Flash: Atari builds 68060 workstation
Michael Grove
We can dream, can't we?
Mike
S94
Heeheehee :) :) :) :) Mind you, their ATW800 was a real kickass machine.
S.Lai
George Crissman - Ferran Scientific
: Apple is selling refurbished Powermac Performa 6115
: 8/350/cd, 16 bit sound, 16 bit color, ethernet and cdrom for $1050. Much
: cheaper than a FALCON!
Is this the same Apple Computer that can make a 16 MHz 68030 system
run slower than Atari's ten-year-old 8 MHz 68000 system?
-- George
STIR...@maine.maine.edu
The Mac is refurbished for one thing. How bout prices on new
Macs? Secondly, my Falcon gives me 16-bit color and 16-bit
stereo. No advantages there. Quite a few people, I believe,
wouldn't be able to use ethernet (some colleges allow this).
You get more memory and hard drive space but, hey, you need it!
I have an 85 meg hard drive on my Falcon and have almost 20 megs
free. You do get a CD-ROM drive.
Of course, you could buy a used Falcon for less.... and the
price advantage of any Mac flies out the window when you add the
cost of high-priced Mac software.
The bottom line is that a Falcon is much more fun to us!!
Oh, I saw that my local Mac reseller was selling a box that allows
a Mac to hook up to televisions for presentations. Standard on
my Falcon ;-).
-scott tirrell
BTW, I was looking in Mac World and hardly any advertisers had systems
to sell. Noone had new machines at prices around $1,000....
Brian Quinlan
>Pete,
>The Mac is refurbished for one thing. How bout prices on new
>Macs? Secondly, my Falcon gives me 16-bit color and 16-bit
>stereo. No advantages there. Quite a few people, I believe,
>wouldn't be able to use ethernet (some colleges allow this).
Ethernet makes for a great high-speed printer port.
>You get more memory and hard drive space but, hey, you need it!
>I have an 85 meg hard drive on my Falcon and have almost 20 megs
>free. You do get a CD-ROM drive.
Maybe programs take more space on a mac but data should be the same.
Graphics files at a given resolution and bit depth are just as big
on an Atari. And MPEGs don't magically shrink when you bring them to
Atari.
--
Brian Quinlan
qui...@sfu.ca
sincl...@cobra.uni.edu
> Pete,
> The Mac is refurbished for one thing. How bout prices on new
> Macs? Secondly, my Falcon gives me 16-bit color and 16-bit
> stereo. No advantages there. Quite a few people, I believe,
> wouldn't be able to use ethernet (some colleges allow this).
> I have an 85 meg hard drive on my Falcon and have almost 20 megs
> free. You do get a CD-ROM drive.
The refurbished Macs = buyer remorse and or failed Apple's first burn in
process but sent back to the repair line to fix the glich but can't sell as
new. Backed by a 90 day warranty. Lots of people use ethernet and you are
deluding yourself if not having it is not important. Schools need
ethernet..Looks like a missed oppurtunity for Atari.
I have a 250 meg HD with 60 megs of free space. I may have more items than you
do. Lots of quick art..
> Of course, you could buy a used Falcon for less.... and the
> price advantage of any Mac flies out the window when you add the
> cost of high-priced Mac software.
You can buy a mew Mac LC 475 for $499 with a one year warranty from Mac mall
and MacWarehouse. What high priced Mac software? Elaborate with real world
home/business apps, please.
> The bottom line is that a Falcon is much more fun to us!!
> Oh, I saw that my local Mac reseller was selling a box that allows
> a Mac to hook up to televisions for presentations. Standard on
> my Falcon ;-).
The Mac is also fun to use especially with the standard cdrom unit.
> -scott tirrell
> BTW, I was looking in Mac World and hardly any advertisers had systems
> to sell. Noone had new machines at prices around $1,000....
Mac Mall, Mac Zone and MacWarehouse has Performa 636 8/250/cd with keyboard and
software bundle for $999. Leftover Powerbook 150's are priced at $999. Much
cheaper and useful than the mythical over priced ST Book.
Peter Sinclair-Day Macintosh Performa 636
University of Northern Iowa PowerBook 150
Graduate School of Library/Curriculum and Information Science
Http://w3.nai.net/~asincla/home.htm
We're in the clutches of a bunch of folks trying to turn the U.S. into a
third world country. Two hundred billionaires and 260 million poor people.
And they haven't done enough damage yet to be beaten.
Garrison Keillor on the Republican Congress.......
Internet-demo...@webcom.com / Type subscribe in body of message
Michael Grove
>In article <DFIB2...@ridgecrest.ca.us>, Michael Grove
<mgr...@owens.ridgecrest.ca.us> writes:
>> And Sinplop has a f-ing heart attack and dies on the spot.
>>
>> We can dream, can't we?
>
would have
>cost, if Atari had one? Apple is selling refurbished Powermac Performa
>8/350/cd, 16 bit sound, 16 bit color, ethernet and cdrom for $1050.
Much
>cheaper than a FALCON!
>
God Sinplop, never say die. I have the cash, and if they made
it, I'd buy it. I just like Atari's. That is something I can
live with but it seems that you can't, otherwise you wouldn't
be here. Just go snuggle up to mommy and start sucking.
Mike
Michael Grove
snip
SinPlop said
>
collection. I will have to say they have excellent service.
Purchased it from BigMac, saw the add in Mac User. Plugged
it in and no video. Fuck. Should of worked hooked to the
NEC XP 21" I just got. So I called Jack, err a, Mac, and
they asked, "did you turn the key?". Yup I says. Ok we will
send someone right out to fix it. Two day's later a Kodak
repair man shows up with a new 950 logic board. Wow, nice
I thought. He fumbles with the covers and finally sets it in
place. Power up. No video. Shit. Ok he says, I'll come back
tomorrow with a new logic board and a new power supply.
The guy actually shows up, replaces both items and shazzam,
it works. Ok, I bought 7.5 on CD, but had to boot off a floppy
first. (Bought it with no hard drive so it would fit on a
government credit card, 2500.00 limit you know). Message,
this disk is unreadable, do you want to initialize it?
Hell no, its my new disk tools disk, why in the hell would I
want to do that? Checked connections. They look ok, but the
cable had been folded in about six places, one area with wire
showing through. Ummm... Yanked the external HD drive off the
Quadra 630, fired it up on the 950 and it actually booted.
Ok, great. Now I can format the Quantum 540 I stuck in the
950 (I removed it from my Toad 4-bay, it "was" Atari formatted).
Run SCSI probe. Yup, its there. Run the Mac HD software to format
540. What, it's not there? Son-of-a-bitch (ehh..SinPlop?) I
know it's there. Call Jack again. Wait 30 minutes (better than
microstuff). Wha, Wha, Bla,Bla. Oh! If it's not Mac formatted
the Mac Software can't "see" it. What? A HD has to be Mac
formatted to be able to format it? Which came first, the chicken
or the Mac? You know, I forgot how the hell I finally got it
formatted, but it is. Ok floppy dosen't work, so transfered files
from 630 disk to 950 internal. Stuck external back on 630 and
loaded Crystal CD software it, put back on 950. Hooked up
CD and 630 HD (still following?). Wow, 7.5 loaded ok. Went from
1.3 megs of system software to 2.4, but what the hell, I have 32.
XP21 was actually to damn big for my station, swapped for an
Impressions 17". Shit, what's all that green. Umm.... Seems
the 950 needs a switch on the monitor port (al la multi-sync
gizzmo) to tell it what to sync on and what screen size to use.
Call Mac Zone. Ordered 1 meg of V-ram and a Lappis switch. It
was only about a 100.00, what the hell. Mean while, back at the
ranch, I went to the local Jack dealer. Needed a floppy disk
ribbon cable for a 950. Guy comes back with a power cable.
Umm.... No, I need the wide, flat, gray, cable about 15"
long. Guy comes back with 15 4 inch cables. I smile and go
home to my Falcon. I can make the disk cable up, I'm sure,
or have the Kodak guy bring it out, but he will have to install
it. Mac Zone order should come in Monday. <Hope> that fixes
the monitor problem. Now look at a DiiMO Cache add in Mac Abuser
or Mac World. Read the add close. It says a 50mhz 040 with
128k cache for Quadra 610,630,650.660AV,700,800,900,950,ect..
others shipping soon. The only reason for the 950 was to add
this card so MagicC Mac would rip-ass. Ordered from Mac Zone.
Asked for a bla,bla, for a Quadra 950. Yup, we gottum. 828.00
Now I gottum. Easy installation. Pull old (new) 040 out and
add DiiMo. Smoke! Called Peripheral Outlet. hey, your add says
bla,bla (read above). No, No, that add was ment for our future
products. We only make the 50mhz for a 700 and 900. I says, Lady
read your fucking add. I'm sorry sir, you'll have to take that
up with advertising. Now what? Called Mac Zone. Hey, you guys
sold me a product that just smoked my 950. (Told them what
DiiMo bitch said). Ummm.. our data says it works on a 950,
well change that right away. As for you 950..... Called Jack
again. It's broke. Did you turn the key? Yup. Ok here comes
the Kodak guy. New logic board at no cost. Thats service.
You know I got rid of a Pentium 90 with VLB video problems
for this. Mabey, after this next job i'll make enough to order
a 900 logic board. With the V-ram, DiiMo 050mhz and MagicC Mac,
i'll end up with a nice machine. But the 33/040 is slower
than my 486/66 at home buy a ways (I don't care what the specs
say) and dosen't even compair to the Pentium. In the mean time
I brought my Falcon into work ( image that, an Atari an a Naval
base) to complete the job. I had 120 scanned Tiff's that were
to be incorperated into a document. That really took some space
and would take forever to print so I let ImageCopy 4 batch
process them to JPG's. Then, printed them to an HPLJ4 (you
should of seen the little Falcon run the 21" without any
problems). I knew I should of ordered the Medusa 060 for
work!
It just goes to show you SinDrop err...SinPlop, nothing is
perfect, not even your Jacks. And the slow little Falcon
got the mission done. (Its now back in its nest at home:))
Mike
Brian Quinlan
[Long but interesting story deleted]
So basically you are griping because you stuck an Atari hard disk into a
Mac and it didn't work. And a 4? year old computers motherboard was
defective and it's slower than intel models being sold today. And
some guy ripped you off. And your PC/Atari monitor wouldn't work on
a Mac without a cable. And for some reason you don't want to boot off
a CD. I don't really understand your point though the story was
entertaining. It would say you had one bad week.
--
Brian Quinlan
qui...@sfu.ca
Paul Luscher
16 bit sound on a Mac doesn't mean the same thing as Falcon
Sound! I can do 16 channels of 48KHZ playback direct to and from a
SCSI-II hard disk! This cannot be done with a Mac without special add on
cards and even those won't ever get you to 16 channels running Cubase
Audio on a MAC. I can do that with a Stock Falcon, 4meg 65meg HD and a
Syquest SCSI drive. It is also true that Falcon software is much more
compact as a general rule than Mac software, but still quite functional
and in the case of d2d digital music recording, much more functional. In
fact there is no alternative to a Falcon for Music and general purpose
home computer use in one Full Multimedia machine with everyhing standard!
Falcon's rather unimpressive 16 MHZ 030 is counter balanced by the
Falcon's multi-processor architecture allowing many things that are only
available through a limited number of add-on cards on other machines,
thus cannot be generally supported. I.E. Blitter, DSP etc.
All the Falcon needs is a ton of game cartridges and a CD rom
marketed for video games and you could put them in as an alternative to
the 32BIT playstation, which can only play Video Games, where as the 32
bit Falcon can do anything a Home computer can be asked to do. Ok, the
Sony P/S hardware is in a different realm entirely, there, now you don't
have to flame me, but I Love my Falcon, it's everything I need it to be
and more. (I'm touching it now! *sick*) Anyway, Stik saved me from
looking into an AMIGA to do WWW on anything but a PC and I don't have $
for a MAC.
:) Paul.L...@m.cc.utah.edu
Het leven is een eigenaardige verzameling van alles buitengewoon!
Methought, Hence Mewert!
James Wood
On 4 Oct 1995, Paul Luscher wrote:
> Falcon's rather unimpressive 16 MHZ 030 is counter balanced by the
> Falcon's multi-processor architecture allowing many things that are only
[snip]
It's nice that the Falcon has those "other things" but there is no
"counter-balancing" for Atari's laziness in throwing in a lowly 16Mhz
processor to start with. 16Mhz machines should have died out in the 1980's.
> All the Falcon needs is a ton of game cartridges and a CD rom
> marketed for video games and you could put them in as an alternative to
Heh heh heh. These are the things that the Jaguar needs, actually.
Might as well forget about it for the Falcon, beause it will never happen
so it's not worth discussing. Trouble is, it's beginning to look like it
will never happen for the Jaguar if Atari doesn't get their asses in gear.
Don't get me wrong; I WANT this to happen but my patience wore thin after
the Jag was about 2 years old.....
James
Brian Quinlan
> 16 bit sound on a Mac doesn't mean the same thing as Falcon
>Sound! I can do 16 channels of 48KHZ playback direct to and from a
>SCSI-II hard disk! This cannot be done with a Mac without special add on
>cards.
Well, only the 68K AV macs can do 48KHz sound, the rest can only do
44KHz or 22KHz of actual sound since it's gradiated by 1/2 Hz. But
that is still above the exceptional mark for human hearing. And
middle aged people are lucky to hear 16.5KHz. The mac can do
44KHz playback @ 16-bit from a SCSI harddisk. I've done so using
32 channels. Couldn't the Mac version of Cubase just suck?
>Falcon's rather unimpressive 16 MHZ 030 is counter balanced by the
>Falcon's multi-processor architecture allowing many things that are only
>available through a limited number of add-on cards on other machines,
>thus cannot be generally supported. I.E. Blitter, DSP etc.
There is a difference between a multiprocessor architecture and using a
few ASICs. All computers use ASICs but few can manage, in an effective
way, multiple processors.
--
Brian Quinlan
qui...@sfu.ca
Mark Rathwell
Considering it isn't even two years old yet, you must have a
little patience left.
>> Mark <<
--
==============================================================================
Mark Rathwell = "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"
=
The Universiy Of Guelph = "We did come from apes. Some folks around here
= have a little catching up to do."
mrat...@uoguelph.ca =
==============================================================================
Brian Quinlan
>This is a totally unfair comparision. Works is an arguably very limited
>program. If you want to compare apples to apples, compare Papyrus to
>Word Perfect or Word. Each of these are generally over $300.
I bought WordPerfect for $99 and the newest version (3.5) is only $150.
--
Brian Quinlan
qui...@sfu.ca
George Crissman - Ferran Scientific
incredibly tenacious Peter Sinclair-Day (sincl...@cobra.uni.edu) wrote:
: My Performa 636 8/250/cdrom, keyboard, software bundle,
: built in communications/video slots plus the top of the line 040-33 mhz
: costed $999 plus $3.00 for next day delivery from MacWarehouse.
Since we know that Apple's inefficient operating system can make a
16 MHz 68030 computer (the LC II) run slower than Atari's 8 MHz 68000
computer, it's obvious that your 636 wouldn't be able to keep up with
the Falcon.
It's no wonder the 636 is so cheap.
-- George
BTW--Did you really mean "costed"?
James Wood
On 5 Oct 1995, azog wrote:
> James Wood (jam...@PEAK.ORG) wrote:
>
>
> : Look in the Toad Computers catalog (somebody) and price the full version
> : of Papyrus. Then price Microsoft Works for PC/Mac.
>
> This is a totally unfair comparision. Works is an arguably very limited
> program. If you want to compare apples to apples, compare Papyrus to
> Word Perfect or Word. Each of these are generally over $300.
>
Yeah - totally unfair - unfair to Works. Papyrus is just a word
processor. I forgot to mention that Works has spreadsheet, and
database. I never use anything but the word processor, so I can't attest
to the quality of those components, but they are there if I need them.
However, "Microsoft Word" is available at the college bookstore for $99 -
"educationally priced." Don't worry if you're not a college student or
faculty member - I'm sure most anyone would buy it for you. The point is
that I *can* get Word (full-blown version) for $99, and back when I was
looking for a hot WP for my Atari, I found that Papayrus cost more than
the hardware on which it was to be run.
