Comments on the webinar
JF Mezei
New VMS organisation chart:
http://www.vaxination.ca/vms_org_chart.jpg
Shobha Benakatti reports to Rick Stephens. HP Technology Group.
(couldn't find him in the HP web site, but HP Technology Group is headed
by Ann Livermore. So not sure what changes are happening in the pecking
order.
The audio can be listened at:
http://www.vaxination.ca/sujatha.mp3
sujatha.mp3;1
Size: 45.72MB/45.72MB
Created: 20-MAY-2009 12:56:19.66
Revised: 20-MAY-2009 12:58:04.75 (5)
Very little hard information was given.
It appears many budgets were cut this year (Bootcamp, Ambassadors etc)
and that Sujatha will be working to try to re-instate them.
Questions went from the computer to Nina Buick to Sue Skonetski who did
most of the answering. Sujatha presented herself, but didn't provide
many answers.
It appears that the powerpoint presentation is available on the connect
web site. But I don't know the complex URL for that user group.
I LOVE YOU SUE !
JF Mezei
Someone asked about VMS support group: It got the *IMPRESSION* that HP
plans to move level 2 support to India, (level 1 already in India)
contracts permitting. I'll have to re-listen to the audio to ensure I
heard properly.
JF Mezei
Carolyn Whitney.(sp?) New hire. Moving to India.
JF Mezei
quote:
"
Yeah, I think there are lots of changes happening , so, uh,
what we will definitely ensure for VMS customers
is the continuation of support, the contractual obligations will all be
fulfilled as it was signed by them,."
"
JF Mezei
"When HP comes up with the money, we'll talk about it"
P. Sture
JF Mezei <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> It appears that the powerpoint presentation is available on the connect
> web site. But I don't know the complex URL for that user group.
It's on this page:
http://www.connect-community.org/Events/PastEvents/tabid/81/Default.aspx
which is where I assume the full recording will be made available in due
course (someone said "a few weeks time").
PDF URL:
http://www.connect-community.org/portals/0/meetsujathafinal.pdf
(which is missing the organization chart)
--
Paul Sture
VAXman-
>New dedicated VMS marketing person.
>
>Carolyn Whitney.(sp?) New hire. Moving to India.
I wish the would have offered me that job; I too can take HP's
money and do nothing for it. ;)
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
"Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"
Syltrem
"JF Mezei" <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote in message
news:005cc4a9$0$14691$c3e...@news.astraweb.com...
I clearly heard this comment and it scratched my ears some...
Very sad if we loose all the good people in the US.
I hope they will find *real* level 2 people in India because level 1s can
only read the books, which I already did. They have not proven to be of any
help so far (with 1 exception IIRC but he still had to get some info from
oversea).
We will not renew our support contract in these (actual) conditions.
Syltrem
DaveG
> About Bootcamp:
>
> "When HP comes up with the money, we'll talk about it"
Gotta wonder if HP actually lost any money on the bootcamps. It
wasn't free !!
DaveG
> In article <00586f6c$0$31244$c3e8...@news.astraweb.com>,
> JF Mezei <jfmezei.spam...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
>
> > It appears that the powerpoint presentation is available on the connect
> > web site. But I don't know the complex URL for that user group.
>
> It's on this page:
>
> http://www.connect-community.org/Events/PastEvents/tabid/81/Default.aspx
>
> which is where I assume the full recording will be made available in due
> course (someone said "a few weeks time").
>
> PDF URL:
>
> http://www.connect-community.org/portals/0/meetsujathafinal.pdf
>
> (which is missing the organization chart)
>
> --
> Paul Sture
Interesting that the new URL said to be updated with new information
actually has less information: that is, the org chart. For those
interested, JF posted his own link with the new org chart at the top
of this thread.
JF Mezei
Shobha Benakatti is Director of VMS
She reports to:
RICK STEFFENS, VP & GM of Systems Technology & Software
I do not know what his relation is with Ann Livermore, but apparently,
this indian R&D group reports to her. But it isn't HP-LABS.
And I do not know how many people in between there are.
In the past:
Hurd->Livermore->Stallard->Fink->McQuaid.
Now:
Hurd->Livermore->???????????->Steffens->Benekatti
Neil Rieck
So is McQuaid gone from HP or just OpenVMS?
NSR
JF Mezei
> So is McQuaid gone from HP or just OpenVMS?
A mystery as secret as how they put the caramel into the Caramilk.
All we know is that Shobha Benakatti replaces McQuaid as the head of
VMS, and that McQuaid will still be an HP employee diring HPTF and will
be at Shobha's side.
