MagiC Info
Mark D
Anyway, stomach this:
Hello,
> 1. Is MagiC going to be updated ever again for Atari? If so, is there a
> projected release date?
I don't think that there will be any update to the Atari version.
> 2. Could it be possible to either release the source code to MagiC's AES
> or to write a commercial AES available for use under MiNT?
No, I don't think so.
--
Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Oliver Buchmann
Application Systems Heidelberg Software GmbH
Pleikartsfoersterhof 4/1
69124 Heidelberg
Germany
Phone: ++49-6221-300002
Fax: ++49-6221-300389
www.application-systems.de
- Nuff said.... :'(
lp
at mduc...@nossspamXXatari-source.com wrote on 8/4/03 1:59 PM:
Bummer. ;-)
--
Lonny Pursell http://www.q1.net/~atari/html/for_sale.htm
Maurits van de Kamp
>>1. Is MagiC going to be updated ever again for Atari? If so, is there a
>>projected release date?
>
> I don't think that there will be any update to the Atari version.
In other words, open source or death. :)
Funny how in "some other threads" here, MagiC being locked away in the
dungeons of Andreas Kromke is a good thing, and an active team of MiNT
developers (nicely controlled by CVS and a kernel coordinator) is
described as "people screwing around with it" which is a bad thing.
Besides, MiNT sucks as an os because there are no new developments (well
there are, but they are not interesting for Atari users, well except the
MiNT users but they are silly and don't count), whereas MagiC rules
because it works with old software so you don't have to buy new
developments, even if there were. Which is good. Because paying for new
software sucks. Except when it's MagiC. Erm.. I'm getting confused now.
This stuff is more complicated than installing KGMD :)
Maurits.
lp
james....@enterprise.nasa.gov wrote on 8/5/03 5:29 AM:
That is a dead on impression of Dennis. Hilarious!!
> This stuff is more complicated than installing KGMD :)
lol
Mark D
well part of the reason I posted that was because of my own interest in
the future of MagiC.. I mean hey I own 3 copies including the latest
version but surely I don't deserve anymore updates. Considering I own not
a single copy of windows ;) I guess they just have a better marketing
team, that's all.
Anyway, the other reason I posted to usenet was exactly that. To settle
Dennis's dead assertion that MagiC has a brilliant future in the Atari
world. Unfortunately, and I say UNFORTUNATELY it doesn't. In a prior
argument with me, I remember him using that as ammo against me, that MagiC
will be having more updates. False....
Joseph D. Place
Not to add any flames to the subject, but I recently have done
something I never thought I would do as a frequent MagiC user. I
went back to using Geneva/Neodesk primarily. I have found that it is
the most stable environment for most of the software that I use every
day. Especially for "Newsie." For some reason it is much faster,
and I don't have the problems I sometimes experience with MagiC.
--
Joseph D. Place
ATARI Falcon030, 1040STe, STacy4, Portfolio, 130XE, 400
Maurits van de Kamp
> Not to add any flames to the subject, but I recently have done
> something I never thought I would do as a frequent MagiC user. I
> went back to using Geneva/Neodesk primarily.
That reminds me.. weren't there some promising experiments running
Geneva as an AES for MiNT long ago? How did that turn out?
Maurits.
Martin Byttebier
Myself have used it some time but found it rather unstable on the TT030.
I've tried it to make it running on the Hades using kernel 1.15.12 but
this test failed for some reason.
However years ago a friend of mine has used MiNT 1.12/MiNT-net/Geneva on
his TT030 during a long periode. He was very pleased with it.
CU,
Martin
--
UTSI: http://users.pandora.be/tos4ever/utsi.htm
Atari FTP-site: ftp://chapelie.rma.ac.be/atari/
Dennis Vermeire
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 22:44:56 -0400
Hi Mark,
>Anyway, the other reason I posted to usenet was exactly that. To settle
>Dennis's dead assertion that MagiC has a brilliant future in the Atari
>world. Unfortunately, and I say UNFORTUNATELY it doesn't. In a prior
>argument with me, I remember him using that as ammo against me, that MagiC
>will be having more updates. False....
Let's take another look at Oliver's reply:
There's a quite a difference between the replies given to question 1 and
question 2. When asked if the sources of MagiC could be released, he replies
with a straightforward "NO", the reply about the future update of MagiC-Atari
however isn't so straightforward, a "I don't think so"... is not exactly the
same as "no".
Instead of getting in touch with the German distributor, get in touch with
the programmer himself, I presume he at least knows the score? Has it ever
occured to you that ASH won't be releasing any future versions of MagiC for
the Atari anymore because of sales that are too low? Andreas Kromke follows
this group.... have you seen anything coming from him denying it? All I can
say is that development of MagiC is not dead yet. And unless the programmer
says so himself, I tend to believe him...
And then you can come in here and cry victory....
Cheers from Belgium
Dennis
--
____ ____ ____
/ __ \ / __ \ / __ \
/ / / / / / / / / /_/ /
/ / / / / / / / / ____/
/ /_/ / / /_/ / / /
/_____/ /_____/ /_/ Translations
http://ddp.atari.org
der...@cix.co.uk
dennis....@gmx.net
xla...@cix.co.compulink.co.uk
Dennis Vermeire
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 11:29:54 +0200
Hi Maurits,
>Funny how in "some other threads" here, MagiC being locked away in the
>dungeons of Andreas Kromke is a good thing, and an active team of MiNT
>developers (nicely controlled by CVS and a kernel coordinator) is
>described as "people screwing around with it" which is a bad thing.
I said that the thought of a bunch of people fucking around with MagiC
would make my stomach turn....
That is not quite the same thing is it?
It's about time this platform gets a better universal newsreader. Half of
the posts here refer to things that never have been written, either these
posters have a lively imagination or we need a better newsreader.
Mike Freeman
> Op Wed, 06 Aug 2003 14:14:02 +0200, schreef Maurits van de Kamp:
>
> > Joseph D. Place wrote:
> >
> >> Not to add any flames to the subject, but I recently have done
> >> something I never thought I would do as a frequent MagiC user. I went
> >> back to using Geneva/Neodesk primarily.
> >
> > That reminds me.. weren't there some promising experiments running
> > Geneva as an AES for MiNT long ago? How did that turn out?
>
> Myself have used it some time but found it rather unstable on the TT030.
> I've tried it to make it running on the Hades using kernel 1.15.12 but
> this test failed for some reason.
> However years ago a friend of mine has used MiNT 1.12/MiNT-net/Geneva on
> his TT030 during a long periode. He was very pleased with it.
>
> CU,
> Martin
I use Geneva with Mint. It took a little fiddling with, but as far as
I can tell, it is fairly stable on my Falcon. I found when originally
setting it up, it was sometimes fussy with things like AUTO folder
order (more so than AES 4), and there was a program or two that
wouldn't like it, but it was mostly usable. I like the Geneva
environment (very nice for its time), and adding Mint, Thing, and
Boxkite gave it the nice Mint features like long filenames, etc. So it
can be quite usable if you get things set just right. When I switch
from Magic to Mint for certain tasks, or just for fun experimentation,
I pretty much stick to Geneva as an AES.
Mike Freeman
ma...@freeman-studio.com
Mark D
It's not a victory you lunatic! It's a sad defeat for everyone. I like MagiC. I'm just tired of it
crashing every time I walk away from the computer for half a day and come
back with nothing running. Machine problem? Funny, MiNT doesn't do that.
So yeah.. I'd like an update. But it's very poor fodder for you to
suggest that there will be updates. You sound as much like a fool pushing
your MagiC is the way of the future BS as you might think I do quoting a
word for word reply that says "No I don't think so". Hrmm.. Seems like a
No answer to me.
Mark D
> From: Maurits van de Kamp <james....@enterprise.nasa.gov>
> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 11:29:54 +0200
>
> Hi Maurits,
>
>>Funny how in "some other threads" here, MagiC being locked away in the
>>dungeons of Andreas Kromke is a good thing, and an active team of MiNT
>>developers (nicely controlled by CVS and a kernel coordinator) is
>>described as "people screwing around with it" which is a bad thing.
>
As for this post:
> I said that the thought of a bunch of people fucking around with MagiC
> would make my stomach turn....
> That is not quite the same thing is it?
>
Okay. Not sure why it would make your stomach turn. Seems like MagiC
becoming more stable on all platforms would do everyone good. And adding
the option of having MiNT extensions would totally rock and make MiNT not
my system of choice and XaAES not my AES of choice. Unfortunately for
everyone involved, MagiC is still LOADS faster than anything else. Even
if you have a CT60 like I do now, it's STILL noticeable.
> It's about time this platform gets a better universal newsreader. Half of
> the posts here refer to things that never have been written, either these
> posters have a lively imagination or we need a better newsreader.
>
They're ideas. I don't see you doing much in this NG except pushing
negative vibes.
> Cheers from Belgium
> Dennis
Djordje Vukovic
>Not to add any flames to the subject, but I recently have done
>something I never thought I would do as a frequent MagiC user. I
>went back to using Geneva/Neodesk primarily.
Keep an eye on the appearance of the new TeraDesk 3, soon.
Works nicely with Geneva (and other AESses as well...).
>I have found that it is >the most stable environment for most of the
>software that I use every day.... For some reason it is much faster,
>and I don't have the problems I sometimes experience with MagiC.
Indeed, Geneva is a very reliable option and -very- convenient for
lower-end Atari systems (it is small and fast).
Regards;
xla...@cix.compulink.co.uk
>It's not a victory you lunatic! It's a sad defeat for everyone.
>I like MagiC. I'm just tired of it crashing every time I walk
>away from the computer for half a day and come back with nothing
>running. Machine problem? Funny, MiNT doesn't do that.
I think there must be something wrong with your setup of MagiC or
some of the other programs running - or perhaps a hardware fault.
I can leave MagiC running for days on my Falcon and come back to
it still running perfectly. I don't say MagiC never crashes - but
when very occasionally it does it's either because I've done
something silly or am using a 'dirty' program.
Regards, /Peter/
Mark D
Peter,
Hrmm.. This happened only once with the CT60 so far but on original falcon
hardware and such it happened quite often. Also happened on Mega STe a
lot and TT not often. Seemed very erratic on different hardware.
Definately seems due to how "close" MagiC is to the system being written
in straight asm.
I don't see how my setup can be wrong. I have up-to-date stuff.. Nothing
strange running, COPS, NVDI 5.01, magxdesk, etc. It's a rather bland
stock setup. MagiC crashes weirdly for me on all hardware.
SYSTEM ANGEHALTEN
- all the time.
Like I said though, it sucks that this happens. I like MagiC. And it's
not like I have some warez copy or something. I have several different
versions of MagiC on original disks and a CD. I don't know what more I
could change to make things more stable?
Derryck Croker
xla...@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote on 8/8/03 19:13:
> In message <pan.2003.08.07....@nossspamXXatari-source.com>,
> mduc...@nossspamXXatari-source.com said:
>
>> It's not a victory you lunatic! It's a sad defeat for everyone.
>> I like MagiC. I'm just tired of it crashing every time I walk
> I think there must be something wrong with your setup of MagiC or
> some of the other programs running - or perhaps a hardware fault.
I totally agree Peter. MagiC 6.20 running on my Falcon is the most reliable
OS I've ever used (aside from TOS) and beats the pants of Windows and even
Mac OS 9.2.2.
--
Cheers
Derryck
____ ____ ____
/ __ \ / __ \ / __ \
/ / / / / / / / / /_/ /
/ /_/ / / /_/ / / ____/
/_____/ /_____/ /_/ Translations
der...@cix.co.uk
dennis....@gmx.net
xla...@cix.co.uk
http://ddp.atari.org
Derryck Croker
at mduc...@nossspamXXatari-source.com wrote on 9/8/03 07:45:
>>> I like MagiC. I'm just tired of it crashing every time I walk
>> I think there must be something wrong with your setup of MagiC or
>> some of the other programs running - or perhaps a hardware fault.
> I don't see how my setup can be wrong. I have up-to-date stuff.. Nothing
> strange running, COPS, NVDI 5.01, magxdesk, etc. It's a rather bland
> stock setup. MagiC crashes weirdly for me on all hardware.
Have you tried the old trick of turning pre-emptive multitasking off in your
Magx.inf file and turning it back on once your system has loaded in the CPX?
Lets your auto folder etc progs load and run to completion before the next
one starts.
I don't have the details of the exact command that you enter in the inf file
to hand.
Mark D
> In article pan.2003.08.09....@nossspamXXatari-source.com, Mark D
> at mduc...@nossspamXXatari-source.com wrote on 9/8/03 07:45:
>
>>>> I like MagiC. I'm just tired of it crashing every time I walk
>
>>> I think there must be something wrong with your setup of MagiC or
>>> some of the other programs running - or perhaps a hardware fault.
>
>> I don't see how my setup can be wrong. I have up-to-date stuff.. Nothing
>> strange running, COPS, NVDI 5.01, magxdesk, etc. It's a rather bland
>> stock setup. MagiC crashes weirdly for me on all hardware.
>
> Have you tried the old trick of turning pre-emptive multitasking off in your
> Magx.inf file and turning it back on once your system has loaded in the CPX?
> Lets your auto folder etc progs load and run to completion before the next
> one starts.
>
> I don't have the details of the exact command that you enter in the inf file
> to hand.
I haven't tried that but I cannot honestly believe that will help since
things are still loaded serially even though preemtive multitasking might
be enabled. Maybe I'm wrong though.
Thanks,
Mark
PS: And my stability issues come after many hours of use usually.
David Bolt
>In article pan.2003.08.09....@nossspamXXatari-source.com, Mark D
>at mduc...@nossspamXXatari-source.com wrote on 9/8/03 07:45:
>> I don't see how my setup can be wrong. I have up-to-date stuff.. Nothing
>> strange running, COPS, NVDI 5.01, magxdesk, etc. It's a rather bland
>> stock setup. MagiC crashes weirdly for me on all hardware.
>
>Have you tried the old trick of turning pre-emptive multitasking off in your
>Magx.inf file and turning it back on once your system has loaded in the CPX?
>Lets your auto folder etc progs load and run to completion before the next
>one starts.
>
>I don't have the details of the exact command that you enter in the inf file
>to hand.
It's a matter of commenting out the #_TSL line, rather than adding a
command. E.g. I disabled it on my old system by changing the line:
#_TSL 4 32
to:
;#_TSL 4 32
Regards,
David Bolt
--
Member of Team Acorn checking nodes at 53 Mnodes/s: http://www.distributed.net/
AMD 1800 512Mb WinXP | AMD 2400 160Mb SuSE 8.1 | AMD 2400 256Mb SuSE 8.1
A3010 4Mb RiscOS 3.11 | A4000 4Mb RiscOS 3.11 | STE 4Mb TOS 1.62
Mike Freeman
> It's a matter of commenting out the #_TSL line, rather than adding a
> command. E.g. I disabled it on my old system by changing the line:
>
> #_TSL 4 32
>
> to:
>
> ;#_TSL 4 32
Does anyone anywhere have a list of what these 3-letter commands all
mean in the MAGX.INF file? I've been told by a few people that it is
better to edit the file using a text editor rather than using one of
the GUI-based configuration programs (is this correct?). However, I
feel really uncomfortable changing things when I have no idea what
most of it means. For example, I've heard this advice about turning
off pre-emptive multitasking a number of times, but usually this
advice comes with no explaination of how. And TSL doesn't exactly
scream out to me that it has anything to do with the multitasking mode
used, so this wouldn't be the obvious choice if I were to guess.
There's also nothing about this in the meager 40-page leaflet that
came with my English version of Magic 6.01 (passing itself off as a
manual). So it would be nice if there was some sort of reference web
page available (multi-lingual preferred, instead of just German). Is
there?
Mike Freeman
ma...@freeman-studio.com
Standa Opichal
Mike Freeman wrote:
>>;#_TSL 4 32
>
> Does anyone anywhere have a list of what these 3-letter commands all
> mean in the MAGX.INF file?
What about 'time slice'?
> I've been told by a few people that it is
> better to edit the file using a text editor rather than using one of
> the GUI-based configuration programs (is this correct?). However, I
> feel really uncomfortable changing things when I have no idea what
> most of it means.
BTW: I never did that by any GUI utility. ;)
> advice comes with no explaination of how. And TSL doesn't exactly
> scream out to me that it has anything to do with the multitasking mode
> used, so this wouldn't be the obvious choice if I were to guess.
> There's also nothing about this in the meager 40-page leaflet that
> came with my English version of Magic 6.01 (passing itself off as a
> manual). So it would be nice if there was some sort of reference web
> page available (multi-lingual preferred, instead of just German). Is
> there?
Yes, documentation is always the problem.
regards
STan
Mike Freeman
> Hi Mike!
>
> Mike Freeman wrote:
>
> >>;#_TSL 4 32
> >
> > Does anyone anywhere have a list of what these 3-letter commands all
> > mean in the MAGX.INF file?
>
> What about 'time slice'?
That's all fine and good, but how would one know that disabling this
"Time Slice" variable would turn off pre-emptive multitasking and turn
on cooperative? They don't exactly make it obvious, is my point.
> > I've been told by a few people that it is
> > better to edit the file using a text editor rather than using one of
> > the GUI-based configuration programs (is this correct?). However, I
> > feel really uncomfortable changing things when I have no idea what
> > most of it means.
>
> BTW: I never did that by any GUI utility. ;)
Ok. That's great! How did you learn what each of these 3-letter codes
meant, and what effect making these changes would do?
> > advice comes with no explaination of how. And TSL doesn't exactly
> > scream out to me that it has anything to do with the multitasking mode
> > used, so this wouldn't be the obvious choice if I were to guess.
> > There's also nothing about this in the meager 40-page leaflet that
> > came with my English version of Magic 6.01 (passing itself off as a
> > manual). So it would be nice if there was some sort of reference web
> > page available (multi-lingual preferred, instead of just German). Is
> > there?
>
> Yes, documentation is always the problem.
Exactly. Magic's manual should come with at least a list of
variables/commands that are usable in the MAGX.INF, describe their
usage in plain English (or German, or French... etc.) and let the user
have a little more info without being so complex and convoluted with
"programmer-ese" that it's impossible to sort things out for the
"average" user. Or at least there should be a web site with this info
available.
Mike Freeman
ma...@freeman-studio.com
Janez Valant
Hi.
>> Yes, documentation is always the problem.
>
> Exactly. Magic's manual should come with at least a list of
> variables/commands that are usable in the MAGX.INF, describe their
> usage in plain English (or German, or French... etc.) and let the user
> have a little more info without being so complex and convoluted with
> "programmer-ese" that it's impossible to sort things out for the
> "average" user. Or at least there should be a web site with this info
> available.
Or the cnf itself, could be made clearer. In Unix where lotsa cnf files
are to ber editet manualy, they use full names with explanations, something
like this (excerpt from mint.cnf):
<snip>
#-------------------------------------------------
# VARIABLES DESCRIPTIONS AND SETTINGS
#-------------------------------------------------
# SECURELEVEL= enables the appropriate security level:
# 0 - recommended for single user setups, like MultiTOS (default).
# 1 - recommended for multiuser setups, like KGMD.
# 2 - full protection, unsupported by software, thus discouraged.
SECURELEVEL=1
# FASTLOAD=YES forces fast loading (without zeroing all the memory)
# for all programs. This defines a default state, that can be modified
# later via appropriate kernel calls (use MiNT Setter utility to
# toggle it later when neessary, without reboots).
# FASTLOAD=NO means that the information from the program header will be
# used to decide (this is like TOS does).
FASTLOAD=YES
# NEWFATFS= enables the new FAT filesystem driver for selected FAT
# filesystems. The old TOS FS will be used otherwise.
#NEWFATFS=A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H,I,J,K,L,M,N,O,P,Q,R,S,T,V,W,X,Y,Z
NEWFATFS=A,B,C,D,G,H,J,K,N
<snip>
Its a lot easier to edit such config files. No need to peek into docs
etc, except for some more precise explanations...
Janez
P.S: maybe some docs with explanations on Web wouldnt be bad, the interested
ppl can easily add comments into cfg file by themselves for later usage?
Dennis Vermeire
Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 02:08:09 -0400
>It's not a victory you lunatic! It's a sad defeat for everyone. I like MagiC.
>I'm just tired of it crashing every time I walk away from the computer for half
>a day and come back with nothing running.
Ah.... but I'm a happy lunatic :-)
My computer(s) can run for months on end without crashing.
>Machine problem? Funny, MiNT doesn't do that.
Well then it's very obvious that you haven't setup MagiC properly...
>So yeah.. I'd like an update.
IMO an update won't fix your problem. Almost all MagiC 6.20 users I know have a
very stable setup. They would like to see an update also ofcourse, but not for
the same reasons as you.
>But it's very poor fodder for you to suggest that there will be updates. You
>sound as much like a fool pushing your MagiC is the way of the future BS as you
>might think I do quoting a word for word reply that says "No I don't think so".
>Hrmm.. Seems like a No answer to me.
I don't really care what it seems to you... all I can say is that the programmer
hasn't abandoned MagiC, and that's good enough for me. And I don't really give a
damn if future updates are distributed by ASH or not.
Dennis Vermeire
Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 02:10:45 -0400
>>I said that the thought of a bunch of people fucking around with MagiC
>>would make my stomach turn....
>>That is not quite the same thing is it?
>
>Okay. Not sure why it would make your stomach turn. Seems like MagiC
>becoming more stable on all platforms would do everyone good.
MagiC *IS* stable!!
Do you really think that it would be my and others preferred OS by choice
if it hangs up/crashes all the time? When will you finally grasp what me and
a lot of others told you? If it's not stable on your computer, then blame
something else....
>And adding the option of having MiNT extensions would totally rock and make
>MiNT not my system of choice and XaAES not my AES of choice.
If I wanna work with a OS that has MiNT extensions, I'll use MINT. You may
like the idea of MagiC becoming a second MiNT, I don't... they are both
unique in their own way, and should remain like that.
I like MagiC the way it is, I also like the philosophy of the programmer and
I can understand his reasons for not changing MagiC and turning it into a
MiNT clone. If it would ever become GPL then in no time it would loose it's
"spirit" and be "alienated".
>Unfortunately for everyone involved, MagiC is still LOADS faster than
>anything else. Even if you have a CT60 like I do now, it's STILL
>noticeable.
You don't have to convince me!!
Tell it to Jo Even and Adam, they're not convinced at all...
Dennis Vermeire
Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 02:45:41 -0400
>I don't see how my setup can be wrong. I have up-to-date stuff.. Nothing
>strange running, COPS, NVDI 5.01, magxdesk, etc. It's a rather bland
>stock setup. MagiC crashes weirdly for me on all hardware.
No ofcourse you don't see it. You refuse to see it... :-/
BTW: NVDI 5.01 is NOT up-to date stuff. Not that it matters much really...
MagiC crashing certainly isn't because of this. If it would crash on just
one machine then a mechanical problem could be blamed. But since it crashes
on all your machines, the conclusion is simple: you've got an incorrect
setup...
So it's up to you: you either try to get the problem fixed, or keep whining
about it until kingdom comes. If you like to get it fixed, just mail me...
Attach you're magx.inf file, and list *all* the stuff that's inside your
Auto and the MagiC START and XTENSION folders including their size. I'm
convinced that after a little "tuning" your machines will be running for
months on end as well.
>Like I said though, it sucks that this happens. I like MagiC. And it's
>not like I have some warez copy or something. I have several different
>versions of MagiC on original disks and a CD.
The only version you need is the latest one, preferably the full English
6.20, released early this year... It's not essential but it comes with a
couple of bug fixes which were introduced in the German 6.2 patch.
Oh, and coming to think of it, with the English version Oliver Buchman and
ASH had nothing to do. It was a 100% Andreas Kromke project with some input
from DDP translations. Just an example of how much a "I don't think so" is
really worth...
>I don't know what more I could change to make things more stable?
Well, be sensible just for once and mail me :-)
What have you got to loose?
xla...@cix.compulink.co.uk
---SNIP---
>
>SYSTEM ANGEHALTEN
>
> - all the time.
>
>Like I said though, it sucks that this happens. I like MagiC. And it's
>not like I have some warez copy or something. I have several different
>versions of MagiC on original disks and a CD. I don't know what more I
>could change to make things more stable?
Hi Mark!
Perhaps a rogue ACC or CPX, or 'wrong' AUTO folder or START folder
order? I use XBoot, which shows the order of AUTO, ACC and CPX
folders and have various booting set-ups, one of which is a clean
computer with only XBoot itself in use. This allows me to check if
there is any problem with the hardware very quickly. Then I can
add ACCs, CPXs and AUTOs one by one. Unfortunately the MagiC START
apps have to be switched on/off externally :-(
Regards, /Peter/
xla...@cix.compulink.co.uk
>PS: And my stability issues come after many hours of use usually.
That seems to point to hardware problems - overheating somewhere?
Do you have a fan fitted? My Falcon has it over the power supply.
The other possibility might be a memory leak somewhere, leading to
a buffer overrun or similar. I have some programs (?Look'n See? -
can't recall) which when used repeatedly is a session suddenly
report memory shortage, even though there is plenty of memory
left. They either don't clear up properly, or they fragment memory
which is then not released after they are closed, I think. I'm not
a programmer - perhaps someone who is can explain better.
Regards, /Peter/
Pascal Ricard
in article <bhbd87$5u3$1...@thorium.cix.co.uk> (comp.sys.atari.st),
xla...@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote on Tue 12-08-2003 18:56 (GMT):
> order? I use XBoot, which shows the order of AUTO, ACC and CPX
> add ACCs, CPXs and AUTOs one by one. Unfortunately the MagiC START
> apps have to be switched on/off externally :-(
Change for McBoot.
Bye,
/Pascal/
Pascal Ricard
in article <5c1cf651.0308...@posting.google.com> (comp.sys.atari.st),
Mike Freeman wrote on Tue 12-08-2003 11:05 (-0700):
> Standa Opichal <opic...@seznam.cz> wrote in message
> news:<bha3qr$md8$1...@server4.gts.cz>...
> > Yes, documentation is always the problem.
>
> Exactly. Magic's manual should come with at least a list of
> variables/commands that are usable in the MAGX.INF, describe their
> usage in plain English (or German, or French... etc.) and let the user
But... there _is_ a magx.inf file with comments in the /extras folder.
Bye,
/Pascal/
Karsten Lüdersen
>Or the cnf itself, could be made clearer. In Unix where lotsa cnf files
>are to ber editet manualy, they use full names with explanations, something
>like this (excerpt from mint.cnf):
In the german MagiC-Installation there is a file like Your example in
GEMSYS\MAGIC\UTILITY\MAGX.INF. But the explanations in that file are
german.
>maybe some docs with explanations on Web wouldnt be bad, the interested
>ppl can easily add comments into cfg file by themselves for later usage?
If You´re able to read in german You´ll find an explanation e.g. here:
<http://www.mbernstein.de/atari/prog/tos/magic/010108.htm>.
Gruß,
Karsten
Janez Valant
> If You´re able to read in german You´ll find an explanation e.g. here:
> <http://www.mbernstein.de/atari/prog/tos/magic/010108.htm>.
My German is a bit rusty, but still ill note this URL, man never know when
it can become handy, thanx!!