My point was simply to counter the accusation that Mac software is
"expensive" as someone tried to claim. My point was simply that Atari
software is expensive, probably more so.
James
James Wood
On 5 Oct 1995, Mark Rathwell wrote:
> : Don't get me wrong; I WANT this to happen but my patience wore thin after
> : the Jag was about 2 years old.....
>
> Considering it isn't even two years old yet, you must have a
> little patience left.
>
> >> Mark <<
I don't know what the original release date was, nor do I give a sh*t.
It won't be long before it is, and my point still stands - the same
problem (few games) plagues it, as it has from day one. You need not
dwell on the fact that it's not exactly 2 years old in an attempt to
defend a situation (game shortage) that should not be.
James
sincl...@cobra.uni.edu
> James Wood (jam...@PEAK.ORG) wrote:
>
>
> : Look in the Toad Computers catalog (somebody) and price the full version
> : of Papyrus. Then price Microsoft Works for PC/Mac.
>
> This is a totally unfair comparision. Works is an arguably very limited
> program. If you want to compare apples to apples, compare Papyrus to
> Word Perfect or Word. Each of these are generally over $300.
Claris Works 4.0 cost me $49, WordPerfect is available for $99 and Microsoft
Office is available to millions for $149. Nice try for trying to mislead.
>
> --
> Billy D'Augustine
> az...@gti.gti.net
> http://www.gti.net/azog/
>
Jag..console or sex cult?...on the next edition of Geraldo!
sincl...@cobra.uni.edu
> Still quoting hardware quantities and ignoring overall performance, the
> incredibly tenacious Peter Sinclair-Day (sincl...@cobra.uni.edu) wrote:
>
> : My Performa 636 8/250/cdrom, keyboard, software bundle,
> : built in communications/video slots plus the top of the line 040-33 mhz
> : costed $999 plus $3.00 for next day delivery from MacWarehouse.
>
> Since we know that Apple's inefficient operating system can make a
> 16 MHz 68030 computer (the LC II) run slower than Atari's 8 MHz 68000
> computer, it's obvious that your 636 wouldn't be able to keep up with
> the Falcon.
Its' nice to dream...
>
> It's no wonder the 636 is so cheap.
>
Cheap? Thats norm of the computer industry. The Falcon is an insult for being
to over priced..
> -- George
>
> BTW--Did you really mean "costed"?
Nope. 15 credit hours of grad classes and fatique made me do it.
Jag..couch potato of the console world..
Brian Quinlan
>Ok. The newest version is WordPerfect for Windows, version 6.1. This retails
>for approx $399. We, a government agency, get a discount, and pay
>$239. I would like to know where you get it for $99?
I bought it through MacZone.
--
Brian Quinlan
qui...@sfu.ca
Brian Quinlan
>Yeah - totally unfair - unfair to Works. Papyrus is just a word
>processor. I forgot to mention that Works has spreadsheet, and
>database. I never use anything but the word processor, so I can't attest
>to the quality of those components, but they are there if I need them.
Actually, it is impossible to be unfair to MSWorks. You are being too
generous to it not matter how badly you insult it. ClarisWorks is
a different story.
--
Brian Quinlan
qui...@sfu.ca
Martin Krischik
qui...@news.sfu.ca (Brian Quinlan) said:-
>In comp.sys.atari.advocacy you write:
>
>> 16 bit sound on a Mac doesn't mean the same thing as Falcon
>>Sound! I can do 16 channels of 48KHZ playback direct to and from a
>>SCSI-II hard disk! This cannot be done with a Mac without special add on
>>cards.
>
>Well, only the 68K AV macs can do 48KHz sound, the rest can only do
>44KHz or 22KHz of actual sound since it's gradiated by 1/2 Hz. But
>that is still above the exceptional mark for human hearing. And
>middle aged people are lucky to hear 16.5KHz. The mac can do
To create 16.5KHz of real sound you need at least 2*16.5=33KHz of
sample frequency - but so more so better.
__
Martin Krischik mar...@krischik.demon.co.uk
Kein Matsch-DOS auf meiner Maschiene.
Mark Rathwell
: to over priced..
So were most of Apple's computers until the last couple years.
azog
: >
: > : Look in the Toad Computers catalog (somebody) and price the full version
: > : of Papyrus. Then price Microsoft Works for PC/Mac.
: >
: > This is a totally unfair comparision. Works is an arguably very limited
: > program. If you want to compare apples to apples, compare Papyrus to
: > Word Perfect or Word. Each of these are generally over $300.
: Claris Works 4.0 cost me $49, WordPerfect is available for $99 and Microsoft
: Office is available to millions for $149. Nice try for trying to mislead.
Not. As I stated previously, and I will continue to hold my feelings on
this, and I can even supply a purchase order to prove my point. We purchase
WP6.1 for $239, on GSA and/or state contracts.
Thorsten Guenther
>16Mhz machines should have died out in the 1980's.
Phhh...in 1989, 386sxs and 286s were still state-of-the-art machines.
Thorsten
--
- guen...@cabal.shnet.org (Thorsten Günther) -
------------------------------------------------
- Es ist Ralph Babel ausdrücklich untersagt, -
- diesen Artikel zu archivieren. -
Thorsten Guenther
>In article <44tf35$h...@news.cc.utah.edu>, pl4...@u.cc.utah.edu (Paul Luscher) writes:
>> 16 bit sound on a Mac doesn't mean the same thing as Falcon
>> Sound! I can do 16 channels of 48KHZ playback direct to and from a
>> SCSI-II hard disk!
>Excuse me, the Falcon can't match the PPC!
Irrelevant, as the PPC doesn't give harddisk recording capabilities like
the Falcon does.
>The Macs/PC's dominate the music
>market.
Sure they do, but yet Ataris are widespread e.g. in the Techno scene (not
to mention that Jean-Michel Jarre uses Ataris).
>If the Falcon is soo great, why is it's role miniscule?
Tunnel vision, I presume.
>How much did
>your falcon cost?
Falcon MK II, internal 350 meg SCSI, 14 megs, Cubase Audio: 4,090.- DMs,
compare it with the price of the Session 8/Cubase Audio bundle.
>Can you run Quicktime
>annimation and wealth of multimedia software?
What use do these have for a musician?
Brian Quinlan
>Irrelevant, as the PPC doesn't give harddisk recording capabilities like
>the Falcon does.
I don't understand what you mean here. Are you implying that you can't
record sounds directly to the harddisk on a PPC? That's completely
untrue.
>What use do these have for a musician?
Actually QT could be fairly handy for a musician. QT has platform independant
(as long as you platform is a Mac or PC :) ) MIDI support. It also offers
a variety of compression formats.
--
Brian Quinlan
qui...@sfu.ca
James Wood
Christ Almighty. The entire point here is that a program like Papyrus
for the Atari cost more than the hardware on which it is to run. THE
ONLY REASON IT WAS BROUGHT UP WAS BECAUSE AN ATARI USER ACCUSED OTHER
PLATFORMS OF HAVING "EXPENSIVE HARDWARE."
In the meantime, people have resorted to refusing to acknowledge that
PC/Mac versions of software comparable to (if not superior to) Papyrus is
available for a fraction of the price. I'VE SEEN IT AT THE COLLEGE
BOOKSTORES!!! I don't know how anyone can have any face when they deny
this fact. The fact that some business pays $239, or even a GOVERNMENT
AGENCY (didn't the U.S. GOv't pay $500 for toilet seats some years ago??)
for that matter lacks the resources to pick up products at the lowest
prices IN NO WAY invalidates the fact that they are available for less
elsewhere.
Please....I'm just trying to stick with the facts here. I suggest that
the nay-sayers do the same. I can get the latest version of "Microsoft
Word" for $99 at the school bookstore. Anyone care to post the price of
Papyrus (even mail order from Toad) so I can prove my point and lay this
arguement to rest?
James
sincl...@cobra.uni.edu
> : Cheap? Thats norm of the computer industry. The Falcon is an insult for being
> : to over priced..
>
> So were most of Apple's computers until the last couple years.
Make that three years..
>
> >> Mark <<
>
> --
> ==============================================================================
> Mark Rathwell = "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"
> =
> The Universiy Of Guelph = "We did come from apes. Some folks around here
> = have a little catching up to do."
> mrat...@uoguelph.ca =
> ==============================================================================
Jag..couch potato of the console world!
Rod McCall
: Please....I'm just trying to stick with the facts here. I suggest that
: the nay-sayers do the same. I can get the latest version of "Microsoft
: Word" for $99 at the school bookstore. Anyone care to post the price of
: Papyrus (even mail order from Toad) so I can prove my point and lay this
: arguement to rest?
If you are a student in th UK Papyrus can be had for around #85.
Which as you will no doubt point out is more than word.
--
Rod McCall, Student, Computer Science, Dundee University
1994/95 President, University of Dundee Dramatic Society
"I'm 32 not 17, how many times do I have to tell you!"
Arcanity
have begun reading it in its later stages, but I can see
that it is really 2, 2, 2 threads in one. I might actually
be interested in learning something about an Atari rumour
such as the title suggests (no doubt a rumour - I thought
Atari officially left the computer business strictly for
games, if that). Fill me in.
THE Storehouse of the Arcane
fen...@intellimedia.com
Michael Grove
>Michael Grove <mgr...@owens.ridgecrest.ca.us> writes:
>
>[Long but interesting story deleted]
>
>So basically you are griping because you stuck an Atari hard disk into a
>Mac and it didn't work.
the Mac wanted to see a Mac Formatted HD. I would of thought
Disk Tools could have at least handled that!
And a 4? year old computers motherboard was
>defective and it's slower than intel models being sold today.
I believe.
And
>some guy ripped you off. And your PC/Atari monitor wouldn't work on
>a Mac without a cable.
dam'n picky.
And for some reason you don't want to boot off
>a CD.
I don't really understand your point though the story was
>entertaining. It would say you had one bad week.
SinDrop seems to think that God Blessed the Mac (and Iowa).
Mike
>
>
>--
>
>Brian Quinlan
>qui...@sfu.ca
Michael Grove
>In article <DFrI7...@ridgecrest.ca.us>, Michael Grove
>>
>> snip
>> SinPlop said
>>>The Mac is also fun to use especially with the standard cdrom unit.
>>>
>> Yup, I had real fun with the Quadra 950 I just added to my
>> collection.
>> It just goes to show you SinDrop err...SinPlop, nothing is
>> perfect, not even your Jacks. And the slow little Falcon
>> got the mission done. (Its now back in its nest at home:))
>
whats
>wrong with yours?
Nothing wrong with the CD. Just the standard Mac tool kit.
I never said that all platforms were glitch free. I do not
>see the rational for investing in a vapor medusa that lacks a software
base.
The Atari software base suites me just fine. All those little
programs dancing around at the same time. You really should
look at the "dark-side" of the mac and see how much quicker
MagicCMac really is.
>Pentium and powerMac prices will be heading south...
To where the scrap heap is :)
Mike
> Peter Sinclair
Michael Grove
>In article <44tf35$h...@news.cc.utah.edu>, pl4...@u.cc.utah.edu (Paul
Luscher) writes:
>> Sound! I can do 16 channels of 48KHZ playback direct to and from a
on
>> Audio on a MAC. I can do that with a Stock Falcon, 4meg 65meg HD and
a
>> Syquest SCSI drive. It is also true that Falcon software is much more
>> compact as a general rule than Mac software, but still quite
functional
>> and in the case of d2d digital music recording, much more functional.
In
>> fact there is no alternative to a Falcon for Music and general purpose
>> home computer use in one Full Multimedia machine with everyhing
standard!
>> Falcon's multi-processor architecture allowing many things that are
only
>> available through a limited number of add-on cards on other machines,
>> thus cannot be generally supported. I.E. Blitter, DSP etc.
>
music
>market. If the Falcon is soo great, why is it's role miniscule? How
much did
>your falcon cost? My Performa 636 8/250/cdrom, keyboard, software
>built in communications/video slots plus the top of the line 040-33 mhz
costed
>annimation and wealth of multimedia software?
to?). After running PhotoShop on my now half-ass running Quadra 950,
with 28 megs of ram, and watching it choke doing some KPT filters,
I have to admire the little Falcon. It can hang with its "sub-standard"
software (not my words). I know for a fact that if you say you "standard"
$999.00 Mac with 4 megs of ram can run PhotoShop, SinPlop, your full of
shit. It will die a terrible death. A 4 meg Falcon runs ApexMedia
just fine, and in a higher color depth. Neon works just as well (yeh,
I know, you don't know what the f*#k Neon is). As for the 040-33,
with no FPU I might add, it needs it just to get the software off the
hard disk to load at a decent speed. Software that cost three times
that of the compatible Falcon versions. As far as "multimedia"
software is concerned, they are all just tools, it's up to the operator
to make the final product. As a matter of fact, I have a video clip
I made of a cat doing a SinPlop. I was going to use it for an SNL
add, but what the heck, i'll make a QT of it and you can use it for a
screen saver:)
I'd better stop now. I'm getting carried away :)
Mike
> Peter Sinclair
Michael Grove
>In article <44vp80$d...@news2.cts.com>, dfe...@crash.cts.com (George
Crissman - Ferran Scientific) writes:
>> Still quoting hardware quantities and ignoring overall performance,
the
>> incredibly tenacious Peter Sinclair-Day (sincl...@cobra.uni.edu)
wrote:
>>
>> : built in communications/video slots plus the top of the line 040-33
mhz
>> : costed $999 plus $3.00 for next day delivery from MacWarehouse.
>>
>> 16 MHz 68030 computer (the LC II) run slower than Atari's 8 MHz 68000
>> computer, it's obvious that your 636 wouldn't be able to keep up with
>> the Falcon.
>
>Its' nice to dream...
>
>>
>> It's no wonder the 636 is so cheap.
>>
>
don't want to be stuck with discontinued models. At least the
Falcon is still being made. By the way, didn't I read several
months ago you were getting a Power PC? Can you afford all the
new software or are you just going to run you old stuff at Performa
speeds?
>
>> -- George
>>
>> BTW--Did you really mean "costed"?
>
>Nope. 15 credit hours of grad classes and fatique made me do it.
Don't try to bullshit us more than you are already doing!
Mike
>
>
> Peter Sinclair
Michael Grove
>
>
>On Fri, 29 Sep 1995 STIR...@MAINE.MAINE.EDU wrote:
>
>> and the
>> price advantage of any Mac flies out the window when you add the
>> cost of high-priced Mac software.
>
>ST/Falcon software is amongst the HIGHEST priced - if you can find any.
>One reason I had to finally abandon the line was the price of software
>like Papyrus - which cost more than the value of my computer.
>Look in the Toad Computers catalog (somebody) and price the full version
>of Papyrus. Then price Microsoft Works for PC/Mac.
>
>
I did. Microsoft office cost about $250.00 more than Papyrus, unless
you cheat them for an up-grade version.
Mike
Christopher Brett Strong
> Atari 2600..clogging up landfills across the world..
That's because they sold ten zillion of them....
I must ask, if you don't like Atari products---and all I have seen you do
so far is bash them---why are you here? You still seem to be fighting
the circa-1979 Apple vs. Atari rivalry
> Peter Sinclair-Day Performa 636/8-250/CD
> University of Northern Iowa
Perhaps you should grow up a little....
> Internet-demo...@webcom.com / Type subscribe in body of message
Then again, perhaps you just enjoy arguments....
\ oo Christopher B. Strong InterNet STR...@EE.UTAH.EDU
\____|\mm
//_//\ \_\ decRAD: CSTRONG CADE: STRONG@ENG
/K-9/ \/_/
/___/_____\
-----------
"If the mean don't get you, the variance will." -- James 1. Rieger
Christopher Brett Strong
> The refurbished Macs = buyer remorse and or failed Apple's first burn in
> process but sent back to the repair line to fix the glich but can't sell as
Is this the same Apple that pretends the Apple III never existed, and
literally _laughed_ at me when I mentioned trading in my $8000 Lisa at
their recent "trade in your old apple" promotion? Face it, they have not
been wonderful either.
Brian Quinlan
>No, It was a standard SCSI disk. A Quantum 540LPS. It was just that
>the Mac wanted to see a Mac Formatted HD. I would of thought
>Disk Tools could have at least handled that!
