc end of the cable,
> when the cable is plugged into the calc,
> will end up being wired as either DCE or DTE.
On Sat, 02 Sep 2006 04:30:45 -0500, James M. Prange wrote:
> In cases where neither device uses a DB25 or DB9 connector, who
> can say which is DTE and which is DCE? For example, now I connect
> a 48 to a 48 using a 49G's 10-pin to 10-pin cable with a 10-pin to
> 4-pin adapter on each end, or a 48 to a 49G using the same cable
> with the adapter on only one end, or a 49G to a 49G using the same
> cable without adapters. Maybe "DTE" and "DCE" simply don't apply
> for such cases?
Yep, I think we all agree on that :)
It's only when we come to a "standard connector"
and need to mate that with another of same,
that we need ask whether the "transmit" wire of one
will end up plugged into the "receive" wire of the other, and vice versa,
which will be so if one satisfies the DCE convention (common to modems)
while the other satisfies the DTE convention (common to terminals),
and not otherwise.
If we end up with a wrong mating, we can avoid rewiring
simply by inserting a "null modem" connector,
which typically has one male and one female connector,
and simply reverses the TX and RX wires in between.
The DB9/DB25 end of previous standard serial cables for
HP48/49 <-> PC had a female connector wired as DCE,
and thus mated directly with any standard PC serial port
(male, DTE); similar Mac cables were also once available.
If serial cables for 50G are mostly expected to plug into
things like GPS, what sort of standard termination
are those most likely to have?
If you want a cable that fits everything (at slight
additional cost), perhaps cables having two heads
at one end could be considered.
[r->] [OFF]
John H Meyers
> For all I know, "mk" may or may not have realized that
> the gender-changer would very likely have to be
> of the null modem variety.
I have seen (for about $5 each at Radio Shack):
o M-M gender changer DB9
o F-F gender changer DB9
o Null modem adapter (M-F) DB9
But never have I seen a single "null modem gender changer"
(of which there would also be two types, M-M and F-F);
the only way I can get that (other than by making one myself)
is to buy two of the above adapters and plug them in series,
which isn't very convenient.
[r->] [OFF]
Eric Smith
> I have seen (for about $5 each at Radio Shack):
>
> o M-M gender changer DB9
> o F-F gender changer DB9
> o Null modem adapter (M-F) DB9
>
> But never have I seen a single "null modem gender changer"
> (of which there would also be two types, M-M and F-F);
Unfortunately *many* of the DB25 null modems were of the
M-M or F-F variety. There were also a lot of different
schemes for wiring the handshake lines. So if you just bought
a "null modem", it was nearly impossible to tell what to
expect.
By the way, DB9 connectors do not exist. They are DE9.
If a DB9 connector did exist, it would have a DB size shell
(the same size as a DB25), but with only 9 pins.
James M. Prange
Eric Smith wrote:
> "John H Meyers" <jhme...@nomail.invalid> writes:
>> I have seen (for about $5 each at Radio Shack):
>>
>> o M-M gender changer DB9
>> o F-F gender changer DB9
>> o Null modem adapter (M-F) DB9
>>
>> But never have I seen a single "null modem gender changer"
>> (of which there would also be two types, M-M and F-F);
Actually, I suppose that the best system (from the viewpoint of a
hobbyist who wants to know for sure which is which) would be to
make all cables "straight-through" M-F or of the F-F or M-M
gender-changer types, make F-F and M-M gender-changer adapters
available, and make all null modems of a M-F adapter type (after
all, a M-F straight-through adapter wouldn't make much sense).
That way the only question would be just which type of null modem
the M-F adapter was.
But the reality is that we have a variety of cables and adapters
available, and I can't tell for certain just by looking at it
whether any particular cable, F-F adapter, or M-M adapter is of
straight-through or the null modem variety, unless it happens to
be labelled.
Although they weren't available at John's local Radio Shack, it's
easy to find quite a variety of F-F and M-M null modem adapters
and cables with an on-line search, as well as M-F null modems, F-F
and M-M gender-changer adapters and even gender-changer cables,
and of course ordinary M-F straight-through cables.