It is also not known if the handful fo Engineers remaining in new
england will report directly to Mrs Benakatti or if they will have a
local boss. (Perhaps McQuaid will report to Benakatti and manage the
small group left here ?)
Richard Maher
"JF Mezei" <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote in message
news:005d0e2b$0$14692$c3e...@news.astraweb.com...
> Neil Rieck wrote:
>
> > So is McQuaid gone from HP or just OpenVMS?
>
>
> A mystery as secret as how they put the caramel into the Caramilk.
>
> All we know is that Shobha Benakatti replaces McQuaid as the head of
> VMS,
Personally, I believe any change is good here. The old brooms were leaving a
mess.
> and that McQuaid will still be an HP employee diring HPTF and will
> be at Shobha's side.
>
> It is also not known if the handful fo Engineers remaining in new
> england will report directly to Mrs Benakatti or if they will have a
> local boss.
I hope they do get to report directly to the new boss! Once the lines of
communication are open and a workable solution found then "going forward"
maybe there will be even less reason to change things, budgets will look
better, and those handfull of engineers may continue as they are!
> (Perhaps McQuaid will report to Benakatti and manage the
> small group left here ?)
JF previously, with the regard to topics such as IPsec and others, you've
made claims to the effect that "it was out of Ann's hands she was not
responsible" or "she doesn't have a budget for that". So I'm at a loss to
know what else she, and others, in VMS management were doing for the last 5
years other than signing timesheets; please help me out here.
If it comes down retaining whatever business function local management is
being seen to provide or retaining at least two extra engineers for the same
salary, then I know which option I'd vote for. As I've said before, still
plenty of fat to be trimmed; just not IPsec! (But a lot more on the
relaticve merits of who's been cut and who's been retained later.)
Regards Richard Maher
Richard Maher
I just hope Grama learns to dodge those elevator doors :-)
Regards Richard Maher
"DaveG" <david.g...@abbott.com> wrote in message
news:86d0f219-6389-4c57...@e23g2000vbe.googlegroups.com...
Arne Vajhøj
> In article <005cc2b1$0$15450$c3e...@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> writes:
>> New dedicated VMS marketing person.
>>
>> Carolyn Whitney.(sp?) New hire. Moving to India.
>
> I wish the would have offered me that job; I too can take HP's
> money and do nothing for it. ;)
You want to move to Bangalore ?
:-)
Arne
P. Sture
<477e0a54-8853-409c...@h23g2000vbc.googlegroups.com>,
DaveG <david.g...@abbott.com> wrote:
I had the impression they were self-supporting. Of course if you start
putting engineers' time at cross departmental rates onto that budget,
things can look quite different.
--
Paul Sture
Simon Clubley
And what happens when those contracts are due to be renewed or what
happens to those of us on annual support contracts ?
:-(
Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980's technology to a 21st century world
Simon Clubley
> In article <005cc4a9$0$14691$c3e...@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> writes:
>> About the level 2 support rumoured to move to India:
>>
>> quote:
>> "
>> Yeah, I think there are lots of changes happening , so, uh,
>>
>> what we will definitely ensure for VMS customers
>> is the continuation of support, the contractual obligations will all be
>> fulfilled as it was signed by them,."
>> "
>
> And what happens when those contracts are due to be renewed or what
> happens to those of us on annual support contracts ?
>
> :-(
>
BTW, I don't care which country hosts the support engineers.
What I _do_ care about is the quality of that support and it seems that
the problem here, given HP's motivations, is that a lot of expertise is
going to be lost during this move.
What especially alarms me about the above quote from JF is that HP are
clearly only thinking very short term and only in terms of the current
contracts held by customers. They clearly want to do this as cheaply
as possible (ie: they are doing this as a cost saving exercise).
Major multiyear length contract customers are probably going to be
reasonably ok. It's likely to be the normal customers, like myself, which
are going to suffer a major decrease in support quality.
JF Mezei
> What especially alarms me about the above quote from JF is that HP are
> clearly only thinking very short term and only in terms of the current
> contracts held by customers. They clearly want to do this as cheaply
> as possible (ie: they are doing this as a cost saving exercise).
Say, for the purpose of discussion only, that HP/Intel were to plan on
announcing the end of IA64 in September 2009. This would imply end of
VMS development once the last model of IA64 servers is released in a
couple of years.
Again, this is just for the sake of discussion. I have been given no
information from HP that this might or might not be the case.