Not that you should have know this but the mac tries to mount all volumes
when it boots up. To avoid it mounting hard disks you can hold down
command-shift-option-delete. That should have worked.
>No, the date of manufacture was July of 1994, assembled in Ireland,
>I believe.
They where making Q950 that late?! Holy crap.
>No, just a standard SVGA monitor. I didn't know they were so
>dam'n picky.
They require more data to be passed to the video card. It means that you
need more logic in the monitor but it means that any mac monitor will
drive any (as far as I know) mac monitor as long as you have enough
VRAM.
>My point was that any machine can have it's weird little problems.
>SinDrop seems to think that God Blessed the Mac (and Iowa).
Of course all computers have their problems. And I'm sorry but I don't
read Peters posts. I think that we should start a private mailing list
just to keep him off of it.
--
Brian Quinlan
qui...@sfu.ca
James Wood
On Wed, 11 Oct 1995 STIR...@MAINE.MAINE.EDU wrote:
> James,
> With all due respect, you keep talking about a student discount price
> on software. Not everyone has access to this. Or, should we include
> the tuition you pay to get this discount and then compare software
> prices?
Not everyone does, but a lot of people do. Most people know someone who
is a student. They're not going to do a security/background check. You
know what is more relevant than the fact that "not everyone" has access?
The fact is that college students (whether they need to buy Papyrus or
Microsoft Word) are the ones that need the biggest price break AFTER
ALL. There's no discount for Papyrus for college students like me. Just
because there IS for Word doesn't invalidate my comparison.
Person #1: College student who needs word processor.
Atari: Pay $150 (I'm guessing) for Papyrus
PC: Pay $99 for latest version of Microsoft Word
Person #2: Atari: Pay $150 (??) for Paypyrus
PC: a: give a college student a C-note and have them get Word
b: pay full price for Word ($150???)
As I mentioned, college students need cheap software more than anybody.
No wonder that's why there are discounts (as well there should be) on
such software. Simply stated, PC/Mac software is ***NOT*** expensive in
comparison to Atari software.
Another example: HOw much is that Atari FAX software from Toad (I don't
have my Toad catalog anymore)? I think it was like $100 or something.
Just to send a fax!! Every $60 faxmodem I've ever bought came with
throw-away FAX software for PC - but it did the job at no additional
cost.
My intentions were simply to truthfully counter the accusation by an
Atari user that "other platforms" have "expensive software" when in fact
Ataris have (relatively speaking) expensive software.
> I was looking in MacWorld the other day. A place had Word listed for
> over $200, I believe. I will check again for you if you want.
Actually, I'd like someone to state the price (in U.S. dollars) of
Papyrus, which can be found listed in the Toad Catalog.
> Your point about the software being more expensive then the hardware
> is silly. What's the point?
The point is that when I was running a 520/1040ST that would be lucky to
bring $50-$100 if I was to sell it, why should I dump 1.5-3 times that
much for a word processor to run on it? There's a very nill market
should I decide to get rid of it. From my perspective, it's throwing
good money after bad. What resale value is there?
I can run expensive software on a
> Mac Plus. If you'd like buy a Medusa to run Atari software on ;-).
> Seriously, I don't understand your reasoning. Isn't low-cost hardware
> a good thing?
Low-cost hardware is a good thing. Low cost software is a good thing.
However, when it costs more for a word processor than for the hardware on
which it runs, and there is very little resale value for either, then I
see it as a rather large investment to pay more for the software than the
hardware on which it runs. By the time the "cheap" Atari hardware is all
upgraded with large hard drive, RAM, new TOS, 1.44 floppy, you're a good
part of the way to what a new system costs, and you'll never come close
to getting a reasonably value for it should you decide to upgrade to a
different machine later because the market is so small. After enduring
all that expense, you get SOCKED with the price of Papyrus? Maybe you
make $100,000 a year and find the price of Papyrus, Fax software (etc)
reasonable, but I surely don't. However, my beliefs aren't paramount to
the issue. The issue is that "other platforms" don't have "expensive"
software when compared to Atari. In a worst-case scenario, I'd say that
buyers of Atari software are "no better off" than buyers of software for
other platforms.
James
George Crissman - Ferran Scientific
: The point is that when I was running a 520/1040ST that would be lucky to
: much for a word processor to run on it? There's a very nill market
: should I decide to get rid of it. From my perspective, it's throwing
: good money after bad. What resale value is there?
Just about anything you buy will depreciate in value so the
question isn't about "resale value". The real question is
"how much will it cost to do what I want to do?" In the eight
years I've owned my ST, I think I've spent maybe $2500.00 on
application software and hardware upgrades to stay current.
On other platforms (Mac or Clone), it's not unreasonable to
purchase a *brand* *new* $2500.00 machine every four years.
Even then, you must add some "optional extras" to the base machine
just to make it suitable for use.
Clearly, my total cost of ownership is MUCH less when I compare
my ST to the other alternatives available at the time of my
original purchase: the IBM PC/AT or the Apple MacIntosh+.
So does it bother me that Papyrus may cost $25.00 more than
Clone software, knowing that I've saved a minimum of $2500.00
[ more like $5000.00 ] so far compared to other computer users?
Not even a little bit.
-- George
BTW: With history as a guide:
Is it likely that new Falcon owners will still have new useful
applications for their existing machines in eight years? Yes!
Is it likely that Clone/Mac owners will still have new useful
applications for their existing machines in eight years? No.
If you're looking to avoid planned obsolescence, get a Falcon.
STIR...@maine.maine.edu
No, Atari is not moving back into the computer market. It was
posted as a joke.
However, I believe that Medusa is working on a 68060 machine so
it is a possibility someday :-). Also, C-Lab should have
new models based on the Falcon someday.
-scott tirrell
Michael Grove
of TOS platforms that seem to have taken up residence here.
The only truth to the 68060 Atari is in the form of a clone.
If you don't already know of it, it's called the Medusa and
is imported into the U.S. by the Lexicor Corp. A much better
place to learn what is current (sic) with Atari computers and
their clones is to visit the .st or .tech newsgroups.
Mike
Somebody has to help hold up the Fuji flag :)
sincl...@cobra.uni.edu
> Why doesn't this thread resemble its title? I obviously
> have begun reading it in its later stages, but I can see
> that it is really 2, 2, 2 threads in one. I might actually
> be interested in learning something about an Atari rumour
> such as the title suggests (no doubt a rumour - I thought
> Atari officially left the computer business strictly for
> games, if that). Fill me in.
The original meesage was meant for me as a tease.
>
> THE Storehouse of the Arcane
> fen...@intellimedia.com
Jag..faking good graphics since 1993.
BeBox(?)
Peter Sinclair-Day Macintosh Performa 636
University of Northern Iowa PowerBook 150
Graduate School of Library/Curriculum and Information Science
Http://w3.nai.net/~asincla/home.htm
Saying Windows 95 is equal to Macintosh is like finding a potato that looks
like Jesus and believing you've witnessed the second comming.
-Guy Kawasaki
sincl...@cobra.uni.edu
> James,
> With all due respect, you keep talking about a student discount price
> on software. Not everyone has access to this. Or, should we include
> the tuition you pay to get this discount and then compare software
> prices?
Well the Tax payers did. i want to thank you and your family for the support.
> I was looking in MacWorld the other day. A place had Word listed for
> over $200, I believe. I will check again for you if you want.
> Most of the good software prices I see in Mac magazines mention something
> about students or schools or upgrades.
What about ClarisWorks for $49? Free with Performas, the PowerBook 150 and
190.
> We could discuss the cost of upgrading software if you'd like.
> Your point about the software being more expensive then the hardware
> is silly. What's the point? I can run expensive software on a
> Mac Plus. If you'd like buy a Medusa to run Atari software on ;-).
> Seriously, I don't understand your reasoning. Isn't low-cost hardware
> a good thing?
The Medusa is a ripoff! $3000? Most likely..I can get three 630's with cdroms
for that price. The Falcon and the Medus are not low cost. I suggest you
better inform yourself.
> And, yes, I am the Atari user who made the claim about Mac software
> being expensive and, on the whole, I'd stick by this claim (unless you
> get student discounts).
Your claim is totaly wrong! What equivelant apps are you basing this claim on?
> -scott tirrell
Atari Jihad..not as powerful as Iran, but equaly fanatical!
sincl...@cobra.uni.edu
The Falcon still being made? ROTFLMAO!!! The 630 series is still being made
and in alot more quantities than the Falc..
I eventualy will upgrade to PPC. I can't decide if its going to be a BeBox or
a DayStar upgrade.
>
>>
>>> -- George
>>>
>>> BTW--Did you really mean "costed"?
typo. Due to fatigue..
>>
>>Nope. 15 credit hours of grad classes and fatique made me do it.
>
> Right. I was there the other day and saw you pushing that broom.
> Don't try to bullshit us more than you are already doing!
>
ROTFLMAO!!!
> Mike
>
>>
>>
>
>> Peter Sinclair
>
Jag..console or religious cult?...on the next edition of Geraldo!
sincl...@cobra.uni.edu
If you tried to trade in your Lisa for that amount, I would of laughted at you
as well! What do you expect..How much were you expecting?
>
>
Jag..Ross Perot of the console world - ain't going no were..
Chris Cracknell
: The thoughtful James Wood (jam...@PEAK.ORG) wrote:
: : The point is that when I was running a 520/1040ST that would be lucky to
: : bring $50-$100 if I was to sell it, why should I dump 1.5-3 times that
: : much for a word processor to run on it? There's a very nill market
: : should I decide to get rid of it. From my perspective, it's throwing
: : good money after bad. What resale value is there?
: Just about anything you buy will depreciate in value so the
: question isn't about "resale value". The real question is
: "how much will it cost to do what I want to do?" In the eight
: years I've owned my ST, I think I've spent maybe $2500.00 on
: application software and hardware upgrades to stay current.
~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^
Buying software on the ST!?!?!
There's so much high quality PD and Shareware out there for these
machines that's there's not much point in spending big bucks for certain
kinds of software.
Plus there's so much discontinued, out of print software of high quality
for these machines that there's not much need to spend big money on
esoteric programmes like word proccessors. Technically it's still illegal
to pirate discontinued software (at least in Canada) but I've never heard
of anyone getting busted for it and since the author isn't going to be
getting anymore royalties out of something no longer in print I don't see
how distributing oney-eyed copies is going to hurt anyone.
The ST is the perfect machine for people who don't want to spend alot of
money but want to get alot of productivity, especially in the midi field.
Between shareware, PD, and discontinued software there's enough out there
to keep a person going for years.
In Canada you can often find colour 1040STs selling for $100 and
monochrome ones for $75. Unupgraded 520's are a dime a dozen (I got one
in exchange for an ancient 2400 baud modem which is itself only worth $15).
Yepper, the perfect machine for those who are low on cash, which now
adays is just about everyone.
CRACKERS
(Tory Government means more ST users from hell!!)
Brian Quinlan
>Have you ever had a closer look on Cubase Audio 16 on the Falcon? Does a
>PPC allow you doing the same?
Tell me what it does and I'll tell you if a PPC can do the same. BTW, wouldn't
the PPC version of Cubase have the same feature set as the Falcon version?
>Reaction: "I already have good MIDI software."
Perhaps, but can you exchange that data easily with the other 95% of the
computing world? One thing that developers seems to be using QT for is
designing cross platform music that will sound good without a MIDI device
and great with one.
--
Brian Quinlan
qui...@sfu.ca
Thorsten Guenther
>Mac Mall, Mac Zone and the Mac House
...and Fries and a Coke, please!
Thorsten Guenther
>guen...@cabal.shnet.org (Thorsten Guenther) writes:
>
>>Irrelevant, as the PPC doesn't give harddisk recording capabilities like
>>the Falcon does.
>
>I don't understand what you mean here. Are you implying that you can't
>record sounds directly to the harddisk on a PPC? That's completely
>untrue.
Have you ever had a closer look on Cubase Audio 16 on the Falcon? Does a
PPC allow you doing the same?
>>What use do these have for a musician?
>
>Actually QT could be fairly handy for a musician. QT has platform independant
>(as long as you platform is a Mac or PC :) ) MIDI support. It also offers
>a variety of compression formats.
Truly impressive, but try getting a musician's attention with this.
Reaction: "I already have good MIDI software."
Thorsten
Michael Grove
>and in alot more quantities than the Falc..
>I eventualy will upgrade to PPC. I can't decide if its going to be a
BeBox or
>a DayStar upgrade.
going to play that game. Why don't you take all your sweeping
funds and buy a real machine, like SGI?
Mike
James Wood
On 14 Oct 1995, Chris Cracknell wrote:
>
> Buying software on the ST!?!?!
>
> There's so much high quality PD and Shareware out there for these
> machines that's there's not much point in spending big bucks for certain
> kinds of software.
Might I point out to this good fellow that he overlooks the fact that
*ANY* popular computing platform has scads and scads of shareware, so it
tips the scales in no particular direction.
James
Thorsten Guenther
>guen...@cabal.shnet.org (Thorsten Guenther) writes:
>
>>Have you ever had a closer look on Cubase Audio 16 on the Falcon? Does a
>>PPC allow you doing the same?
>
>the PPC version of Cubase have the same feature set as the Falcon version?
Does a PPC machine have a standard digital IO port for the standard DSP?
azog
: >Does a PPC machine have a standard digital IO port for the standard DSP?
: The PowerPC doesn't need a DSP to process digital signals to acheive Falcon
: equivalent performance since processor is fast enough to do it itself. I
: could of course be proven wrong if you give me function that the Falcon can
: do and the Mac can't. And what do you mean my "standard digital IO"?
Without rancor, or the intent of flaming, I must ask: do you know what a
DSP is? (without rancor, since I am rather hazy on just what it is). I
don't have a specification sheet, or exact defination, but your statement
makes me wonder if you know less of them than I do.
A DSP is an extremely specialized processor, who's only goal in life
is to deal with "signals" (whatever the hell they are!), and "do stuff
with them". The samples I have let me take an analogue input, such as a
microphone, and edit these signals in real time. (ie: I don't need to
save them to disk, make the editing changes, and play the sound). There
are also DSP applications that deal with voice processing. If you've
ever researched voice mail, a voice card is similar to a modem, but often
includes a DSP that allows one to "do stuff" with the incoming voice
stream (such as compressing), that one cannot do with regular phones
or answering machines. I imagine you could even do video processing with
a DSP, since video is just a signal.
I would bring up D2D (direct to disk recording), but I am unclear just
what that is...
The PPC, no matter how fast it is, simply cannot do what a DSP does.
Otherwise, there would not be specialized voice cards (Dialogic in
NJ is a vendor of these). An even more base example is the SoundBlaster
card. These have (or can have) a processor called an ASP (advanced
signal processor?), which let you do all the things a DSP can do.
Without these, you can't use the microphone input (or if you can,
you are limited to what it can do).
In short, the processor speed has nothing to do with it. There are many
specialized processors that exist on the market, and these cannot be
replaced by general processors like the PPC (or Pentium, or whatever).
--
Billy D'Augustine
az...@gti.gti.net
http://www.gti.net/azog/
George Crissman - Ferran Scientific
time) the one and only Peter Sinclair-Day (sincl...@cobra.uni.edu)
wrote a lot and managed to communicate:
: The Falcon is a discontinued model from Atari.
Not true. It has been licensed to C-Lab and is still available.
:Atari no longer manufactures and supports it.
This much is true.
: Apple also announced a $699 6300 logic board upgrade for the 630
: series and 6200 series. I am tempted.
In prior years, Atari owners claimed you could get an whole new
computer for the cost of an "upgrade" on other platforms. Since
the base C-Lab Falcon is still available for $799.00, it looks
like this claim remains true.
And as a bonus, you get a much more efficient operating system,
scads of standard built-in ports, a DSP, room for a $59.00 math
coprocessor, and compatibility with a software base extending back
ten years or so.
Plus: Like other Atari computers, the Falcon doesn't catch fire.
: ROTFLMAO!!! [ BTW -- That's a *lot* of laughing ]
-- George
George Crissman - Ferran Scientific
: On 13 Oct 1995, George Crissman - Ferran Scientific wrote:
: > Just about anything you buy will depreciate in value so the
: > question isn't about "resale value". The real question is
: > "how much will it cost to do what I want to do?" In the eight
: > years I've owned my ST, I think I've spent maybe $2500.00 on
: > application software and hardware upgrades to stay current.