Janez
Steve Sweet
"Mike Freeman" <ma...@freeman-studio.com> wrote in message
news:5c1cf651.03081...@posting.google.com...
> David Bolt <nos...@my-ste.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:<JSEo6gpHYCO$Ew...@my-ste.demon.co.uk>...
>
> > It's a matter of commenting out the #_TSL line, rather than adding a
> > command. E.g. I disabled it on my old system by changing the line:
> >
> > #_TSL 4 32
> >
> > to:
> >
> > ;#_TSL 4 32
>
> Does anyone anywhere have a list of what these 3-letter commands all
> mean in the MAGX.INF file? I've been told by a few people that it is
> better to edit the file using a text editor rather than using one of
> the GUI-based configuration programs (is this correct?).
It would be a very good idea to use a text editor, some of the GUI's are not
aware of some of the newer commands.
>However, I feel really uncomfortable changing things when I have no idea
what
> most of it means.
Most of it is self explanatory.
The font fiddlies and object doohikies are a major black art!.
--
Regards Steve
Rope me a sheep and I'll make it smile.
Mark D
> From: Mark D <mduc...@nossspamXXatari-source.com>
> Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 02:10:45 -0400
>
>>>I said that the thought of a bunch of people fucking around with MagiC
>>>would make my stomach turn....
>>>That is not quite the same thing is it?
>>
>>Okay. Not sure why it would make your stomach turn. Seems like MagiC
>>becoming more stable on all platforms would do everyone good.
>
> MagiC *IS* stable!!
> Do you really think that it would be my and others preferred OS by choice
> if it hangs up/crashes all the time? When will you finally grasp what me and
> a lot of others told you? If it's not stable on your computer, then blame
> something else....
>
Okay.... I'm not alone here. MagiC *can* run for a long time for me
stable, but in practice it does NOT. MiNT on the other hand will very
occaisionally hang up but it's usually when I run a very naughty
application. As a general rule, moving about the system MiNT will NOT
CRASH EVER. MagiC has crashed on me numerous times copying files. If you
copy a drive to another drive, around 1gb of data or so, it screws up big
time.
The kind of applications I run under MagiC/MiNT include aFTP, CAB 2.8,
Highwire, Aniplay 2.21, HD-Driver 8.11, and Magxnet.
But you can't blame any one of these apps because I've tried alternatives
for each.
I can't accept this "configured wrong" argument. I run a network with 80
servers on it on a daily basis. I deal with bugged development
applications all the time. I know about computers and know how to fix
things. I've been over magx.inf many times. I've booted magic up with no
auto prgs, no desk acc, no slb, no anything and it still can crash after a
while. SOMETHING is inherently wrong with MagiC. Even the MagiC PC demo
OUT OF BOX installation CRASHED on me in the same way! I'm not crazy!
It does it on my Mega STe, it does it on my TT, and it does it on my
Falcon, and it is the SINGLE MOST ANNOYING thing I have ever experienced
;-)
The problem with MagiC and MiNT, is that with a conservative auto folder
and desk acc set. Say internet stuff, NVDI and COPS, if the system
crashes there is only one SINGLE item to blame it on. Magx.inf or
mint.cnf. That's it.
But okay. MagiC is supposed to have slightly better memory protection
than MiNT in unprotected mode. I never run MiNT in protected mode. Why?
Because it's stable enough as it is.
Look, I'm quite sure it's nothing I've been doing wrong. I've been
wrestling these problems for several versions of MagiC since I ever
started using it. If it works great for everyone else. That's really
good. But it *does* not work for me and I will not just say it, I'll
spray it because it pisses me off ;-) I feel like it was nothing but a
massive waste of money for me. Sorry.
>>And adding the option of having MiNT extensions would totally rock and make
>>MiNT not my system of choice and XaAES not my AES of choice.
>
> If I wanna work with a OS that has MiNT extensions, I'll use MINT. You may
> like the idea of MagiC becoming a second MiNT, I don't... they are both
> unique in their own way, and should remain like that.
> I like MagiC the way it is, I also like the philosophy of the programmer and
> I can understand his reasons for not changing MagiC and turning it into a
> MiNT clone. If it would ever become GPL then in no time it would loose it's
> "spirit" and be "alienated".
>
Actually from what I understand, MagiC 6.20 has a lot of MiNT
functionality built in. This could be a load but it came from a rather
reputable source.
>>Unfortunately for everyone involved, MagiC is still LOADS faster than
>>anything else. Even if you have a CT60 like I do now, it's STILL
>>noticeable.
>
> You don't have to convince me!!
> Tell it to Jo Even and Adam, they're not convinced at all...
>
MagiC is faster. What do we use atari for? The AES.. The windowing
system. It's the most important part of the machine, and nothing beats
MagiC's AES. Nothing.
>
> Cheers from Belgium
> Dennis
xla...@cix.compulink.co.uk
>Exactly. Magic's manual should come with at least a list of
>variables/commands that are usable in the MAGX.INF, describe their
>usage in plain English (or German, or French... etc.) and let the user
>have a little more info without being so complex and convoluted with
>"programmer-ese" that it's impossible to sort things out for the
>"average" user. Or at least there should be a web site with this info
>available.
Agreed. Actually this info was in the MagiC4 manual, under 'Manual
Configuration in MAGX.INF', but it's not in the MagiC 6.01 version
for some reason. However version 6.20 is accompanied by an example
configuration file for 6.20 by Andreas Kromke, in English, which
explains some of the new items.
Regards, /Peter/
Dennis Vermeire
Date: 12 Aug 2003 11:05:36 -0700
Hi Mike,
>> What about 'time slice'?
>
>That's all fine and good, but how would one know that disabling this
>"Time Slice" variable would turn off pre-emptive multitasking and turn
>on cooperative? They don't exactly make it obvious, is my point.
They don't have to, normally the TSL variable is set from within the MagiC
config CPX. Note that disabling TSL switches MagiC into singletasking mode,
not coorporative multitasking. MagiC knows pre-emptive and single task.
Disable the TSL variable when during boot MagiC hangs or crashes. If however
nothing like this occurs on your system then it's not necessary to disable
it. The first value represents the time slice. The second value represents
the background priority.
The MagiC config program which is included with MagiC 6.20, should be more
then sufficient for 95% of the MagiC users to configure MagiC. If you like
to edit it yourself, the HYP file that comes with the configurator should
enlighten you...
Cheers from Belgium
Dennis
--
____ ____ ____
/ __ \ / __ \ / __ \
/ / / / / / / / / /_/ /
Dennis Vermeire
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 21:36:57 +0200
Hi Janez,
>>Or the cnf itself, could be made clearer. In Unix where lotsa cnf files
>>are to ber editet manualy, they use full names with explanations,
>>something like this (excerpt from mint.cnf):
The magx.inf file *IS* sufficiently documented. All what people need to do
is look in the MAGIC/XTENSION folder at the magx.inf example file and *read*
it. And for the non believers, here's an example.
; Example Configuration file for MagiC 6.20
; =========================================
;
; © Andreas Kromke 1990-2002
; This version of a commented MAGX.INF file is fully functioning.
; It provides full explanation of any settings for manipulation.
;
; For normal application, the configuration performed on installation
; will suffice completely. This file should be of interest to the
; advanced user only. It provides assistance for stepwise understanding
; of these settings (e.g. for evaluation by your own programs) - but,
; what is more, you can make modifications directly, in particular those
; difficult or even impossible to make from within MAGXDESK.
============================================
; First the version number of the OS that saved this file
#_MAG MAG!X V6.20
; Now the sections
; first the section evaluated on booting, i.e.
; before starting the AES
#[boot]
; The number of cookies can be determined,
; but at least 20 cookies will always be installed.
cookies=20
; The log file redirects the BIOS output of the AUTO folder.
; You can also put u:\dev\null here in order to suppress
; the output completely.
log=c:\boot.log
; Before executing the AUTO folder, you can tile the screen...
tiles=C:\GEMSYS\GEMDESK\PAT\16\PAT28.IMG
; ...then draw a logo on the center of the screen...
image=C:\GEMSYS\GEMDESK\PAT\256\MAGIC.IMG
; definition of the BIOS devices
; Without changes in MAGX.INF there are some files in u:\dev
; missing. To compensate for this, additional lines in MAGX.INF
; are necessary. Here some examples, depending on the kind of hardware
; (remove leading semicolon to activate the appropriate ones):
;Atari ST:
;biosdev=3,u:\dev\midi
;biosdev=6,u:\dev\modem1
;Atari Mega-STE:
;biosdev=3,u:\dev\midi
;biosdev=6,u:\dev\modem1
;biosdev=7,u:\dev\modem2
;biosdev=8,u:\dev\serial2
;Atari TT:
;biosdev=3,u:\dev\midi
;biosdev=6,u:\dev\modem1
;biosdev=7,u:\dev\modem2
;biosdev=8,u:\dev\serial1
;biosdev=9,u:\dev\serial2
;Atari Falcon:
;biosdev=3,u:\dev\midi
;biosdev=6,u:\dev\modem1
;biosdev=7,u:\dev\lan
;Mac:
;(none)
;All GEMDOS standard files now can be redirected to arbitrary
;BIOS devices that are accessible via u:\dev
;con=u:\dev\console
;aux=u:\dev\modem
;prn=u:\dev\prn
; Now the section for the VFAT file system
#[vfat]
; This is the option for long file names.
drives=eh
#[aes]
; After the identification for the section [aes]
; the data for the AES.
;
; All lines relevant for the AES start with #_??? and come
; before the lines #[shelbuf] and #_CTR. The entry #_CTR only exists
; for reasons of compatibility.
; Other lines will be treated as comments.
; In general, all lines except for #_CTR and the following ones
; are optional - if they are missing, default values are put in.
; Now the variables for the environment. Since the strings are read
; to the end of line, you must not put any comment behind the #_ENV line.
; This is necessary in order to allow colons or blanks in the string
; for the environment.
; The environment transferred by BIOS will be used and transmitted
; by AES if, and only if, no #_ENV line has been specified.
#_ENV HOME=C:\GEMSYS\HOME\
#_ENV PATH=C:\BIN\;A:\
#_ENV PROMPT=$p$g
#_ENV F1=qed
; You can load arbitrarily many SharedLibraries. They are loaded
; on starting AES and will be released on termination of AES or change
; of resolution.
; Some of them (WINFRAME) change attributes of AES (quasi system
; extension), others (PDLG, EDITOBJC) can be "stocked",
; i.e., if a program calls Slbopen(), the libraries don't have
; to be reloaded again. This is useful if you have suficient memory
; and/or a slow disk medium (reloading of an SLB takes some time).
#_SLB 0 WINFRAME.SLB
#_SLB 0 PDLG.SLB
; The size of the shell buffer must be variable so that any shell
; can store its data there. At least 8192 bytes are always reserved
; anyway, and your number must not exceed 65535. You can get the
; size of the buffer (an unsigned int) by calling shel_get() with 0 bytes
; to read. If the size of the buffer is insufficient, there won't
; be a crash, but the shell won't be able to store all of its data.
#_BUF 16000 ; size of the shell buffer, decimal
; The device number will not be evaluated if the system is being
; restarted for a change of resolution. If, on opening the
; work station, (N)VDI returns an error code (Handle 0), the VDI
; will be restarted with device number 1 (current resolution).
; The usual resolutions of ST/TT are
; 2 = ST low, 3 = ST medium, 4 = ST high
; 6 = TT medium, 8 = TT high, 9 = TT low,
; higher numbers depend on the device drivers (MGE,VGA,...)
; specified in ASSIGN.SYS.
; The Falcon requires an additional number describing the resolution
; (mode code), this is specified after the VDI device number
; (from MagiC 4 on). Usually, the first number for the Falcon,
; the VDI device number, is "5", the resolution is specified by
; the "mode code" only.
; Specification of the "mode code" is mandatory - if no Falcon is used,
; it is "0".
#_DEV 4 0 ; VDI driver, 4 = high resolution
; The dimensions of a resource unit can be defined independently from
; the big AES font, from Magic 5.20 on. In order to guarantee high
; compability with applications, you should, in particular when using
; vector fonts, determine a fixed raster of 8*16.
; Syntax: #_OBS <horiz.Raster> <vertic.Raster> 0 0
;#_OBS 8 16 0 0
; Font ID and font height can be specified separately for the small
; and large AES font, from MagiC 5.20 on. You do have to specify
; whether your font is proportional or monospaced. Proportional
; fonts work from MagiC 6 on.
; Syntax
; for the big font: #_TXB <fontID> <monoFlag> <pixelHeight>
; for the small font: #_TXS <fontID> <monoFlag> <pixelHeight>
;#_TXB 1 1 6
;#_TXS 1 1 4
; With the following setting you can change the format of the INFO
; line in all windows:
; lineh height of line. "0" means standard height.
; fontID font ID for the INFO line. "0" means: the same font
; as for the big AES text
; monoFlag 1 (monospaced) or 0 (proportional)
; fontH font height for vst_height()
;#_INW lineh fontID monoFlag fontH
; Here you can specify parameters influencing the look of MagiC:
;
; Bit 0: The MagiC logo is placed on the left (1) or on
; the right (0) of the menu bar.
; Bit 1: The 3D-effects on using at least 16 colours are switched
; on (0) or off (1).
; Bit 2: The backdrop button is drawn (0) or isn't (1). If there isn't
; a backdrop button, you must click the window title bar in
; order to drop a window on the lowest background level.
; Bit 3: Use the MagiC 4 window title, i.e. with lines (0), or draw
; the traditional fill pattern (1).
; Bit 4: If bit 3 is 0 (and thus the MagiC 4 window titles are
; activated), you can determine whether the window name should
; appear in 3D look (0) or normally (1).
; Bit 5: If this bit is 1, the meaning of the Ctrl key is inverted
; on scrolling the window, i.e., real time scrolling is
; switched off by default.
; Bit 6: Ditto for real time resizing or moving
; Bit 7: (from MagiC 6.00 on): switches on 3D menus. This only works
; with proportional big AES font.
;
; All flags that are not explicitly specified are assumed to be 0.
#_FLG 0 ; Bit 0 = 1: Logo on the left
; With this entry, one can choose colour and fill pattern of
; the background of the default desktop. Specify a number <num>.
; <num> = 120 (== 0x78) yields a light grey. 0x70 is the fill pattern
; (7 = totally filled) and 8 the colour. Thus the code corresponds
; to a value specifying the look of a filled rectangle of the AES
; object G_BOX.
#_BKG 120
; Here one can specify the maximum number of windows. Valid values
; are between 0 and 64, you shouldn't use a value < 16. Missing
; specifications are assumed to be 16.
; Hint: when using MGNOTICE, enter at least 30.
#_WND 32
; Here one controls the distribution of CPU time between foreground
; and background processes. The fist value yields the length of a
; time slice in multiples of 5 ms, the second the background
; priority: "32" means a priority of 1:32 for background processes.
; If any specification is missing, preemptive multitasking is
; deactivated.
; In order to avoid conflicts caused by concurrent memory requests
; by several autostart programs and accessories during the boot
; process with activated background DMA (Atari) or asynchronous
; disk access (Mac), this line should be omitted and preemptive
; multitasking should be activated in the TSLICE.CPX instead.
;#_TSL 1 32
; The Scrap-path ("Clipboard") should always indicate an existing
; directory, else it is undefined.
#_SCP C:\GEMSYS\GEMSCRAP\ ; Scrap directory
; Here one can make specifications regarding the "file selector".
; First comes a flag - which at time is ignored and should
; therefore always be zero - followed by a string of possible file
; types, separated by ";". Double patterns are separated by ","
; ( e.g. "*.PRG,*.APP" or "*.JPG,*.JPEG").
#_FSL 0 *.C;*.H;*.S;*.APP,*.PRG,*.TTP,*.TOS
; The following line contains the program and its complete path
; that performs the redirection of TOS programs in windows.
; When starting the first TOS program, this program will be started
; automatically if it hasn't been loaded.
#_TRM C:\GEMSYS\GEMDESK\VT52.PRG
; This line specifies the path accessories are loaded from.
; If none is found, none is loaded. If this line is omitted, the
; current directory of the boot drive is used, in general this is
; the root directory.
#_ACC C:\GEMSYS\MAGIC\ACCS\ ; path for ACCs
; If there is a #_APP-line, applications can be loaded before
; starting the default shell. These will be available parallelly
; to all other programs immediately. This is an alternative to
; the old accessory concept, since they can be removed from
; the memory again, which those couldn't. Only programs with
; adequate memory requirements are eligible - if you load
; WORDPLUS this way, you won't be able to load any other
; program (if you haven't limited memory allocation by LIMITMEM).
; All programs are started in graphics mode.
#_APP C:\GEMSYS\MAGIC\START ; path for parallelly loaded APPs
; With #_AUT you can start an application automatically as with
; TOS 1.4. The difference to those specified under #_APP is the
; following: the application specified under #_AUT is not started
; in parallel but instead of the desktop or the default shell.
; Only when the application is finished - and has not determined
; any successor by shel_write() - the desktop or the default shell
; is started. (this is useful for a login prg in networks!)
; The application is always started in graphics mode.
;#_AUT C:\LOGIN.PRG
; The default shell is started only after any program specified
; in #_AUT. Without specification, MAGXDESK is started.
; Desktop or default shell are always started in graphics mode.
;#_SHL C:\KAOSDESK\KAOSDESK.PRG ; Shell
; The AES section finishes with the next section, thus, in general, with
#[shelbuf]
; The listing of the MagiC variables finishes with the line
; #_CTR, indicating that the subsequent data will be
; transferred directly into the shell buffer, namely the
; data for the (old) control panel (this means that XCONTROL
; doesn't use them) and the data for the desktop.
; The lines for the desktop start with 128 bytes after #a,
; the first line is #_DSK. (the 128 bytes present an old TOS
; convention).
; It is important that the length of line #d is such that
; the total length of the control panel data is exactly
; 128 bytes. Since some editors remove trailing blanks
; (this can also lead to errors with the environment variables,
; we finish the line with a ";" instead of a blank.
#_CTR ; Start of data for the control panel
#a000000
#b001001
#c7770007000600070055200505552220770557075055507703111302
#d ;
#_DSK MAGXDESK V4.00 1 ; Start of the shell data
=========================================
>P.S: maybe some docs with explanations on Web wouldnt be bad, the
>interested ppl can easily add comments into cfg file by themselves for
>later usage?
As you've seen now for yourself there's no need for this, every possible
command is covered and explained already. And then ofcourse there are still
the MagiC programmer docs, which go through great length explaining every
command in detail. Peter West shed lots of sweat and energy translating the
whole lot, it would be nice knowing that someone somewhere actually reads
them instead of complaining about the lack of documentation...
Cheers from Belgium
Dennis
--
____ ____ ____
/ __ \ / __ \ / __ \
/ / / / / / / / / /_/ /
Janez Valant
> Hi Janez,
>
>>>Or the cnf itself, could be made clearer. In Unix where lotsa cnf files
>>>are to ber editet manualy, they use full names with explanations,
>>>something like this (excerpt from mint.cnf):
>
> The magx.inf file *IS* sufficiently documented. All what people need to do
> is look in the MAGIC/XTENSION folder at the magx.inf example file and
> *read*
Good. Having short description in cnf itself is imho best way, but
separate docs are okay as well.
>>P.S: maybe some docs with explanations on Web wouldnt be bad, the
>>interested ppl can easily add comments into cfg file by themselves for
>>later usage?
>
> As you've seen now for yourself there's no need for this, every possible
> command is covered and explained already. And then ofcourse there are
> still the MagiC programmer docs, which go through great length explaining
> every command in detail. Peter West shed lots of sweat and energy
> translating the whole lot, it would be nice knowing that someone somewhere
> actually reads them instead of complaining about the lack of
> documentation...
And here u go again... I didnt complain, i just propose a solution i find
okay. I also used question mark on end, since it was just a proposal for a
problem. Problem exist, since ppl did ask for explanation.. But it seems, i
proposed Unix/MiNT like solution, or the method u dislike, so u couldnt
resist... So im apologising to even react on question and propose a
solution, how foolish of me.. Dennis forgive me such act.. o master...
What i need to do, not to trigger bad reaction from u.. Shutup and
vanish? I dont mind correction, i didnt know for magix/extension folder,
but u had to revert it into bad thing again... thanx
David Bolt
>David Bolt <nos...@my-ste.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:<JSEo6gpHYCO$Ew...@my-ste.demon.co.uk>...
>
>> It's a matter of commenting out the #_TSL line, rather than adding a
>> command. E.g. I disabled it on my old system by changing the line:
>>
>> #_TSL 4 32
>>
>> to:
>>
>> ;#_TSL 4 32
>
>Does anyone anywhere have a list of what these 3-letter commands all
>mean in the MAGX.INF file?
If you're looking for them, I've a page that has a list of the commands
and a description for them. It's presently at:
<URL:http://www.my-ste.demon.co.uk/info/index.htm>
>I've been told by a few people that it is better to edit the file using
>a text editor rather than using one of the GUI-based configuration
>programs (is this correct?).
I can't say which way is better. I preferred to do the editing within a
text editor.
>However, I feel really uncomfortable changing things when I have no
>idea what most of it means.
Understandable.
>For example, I've heard this advice about turning off pre-emptive
>multitasking a number of times, but usually this advice comes with no
>explaination of how.
I'm guessing that the manuals for v6+ are rather lacking in this sort of
information.
>And TSL doesn't exactly scream out to me that it has anything to do
>with the multitasking mode used, so this wouldn't be the obvious choice
>if I were to guess.
This would be where the joys of experimenting comes in. And making sure
you have a backup :)
>There's also nothing about this in the meager 40-page leaflet that came
>with my English version of Magic 6.01 (passing itself off as a manual).
Looks like I'll be making a copy of my 5.1 manual before I upgrade to v6
:|
> So it would be nice if there was some sort of reference web page
>available (multi-lingual preferred, instead of just German). Is there?
There is a (very) limited one available now. URL is above :)
Mike Freeman
> On Mon, 11 Aug 2003, Mike Freeman wrote:-
> >mean in the MAGX.INF file?
>
> If you're looking for them, I've a page that has a list of the commands
> and a description for them. It's presently at:
>
> <URL:http://www.my-ste.demon.co.uk/info/index.htm>
Excellent! Thank you! Even if it is limited, as you say, it's still
better than what I had before!
Mike Freeman
ma...@freeman-studio.com
Andreas Kromke
> If You´re able to read in german You´ll find an explanation e.g. here:
> <http://www.mbernstein.de/atari/prog/tos/magic/010108.htm>.
This list is not complete, at least the variables introduced with 6.20
are missing. The commented magx.inf that comes with the MagiC program
is the reference.
I remember that there was a (freeware?) program to manipulate the
"magx.inf" file, but I do not know if this one supports the latest
MagiC version.
Derryck Croker
s...@atari.org wrote on 13/8/03 20:58:
>> The magx.inf file *IS* sufficiently documented. All what people need to do
>> is look in the MAGIC/XTENSION folder at the magx.inf example file and
>> *read*
>
> Good. Having short description in cnf itself is imho best way, but
> separate docs are okay as well.
So what's wrong with copying the fully-documented version of magx.inf over
the cut-down one that you have a problem with?
--
Cheers
Derryck
____ ____ ____
/ __ \ / __ \ / __ \
/ / / / / / / / / /_/ /
Derryck Croker
Mark D at mduc...@removenoaspam.atari-source.com wrote on 13/8/03 18:43:
> Okay.... I'm not alone here. MagiC *can* run for a long time for me
> stable, but in practice it does NOT. MiNT on the other hand will very
I guess that you tried the alternative MagiC booter prog?
--
Cheers
Derryck
____ ____ ____
/ __ \ / __ \ / __ \
/ / / / / / / / / /_/ /
Andreas Kromke
> Okay.... I'm not alone here. MagiC *can* run for a long time for me
> stable, but in practice it does NOT. MiNT on the other hand will very
> occaisionally hang up but it's usually when I run a very naughty
> application. As a general rule, moving about the system MiNT will NOT
> CRASH EVER. MagiC has crashed on me numerous times copying files. If you
> copy a drive to another drive, around 1gb of data or so, it screws up big
> time.
Unfortunately I have not been using Atari hardware for several years
now, and so I cannot tell much about the stability of MagiC on "old"
hardware, but with "modern" applications and network. But from my long
year experiences I can tell the following:
1.
MagiC on Atari hardware reacts much more critical with hardware
problems than TOS/MiNT do. No wonder, because Atari computers were
shipped with TOS ROMs, and MiNT usually uses the ROM BIOS. If that
BIOS does not work, the computer is supposed to be dead. MagiC comes
with its own BIOS, and it usually uses asynchrounous DMA transfers.
The first Atari TT I used for development tended to freeze when
MagiC's BIOS accessed the SCSI registers. I wasted a lot of time
finding the problem that turned out to be hardware related. A new TT
(in fact a much, much older one) then worked fine.
2.
The last years of MagiC development on Atari hardware I was using an
old TT. In several years I never had any (!) crash, so in practice
MagiC on Atari was more stable than Win95. But, of course, I had my
set of well behaving applications that were not very hardware related.
The same is partially true for MagiCMac and totally true for
MagicMacX. The MagiC kernel itself is proven to be very stable, at
least with "standard" applications.
3.
Of course MiNT should be much more stable than MagiC, because of its
memory protection. Any wrong behaving program can crash MagiC at any
time. This is a really big disadvantage of MagiC, und therefore only
applications should be used that turned out to be stable.
4.
> The kind of applications I run under MagiC/MiNT include aFTP, CAB 2.8,
> Highwire, Aniplay 2.21, HD-Driver 8.11, and Magxnet.
Here the problem might be. Except Hddriver I have never use any of
these applications. It might be that either one of your applications
has bugs, or MagiC has bugs that only cause problems with "modern"
applications/drivers that make use of features no older applications
ever used. What about the stack size? Unfortunately I cannot remember
if this was settable in "magx.inf". Maybe the stack size has to be
increased to avoid "AES stack overflow" messages.
5.
Regarding the MiNT API: When I created MagiC 5 I tried to support as
many MiNT calls as possible. With versions 6 up to 6.20 more and more
calls were supported. Unfortunately new features were intruduced to
MiNT much quicker than it was possible to rebuild them in MagiC. And
many calls like the TTY things would have been very time consuming to
port, so that I have never supported them. Too much effort for too
little (or no at all) gain, and a single persion cannot compete with a
team of worldwide developers working on an open source project.
6.
Regarding open source: As long as I am maintaining MagicMacX, MagiC
will not going to be open source. Further, it is unlikely to become
open source later, because the source code is nearly 100% assembler
und hardly understandable.
7.
Conclusion:
Ten years ago I now would have asked my beta testers about their
experiences with magxnet and the above mentioned applications. I would
also have installed these drivers/applications and would have created
long tests with various configurations. Unfortunately I now do not
have the hardware, not the time, no beta testers, and nobody would
ever pay me for that work.
So, if problems occur now, the "non-MacOSX"-MagiC users must be either
able to find or at least reproduce the problem for themselves. If a
suitable bug fix can be derived, I then would be glad to create an
update (MagiC 6.20++). But there is not much more I can do, e.g. I
will not install and test magxnet.
If one cannot find the problem, he or she is free to use MiNT instead.