But if this were true, consider how HP would be preparing us, and the
VMS infrastructure for this. You claim now that it is business as usual
and the indian team will continue to actively develop VMS, but you know
that before that team has had time to ramp up, you will anounce
retirement and the team can then quickly move to maintenance mode with
only one more version of vMS to recompile when the last IA64 servers are
produced.
The quality of drones that you need for such a scenario is quite
different than if you truly intended to continue to develop VMS in the
long term and add major new features.
Similarly, if you know you will announce that VMS will be made mature
after one more version, you know that your VMS customers will begin
migration plans soon, you know you won't get new customers and that
customers migrating to new platforms won't really botrher with new
versions of VMS, so the support team requirements will be different.
Also, remember that those DOE/COO long term contracts allegedly signed
with the military were signed 8-10 years ago. So HP only needs to
maintain quality staff for a few more years. And besides, those
contracts probably have a dedicated team already and that team may not
be moved to india.
John Nebel
IanMiller
Positive points from the webinar
1. the ambassador and hobbyist programmes will continue
2. VTJ will continue
3. there is a new VMS marketing person!
4. HP are sending a team including the new VMS Org manager to HPTF
5. VMS development and support will continue
6. Sujatha is aware of of the desire for a VMS Bootcamp
7. technical update days are being planned
Bill Gunshannon
JF Mezei <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> writes:
>
> Also, remember that those DOE/COO long term contracts allegedly signed
> with the military were signed 8-10 years ago.
You guys really need to give this a rest. There are no government
contracts that extend beyond the end of a single fiscal year. Many
(Most?) have options to allow extending without re-competing, but
the contract runs from Oct 1 to Sept 30 each year. No one in the
government can commit funds before they have them in their budget.
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bill...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
JF Mezei
>
> the contract runs from Oct 1 to Sept 30 each year. No one in the
> government can commit funds before they have them in their budget.
Bu you could have a equipment purchase contract with HP usinng one
year's budget to buy the computers/software, with HP signinfg a document
garanteeing that support for the equipment would be available for at
least 10 years after date of purchase.
This doesn't commit the governmnet to purchase any support, it just
commits HP to offer such services should the govt want them each year.
johnwa...@yahoo.co.uk
The long term contracts commonly referred to in this context, are they
US DoD (only) contracts which are within Bill's field of expertise, or
might they have been (e.g.) NATO contracts, with rather different
procurement policies which may be outside Bill's area of expertise? I
can't actually remember any examples right now either way...
JF Mezei
chart and recording) and to stop being negative about VMS.
In that light, here is the joke press release I had written in JANUARY:
=====
HP to hire many new VMS engineers.
In a show of its commitment to the future of OpenVMS, HP will be hiring
many new VMS engineers during this fiscal year , with an eye towards
leveraging the growing business opportunities in south-east Asia. This
will bring fresh young blood to invigorate VMS development. The focus to
a new single location will allow HP to streamline OpenVMS management and
engineering, reduce communication problems and productivity will be
significantly increased through the removal of now redundant resources
in new england and other sites. These moves should send a clear message
to the OpenVMS community that HP's commitment to OpenVMS is solid.
=======
(This was to have been my original april 1 message dressed with with all
the extra fluff included in corp press releases, but had been convinced
not to because the news had not been been leaked.
Richard B. Gilbert
What percentage of computers have actually been in service that long?
That's roughly three lifetimes in computer years!
I'm sure there must be a few but I'm not sure that the number is
"significant"!
JF Mezei
> What percentage of computers have actually been in service that long?
> That's roughly three lifetimes in computer years!
If you have embedded system in a plane expected to be in use for 20
years, chances are that the computers may be there for at least half the
life of the aircraft before it gets a major refit.
Bob Koehler
> What especially alarms me about the above quote from JF is that HP are
> clearly only thinking very short term and only in terms of the current
> contracts held by customers. They clearly want to do this as cheaply
> as possible (ie: they are doing this as a cost saving exercise).
HP, like all modern companies, only manages by shor term bottom
line. Being is business next year is optional if you can increase
profit this year. Failing to increase profit this year will be
cause for the legal vultures to descend in the name of the stock
holders.
Bob Koehler
>
> You guys really need to give this a rest. There are no government
> contracts that extend beyond the end of a single fiscal year. Many
> (Most?) have options to allow extending without re-competing, but
> the contract runs from Oct 1 to Sept 30 each year. No one in the
> government can commit funds before they have them in their budget.
Just because the government cannot commit to funding for more than
one year has never prevented the five year and longer contracts I
work under.
Nor does lack of commitment from the government to its suppliers
ever stop it from requiring commitment from the suppliers to
the government.
Bob Koehler
>
> What percentage of computers have actually been in service that long?