: Every consumer commodity has a resale value. You may not like to think
: about it, yet it does exist. Whether it's an automobile or a vacuum
: cleaner, there exists a market for second-hand products. To deny this is
: amongst the most specious of all arguements I've ever heard.
Aw, c'mon -- where did I deny the existance of a second-hand market?
The whole concept of depreciation is based on how much money you can
get for reselling an item. And my point was: how much does it cost
to accomplish the task at hand with the equipment you need? And I
demonstrated that it was *significantly* less expensive with an Atari.
: > On other platforms (Mac or Clone), it's not unreasonable to
: > purchase a *brand* *new* $2500.00 machine every four years.
: > Even then, you must add some "optional extras" to the base machine
: > just to make it suitable for use.
: Computer Shopper is filled with fully-loaded 486/66Mhz/80Mhz/100MHz+
: systems for around half that (if not less) and they are fully-loaded with
: CD-ROMs and sound and 8megs and software and certainly not lacking for
: "options to make it suitable for use." Once again, someone needs to make
: better observations. Yes, I loaded Pentium might cost that, but it's a
: damn fast computer and a clock-multiplied 486 is still bang-for-buck champ.
The '486 is dated technology (they're even sneering at it on the talk
shows here in San Diego), and 8 megs isn't really suitable for anything
more than casual use (...if you're running Microsoft Windows, that is...).
: I've also seen fully-loaded Mac systems at/around $1000-$1200, but I
: don't know enough about them to elaborate.
We'll probably hear from sinclap on the matter <g>. However, it takes
a MacIntosh running a better processor and double-or-faster clock speed
to equal the performance of the comparable Atari machine.
: > Clearly, my total cost of ownership is MUCH less when I compare
: > my ST to the other alternatives available at the time of my
: > original purchase: the IBM PC/AT or the Apple MacIntosh+.
: I agree; that's why I bought the ST. However, if there is ever a system
: with hidden costs to make it "suitable for use," it's the ST. By the
: time one adds new TOS, 4-megs of RAM, 1.44 floppy, etc.etc.etc they're
: way in over the cost of a competing platform and would have to give it away.
TOS Upgrade: $59.00
Floppy Upgrade: $100.00
RAM Upgrade: $100.00 plus RAM (same cost on all platforms)
-------
$259.00
(source: Toad Computers catalog)
: > Is it likely that new Falcon owners will still have new useful
: > applications for their existing machines in eight years? Yes!
: There will be very few "new Falcon owners" TODAY, let alone 8 years from
: now. What planet are you on? The great dearth of Falcon software has
: been the bane of the Falcon (and most Atari products) since its
: introduction.
"Lots of software" is always comforting, but how many of the 45
Clone spreadsheets do you actually need? How many of the 237 Clone
word processors do you actually need? How many of the 68 Clone
databases do you actually need?
My guess is that you'll only need one or two applications in any
given category. Surprise! Falcon owners can choose from several
applications in each category as well. While we don't have the
luxury of learning to operate 237 different spelling checkers, we
do have spelling checkers in our software!
: The tiny niche Falcon market is too small to attract much
:software development,
There is a good selection of software that runs on the Falcon,
just check out the 56-page catalog from Toad Computers or look
at all the advertisements in ST Informer.
: and the fact that the Falcon isn't even close to being
: "totally compatible" with its predecessors makes matters worse.
80% of existing ST software runs on the Falcon and you claim
that it "...isn't even close to being 'totally compatible' with
it's predecessors"? I disagree!
: Having said that, what is going to convince software devlopers to produce
: for the Falcon in 8 years? I'd like to know why you believe that, honestly.
1. Because the Falcon hardware is still in production.
2. Because the Falcon is still being actively marketed.
3. Because the new software already available is leading edge stuff.
4. Because Atari owners enjoy their platform and support each other.
5. Because clones of the Atari computer are becoming available.
: > Is it likely that Clone/Mac owners will still have new useful
: > applications for their existing machines in eight years? No.
: Ha!! 8 years is an eternity in this industry. However, there are so
: many Clones and Macs out there (than other designs) that I'm sure there
: will still be a market.
Go ahead and wander down to a CompUSA or a Computer City and try to
buy some new software that will run on an IBM PC/AT or an Apple
MacIntosh+. You can't!
Then check the recent software offerings for the Atari computers
and you'll see that a lot of it will run on an 8-year-old ST.
That's why it's cheaper to perform a task on an Atari instead of
a Clone or an Apple.
A: > If you're looking to avoid planned obsolescence, get a Falcon.
: What are you saying? Just because the Falcon was the "flagship" of the
: Atari line and they quit making computers after it, then it will always
: be a "flagship" and thus have eternal status as such?
Nope. I'm saying that it's much more likely that when new software
is released 8 years from now it will run on today's Falcon, based
on the fact that new software released today will run on an
8-year-old Atari ST.
: Just because my 486/80Mhz isn't the fastest PeeCee there is,
: it's automatically obsolete? I rather doubt the latter.
That's the word on the street. 486's are out, Pentiums are in.
: I'm not the type of person who HAS TO HAVE the "latest and
: the greatest."
True. But you *do* have to own a machine that will run the software
you buy. That's where Clones and Apples put you at a disadvantage.
: I suppose if that is your sole
: criteria for purchase, you could see things that way. I really don't
: care what the fastest new Pentium/Pro is. When my current machine fails
: to serve me, I'll have to sell it or toss it in a shitbox and get a new
: computer.
That's what I said originally! Cloners need to spend about $2500.00
every four years to perform their task, while I've only had to spend
$2500.00 in *eight* years. It's cheaper to perform the task with an
Atari computer.
: Relative to new, innovative designs, all current computers
: will become obsolete. What makes you think the Falcon is immune to
: this?
Not immune, just resistant.
: The very fact that you believe so clearly illustrates how unrealistic
: your arguments are.
Some people buy a computer to "follow the crowd" or to "impress their
friends" or even to "get free software from work". I chose my computer
because it was the most cost-effective way to accomplish my task. What
is realistic to me is clearly not realistic to you.
Do we agree to disagree on this matter, or shall we go around again?
-- George
Brian Quinlan
>Without rancor, or the intent of flaming, I must ask: do you know what a
>DSP is? (without rancor, since I am rather hazy on just what it is). I
>don't have a specification sheet, or exact defination, but your statement
>makes me wonder if you know less of them than I do.
A DSP is specialized processor designed to process digital signals. It
is usually heavily optimized for floating point operations. In particular
a DSP can usually do fp multiply and fp add very quickly. Some can do
both in a single instruction. This allows a DSP to process matricies very
quickly and that is the usual format of digital signals.
>The PPC, no matter how fast it is, simply cannot do what a DSP does.
>Otherwise, there would not be specialized voice cards (Dialogic in
>NJ is a vendor of these). An even more base example is the SoundBlaster
>card. These have (or can have) a processor called an ASP (advanced
>signal processor?), which let you do all the things a DSP can do.
>Without these, you can't use the microphone input (or if you can,
>you are limited to what it can do).
This is were you are wrong. The processor can do anything that the DSP
can do. It's just that a DSP can do some functions faster than the
processor. It also allows the processor to offload some functions to
the DSP and process other instructions itself in parallel. So a
fast enough processor can do everything a DSP can do plus some things that
a DSP cannot do. The original Power series ( from which the PowerPC was
desived ) was designed for rapid fp calculation. The 601 has a single
instruction that can do a a fp multiply and add. And the latency is
less than ten cycles ( I can't remember the exact number). In some
benchmarks the 60Mhz 601 (the absolute slowest) was just BARELY beaten
by a 40-MHz 68040 and a 66MHz AT&T DSP. The Falcon does not, of
course, have a 40-MHz 68040 or a 66MHz DSP.
>In short, the processor speed has nothing to do with it. There are many
>specialized processors that exist on the market, and these cannot be
>replaced by general processors like the PPC (or Pentium, or whatever).
The reason that you don't want to replace a processor with a DSP is
that processors that are equally rapid doing FP calcs are more
expensive.
--
Brian Quinlan
qui...@sfu.ca
sincl...@cobra.uni.edu
> In article <1995Oct16.1...@cobra.uni.edu>, sincl...@cobra.uni.edu writes:
>>The Falcon is a discontinued model from Atari. Atari no longer manufactures
>>and supports it.
> They may not support it anymore (BTW: Atari of Europe still does, actually),
> but they still ship them (I think they may even still produce them).
>
If there is enough suckers out there!
>> True, my 636 8/250/cd is no longer manufactured because Apple
>>replaced it with a 8/500/cd one.
> THAT I'd call discontinued . . .
Same model with a beafier harddrive. Apple dropped the price to $1399, which
includes monitor, cdrom, keyboard, modem and software bundle. Apple just
announced that they unloaded 1.25 million Macs in the previous quarter.
I may even upgrade to the new Performa PPC 6300. Just slide out the old in
with the new for $699! Can't say that with the Falcon!
>
>
>
>
Jag..console or religious cult?...on the next edition of Geraldo!
BeBox(?)
Peter Sinclair-Day Macintosh Performa 636(6300?)
sincl...@cobra.uni.edu
> Continuing to quote at incredible depths (most of it edited out this
> time) the one and only Peter Sinclair-Day (sincl...@cobra.uni.edu)
> wrote a lot and managed to communicate:
>
> Not true. It has been licensed to C-Lab and is still available.
Can I buy one localy? The Falcon has been discontinued by Atari.
>
> :Atari no longer manufactures and supports it.
>
> This much is true.
>
> : Apple also announced a $699 6300 logic board upgrade for the 630
> : series and 6200 series. I am tempted.
>
> In prior years, Atari owners claimed you could get an whole new
> computer for the cost of an "upgrade" on other platforms. Since
> the base C-Lab Falcon is still available for $799.00, it looks
> like this claim remains true.
If you are a Falcon owner, how do you upgrade to something higher?
>
> And as a bonus, you get a much more efficient operating system,
> scads of standard built-in ports, a DSP, room for a $59.00 math
> coprocessor, and compatibility with a software base extending back
> ten years or so.
Efficient OS?..behind the times..Can't do much..And I don't have zillions of
ports in the back? My software is updated soo often using 20th genration
versions. What is your point? You can't even find ST software localy.
>
> Plus: Like other Atari computers, the Falcon doesn't catch fire.
Ah, a selling point.>..But you still have that mushy keyboard!
>
> : ROTFLMAO!!! [ BTW -- That's a *lot* of laughing ]
>
> -- George
>
>
The Atari Jihad..not as powerful as Iran, but equaly fanatical!
BeBox(?)
Peter Sinclair-Day Macintosh Performa 636
Thorsten Guenther
>az...@gti.gti.net (azog) writes:
>
>>Without rancor, or the intent of flaming, I must ask: do you know what a
>>DSP is? (without rancor, since I am rather hazy on just what it is). I
>>don't have a specification sheet, or exact defination, but your statement
>>makes me wonder if you know less of them than I do.
>In some
>benchmarks the 60Mhz 601 (the absolute slowest) was just BARELY beaten
>by a 40-MHz 68040 and a 66MHz AT&T DSP. The Falcon does not, of
>course, have a 40-MHz 68040 or a 66MHz DSP.
But the Falcon DSP does not waste it's time running MacOS.
The Falcon DSP is usually directly accessed, not via OS.
The Falcon DSP has a digital port for IO.
In short: the Falcon gives the musician more than the Mac at a lower cost.
Brian Quinlan
>I'm not concerned with the PPC. It will still only run 040 software
>at Quadra/Performa speeds. Main-stream users will not change their
>whole software selection just to be almost as fast as a Pentium.
>And those that do probably should have purchased a DOS, err.. WIN 95
>box in the first place. Poor misguided souls.
A 604 PowerMac can run 040 software faster than any Quadra, including the
Q840AV. And you don't have to change you software just to get PPC software.
All the current releases of major software have included a PPC version. So
if you the latest version of Photoshop, Deltagraph, Freehand, Illustrator,
QuarkXPress, PageMaker, Director, Nisus Writer, Claris Works, WordPerfect,
Word, Excel, FileMaker Pro, etc then there will also be a PPC copy on the
disk/CD. Care to give me a counter example? And, except for the MS products,
most benchmarks show the PPC to be faster than a Pentium box. And, of course,
if you use a PC then you might have to use Windoze...
--
Brian Quinlan
qui...@sfu.ca
Christer Gustavsson
<sincl...@cobra.uni.edu> wrote:
>Yea, right.. The Falcon lacks a web browser! Its your right to hold onto
>something that has failed!
>
Please check before you say something that is not true, PeeWee. Write whatever
bullshit you want, but if you're going to tell a lie you could do better than
this. Ah, I forgot, the little librarian is too stupid to think for himself...
/Christer
Sander Stoks
>Well, the PowerMacs and the AVs have a GeoPort. On the AVs it is connected
>to the DSP. On the PowerMacs it's connected to the processor via DMA.
>All that I know you can connect to it is a GeoPod that converts analog
>phone communications to digital. I don't know if other vendors have used
>it for other things. And I would like you to quote something that I've posted
>that could be considered bashing. I have never attacked the Falcon; when
>other people have compared the Falcon to the Macintosh and made claims of
>inferior Macintosh performance I have either refutes their claim or asked
>for additional evidence. I think that I have been reasonable.
You have been. In fact, the above reply shows that again. It seems
like in the rage of flame-wars over here, just being associated with
Mac immediately brings guys like Sinclap into mind - so you're flamed
straight away.
I see it happen over here very often that some dork starts a thread,
everybody gets mad, and if anyone sensible tries to add some facts,
he's just flamed for being `of the wrong camp'.
Personally, I think the PPC is a pretty impressive chip. If a Linux
were available for PowerMac, than this machine would probably be my
next computer. As it is now, I will probably use my Falcon until it
finally dies, buy a big fat pentium (or P6, at that time) with Linux
and continue my computing on that box.
Regards,
--
/* san...@sci.kun.nl */ main(){char*c="2$$,$$2CD$45$$,$$5(D$4%$$,$$%(D$4%J\
*/K*%(K,K2MMPL%2HLH,4LLLL$4HLF$4RLLS$4HL%;5MLLD$5HL&<5MLPL$5HLHL2R,/K$2(K,+";
int _=0,__,K;for(;_<10;_++){for(__=0;__<11;__++)for(K=0;K<6;)putchar(c[11*_+\
__]-36&1<<K++&&__*6+K<65?'#':' ');putchar(10);}} /*ATARI Falcon030 */
Frieder Guy
: In article <461qau$g...@news3.cts.com>, dfe...@crash.cts.com (George Crissman - Ferran Scientific) writes:
: > The level-headed James Wood (jam...@PEAK.ORG) wrote:
: >
: > : On 13 Oct 1995, George Crissman - Ferran Scientific wrote:
: > : > Just about anything you buy will depreciate in value so the
: > : > question isn't about "resale value". The real question is
: > : > "how much will it cost to do what I want to do?" In the eight
: > : > years I've owned my ST, I think I've spent maybe $2500.00 on
: > : > application software and hardware upgrades to stay current.
: >
: > : Every consumer commodity has a resale value. You may not like to think
: > : about it, yet it does exist. Whether it's an automobile or a vacuum
: > : cleaner, there exists a market for second-hand products. To deny this is
: > : amongst the most specious of all arguements I've ever heard.
: >
: > Aw, c'mon -- where did I deny the existance of a second-hand market?
: > The whole concept of depreciation is based on how much money you can
: > get for reselling an item. And my point was: how much does it cost
: > to accomplish the task at hand with the equipment you need? And I
: > demonstrated that it was *significantly* less expensive with an Atari.
: >
: > : > On other platforms (Mac or Clone), it's not unreasonable to
: > : > purchase a *brand* *new* $2500.00 machine every four years.
: > : > Even then, you must add some "optional extras" to the base machine
: > : > just to make it suitable for use.
:
: well. Doesn't the Falcon cost $1900 fully loaded?