It surely has advantages over MagiC, is free and open source, and
(perhaps?) it is still being maintained.
Mark D
> In article pan.2003.08.13....@removenoaspam.atari-source.com,
> Mark D at mduc...@removenoaspam.atari-source.com wrote on 13/8/03 18:43:
>
>> Okay.... I'm not alone here. MagiC *can* run for a long time for me
>> stable, but in practice it does NOT. MiNT on the other hand will very
>
> I guess that you tried the alternative MagiC booter prog?
Hrmm.. I believe I used magxboot on the mega ste and magxbo32.prg on the
TT and Falcon. I've tried others. On the Falcon now I must use the CT60
magxboot.
Thanks,
Mark
http://atari-source.com
Didier Méquignon
> 6.
>
> Regarding open source: As long as I am maintaining MagicMacX, MagiC
> will not going to be open source. Further, it is unlikely to become
> open source later, because the source code is nearly 100% assembler
> und hardly understandable.
It's not a problem. I know a crasy people who prefer write bigs programs
(binary more than 600KB) in 100% assembler.
Regards,
Didier.
--
Didier MEQUIGNON Aniplayer download: http://aniplay.atari.org
Address: 25,rue de l'Ascenseur 62510 Arques FRANCE
Atari FALCON 030/CT 60 72MHz 270Mb/13Gb ~ iMac 500Mhz 320Mb/20Gb
Janez Valant
> In article tTv_a.1171$2B6.2...@news.siol.net, Janez Valant at
> s...@atari.org wrote on 13/8/03 20:58:
>
>>> The magx.inf file *IS* sufficiently documented. All what people need to
>>> do is look in the MAGIC/XTENSION folder at the magx.inf example file and
>>> *read*
>>
>> Good. Having short description in cnf itself is imho best way, but
>> separate docs are okay as well.
>
> So what's wrong with copying the fully-documented version of magx.inf over
> the cut-down one that you have a problem with?
Um nothing.. I didnt have probs btw.. There was a discussion bout
magx.inf and i only propsed to use documented cnf as main... Or make one
since i wasnt aware of the one in extension folder.. That was plain,
friendly proposal, and i dont see why im blamed now.. Or just because im
MiNTer?
Mike Freeman
> Conclusion:
>
> Ten years ago I now would have asked my beta testers about their
> experiences with magxnet and the above mentioned applications. I would
> also have installed these drivers/applications and would have created
> long tests with various configurations. Unfortunately I now do not
> have the hardware, not the time, no beta testers, and nobody would
> ever pay me for that work.
>
> So, if problems occur now, the "non-MacOSX"-MagiC users must be either
> able to find or at least reproduce the problem for themselves. If a
> suitable bug fix can be derived, I then would be glad to create an
> update (MagiC 6.20++). But there is not much more I can do, e.g. I
> will not install and test magxnet.
>
> If one cannot find the problem, he or she is free to use MiNT instead.
> It surely has advantages over MagiC, is free and open source, and
> (perhaps?) it is still being maintained.
So, does this mean you are not planning on upgrading or further
maintaining the Atari version of Magic? Maybe I'm just
misinterpreting. Anyway, what about the possibility of making a port
of the Magic GUI to Mint? As you say, Mint has its advantages over
Magic, and is very stable. Unfortunately, the GUI's on Mint aren't
nearly as nice as Magic's GUI. I would pay for Magic all over again to
have it be able to run on the Mint kernal! That would be the ultimate
update, as far as I'm concerned!
Mike Freeman
ma...@freeman-studio.com
Mark D
> Um nothing.. I didnt have probs btw.. There was a discussion bout
> magx.inf and i only propsed to use documented cnf as main... Or make one
> since i wasnt aware of the one in extension folder.. That was plain,
> friendly proposal, and i dont see why im blamed now.. Or just because im
> MiNTer?
You're an evil evil MiNTer, swe ;-)
Mark D
> Andreas Kromke <Andreas.Kr...@gmx.de> wrote:
>
>> 6.
>>
>> Regarding open source: As long as I am maintaining MagicMacX, MagiC
>> will not going to be open source. Further, it is unlikely to become
>> open source later, because the source code is nearly 100% assembler
>> und hardly understandable.
>
> It's not a problem. I know a crasy people who prefer write bigs programs
> (binary more than 600KB) in 100% assembler.
>
> Regards,
>
> Didier.
Isn't that you? ;-) I thought aniplayer was nearly all assembler. And
aniplayer is no small prog!
Mark D
> Mark D <mduc...@removenoaspam.atari-source.com> wrote in message news:<pan.2003.08.13....@removenoaspam.atari-source.com>...
>
>> Okay.... I'm not alone here. MagiC *can* run for a long time for me
>> stable, but in practice it does NOT. MiNT on the other hand will very
>> occaisionally hang up but it's usually when I run a very naughty
>> application. As a general rule, moving about the system MiNT will NOT
>> CRASH EVER. MagiC has crashed on me numerous times copying files. If you
>> copy a drive to another drive, around 1gb of data or so, it screws up big
>> time.
>
> Unfortunately I have not been using Atari hardware for several years
> now, and so I cannot tell much about the stability of MagiC on "old"
> hardware, but with "modern" applications and network. But from my long
> year experiences I can tell the following:
>
> 1.
>
> MagiC on Atari hardware reacts much more critical with hardware
> problems than TOS/MiNT do. No wonder, because Atari computers were
> shipped with TOS ROMs, and MiNT usually uses the ROM BIOS. If that
> BIOS does not work, the computer is supposed to be dead. MagiC comes
> with its own BIOS, and it usually uses asynchrounous DMA transfers.
> The first Atari TT I used for development tended to freeze when
> MagiC's BIOS accessed the SCSI registers. I wasted a lot of time
> finding the problem that turned out to be hardware related. A new TT
> (in fact a much, much older one) then worked fine.
>
I accept this as the culprit for some of my problems, but I have tried on
2 TT030's, 1 Falcon, MagiCPC demo, 3 Mega STe's and 2 1040STf's. In some
situations MagiC runs generally fine. In case of my primary Mega STe,
both TT's, and Falcon, MagiC will crash hard occaisionally. Even when
just working under Magxdesk. MagiC not using TOS is part of what makes it
so fast, especially in the disk IO department.
> 2.
>
> The last years of MagiC development on Atari hardware I was using an
> old TT. In several years I never had any (!) crash, so in practice
> MagiC on Atari was more stable than Win95. But, of course, I had my
> set of well behaving applications that were not very hardware related.
> The same is partially true for MagiCMac and totally true for
> MagicMacX. The MagiC kernel itself is proven to be very stable, at
> least with "standard" applications.
>
Yes, I tend to believe it's AES or disk IO related problems that I have.
I believe that's where the fault is introduced. I notice a large number
of crashes for me are on application startups. Even aniplayer has crashed
for me a couple times on some machines. Aniplayer is well written ;-)
In previous times I used to have major filesystem corruption problems.
Those problems are long gone these days for some reason or another.
> 3.
>
> Of course MiNT should be much more stable than MagiC, because of its
> memory protection. Any wrong behaving program can crash MagiC at any
> time. This is a really big disadvantage of MagiC, und therefore only
> applications should be used that turned out to be stable.
>
Ah but I thought MagiC had a form of memory protection that protects the
kernel at least. Yet nearly every time I have an applications crash it
ends up taking the entire system along with it. I run MiNT in unprotected
mode. Perhaps I was wrong on this point.
> 4.
>
>> The kind of applications I run under MagiC/MiNT include aFTP, CAB 2.8,
>> Highwire, Aniplay 2.21, HD-Driver 8.11, and Magxnet.
>
> Here the problem might be. Except Hddriver I have never use any of
> these applications. It might be that either one of your applications
> has bugs, or MagiC has bugs that only cause problems with "modern"
> applications/drivers that make use of features no older applications
> ever used. What about the stack size? Unfortunately I cannot remember
> if this was settable in "magx.inf". Maybe the stack size has to be
> increased to avoid "AES stack overflow" messages.
>
The problem may also be that I tend to use the computer differently then
most people. MagiC seems to work quite well if you do things slowly, or
in serial order. I tend to open up 5 applications and move in and out
between them with stuff going on in the background. Even on a 4 meg STe.
It's just how I am ;-) I don't think I ever receive AES stack overflow
messages, mainly just "SYSTEM HALTED" in german. Or maybe it's gemsys
error. Can't remember for sure but I can start using MagiC for a bit
again to see. On my Falcon, when the system halted shows there always
seem to be a few bytes of screen memory displaying to the upper left hand
portion of the screen that get destroyed.
> 5.
>
> Regarding the MiNT API: When I created MagiC 5 I tried to support as
> many MiNT calls as possible. With versions 6 up to 6.20 more and more
> calls were supported. Unfortunately new features were intruduced to
> MiNT much quicker than it was possible to rebuild them in MagiC. And
> many calls like the TTY things would have been very time consuming to
> port, so that I have never supported them. Too much effort for too
> little (or no at all) gain, and a single persion cannot compete with a
> team of worldwide developers working on an open source project.
>
This was the impression that I was under, so I wasn't wrong on that. And
you can be as humble as you like, but you have competed with MiNT for a
long time. Even after MagiC development stops and may or may not be
considered for all intents and purposes abandoned, people are still very
animate about use and support of MagiC. It's a great system, with great
ideals. You are a fantastic programmer.
> 6.
>
> Regarding open source: As long as I am maintaining MagicMacX, MagiC
> will not going to be open source. Further, it is unlikely to become
> open source later, because the source code is nearly 100% assembler
> und hardly understandable.
>
I've been meaning to look into MagiCMacX but for me, Macs are just too
expensive to justify. My girlfriend has a powerbook g4 I could try the
demo on if one exists ;-)
> 7.
>
> Conclusion:
>
> Ten years ago I now would have asked my beta testers about their
> experiences with magxnet and the above mentioned applications. I would
> also have installed these drivers/applications and would have created
> long tests with various configurations. Unfortunately I now do not
> have the hardware, not the time, no beta testers, and nobody would
> ever pay me for that work.
>
I couldn't pay you much but I could pay. I think a lot of people around
here would pay into a pool that pays you for your time. Set an hourly
rate and whomever would like to see you spend some time working on his
problem can pay money in and you'll work with him for that time. Sounds
like a good plan for me. I can also send you a TT030 I might end up not
using. But you should get a Falcon with CT60. They're REALLY neat.
As for the time, I think everyone is right there with you. I don't have
much time for Atari stuff anymore either :-/ Everyone has to focus on the
work that pays the bills, that's how life is.
> So, if problems occur now, the "non-MacOSX"-MagiC users must be either
> able to find or at least reproduce the problem for themselves. If a
> suitable bug fix can be derived, I then would be glad to create an
> update (MagiC 6.20++). But there is not much more I can do, e.g. I
> will not install and test magxnet.
>
My problem is that the problem is so intermittent and random I would never
ever be able to reproduce it. As I said previously, for me it just seems
like an "inherent problem in MagiC". Perhaps it's not and there's a
specific app but I don't know. Sometimes I even have probs with MagiC
crashing on bootup. Only turning the machine off for a bit seems to calm
it down. Maybe memory stuff is not quite right. I'm going to very
closely install a plain MagiC 6.10 installation and update it to MagiC
6.20 english according to DDP instructions and see what results. Maybe
things will be better.
> If one cannot find the problem, he or she is free to use MiNT instead.
> It surely has advantages over MagiC, is free and open source, and
> (perhaps?) it is still being maintained.
Advantages for newer better systems, but surely a vast portion of current
atari users are still using ST/e's. MagiC is the only good choice for
them.
To close, I must compliment you on the amazing work you've done for the
Atari world with MagiC. It seriously is an honor to write this to you. I
may bitch up a storm but I only get upset about things I like/care about.
In fact if I ever try to show off an Atari system to friends I will always
use MagiC, because it looks better, feels faster, and has a fantastic AES.
But think about the development fund thing. I think there's a lot of
people here that would be willing to contribute a LOT of money to the
ideals of writing an AES using MagiC's AES code for MiNT. I myself could
justify at least $500USD, as long as the end product is free to distribute
even if not open source. I know at very least I could do $100USD right
away.
Thanks,
Mark
http://atari-source.com
Steve Sweet
> >Like I said though, it sucks that this happens. I like MagiC. And it's
> >not like I have some warez copy or something. I have several different
> >versions of MagiC on original disks and a CD. I don't know what more I
> >could change to make things more stable?
>
> Hi Mark!
>
> Perhaps a rogue ACC or CPX, or 'wrong' AUTO folder or START folder
> order? I use XBoot, which shows the order of AUTO, ACC and CPX
> folders and have various booting set-ups, one of which is a clean
> computer with only XBoot itself in use. This allows me to check if
> there is any problem with the hardware very quickly. Then I can
> add ACCs, CPXs and AUTOs one by one. Unfortunately the MagiC START
> apps have to be switched on/off externally :-(
XBoot can also be configured to accommodate this via its batch function,
simply do a rename from something.prg to something.prx.
Dennis Vermeire
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:58:15 +0200
Hi Janez,
>And here u go again... I didnt complain, i just propose a solution i find
>okay. I also used question mark on end, since it was just a proposal for a
>problem. Problem exist, since ppl did ask for explanation.. But it seems, i
>proposed Unix/MiNT like solution, or the method u dislike, so u couldnt
>resist... So im apologising to even react on question and propose a
>solution, how foolish of me.. Dennis forgive me such act.. o master..
For god sake man!!! Why on earth are you so touchy?
Whenever and whatever I write in here, there's one certainty... you'll feel
targetted and come moaning about it. Shit... it is like walking on bloody
eggshells all the time!
Whatever I post in whatever thread in this group, there's always someone who
feels offended by it. I think it's about time that I start posting anonymously
also, I get the impression that reading my name is enough to set you and some
other people here in alarm fase 2...
>What i need to do, not to trigger bad reaction from u.. Shutup and
>vanish? I dont mind correction, i didnt know for magix/extension folder,
>but u had to revert it into bad thing again... thanx
I honestly don't know Janez !!!!!
All I did was to point out that the commands are already fully explained and
that they happen to be in plain English just like the other MagiC docs. And
now all of a sudden this is "triggering a bad reaction"...
I could have replied to several posts in this thread, I choose to reply to
yours, because it actually was one of the few that made sense... but I should
have known of course that this was a "bad" move.
Don't worry, you won't get any corrections from me no more, so you don't have
to shutup at all and certainly not vanish from here. Unlike you I happen to
appreciate your contributions, and unlike you I don't seek things in your
posts that aren't there either.
Dennis Vermeire
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:38:50 +0100
Hi Derryck,
>So what's wrong with copying the fully-documented version of magx.inf over
>the cut-down one that you have a problem with?
Actually, there is a problem doing this for a number of users. People using
magxdesk as desktop can't use this proposed method, because the file will be
overwritten when they save their desktop. The magx.inf file has two purposes,
it's a config file for MagiC but also for magxdesk.prg.
Please don't feel targetted, offended, made a fool or blamed for. I honestly
didn't mean to .... :-/
Cheers from Belgium
Dennis
--
____ ____ ____
/ __ \ / __ \ / __ \
/ / / / / / / / / /_/ /
Dennis Vermeire
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 13:43:15 -0400
Hi Mark,
>I can't accept this "configured wrong" argument. I run a network with 80
>servers on it on a daily basis. I deal with bugged development
>applications all the time. I know about computers and know how to fix
>things. I've been over magx.inf many times. I've booted magic up with no
>auto prgs, no desk acc, no slb, no anything and it still can crash after a
>while. SOMETHING is inherently wrong with MagiC. Even the MagiC PC demo
>OUT OF BOX installation CRASHED on me in the same way! I'm not crazy!
>It does it on my Mega STe, it does it on my TT, and it does it on my
>Falcon, and it is the SINGLE MOST ANNOYING thing I have ever experienced
>;-)
Look no one is suggesting that you're dumb, but we're all humans and tend to
make mistakes from time to time. In my experience catching such a mistake by
yourself can take forever... while someone else could see it almost on the
spot. I'm not saying that your magx.inf file or the contents of your XTENSION
folder are no good, I'm just saying that there "might" be something wrong...
>Look, I'm quite sure it's nothing I've been doing wrong. I've been
>wrestling these problems for several versions of MagiC since I ever
>started using it. If it works great for everyone else. That's really
>good. But it *does* not work for me and I will not just say it, I'll
>spray it because it pisses me off ;-) I feel like it was nothing but a
>massive waste of money for me. Sorry.
About a year ago I suggested to you that there might be something wrong with
your TT, and IIRC gave you the example of my first TT, which I eventually
trashed. Yesterday, Andreas Kromke suggested more or less the same thing...
I've once known a falcon owner who couldn't get a stable MagiC setup, I've
turned his machine inside out and finally had to give in. There was no way I
could install a stable MagiC on that Falcon, from time to time I read the same
thing here... so one can only conclude that Atari must have made a batch of
Falcons which have slightly different specs then the mainstream Falcons. If
you happen to own such a Falcon (or TT), then that's bad luck...
>The kind of applications I run under MagiC/MiNT include aFTP, CAB 2.8,
>Highwire, Aniplay 2.21, HD-Driver 8.11, and Magxnet.
>
>But you can't blame any one of these apps because I've tried alternatives
>for each.
Never say never Mark...
I happen to be looking into someones magx.inf file right at this moment, that
guy just like you also uses Magxnet... and he has stability problems as well.
I'm not blaming Magxnet, it's the way he setup his magx.inf file that sucks...
Using his file instead of my own, causes my MagiC to behave strange also. You
have no idea how many "weird" MagiC setups I've seen over the years. I don't
laugh of turn these people into morons....
Sometimes apps that are being installed edit/change the file, other times one
experiments a little adding or deleting things and forget to remove/put them
back in later on.
>Actually from what I understand, MagiC 6.20 has a lot of MiNT
>functionality built in. This could be a load but it came from a rather
>reputable source.
Every MagiC has a lot of MiNT functionality build in. That's what I've always
been shouting here, but no one wants to know. One only has to read the MagiC
programmers docs to realise that the programmer sometimes went through great
lenghts to make MagiC more or less compatible with yet again a new MINT
command. If he wouldn't have done so, we would have two really incompatible
systems now. It's just sad that making the OS more compatible always came from
one side only, if the MiNT developers would have only implemented some of the
Magic features instead of reinventing the wheel then the two OS's would be
even more compatible...
>> You don't have to convince me!!
>> Tell it to Jo Even and Adam, they're not convinced at all...
>>
>MagiC is faster. What do we use atari for? The AES.. The windowing
>system. It's the most important part of the machine, and nothing beats
>MagiC's AES. Nothing.
Yep.... but like I said, you don't need to tell me.
I know it since 1987, that's when I bought my first KAOS TOS, and ever since I
never looked back :-)
George Nakos
wrote:
> Andreas Kromke <Andreas.Kr...@gmx.de> wrote:
>
>> 6.
>>
>> Regarding open source: As long as I am maintaining MagicMacX, MagiC
>> will not going to be open source. Further, it is unlikely to become
>> open source later, because the source code is nearly 100% assembler
>> und hardly understandable.
>
> It's not a problem. I know a crasy people who prefer write bigs programs
> (binary more than 600KB) in 100% assembler.
>
I'll second that. When something isn't working of pisses me off, I
disassemble it
to find the problem. 68000 asm is far more clear to me than C.
> Regards,
>
> Didier.
>
--
George Nakos AKA ggn/KUA software productions - Atari or buST!
________________________________________________________________________________
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neckties and carefully line up pencils on otherwise clear desks.
To send mail, remove the ROCKS from the address shown.
That's g g n a t a t a r i d o t o r g
Standa Opichal
What about trying the ARAnyM instead of the old HW? Atari MagiC runs
quite well on that (although I didn't try for quite a long time now).
> long tests with various configurations. Unfortunately I now do not
> have the hardware, not the time, no beta testers, and nobody would
> ever pay me for that work.
>
> So, if problems occur now, the "non-MacOSX"-MagiC users must be either
> able to find or at least reproduce the problem for themselves. If a
> suitable bug fix can be derived, I then would be glad to create an
> update (MagiC 6.20++). But there is not much more I can do, e.g. I
> will not install and test magxnet.
This is a good news. I can provide you a disk image of running MagiC if
you can provide some sort of special licence for ARAnyM developers to
let us debug problems.
best regards
STan
Janez Valant
Dennis,
> Whatever I post in whatever thread in this group, there's always someone
> who feels offended by it. I think it's about time that I start posting
> anonymously also, I get the impression that reading my name is enough to
> set you and some other people here in alarm fase 2...
Well i think we would guess from contents, who the sender was ;)
> I honestly don't know Janez !!!!!
> All I did was to point out that the commands are already fully explained
> and that they happen to be in plain English just like the other MagiC
> docs. And now all of a sudden this is "triggering a bad reaction"...
>
> I could have replied to several posts in this thread, I choose to reply to
> yours, because it actually was one of the few that made sense... but I
> should have known of course that this was a "bad" move.
No it wasnt a bad move on contrary. But look from my perspective: u didnt
correct us, and prompt us to EXTENSION folder etc, but u also spiced with
your usual spice:
"...it would be nice knowing that someone somewhere actually reads
them instead of complaining about the lack of documentation..."
U also used some bold text earky in message... This is the part i dont like
and im touchy about... Replies and sugestion CAN be made more polite...
From your message we all looked like some complainers which refuse to read
docs and then hag bout lack ofthem.... Hard to ignore docs if u arent aware
of them....
Im preety sure, u would react the same, if u would have MiNT (or other,
not realy matter) guess and i would reply, that u need to read docs, before
u moan... (and u would prolly extend it to "you all") TBH, i do read docs a
lot, kinda need to do in Unix, but i realy wouldnt expect Magic docs in
EXTENSION folder... It is my fault, but u can prompt me normaly....
> Don't worry, you won't get any corrections from me no more, so you don't
> have to shutup at all and certainly not vanish from here. Unlike you I
> happen to appreciate your contributions, and unlike you I don't seek
> things in your posts that aren't there either.
Well as u wish.. I repeat that i dont mind to be corrected or guided, i
actualy apreciate help. And if u would just bite the tongue (fingers
actualy :) before adding "final touch" i bet we could get along much
better....
>
> Cheers from Belgium
> Dennis
Derryck Croker
s...@atari.org wrote on 14/8/03 17:33:
>> So what's wrong with copying the fully-documented version of magx.inf over
>> the cut-down one that you have a problem with?
>
> Um nothing.. I didnt have probs btw.. There was a discussion bout
> magx.inf and i only propsed to use documented cnf as main... Or make one
The cut-down one is only meant to be a starter, it's up to the user to add
from the full version once he or she is happy that it is basically working
FWIW. IAC Dennis has pointed out a potential problem with this approach.
> since i wasnt aware of the one in extension folder.. That was plain,
> friendly proposal, and i dont see why im blamed now.. Or just because im
> MiNTer?
Not at all Janez, I don't have any problem at all with anyone who wants to
use MiNT.
Derryck Croker
dennis....@gmx.net wrote on 15/8/03 03:05:
>> So what's wrong with copying the fully-documented version of magx.inf over
>> the cut-down one that you have a problem with?
>
> Actually, there is a problem doing this for a number of users. People using
> magxdesk as desktop can't use this proposed method, because the file will be
> overwritten when they save their desktop. The magx.inf file has two purposes,
> it's a config file for MagiC but also for magxdesk.prg.
I had no idea actually, I'd never felt the need to do that and in any case I
use jinnee!
> Please don't feel targetted, offended, made a fool or blamed for. I honestly
> didn't mean to .... :-/
I've learnt something :-)
--
Cheers
Derryck
____ ____ ____
/ __ \ / __ \ / __ \
/ / / / / / / / / /_/ /
Andreas Kromke
(...)
> misinterpreting. Anyway, what about the possibility of making a port
> of the Magic GUI to Mint? As you say, Mint has its advantages over
> Magic, and is very stable. Unfortunately, the GUI's on Mint aren't
> nearly as nice as Magic's GUI. I would pay for Magic all over again to
Unfortunately in MagiC AES and GEMDOS are not cleanly separated. E.g.
contrary to MiNT, the basic scheduler/task/thread modules (today one
could call it the nanokernel) are part of AES, not GEMDOS. So MagiC's
AES cannot be used as replacement for MiNT's one. The same with vice
versa. If I did total rewrite of MagiC today, I would do it much
better and use a layered design.
Steve Sweet
> >So what's wrong with copying the fully-documented version of magx.inf
over
> >the cut-down one that you have a problem with?
>
> Actually, there is a problem doing this for a number of users. People
using
> magxdesk as desktop can't use this proposed method, because the file will
be
> overwritten when they save their desktop. The magx.inf file has two
purposes,
> it's a config file for MagiC but also for magxdesk.prg.
If he were to copy this new file over and then do a load inf then that would
be the one in memory and hence saved when required.
> Please don't feel targetted, offended, made a fool or blamed for. I
honestly
> didn't mean to .... :-/
Kick him while he's down!!. 9~)
Henk Robbers
Thank you Andreas for your dignified and clear explanations.
I actually recommend MagiC to people with a plain 68000 (when they ask
about MiNT ;-)
.
MagiC's amazing speed remains unparallelled.
Without MagiC, multitasking on a 68000 would be practically impossible.
--
Groeten; Regards.
Henk Robbers. mailto:h.ro...@chello.nl
http://members.ams.chello.nl/h.robbers/Home.html
Interactive disassembler: TT-Digger; http://digger.atari.org
A Home Cooked teXt editor: AHCX
The free desktop: TERADESK
Dennis Vermeire
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 11:28:45 +0200
Hi Janez,
>No it wasnt a bad move on contrary. But look from my perspective: u
>didnt correct us, and prompt us to EXTENSION folder etc, but u also
>spiced with your usual spice:
>
>"...it would be nice knowing that someone somewhere actually reads
>them instead of complaining about the lack of documentation..."
Look, someone had a problem, and the solution was handed on a plate. Then
all of a sudden the thread evolves in a "let's blame MagiC for it's poor
documentation". The MagiC docs are far from perfect, but I know a lot of
docs which are much worser...
1. The #_TSL variable is explained in the manual
2. it's explained in the "large" magx.inf file
3. it's explained in the MagiC Config HYP file
I can only conclude that the people complaining never read any of the
three, if they would have, then we wouldn't be discussing this...
>From your message we all looked like some complainers which refuse to
>read docs and then hag bout lack ofthem.... Hard to ignore docs if u
>arent aware of them....
I can understand you skip one doc, but all three? Also I only posted
after other people here pointed out that #_TSL was documented and where
it was located. Since nobody took notice, I posted the damn thing...
>Im preety sure, u would react the same, if u would have MiNT (or other,
>not realy matter) guess and i would reply, that u need to read docs,
>before u moan... (and u would prolly extend it to "you all") TBH, i do
>read docs a lot, kinda need to do in Unix, but i realy wouldnt expect
>Magic docs in EXTENSION folder... It is my fault, but u can prompt me
>normaly....
I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't react this way... I'm not mister know it
all, just like everyone here I come across a problem from time to time
as well. Untill today however I haven't encountered one that couldn't be
solved by reading the docs and in the event that the docs lack the
necessary information I apply some logical thinking, and sometimes just
plain luck or coincidence solved the problems also... I do get pissed
off however when people refer me to reading docs, and the relevant info
isn't there.