> That's roughly three lifetimes in computer years!
All of my VAXen and Alphas have been in service for over a decade.
My Mac has been in service for almost a decade.
Only my PC's are less than three years old, but one of them is four.
Bob Koehler
>
> If you have embedded system in a plane expected to be in use for 20
> years, chances are that the computers may be there for at least half the
> life of the aircraft before it gets a major refit.
If you have an embedded system in a spacecraft, it might be replaced
after 19 years (NASA just did that on HST), or it might be in service
after 26 years (Landsat-5 was launched in 1983 and is still running).
Christopher
> Now:
> Hurd->Livermore->???????????->Steffens->Benekatti
If OpenVMS is moving under the Software & Solutions umbrella, it would
be Tom Hogan. I missed a lot of that broadcast, so I don't really
know the group lineup of OpenVMS now. Apparently it was TSG-
>Enterprise Servers and Storage?
Christopher
Koehler) wrote:
Also, if you know (as a senior exec) that it's coming you can evacuate
your stock options and prepare a happy golden parachute (a la Be
Inc.)
Simon Clubley
Indeed. I'm annoyed that HP have decided to get rid of the US based
VMS engineering team.
It doesn't really matter all that much which country you move some
engineering operations to when you decide to do this; what matters much
more is _how_ you go about it and getting rid of a long standing team of
engineers in this way is not the way to go about it.
At least DEC tended to be a traditional put-the-customer-first company
(and acted accordingly) when dealing with product rundowns and product
termination.
JF Mezei
> It doesn't really matter all that much which country you move some
> engineering operations to when you decide to do this; what matters much
> more is _how_ you go about it and getting rid of a long standing team of
> engineers in this way is not the way to go about it.
Ir really bugs me when people accuse *moi* of hurting VMS with my
comments or having captured one slide from a *public* webinar.
Lets be blunt here. HP told employees about the move in early january
(in conjunction with cancelled botcamp). HP refused to divulge this and
threathened employees to keep this secret.
It was only when one soon-to-be-fired employee was ready to press the
"SEND" button that HP quickly turned around and agreed to produce a
"diplomatic" letter and get the employee to not press "SEND" on an
already written message.
Lets be clear here: I am not the one who took those decisions. I am not
the one who decided on this non disclosure policy. I am not the one who
refuses to divulge whether the VMS team is just being moved or whether
it is being downsized a bit, a lot, or dramatically.
Hewlett Packerd is fully to blame for any harm its decisions and
handling of the situation may be causing to VMS.
HP knows exactly what the impact of its moves will be when it makes such
decisions, and it knowns that there will be a small number of people who
will loudly criticise such moves. Yet HP still goes ahead with its
policy and still goes ahead with its non discloruse of hard facts which
leads to speculation.
I am not important enough to cause anyone reading my posts to suddently
decided to leave VMS. If such a decision is taken after reading one of
my posts, it is because such a decision was inevitable and it is HP's
move which was the straw that broke the camel's back, not my lowly post.
South Park may "BLAME CANADA".
But I say : "BLAME HEWLETT PACKARD & CO"
Jan-Erik Söderholm
> Ir really bugs me when people accuse *moi* of hurting VMS with my
> comments or having captured one slide from a *public* webinar.
I've no idea who you refer to when you say "people", but if it is
about the slide I guess it's HP (HP runned the webinar, right ?).
But when you write comments like :
> Say, for the purpose of discussion only, that HP/Intel were to
> plan on announcing the end of IA64 in September 2009...
and other similar wild speculations, *I* at least feels that you
are hurting VMS. I can not for my life see how your rather dumb
speculations in any way could help me and others who are still
earning our living on VMS consulting. Not that any of my customers
are reading c.o.v or even know what it is, but anyway...
Best regards,
Jan-Erik.
JF Mezei
> and other similar wild speculations, *I* at least feels that you
> are hurting VMS.
Speculation is not the cause of VMS going down. It is a side effect of
HP's policies to make VMS go down ever so slowly.
If HP doen't like negative speculation about one of its products, it
knows exactly what to do to stop the speculation: provide hard facts.
So, HP is laying off almost all of VMS engineering and moving what is
left to India, and we can't speculate on the future of VMS ?
And Sujatha basically admitted that level 2 support will move to India
too, except for those who have contracts that require support in the USA.
If you have 15 years of VMS, and they patch you to someone who has 6
months experience with VMS for level 2, will you be satisfied with the
level fo service you're getting ?
This is some of the most drastic changes to VMS since 1978. This is not
an evolution, it is a revolution. And you're telling me we can't wonder
what is really going on and what is on hand for VMS in the next few years ?