:
:
: >
: > : Computer Shopper is filled with fully-loaded 486/66Mhz/80Mhz/100MHz+
: > : CD-ROMs and sound and 8megs and software and certainly not lacking for
: > : "options to make it suitable for use." Once again, someone needs to make
: > : better observations. Yes, I loaded Pentium might cost that, but it's a
: > : damn fast computer and a clock-multiplied 486 is still bang-for-buck champ.
: >
: > The '486 is dated technology (they're even sneering at it on the talk
: > shows here in San Diego), and 8 megs isn't really suitable for anything
: > more than casual use (...if you're running Microsoft Windows, that is...).
: >
: And the expensive Falcon is not?
:
: > : I've also seen fully-loaded Mac systems at/around $1000-$1200, but I
: >
: > We'll probably hear from sinclap on the matter <g>. However, it takes
: > a MacIntosh running a better processor and double-or-faster clock speed
: > to equal the performance of the comparable Atari machine.
:
: screen saver? What a comparison. You can't even compare because the ST/Falcon
: is soo behind.
:
: >
: > : > Clearly, my total cost of ownership is MUCH less when I compare
: > : > original purchase: the IBM PC/AT or the Apple MacIntosh+.
: >
: > : I agree; that's why I bought the ST. However, if there is ever a system
: > : with hidden costs to make it "suitable for use," it's the ST. By the
: > : time one adds new TOS, 4-megs of RAM, 1.44 floppy, etc.etc.etc they're
: > : way in over the cost of a competing platform and would have to give it away.
: >
: > TOS Upgrade: $59.00
: > Floppy Upgrade: $100.00
: > RAM Upgrade: $100.00 plus RAM (same cost on all platforms)
: > -------
: > $259.00
: >
: > (source: Toad Computers catalog)
: >
: > : > Is it likely that new Falcon owners will still have new useful
: > : > applications for their existing machines in eight years? Yes!
: >
: something that has failed!
:
: > : There will be very few "new Falcon owners" TODAY, let alone 8 years from
: > : been the bane of the Falcon (and most Atari products) since its
: > : introduction.
: >
: > "Lots of software" is always comforting, but how many of the 45
: > Clone spreadsheets do you actually need? How many of the 237 Clone
: > word processors do you actually need? How many of the 68 Clone
: > databases do you actually need?
: Forgot web browsers, games and multimedia apps...Doesn't take a genius to
: figure out to spend as much money on the dead Falcon to the other cheaper
: platforms that have a wealth of apps and hardware! Again, what planet are you
: on? GET WITH THE PROGRAM!
:
: >
: > My guess is that you'll only need one or two applications in any
: > given category. Surprise! Falcon owners can choose from several
: > applications in each category as well. While we don't have the
: > luxury of learning to operate 237 different spelling checkers, we
: > do have spelling checkers in our software!
: >
: about? The Falcon is a throw away wedge piece of litter, get over it!
:
: > : The tiny niche Falcon market is too small to attract much
: >
: > There is a good selection of software that runs on the Falcon,
: > just check out the 56-page catalog from Toad Computers or look
: > at all the advertisements in ST Informer.
:
:
: >
: > : and the fact that the Falcon isn't even close to being
: >
: > 80% of existing ST software runs on the Falcon and you claim
: > that it "...isn't even close to being 'totally compatible' with
: > it's predecessors"? I disagree!
:
: >
: > : Having said that, what is going to convince software devlopers to produce
: >
: > 1. Because the Falcon hardware is still in production.
:
: > 2. Because the Falcon is still being actively marketed.
: What continent?
:
: > 3. Because the new software already available is leading edge stuff.
: And what is leading edge? Screen saver?
:
: > 4. Because Atari owners enjoy their platform and support each other.
: Sounds kinky to me.
:
: > 5. Because clones of the Atari computer are becoming available.
: >
:
: Are you sure that the above does not apply to other platforms. Again, what
: planet are you on! So, you are going to reccommend to a new user to
: standardize on a obsolete platform?
:
: > : > Is it likely that Clone/Mac owners will still have new useful
: What planet are you on?
:
: >
: > : Relative to new, innovative designs, all current computers
: > : this?
: >
: > Not immune, just resistant.
: >
: > : The very fact that you believe so clearly illustrates how unrealistic
: > : your arguments are.
: >
: > Some people buy a computer to "follow the crowd" or to "impress their
: > friends" or even to "get free software from work". I chose my computer
: > because it was the most cost-effective way to accomplish my task. What
: > is realistic to me is clearly not realistic to you.
: Like my $999 Mac that does the job wonderful!
:
:
: > Do we agree to disagree on this matter, or shall we go around again?
: >
: > -- George
:
: Falcon...computer or religious cult? On the next edition of Geraldo!
:
:
: BeBox(?)
:
sincl...@cobra.uni.edu
> qui...@news.sfu.ca (Brian Quinlan) wrote:
>>guen...@cabal.shnet.org (Thorsten Guenther) writes:
>>
>>>Does a PPC machine have a standard digital IO port for the standard
> DSP?
>>
>>The PowerPC doesn't need a DSP to process digital signals to acheive
> Falcon
>>equivalent performance since processor is fast enough to do it itself. I
>>could of course be proven wrong if you give me function that the Falcon
> can
>>do and the Mac can't. And what do you mean my "standard digital IO"?
>
> such as fiber optic digital to digital signal devices into.
> CD-Roms with fiber optic I/O and DAT decks come to
> mind. There is also a 8 channel 16track output device that can be
> connected there as well. I'm not even a "Musco" and I know that.
> I think you would have to do some soldering on you PPC or purchase an
> interface card (if such a beast exist) to have that type of "option"
> on you PPC :) The old AV's had DSP chips but I don't recall if they were
> externally accessable.Probably best to just break down and buy
> a C-Lab Falcon. Then you could learn something in this newsgroup
> instead of bashing it. And I don't want to hear the crap about
> how expensive the Falcons are. I just visited the Mac for sale
> group, and even the old 040's (800,900,950,840's) are going for
> more than a new C-Lab Falcon with 4/350 and Cubase thrown in from
> Toad.
Comparing an overpriced outdated slow Falcon with out expandable slots
to 040 Towers! Have you seen the $1399 Performa 631 and $1699 Performa 6116
complete with cdrom, monitor, modem, keyboard and software bundle?
The Falcon is expensive!
>
> Did I miss anything? You most certainly have. Tell me the truth.
> Did you purchase or upgrade all of your Mac software to take
> advantage of the PPC or are you happy running as if you had
> a Quadra?
Current apps are being shipped in both versions in the same box! Some may have
upgraded all or partial..
>
> Mike
>>
>>--
>>
>>Brian Quinlan
>>qui...@sfu.ca
sincl...@cobra.uni.edu
> In article <1995Oct19.2...@cobra.uni.edu>,
> <sincl...@cobra.uni.edu> wrote:
>>something that has failed!
>>
> bullshit you want, but if you're going to tell a lie you could do better than
> this. Ah, I forgot, the little librarian is too stupid to think for himself...
What is this mythical web browser? Sounds like a insecure Atari Jihad..
>
> /Christer
Atari Jihad...not as powerful as Iran, but equaly Fanatical!
Michael Grove
>can do. It's just that a DSP can do some functions faster than the
>processor.
>
>benchmarks the 60Mhz 601 (the absolute slowest) was just BARELY beaten
>by a 40-MHz 68040 and a 66MHz AT&T DSP. The Falcon does not, of
>course, have a 40-MHz 68040 or a 66MHz DSP.
You must. I use an 040/40 and while it's running the Mac OS, the
Falcon is compairable in speed. Now if your running the Mac with
MagicC, that's another story. We're not talking CPU benchmarks here.
If you can't open the car door as fast as the other guy, he'll
probably beat you to the end of the mile. In other words, I'll bet
I can boot my Falcon and load a 100K .JPG quicker than you can on
your PPC. I'll go even further.I'll bet I can do the above, digitize
1 minutes of 180*100 16bit color video and save it off to where even
a PC can view the file. Oh, ya, it will be a much higher quality
than QT too. It will also be a LOT less expensive than the Mac options.
So, where do we draw the line at which machine is the fastest? Which
is the best? Let me see now... I can still buy a Falcon. The software
is still very well supported. I can get hardware and software second
or even next day. I think I just talked my self into a C-Lab Falcon.
I've been pondering the idea for a while, and Toad will throw in
Cubase for a song <grin> so what the hell. Now i'll have two. And
I think i'll keep my 1040 and my Mega. The 486 does this net stuff
pretty good, so it can stay. If I can ever get the MacMall to send
me my fu*king fries, I'd be happy.
Have fun this winter,
Mike
Michael Grove
>>> True, my 636 8/250/cd is no longer manufactured because Apple
>>>replaced it with a 8/500/cd one.
>> THAT I'd call discontinued . . .
>
>Same model with a beafier harddrive.
Mark Rathwell
Probably not. But even if you could, you wouldn't know because
you've never looked.
: If you are a Falcon owner, how do you upgrade to something higher?
Read a few ST magazines.
: versions. What is your point? You can't even find ST software localy.
We doesn't live in your hick-town. He probably has no problem
buying stuff for his Falcon.
: Ah, a selling point.>..But you still have that mushy keyboard!
How would you know? You've never seen a Falcon, let alone typed
on one.
>> Mark <<
--
==============================================================================
Mark Rathwell = "The bubblehead beach blond comes on at five.
= She can tell you about the plane crash with a
The Universiy Of Guelph = gleam in her eye."
= - Don Henley
mrat...@uoguelph.ca =
==============================================================================
George Crissman - Ferran Scientific
51 Pegasus, the one and only Peter Sinclair-Day (sincl...@cobra.uni.edu)
wrote:
: In article <461qau$g...@news3.cts.com>, dfe...@crash.cts.com
:(George Crissman - Ferran Scientific) writes:
: > The level-headed James Wood (jam...@PEAK.ORG) wrote:
: > : > On other platforms (Mac or Clone), it's not unreasonable to
: > : > purchase a *brand* *new* $2500.00 machine every four years.
: > : > Even then, you must add some "optional extras" to the base machine
: > : > just to make it suitable for use.
: It's not unreasonable to spend $1500 for a Dell Pentium and Mac 631cd one as
: well. Doesn't the Falcon cost $1900 fully loaded?
If you're talking "fully loaded", then $1500 for Dell or Mac is too low.
Fully loaded Dells and Macs are easily $2500, and during this weekend I've
seen some "ultimate clone systems" at *discounter* Incredible Universe for
$3000.00.
Get a fully-loaded Falcon and save $1100.00. And get a more-efficient
operating system. And associate with a great group of computer
enthusiasts.
: > The '486 is dated technology (they're even sneering at it on the talk
: > shows here in San Diego), and 8 megs isn't really suitable for anything
: > more than casual use (...if you're running Microsoft Windows, that is...).
: And the expensive Falcon is not?
[assuming he means "not dated"]: It's been around for a year or so,
so that makes it an "established" machine. And with the availability
of the DirecTT, Medusa, and Eagle it may be replaced by these faster,
compatible machines in the next few years.
: > We'll probably hear from sinclap on the matter <g>. However, it takes
: > a MacIntosh running a better processor and double-or-faster clock speed
: > to equal the performance of the comparable Atari machine.
: Oh, please! Are you comparing a PPC Mac running Photoshop to a ST
: running a screen saver? What a comparison. You can't even compare
: because the ST/Falcon is soo behind.
No, I'm referring to the benchmarking done by Digital Equipment
Corporation several years back when they unveiled their "Alpha Processor"
system. Completion times were:
Apple Mac Quadra 12 seconds
Clone 486/66 MHz 6 seconds
DEC Alpha 5 seconds
Atari was running the same benchmark on the Falcon in 4 seconds.
Obviously, I'm being generous to the Mac when I say it only needs
a better processor and double-or-faster clock speed.
: > : > Is it likely that new Falcon owners will still have new useful
: > : > applications for their existing machines in eight years? Yes!
: >
: Yea, right.. The Falcon lacks a web browser! Its your right to hold onto
: something that has failed!
Not only is there an on-line web browser, there is also an OFF-line
web browser for the Falcon. Do your development work offline or view
your stored favorite page offline and save on connect cost!
: Forgot web browsers,
Nope....
: games,
That's what Jaguars and Clones are for. (I've never met anyone who
felt the Mac was a serious contender in the game machine category. :-)
: and multimedia apps
You mean like Apex Media and Expose?
: ...Doesn't take a genius to figure out to spend as much money on
: the dead Falcon to the other cheaper platforms that have a wealth
: of apps and hardware!
The other platforms are cheaper because they don't offer all that the
Falcon offers. That was demonstrated above.
: Again, what planet are you on?
This is why I suspect your internet connection is from the newly
discovered planet orbiting the star "51 Pegasus". I'm here on earth
and well-grounded, thank you.
: GET WITH THE PROGRAM!
Ah, yes. "ReBoot!" Lovely eye-candy, clever computer in-jokes,
and plotlines that always manage something unexpected. It really
should be a prime-time show.
: > My guess is that you'll only need one or two applications in any
: > given category. Surprise! Falcon owners can choose from several
: > applications in each category as well. While we don't have the
: > luxury of learning to operate 237 different spelling checkers, we
: > do have spelling checkers in our software!
: >
: Who needs to learn on how to operate spell checkers?
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Or grammar checkers <g>.
: > There is a good selection of software that runs on the Falcon,
: > just check out the 56-page catalog from Toad Computers or look
: > at all the advertisements in ST Informer.
: 56 pages of Falcon stuff? I don't think soo. I have a Toad catalog..
That's what "compatibility" is all about! Software written for
the ST runs just fine on the Falcon. Are you implying that each
new MacIntosh model causes the existing catalog of Mac software to
become obsolete?
: > : Having said that, what is going to convince software devlopers to
: > : produce for the Falcon in 8 years? I'd like to know why you
: > : believe that, honestly.
: >
: > 1. Because the Falcon hardware is still in production.
: Not by Atari..
Atari designed, C-Lab produced (with improvements!).
: > 2. Because the Falcon is still being actively marketed.
: What continent?
Europe, United States, etc.
: > 3. Because the new software already available is leading edge stuff.
: And what is leading edge? Screen saver?
Multimedia. Are Macs users still entranced by screen savers?
: Are you sure that the above does not apply to other platforms.
There's a good chance it *does* apply to other platforms. Does that
mean all the other platforms are as objectionable to you as the Falcon?
: Again, what planet are you on!
Earth. Is there a name for the planet you're on, or is it still
"the planet orbiting 51 Pegasus"?
: So, you are going to reccommend to a new user to standardize on a
: obsolete platform? ^^^^^^^^^^
See also:
: Who needs to learn on how to operate spell checkers?
^^^^^^^^^^^^
If you're asking if I'll recommend an under-performing Mac to a new
user, the answer will be "it depends on the support". New users are
normally confused and just a bit scared of their machines, and what
they need most is someone to guide them through.
I help new users with clones, macs, unix, and atari systems. And you?
: What a bunch of bull. I paid $999 for my machine and came with
: lots of apps.
Try to buy new software for it in four years. Most likely, your machine
won't be capable of running it. Most of the new Atari software runs on
the ST just fine.
: What planet are you on?
Still here on planet earth.
Did you know that the inner planet at 51 Pegasus completely revolves
around it's sun every 5.4 earth days? Such a short year would tend
to cause an excessive proliferation of new computer models (the "annual
product launch" concept) ... just like Apple's MacIntosh line ... hmm,
I think we're *on* to something, here!
: > Some people buy a computer to "follow the crowd" or to "impress their
: > friends" or even to "get free software from work". I chose my computer
: > because it was the most cost-effective way to accomplish my task. What
: > is realistic to me is clearly not realistic to you.
: >
: Like my $999 Mac that does the job wonderful!
That's what it all comes down to! If you're happy with it based on
your own criteria, then it's the machine for you. Our difference of
opinion is based on what we expect from our computers.
: > Do we agree to disagree on this matter, or shall we go around again?
: >
: > -- George
-- George
Brian Quinlan
>But the Falcon DSP does not waste it's time running MacOS.
>The Falcon DSP is usually directly accessed, not via OS.
Neither is the Mac's DSP. The operating system only provides one API routine
for the DSP, a routine that checks to see if you actually have one. Other
API routines may use the DSP if you have one but the way the DSP is set up
only one program can use it at a time. That means the MacOS will not burn
up DSP cycles when your program is using it.