BTW: I goofed... the magx.inf file isn't located in the XTENSION folder,
but in the UTILS folder, If you never looked inside that folder, now is
the time.... there's some more helpfull stuff in that folder.
>Well as u wish.. I repeat that i dont mind to be corrected or guided, i
>actualy apreciate help. And if u would just bite the tongue (fingers
>actualy :) before adding "final touch" i bet we could get along much
>better....
I wasn't aware that we don't get along very well... I'm convinced if we
would ever meet each other, we would jump into the first pub on our way,
and discuss Atari related stuff until the landlord throws us out, and we
would say bye bye as the very best friends. As for biting in parts of my
body before adding the final touch.... sorry, can't do that. We've all
got our own style, after all these years people know that I'm upfront, I
like to call a horse a horse... changing my style, would make it fake.
Janez Valant
> I can understand ***you**** skip one doc, but all three? Also I only
> posted after other people here pointed out that #_TSL was documented and
> where it was located. Since nobody took notice, I posted the damn thing...
Again, I didnt skip ANYTHIG.. I didnt seek docs. I only send a general
message of possible solution i prefer most: if there is .cnf to edit, its
nice that it has short description in it.. And i make error, i mentioned
that this is common solution in Unices.. without that, u could maybe even
agree... Now from your message to Derrick i realised that thats not
possible with Magic, since it would be overwriten.. But hardly that i
blamed Magic for anything... And if u realy meant message for all, why u
start it with "Hi Janez"?
> I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't react this way... I'm not mister know it
> all, just like everyone here I come across a problem from time to time
> as well. Untill today however I haven't encountered one that couldn't be
> solved by reading the docs and in the event that the docs lack the
> necessary information I apply some logical thinking, and sometimes just
> plain luck or coincidence solved the problems also... I do get pissed
> off however when people refer me to reading docs, and the relevant info
> isn't there.
But u see, u are.. U know all, u know so much that u can decide who i
dreamer, who is lame coder, who is half capable moron, who is to call
names...
> I wasn't aware that we don't get along very well... I'm convinced if we
> would ever meet each other, we would jump into the first pub on our way,
> and discuss Atari related stuff until the landlord throws us out, and we
> would say bye bye as the very best friends.
Thats your view.. I assure u, i wouldnt... U bashed me and some ppl i find
very usefull to scene too much, that i would go and drink with u... Person
can be blunt to me, can set things on right place, correct me.. but not
bash and call names.. All only on basis that i use other OS. So far u didnt
agree with ONE argument i told so tell me what we could talk in pub then...
I dont know how things are in Belgium, in Slovenia we are a lot more
polite. Being blunt can be done diferently as u do....
> body before adding the final touch.... sorry, can't do that. We've all
> got our own style, after all these years people know that I'm upfront, I
> like to call a horse a horse... changing my style, would make it fake.
No u dont call horse a horse... If u think u are honest and non biased,
then u live in mistake... In message to Peter, u again generalise all to
MiNT corner and "spewing bulshits".. Same u do when bashing developers, u
dont distinguish betwen MiNT OS developers, who work hard on MiNT, to
preserve all Atari flavours, or AES developers do the same or APP
developers who also do exactly the same.. For u ALL developers associated
to MiNT are just lame, braindead porters.. Developing MiNT kernel or AES is
not porting, its true developing. MiNT kernel is not just ported like Linux
one, its done from scratch, with bios/xbios etc, genuine Atari development.
Name me one reason why MiNT dont use linux kerenel, if its so alienated as u
wana ppl to believe? Or why MiNT braindead porters develop Airc, Amail etc
when we can use alienated pine etc? Or why there is NAES, or why XAAES is
developed (not ported) it MiNT dev team goal was to alienate the platform?
But in MiNT corner, "spewing alien bulshit" is Lonny, with his Airc which
is true atari app, using va_start, drag n drop etc protocols, stik stack,
AES developers, hard to imagine they alienate or port stuff, Frederic who
also did some usefull tools, geniune Atari apps, altough mainly oriented to
setup MiNT or shells for shell commands, MiNT kernel guys, which does great
job with kernel, which is NOT porting like some Linux kernel, but unique
Atari only code, and many other, inlcuding me. And, please, dont give me
"its no use to me" argument, since that dont make those apps any less Atari
apps....
So u call only your own horse a horse, others horses, maybe just diferent
colors u call donkey, and their owners even harder words...
I can understand that u dislike ports, i dont like them too much as as well
They are necessary evil to get some tasks done... But why u must
generalizing that tho whole scene, calling developers names, and so on? I
didnt hear that anyone would force u or anyone else from magic to MiNT or
anything else. U still go berserk when see MiNT written in a message that
dont call ppl names and declare MiNT a shit.. And on other side, u saw
message which u intepreted as threat to magic (this thread) and u went
up....
Janez
Dennis Vermeire
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 17:15:15 +0200
>In message to Peter, u again generalise all to MiNT corner and "spewing
>bulshits".. Same u do when bashing developers, u dont distinguish betwen
>MiNT OS developers, who work hard on MiNT, to preserve all Atari
>flavours, or AES developers do the same or APP developers who also do
>exactly the same.. For u ALL developers associated to MiNT are just lame,
>braindead porters.. Developing MiNT kernel or AES is not porting, its
>true developing. MiNT kernel is not just ported like Linux one, its done
>from scratch, with bios/xbios etc, genuine Atari development.
There's your usual blablabla again....
First of all I replied to a post which advocates apps that run on the
three major used OS's on this platform. So don't coming singing the song
about MiNT or AES developers, they have nothing do to with this and aren't
targetted either.
>And if u realy meant message for all, why u start it with "Hi Janez"?
That's merely being polite... I've responded to your post, so I address
you, if it's personal then I'll mail you.
>Name me one reason why MiNT dont use linux kerenel, if its so alienated
>as u wana ppl to believe?
Because (luckily) our hardware lacks the necessary power ?
>Or why MiNT braindead porters develop Airc, Amail etc when we can use
>alienated pine etc?
Because even the greatest MiNT die hard realised that Pine is ported crap,
and nothing beats a platform specific app?
>Or why there is NAES,
Because the developers recognised a market for it...
> or why XAAES is
>developed (not ported) it MiNT dev team goal was to alienate the platform?
They're all having wet dreams about implementing X shit, but (luckily) the
hardware lacks the necessary power... :-)
>Or why MiNT braindead porters develop Airc, Amail etc when we can use
>alienated pine etc? Or why there is NAES, or why XAAES is developed (not
>ported) it MiNT dev team goal was to alienate the platform?
>But in MiNT corner, "spewing alien bulshit" is Lonny, with his Airc which
>is true atari app, using va_start, drag n drop etc protocols, stik stack,
>AES developers, hard to imagine they alienate or port stuff, Frederic who
>also did some usefull tools, geniune Atari apps, altough mainly oriented
>to setup MiNT or shells for shell commands
You know very well that I don't have anything against these apps, but if
it suits you, you'll use it as an argument against me, time and time
again. The "alien bullshit" is the ported stuff, who's recently been
cheered
here as the next best thing to come. That crap stands as far from my bed
as a PC program. And since almost everything is one OS-specfic all it does
is split the platform even more, you can argue until you drop dead, it's
useless.... I'll never change my mind or views on this.
>So u call only your own horse a horse, others horses, maybe just diferent
>colors u call donkey, and their owners even harder words...
Thanks for the free analysing however these are your views...
>I can understand that u dislike ports, i dont like them too much as as
>well They are necessary evil to get some tasks done... But why u must
>generalizing that tho whole scene, calling developers names, and so on? I
>didnt hear that anyone would force u or anyone else from magic to MiNT or
>anything else.
You interprete it that way, if Lonny for example tells me to stay and play
further with my kiddie OS, I know very well he's not generalizing, but you
on the other hand would automatically come to the conclusion that he means
that *all* MagiC users are kids playing with a kid OS.... that's the main
difference between us, so start reading what really is written, instead of
looking for things between the lines...
>U still go berserk when see MiNT written in a message that dont call ppl
>names and declare MiNT a shit.. And on other side, u saw message which u
>intepreted as threat to magic (this thread) and u went up....
See Janez, that's an example of what I just wrote.... you read things into
my posts that I've never written : I never declared MiNT shit, but I did
and do declare almost all the MiNT-specific things crap, shit, lousy
etc... almost all the Mint-specific stuff is ported and it shows, MiNT
isn't responsible for this, it's just an OS. And it's a pity really, it
deserves much better.
>> I wasn't aware that we don't get along very well... I'm convinced if we
>> would ever meet each other, we would jump into the first pub on our way,
>> and discuss Atari related stuff until the landlord throws us out, and we
>> would say bye bye as the very best friends.
>
>Thats your view.. I assure u, i wouldnt... U bashed me and some ppl i find
>very usefull to scene too much, that i would go and drink with u... Person
>can be blunt to me, can set things on right place, correct me.. but not
>bash and call names..
Where did I mention "drinking"? :-/
But OK... if we ever would meet, let's have a wrestling match, I will wear
a T-shirt with MagiC logo and you can wear your favourite Open Source for
all logo T-shirt. Although beating an "old man" up isn't very fair....
And BTW: I'm pretty sure that I've *NEVER* bashed you personally, once
again you're generalising the issue. Have you any idea how many times I've
been bashed and people I find usefull when I would apply the same standards
as you? So it's OK to write that all MagiC users are morons but not vice
versa?
>I dont know how things are in Belgium, in Slovenia we are a lot more
>polite. Being blunt can be done diferently as u do....
Let's not bring politics into this....
>U still go berserk when see MiNT written in a message that dont call ppl
>names and declare MiNT a shit.. And on other side, u saw message which u
>intepreted as threat to magic (this thread) and u went up....
MagiC isn't in danger at all, there's absolutely no need to come forward
and defend it, an OS is as good as the applications running on it... The
way things are going, we're not going forewards at all, the gap between
our platform and others gets wider weekly, not because of the OS, but
because the lack of apps, and since it's quite clear now after all these
weeks of discussing, that we shouldn't expect a lot coming from the MiNT
corner in that respect, MagiC is very safe....
Frederic Fouche
> Because even the greatest MiNT die hard realised that Pine is ported crap,
> and nothing beats a platform specific app?
Pine a ported crap?
What emailer on atari (not ported) supports IMAP? (yes I use that)
Please do some research before you claim something to be crap.
PINE is awesome because of IMAP, speed, low reqs (specially good on low
end Atari), you can print, spellcheck, addressbook, check newsgroup mixed
with email, easy interface, constantly developed/updated, multiplatform
mailer, you can use any editor you want to type your messages, (wanna use
Luna to type your email? no problem, set pine to use external editor),
wanna view Attachement pictures (MIME) from PINE? define a viewer to start
a GEM viewer etc.
Very powerful mailer, this is not crap, and has been available since AGES!
Didn't have to wait for ash to release their mailer, half-assed.
Besides, because it is text based (ncurses), i can check my email,
newsgroups from anywhere (from work for example) as long as I can telnet,
or ssh to my machine, like if I was at home.
How do you do that on magic?
You probably don't care anyway.
Oh, and btw, if pine was such crap, why does it even exist on windows?
Or even macosx!!!
Don't they have good mailer as well?
The entire must be mad.
> See Janez, that's an example of what I just wrote.... you read things into
> my posts that I've never written : I never declared MiNT shit, but I did
> and do declare almost all the MiNT-specific things crap, shit, lousy
> etc... almost all the Mint-specific stuff is ported and it shows, MiNT
> isn't responsible for this, it's just an OS. And it's a pity really, it
> deserves much better.
One thing you seem to forget is:
Mint environment = all main GEM application + magic apps (most of them
anyway).
So in what way is that bad?
Oh and let's not forget that ON TOP of that you can run a shit load of
unix apps, at the same time as your GUI! with no need to switch anything.
It all cooperate very nicely.
Do you know how cool it is to have papyrus, or calamus or whatever Atari
GEM application running and in another window having some unix
application?
MiNT = what you've got + extra.
(perfect combination if you ask me)
Some people are getting pissed because:
Magic = what you use to have - some extra that don't work anymore.
(otherwise GEMDOS FATAL ERROR)
lp
Frederic Fouche at g21...@coazter.com wrote on 8/18/03 5:51 PM:
> On Mon, 18 Aug 2003, Dennis Vermeire wrote:
>
>> Because even the greatest MiNT die hard realised that Pine is ported crap,
>> and nothing beats a platform specific app?
This is a utterly wrong statement. Just cause the GUI is not what you
expect it to be doesn't lessen the feature set. On any platform pine
out performs anything I've ever seen, especially on the Atari.
Nothing comes to close to all these features. You really need to separate
MiNT from pine, the 2 are not related since pine exists for nearly all
platforms. I can see your comments come full circle, this is where the
piss poor attitude began, back with CLI's and pine and so on.
I don't even use pine and still nothing on this platform comes close to it.
Nothing probably ever will.
> Pine a ported crap?
> What emailer on atari (not ported) supports IMAP? (yes I use that)
> Please do some research before you claim something to be crap.
> PINE is awesome because of IMAP, speed, low reqs (specially good on low
> end Atari), you can print, spellcheck, addressbook, check newsgroup mixed
> with email, easy interface, constantly developed/updated, multiplatform
> mailer, you can use any editor you want to type your messages, (wanna use
> Luna to type your email? no problem, set pine to use external editor),
> wanna view Attachement pictures (MIME) from PINE? define a viewer to start
> a GEM viewer etc.
> Very powerful mailer, this is not crap, and has been available since AGES!
> Didn't have to wait for ash to release their mailer, half-assed.
>
> Besides, because it is text based (ncurses), i can check my email,
> newsgroups from anywhere (from work for example) as long as I can telnet,
> or ssh to my machine, like if I was at home.
> How do you do that on magic?
> You probably don't care anyway.
>
> Oh, and btw, if pine was such crap, why does it even exist on windows?
> Or even macosx!!!
> Don't they have good mailer as well?
> The entire must be mad.
I agree about pine!
The entire world must be mad. ;-)
>> See Janez, that's an example of what I just wrote.... you read things into
>> my posts that I've never written : I never declared MiNT shit, but I did
>> and do declare almost all the MiNT-specific things crap, shit, lousy
>> etc... almost all the Mint-specific stuff is ported and it shows, MiNT
>> isn't responsible for this, it's just an OS. And it's a pity really, it
>> deserves much better.
This is your fatal mistake, and the main reason I consider your posts
worthless. Yes, I happen to see this one, only cause someone quoted it.
Not only do you insult the dedicated Atari users who take the time to make
this software available. You are insulting the users that use pine on any
platform. You also insult the authors of pine itself. These apps are 100%
optional under a mint setup, I don't see why they are viewed with such
hatred. I personally used pine on my TT030 and Hades for quite sometime
and hense I take those comments as offensive as others do.
Not only is that ignorance on your part, you fail to grasp that pine looks
nearly identical to all other versions on other platforms. It's suppose to
look like that. Duh! Some people prefer this stuff, and yes it's not for
everyone, but it most definitely has great value to many, and not just on
the Atari platform.
I could easily say all magic apps that refuse to run on my mint setup are
complete junk, trash, whatever. But in reality that is only my opinion
and they will still have value to someone else. Someone such as yourself
maybe. Apparently you have no feelings whatsoever for the other guy
who finds the stuff you can't use very useful. Sad.
> Some people are getting pissed because:
> Magic = what you use to have - some extra that don't work anymore.
> (otherwise GEMDOS FATAL ERROR)
Well, the hatred comes from somewhere, it might be related to the fact
that they can't run the stuff easily if at all. But the culprit is magic,
as it is the one that fails to follow the standards, followed by iconnect.
Yes let's reinvent the wheel and make it non-networkable and incompatible
with mintnet, which was out long before it.
--
Lonny Pursell http://www.q1.net/~atari/html/for_sale.htm
Edward S. Baiz Jr.
>maintaining the Atari version of Magic? Maybe I'm just
>misinterpreting. Anyway, what about the possibility of making a port
>of the Magic GUI to Mint? As you say, Mint has its advantages over
>Magic, and is very stable. Unfortunately, the GUI's on Mint aren't
>nearly as nice as Magic's GUI. I would pay for Magic all over again to
>have it be able to run on the Mint kernal! That would be the ultimate
>update, as far as I'm concerned!
>
> Mike Freeman
> ma...@freeman-studio.com
Geeze, I would love to have a version of Magic for my Hades that
would run the Mint kernal. That would be super and I would pay
almost anything for that.
--
Edward S. Baiz Jr.
(Gamer)
HADES 060: 256meg Ram, Yamaha & Sony CDRW Drive, 1 gig
Jaz Drive, MicroTek E3 Scanner, Mach 64 w/4meg Ram, Epson
Photo 700 printer, PCI Networking Card, ICQ#91257633
PROGRAMS: Extendos Gold, Cab 2.8, ScanX, GlueStik, aFTP,
Calamus SL2002, Newswatch, Okami, PlayMyCD, Papyrus 8, Smurf,
Nova Driver 2.67, NVDI 5, Mint(Net), Magic(Net), N.AES, Geneva
Edward S. Baiz Jr.
It would be so nice to have a total rewrite of Magic. It runs so
nice on my Hades, that a newer updated version would be welcomed
and appreciated.
Janez Valant
All,
Ill reply this in some kind of 3rd person, since i only wana explain my
views on MiNT, why i like it, and why i think its prefered OS for Atari in
future. "in future" explicitely means on newer hardware, hardware yet to
come, ct60 etc.. Im not claiming this hardware will happen, but it was said
there, that CT60 will never happen, but one is now ticking in my machine...
> On Mon, 18 Aug 2003, Dennis Vermeire wrote:
>
>> Because even the greatest MiNT die hard realised that Pine is ported
>> crap, and nothing beats a platform specific app?
Well can all that be twisted even more? Reason as may as well be the fact
that even if there is Pine, those guys prefer Atari and know that all cant
run Pine and they still wana contribute. I know thats the facty with Atack
guys, they dont refer to pine as crap, but as great mailer. Also they say
that they wanted to do usefull browser for GEM too because Pine cant run on
most Ataris, they used many Pine things in Amail, also the importer of Pine
mailbox, addresbook, and started on newsgroups as well, sadly we can only
read news, and cant reply. They also did mintet, stik.. stacks. And the
thing is even free.
> Pine a ported crap?
> What emailer on atari (not ported) supports IMAP? (yes I use that)
> Please do some research before you claim something to be crap.
> PINE is awesome because of IMAP, speed, low reqs (specially good on low
> end Atari), you can print, spellcheck, addressbook, check newsgroup mixed
> with email, easy interface, constantly developed/updated, multiplatform
> mailer, you can use any editor you want to type your messages, (wanna use
> Luna to type your email? no problem, set pine to use external editor),
> wanna view Attachement pictures (MIME) from PINE? define a viewer to start
> a GEM viewer etc.
> Very powerful mailer, this is not crap, and has been available since AGES!
> Didn't have to wait for ash to release their mailer, half-assed.
Well i have divided feelings bout Pine. I do agre with Dennis that Pine
aint native app, and that all services we like under GEM doesnt apply to it
and that it is "alien" application, and in recent times i started to use
AtackMail... On other hand, IMAP is very good feature, esp for modem users,
also Pine has advantages like good spellchecker (ispell), good adressbook,
newsreader and definately not a crap... Like Lonny said, calling it crap,
just since dont use our GUI is insult to users and developers, and thats
esxactly the part i disagre with Dennis! Especialy since he stretch that to
all what he dont like/use... I dont like Magic, still i never did say its
bad or that Andreas is bad... I even called it a "gem". And even as Andreas
said he did a mistake not to use layered design, i NEVER bitch about
Magic's monolite design. It was prolly the best way to do it then, and he
choosed that option.. By NO MEANS that make him lame... Dennis on other
hand, use word lame, lamers, crap a LOT. Also must mention, that Dennis
said that those apps (pine etc...) work better on PC anyway so no use to
run them on Atari... thats TRUE Atari spirit. All is better as runing Pine
on Atari (since it dont run in magic) even buying pc, or Mac etc.. Im a lot
more happy with my TT runing MiNT and riebl ethernet card, acting like
server with ip masquarading, so i had falcon pliped to it and accesed inet
via TT.... I have MiNT installed, alien servers like ftp and apache httpd
servers, and that is.. Still beats any REAL alien linux/windows servers, or
inet gateways.. Im proud on my 100% atari hardware inet acces... Anyone
saying thats LESS spirit as using other machines and put Ataris to closet,
is just plain wrong. For end> TT being server still runs GEM, can be
admninstrated via GEM, or just play games or anythings WHILE alien crap
runing in bacground, transparently....
I would be VERY happy, if i could use similar native app, maybe a bit
worse, but sadly Newsie has problems, MyMail also, so i did used Pine as
mailer, later AtackMail and Knews (X11 newsreader) since it has great
thread abilites.. I still run Pine as well, depends on mood i am.. Also i
do use ircII (CLI). I find Airc great app, especialy VA_Start and stuff,
but i dont use it. And i never called it crap, also Lonny knows i prefer
ircII and ve NEVER had any grudge about it.. I still do test all new
releases. And i also must explain why i use ircII: I love CLI, but
especialy virtual consoles. That way i can run ircII, maybe Pine etc on
virtual consoles, and have AES free for other apps. Im a lot on irc, Airc
takes 2/3 of screen, i hate switiching or moving windows.. Other thing
what i like is that vconsoles are indendent of AES, so if ircing or
fetching large file from internet etc, i still may change resolution, or
crash AES, which can happen frequently, esp if im coding, i can use full
screen apps like Apex or Neon etc. Vconsoles and apps runing in them, dont
exit etc, when AES is restarted or res change take place...
> Besides, because it is text based (ncurses), i can check my email,
> newsgroups from anywhere (from work for example) as long as I can telnet,
> or ssh to my machine, like if I was at home.
Yes SSH is big reason... It is very good to use machines remotely, and
since telnet is mainly not used anymore, SSH is needed. If i enter Unix
domain, which is not related to Atari, its still great to acces own machine
from work, read mail, which in many cases, came directly to our machines,
not on remote pop servers etc, maybe even do some maintenance.... Also need
to mention SSL. Without that, u cant use e-banking etc.. and MiNT offers
SSL to be used with CAB, not only with some alien app. Other problem is
that CAB has probs with some forms and dialogs, esp things introduced after
CAB developing stoped, but SSL support to GEM is done via MiNT.
> How do you do that on magic?
U cant... But that dont make it bad OS.. Its great little os, and by
"little" i meant that in GOOD way... Its capable os, look nice, mtask as
its need to be done.. If u look so "great" Amiga OS, Magic does better and
with a lot less resources.. Some things are missing, but nothing essential.
BUT, again, i need to say that all stuff i do like in MiNT, all which in
my eyes makes it "better" as Magic are BONUS in MiNT. Atari feeling is not
risked. I know many ppl, with Mtos like setup only (just kernel + naes),
just to take advantages of loadable devices, like ext2 drivers, since, lets
be fair, ext2 partitons are fast and rock solid. Long names also aint
problem on them etc.. or just to use some inet drivers, maybe nfs. I do
admit, that sometimes (esp net stuff) do require some fiddling with U:
drive, but i NEVER dismissed anyone who asked for help if i was able to
help. Dont forget, such driver, let say some internet protocol, can be
compiled on MiNT easily and its ready to use.. Dont fell on
"antipropaganda" that all that is just talk and dreaming, and there is no
scsi<>ethernet drivers etc... Those devices are NOT free, and driver
sources are NOT available, same as hardware specs for devices, so they cant
just be compiled...
And again, those things are bonus and optional! U may use them or not, u
may install full Easy MiNT or u may install just kernel + N.AES. The
problem as i see it, is that MiNT, esp FreeMiNT and EasyMiNT are freeware,
but N.AES is not. So atm, there is no distribution which would install AES
as well. That means, that unfortunately, EasyMiNT installer installs MiNT
and Unix envoriment, but not N.AES. so that must be done manualy... And
dont hesitate to ask for help, we are NOT monsters, ppl wana show us as!
> You probably don't care anyway.
Yes, thats another thing which imho is bad.. "I dont need that. so i dont
care" attitude... that dont help scene a bit.. imho, its destructive.... So
if someone makes app for calculating popcorn baking times so what.. Better
spen time and knowledge as the time spent for bashing him wht he did such
useles crap...
> Oh, and btw, if pine was such crap, why does it even exist on windows?
> Or even macosx!!!
> Don't they have good mailer as well?
> The entire must be mad.
Good point....
>> See Janez, that's an example of what I just wrote.... you read things
>> into my posts that I've never written : I never declared MiNT shit, but I
>> did and do declare almost all the MiNT-specific things crap, shit, lousy
>> etc... almost all the Mint-specific stuff is ported and it shows, MiNT
>> isn't responsible for this, it's just an OS. And it's a pity really, it
>> deserves much better.
He didnt declare it shit... But he did declare it some other names, u
declared Andreas Kromke the only capable coder left, and MiNT developers
half brained loosers... To avoid mistake: Andreas is great coder and Magic
is extraorindary product! But on other hand Frank Nauman, Konrad and
company are good coders as well, they put BIG efforts so that MiNT can be
as fast as it is (run Linux on Atari for example) to implmemnt complete
bios/xbios in, to even create new cals, and all in goal that MiNt will STAY
Atari OS, not even one Atari app, clearly written dont crap on MiNT since
developers cutted something out.. Now, how many Macos<X apps run on MacosX,
without emulation, patches etc? Macs even came with both OSes installed....
Also remeber, he is a master of selective quoting... i NEVER seen any
quoting in his replys, showing that i actualy said good things bout Magic
etc.. or other ppl that is... He is one person agains many MiNTers here,
yet word counting for crap, idiotic, etc, he would win easily....
> One thing you seem to forget is:
>
> Mint environment = all main GEM application + magic apps (most of them
> anyway).
> So in what way is that bad?
> Oh and let's not forget that ON TOP of that you can run a shit load of
> unix apps, at the same time as your GUI! with no need to switch anything.
> It all cooperate very nicely.
Yes! That is forgotten selectively.... SSL, ethernet drivers, nfs drivers
and so on runs transparently... Any GEM application benefit from that. If u
for example use NFS driver (network file system - imagine a virtual hdd,
which via lan or internet is actualy HDD on remote machine, like your PC,
or pals PC in XXX place, and u can access it like own hdd) any GEM app,
including Desktop, will have acces to it, like normal partiton/path, only
diference is acces time, which is as fast as your inet/lan acces. im my
case (OZKs MiNT ethernec drivers and Stimps ethernec) thats up to 400kb/s
to PC in LAN. U may say thats only inet drivers... but imho there is
actualy real strenght of MiNT vs Magic/TOS. Inet changes, inet protocols
change, ppp protocol change, cable replaces ppp, DSL, new protocols are yet
to come and MiNT stack, and ability to load external devices alows us to
adopt quickly.. I have my Ataris directly to cable for 5+ years for
example. I dont go via PC, but directly (ok last few months via router, to
have proper LAN)
> Do you know how cool it is to have papyrus, or calamus or whatever Atari
> GEM application running and in another window having some unix
> application?