Or is this a case of everyone agreeing that VMS is terminally ill and
there is no point in discussing the inevitable outcome and might has
well just make the best of what is left ?
Bill Gunshannon
JF Mezei <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> writes:
>
>
> And Sujatha basically admitted that level 2 support will move to India
> too, except for those who have contracts that require support in the USA.
>
Here is some more speculation for the group. It has been stated here
on more than one occaision that The US Government, in particular DOD,
are major VMS customers with "long term" contracts. If this is, in
fact, true, I would keep my eyes open for vacancy announcements from
the major beltway-bandits (like Lockheed-Martin and CSC) for people
with VMS experience. Why? Because this move could easily cost HP a
lot of that cash-cow revenue as government sites opt to have third-
party contractors handle their maintenance instead of going directly
to HP for it. Something even easier to do if they are actually running
older versions as at that point HP has nothing to offer maintenaance-wise
that others can't do as good, if not better, now that HP has decided to
dump all of its real experience.
Bob Koehler
> If this is, in
> fact, true, I would keep my eyes open for vacancy announcements from
> the major beltway-bandits (like Lockheed-Martin and CSC) for people
> with VMS experience.
You're making the assumption that this would represent a change,
and therefor require some hiring.
Lots of government systems are already not getting thier primary
support from the original vendor. How do you think I learned to
read crash dumps?
Bill Gunshannon
I am aware of that. When I worked for both Martin Marietta and TRWIND
I did precisely that on a number of systems, including VMS (thus my
comment about the days when DOD computer rooms were full of VMS systems.
It was first-hand experience!) But we have been repeatedly told that
HP can't kill VMS because of "all the government contracts they have."
I am merely saying that:
a) if these contracts do actually exist
b) HP moves all this support off-shore
c) the government won't accept off-shore support or the level of
support drops to an unacceptable level
there are contractors willing and able to fill the void with both
existing and newly hired expertise. Of course, it is left as an exercise
for the group members to interpret the effect this would have on the
future of VMS, at least as far as HP is concerned.
Sue
> New dedicated VMS marketing person.
>
> Carolyn Whitney.(sp?) New hire. Moving to India.
I spoke to Carolyn today and she is reading this newsgroup. She seems
like a great person. I am sure if you started a note with reasonable,
doable marketing projects that Carolyn could do she would be happy to
listen. As far as I know advertising is still not allowed by
individual OS groups.
Sue
sapienzaf
> As far as I know advertising is still not allowed by
> individual OS groups.
>
Then who was responsible for getting NonStop such a prominent mention
on the HPTF '09 "Showcase" web page, while OpenVMS is not even a
footnote?
I think what all of us would like to see is some statement (or better
yet, action) from HP that would indicate a) that OpenVMS is not on the
chopping block, b) that HP recognizes the value in OpenVMS, c) that HP
is attempting to promote *new* sales of OpenVMS systems and not just
upgrades for the installed base, and d) ... well, that's all I can
think of right now.
We love this product and it hurts to watch it (apparently) be
ignored. We know it can be more than just a niche operating system
for the select sites that already use it. For those of us (like
myself) that attempt to earn a living from it then it is particularly
difficult to watch what appears to be HP digging its grave. Well,
some might say the grave is dug and the cemetery workers have already
started filling in the hole.
JF Mezei
> I spoke to Carolyn today and she is reading this newsgroup.
Sue, could you provide the "chain of command" from Mrs Benakatti to Mrs
Livermore ?
From what I heard, she reports to Rick Steffens of Systems Technology
and Software.
Is that another arm of Enterprise Storage and Systems, or is this
another branch of Livermore's tree ?
Have HP-=UX and Tandem/NSK engineering also moved to Mr Steffens's
organisation ?
Richard B. Gilbert
The horse you are whipping is not only dead but the remains have begun
to putrefy!
VAX, Alpha and VMS provided my living for thirty years. There are
damned few jobs left for VMS people these days, that's why I'm retired.
The remaining systems will be retired and replaced with Unix, Windows,
or some combination of both. In a way, I'm glad I don't have be part of
this process!
Arne Vajhøj
Not only are they already doing it. I believe they have been
doing it for 20 years.
Arne
P. Sture
Going back to the days when DEC pointed smaller companies at OEMs for
sales and support, many of us became quite self sufficient. I am going
back 30+ years there (to PDP-11's in my case).
--
Paul Sture
etms...@yahoo.co.uk
From the stuff you say JF, a newcomer might think that you have an
inside line to what's going on. As far as I'm aware (having heard you
say the same things for too long), you don't.