>The Falcon DSP has a digital port for IO.
Did we decide that the GeoPort doesn't count? It's definately digital, it
definately does IO. What else does it need to be as good as the Falcon's?
>In short: the Falcon gives the musician more than the Mac at a lower cost.
If you make this statement because of your three other points then you
might want to reconsider.
--
Brian Quinlan
qui...@sfu.ca
Brian Quinlan
>>This is were you are wrong. The processor can do anything that the DSP
>>can do. It's just that a DSP can do some functions faster than the
>>processor.
>
>Nope, your wrong.
Then please provide me with an example where the DSP can do something that
the processor can't.
>So you are saying the Falcon is as fast or faster than a 601 60mhz?
>You must. I use an 040/40 and while it's running the Mac OS, the
>Falcon is compairable in speed. Now if your running the Mac with
>MagicC, that's another story. We're not talking CPU benchmarks here.
>If you can't open the car door as fast as the other guy, he'll
>probably beat you to the end of the mile. In other words, I'll bet
>I can boot my Falcon and load a 100K .JPG quicker than you can on
>your PPC. I'll go even further.I'll bet I can do the above, digitize
>1 minutes of 180*100 16bit color video and save it off to where even
>a PC can view the file. Oh, ya, it will be a much higher quality
>than QT too. It will also be a LOT less expensive than the Mac options.
[price stuff deleted]
Sorry, since we where talking about hardware I assumed that any benchmarks
would include the hardware only. I will concede that the Falcon would restart
and load a 100K .JPG faster than my Mac. That's because the Atari boots
faster than the mac. If all we had to do is double click on the JPG then,
assuming similar JPG viewers, I claim that the PPC would be faster. The
digitizing example seems silly. It can only take 1 minute to digitize 1
minute of video. The Mac uses it's own file system while the Atari borrows the
PCs so obviously the Atari should be faster at saving onto PC media (if I
understood your point). And, not to flame, but a lot of people don't seem
to understand exactly what QT is. QT is an engine not a format. QT will play
back any video file as long as there is a plug-in for it. The normal plugins
are MPEG, cinepak, animation, component video, YUV and JPEG (just a file
that has each frame stored in JPEG). So, for example, if your Falcon is
digitizing into MPEG format and you compare it to a Mac digitizing cinepak
then the Falcons will look better. Cinepak is the usual mac format because
it is usually smaller than MPEG. But, if you want quality and have the
disk space, go for uncompressed. That will be the best possible quality.
A better benchmark would be "how many fps can you capture in 24-bit mode,
a 320x240 movie, saving direct to disk, using on-the-fly compression into
MPEG?" or something like that.
--
Brian Quinlan
qui...@sfu.ca
azog
: If you're talking "fully loaded", then $1500 for Dell or Mac is too low.
: Fully loaded Dells and Macs are easily $2500, and during this weekend I've
: seen some "ultimate clone systems" at *discounter* Incredible Universe for
: $3000.00.
I have to agree with this. We are puchasing about $30,000 worth of the
following Dell systems:
Dell XL575 75MHz Pentium
16mb of RAM
540mb hard drive
15" Sony Trinitron monitor
Keyboard, mouse
Sound card built into the system board
Altech Lansing speakers
CD-ROM
3c5x9 Ethernet also built into the system board
Win95
Etc
The total price was $2700.00, AFTER discount. When you drop the multimedia
equipment, and get the CTX monitor, then you are approaching $2200.
But, I must qualify this purchase, that it is the "corperate" line,
meaning that you are "guarenteed" consistancy of components, no
matter what. ie: all systems ordered with 540mb will have WD Caviers.
They sell a "personal" line, which is probably $500 cheaper, but you
don't get the consistancy.
Unless one wants to spend money on the absolute bottom of the line
equipment, you honestly can't get under $2,000 when building a
Pentium machine.
(the consistancy factor is important when one has to juggle hundreds
of systems in widely spaced areas).
Frieder Guy
AARGH!!!!!!!!! It didn't save my edited changes, so here goes again.
: sincl...@cobra.uni.edu wrote:
: : In article <461qau$g...@news3.cts.com>, dfe...@crash.cts.com (George Crissman - Ferran Scientific) writes:
: : > The level-headed James Wood (jam...@PEAK.ORG) wrote:
: : >
: : > : On 13 Oct 1995, George Crissman - Ferran Scientific wrote:
: : > : > Just about anything you buy will depreciate in value so the
: : > : > question isn't about "resale value". The real question is
: : > : > "how much will it cost to do what I want to do?" In the eight
: : > : > years I've owned my ST, I think I've spent maybe $2500.00 on
: : > : > application software and hardware upgrades to stay current.
Ditto
: : >
: : > : Every consumer commodity has a resale value. You may not like to think
: : > : about it, yet it does exist. Whether it's an automobile or a vacuum
: : > : cleaner, there exists a market for second-hand products. To deny this is
: : > : amongst the most specious of all arguements I've ever heard.
: : >
: : > Aw, c'mon -- where did I deny the existance of a second-hand market?
: : > The whole concept of depreciation is based on how much money you can
: : > get for reselling an item. And my point was: how much does it cost
: : > to accomplish the task at hand with the equipment you need? And I
: : > demonstrated that it was *significantly* less expensive with an Atari.
I agree totally
: : >
: : > : > On other platforms (Mac or Clone), it's not unreasonable to
: : > : > purchase a *brand* *new* $2500.00 machine every four years.
: : > : > Even then, you must add some "optional extras" to the base machine
: : > : > just to make it suitable for use.
: :
: : It's not unreasonable to spend $1500 for a Dell Pentium and Mac 631cd one as
: : well. Doesn't the Falcon cost $1900 fully loaded?
$1900 New Zealand maybe. (NZ$1=approx US$0.50
: :
: :
: : >
: : > : Computer Shopper is filled with fully-loaded 486/66Mhz/80Mhz/100MHz+
: : > : systems for around half that (if not less) and they are fully-loaded with
: : > : CD-ROMs and sound and 8megs and software and certainly not lacking for
: : > : "options to make it suitable for use." Once again, someone needs to make
: : > : better observations. Yes, I loaded Pentium might cost that, but it's a
: : > : damn fast computer and a clock-multiplied 486 is still bang-for-buck champ.
: : >
: : > The '486 is dated technology (they're even sneering at it on the talk
: : > shows here in San Diego), and 8 megs isn't really suitable for anything
: : > more than casual use (...if you're running Microsoft Windows, that is...).
: : >
The anything86 series is dated technology, like about 20 years out of
date - the 486 is just a very overclocked XT.
: :
: : And the expensive Falcon is not?
: :
Only about 2 years not 20
: : > : I've also seen fully-loaded Mac systems at/around $1000-$1200, but I
: : > : don't know enough about them to elaborate.
: : >
: : > We'll probably hear from sinclap on the matter <g>. However, it takes
: : > a MacIntosh running a better processor and double-or-faster clock speed
: : > to equal the performance of the comparable Atari machine.
: :
: : Oh, please! Are you comparing a PPC Mac running Photoshop to a ST running a
: : screen saver? What a comparison. You can't even compare because the ST/Falcon
: : is soo behind.
: :
Stop being pathetic! Comparing a PPC Mac running Photoshop to a Falcon
running APEX Media is the sort of thing.
: : >
: : > : > Clearly, my total cost of ownership is MUCH less when I compare
: : > : > my ST to the other alternatives available at the time of my
: : > : > original purchase: the IBM PC/AT or the Apple MacIntosh+.
At the time the Atari ST kicked butt of everything else about for the
price, I got mine for running Notator SL. And now the Falcon is the one
to compare. Very nice and no hidden costs either.
: : >
: : > : I agree; that's why I bought the ST. However, if there is ever a system
: : > : with hidden costs to make it "suitable for use," it's the ST. By the
: : > : time one adds new TOS, 4-megs of RAM, 1.44 floppy, etc.etc.etc they're
: : > : way in over the cost of a competing platform and would have to give it away.
: : >
: : > TOS Upgrade: $59.00
Get multi-tos, or mint + a desktop replacement - FREE for desktop
replacement, just find a BBS which has one
: : > Floppy Upgrade: $100.00
$100 New Zealand maybe
: : > RAM Upgrade: $100.00 plus RAM (same cost on all platforms)
: : > -------
: : > $259.00
: : >
: : > (source: Toad Computers catalog)
: : >
: : > : > Is it likely that new Falcon owners will still have new useful
: : > : > applications for their existing machines in eight years? Yes!
: : >
: : Yea, right.. The Falcon lacks a web browser! Its your right to hold onto
: : something that has failed!
The Falcon has a web browser. Even the 520 ST has a web browser.
: :
: : > : There will be very few "new Falcon owners" TODAY, let alone 8 years from
: : > : now. What planet are you on? The great dearth of Falcon software has
: : > : been the bane of the Falcon (and most Atari products) since its
: : > : introduction.
The planet is Earth and stop being pathetic.
: : >
: : > "Lots of software" is always comforting, but how many of the 45
: : > Clone spreadsheets do you actually need? How many of the 237 Clone
: : > word processors do you actually need? How many of the 68 Clone
: : > databases do you actually need?
: :
: : Forgot web browsers, games and multimedia apps...Doesn't take a genius to
: : figure out to spend as much money on the dead Falcon to the other cheaper
: : platforms that have a wealth of apps and hardware! Again, what planet are you
: : on? GET WITH THE PROGRAM!
: :
Earth idiot. And the apps for the Falcon are cheaper than the apps for
the PC.
: : >
: : > My guess is that you'll only need one or two applications in any
: : > given category. Surprise! Falcon owners can choose from several
: : > applications in each category as well. While we don't have the
: : > luxury of learning to operate 237 different spelling checkers, we
: : > do have spelling checkers in our software!
: : >
: : Who needs to learn on how to operate spell checkers? What are you babbling
: : about? The Falcon is a throw away wedge piece of litter, get over it!
: :
Try dumping the PC, the Falcon kicks butt.
: : > : The tiny niche Falcon market is too small to attract much
: : > : software development,
: : >
: : > There is a good selection of software that runs on the Falcon,
: : > just check out the 56-page catalog from Toad Computers or look
: : > at all the advertisements in ST Informer.
: :
: : 56 pages of Falcon stuff? I don't think soo. I have a Toad catalog..
: :
15000 archives of Falcon stuff on one of the net sites so don't give us
that crap. It doesn't have to be commercial to be good on the Atari, in
fact the commercial stuff on the PC is worse than some of the PD Atari stuff
: : >
: : > : and the fact that the Falcon isn't even close to being
: : > : "totally compatible" with its predecessors makes matters worse.
: : >
: : > 80% of existing ST software runs on the Falcon and you claim
: : > that it "...isn't even close to being 'totally compatible' with
: : > it's predecessors"? I disagree!
: : He he he
: :
Even though 80% of the software for ST's works, who needs it when there
is heaps already for the Falcon
: : >
: : > : Having said that, what is going to convince software devlopers to produce
: : > : for the Falcon in 8 years? I'd like to know why you believe that, honestly.
: : >
: : > 1. Because the Falcon hardware is still in production.
: : Not by Atari..
By C-LAB, the best company for musical things in the world including the
Falcon. Heard of the C-LAB Falcon 040?
: :
: : > 2. Because the Falcon is still being actively marketed.
: : What continent?
Australia, some parts of Europe
: :
: : > 3. Because the new software already available is leading edge stuff.
: : And what is leading edge? Screen saver?
Stop being pathetic. APEX Media, Atari Works, Notator Logic Audio
: :
: : > 4. Because Atari owners enjoy their platform and support each other.
: : Sounds kinky to me.
Stop being pathetic. It's true and friendly not kinky.
: :
: : > 5. Because clones of the Atari computer are becoming available.
: : >
: :
: : Are you sure that the above does not apply to other platforms. Again, what
: : planet are you on! So, you are going to reccommend to a new user to
: : standardize on a obsolete platform?
: :
: : > : > Is it likely that Clone/Mac owners will still have new useful
: : > : > applications for their existing machines in eight years? No.
: : >
: : > : Ha!! 8 years is an eternity in this industry. However, there are so
: : > : many Clones and Macs out there (than other designs) that I'm sure there
: : > : will still be a market.
EXISTING MACHINES not NEW machines ie you would have to buy another 2
computers to keep up with the software market.
: : >
: : > Go ahead and wander down to a CompUSA or a Computer City and try to
: : > buy some new software that will run on an IBM PC/AT or an Apple
: : > MacIntosh+. You can't!
: : >
: : > Then check the recent software offerings for the Atari computers
: : > and you'll see that a lot of it will run on an 8-year-old ST.
: : > That's why it's cheaper to perform a task on an Atari instead of
: : > a Clone or an Apple.
Agreed.
: : >
: : > A: > If you're looking to avoid planned obsolescence, get a Falcon.
: : >
: : > : What are you saying? Just because the Falcon was the "flagship" of the
: : > : Atari line and they quit making computers after it, then it will always
: : > : be a "flagship" and thus have eternal status as such?
The Enterprise is the flagship of the Star Trek series, and guess what
they did? Upgraded existing designs. So you get the Falcon 030, then the
Falcon 040, 060 etc etc
: : >
: : > Nope. I'm saying that it's much more likely that when new software
: : > is released 8 years from now it will run on today's Falcon, based
: : > on the fact that new software released today will run on an
: : > 8-year-old Atari ST.
Agreed
: : >
: : > : Just because my 486/80Mhz isn't the fastest PeeCee there is,
: : > : it's automatically obsolete? I rather doubt the latter.
Try PieceofCrap. It is dated technology because it is 1970's technology,
just over clocked and sped up
: : >
: : > That's the word on the street. 486's are out, Pentiums are in.
: : >
: : > : I'm not the type of person who HAS TO HAVE the "latest and
: : > : the greatest."
: : >
: : > True. But you *do* have to own a machine that will run the software
: : > you buy. That's where Clones and Apples put you at a disadvantage.
: : >
: : > : I suppose if that is your sole
: : > : criteria for purchase, you could see things that way. I really don't
: : > : care what the fastest new Pentium/Pro is. When my current machine fails
: : > : to serve me, I'll have to sell it or toss it in a shitbox and get a new
: : > : computer.
Try the latter now and get a Falcon.
: : >
: : > That's what I said originally! Cloners need to spend about $2500.00
: : > every four years to perform their task, while I've only had to spend
: : > $2500.00 in *eight* years. It's cheaper to perform the task with an
: : > Atari computer.
: :
: : What a bunch of bull. I paid $999 for my machine and came with lots of apps.
: : What planet are you on?
: :
Earth idiot. What planet are you on?
: : >
: : > : Relative to new, innovative designs, all current computers
: : > : will become obsolete. What makes you think the Falcon is immune to
: : > : this?
: : >
: : > Not immune, just resistant.
: : >
: : > : The very fact that you believe so clearly illustrates how unrealistic
: : > : your arguments are.
: : >
: : > Some people buy a computer to "follow the crowd" or to "impress their
: : > friends" or even to "get free software from work". I chose my computer
: : > because it was the most cost-effective way to accomplish my task. What
: : > is realistic to me is clearly not realistic to you.
: : >
: : Like my $999 Mac that does the job wonderful!
: :
: : Falcon...computer or religious cult? On the next edition of Geraldo!
: :
Decent computer.
: :
: : Saying Windows 95 is equal to Macintosh is like finding a potato that looks
: : like Jesus and believing you've witnessed the second comming.
: :
Saying a Macintosh is equal to a Falcon is like finding a shit that looks
like Jesus and believing you've witnessed the second coming.
Henrik Lunardi Weide
> In article <468fbp$1...@nyheter.chalmers.se>, d2...@dtek.chalmers.se (Christer Gustavsson) writes:
> > In article <1995Oct19.2...@cobra.uni.edu>,
> > <sincl...@cobra.uni.edu> wrote:
>
> What is this mythical web browser? Sounds like a insecure Atari Jihad..
>
to v.1.07.
- And it's freeware.
>
> Atari Jihad...not as powerful as Iran, but equaly Fanatical!
Peter Sinclair-Day...not as powerful as Saddam, but equaly stupid.
Sorry - just couldn't resist..... You know how that feels......
Keep Cool and Flying....
ChainXOR...