Personaly i dont think that bare fact of running some X app in GEM is
cool. Many X apps are bad, to say atleast, and better ones are quite
demanding. But i am very excited, that we have software which allows to run
alien apps on TOP of our native OS, without rebooting, ditching native GUI
and so on. Even more exciting is, that MiNT, with its transparent features
(here i mean drivers etc, not some ultra hyper cool port of an big
application) allows us to run X apps remotely. That means binaries are
executed on host machine, so they run fast, and display is redirected to
GEM window... only limit is connection speed... Now, lets be fair, sense of
such thing is questionable, but pure fact that its possible, its only
available on demand (wont eat resources if u dont wana it) an not harm
native OS/GUI or need reboot is very exciting... We have saying here, which
say something like this:"U cant miss things, if u have too much of them"
and i realy dont know why bonus ability should be bad...
One can say, that instead of adding extras to OS, coders should rather
develop apps... that may seems true, but, to make better apps, more
capable, u need to have better OS, especialy for GEM apps... Magic coders
did introduce new things, and only when that was done, apps, which Magic
comunity likes a lot, were possible to exist. MiNT coders are small portion
of coders, so we must ask others do do new stuff etc, not blame MiNT
developers bout lack of apps. Especialy since any clearly written
application will work on most Ataro OSes. I didnt do much GEM stuff, but
GGT2 i did in GFA, with Face Value in TOS, didnt spent 1s thinking bout OS
at all, and it works correctly...
>
> MiNT = what you've got + extra.
> (perfect combination if you ask me)
Yes. With one exception: it is resource hungry. All goodies i counted, can
be used on clone, or accelerated falcon... Accelerated more because ct2/60
have lots of FastRAM, not so much cause of CPU power,since Unix envoirment,
apps etc are ram hungry. But of course, speed is welcome, and no OS is
exception here.. Many "hardcore" atarians went MagicMAC because of power..
Many Magic fans ordered Ct60 as well. Odd, since here we hear that only
MiNT is sloooooooow.
> Some people are getting pissed because:
> Magic = what you use to have - some extra that don't work anymore.
> (otherwise GEMDOS FATAL ERROR)
Yes, and that what i realy cant grasp... We mention that we can runs some
extra stuff, and suddenly we are traitors, OS lack Atari spirit etc.. And
no bad words of those who for SAME stuff bought PC or MAC, or sent Atari in
closets or in bin and now use MagicMAC.. All that is perfectly okay, but
attempt to run those apps on our Ataris, is dreaming and so on.. But well,
Lindbergh was called dreamer as well, same as Wright brothers..
I LOVE my Ataris, i use them daily, lately i use PC as well for
newsreading and 3d astronomy apps, stuff i cant realy so far use on
Ataris, either cause lack of power or lack of apps. I love Ataris with
their bad sides, because they have so many good sides, because even today,
they feel the same as in days of glory... I use alien apps, and i use it
from simple reason, IF i have to use alien app (no matter if pine, outlook
express, whatwewer) i rather do that on my Atari. No one, using ALIEN apps
on ALIEN machine has right to question my Atari spirit, or spirit of those
developing ANYTHIG for Atari!! Thats all...
Janez
P.S> Forgot this: even XAAES got its share of critics. Magic fans, MiNT
haters, Dennis, instead of bitching, and moaning and cursing, try to
contact XAAES authors, or mailing list and suggest changes, what ud like,
what u dont like... It is AES in making, oportunity to add, and make it
more likely for u... Same for Highwire, instead of ranting its bad offline
browser, contact authors and try to make it better... That is one of good
things with open projects.
lp
s...@atari.org wrote on 8/19/03 2:05 PM:
[big snip]
> I would be VERY happy, if i could use similar native app, maybe a bit
> worse, but sadly Newsie has problems, MyMail also, so i did used Pine as
> mailer, later AtackMail and Knews (X11 newsreader) since it has great
> thread abilites.. I still run Pine as well, depends on mood i am.. Also i
> do use ircII (CLI). I find Airc great app, especialy VA_Start and stuff,
> but i dont use it. And i never called it crap, also Lonny knows i prefer
> ircII and ve NEVER had any grudge about it.. I still do test all new
> releases. And i also must explain why i use ircII: I love CLI, but
> especialy virtual consoles. That way i can run ircII, maybe Pine etc on
> virtual consoles, and have AES free for other apps. Im a lot on irc, Airc
> takes 2/3 of screen, i hate switiching or moving windows.. Other thing
> what i like is that vconsoles are indendent of AES, so if ircing or
> fetching large file from internet etc, i still may change resolution, or
> crash AES, which can happen frequently, esp if im coding, i can use full
> screen apps like Apex or Neon etc. Vconsoles and apps runing in them, dont
> exit etc, when AES is restarted or res change take place...
Let me add there are 2 unix irc clients available for mint, I recommend
people try them. I even like ircII (has scripting and all), but since I
have huge screen, aIRC is good enough. ;-)
Nice post btw.
Steve Sweet
> Oh, and btw, if pine was such crap, why does it even exist on windows?
Bad analogy, big hole in foot 8~)
--
Regards Steve
You've not seen a worried sheep
until you've seen a sheep worried by me!!
Dennis Vermeire
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 20:05:58 +0200
Hi Janez,
>All,
>
>Ill reply this in some kind of 3rd person, since i only wana explain my
>views on MiNT, why i like it, and why i think its prefered OS for Atari in
>future. "in future" explicitely means on newer hardware, hardware yet to
>come, ct60 etc..
Nice start for a posting :-)
>Dennis on other hand, use word lame, lamers, crap a LOT. Also must mention,
>that Dennis said that those apps (pine etc...) work better on PC anyway so
>no use to run them on Atari... thats TRUE Atari spirit. All is better as
>runing Pine
Whoops! you've just missed a bend, what happened to your initial intentions
about explaining your views on MiNT?
>Like Lonny said, calling it crap, just since dont use our GUI is insult to
>users and developers, and thats esxactly the part i disagre with Dennis!
Whoops! you've missed another bend.... sorry, game over. :-/
There are two reasons why I call it crap, the biggest reason which you and
Lonny like to overlook is that these apps only run on one of three major
used OS's... and yes the second reason is that I like to use apps with a
GUI... I don't like apps which are OS-specific, I don't even like MagiC-
specific apps, luckily there are only a handfull of them (the Iconnect
clients). It took a while before MagiC developers realised this and were
told that MagiC-specific apps were not the way to persue on this platform,
and now it's time someone tells the MiNT-community the same thing, because
they are making the same mistake (yep, I call it a mistake). If you really
so worried for the future of this platform, then it should be crystal clear
that supporting only one OS can only lead to a lot of people turning their
back on it. Developing & porting apps that only run on one OS, will leave a
lot of people standing in the cold, and they'll look for a warmer place. We
all agree that MiNT really needs a powerfull setup, and since it's only a
small minority who happens to have and enjoy such a setup....
So yes, I refer to OS-specific apps which on top of that come with no GUI as
crap... so what? What's in a name? Would you like me to call them in future
"Apps I rather don't use"? Let's call a horse a horse.... you would flame me
just the same for not respecting the work of the author and the community,
the thing is, you don't want to see anything negative written about that
stuff... Like I said before, you like us all to cheer and be gratefull to
who ever ported it....sorry Janez, can't to that :-/
>Dennis on other hand, use word lame, lamers, crap a LOT.
>
Yes I did use them a lot, but that's because you and others here kept
dishing out a lot of stuff that deserves to be called like that.
>Also must mention, that Dennis said that those apps (pine etc...) work
>better on PC anyway so no use to run them on Atari... thats TRUE Atari
>spirit.
I'm talking about real Atari's here, not clones or a mere 150 CT-60 powered
Falcons... taking that in account do you really advice someone with a normal
TT or Falcon to run that stuff? Did I say run? Sorry I ment crawl....
>All is better as runing Pine on Atari (since it dont run in magic) even
>buying pc, or Mac etc..
Irony doesn't suit you Janez....
Let's rephrase that sentence a little :"All is better as running Pine on
Atari (since it's OS-specific), buy a PC or Mac if you really want to use
it, otherwise use a Atari-specific program."
How about that? That's what I really ment... no need to twist words around.
>I find Airc great app, especialy VA_Start and stuff,but i dont use it. And
>i never called it crap, also Lonny knows i prefer ircII and ve NEVER had
>any grudge about it..
We finally found something we agree on.... :-)
I never said that Airc is crap either, it's not because Lonny doesn't think
much of my "contributions" that I automatically think the same of his. We
have an argument at the moment, but that doesn't have anything to do with
what he created and/or will develop in future.
>Yes, and that what i realy cant grasp... We mention that we can runs some
>extra stuff, and suddenly we are traitors, OS lack Atari spirit etc.. And
>no bad words of those who for SAME stuff bought PC or MAC, or sent Atari in
>closets or in bin and now use MagicMAC..
You can't grasp it because you still look at this subject with a blurred
vision... there are people who buy a PC or Mac and forget all about Atari,
they do come back from time to time here asking how to convert their old
games to a format which their new platforms understands. These people aren't
Atari users anymore. Then there are people who love working with Atari but
some of their favourite applications need power, power which their original
hardware lacks. If they happen to use a Falcon they could have tried to get
hold of a CT-60, and having to wait for it 2 years... If they happen to have
a TT, they don't even have a choice. There are no more clones for sale, sure
they could wait for the next clone to arrive, that one is almost three years
in the pipeline... waiting for stuff to appear is nice, if you don't need the
power today... so these people bought a PC or Mac and run their apps on an
emulator, an in the mean time they can use stuff from that other platform as
well, stuff which is not available on this platform. As a matter of fact I'm
writing this post on a Mac running MagiCMac right now... so what? If this
was a Mac newsgroup I could be flamed for using "alien" software, but since
this isn't the case...
I've got a 060-clone gathering dust here ever since I bought the Mac. MagiCMac
is almost 20X faster, and everything that runs under Atari-MagiC runs under
Mac-MagiC also. So from where I am sitting, I moved forward... although the
clone is gathering dust, the TT isn't, I use it almost every day for doing
things that are not processor intensive. And yes, I enjoy working with the TT
much more, but at a certain point one has to make a choice. Unlike many I
didn't bought the Mac to move away from this platform, my only reason was to
run MagiCMac and have a fast Atari, in the mean time I discovered some Mac
apps which we haven't got, so from time to time I use Mac software, but only
if there's no alternative. For Internet access I still use the IConnect-
clients except for browsing, I browse with Opera now. There's absolutely no
reason for me to start using a Mac mailer, news, ftp etc client, they aren't
any better and don't really offer anything more either... and the same can
be said for a lot of the Atari apps. If tomorrow someone announces a 060 or
PowerPC upgrade for the TT, I'll be standing in front of the line to get my
hands on one, but until then I'll use MagiCMac.
>All that is perfectly okay, but attempt to run those apps on our Ataris, is
>dreaming and so on.. But well, Lindbergh was called dreamer as well, same as
>Wright brothers..
You can port the apps and start them up, but there's no way you'll ever see
them "run", at best they'll "crawl" on a Atari, clone or powered Falcon. And
anyone stating different in my book is a dreamer... I've been reading the
silliest claims here over the years and kept my trap shut just like all the
others, now I don't keep it shut anymore... though! The best you can do is
port some small utilities, drivers and apps that don't require power from the
processor.If you think *that* stuff is going to save this platform....
Who are we kidding anyway? A 68060 is a lot faster then a 68030 but by today
standards it's just as outdated.
>Also need to mention SSL. Without that, u cant use e-banking etc.. and MiNT
>offers SSL to be used with CAB, not only with some alien app. Other problem
>is that CAB has probs with some forms and dialogs, esp things introduced
>after CAB developing stoped, but SSL support to GEM is done via MiNT.
We gaven't got a browser on this platform that allows entrance, most of the
sites that require SSL, require JavaScript as well... at the time that SSL
was developed for MinTNet it was iilegal to export it out of the States.
The programmer of IConnect didn't want to break any laws, and that's probably
the reason why all the other stacks haven't got SSL either but IMO this isn't
an OS related matter...
BTW: I work in a bank.... and I've seen too many horror stories the last
couple of years. I would **never ever** use e-banking. And no, I will not
comment further on this issue.... work it out for yourself.
>BUT, again, i need to say that all stuff i do like in MiNT, all which in
>my eyes makes it "better" as Magic are BONUS in MiNT. Atari feeling is not
>risked. I know many ppl, with Mtos like setup only (just kernel + naes),
>just to take advantages of loadable devices, like ext2 drivers, since, lets
>be fair, ext2 partitons are fast and rock solid. Long names also aint
>problem on them etc..
Yes let's be fair: what's wrong with FAT32 partitions? these are fast and
rock solid also, and long names aren't a problem either... and they are
recognised by PC and Mac, which is great for compatibility reasons.
>Dont forget, such driver, let say some internet protocol, can be
>compiled on MiNT easily and its ready to use.. Dont fell on
>"antipropaganda" that all that is just talk and dreaming, and there is no
>scsi<>ethernet drivers etc... Those devices are NOT free, and driver
>sources are NOT available, same as hardware specs for devices, so they cant
>just be compiled...
Antipropaganda? You've just shown what I'm on about for the last two months.
Don't expect miracles... and if anyone promises them, call them dreamers. The
best we can hope for is a bunch of drivers, which will only be of use to a
*very small minority*. People that develop apps from scratch are obviously
not part of the MiNT-community, except for people improving the OS itself and
a bunch of guys porting over some more exotic drivers.... that's it.
If you wannna see a new word processor, spreadsheet, PDF reader, DTP, graphic
or even a DVD driver appear, then better put yout trust in the gang that caters
for the three major used OS's. Oh, but there's one small difference ofcourse,
these people want to be payed for their work... so the choice is easy realy,
you all put your money on the dreamers dreaming up dreams, or you all are
realistic for once and support the side that never comes in here, shouting
out loud and claiming silly things, which never appear....
>And again, those things are bonus and optional! U may use them or not, u
>may install full Easy MiNT or u may install just kernel + N.AES. The
>problem as i see it, is that MiNT, esp FreeMiNT and EasyMiNT are freeware,
>but N.AES is not. So atm, there is no distribution which would install AES
>as well. That means, that unfortunately, EasyMiNT installer installs MiNT
>and Unix envoriment, but not N.AES. so that must be done manualy... And
>dont hesitate to ask for help, we are NOT monsters, ppl wana show us as!
So why can't XaAES and Thing be put in a distribution? Someone who wants a
better setup can still opt to install N.AES and/or Jinnee later on... and
IMHO an installer should be able to install the whole lot, without people
having to ask help afterwards.... ever seen the GEMinstaller in action? How
difficult can it be to write a script for it that covers almost every possible
setup? hell I even done it....
>> You probably don't care anyway.
>
>Yes, thats another thing which imho is bad.. "I dont need that. so i dont
>care" attitude... that dont help scene a bit.. imho, its destructive....
There's nothing bad about it... I'm not even remotely interested in anything
coming from the unix world. And from what I've written above it should be
crystal clear that I don't believe in the fairy tale about that stuff helping
the "scene" at all either. So yep, I DON'T CARE. And please stop with that
"destructive" tale... that word is used here whenever it suits someone. The
only thing that will get destroyed eventually is the enormous ego of the guy
who ported that crap... Why would I or anyone else care for something that
doesn't interest him?
E.g: I'm not interested at all in the scene that codes demo's, it's beyond me
why on earth some people waste valuable time on coding that stuff, if tomorow
someone codes the *ultimate* demo, fine...
But you won't hear me cheering, that demo won't help this platform one little
step further at all, so IMO it'll be useless, a waste of time, not necessary,
and I'll most likely will refer to it as "crap". But I really fail to see how
this could be destructive? Someone who creates something, no matter what, be it
a program, book, music or whatever, should be prepared to be critisized, and
not all critic is constructive...
Now, supposing you would port a nfs driver.... fine, it's probably because you
needed it, and if a few others can use it so much the better. But when you or
someone else come in here cheering about it and telling us this is the way
foreward for this platform, expect to find me on your path... that driver might
be usefull for some people, but the patform itself won't move forward at all
with or without that driver.
It's simple really, look at this and all the other platforms, and see what the
most used applications are.. that's the stuff which needs to be spewed out, if
you can port is and it runs at a reasonable speed, so much the better, if not
then it'll need to be created from scratch. One thing this and related threads
made painfully clear is that the majority here wants a better newsreader, and
since the majority wants it, it'll need to be more then a CLI running in a GEM
window... a GEM newsreader running on the three OS's and preferably with the
three major used stacks (MiNTNet, STiK/STiNG and IConnect) is one of the things
I call moving forward...
>So if someone makes app for calculating popcorn baking times so what..
>Better spen time and knowledge as the time spent for bashing him wht he did
>such useles crap...
Not at all.... he after all ****MADE**** it, he didn't port it. And that is
something completely different. That popcorn baking time utility would also
run on the three OS's. Unlike some people I never bash Atari software or
Atari programmers, as long as they cater for the whole platform, everything
is just fine by me... I don't bake popcorn so I don't need it, but it'll be
an asset for the ever growing catalogue... ever looked at that ported stuff
catalogue?
>>Oh, and btw, if pine was such crap, why does it even exist on windows?
>>Or even macosx!!!
>>Don't they have good mailer as well?
>>The entire must be mad.
>
>Good point....
The fact that something exists on a platform doesn't automatically means it's
good... Have you ever see and used Word Perfect and MS Word for Atari? These
two are crap also... The number of people using it in general is a good way
to measure how popular an app is. Just take a look in the Mac and PC groups,
and see the amazing number of people posting with Pine there for yourself.
Still think it's a good point? I think it's a stupid to make point... Kobold,
Papyrus, Phoenix database, GFA basic etc... are also available for the PC,
existing on a different platform, doesn't say anything about the quality of the
software...
>Also remeber, he is a master of selective quoting... i NEVER seen any
>quoting in his replys, showing that i actualy said good things bout Magic
>etc.. or other ppl that is..
Ofcourse you didn't see me quoting that, I'm not going to reply to something
I agree on... I don't think that there is one person here that doesn't apply
selective quoting. If we would all have to reply to posts in full, then we
would be writing night and day... This and some other related threads, take
enough of my time as it is. Applying selective quoting is not something which
I've invented. We all do it....
You also only reply to bits and pieces of posts that suits you, so we've got
another thing in common :-)
>He is one person agains many MiNTers here, yet word counting for crap,
>idiotic, etc, he would win easily....
I'm counting 4 or 5 MiNTers, if that number is "many" by your standards then
this platform is in a much worser shape then I thought...
As for the word counting: just like you I'm not an English native speaker,
I've learned traditional English at school, and picked up foul English in
here. "Spewing bullshit" has the trademark from Lonny stamped all over it,
"idiot, idiots, idiotic" carries the Frederic Fouchet trademark. etc. Let's
say that I've stooped down to their own level and that they don't appreciate
it... so yes, I'm winning on points :-)
In general you don't use foul language when addressing me, and neither do I,
you'll only see me using it when someone dished a bowl out for me...
>P.S> Forgot this: even XAAES got its share of critics. Magic fans, MiNT
>haters, Dennis, instead of bitching, and moaning and cursing, try to
>contact XAAES authors, or mailing list and suggest changes, what ud like,
>what u dont like...
Janez, you really need to read my posts better.... I've repeatedly said here
that XaAES is a *LOT* better then N.AES, I even gave examples of apps not or
incorrectly running under N.AES, while being perfect under XaAES. So all that
moaning, bitching and cursing comes from someone else.... it can't come from
MagiC fans or MiNT haters either... so you'll better look in your own corner
to blame a couple of persons.
>Same for Highwire, instead of ranting its bad offline browser, contact
>authors and try to make it better... That is one of good things with open
>projects.
You are number three on the list so far who would love to hear me make some
comments on Highwire... so far, I can only say this about it: I have a much
better offline browser here and since I can't go online with it (no Iconnect
support), the actual version is rather useless for me... But I do disagree
completely about "one of the good things with open projects", give me just
*one* example of an open project that is now better then it's equivalent, be
it shareware or commercial...
You guys want everything to become open projects the problem however is that
hardly anyone is capable of bringing it to a good end... What happened to QED
since it's an open project? What happened to Chagall? etc...
>Many "hardcore" atarians went MagicMAC because of power..
>Many Magic fans ordered Ct60 as well. Odd, since here we hear that only
>MiNT is sloooooooow.
Read the posts again.... almost all these statements were made by MiNT users,
hell you even said it yourself...
MagiC is a little faster but it's not like we're talking factor 2X here, what
I also remember from these posts it that the impression was given that MagiC is
only usable on lowerend machines. Why would only MiNT benefit from running on a
68060? Remember MagiC-Milan? Also remember that the Milan came pre-installed
with MiNT+N.AES+Thing? Ever thought why on earth some 50% of the users payed
$200 extra for running a different OS? People recognise crap when they see it...
The Milan was a MiNT machine.... it's dead, which only goes to show ;-)
Cheers from Belgium
Dennis
Dennis Vermeire
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 16:51:25 -0500
Hi Frederic,
>>Because even the greatest MiNT die hard realised that Pine is ported crap,
>>and nothing beats a platform specific app?
>
>Pine a ported crap?
Yep :-)
>What emailer on atari (not ported) supports IMAP? (yes I use that)
>Please do some research before you claim something to be crap.
AFAIK none... supporting IMAP or not doesn't change one thing to the fact
that it's crap on *THIS* platform. And since there are hardly any Pine users
here I presume that IMAP is not an important issue for most of us...
>PINE is awesome because of IMAP, speed, low reqs (specially good on low
>end Atari), you can print, spellcheck, addressbook, check newsgroup mixed
>with email, easy interface, constantly developed/updated, multiplatform
>mailer, you can use any editor you want to type your messages, (wanna use
>Luna to type your email? no problem, set pine to use external editor),
>wanna view Attachement pictures (MIME) from PINE? define a viewer to start
>a GEM viewer etc.
Gee... you've just described my mailer, and it ain't called Pine. Oh you
forgot a couple of minor issues, like filtering, a database mode, drag &
drop, GEMScript client, perfect integration with other clients of the same
family etc.
>Besides, because it is text based (ncurses), i can check my email,
>newsgroups from anywhere (from work for example) as long as I can telnet,
>or ssh to my machine, like if I was at home.
>How do you do that on magic?
>You probably don't care anyway.
I don't need to.... I can check my mail anywhere in the world, all I need is
a computer and an internet connection. I can even check it on my cell phone,
I can check it on a web based server also. You're example would have been an
issue a couple of years ago, today however just like Telnet it's superseded.
>Oh, and btw, if pine was such crap, why does it even exist on windows?
>Or even macosx!!!
>Don't they have good mailer as well?
>The entire must be mad.
Since when it that a sign of quality? Take a peek in a Mac or PC newsgroup to
see how may people post with Pine... for the record, I don't care about what
runs and is available on other platforms. Pine on this platform is crap, and
there are several good alternatives available...
>Do you know how cool it is to have papyrus, or calamus or whatever Atari
>GEM application running and in another window having some unix
>application?
I don't care if it's cool or not. For the same money you can open a real
Atari application in that window, one which is even cooler... I always
thought one ran apps out of necessity, but you run them because it's cool,
that's a waste of time in my book :-)
>MiNT = what you've got + extra.
>(perfect combination if you ask me)
>
> Some people are getting pissed because:
>Magic = what you use to have - some extra that don't work anymore.
>(otherwise GEMDOS FATAL ERROR)
That's one view....
You still don't won't to understand that in principle I haven't got anything
against extra's. If tomorrow someone codes something that uses MagiC or MiNT
threads, that app will be OS-specific also. What I don't like is the plain
ported stuff, regardless if it runs or not on more then one of the three
OS's. I'm convinced that if more time and effort would be put in those ports,
like for example a GUI, they would be more popular. Let's face it, those
ports are hardly used by anyone, it's always the same small group of people
that knows/uses them and is enthusiastic about them.... are all the others
morons? I don't think so... so there must be another reason, this is 2003, we
all have a mouse attached to our computer, its ment to be used...
Those extra's are not the future or a way foreward for this platform, the
normal day to day apps are... and since these can't be ported because our
hardware lacks the power to run them, the solution is simple if you ask me,
stop wasting energy in those extra's and put that energy towards developing
some real Atari goodies, preferably goodies that run on the three OS's...
Cheers from Belgium
Dennis
Janez Valant
> There are two reasons why I call it crap, the biggest reason which you and
> Lonny like to overlook is that these apps only run on one of three major
> used OS's... and yes the second reason is that I like to use apps with a
> GUI... I don't like apps which are OS-specific, I don't even like MagiC-
> specific apps, luckily there are only a handfull of them (the Iconnect
> clients). It took a while before MagiC developers realised this and were
> told that MagiC-specific apps were not the way to persue on this platform,
> and now it's time someone tells the MiNT-community the same thing, because
> they are making the same mistake (yep, I call it a mistake). If you really
> so worried for the future of this platform, then it should be crystal
> clear that supporting only one OS can only lead to a lot of people turning
> their back on it. Developing & porting apps that only run on one OS, will
> leave a lot of people standing in the cold, and they'll look for a warmer
> place.
Again, again and again u showed yourself as MASTER of twisting and turning
the facts as u like... WHERE did i say developers MUST develop apps only
for MiNT. I said like 100 times, that if application is developed in
accordance to GEM guidelines, it will work in MiNT, Magic and TOS... Even
in post u replied, i mentioned that guys developing MiNT are OS developers,
and to blame them is as stupid as to blame Andreas Kromke why there is no
new Word proccesors and other apps. U again in your manner overlooked quite
big chunk of my message, and answer only parts u can make harmfull. Again:
MiNT developers develop MiNT, they work hard and they work on it to be
ATARI os and stay compatible.. Thus all GEM apps, new ones like Porthos etc
work without ANY troubles, if we forgot on Magic AES problem... And this
clearly show, that MiNT developers CARE bout Atari and feeling, and there
is not a single directive, to guide coders how to code for MiNT. Since to
code for MiNT is totaly equal as coding for Atari... Any language we have
produce working apps, FaceVAlue (builds generic GEM code from RSC files)
apps work like poem. Even more, in MiNT docs, proper GEM coding is
encouraged, and MiNT specific calls are well documented.... Now, u name me
one application (not port) specificaly developed for MiNT? Its fair to
exclude setup apps, like MiNTSetter etc, since those are a mustbe OS
specific, same as Magic INF file editor...
> So yes, I refer to OS-specific apps which on top of that come with no GUI
> as crap... so what? What's in a name? Would you like me to call them in
> future "Apps I rather don't use"? Let's call a horse a horse.... you would
> flame me just the same for not respecting the work of the author and the
> community, the thing is, you don't want to see anything negative written
> about that stuff... Like I said before, you like us all to cheer and be
> gratefull to who ever ported it....sorry Janez, can't to that :-/
Only have one question for you: IS magic a CRAP? Did i EVER call Magic a
crap, or let say Iconnect and Iconnect related apps since they are bonded
to one OS? I didnt. WE didnt... I have no use of those apps, they ARE OS
specific but i still wont call them a crap.. Many arent bad apps at all,
just wrongly designed....
>>Dennis on other hand, use word lame, lamers, crap a LOT.