VMS is not alone in the development being in India. HP-UX and other
in-house operating environments and software are developed there too.
It's economics. There are, if I remember rightly, other bits of
development done in other places too (can you say China and do I
remember rightly?). Before I left the UK, I was dealing with guys in
the Netherlands for support on difficult issues, some of them being
escalated to VMS Engineering like a bug in the lock remastering which
caused some problems. Similarly, HP won't be the only ones moving
support and software authoring to India or China - IBM, Oracle/Sun and
others are likely to be doing the same.
From my point of view, it's a real pity for those that might have
joined Digital for a job for life. I'm sorry that they have left the
company and wish them all the best for the future. With redundancy
packages being what they might, some will be able to tide themselves
over until retirement, others will be looking for new jobs with
hopefully enough redundancy pay to be able to tide themselves over.
As a customer, I hope that the quality of code that we have come to
expect and respect from the VMS Group continues and that in another
twenty years time we're again discussing how VMS got to 50. It may be
on a different platform but since nobody has mentioned anything about
the present hardware platform being killed off (other than in JF's
pipe dreams) then there's no sign that IPF will be going anywhere
anytime soon.
Steve
(p.s. If I need to eat my words in the future, I will. At the moment,
I see no direct reason to though.)
JF Mezei
> From the stuff you say JF, a newcomer might think that you have an
> inside line to what's going on.
There are no newcomers. And it is one problem with VMS. We've seen one
long time poster leave this group after another because they no longer
work with VMS, their employer/customer having migrated away.
Consider that HP management refuses to even admit that VMS engineering
is being moved to India. The org chart I was asked to pull out of my web
site provided enough proof that it was to be all in india (in terms of
VMS product managers).
If HP maintained the same level of manpower and expertise, then it
should not be affraid to confirm the move. The fact that it is trying to
hide it means that it knows that this is not a positive or neutral move.
But the fact that HP refuses to be honest about the move should make
people trust HP even less.
Jan-Erik Söderholm
> etms...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>
>> From the stuff you say JF, a newcomer might think that you have an
>> inside line to what's going on.
>
>
> There are no newcomers. And it is one problem with VMS. We've seen one
> long time poster leave this group after another because they no longer
> work with VMS, their employer/customer having migrated away.
>
So what ? Noone else are particular public about where they
decide to put their development resources.
> that VMS engineering is being moved to India...
As more or less everyone else is.
> If HP maintained the same level of manpower and expertise, then it
> should not be affraid to confirm the move...
Why should they ? It's absolutely no change with regard to
obligations agianst the customers. There might be a different
sounding name here and there but that is more or less all.
If HP where to sell off VMS some somebody else, that would be
something to talk about. But now they are just moving theirs
offices around a little.
> The fact that it is trying to
> hide it means that it knows that this is not a positive or neutral move.
I do not think they are trying to hide anything any more then
any other similar organizations are. And besides, with all these new
new names everywhere, do you *realy* think HP are trying to hide
anything ?
Neil Rieck
> I do not think they are trying to hide anything any more then
> any other similar organizations are. And besides, with all these new
> new names everywhere, do you *realy* think HP are trying to hide
> anything ?
>
Six months ago I (apparently) was asking too many sensitive questions
in this newsgroup and was then privately contacted by several non-HP
employees telling me to shut up. I was told "some things" about off-
shoring OpenVMS jobs and how my persistent questions might cause some
"pension grief" for the people who were about to become displaced.
[ p.s. I am a unionized employee which means that I have "a little
protection" from corporate feudalism as well as a pension guarantee
based upon my 35 years of service. My CEO has only been on the job for
6 years but will retire with the equivalent of 45 years of service. I
guess his contract negotiators were better than mine. ]
Anyway, I am very sensitive to hearing that someone's pension is being
held over them by a corporate fat-cat so "I shut up". That said, some
of the things I was told back them were somewhat vague. One fact I was
given said their would be an official announcement from HP on
"September 2009". With semi-vague Indian announcement this month, I
have no idea if more information is coming in September or not. But I
do know that HP has been hiding things all along and it is their right
to do so. Just don't think that they love you just because you love
OpenVMS.
Neil Rieck
Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,
Ontario, Canada.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/OpenVMS.html
JF Mezei
> So what ? Noone else are particular public about where they
> decide to put their development resources.
What has made VMS "VMS" ?
It has been serious engineers who put out quality code and
documentation. In the end, this is what really differentiates VMS. It
was also good support.
This is being changed now.