Michael Grove
>In article <461n07$f...@news3.cts.com>, dfe...@crash.cts.com (George
>> time) the one and only Peter Sinclair-Day (sincl...@cobra.uni.edu)
>> wrote a lot and managed to communicate:
>>
>> : The Falcon is a discontinued model from Atari.
>>
>> Not true. It has been licensed to C-Lab and is still available.
>
>>
>> :Atari no longer manufactures and supports it.
>>
>> This much is true.
>>
>> : Apple also announced a $699 6300 logic board upgrade for the 630
>> : series and 6200 series. I am tempted.
>>
>> In prior years, Atari owners claimed you could get an whole new
>> computer for the cost of an "upgrade" on other platforms. Since
>> the base C-Lab Falcon is still available for $799.00, it looks
>> like this claim remains true.
>
can do, not what it can't. Don't de stupid.
>
>>
>> And as a bonus, you get a much more efficient operating system,
>> scads of standard built-in ports, a DSP, room for a $59.00 math
>> coprocessor, and compatibility with a software base extending back
>> ten years or so.
>
>Efficient OS?..behind the times..Can't do much..And I don't have
zillions of
>ports in the back? My software is updated soo often using 20th
genration
idea what your talking about.
>>
>> Plus: Like other Atari computers, the Falcon doesn't catch fire.
>
Michael Grove
>Michael Grove <mgr...@owens.ridgecrest.ca.us> writes:
>
>>I'm not concerned with the PPC. It will still only run 040 software
>>at Quadra/Performa speeds. Main-stream users will not change their
>>whole software selection just to be almost as fast as a Pentium.
>>And those that do probably should have purchased a DOS, err.. WIN 95
>>box in the first place. Poor misguided souls.
>
>A 604 PowerMac can run 040 software faster than any Quadra, including
the
>Q840AV.
a 040/33mhz.
And you don't have to change you software just to get PPC software.
>All the current releases of major software have included a PPC version.
upgrade or purchase new software.
>if you use a PC then you might have to use Windoze...
>
Screw Microsoft
>
>Brian Quinlan
>qui...@sfu.ca
sincl...@cobra.uni.edu
>
>>Who needs to learn on how to operate spell checkers?
>
>
> Hey, this was the correct answer, what have I won?
A smack in the head...
>
>>I paid $999 for my machine and came with lots of apps.
>
> You came with lots of apps?
It came with lots of apps, goodies, one year warranty, 10 free hours of
E-World..
>
> BTW, you apparently bought a crappy cheap non-expandable Mac, right?
> I mean, the PDS is occupied with either a gfx board or McSTout or ...
> you can't have two expansions at the same time.
>
Like the falcon has expandibility...I have a PDS, communication slot for modem
or ethernet, video slot and a tv tuner slot.. Plus there is a $699 6300 logic
board upgrade.
> What are you proud of? Not to have bought a 7500?
>
No, my brother has a 7500. I will stick with the 636 for now. Rumors are that
in any day now, PowerComputing will announce 604 Powermacs starting at $2000!
> Thorsten
>
>
>
> --
> - guen...@cabal.shnet.org (Thorsten Günther) -
> ------------------------------------------------
> - Es ist Ralph Babel ausdrücklich untersagt, -
> - diesen Artikel zu archivieren. -
BeBox(?)
Peter Sinclair-Day Macintosh Performa 636
University of Northern Iowa PowerBook 150
Graduate School of Library/Curriculum and Information Science
Http://w3.nai.net/~asincla/home.htm
Saying Windows 95 is equal to Macintosh is like finding a potato that looks
like Jesus and believing you've witnessed the second comming.
sincl...@cobra.uni.edu
> In <1995Oct19.2...@cobra.uni.edu> sincl...@cobra.uni.edu wrote:
>>> : The Falcon is a discontinued model from Atari.
>>>
>>> Not true. It has been licensed to C-Lab and is still available.
>>
>>Can I buy one localy?
>
Doesn't answer my question..
sincl...@cobra.uni.edu
> : Can I buy one localy? The Falcon has been discontinued by Atari.
>
> Probably not. But even if you could, you wouldn't know because
> you've never looked.
>
> : If you are a Falcon owner, how do you upgrade to something higher?
>
> Read a few ST magazines.
What ST magazines? My newstand does not have any..
>
> : versions. What is your point? You can't even find ST software localy.
>
> We doesn't live in your hick-town. He probably has no problem
> buying stuff for his Falcon.
100,000 in population!
>
> : Ah, a selling point.>..But you still have that mushy keyboard!
>
> How would you know? You've never seen a Falcon, let alone typed
> on one.
Nope, but an ST! I saw the ST's at Derric electronic in Hamden Connecticut a
long time ago.
>
> >> Mark <<
>
> --
> ==============================================================================
> Mark Rathwell = "The bubblehead beach blond comes on at five.
> = She can tell you about the plane crash with a
> The Universiy Of Guelph = gleam in her eye."
> = - Don Henley
> mrat...@uoguelph.ca =
> ==============================================================================
Peter Sinclair-Day Macintosh Performa 636
University of Northern Iowa PowerBook 150
Graduate School of Library/Curriculum and Information Science
Http://w3.nai.net/~asincla/home.htm
We're in the clutches of a bunch of folks trying to turn the U.S. into a
third world country. Two hundred billionaires and 260 million poor people.
And they haven't done enough damage yet to be beaten.
Garrison Keillor on the Republican Congress.......
Kevin Haley
>> BTW, you apparently bought a crappy cheap non-expandable Mac, right?
>> I mean, the PDS is occupied with either a gfx board or McSTout or ...
>> you can't have two expansions at the same time.
>Like the falcon has expandibility...I have a PDS, communication slot for modem
>or ethernet, video slot and a tv tuner slot.. Plus there is a $699 6300 logic
>board upgrade.
Oh, joy! You got a communication slot! Is something like that a
commodity for Apple owners?
What type of processor is in your system? Memory? Hard disk? What's
the speed of the aformentioned?
>> What are you proud of? Not to have bought a 7500?
>No, my brother has a 7500. I will stick with the 636 for now. Rumors are that
>in any day now, PowerComputing will announce 604 Powermacs starting at $2000!
Oh, gosh! Apple is planning on introducing a machine with some decent
power for under $2000! Huh? What's that? They've already missed the
boat?
> Peter Sinclair-Day Macintosh Performa 636
> University of Northern Iowa PowerBook 150
>
> Saying Windows 95 is equal to Macintosh is like finding a potato that looks
>like Jesus and believing you've witnessed the second comming.
> -Guy Kawasaki
The fact that this guy is comparing an operating system to a
machine really tells you something.
L67...@lmsc5.is.lmsc.lockheed.com
Atari stock (symbol ATC on the American Stock Exchange) tumbled like a rock tod
ay to 2-1/4, down 7/16 from the day before. That's a lot. One major instituti
onal investor sold 6 million shares today, which is more than 10% of the public
holdings. WHAT GIVES? Anybody have a clue?
Signed - a concerned Atari Stock holder
Brian Quinlan
>> Saying Windows 95 is equal to Macintosh is like finding a potato that looks
>>like Jesus and believing you've witnessed the second comming.
>> -Guy Kawasaki
>The fact that this guy is comparing an operating system to a
>machine really tells you something.
While a lot of stuff he says may annoy the crap out of me, he is a pretty
smart guy <-- pun intended :)
--
Brian Quinlan
qui...@sfu.ca
azog
: > But, I must qualify this purchase, that it is the "corperate" line,
: > meaning that you are "guarenteed" consistancy of components, no
: > matter what. ie: all systems ordered with 540mb will have WD Caviers.
: > They sell a "personal" line, which is probably $500 cheaper, but you
: > don't get the consistancy.
: What is this consistancy? Are Falcons guaranteed consistancy?
Falcons are consistant, altho it is unstated. The original Falcon
had a 65mb (forget the manufacturer), and the last production
run had Connor 85mb drives. Since the RAM boards are propriatary,
that doesn't count.
: >
: > Unless one wants to spend money on the absolute bottom of the line
: > equipment, you honestly can't get under $2,000 when building a
: > Pentium machine.
: I guess GateWay and Compaq are bottom of the line...
You said it, not me. Our company has purchased several vendors systems
before we decided upon Dell. These include IBM, Hewlett Packard, Gateway
Compaq, and one other I cannot remember off the top of my head.
Mark Rathwell
Check in specialty magazine shops. I can find ST mags in my
hometown and here too.
: 100,000 in population!
Hick-town.
: Nope, but an ST! I saw the ST's at Derric electronic in Hamden Connecticut a
: long time ago.
Gee Pete ... that's what I really call scrutinization of a
product. "I saw one in a store once a long time ago." And that's a really
good way to judge an upgrade. I suppose all Macs still have 128K, based
on that first MAC I saw in 1985? Gee ... do they have color graphics yet?
>> Mark <<
--
==============================================================================
Mark Rathwell = "Who would have thought a good little girl like you
= could have destroyed all of my beautiful
The Universiy Of Guelph = wickedness?"
= "Summertime came too soon, summers in Kansas
mrat...@uoguelph.ca = often do. And the air was still, I felt the pull"
==============================================================================
Brian Quinlan
>Gosh, you want to discuss discontinued and never well-supported features
>of _two_ (also discontinued) Macs?
Not really. If I remember correctly, the argument went something like
as fallows:
Someone - The PPC Macs cannot be as cool as the Falcon because they do not
have a DSP. A DSP is required to perform specific tasks.
Me - A DSP is just a processor designed to do specific tasks quickly.
The PPC processor is fast enough to do these tasks itself. For
example the Q840AV is just slightly faster than a 6100/60 when
using it's DSP.
Someone - Liar! A DSP can do things that a processor cannot.
Me - Please provide an example.
Someone - Since the 6100/60 is almost as fast as the Q840AV and the Falcon
is faster than the 6100/60 then the Q840AV must have an inferior
DSP implementation. Comment: This is good reasoning if you accept
the premises.
Me - [A description of the AV 68K macs DSP system.]
You - Why are we discussing this?
>...and AFAIK the 660av doesn't have one. That leaves the 840av to
>discuss.
Actually, the 660av did have one.
>Cubase Audio 16
Isn't Cubase Audio available for the Mac?
--
Brian Quinlan
qui...@sfu.ca
Kevin Haley
>>> What is this mythical web browser? Sounds like a insecure Atari Jihad..
>>>
>> The name of the Web Browser is simply "WWW v.1.0x" and has recently
>> been updated
>> to v.1.07.
>>
>> - And it's freeware.
>And so is Mosaic and Netscape on the Mac/PC..
Wrong, idiot. Call Netscape. Their products aren't freeware.
>> Peter Sinclair-Day...not as powerful as Saddam, but equaly stupid.
>Typical Atariindenial!!
You can dish it out but you can't take it, huh?
>> Sorry - just couldn't resist..... You know how that feels......
>Couldn't resis too!
Couldn't spell it, either.
/Kevin
sincl...@cobra.uni.edu
> sincl...@cobra.uni.edu writes:
>
>>> BTW, you apparently bought a crappy cheap non-expandable Mac, right?
>>> I mean, the PDS is occupied with either a gfx board or McSTout or ...
>>> you can't have two expansions at the same time.
>
>>Like the falcon has expandibility...I have a PDS, communication slot for modem
>>or ethernet, video slot and a tv tuner slot.. Plus there is a $699 6300 logic
>>board upgrade.
>
> Oh, joy! You got a communication slot! Is something like that a
> commodity for Apple owners?
Also for ethermet as well. Don't forget than an M-peg board can be added as
well.
>
> What type of processor is in your system? Memory? Hard disk? What's
> the speed of the aformentioned?
>
Performa 636(aka Quadra 630)..040-33mhz, 8/250, 2xcdrom, keyboard and software
bundle for $999 plus $3.00 over night delivery from MacWarehouse!
>>> What are you proud of? Not to have bought a 7500?
>
>>No, my brother has a 7500. I will stick with the 636 for now. Rumors are that
>>in any day now, PowerComputing will announce 604 Powermacs starting at $2000!
>
> Oh, gosh! Apple is planning on introducing a machine with some decent
> power for under $2000! Huh? What's that? They've already missed the
> boat?
And C-lab has the gaul to charge soo much for a slow 030 machine! I was just
on the Toad web and about fell off my seat when i read the prices..You got to
be kidding.
PowerComputing is the one. The $2000 is a rumored price, just a rumor! An
announcement any day now.
>
>> Peter Sinclair-Day Macintosh Performa 636
>> University of Northern Iowa PowerBook 150
>>
>> Saying Windows 95 is equal to Macintosh is like finding a potato that looks
>>like Jesus and believing you've witnessed the second comming.
>> -Guy Kawasaki
>
> The fact that this guy is comparing an operating system to a
> machine really tells you something.
>
BeBox(?)
Peter Sinclair-Day Macintosh Performa 636
University of Northern Iowa PowerBook 150
Graduate School of Library/Curriculum and Information Science
Http://w3.nai.net/~asincla/home.htm
Saying Windows 95 is equal to Macintosh is like finding a potato that looks
like Jesus and believing you've witnessed the second comming.
-Guy Kawasaki
James Wood
On 23 Oct 1995, Kevin Haley wrote:
> And I see Mac's at my local Best Buy for sale with 340 meg hard drives.
> Talk about outdated.
Best Buy must be simply a name. They'd have sold long ago if they were
priced right. Is it the Macs fault that Best Buy is full of old stock
because they can't turn over their hardware?
I see Falcons sold at Toad with 80-meg hard drives.
>
> > and 8 megs isn't really suitable for anything
>
> And I still see Macs at my local Best Buy with 5meg memory configurations.
> Talk about not suitable.
>
Kinda like a 1 or 5 meg Falcon, eh?
James Wood
On 22 Oct 1995, George Crissman - Ferran Scientific wrote:
> No, I'm referring to the benchmarking done by Digital Equipment
> Corporation several years back when they unveiled their "Alpha Processor"
> system. Completion times were:
>
> Apple Mac Quadra 12 seconds
> Clone 486/66 MHz 6 seconds
> DEC Alpha 5 seconds
>
> Atari was running the same benchmark on the Falcon in 4 seconds.
> Obviously, I'm being generous to the Mac when I say it only needs
> a better processor and double-or-faster clock speed.
Am I to infer that the point of the above is to tell me that the 16Mhz
Falcon has more horsepower than the above systems???
Oh, I see ATARI was running the benchmark on their own computer and beat
out the rest. This must be the same Atari that got flamed in NextGen
magazine for claiming the Jaguar was more powerful than the Saturn.
> : games,
>
> That's what Jaguars and Clones are for. (I've never met anyone who
> felt the Mac was a serious contender in the game machine category. :-)
Then what's the Atari for? If I have to get a Clone, I may as well do my
word processing, etc on it as well.
>
> The other platforms are cheaper because they don't offer all that the
> Falcon offers. That was demonstrated above.
That was a claim, not a demonstration.
> : Who needs to learn on how to operate spell checkers?
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Or grammar checkers <g>.
heh heh heh
> That's what "compatibility" is all about! Software written for
> the ST runs just fine on the Falcon. Are you implying that each
> new MacIntosh model causes the existing catalog of Mac software to
> become obsolete?
Then why won't all the games run on the Falcon? There should be no
exceptions. "Compatibility" is an absolute term.
> : > 2. Because the Falcon is still being actively marketed.
> : What continent?
>
> Europe, United States, etc.
No, not in the United States.
>
> I help new users with clones, macs, unix, and atari systems. And you?
>
I certainly wouldn't want to recommend an Atari system to a new user.
Could you imagine the frustration of not being able to get software in
your hometown while all the neighbors do - and to be so limited? Falcons
are good for seasoned Atari pros, but bad for beginners.
>
> Try to buy new software for it in four years. Most likely, your machine
> won't be capable of running it. Most of the new Atari software runs on
> the ST just fine.
Things are going to dry up faster, though. No Codehead, etc....
> That's what it all comes down to! If you're happy with it based on
> your own criteria, then it's the machine for you. Our difference of
> opinion is based on what we expect from our computers.