>>
> Yes I did use them a lot, but that's because you and others here kept
> dishing out a lot of stuff that deserves to be called like that.
Now, u must blame others dont you...
>
>>Also must mention, that Dennis said that those apps (pine etc...) work
>>better on PC anyway so no use to run them on Atari... thats TRUE Atari
>>spirit.
>
> I'm talking about real Atari's here, not clones or a mere 150 CT-60
> powered Falcons... taking that in account do you really advice someone
> with a normal TT or Falcon to run that stuff? Did I say run? Sorry I ment
> crawl....
Dennis u have no idea what u talking about. As i explained in my message,
and u again seems to "overlook" it, i used TT with 4/4 mb ram as my server
to cable modem from 1997/8. I used it as cable modem server via riebl VME
ethernet card and as ip masquarading machine, since my main machine,
Falcon, was pliped to TT. PLIP in MiNT is proper LAN, and since TT acted as
ip masking, i accesed inet directly, speeds up to 150kb/s. Since ethernet
drivers, ip masking, mintnet are daemons, they dont crawl, but they hardly
aree noticed... Same for "crappy" non GUI apps, which do not spend 90% of
cpu power to draw nice icons... runs decently, read that fast... Above that
i ran n.aes but lack of ram kicked in, so i didnt run much things.. And ill
say again, i am proud on all Atari lan and cable inet connection... Beat
any Atari user, who would ditch TT to closet and use a PC as server....
>>All is better as runing Pine on Atari (since it dont run in magic) even
>>buying pc, or Mac etc..
>
> Irony doesn't suit you Janez....
> Let's rephrase that sentence a little :"All is better as running Pine on
> Atari (since it's OS-specific), buy a PC or Mac if you really want to use
> it, otherwise use a Atari-specific program."
> How about that? That's what I really ment... no need to twist words
> around.
No one twist them, now how can Pine be OS specific? From SAME sources it
run on MiNT, Linux, Irix, Macos, BeOS, Windows, and some 10 other OSes. And
no, i wont buy PC or Mac, if i can make a task on Atari. U prolly also
watch jpegs on Atari, or GIFs, u dont just watch PI* or NEO pics and use a
PC for alien formats.... The money saved ill rather spend for buying and
suporting remaining Atari developers (which make apps according to GEM
standards, so they run on any OS)
> We finally found something we agree on.... :-)
> I never said that Airc is crap either, it's not because Lonny doesn't
> think much of my "contributions" that I automatically think the same of
> his. We have an argument at the moment, but that doesn't have anything to
> do with what he created and/or will develop in future.
Really.. U didnt say Airc is crap, u just called him a thief etc.. and
make suggestions bout stealing code etc.. remember that thread?
>>Yes, and that what i realy cant grasp... We mention that we can runs some
>>extra stuff, and suddenly we are traitors, OS lack Atari spirit etc.. And
>>no bad words of those who for SAME stuff bought PC or MAC, or sent Atari
>>in closets or in bin and now use MagicMAC..
>
> You can't grasp it because you still look at this subject with a blurred
> vision... there are people who buy a PC or Mac and forget all about Atari,
> they do come back from time to time here asking how to convert their old
> games to a format which their new platforms understands. These people
> aren't Atari users anymore. Then there are people who love working with
> Atari but some of their favourite applications need power, power which
> their original hardware lacks. If they happen to use a Falcon they could
> have tried to get hold of a CT-60, and having to wait for it 2 years... If
> they happen to have a TT, they don't even have a choice. There are no more
> clones for sale, sure they could wait for the next clone to arrive, that
> one is almost three years in the pipeline... waiting for stuff to appear
> is nice, if you don't need the power today... so these people bought a PC
> or Mac and run their apps on an emulator, an in the mean time they can use
> stuff from that other platform as well, stuff which is not available on
> this platform. As a matter of fact I'm
> writing this post on a Mac running MagiCMac right now... so what?
:))) Your nick should be Twister.... I knoiw u use MagicMAC and did i EVER
use that against you. But u have the balls to use alien hardware, on that
hardware use alien OS/apps BUT spit and insult everyone else who just use
some alien apps (AGAIN: as bonus feature) in order not to leave Ataris in
closets! That is the wrong part, not u or anyone using Mac or PC. But u use
Mac, love Magic (all okay with that), which wasnt updated in years, spit
and insult everyone, no matter if thats MiNT OS developer (who actualy
support Atari a lot) or me, since i dare to used alien apps, to have cable
working on my Ataris, or since i ran pine or ircii (altough i did say i
then stated to use Amail) or anyone else not fitting in your scheme. Thats
pure hatery. U just cant say, or type, that MiNt is a good and definately
an ATARI os, that its developers makes great job, u rather left all such
parts from replys and use parts in which u only can spit on ported apps...
> I've got a 060-clone gathering dust here ever since I bought the Mac.
> MagiCMac is almost 20X faster, and everything that runs under Atari-MagiC
> runs under Mac-MagiC also. So from where I am sitting, I moved forward...
> although the clone is gathering dust, the TT isn't, I use it almost every
> day for doing things that are not processor intensive. And yes, I enjoy
> working with the TT much more, but at a certain point one has to make a
> choice. Unlike many I didn't bought the Mac to move away from this
> platform, my only reason was to run MagiCMac and have a fast Atari, in the
> mean time I discovered some Mac apps which we haven't got, so from time to
> time I use Mac software, but only if there's no alternative. For Internet
> access I still use the IConnect- clients except for browsing, I browse
> with Opera now. There's absolutely no reason for me to start using a Mac
> mailer, news, ftp etc client, they aren't
> any better and don't really offer anything more either... and the same
> can
> be said for a lot of the Atari apps. If tomorrow someone announces a 060
> or PowerPC upgrade for the TT, I'll be standing in front of the line to
> get my hands on one, but until then I'll use MagiCMac.
Use it as u wish... But remember, in my eyes your Atari spirit does not
grow up, since u use Mac and have Ataris in closets... Its totaly your call
> You can port the apps and start them up, but there's no way you'll ever
> see them "run", at best they'll "crawl" on a Atari, clone or powered
> Falcon. And anyone stating different in my book is a dreamer...
Well I am a dreamer then... We talk bout ports here, and there is one
fact u dont know: CLI ports run preety fast, even on plain machine. Even
those with NCURSES GUI. Even more, running them makes a lot less stress on
CPU as GEM/GUI apps. That dont apply to all apps, but Pine, ircii, lynx,
ncftp... runs, not crawl, happy. So i am stating that, and u run some 1st,
then make judgements.... X apps are the one which are harder to run....
> reading the silliest claims here over the years and kept my trap shut just
> like all the others, now I don't keep it shut anymore... though! The best
> you can do is port some small utilities, drivers and apps that don't
> require power from the processor.If you think *that* stuff is going to
> save this platform.... Who are we kidding anyway? A 68060 is a lot faster
> then a 68030 but by today standards it's just as outdated.
Again, u do TWIST my words again: I did say that MiNT is not something u
want to show (in wrong sense) instant saver of Atari as platform. What im
saying, and ill again repeat is this: MiNT with GCC and ability to compile
unix sources (OS independant) allowed ppl to use ethernet and cable modems
years ago. And since MiNT is native Atari OS, that means all GEM/Native
apps can benefit from that. If your ISP cancel dialin and go cable/adsl
only, MiNT can adopt fast. that is done already, but if some of inet
services change specs, maybe to ipv6 or something like that, MiNT will
provide drivers fast, on OS level, transparent to apps. That is not joking
anyone, those are facts (i gave me as an example with my TT). Other example
are unixfs drivers, fat32, amigaFS drivers etc.. Its not important that
virtualy noone can benefit from AmigaFS, important is that its easy to add
such stuff, and that its done on OS level and transparent to apps.
> We gaven't got a browser on this platform that allows entrance, most of
> the sites that require SSL, require JavaScript as well...
I did say that as well, but to adopt to my stuff above: it was done, it is
working and its transparent to CAB. Thats important imho. If u can adopt to
XXX new protocol quicky and on OS level, u dont need to adapt applications,
and in days of lacking developers, thats important....
> at the time that SSL
> was developed for MinTNet it was iilegal to export it out of the States.
> The programmer of IConnect didn't want to break any laws, and that's
> probably the reason why all the other stacks haven't got SSL either but
> IMO this isn't an OS related matter...
Please... So now are US laws quilty that no SSL? As u say "probably",
since u have no clue...
> BTW: I work in a bank.... and I've seen too many horror stories the last
> couple of years. I would **never ever** use e-banking. And no, I will not
> comment further on this issue.... work it out for yourself.
I will, u dont use/need it.. so coder is an idiot to make it... And do i
really need to tell ALL. Its not just ebanking, its also ordering things
via browser etc etc.. i did order few things sucessfully via inet and credt
card....
> Yes let's be fair: what's wrong with FAT32 partitions? these are fast and
> rock solid also, and long names aren't a problem either... and they are
> recognised by PC and Mac, which is great for compatibility reasons.
Yes let's be fair: what' wrong with ext2fs partitons? Or Minixfs
partitons? Or FAT32? Nothing. MiNT has them all. And Inode based ones are
more reliable as FAT table ones...
>>Dont forget, such driver, let say some internet protocol, can be
>>compiled on MiNT easily and its ready to use.. Dont fell on
>>"antipropaganda" that all that is just talk and dreaming, and there is no
>>scsi<>ethernet drivers etc... Those devices are NOT free, and driver
>>sources are NOT available, same as hardware specs for devices, so they
>>cant just be compiled...
>
> Antipropaganda? You've just shown what I'm on about for the last two
> months. Don't expect miracles... and if anyone promises them, call them
> dreamers. The best we can hope for is a bunch of drivers, which will only
> be of use to a *very small minority*. People that develop apps from
> scratch are obviously not part of the MiNT-community, except for people
> improving the OS itself and a bunch of guys porting over some more exotic
> drivers.... that's it.
You are soo right! Problem is that i claim EXACTLY the same for quite some
time u just twisted it every time. There is no Magic/MiNT coders (apart
from actual OS developers) but just coders... I said in previous post
(imagine, u overlooked it) that GGT2 i did run on both OSes and TOS and i
didnt spent a second thinking bout that. Same for any coder... They only
need to think bout OSes when inplementing either ifussion or mintnet stacks
and such things.. And most of them do that in forms of OVLs novadays...
The other bunch of guys port apps and drivers... Whats wrong with that?
they dont port each and every app, but those they may find usefull. Im
surely gratefull they ported NFS, and riebl drivers, inet sockets
> If you wannna see a new word processor, spreadsheet, PDF reader, DTP,
> graphic or even a DVD driver appear, then better put yout trust in the
> gang that caters for the three major used OS's. Oh, but there's one small
> difference ofcourse, these people want to be payed for their work... so
> the choice is easy realy, you all put your money on the dreamers dreaming
> up dreams, or you all are realistic for once and support the side that
> never comes in here, shouting out loud and claiming silly things, which
> never appear....
Dennis, WHY are u doing this, i know u are not SO stupid. Thats EXACTLY
what im babbling here for quite some time and u ignoore... And now repeat
that as own invention. Those coders code ATARI apps. And those apps work on
any ATARI OS, sometimes TOS is excluded. They work on ANY OS because OS
developers made their OSes compatible... Im telling that for long here..
Those coders do not develop MiNT ot Magic apps, just GEM apps. Money has no
issue here, i did and do pay for apps i use. I also want to reward coders
for hard work... And if there is app i dont like/use/need i STILL test it
and usualy send friendly message, i dont call them lamers if they happen to
used Magic AES methods...
And when ull found one item i shouted about and it didnt appear, let me
know...
> So why can't XaAES and Thing be put in a distribution? Someone who wants a
> better setup can still opt to install N.AES and/or Jinnee later on... and
> IMHO an installer should be able to install the whole lot, without people
> having to ask help afterwards.... ever seen the GEMinstaller in action?
> How difficult can it be to write a script for it that covers almost every
> possible setup? hell I even done it....
Well this part is easy. XaAES is now part of official FreeMiNT CVS tree,
but its not good enough yet. Thing is NOT Free, so can't be added as well.
> There's nothing bad about it... I'm not even remotely interested in
> anything coming from the unix world. And from what I've written above it
> should be crystal clear that I don't believe in the fairy tale about that
> stuff helping
What u believe or not is not neccesary to the right thing... U arent
remotely interested in stuff came from Unix world... Okay, so u dont use
Anodyne CD writer software, Aniplayers jpg/mpg etc decoders.. and so on..
> the "scene" at all either. So yep, I DON'T CARE. And please stop with
> that "destructive" tale... that word is used here whenever it suits
> someone. The only thing that will get destroyed eventually is the enormous
> ego of the guy who ported that crap... Why would I or anyone else care for
> something that doesn't interest him?
Thats all tale for you... U think its tale. But i AM offended by many of
your bashings, i repeat bashings, not criticism in proper way. Result is,
that i stopped seeking for problem someone reported for GGT2 on Magic. And
that purely cause of your mouth... But ah, u dont care bout that or the
GGT2, it wont run on Mac anyway, so i guess i "can crawl in pit i crawled
out...."
> E.g: I'm not interested at all in the scene that codes demo's, it's beyond
> me why on earth some people waste valuable time on coding that stuff, if
> tomorow someone codes the *ultimate* demo, fine...
> But you won't hear me cheering, that demo won't help this platform one
> little step further at all, so IMO it'll be useless, a waste of time, not
> necessary, and I'll most likely will refer to it as "crap". But I really
> fail to see how this could be destructive? Someone who creates something,
> no matter what, be it a program, book, music or whatever, should be
> prepared to be critisized, and not all critic is constructive...
There are serious apps, which directly came from demo coders or their
techiques. U dont need to cheer demos if u dont use them, but since u dont
exactly create anything, dont call them crap, since many demos are coding
wonders, and coders lamers etc....
> Now, supposing you would port a nfs driver.... fine, it's probably because
> you needed it, and if a few others can use it so much the better. But when
> you or someone else come in here cheering about it and telling us this is
> the way foreward for this platform, expect to find me on your path... that
> driver might be usefull for some people, but the patform itself won't move
> forward at all with or without that driver.
Thats your view... But if that driver prevent ONE person to migrate from
Atari, the job is done and benefit was done as well. If I will say NFS
driver is Atari saviour etc bla bla, u can disagree, but if ill say its
nice that i can use NFS WITH GEM apps, then dont bitch and call me lamer
and so on. There is HUGE difference...
> It's simple really, look at this and all the other platforms, and see what
> the most used applications are.. that's the stuff which needs to be spewed
> out, if you can port is and it runs at a reasonable speed, so much the
> better, if not then it'll need to be created from scratch. One thing this
> and related threads made painfully clear is that the majority here wants a
> better newsreader, and since the majority wants it, it'll need to be more
> then a CLI running in a GEM window... a GEM newsreader running on the
> three OS's and preferably with the three major used stacks (MiNTNet,
> STiK/STiNG and IConnect) is one of the things I call moving forward...
I agree. But dont bitch MiNT developers if such app dont appear. It only
takes that one write GEM newsreader, Stik compatible. Both OSes will be
happy. But u NEVER bitch on Magic developers (and we know Kromke cant help
there) but only on MiNT developers (what Frank, Draco etc) has to do with
that?
> Not at all.... he after all ****MADE**** it, he didn't port it. And that
> is something completely different. That popcorn baking time utility would
> also run on the three OS's. Unlike some people I never bash Atari software
> or Atari programmers, as long as they cater for the whole platform,
> everything
> is just fine by me... I don't bake popcorn so I don't need it, but it'll
> be an asset for the ever growing catalogue... ever looked at that ported
> stuff catalogue?
Well u want to twist (o suprise) my post. U know VERY well that i on few
ocasions wanted u to differ MiNT developers (guys working on MiNT) and
those who port. Your saying, that u never bashed Atari programmers is just
not true... U know, i know that. But even if people port software, thats
not reason to bash and insult. As i already said, if a port prevents one
user (i can speak that for myself, it did prevent me) from ditching Atari
and went to other platform, it helped the comunity. Again speaking for
myself, i did bought certain Atari internet programm, since i was able to
use cable....
> The fact that something exists on a platform doesn't automatically means
> it's good... Have you ever see and used Word Perfect and MS Word for
> Atari? These
> two are crap also... The number of people using it in general is a good
> way to measure how popular an app is. Just take a look in the Mac and PC
> groups, and see the amazing number of people posting with Pine there for
> yourself.
:)) Well take a look in some Unix groups and count Pine users there. Then
for a comparision, count Outlook or Claris users there.... And then u will
see that many users actualy do use Pine.. Ofcourse, they are prolly morons,
but still, quite a lot of them....
> Still think it's a good point? I think it's a stupid to make
> point... Kobold, Papyrus, Phoenix database, GFA basic etc... are also
> available for the PC, existing on a different platform, doesn't say
> anything about the quality of the software...
Yes i do, as said above: dont expect many unix apps users in PC/Mac groups
and vice versa. If application is used a lot, and Pine is (u need to know
we can run other CLI mailers, not stucked with Pine) there is a development
going. And Pine is developed... Claris/Outlook are apps, which in most
cases adopt the Pine/Unix featires, like IMAP etc, if they have them
> Ofcourse you didn't see me quoting that, I'm not going to reply to
> something I agree on... I don't think that there is one person here that
> doesn't apply selective quoting. If we would all have to reply to posts in
> full, then we would be writing night and day... This and some other
> related threads, take enough of my time as it is. Applying selective
> quoting is not something which I've invented. We all do it....
> You also only reply to bits and pieces of posts that suits you, so we've
> got another thing in common :-)
Well u do reply and use own old arguments, which dont take in
consideration stuff u didnt quote, and u claim u agree on them? If thats
true, start distinguish MiNT developers from porters, and stop distunguish
betwen Magic/MiNT/TOS coders, or platforms... We said and u know that any
proper GEM app run on them.....
> Janez, you really need to read my posts better.... I've repeatedly said
> here that XaAES is a *LOT* better then N.AES, I even gave examples of apps
> not or incorrectly running under N.AES, while being perfect under XaAES.
> So all that moaning, bitching and cursing comes from someone else.... it
> can't come from MagiC fans or MiNT haters either... so you'll better look
> in your own corner to blame a couple of persons.
Bitching does NOT come from Magic fans, it comes from You and Steve,
respectively, some hard words as well. I do read your posts, and u shoud do
mine as well: if n.aes have troubles, more as XaAES then something is
wrong. We all actively folow XaAES, coders of it have N.AES and we all know
N.AES is still a lot better. I did say that, we keep saying that N.AES is
very stable, u dont reckognize that. I cant help if u think im either lying
or hyping N.AES....
> You are number three on the list so far who would love to hear me make
> some comments on Highwire... so far, I can only say this about it: I have
> a much better offline browser here and since I can't go online with it (no
> Iconnect support), the actual version is rather useless for me... But I do
> disagree completely about "one of the good things with open projects",
> give me just *one* example of an open project that is now better then it's
> equivalent, be it shareware or commercial...
I dont want to hear comments. I want u to recognize a chance to sent
comments and suggestions (not bitching) to HW developers. Instead of
monaing about no Iconnect support, be usefull, talk with them. If Iconnect
is NOT open to others, then rather blame Iconnect authors. U may ask them
if they can make them open. Or u may use iffusion, and it will be ok, since
Highwire is Stik compatible... Or its really easier to declare it usefull
and crap?
Again u twisted: i dont mean open projects are necessary better (i know
some in non atari domain|) but being open is also a chance u contribute,
and get authors to make it better for u: try to get them iconnect stack
specs, or suggest tabbed browsing etc...
> You guys want everything to become open projects the problem however is
> that hardly anyone is capable of bringing it to a good end... What
> happened to QED since it's an open project? What happened to Chagall?
> etc...
We guys? HW is not open since WE (who is we?) wanted to be open. It
happened its open. And it staring to look good. I dont care if new product
is open or not, only what im care is is there someone work something. I
bought and still will my share of apps. And i keep sending bug reports or
suggestions. Better as bitching. And opposite way is: u seems to dislike
any open stuff, u are covinced that ppl who charge are better coders...
> Read the posts again.... almost all these statements were made by MiNT
> users, hell you even said it yourself...
> MagiC is a little faster but it's not like we're talking factor 2X here,
> what I also remember from these posts it that the impression was given
> that MagiC is only usable on lowerend machines. Why would only MiNT
> benefit from running on a 68060? Remember MagiC-Milan? Also remember that
> the Milan came pre-installed with MiNT+N.AES+Thing? Ever thought why on
> earth some 50% of the users payed $200 extra for running a different OS?
No, i said Magic is a GEM (as diamond, good stuff) on low end machines.
Regardiong 060: magic needs to be patched so it can work on 060, but it
dont use 060 specific commands. MiNT can be compiled to use them, that is
an advantage. Ofcourse ppl payed usd200, they like OS, they are used to it,
i would do the same, if Milan would come with Magoc...
> People recognise crap when they see it... The Milan was a MiNT machine....
> it's dead, which only goes to show ;-)
Uh Dennis, how come it be dead, if 50% of milan users went to Magic?
Atleast 50% of Milan could be undead then... But this statement is exactly
what i meant by your spice... So MiNT killed Milan, okay. I give up, u dont
need to reply, i just refuse to talk on this level and answer such
stupidty. u may declare u won or whatewer u want, im off with you.. Enjoy
your Mac, call Atari users loosers and live happy....
lp
s...@atari.org wrote on 8/24/03 5:05 PM:
> Really.. U didnt say Airc is crap, u just called him a thief etc.. and
> make suggestions bout stealing code etc.. remember that thread?
Actually that was Steeve who started that, not Dennis.
>>> Yes, and that what i realy cant grasp... We mention that we can runs some
>>> extra stuff, and suddenly we are traitors, OS lack Atari spirit etc.. And
>>> no bad words of those who for SAME stuff bought PC or MAC, or sent Atari
>>> in closets or in bin and now use MagicMAC..
>>
>> You can't grasp it because you still look at this subject with a blurred
>> vision... there are people who buy a PC or Mac and forget all about Atari,
>> they do come back from time to time here asking how to convert their old
>> games to a format which their new platforms understands. These people
>> aren't Atari users anymore. Then there are people who love working with
>> Atari but some of their favourite applications need power, power which
>> their original hardware lacks. If they happen to use a Falcon they could
>> have tried to get hold of a CT-60, and having to wait for it 2 years... If
>> they happen to have a TT, they don't even have a choice. There are no more
>> clones for sale, sure they could wait for the next clone to arrive, that
>> one is almost three years in the pipeline... waiting for stuff to appear
>> is nice, if you don't need the power today... so these people bought a PC
>> or Mac and run their apps on an emulator, an in the mean time they can use
>> stuff from that other platform as well, stuff which is not available on
>> this platform. As a matter of fact I'm
>> writing this post on a Mac running MagiCMac right now... so what?
Ok, we are getting somewhere now. You are stuck because you can't run
MiNT under magicmac. But again that is the path you took, yet you project
your frustration on others who can do more.
>> I've got a 060-clone gathering dust here ever since I bought the Mac.
>> MagiCMac is almost 20X faster, and everything that runs under Atari-MagiC
>> runs under Mac-MagiC also. So from where I am sitting, I moved forward...
>> although the clone is gathering dust, the TT isn't, I use it almost every
>> day for doing things that are not processor intensive. And yes, I enjoy
>> working with the TT much more, but at a certain point one has to make a
>> choice. Unlike many I didn't bought the Mac to move away from this
>> platform, my only reason was to run MagiCMac and have a fast Atari, in the
>> mean time I discovered some Mac apps which we haven't got, so from time to
>> time I use Mac software, but only if there's no alternative. For Internet
>> access I still use the IConnect- clients except for browsing, I browse
>> with Opera now. There's absolutely no reason for me to start using a Mac
>> mailer, news, ftp etc client, they aren't
>> any better and don't really offer anything more either... and the same
>> can
>> be said for a lot of the Atari apps. If tomorrow someone announces a 060
>> or PowerPC upgrade for the TT, I'll be standing in front of the line to
>> get my hands on one, but until then I'll use MagiCMac.
Why not dust off the clone and sell it to someone who wishes to remain
true to the platform, someone who doesn't want to use a mere emulator.
Take the money and get a faster mac.
> Use it as u wish... But remember, in my eyes your Atari spirit does not
> grow up, since u use Mac and have Ataris in closets... Its totaly your call
>> You can port the apps and start them up, but there's no way you'll ever
>> see them "run", at best they'll "crawl" on a Atari, clone or powered
>> Falcon. And anyone stating different in my book is a dreamer...
These things do not crawl on clones. You have become so hook on the
magicmac speed there's no turning back now. See, I never questioned
your equipment before either, look through your so called massive msg
archive. I question it now, I don't take emulator users serious.
All your comments about speed just went out the window. There's no
reference point to compare speed, as magicmac isn't really qualified as an
Atari. It's merely a 68k emulator, which has a poor design as well, since
it forces an OS apon you that you cannot swap out.
I have magicmac for both os9 full version, osx demo. I also have a
mac of course, fairly new one I might add. However, I will not and I
do not use magicmac for anything but looking at HYP files. I have found
it's handy for that when I run across one on the web. Outside of that
it's of no use to me. I am not interested in becoming an emulator user.
>> Still think it's a good point? I think it's a stupid to make
>> point... Kobold, Papyrus, Phoenix database, GFA basic etc... are also
>> available for the PC, existing on a different platform, doesn't say
>> anything about the quality of the software...
GFA-Basic is effectively dead on the PC. Case anyone wonders. ;-)
>> People recognise crap when they see it... The Milan was a MiNT machine....
>> it's dead, which only goes to show ;-)
Both the Milan and Hades have magic versions available, that is a remark
from someone who uses a mac exclusively. Now that I know you are simply
a mac user, I care even less what you say. So mint and mint ports don't
meet your emulators requirements. To bad for you.
So what's your real grip with me, now that I know you are a mac user,
are you upset that aIRC don't run under your emulator?
--
FreeMiNT http://sparemint.atariforge.net/sparemint/ [The Future is now!]
Team Atari http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/stats/team/team_21046.html
L. Pursell http://www.q1.net/~atari/ [AtarIRC, GFA-Basic, Hades060, 4Sale]
lp
8/24/03 6:24 PM:
> in article ZN92b.1535$2B6.3...@news.siol.net, Janez Valant at
> s...@atari.org wrote on 8/24/03 5:05 PM:
>
>> Really.. U didnt say Airc is crap, u just called him a thief etc.. and
>> make suggestions bout stealing code etc.. remember that thread?
>
> Actually that was Steeve who started that, not Dennis.
Let me also say even though I don't find anything Steeve says of much
value, since his posts tend to contain foul language, he is however
a genuine Atari user, unlike Dennis and his emulator.
Cheers to you Steeve, nice pic on the myatari site!
Frederic Fouche
> >What emailer on atari (not ported) supports IMAP? (yes I use that)
> >Please do some research before you claim something to be crap.
>
> AFAIK none... supporting IMAP or not doesn't change one thing to the fact
> that it's crap on *THIS* platform. And since there are hardly any Pine users
> here I presume that IMAP is not an important issue for most of us...
Once again,
It is crap because it has features that are not relevant to Dennis.
Who the F cares?