Considering that VMS has been on the chopping block for the last 10
years, and has so far managed to delay/avoid the axe falling, customers
should be weary of any action HP takes which doesn't help VMS.
If your enterprise stays away from Windows because you don't want your
business critical systems to rely on software written by redmond
pubescent windows weenies whose experience is mostly playing video
games, then you should be concerned about VMS engineering moving to an
unknown entity which HP refuses to discuss. How do we know that the new
staff that will write/maintain VMS code aren't now mostly pubescent
indians whose experience with computers is mostly playing video games ?
If your support contract doesn't specify "Colorado", and calling for vMS
support connects you to script reading drones and it takes a week to
escalate to a point where you are allowed to talk to someone who knows
the product, are you could to find VMS still has any advantage over any
other OS ?
Palmer/Compaq/HP have narrowed VMS down to a small niche of high paying
customers, like a half dozen stock exchanges. This type of
vendor/customer relationship requires the vendor keep in touch with the
customers and inform them of what is going on. Sue was most excellent in
doing this.
But now, Sue is prevented by her (former) employer from telling
customers what they need to know.
Sorry, but a quick "we'll continue to develop VMS" statement doesn't do
it. For all we know, they'll continue to develop it into 8.4 is
delivered. Thgey aren't giving any time frames.
There was mention in the webcast that there will be a new VMS roadmap
presented at HPTF. Will they further scale it down and only show VMS
versions that will tracks IA64 product releases ? We'll have to stay
tuned for that.
When Digital went to Compaq and when Compaq went to HP, VMS remained
pretty much itself with the same staff, same engineers (yes, there was
downsizing, but those who stayed have been there for a long while).
Having constant staff (like Sue) gives a sense of continuity through the
corporate changes. You have someone you know to inform you of what is
going on(in as much as she was allowed to).
Now, HP is wiping the slate clean and starting a totally new management
team and new VMS engineering. Even if HP's intentions were to acceleare
the pace of development for VMS, there would still be reasons to be
concerned since we have no clue on what the new VMS
engineering/management team will be like.
But HP isn't even giving any indication of the pace of development it
intends to have for VMS.
If you are comfortable with HP's handling of VMS and still think that a
new customers could invest in VMS to build new applicatiosn and have
confidence that VMS will be developped 5 years from now, tben that is
your right.
Jan-Erik Söderholm
Hemanand Chengalath ("Hema") from the "OpenVMS lab
in India" in Stockholm the 10-June. Seems interesting
enought for a trip to Stockholm... :-)
Jan-Erik.
Agenda in short :
- Introduction, HP-Connect Sweden.
- OpenVMS organisation, Shobha HP
- OpenVMS strategies and plans, Hema HP
- Q&A session
- Picknick in the Haga Park (see "*" below...)
�The OpenVMS Group would like to take the opportunity to
personally introduce you to Shobha Benakatti and Hemanand
Chengalath. Shobha is the Director of the OpenVMS Lab within
our STSD group and is responsible for all OpenVMS engineering
in Bangalore India. Reporting to Shobha, Hema manages one of the
engineering teams and has also assumed responsibility for
world-wide OpenVMS customer engagements.
This will be the first chance for Shobha, in her enhanced role,
and Hema to meet with some of our key customers and partners,
the main purpose of the meeting being to introduce Shobha to
those key customers and give her the opportunity to talk about
the work going on in Bangalore and the future of OpenVMS,
plus respond to any concerns or issues affecting our customers.
Accompanying Shobha and Hema will be Chris Brown, the current
Director of Strategy for the OpenVMS group.�
(*)
http://www.solna.se/templates/Page_solna_submenu____16777.aspx
Richard Maher
"Jan-Erik S�derholm" <jan-erik....@telia.com> wrote in message
news:4kDSl.9078$U5.1...@newsb.telia.net...
> Just got an invitation to meet Shobha Benakatti and
> Hemanand Chengalath ("Hema") from the "OpenVMS lab
> in India" in Stockholm the 10-June. Seems interesting
> enought for a trip to Stockholm... :-)
Certainly does! Please send tickets and beer tokens :-)
>
> Jan-Erik.
Cheers Richard Maher
>
John Smith (not the one @ HP)
"Jan-Erik S�derholm" <jan-erik....@telia.com> wrote in message
news:4kDSl.9078$U5.1...@newsb.telia.net...
> Hemanand Chengalath ("Hema") from the "OpenVMS lab
> in India" in Stockholm the 10-June. Seems interesting
> enought for a trip to Stockholm... :-)
>
> Jan-Erik.
>
>
>
> Agenda in short :
>
> - Introduction, HP-Connect Sweden.