Realistically, if I were designing a mass production solution for
connecting, say, a DCE to another DCE, both with female
connectors, some choices would be:
1. A M-M null modem cable.
2. A standard M-F straight-through cable plus a M-M null modem
adapter.
2. A M-F null modem adapter plus a M-M gender-changer cable.
3. A standard M-F straight-through cable, plus a M-F null modem
adapter, plus a M-M gender-changer adapter.
Which of the above do you suppose that I'd be most likely to
choose?
> Unfortunately *many* of the DB25 null modems were of the
> M-M or F-F variety.
I'd have guessed *most*; I don't think that I'd ever actually run
across a M-F null modem until John mentioned one, but then too, it
had been a long time since I'd looked for a null modem of any
type.
From the name "null modem" itself, I surmise that originally such
a device would've been for connecting a pair of close together
DTEs to each other directly, without having a pair of modems and
telephone equipment between them, so the F-F variety of null modem
(either adapter or cable) seems quite natural to me.
Of course, the serial port of a DTE can be used for connecting to
DCE devices other than modems, and such DCE devices can be often
be usefully connected to each other (or a modem) through their
serial ports. I suppose that, for better a worse, the term "null
modem", already in use for similar adapters, became attached to
M-M adapters for directly connecting DCEs to each other, although
"null terminal" would've been a more accurate name.
It seems to me that to make use of a M-F null modem, I'd (usually)
need a F-F gender changer to use it for connecting a pair of DTEs,
or a M-M gender changer to use it for connecting a pair of DCEs.
I'm aware that "gender-changer" F-F and M-M cables are available,
but the F-F and M-M cables that I've used were all of a "null
modem" variety. After all, what would I want a F-F cable for
besides connecting a pair of DTEs, or a M-M cable for besides
connecting a pair of DCEs? Yeah, I know, gender-changer cables
would be useful with M-F null modems, of course.
> There were also a lot of different
> schemes for wiring the handshake lines. So if you just bought
> a "null modem", it was nearly impossible to tell what to
> expect.
All too true, and I'd guess still true.
But for these calculators, we're only concerned with the data
signal and ground lines, and can often ignore how the handshaking
lines are connected, as long as it doesn't cause a failure in a
whatever equipment we're connecting a calculator to, that is.
For anything that actually uses the handshaking lines, I rather
prefer the double-ended adapters that I can wire together myself,
or a home-made cable and connectors assembly. Other than that, it
seems to be a matter of either trial and error or ringing out the
connections to find out how they're actually made to find a null
modem that works correctly.
> By the way, DB9 connectors do not exist. They are DE9.
>
> If a DB9 connector did exist, it would have a DB size shell
> (the same size as a DB25), but with only 9 pins.
Yes Eric, I'm quite aware of that, but "DB9" seems to be a very
common (mis)name for what's actually a DE9 connector. If we use
the term "DB9", then nearly everyone at all familiar with the
serial ports of PCs will understand what we mean. If I use the
term "DE9", then I expect that many (most?) would think that it's
a typo, unless I also explained that it was actually the correct
term.
But here's a strange one. For my Epson printers that have an
added-in serial port using a DB25 connector, it's a female
connector. Okay, that seems to make sense; a printer ought to be a
DCE, right? But wait, it's actually designed as a DTE, even though
it has a female connector. Why would that be? Well, I guess that
the explanation for it being DTE is that the printer already has a
built-in parallel port, which would normally be used for a
connection to a nearby PC, and I suppose that the reasoning is
that if an add-on serial port is wanted, then it's wanted for
connecting to a modem for connection through telephone equipment
to a remote modem and thence to another DTE. I don't know why
Epson used a female connector for a DTE, but it's yet another
example that things aren't always what they at first appear to be.
Anyway, to connect a calculator to these printers, I use a
gender-changer instead of a null modem, and to connect the printer
to a PC using the serial port (which I've never been sufficiently
motivated to try; the parallel port works just fine), I'd need a
null modem of the M-F variety (or an assembly that amounts to
that).
--
Regards,
James