Dear Dennis, you are a moron. Sorry to be the one telling you.
> >Besides, because it is text based (ncurses), i can check my email,
> >newsgroups from anywhere (from work for example) as long as I can telnet,
> >or ssh to my machine, like if I was at home.
> >How do you do that on magic?
> >You probably don't care anyway.
>
> I don't need to.... I can check my mail anywhere in the world, all I need is
> a computer and an internet connection. I can even check it on my cell phone,
> I can check it on a web based server also. You're example would have been an
> issue a couple of years ago, today however just like Telnet it's superseded.
oh please tell me how you check your mailbox (old messages included) from
your POP3 server? web based? your ISP provides this?
It's very nice of them to let you use their linux servers but it is crap
as you put it, as I don't need it myself. (a Dennism)
> >Oh, and btw, if pine was such crap, why does it even exist on windows?
> >Or even macosx!!!
> >Don't they have good mailer as well?
> >The entire must be mad.
>
> Since when it that a sign of quality? Take a peek in a Mac or PC newsgroup to
> see how may people post with Pine... for the record, I don't care about what
> runs and is available on other platforms. Pine on this platform is crap, and
> there are several good alternatives available...
Stop contradicting yourself, this is annoying.
here you say, numbers don't speak for quality. In another post you say
that because it is used a lot, it is a sign of quality. Make up your mind
will you?
> >Do you know how cool it is to have papyrus, or calamus or whatever Atari
> >GEM application running and in another window having some unix
> >application?
>
> I don't care if it's cool or not. For the same money you can open a real
> Atari application in that window, one which is even cooler... I always
> thought one ran apps out of necessity, but you run them because it's cool,
> that's a waste of time in my book :-)
What a lame "comeback". You know exactly what i meant, is that all you
could come up with? you're running dry Dennis.
> >MiNT = what you've got + extra.
> >(perfect combination if you ask me)
> >
> > Some people are getting pissed because:
> >Magic = what you use to have - some extra that don't work anymore.
> >(otherwise GEMDOS FATAL ERROR)
>
> That's one view....
> You still don't won't to understand that in principle I haven't got anything
> against extra's. If tomorrow someone codes something that uses MagiC or MiNT
you totally do have somethin against extras.
Get OVER IT.
With MiNT you can run all your fancy MOUSE/16bit color icons GUI GEM
application. PLUS if you felt like it, run other EXTRA programs,
applications that do not exist on atari. (did I mention for free as well?)
> threads, that app will be OS-specific also. What I don't like is the plain
> ported stuff, regardless if it runs or not on more then one of the three
> OS's. I'm convinced that if more time and effort would be put in those ports,
don't like it?
Who the hell cares if you don't like it, get over it, don't use it, don't
be a party pooper.
> like for example a GUI, they would be more popular. Let's face it, those
> ports are hardly used by anyone, it's always the same small group of people
> that knows/uses them and is enthusiastic about them.... are all the others
> morons? I don't think so... so there must be another reason, this is 2003, we
> all have a mouse attached to our computer, its ment to be used...
Are you retarded or stupid?
I am confused now, the mouse is a vital part of MiNT, like it or not.
MiNT users, guess what, run an AES as WELL! :)
The only people that would have to disable the GUI to do anything
productive would be the ones with stf with 1 meg of memory.
> Those extra's are not the future or a way foreward for this platform, the
> normal day to day apps are... and since these can't be ported because our
> hardware lacks the power to run them, the solution is simple if you ask me,
> stop wasting energy in those extra's and put that energy towards developing
> some real Atari goodies, preferably goodies that run on the three OS's...
Allelujia, behold..
Dennis has spoken..
ooooooooooh
aaaaaaaaaah
whatever dennis.
lp
>> Those extra's are not the future or a way foreward for this platform, the
>> normal day to day apps are... and since these can't be ported because our
>> hardware lacks the power to run them, the solution is simple if you ask me,
>> stop wasting energy in those extra's and put that energy towards developing
>> some real Atari goodies, preferably goodies that run on the three OS's...
And at the same time you post that from your magicmac setup. You have a
clone in the closet that you think is to slow to use. Actions speak louder
than words, you are saying one thing and doing another. If all the real
machines are as slow as you state, there won't be anymore gem apps. Why
code a bunch of slow sluggish gem apps? You are not making any sense the
longer this goes on. You just keep digging a deeper hole.
There basically is no Atari market, it's pretty much all users doing their
own thing. It's going to gravitate to open source and ports, and until you
fully come to grips with that you are going to sound like a nut case.
Thanks to you, since you wouldn't just drop it, we all now know the status
of magic, and it's more or less not going anywhere. When you classify stuff
as crap you are doing far more damage than I ever will. Just stating stuff
is crap is destructive. Why not just say you prefer not to use this or
that. It goes over a lot better and doesn't create and bad feelings. A lot
of people have tried to explain the subtleness of opinions, but you seem to
prefer making it more personal in nature.
The flipside of this is that someone so hopefully narrow minded such as
yourself won't ever realize the error in their ways.
Anyone reading this stuff can see the obvious, you have one side that
just deems everything of no interest as crap. The the other side simply
tries to educate and correct the inaccurate comments, especially since
they are coming from people who don't even use the stuff at all.
Steve Sweet
"Janez Valant"
> Really.. U didnt say Airc is crap, u just called him a thief etc.. and
> make suggestions bout stealing code etc.. remember that thread?
You've got a borfed up memory then, it was me that added that slant after he
came in here and publicly announced he stole software, what the nice word
for that pastime!!.
> :))) Your nick should be Twister....
And yours should be dickhead since when your mouth opens little tadpoles
flow out.
--
Regards Steve
You've not seen a worried sheep...
...until you've seen a sheep worried by me!!
Steve Sweet
Killfile Kenny
Hello Lonny
> > Really.. U didn't say Airc is crap, u just called him a thief etc.. and
> > make suggestions bout stealing code etc.. remember that thread?
>
> Actually that was Steeve who started that, not Dennis.
You started that when you publicly advocated theft of other peoples code, i
added the lemon twist and umbrella and the nice name.
Steve Sweet
> >> Really.. U didnt say Airc is crap, u just called him a thief etc.. and
> >> make suggestions bout stealing code etc.. remember that thread?
> >
> > Actually that was Steeve who started that, not Dennis.
>
> Let me also say even though I don't find anything Steeve says of much
> value, since his posts tend to contain foul language, he is however
> a genuine Atari user, unlike Dennis and his emulator.
>
> Cheers to you Steeve, nice pic on the myatari site!
Why thank you, I'm the fat barstard in the top pic for anyone else who's
interested.
Janez Valant
Hi lp,
> Actually that was Steeve who started that, not Dennis.
Okay, But Dennis realy feel to correct us the all time and didnt correct
Steve's claims either....
>>> I've got a 060-clone gathering dust here ever since I bought the Mac.
>>> MagiCMac is almost 20X faster, and everything that runs under
>>> Atari-MagiC runs under Mac-MagiC also. So from where I am sitting, I
>>> moved forward... although the clone is gathering dust, the TT isn't, I
>>> use it almost every day for doing things that are not processor
>>> intensive. And yes, I enjoy working with the TT much more, but at a
>>> certain point one has to make a choice. Unlike many I didn't bought the
>>> Mac to move away from this platform, my only reason was to run MagiCMac
>>> and have a fast Atari, in the mean time I discovered some Mac apps which
>>> we haven't got, so from time to time I use Mac software, but only if
>>> there's no alternative. For Internet access I still use the IConnect-
>>> clients except for browsing, I browse with Opera now.
And Iconnect on MagicMAC uses underlying MACs inet stack and daemons. So
Dennis actualy say that using MagicMAC and use MAC OS resources is good, he
even even feel proud, but adopting any of such resources or drivers to
Atari is bad and killing the scene... There is just something wrong with
that claim... And whats wrong is MiNT hatery: if Magic is run on MAC is
good, if Magic use and rely on FOREIGN OS is good, if Magic also use
FOREIGN OS resources and drivers is also good, but to use ONLY small parts
(drivers) of FOREIGN resources on NATIVE OS is BAD! As long OS is called
MiNT and not Magic.. Thats whole point.. I dont see other in Mac/Magic user
blame MiNT and developers.....
>>> be said for a lot of the Atari apps. If tomorrow someone announces a
>>> 060 or PowerPC upgrade for the TT, I'll be standing in front of the line
>>> to get my hands on one, but until then I'll use MagiCMac.
And i dont believe that. 060 clone gathering dust since Mac is faster? I
dont see how much quicker if at all TT will be ,so it wont beat Mac in
speed....
> I have magicmac for both os9 full version, osx demo. I also have a
> mac of course, fairly new one I might add. However, I will not and I
> do not use magicmac for anything but looking at HYP files. I have found
> it's handy for that when I run across one on the web. Outside of that
> it's of no use to me. I am not interested in becoming an emulator user.
I have 2 Mac's none latest spec. I use then with Mac apps and also enjoy
some games. Have MagicMAC on laptop, but i dont use it at all. For me point
of using Mac are Mac aps and os. I have 35+ machines and only on PC i have
installed "foreign" OS. All other are used with native software. Needless
to say, that MagicMAC, or other "loosy" emulators, only are GEM compatible.
Atari feeling is soo much more as GEM only, its non GEM apps, games,
trackers, tos apps, there is a lot! And all that spirit is efectively
killed by MagicMAC (not Magic, if anyone will feel urge to mix that!!)
And i im perfectly aware, that all that cant be preserved, im aware that
GEM apps etc benefit most from fast machines. But i just wont accept
babbling about killing Atari spirit from MagicMAC/PC etc users.. I know
many MagicMAC users, clone users.. and VERY VERY litle of then actualy
babble about killing the spirit with MiNT or with fact we use Ataris still.
lp
s...@atari.org wrote on 8/25/03 1:57 PM:
> And Iconnect on MagicMAC uses underlying MACs inet stack and daemons. So
> Dennis actualy say that using MagicMAC and use MAC OS resources is good, he
> even even feel proud, but adopting any of such resources or drivers to
> Atari is bad and killing the scene... There is just something wrong with
> that claim... And whats wrong is MiNT hatery: if Magic is run on MAC is
> good, if Magic use and rely on FOREIGN OS is good, if Magic also use
> FOREIGN OS resources and drivers is also good, but to use ONLY small parts
> (drivers) of FOREIGN resources on NATIVE OS is BAD! As long OS is called
> MiNT and not Magic.. Thats whole point.. I dont see other in Mac/Magic user
> blame MiNT and developers.....
He makes no sense whatsoever. He uses his TT for non-intensive stuff
yet has a clone unused collecting dust. Main machine is magicmac,
one thing is magic already is non-standard, then to use it on a
mac emulator, then use that to judge what the rest of us do.
On top of that, comments about all machines and clones being to slow
to use. One can only assume he also thinks everybody that just
got their ct60 must be an idiot to buy such a slow thing.
I don't care if someone does contribute to the platform, it don't
automatically exclude someone from being a jerk. So far I've gathered
that demos, games, unix ports, and anything missing a gem front end is
complete crap and worthless to the platform. What I see is someone with an
agenda, with the sole purpose of slandering mint. Regardless of his
comments, which I now think are lies, he does indeed hate mint. But the
problem is the same, magic is in dev limbo, mint is not.
I am quite aware that other magic users do not think this way, in fact
Dennis is way out in left field. Anyone that would take this extreme
position that Dennis has displayed, isn't dealing with a full deck.
Janez Valant
Hi Lonny,
> I am quite aware that other magic users do not think this way, in fact
> Dennis is way out in left field. Anyone that would take this extreme
> position that Dennis has displayed, isn't dealing with a full deck.
I agree. Imho most Magic users and developers are tolerant. Maybe tolerant
is wrong word, i actualy dont tolerate Magic, im happy it exist! Its just
my bad english... Magic is their choice, i wont question their choices and
i respect that. I know many Magic owners, i am one of them actualy, and i
really dont argue with them. I even seek for some Magic related tool and
problem solutions for pals of mine, who havent inet acces (i do that mainly
via email and in irc tho...). I also wont question their application
choices. If thats Jinnee, which is Macos wannabee, or Emailer (not to
original either) thats okay with me, those apps are not bad.
And to be clear: i dont have any troubles with MagicMAC/PC users. Or clone
users. We have different views on clone/atari thing, but i doubt our
arguing ever went overboard or became insulting... Since i didnt ever heard
u say that demo coders are lamers, or dreamers or wasting time.. And u wont
hear me saying Hades is crap, Milan developers are morons.. I will and did
say, Milan is for me boring machine, it lack those aspect of Atari feeling
i hapen to love. Same for MagicMAC: i just love nongem etc things a lot, so
GEM only clone is not to nice option for me, but its still an option! And a
lot beter one as PC/Mac and emulators still...
I will also use this oportunity for excuse if i accidentaly or in anger
insult some of Magic users/developers. It was unintentional and i am sorry
for that!! (i know we could say that MiNT etc is super easy to install etc,
and it may in heat sound like that ppl who didnt succed 1st time, etc, are
stupid.. That is NOT true! I know how odd Unix or CLI may be to GUI only
user, i learnt that myself and learnt that hard way: with Watchtower1 linux
distribution)
Janez
Dennis Vermeire
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 18:32:03 -0400
>Let me also say even though I don't find anything Steeve says of much
>value, since his posts tend to contain foul language, he is however
>a genuine Atari user, unlike Dennis and his emulator.
First of all, let me say that you are pathetic...
I knew it would eventually happen, and it did. When I killfile someone
I'll never reply to his posts knowing that I'll get to see only bits and
pieces of selected quoted text in related posts from that person...
And that's exactly what you've been replying to, you moron !!!
If you would have read my post, you would have known the whole story, so
sit on it, you idiot...
My TT runs 24Hrs a day, it's been running non stop for almost two years
now, I don't need to receive lessons from someone using a clone, I've
explained why I've put my clone in the closet and why it'll remain
there. You wouldn't recognise a genuine Atari user if you bumped into
one... just like your Mac, your clone is a machine without a soul, and I
can make this statement, because I speak from experience. Ain't it funny
how the kettle tells the pot he's black? Tell us Lonny, which genuine
Atari computer you're using besides that fake Hades, and it is a fake, a
patched TOS on a motherboard does't turn a computer automatically into a
genuine Atari.
You've really made my day :-)
Thanks
Cheers from Belgium
Dennis
Dennis Vermeire
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 23:05:37 +0200
Hi,
>Again, again and again u showed yourself as MASTER of twisting and turning
>the facts as u like... WHERE did i say developers MUST develop apps only
>for MiNT. I said like 100 times, that if application is developed in
>accordance to GEM guidelines, it will work in MiNT, Magic and TOS...
I know you've said it a 100 times... and I've asked you a hundred times to
name me the apps, I'm still waiting BTW. I can only conclude that there are
no MiNT users developing apps which run in accordance to the GEM guidelines,
but you'll call that twisting words around ofcourse... So let's one straight
question, and please reply to it in the same manner. What apps have been
developed by MINT users/coders/developers that run on the three OS's? And I
said apps, not drivers or utilities....
>and to blame them is as stupid as to blame Andreas Kromke why there is no
>new Word proccesors and other apps.
There is a new word processor, and it's better and faster then anything
you've ever seen on this platform...
>Only have one question for you: IS magic a CRAP? Did i EVER call Magic a
>crap, or let say Iconnect and Iconnect related apps since they are bonded
>to one OS? I didnt. WE didnt... I have no use of those apps, they ARE OS
>specific but i still wont call them a crap.. Many arent bad apps at all,
>just wrongly designed....
True you didn't, but then you are the odd one out.
Iconnect and the Iconnect clients are OS-specific, just like MinTNeT and the
MinTNet clients are OS-specific, but apart from the Iconnect issue I really
don't know any other MagiC-specific apps... do you?
Time and time again the MagiC-specific apps are slapped in my face, but when
I ask to name a couple from that *lot* all you guys can come up with are the
IConnect clients....
>No one twist them, now how can Pine be OS specific? From SAME sources it
>run on MiNT, Linux, Irix, Macos, BeOS, Windows, and some 10 other OSes. And
>no, i wont buy PC or Mac, if i can make a task on Atari. U prolly also
>watch jpegs on Atari, or GIFs, u dont just watch PI* or NEO pics and use a
>PC for alien formats.... The money saved ill rather spend for buying and
>suporting remaining Atari developers (which make apps according to GEM
>standards, so they run on any OS)
Ofcourse you twist words.... I'm talking about OS-specific apps on this
platform and you give me platform platform specific apps. I don't give a damn
on how many platforms an app runs. This is the Atari platform, and that's the
plaform we're discussing here... an app only running on one of the three
major used OS's doesn't really deserve to be called "Atari program" if
you ask me...
>Really.. U didnt say Airc is crap, u just called him a thief etc.. and
>make suggestions bout stealing code etc.. remember that thread?
No I don't remember that thread.... I didn't partcipate in it.
I've asked Lonny and ozk to produce or quote the reference number of the
post, and now I'm asking you... you're number 3 now who accuses me... I've
also been accused of making fun of your mother while being very sick, ever
remember me making such a statement?
>:))) Your nick should be Twister.... I knoiw u use MagicMAC and did i EVER
>use that against you. But u have the balls to use alien hardware, on that
>hardware use alien OS/apps BUT spit and insult everyone else who just use
>some alien apps (AGAIN: as bonus feature) in order not to leave Ataris in
>closets!
I use MagiCMac on the Mac and MagiC on the TT. Sometimes I use the TT to post
here, other times the Mac... it depends on what machine I happen to be busy.
The TT runs night and day, it's always available when I need it, and take it
from me Janez, it's still being used very intensively...
What I ment to explain was that even if someone has a Mac or PC, there's no
need to start using specific stuff to post or mail here. The Atari software
is capable, very capable if it comes down to it. People using Entourage on a
Mac to post here, are the ones with the balls....
For the record: there are no Atari's in closets here, the only computer that
is gathering dust in a closet is the clone, and that clone is not a real
Atari anyway, because just like the Mac it has no "soul".
>But u use Mac, love Magic (all okay with that), which wasnt updated in
>years, spit and insult everyone, no matter if thats MiNT OS developer
The English MagiC was updated february 2003, when was the last MiNT update
again.... gee, how time fies...
>(who actualy support Atari a lot) or me, since i dare to used alien apps, to
>have cable working on my Ataris, or since i ran pine or ircii (altough i did
>say i then stated to use Amail) or anyone else not fitting in your scheme.
>Thats pure hatery. U just cant say, or type, that MiNt is a good and
>definately an ATARI os, that its developers makes great job, u rather left
>all such parts from replys and use parts in which u only can spit on ported
>apps...
I've written it time and time again, but you don't want to read it.... MiNT
is OK, it's the crap that's being produced for it that is not OK...
>Use it as u wish... But remember, in my eyes your Atari spirit does not
>grow up, since u use Mac and have Ataris in closets... Its totaly your call
Are you deaf? The only computer in the closet is the clone. And I don't care
if all the clone users now join in also: a clone is not an Atari....
>> You can port the apps and start them up, but there's no way you'll ever
>> see them "run", at best they'll "crawl" on a Atari, clone or powered
>> Falcon. And anyone stating different in my book is a dreamer...
>
>Well I am a dreamer then... We talk bout ports here, and there is one
>fact u dont know: CLI ports run preety fast, even on plain machine. Even
>those with NCURSES GUI. Even more, running them makes a lot less stress on
>CPU as GEM/GUI apps. That dont apply to all apps, but Pine, ircii, lynx,
>ncftp... runs, not crawl, happy. So i am stating that, and u run some 1st,
>then make judgements.... X apps are the one which are harder to run....
This is like an old cracked record running. I'm talking about apps that the
average user needs, and here you are dishing out the same stuff again. Why
didn't you put Ghostscript in that list? And when can we see an office suit
or parts of it being ported, according to your logic, it should run smoother
then what we've been using up until now.... like I said: keep on dreaming :-)
>If your ISP cancel dialin and go cable/adsl only, MiNT can adopt fast. that
>is done already, but if some of inet services change specs, maybe to ipv6 or
>something like that, MiNT will provide drivers fast, on OS level,transparent
>to apps. That is not joking anyone, those are facts (i gave me as an example
>with my TT). Other example are unixfs drivers, fat32, amigaFS drivers etc..
>Its not important that virtualy noone can benefit from AmigaFS, important is
>that its easy to add such stuff, and that its done on OS level and
>transparent to apps.
We have a conflicting view on this issue, we can discuss it for another ten
years, we'll never see eye on eye on this. For you the OS is the most
important factor, for me it's the apps that run on that OS that are the main
factor. You may have the most advanced and stable OS in the world, without
apps taking advantage/showing it off, then in reality you've got nothing.
>>at the time that SSL
>>was developed for MinTNet it was iilegal to export it out of the States.
>>The programmer of IConnect didn't want to break any laws, and that's
>>probably the reason why all the other stacks haven't got SSL either but
>>IMO this isn't an OS related matter...
>
>Please... So now are US laws quilty that no SSL? As u say "probably",
>since u have no clue...
I know for certain about Iconnect that this was the reason, I wrote probably
for the other stacks, because I indeed have no clue...
but applying a little logic goes far...
>>BTW: I work in a bank.... and I've seen too many horror stories the last
>>couple of years. I would **never ever** use e-banking. And no, I will not
>>comment further on this issue.... work it out for yourself.
>
>I will, u dont use/need it.. so coder is an idiot to make it... And do i
>really need to tell ALL. Its not just ebanking, its also ordering things
>via browser etc etc.. i did order few things sucessfully via inet and credt
>card....
Who said I don't need it? I said that I would never ever use it. But there's
a difference between e-banking and paying/ordering goods online. I'm not
allowed to make public comments on e-banking related stuff (non disclosure-
agreement), but I've ordered a lot of stuff with CAB also, without needing
SSL and Java applets. If a site demands this, then I just move on to another
one, there's enough competition out there. And I haven't met a dealer yet who
didn't want to sell his goods if I ordered them by email...
>Yes let's be fair: what' wrong with ext2fs partitons? Or Minixfs
>partitons? Or FAT32? Nothing. MiNT has them all. And Inode based ones are
>more reliable as FAT table ones...
There's nothing wrong with ext2fs partitions, did I say there was something
wrong? I just added FAT32 because you overlooked it...
>Dennis, WHY are u doing this, i know u are not SO stupid. Thats EXACTLY
>what im babbling here for quite some time and u ignoore... And now repeat
>that as own invention. Those coders code ATARI apps. And those apps work on
>any ATARI OS, sometimes TOS is excluded. They work on ANY OS because OS
>developers made their OSes compatible... Im telling that for long here..
We might be "babbling" about the same thing but we have conflicting views on
the issue :-)
>Those coders do not develop MiNT ot Magic apps, just GEM apps. Money has no
>issue here, i did and do pay for apps i use. I also want to reward coders
>for hard work... And if there is app i dont like/use/need i STILL test it
>and usualy send friendly message, i dont call them lamers if they happen to
>used Magic AES methods...
Fine, I've already asked to name a couple of these apps... and I'm honestly
not doing this on purpose: I just don't know and never heard of these apps
that are coded by people using MiNT as basic OS. I know it sounds silly but
it's like nothing ever appears from that corner of the world... not the kind
of apps that you mentioned, if we're talking about CLI or OS-specific stuff
then it's different of course.
>Well this part is easy. XaAES is now part of official FreeMiNT CVS tree,
>but its not good enough yet. Thing is NOT Free, so can't be added as well.
Yep, Thing is shareware, I have no clue why this is an issue so I'm not going
to comment on it. But be realistic, how can you claim an easy all in install
when the package contains no desktop?
>> There's nothing bad about it... I'm not even remotely interested in
>> anything coming from the unix world. And from what I've written above it
>> should be crystal clear that I don't believe in the fairy tale about that
>> stuff helping
>
>What u believe or not is not neccesary to the right thing... U arent
>remotely interested in stuff came from Unix world... Okay, so u dont use
>Anodyne CD writer software, Aniplayers jpg/mpg etc decoders.. and so on..
True... I use CD Recorder Pro from SoundPool, and I don't use Aniplayer at
all, Photoline depacks jpg's much faster, and as for mpg... on the TT these
are played at 3 fps, on the clone it used to be in slow motion, so I watch
mpg's on the Mac.
>Thats all tale for you... U think its tale. But i AM offended by many of
>your bashings, i repeat bashings, not criticism in proper way. Result is,
>that i stopped seeking for problem someone reported for GGT2 on Magic. And
>that purely cause of your mouth... But ah, u dont care bout that or the
>GGT2, it wont run on Mac anyway, so i guess i "can crawl in pit i crawled
>out...."
Well Janez, that a poor attitude. If every film director, song writer or
novel writer would pack it in because their efforts are being critisized then
their wouldn't be much left anymore... As for GGT2, I don't even have a clue
what it is, so I'm pretty sure that I've never commented on it... if it's
been bashed or critisized, it wasn't me (for once).
>There are serious apps, which directly came from demo coders or their
>techiques. U dont need to cheer demos if u dont use them, but since u dont
>exactly create anything, dont call them crap, since many demos are coding
>wonders, and coders lamers etc....
I create a lot of noise.... and I mess around in others their work, so don't
say I'm not creative. :-)
>I dont want to hear comments. I want u to recognize a chance to sent
>comments and suggestions (not bitching) to HW developers. Instead of
>monaing about no Iconnect support, be usefull, talk with them. If Iconnect
>is NOT open to others, then rather blame Iconnect authors. U may ask them
>if they can make them open. Or u may use iffusion, and it will be ok, since
>Highwire is Stik compatible... Or its really easier to declare it usefull
>and crap?
IIRC it was claimed that HW would be a replacement for CAB?
When it's finished I expect to see a program that is better then CAB, better
means more stable, html 4.0 compliant, etc... but I do expect it to have at
least the same features as CAB also. One of the nice things about CAB is that
it can be used with almost any stack, the fact that I can use Ifusion to go
online with it, is not a valid point. This program is still in beta, so I
give it the benefit of doubt, that's also the reason I don't "bitch" about
it, but if the final version doesn't support Iconnect then I'll put that as a
negative point in my book. As a matter of fact, for me it might be a reason
not to use it at all. And I'm not the only Iconnect user in the world. If you
ever used Ifusion then you should know that it slows the whole lot down quite
a bit.... that doesn't matter much for stuff like email or newsgroups, for a
browser however it's different.
>Better as bitching. And opposite way is: u seems to dislike
>any open stuff, u are covinced that ppl who charge are better coders...
I'm convinced that ppl who charge are more dedicated, "better" is not the
exact phrasing, the "chargers" have an incentive to code, even if they are
not in the mood or it's beautifull weather outside. I don't really dislike
open stuff, but so far I haven't seen much coming from that corner which
should change my views on it, in general it goes like this: something is
declared open source, some people are rumoured to be working on it, and
that's it. I gave you QED and Chagall as two examples, but you've choosen
conveniently to overlook those. I gave these two examples because I was so
stupid to "contribute" to these, in amid two projects which took all our
attention, Peter and me took the time to mail over sources, translations,
docs etc to the guys working on Chagall, I had to literally turn the place
here up side down to find all that stuff back. I was even stupid enough to
edit and translate large parts of it to make it easier for them to grasp, and
what have we got to show for it ? peanuts....