>
True - but let's not justify our opinions by distorting the truth with
ridiculous claims that the Falcon outperforms all other plaforms, that we
can get lots of new software, that we can run all old software (games
included) on the Falcon, that the Falcon is a great starter computer,
that the Falcon can be all things to all people, that 8 years from now
things will be peachy with the Falcon. 8 years ago you could get new software
for the Commodore 64. Does that mean I can now or in 8 years?
James
James Wood
On 23 Oct 1995, Frieder Guy wrote:
> Frieder Guy (fri...@southern.co.nz) wrote:
> : : It's not unreasonable to spend $1500 for a Dell Pentium and Mac 631cd one as
> : : well. Doesn't the Falcon cost $1900 fully loaded?
> $1900 New Zealand maybe. (NZ$1=approx US$0.50
Maybe in NZ but not in USA.
> The anything86 series is dated technology, like about 20 years out of
> date - the 486 is just a very overclocked XT.
No - the newer x86 designs have L1 and L2 caches, pipelining, branch
prediciton, multiple instuction processing. Must I go off about the
differences between XT monochrome text and SVGA truecolor graphics? I
think you get the point: YOU'RE WRONG. They had all that stuff 20 years
ago, eh?
> : :
> : : And the expensive Falcon is not?
> : :
> Only about 2 years not 20
HA HA HA!!! 2 years? So the 68030 was developed 2 years ago and the
Pentium 20 years ago!! HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!! In truth, a 16 Mhz 030 was
pretty much a puss even when the Falcon debuted.
> At the time the Atari ST kicked butt of everything else about for the
> price, I got mine for running Notator SL. And now the Falcon is the one
> to compare. Very nice and no hidden costs either.
The Falcon never had the advantage that the Atari ST had. Not even
close. That was a decade ago, however.
> The Falcon has a web browser. Even the 520 ST has a web browser.
How do those color pictures look on a 4-color display (520ST)?
> Earth idiot. And the apps for the Falcon are cheaper than the apps for
> the PC.
Bullshit. Papyrus is expensive - we've been through that here.
> Try dumping the PC, the Falcon kicks butt.
16Mhz 030s kick but....in a pig's eye.
> : :
> : : 56 pages of Falcon stuff? I don't think soo. I have a Toad catalog..
> : :
> 15000 archives of Falcon stuff on one of the net sites so don't give us
> that crap. It doesn't have to be commercial to be good on the Atari, in
> fact the commercial stuff on the PC is worse than some of the PD Atari stuff
Take those 15000 archives and multiply them by a factor (2, 3, 4, 10???)
and that's how many Mac/PC sites they'll be. Your arguement applies to
other platoforms as well, but greater in magnitude.
> Even though 80% of the software for ST's works, who needs it when there
> is heaps already for the Falcon
HEH HEH HEH!!! "HEaps" mean different things to different people,
obviously!!
> Falcon. Heard of the C-LAB Falcon 040?
So we're little more than 4 years from the year 2000 and a 040 is the
hottest setup now, eh?? HEH HEH!
> : : > : Just because my 486/80Mhz isn't the fastest PeeCee there is,
> : : > : it's automatically obsolete? I rather doubt the latter.
> Try PieceofCrap. It is dated technology because it is 1970's technology,
> just over clocked and sped up
You are a prick and you suck for saying that. You're also wrong.
> : : > : to serve me, I'll have to sell it or toss it in a shitbox and get a new
> : : > : computer.
> Try the latter now and get a Falcon.
Heh heh. I don't have time to write my own software and if I did, I'd
want something hotter than a 16Mhz 030.
> Decent computer.
In 1986, perhaps.
> Saying a Macintosh is equal to a Falcon is like finding a shit that looks
> like Jesus and believing you've witnessed the second coming.
Saying a Falcon is even CLOSE to anything current is total, utter
bullshit.
Mu $.02
Mark Rathwell
: for some time now and if it wasn't for the Sega money from the lawsuit
: they would have gone bankrupt long ago.
That would be a good assumption except for:
- The fact that Atari still has something like $60 million in the bank.
- The losses haven't been particularily large
- TWI hadn't announced that it was finally selling off it's Atari stock
(this was announced some time ago. TWI is down sizing)
: I hope that a real company purchases their assets and manufactures their
: products. Hmmmmm. Toshiba doesn't have a game machine yet. Maybe they'll
: buy them out. Or maybe Yamaha could buy them and start remarketing the
: computers again.
Considering Atari isn't anywhere near bankruptcy, I'd ignore that
idea for now.
Brian Quinlan
>Wrong, idiot. Call Netscape. Their products aren't freeware.
Netscape is freeware if you are a student. I beleive that Peter is a student.
--
Brian Quinlan
qui...@sfu.ca
Kevin Haley
>: holdings. WHAT GIVES? Anybody have a clue?
>: Signed - a concerned Atari Stock holder
>Sounds like Atari is finally going under. They'e been operating at a loss
>for some time now and if it wasn't for the Sega money from the lawsuit
>they would have gone bankrupt long ago.
WRONG. Time Warner is selling a substantial share of their stock in
order to raise money. This cause ATC to tank. TW announced this quite
a while ago, that they had planned on selling their share in several
companies in order to raise $1 billion.
IMO, with ATC at 2, now is a great time to buy. They're sure to have
a good Xmas.
/Kevin
Houn-Nam Ing
: >
: > Sure, call Toad or B&C or Steves ect.....
: I want to see one localy..Toad is in Maryland...
What a hyprocrite, you want one localy for Atari right, but
you bought your Mac at MacMall via mail order. Sincrap be
consisten with what you preach.
: >
: > This really show's you are just talking out your ass. You haven't any
: > idea what your talking about.
: And you do? A typical Atarian Jiha!!
How can one bash a machine without seeing once, nor use it extensively
to know what the machine is worth.
--
o---------------------------------------------------------------------o
| Houn-Nam Ing | E-mail: hi...@engr.csulb.edu |
|-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|
| WWW: http://www.engr.csulb.edu/~hing/ |
|-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|
| ``If I live, I will fight, wherever I must, as long as I must, |
| until the enemy is defeated and the national stain washed clean.'' |
o------------------------- Charles de Gaulle -------------------------o
Kevin Haley
>>>Like the falcon has expandibility.I have a PDS, communication slot for modem
>>>or ethernet, video slot and a tv tuner slot..Plus there is a $699 6300 logic
>>>board upgrade.
>>
>> Oh, joy! You got a communication slot! Is something like that a
>> commodity for Apple owners?
>Also for ethermet as well. Don't forget than an M-peg board can be added as
>well.
<yawn> Have you checked out the offerings for the PC lately? If you
really have to brag about this, Peter, then Apple is in worse shape
than I thought.
>> What type of processor is in your system? Memory? Hard disk? What's
>> the speed of the aformentioned?
>Performa 636(aka Quadra 630)..040-33mhz, 8/250, 2xcdrom, keyboard and software
>bundle for $999 plus $3.00 over night delivery from MacWarehouse!
ONLY 2x CDROM!? Do you know you can get a 2x CDROM for $65 nowadays?
And I would hope that your purchase included keyboard and software.
Sheesh.
Did you just buy this system Peter? Sorry to tell you, but in 6 months
you're going to discover that system to be quite inadequate.
>And C-lab has the gaul to charge soo much for a slow 030 machine! I was just
>on the Toad web and about fell off my seat when i read the prices..You got to
>be kidding.
Atari's computers aren't mass-produced anymore, moron. You're going to
be paying extra because of the scarce resources. Better to compare
the Mac to the PC, dork.
/Kevin
M.D.Griffiths
:>Someone - The PPC Macs cannot be as cool as the Falcon because they do not
:> have a DSP. A DSP is required to perform specific tasks.
:>Me - A DSP is just a processor designed to do specific tasks quickly.
:> The PPC processor is fast enough to do these tasks itself. For
:> example the Q840AV is just slightly faster than a 6100/60 when
:> using it's DSP.
:>Someone - Liar! A DSP can do things that a processor cannot.
:>Me - Please provide an example.
A motorola DSP 56001 (for instance) can do the following instruction in
1 instruction cycle.
MAC x0,y0,a x:(r0)+,x0 y:(r4)+,y0
this is a multiplication,add and two memory loads and two pointer updates
in one cycle. The PPC processor would probably take around 10 cycles to
complete this 'set' of operations. Therefore, for some specific tasks DSPs
can be (and are) many times faster. However there are only a limited number
of applications which gain this type of speed-up - a PPC, or indeed any
fast CPU(Pentium,Alpha,PARISC etc) can compete against DSPs for a wide range of
signal processing applications.
Griff
--
Frieder Guy
: sincl...@cobra.uni.edu writes:
:
: >> BTW, you apparently bought a crappy cheap non-expandable Mac, right?
: >> I mean, the PDS is occupied with either a gfx board or McSTout or ...
: >> you can't have two expansions at the same time.
:
Falcon has a CAPITAL "F"
: >or ethernet, video slot and a tv tuner slot.. Plus there is a $699 6300 logic
: >board upgrade.
Wow! What a deal! Only $699! Man that is SOOOO Good [said in a VERY
sarcastic voice]
You can get a new Falcon for that price.
: Oh, joy! You got a communication slot! Is something like that a
: commodity for Apple owners?
I reckon, the last apple I'd seen didn't even have a RS-232 port!
---- Long Live ATARI!
George Crissman - Ferran Scientific
: > > TOS Upgrade: $59.00
: > > Floppy Upgrade: $100.00
: > > RAM Upgrade: $100.00 plus RAM (same cost on all platforms)
: > > -------
: > > $259.00
: > >
: > > (source: Toad Computers catalog)
: Ok - what's the two-way shipping charge to mail my "non-expandable"
: ST in to have all that done? How much labor will it cost me? How much
: downtime? Remember that everything is soldered in on the Atari, and
: perhaps I can do the TOS myself - but I may as well have them plug it in
: while they have the thing open. Oh - how do I know if I have the "proper
: AJAX" chips (or whatever?). I was trying to determine if I could get
: this done to my 520ST and was answered with some indifference.
Service Charge Estimates
Two-Way Shipping (UPS) $ 25.00
Labor (Generous) $100.00
-------
Subtotal $125.00
Plus Parts $259.00
-------
Total $384.00
That's even less than sinclap's under-performing $999.00 wonder, which
certainly refutes your claim that it's cheaper to buy another computer
than to upgrade!
[ Web Browser Comments Edited -- They're Answered In Other Postings ]
: > > "Lots of software" is always comforting, but how many of the 45
: > > Clone spreadsheets do you actually need? How many of the 237 Clone
: > > word processors do you actually need? How many of the 68 Clone
: > > databases do you actually need?
: So it's the old "I can't get any so I'll walk down the Path of
: Renunciation" arguement??
Since I noted that there are several choices available in each of the
main applications, I'm certainly not claiming that "I can't get any."
Are you having difficulty following the discussion?
: Another twist: "Fox can't get the grapes so they must not be
: sweet anyway?"
I haven't said anything derogatory about software that's not compatible
with the Falcon or the ST.
: Sorry, but there ain't that many duplicate programs. There is a
: LARGE DIVERSITY.
A large diversity of word processors. A large diversity of databases.
A large diversity of spreadsheets. A large diversity of telecommuni-
cations programs.
Most computer users will only operate six or fewer programs on their
computer. It doesn't matter that there are 237 different word processors,
since they only need one of them.
: > The Falcon is a throw away wedge piece of litter, get over it!
: Heh heh heh!!! Now, I'm not going to go as far as say the Falcon is that
: bad - I just want the truth. The truth is that it's not (anywhere close)
: to being a kick-ass cutting edge system. Can't get any software.
Software is available on-line, by mail, and at dealers supporting
Atari computers.
: > > 80% of existing ST software runs on the Falcon and you claim
: > > that it "...isn't even close to being 'totally compatible' with
: > > it's predecessors"? I disagree!
: > He he he
: YEAH RIGHT!!! Look at the games section where they list everything
: that's Falcon compatible with a little asterick. Probably more like
: 20%.
Did you see the little note in the upper right corner? It says:
"A check next to a title means it has been tested on and is
compatible with the Falcon030. Other titles have not been tested
or do not work...." ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Obviously the list is not complete, which means that games
compatibility will be greater than 20%.
Also: 75% of all games sold in the US are for the various Clone machines.
If you're looking for a game machine and not a serious computer, then the
Falcon is obviously not for you.
BTW -- I was referring to all existing ST software in the
"80% compatibility" statement, not just the games.
: And at those prices, I can probably buy BOTH a MAC and PC, or a PowerMac
: that's DOS compatible. Uhh....difficult choice. Let me guess which one
: the marketplace will make.
A maxed-out Clone at Incredible Universe retails for $3,000.00. A
maxed-out Falcon retails for $1,900.00. Nope, I don't think you
could buy BOTH a MAC and a Clone. You couldn't even buy just the
clone.
: I haven't seen an Atari ad (for anything, not even games) in months,
Check out the Jaguar ads on the late-night talk shows.
: haven't seen a computer TV ad since Alan Alda was the spokesman for the
: then-new Atari XL lines, never seen an ad for an ST (not even when they
: were hot), and I doubt Falcon ever made it to TV. Do you mean they're
: spouting off about 16-Mhz processors on national TV?? Where??? Where do
: I tune in?
It's true the Falcon isn't being marketed via TV -- but I see the print
ads in ST Informer and ST Format, and can visit the Toad Web Site.
: > > 3. Because the new software already available is leading edge stuff.
: Now we revert to the "we already have it so we don't need more"
: arguement.
No. It's a statement that new software is available for the
Falcon, and that it's of leading edge concept and quality.
Is English a second language for you?
: > > 4. Because Atari owners enjoy their platform and support each other.
: Can you think of **ANY** computing platform where things are different?
: PC/Mac and even Coleco ADAM and Timex/Sinclair 1000s have usergroups
: SOMEWHERE.
He wanted reasons, I was being complete.
: > > 5. Because clones of the Atari computer are becoming available.
: > >
: At prices that could get me into a new Mecedes S-class. Heh heh.
With performance that make both the Mac and the Clone look very bad.
: That's because there's an EON between hardware generations (er, there
: was, since there's no more). Just bacause Atari owners are saddled with
: DEAD END hardware (reference: 16Mhz processor) is no reason to turn
: that around into a "I can still run all the new software on my old
: computer."
That so-called "Dead End hardware" smoked an Apple Mac Quadra and had
a 66 MHz '486 breathing heavy just trying to keep up. An efficient
architecture coupled with an efficient operating system outplays raw
Hertz.
: People WANT to upgrade - I enjoy buying a new computer as
: much as a new car - particularly when I can sell my old one (yes, at a
: loss, but not as much as you) and when my new model is a
: bang-for-the-buck champ over the last one.
WANTING to upgrade is different from being FORCED to upgrade, a
requirement of running with the Clones.
: Too bad that with the Falcon, not only can you NOT upgrade (save
: for overpriced German clones - I'm talking ATARI here), but you can't
: even run all the old software.
Yes, there are hardware upgrades for the Falcon -- the upcoming '040
processor, the 32 MHz upgrade, the expose video board, etc.
And the ability to run 80% of all the old software is pretty good!
: Don't try and tell me that 80% of the software is compatible - I've seen
: people try to get GAMES to run on the Falcon - good luck in many cases.
Software is more than games. 80% of all ST software will run on the
Falcon.
: The past is never a good indicator of the future in this changing
: industry, son. 8 years ago, I couldn't get 1-gig hard drives for under
: $300 (maybe less now). Just an example.
When you're discussing technological trends, you may be correct.
But when you're considering the development of software, I choose
to differ! To achieve the greatest level of sales, software developers
will make their offerings compatible with as much of the computer line
as possible.
: What's clearly realistic to me is that the Falcon clearly went by
: the wayside like the Atari 8-bit, Apple II, Coleco Adam, Commodore
: 64, etc...
Falcon: STILL In Production
Atari 8: Not In Production
Apple II: Not In Production
Coleco Adam: Not In Production
Commodore 64: Not In Production
Wrong again.
: I'm sure there are users of those platforms that think they had it
: all and that anything else wasn't necessary.
Naturally, I don't think I've "got it all", because NONE of the computer
platforms can claim that!
: It's not very clear to you that you're in the same boat. It is to me.
It all comes down to: how much does it cost to perform the task?
Clone users spend about $2500.00 every four years while Atari owners
spend about $2500.00 every eight years, as shown previously.
-- George