It's not the first time this has happened, so yes I bitch at the open stuff
corner. I've never experienced anything like this with coders who "charge",
they deliver and get the job done...
You accuse me of bitching, while you haven't got the faintest clue what I do
and contribute in the background....
TBH: I'm fed up contributing, when dreamers get in touch with me, they ask
for sources, beta's, translated docs etc... that's stuff I've put a lot of
time, work and sweat in, it's not appreciated and if I mail it over nothing
happens with it... from now on I'm gonna keep it all locked away in the
closet. Just like you don't wanna continue working on GGT2, I'm through with
handing out my stuff, let's face it, you've said it yourself.... it has no
value
>If Iconnect is NOT open to others, then rather blame Iconnect authors. U may
>ask them if they can make them open. Or u may use iffusion, and it will be
>ok, since Highwire is Stik compatible...
I don't have to ask anything at all.... it's the coders who must ask for it,
and to your and their surprise they will get all necessary info, and if the
info isn't enough they'll even receive help. ASH has never refused handing
out the specs of Iconnect, but if nobody care to ask.... how do you think
that Vassilis implemented it in MagicNet? I know... and he knows.
The info will be in German of course, if the coders don't understand it, all
they have to do is to contact me, and I'll translate it for them. If they
don't want to deal with me, fine, I'm convinced that Derryck or Peter will do
it without any hesitation also. And the same thing applies to MagiC.... the
fact that it's not open doesn't mean that it's top secret, if you have a
problem get in touch with the author, he's not a monster.... as long as you
don't ask to make it open source I'm convinced he'll give you all the needed
info.
That silly argument that something is not open has been used time and time
again here... except perhaps for one or two programmers, all the people that
code "closed" stuff will be jumping up and down if you contact them... but
it's easier ofcourse to say that it's closed and not bother at all with it.
Cheers from Belgium
Dennis
Dennis Vermeire
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 18:24:53 -0400
>Ok, we are getting somewhere now. You are stuck because you can't run
>MiNT under magicmac. But again that is the path you took, yet you
>project your frustration on others who can do more.
MiNT is installed on the TT, it has a 2 GB ext2fs partition all for
itself, that's 2 GB wasted space reserved for future crap....
I can't run MiNT under MagiCMac that's true, but I can run MacMiNT under
the Mac OS.... that's an adventure by itself :-)
IIRC it's also installed on that clone in the closet, so that's three
times MiNT on three different computers... still think I'm frustrated?
>Why not dust off the clone and sell it to someone who wishes to remain
>true to the platform, someone who doesn't want to use a mere emulator.
>Take the money and get a faster mac.
That's my business.... I don't advice you to sell your mac and use the
money to buy a CT-60 powered falcon either.
>
>These things do not crawl on clones. You have become so hook on the
>magicmac speed there's no turning back now. See, I never questioned
>your equipment before either, look through your so called massive msg
>archive. I question it now, I don't take emulator users serious.
>All your comments about speed just went out the window. There's no
>reference point to compare speed, as magicmac isn't really qualified as
>an Atari. It's merely a 68k emulator, which has a poor design as well,
>since it forces an OS apon you that you cannot swap out.
Hey wise guy... look at google, they've got an even more massive mgs
archive. Whenever I made comments on speed, I always made it clear that
it was on a TT... if I would have used these from MagiCMac you all would
have declared me nuts... like I said in the previous mail, the G4/800
runs MagiCMac at almost 20X the speed of a 68060/50Mhz...
>I have magicmac for both os9 full version, osx demo. I also have a
>mac of course, fairly new one I might add. However, I will not and I
>do not use magicmac for anything but looking at HYP files. I have found
>it's handy for that when I run across one on the web. Outside of that
>it's of no use to me. I am not interested in becoming an emulator user.
Of course you don't, it's a kiddie OS, remember?
>>Still think it's a good point? I think it's a stupid to make
>>point... Kobold, Papyrus, Phoenix database, GFA basic etc... are also
>>available for the PC, existing on a different platform, doesn't say
>>anything about the quality of the software...
>
>GFA-Basic is effectively dead on the PC. Case anyone wonders. ;-)
It sure is, just like Kobold, Phoenix database, Xact etc...
>So what's your real grip with me, now that I know you are a mac user,
>are you upset that aIRC don't run under your emulator?
You know very well what the grip is all about... and calling me a Mac
user won't help solving the matter. Stop this ridiculous campaign, and so
will I.... continue it and together we'll probably destroy CSAST...
Cheers from Belgium
Dennis
Janez Valant
> I know you've said it a 100 times... and I've asked you a hundred times to
> name me the apps, I'm still waiting BTW. I can only conclude that there
> are no MiNT users developing apps which run in accordance to the GEM
> guidelines, but you'll call that twisting words around ofcourse... So
> let's one straight question, and please reply to it in the same manner.
> What apps have been developed by MINT users/coders/developers that run on
> the three OS's? And I said apps, not drivers or utilities....
Dennis do u do this on purpose? Im talking, 100 times, that there is no
MiNT/Magic developers when it comes to apps. There ARE only Atari apps.
MiNT developers are guys developing MiNT itself, and Magic developers are
guys developing Magic. Since they do care bout Atari, noone of those oses
require special coding. The only exceptions so far are Iconnect and MiNT
Net stacks and Magic objects. And if u want straight answer:
Lonny did AtariIRC, he is MiNTer, Atack guys did Aftp, Amail, they are
MiNTers as well, i did GGT2... Still i repeat, those apps run widelly and
they cane be put into category "MiNT application coders" There is no such
category.. I know ud like to spit on it, but there is nothing.. Being Magic
user, or MiNT, most use either GFA, or PureC or Devpac or Tasm.. even GCC
users have to use GEMlibs. And call for fileselector, or window opening etc
is exactly the SAME for both OSes as its all GEM, bios, Xbios calls, except
from those MiNT or Magic have extra....
>>and to blame them is as stupid as to blame Andreas Kromke why there is no
>>new Word proccesors and other apps.
>
> There is a new word processor, and it's better and faster then anything
> you've ever seen on this platform...
And u totaly missed the point i was talking about....
>
>>Only have one question for you: IS magic a CRAP? Did i EVER call Magic a
>>crap, or let say Iconnect and Iconnect related apps since they are bonded
>>to one OS? I didnt. WE didnt... I have no use of those apps, they ARE OS
>>specific but i still wont call them a crap.. Many arent bad apps at all,
>>just wrongly designed....
>
> True you didn't, but then you are the odd one out.
> Iconnect and the Iconnect clients are OS-specific, just like MinTNeT and
> the MinTNet clients are OS-specific, but apart from the Iconnect issue I
> really don't know any other MagiC-specific apps... do you?
Dennis, rare oportunity i use hard words: "FUCK YOU" U asking me this
question? After my kazzilion messages that there is actualy NO MiNT ot
Magic apps! Even Iconnect client or MiNT NET client would work under
"other" OS with simple stack translator, same as Stik and Adamas apps runs
with MiNT net. I claim that from beggining, and now u came up to me with
this? U are on other hand, all over MiNT developers etc, because of ports,
for which i said, also kazzilion times, that they are necessary for some
tasks and EXTRA feature.. U keep showing them as MAIN feature of MiNT!
> Ofcourse you twist words.... I'm talking about OS-specific apps on this
> platform and you give me platform platform specific apps. I don't give a
> damn on how many platforms an app runs. This is the Atari platform, and
> that's the plaform we're discussing here... an app only running on one of
> the three major used OS's doesn't really deserve to be called "Atari
> program" if you ask me...
And who the fuck calls them Atari program?? I never did, noone actualy
never did. U also forgot i mentioned i used Pine, but migrated to Atack
mail, when it came out... Exactly the same reason as mentioned here.. But u
have selective memory....
> I use MagiCMac on the Mac and MagiC on the TT. Sometimes I use the TT to
> post here, other times the Mac... it depends on what machine I happen to
> be busy. The TT runs night and day, it's always available when I need it,
> and take it from me Janez, it's still being used very intensively...
> What I ment to explain was that even if someone has a Mac or PC, there's
> no need to start using specific stuff to post or mail here. The Atari
> software is capable, very capable if it comes down to it. People using
> Entourage on a Mac to post here, are the ones with the balls....
> For the record: there are no Atari's in closets here, the only computer
> that
> is gathering dust in a closet is the clone, and that clone is not a real
> Atari anyway, because just like the Mac it has no "soul".
Still GEM apps ran in MagicMAC relies on MAC open transport, MAC eth
drivers.. same as my GEM apps relies on nfs, unix sockets... Why my way is
bad, and yours is good? Apart for few CLI apps, i use GEM stuff only, from
same reasons as u do, yet u bitch me and question my way...
>
>>But u use Mac, love Magic (all okay with that), which wasnt updated in
>>years, spit and insult everyone, no matter if thats MiNT OS developer
>
> The English MagiC was updated february 2003, when was the last MiNT update
> again.... gee, how time fies...
Dennis dont throw updates of an emulator in my face, tell me about Atari
Magic update. I do NOT wanna buy Mac to be able to use newest update of an
ATARI OS, thats ABSURD. And about MiNT updates, im really happy u mentioned
that, obviously u didnt care to look on pages i suggested, so ill help you:
2003-08-19 Tuesday 14:38 Standa Opichal <opic...@seznam.cz>
* sys/dosdir.c:
Fchown() syscall semantics changed to follow symlinks.
This is now in sync with the libc specification.
The mintlib falls back to Fchown() if the new Fchown16() syscall
is not present (older kernel is in use).
2003-08-19 Tuesday 11:28 Standa Opichal <opic...@seznam.cz>
* sys/: dosdir.c, dosdir.h, syscall_vectors.c, syscalls.master:
Adding the sys_f_chown16 syscall that is like sys_f_chown() but takes the
extra 'follow_symlinks' argument.
This is usefull to implement correct mintlib chown() and lchown() calls.
2003-08-19 Tuesday 11:25 Standa Opichal <opic...@seznam.cz>
* sys/: CONFIGVARS, arch/magic/Makefile:
Adjusted to be able to propagate CVS/CONFIGVARS GLOBAL variable setting.
This is usefull e.g. when you have the libc in other than default directory
on your system to specify the -I and -L paths.
2003-08-08 Friday 11:49 Adam Klobukowski <at...@gabo.pl>
* doc/programmer/newcall.html/shutdown.html:
Little bugfix (sorry)
2003-08-08 Friday 11:45 Adam Klobukowski <at...@gabo.pl>
* doc/programmer/newcall.html/shutdown.html:
Update about poweroff mode
2003-08-07 Thursday 09:31 Adam Klobukowski <at...@gabo.pl>
* sys/: cookie.h, dos.c:
CT60 poweroff support
2003-08-02 Saturday 17:03 Frank Naumann <fnau...@freemint.de>
* sys/init.c:
Added missing #ifdef VERBOSE_BOOT.
2003-07-29 Tuesday 12:11 Jens Heitmann <jhei...@debitel.net>
* tools/mgw/: main.c, syscalls.c:
Bugfix: EOF check in check_exception (called by select)
2003-07-28 Monday 20:49 Michael Schwingen <rinc...@a-tuin.dascon.de>
* sys/biosfs.c:
- disable (broken) biosfs support for Milan UARTs - use the XDD instead.
2003-07-28 Monday 20:48 Michael Schwingen <rinc...@a-tuin.dascon.de>
* sys/init.c:
- re-add code to run ROM AES: GEM=ROM sets init_is_gem==1 and init_prg == 0
- do not hook into reset vector - this should not be necessary, and can
cause problems on MagnumST
2003-07-28 Monday 20:46 Michael Schwingen <rinc...@a-tuin.dascon.de>
* sys/: info.c, info.h:
- add message for ROM AES
2003-07-28 Monday 20:45 Michael Schwingen <rinc...@a-tuin.dascon.de>
* sys/cnf.c:
- re-add code to run ROM AES: GEM=ROM sets init_is_gem==1 and init_prg == 0
2003-07-28 Monday 18:10 Konrad M. Kokoszkiewicz <dr...@obta.uw.edu.pl>
* sys/mis.c:
Corrected the number of seconds in a Gregiorian year
for internal time calculations
(it is 365 days, 5 hours, 48 minutes and 45 seconds, and not
365 days, 6 hours, 11 minutes and 15 seconds :-))
2003-07-12 Saturday 16:46 Odd Skancke <o...@atari.org>
* xaaes/src/: bootup.c, kernel.c, menuwidg.c, xa_shel.c:
Fixed Ssystem() call to get conterm value, fixes kbd repeat.
Fixed a problem caused by small apps terminating too fast, causing parent
code after Pvfork() call to work on a freed xa_client structure by
blocking sigchild longer.
2003-07-01 Tuesday 06:55 Jens Heitmann <jhei...@debitel.net>
* xaaes/src/xa_form.c:
Fixed <RETURN> problem, with dialogs containing only
one edit field and no default button. (Was inserting
CR chars before)
--- snip ----
Here u go, MiNT and Xaaes updates, last few weeks, its updated almost
daily....
> I've written it time and time again, but you don't want to read it....
> MiNT is OK, it's the crap that's being produced for it that is not OK...
There is EXACTLY the same ammount of apps produced for MiNT as for other
Atari OSes. Excpet, again, for MiNT or Magic setup tools, if any in work..
the rest are ports from Unix world, addition to MiNT or Unix as i wish, not
for Atari directly, altough daemons or drivers may add to functionality of
GEM...
> Are you deaf? The only computer in the closet is the clone. And I don't
> care if all the clone users now join in also: a clone is not an Atari....
In not deaf, i just dont believe you. U put clone into closet cause its too
slow, and now u use slower TT all the time? Why are u bought clone in 1st
time, if its so not Atari?
> This is like an old cracked record running. I'm talking about apps that
> the average user needs, and here you are dishing out the same stuff again.
> Why didn't you put Ghostscript in that list? And when can we see an office
> suit or parts of it being ported, according to your logic, it should run
> smoother then what we've been using up until now.... like I said: keep on
> dreaming :-)
Dennis, u are abusive and make idiot out of me... Read my messages and
ull see that i ALWAYS noted, that Xapps are slow, i also noted that
GhostView is slow. I did also say, since i used it, that KNews wasnt so
slow. Where the fuck "my logic" fit in? Stop abusing what i wrote and
forget the hatery, what evil i did to you to deserve it?
> We have a conflicting view on this issue, we can discuss it for another
> ten years, we'll never see eye on eye on this. For you the OS is the most
> important factor, for me it's the apps that run on that OS that are the
> main factor. You may have the most advanced and stable OS in the world,
> without apps taking advantage/showing it off, then in reality you've got
> nothing.
Dennis, now u coinvinced that u dont wana let it go... That u genuine hate
MiNT, MiNT users and all related.... I/WE may say XXX times that BOTH OSes
run the same apps. And what matter OS better is how to serve those apps,
and MiNT does that better. Same apps as on Magic, can do more things a same
apps on Magic. Period.
> I know for certain about Iconnect that this was the reason, I wrote
> probably for the other stacks, because I indeed have no clue...
> but applying a little logic goes far...
Yes u know all....
> Fine, I've already asked to name a couple of these apps... and I'm
> honestly not doing this on purpose: I just don't know and never heard of
> these apps that are coded by people using MiNT as basic OS. I know it
> sounds silly but it's like nothing ever appears from that corner of the
> world... not the kind of apps that you mentioned, if we're talking about
> CLI or OS-specific stuff then it's different of course.
Really? Atack Mail, Atack Ftp, AtariIRC, EmuXL, GGT2. And prolly a lot
more, since we realy cant say what OS authors use.. Many coders use
singletos for coding anyway.... And they are all GEM apps, not Magic apps
or MiNT apps... i dont know what u wana push ans prove here....
> Yep, Thing is shareware, I have no clue why this is an issue so I'm not
> going to comment on it. But be realistic, how can you claim an easy all in
> install when the package contains no desktop?
Find me my message, where i claimed its easy, and not noted obvious
problems or catches? And where i didnt offer help? I always agreed or
warned ppl with possible problems....
And at this point ill stop... U acting insulting and patronising, answering
my claims i didnt say. I can not prove ONE point here, u all twist ALL out
so why the heck ill loosing my nerves and time here. U dont mean nothing to
me, enjoy tortuing other ppl's RSC's, bitching on coders or MiNTers i dont
give a shit anymore. You think so high of yourself, but i remind u,
translation is not creation... Do not forget that. U may translate
Einsteins relative theory to Klingon if u wish, that wont make a physicist
out of you.... And u add to scene aproximately that much... A bit of balast
lp
> People using
>> Entourage on a Mac to post here, are the ones with the balls....
The mac here has a purpose, inet use. I got fed up with Cab, and flip
flopping back and forth between the 2 machines. At least I'm not sitting
behind my mac pretending it's an Atari with an emulator. Cab, yet another
app from ASH, dead in the water...
Beside, you use Opera and other mac apps, just happens you don't use a mac
mailer, so you have no leg to stand on with such a comment anyway. I'm
guessing you are using os9, as OSX is unix based and so very scary. lol
Mark D
> First of all, let me say that you are pathetic...
> I knew it would eventually happen, and it did. When I killfile someone
> I'll never reply to his posts knowing that I'll get to see only bits and
> pieces of selected quoted text in related posts from that person...
> And that's exactly what you've been replying to, you moron !!!
> If you would have read my post, you would have known the whole story, so
> sit on it, you idiot...
>
> My TT runs 24Hrs a day, it's been running non stop for almost two years
> now, I don't need to receive lessons from someone using a clone, I've
> explained why I've put my clone in the closet and why it'll remain
> there. You wouldn't recognise a genuine Atari user if you bumped into
> one... just like your Mac, your clone is a machine without a soul, and I
> can make this statement, because I speak from experience. Ain't it funny
> how the kettle tells the pot he's black? Tell us Lonny, which genuine
> Atari computer you're using besides that fake Hades, and it is a fake, a
> patched TOS on a motherboard does't turn a computer automatically into a
> genuine Atari.
>
> You've really made my day :-)
> Thanks
>
Mhmm.. A Hades has a hell of a lot more soul than MagiCMac. And lets
talk about Soul. You and lp have no right to argue because NEITHER of you
use the computer for it's "soulful" parts, like the ym chip, non-gem
applications, etc. Dennis you have MagiCMac, lp you have a Hades - you're
stuck with GEM apps. Run them on anything, who gives a shit.
But the problem is that Dennis has been arguing from the position of a
real Atarian. Someone sitting on a "slow" box. Well your TT and your
Milan aren't slow boxes... period. And MagiCMac has a hell of a lot less
soul than a Hades! IMHO, A Hades and a Milan are ATARI's, even if they
don't have the name on them.
But that's just my opinion. I can't believe I managed to even respond to
such rubbish. An emulator that CAN'T even boot to TOS is hardly what I'd
call the soul of Atari either.
My CT60 uses Patched TOS? Oh shit, my falcon isn't a "real" Atari
anymore!
Mark D
> I don't have to ask anything at all.... it's the coders who must ask for it,
> and to your and their surprise they will get all necessary info, and if the
> info isn't enough they'll even receive help. ASH has never refused handing
> out the specs of Iconnect, but if nobody care to ask.... how do you think
> that Vassilis implemented it in MagicNet? I know... and he knows.
>
> The info will be in German of course, if the coders don't understand it, all
> they have to do is to contact me, and I'll translate it for them. If they
> don't want to deal with me, fine, I'm convinced that Derryck or Peter will do
> it without any hesitation also. And the same thing applies to MagiC.... the
> fact that it's not open doesn't mean that it's top secret, if you have a
> problem get in touch with the author, he's not a monster.... as long as you
> don't ask to make it open source I'm convinced he'll give you all the needed
> info.
> That silly argument that something is not open has been used time and time
> again here... except perhaps for one or two programmers, all the people that
> code "closed" stuff will be jumping up and down if you contact them... but
> it's easier ofcourse to say that it's closed and not bother at all with it.
>
> Cheers from Belgium
> Dennis
Here you raise a valid point. I will do the work for my applications to
contact authors and attempt to support iConnect in my software. Then
we'll see.
lp
> You've really made my day :-)
You are welcome.
lp
at mduc...@nossspamXXatari-source.com wrote on 8/27/03 10:24 PM:
>> That silly argument that something is not open has been used time and time
>> again here... except perhaps for one or two programmers, all the people that
>> code "closed" stuff will be jumping up and down if you contact them... but
>> it's easier ofcourse to say that it's closed and not bother at all with it.
>>
>> Cheers from Belgium
>> Dennis
>
> Here you raise a valid point. I will do the work for my applications to
> contact authors and attempt to support iConnect in my software. Then
> we'll see.
Anyway, I wrote the ifusion author back when it came out to try and solve
the dcc problem, never ever mentioned open source, or even asked for source
or anything of the sort. I just offered to help solve the dcc problem,
and I got no reply whatsoever. I think I sent a second mail some weeks
later, no reply again.
o...@atari-rules.org
> On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:40:34 +0200, Dennis Vermeire wrote:
>
> > First of all, let me say that you are pathetic...
> > I knew it would eventually happen, and it did. When I killfile someone
> > I'll never reply to his posts knowing that I'll get to see only bits and
> > pieces of selected quoted text in related posts from that person...
> > And that's exactly what you've been replying to, you moron !!!
> > If you would have read my post, you would have known the whole story, so
> > sit on it, you idiot...
> >
> > My TT runs 24Hrs a day, it's been running non stop for almost two years
> > now, I don't need to receive lessons from someone using a clone, I've
> > explained why I've put my clone in the closet and why it'll remain
> > there. You wouldn't recognise a genuine Atari user if you bumped into
> > one... just like your Mac, your clone is a machine without a soul, and I
> > can make this statement, because I speak from experience. Ain't it funny
> > how the kettle tells the pot he's black? Tell us Lonny, which genuine
> > Atari computer you're using besides that fake Hades, and it is a fake, a
> > patched TOS on a motherboard does't turn a computer automatically into a
> > genuine Atari.
Ok. This is a collection of the most stupid statements I've heard from
anyone in here up till now.
> >
> > You've really made my day :-)
> > Thanks
> >
>
> Mhmm.. A Hades has a hell of a lot more soul than MagiCMac. And lets
> talk about Soul. You and lp have no right to argue because NEITHER of you
> use the computer for it's "soulful" parts, like the ym chip, non-gem
> applications, etc. Dennis you have MagiCMac, lp you have a Hades - you're
> stuck with GEM apps. Run them on anything, who gives a shit.
Uhmm... Hades has a YM ;-) Hades has got everything a TT has, except
shifter and scsii dma :)
> My CT60 uses Patched TOS? Oh shit, my falcon isn't a "real" Atari
> anymore!
Does your CT60 hardware have "Made by atari" on it? No? It's got no soul!
Oh god.. :)
--
Regards,
Odd Skancke - <ozk AT atari DOT org> - http://assemsoft.atari.org
To reply, remove -RULES from the Reply-To: address.
Maurits van de Kamp
>>>how the kettle tells the pot he's black? Tell us Lonny, which genuine
>>>Atari computer you're using besides that fake Hades, and it is a fake, a
>>>patched TOS on a motherboard does't turn a computer automatically into a
>>>genuine Atari.
>
>
> Ok. This is a collection of the most stupid statements I've heard from
> anyone in here up till now.
Yes, this really is going nowhere. It shows why these discussions always
end up in crap; it's because certain people argue for the sake of it,
instead of trying to coming up with logic in order to establish some
sensible viewpoint. They first assume X sucks (whether X is an OS, an
Atari-derived computer or a person) and then will come up with any silly
argument that points in that way.
I'll stop reading these threads now, there's really no intellectual gain
that can be expected here. :)
Maurits.
Mark D
> Anyway, I wrote the ifusion author back when it came out to try and solve
> the dcc problem, never ever mentioned open source, or even asked for source
> or anything of the sort. I just offered to help solve the dcc problem,
> and I got no reply whatsoever. I think I sent a second mail some weeks
> later, no reply again.
And if I get that kind of response, then I won't implement iConnect
support ever, and then Dennis can realize that maybe the authors should
have released specs and libs to begin with. But we'll see what happens
when I get to that bridge.
lp
> On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:40:34 +0200, Dennis Vermeire wrote:
>
>> First of all, let me say that you are pathetic...
>> I knew it would eventually happen, and it did. When I killfile someone
>> I'll never reply to his posts knowing that I'll get to see only bits and
>> pieces of selected quoted text in related posts from that person...
>> And that's exactly what you've been replying to, you moron !!!
>> If you would have read my post, you would have known the whole story, so
>> sit on it, you idiot...
So you just now come to this amazing discovery? If crap comes across my
screen I will respond, sound familiar? I can't control the quoting by other
individuals. Also, I said quite some time ago I will not come in here with
the filters removed. Secondly, what's more pathetic... me responding to what
I actually do see on my screen, or you responding to numerous post knowing
full well I most likely won't ever see them? Comical.
99.9% of what you say is worthless repetitive babbling which the filters
take care of. The other 1% is crap. Either invoke a filter on your end, or
skip the post if you don't like the content. It's easy, give it a try.
>> My TT runs 24Hrs a day, it's been running non stop for almost two years
>> now, I don't need to receive lessons from someone using a clone, I've
>> explained why I've put my clone in the closet and why it'll remain
>> there. You wouldn't recognise a genuine Atari user if you bumped into
>> one... just like your Mac, your clone is a machine without a soul, and I
>> can make this statement, because I speak from experience. Ain't it funny
>> how the kettle tells the pot he's black? Tell us Lonny, which genuine
>> Atari computer you're using besides that fake Hades, and it is a fake, a
>> patched TOS on a motherboard does't turn a computer automatically into a
>> genuine Atari.
I don't care if you sleep with your TT, you ranted about moving forward, and
20x speed. I and others, can only conclude that the mac is indeed your
main computer. So go ahead and attempt to back step if you like, it's just
like you. So anymore persons and/or groups you wish to offend? Now that
you just put down all clone developers and clone owners. Last I checked my
hades didn't boot macos and it's hardware built specifically to run TOS. In
fact that comment is utterly retarded, as if an apple is anything closer to
a real Atari. Fire up Opera, on my web page is may equipment in detail,
pictures even.
> Mhmm.. A Hades has a hell of a lot more soul than MagiCMac. And lets
> talk about Soul. You and lp have no right to argue because NEITHER of you
> use the computer for it's "soulful" parts, like the ym chip, non-gem
> applications, etc. Dennis you have MagiCMac, lp you have a Hades - you're
> stuck with GEM apps. Run them on anything, who gives a shit.
FYI, Hades has a ym-chip actually.
> But the problem is that Dennis has been arguing from the position of a
> real Atarian. Someone sitting on a "slow" box. Well your TT and your
> Milan aren't slow boxes... period. And MagiCMac has a hell of a lot less
> soul than a Hades! IMHO, A Hades and a Milan are ATARI's, even if they
> don't have the name on them.
>
> But that's just my opinion. I can't believe I managed to even respond to
> such rubbish. An emulator that CAN'T even boot to TOS is hardly what I'd
> call the soul of Atari either.
Indeed!
> My CT60 uses Patched TOS? Oh shit, my falcon isn't a "real" Atari
> anymore!
You are such a bad boy... shame on you. lol