> - OpenVMS organisation, Shobha HP
> - OpenVMS strategies and plans, Hema HP
> - Q&A session
> - Picknick in the Haga Park (see "*" below...)
>
> personally introduce you to Shobha Benakatti and Hemanand
> Chengalath. Shobha is the Director of the OpenVMS Lab within
> our STSD group and is responsible for all OpenVMS engineering
> in Bangalore India. Reporting to Shobha, Hema manages one of the
> engineering teams and has also assumed responsibility for
> world-wide OpenVMS customer engagements.
>
> This will be the first chance for Shobha, in her enhanced role,
> and Hema to meet with some of our key customers and partners,
> the main purpose of the meeting being to introduce Shobha to
> those key customers and give her the opportunity to talk about
> the work going on in Bangalore and the future of OpenVMS,
> plus respond to any concerns or issues affecting our customers.
>
> Accompanying Shobha and Hema will be Chris Brown, the current
A blunt question to ask is about the quality and experience level of the
people at the Indian development site vs. people who were formerly in the
Nashua development group, like Hoff, Leo Demers, et. al. Ask about the
staffing levels in the development group vs. Nashua this past year, and vs.
Nashua 5 years ago.
Ask about what happens if there is a 'language' barrier. There are plenty of
really smart people in India but sometimes it's nearly impossible to
communicate the essense of a problem due to language and/or curltural
barriers.
You'll probably only get a smoke & mirrors corporate bafflegab answer but
you may be able to read between the lines.
John Smith (not the one @ HP)
"P. Sture" <paul.stu...@hispeed.ch> wrote in message
news:paul.sture.nospam-8...@mac.sture.ch...
> In article
> <477e0a54-8853-409c...@h23g2000vbc.googlegroups.com>,
> DaveG <david.g...@abbott.com> wrote:
>
>> On May 20, 12:58 pm, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spam...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
>> > About Bootcamp:
>> >
>> > "When HP comes up with the money, we'll talk about it"
>>
>> Gotta wonder if HP actually lost any money on the bootcamps. It
>> wasn't free !!
>
> I had the impression they were self-supporting. Of course if you start
> putting engineers' time at cross departmental rates onto that budget,
> things can look quite different.
Flying them in from India isn't cheap.
John Smith (not the one @ HP)
"Sue" <susan_s...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2ab84099-1a58-4202...@v4g2000vba.googlegroups.com...
Well that's a problem then.
Bill Gunshannon
So which is it? The government, especially DOD, are HP's biggest
customers or they went to third party maintenance 20 years ago and
are no longer HP customers?
Can't keep having it both ways.
Bill Gunshannon
Not to worry. The cost will come off the top of the VMS development
budget.
Bob Koehler
>
> It has been serious engineers who put out quality code and
> documentation. In the end, this is what really differentiates VMS. It
> was also good support.
>
> This is being changed now.
You know that some of the engineers are changing. You do not know
that quality is changing. Your assumption that it is only reveals
your predjudice toward Indians.
pe...@peut.org
> In article <4679$4a1b2563$45c4bfa2$22...@teksavvy.com-free>,
> "John Smith \(not the one @ HP\)" <a...@nonymous.com> writes:
>
>
>
>
>
> >news:paul.sture.nospam-8...@mac.sture.ch...
> >> In article
> >> <477e0a54-8853-409c-8f94-17d78e028...@h23g2000vbc.googlegroups.com>,
> >> DaveG <david.gudew...@abbott.com> wrote:
>
> >>> On May 20, 12:58 pm, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spam...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> >>> > About Bootcamp:
>
> >>> > "When HP comes up with the money, we'll talk about it"
>
> >>> Gotta wonder if HP actually lost any money on the bootcamps. It
> >>> wasn't free !!
>
> >> I had the impression they were self-supporting. Of course if you start
> >> putting engineers' time at cross departmental rates onto that budget,
> >> things can look quite different.
>
> > Flying them in from India isn't cheap.
>
> Not to worry. The cost will come off the top of the VMS development
> budget.
>
> bill
>
> --
> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
> University of Scranton |
> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
What's wrong with a boot camp in India?
My employer will not pay for the expenses anyway, he doesn't
care what the ocean is called that needs to be crossed.
JF Mezei
> You know that some of the engineers are changing. You do not know
> that quality is changing. Your assumption that it is only reveals
> your predjudice toward Indians.
Say you had 100 US engineers, and 20 indian engineers in the past. All
with lots of experience with VMS.
YOu are now in a situation where you might have 5 US engineers left, the
original 20 experienced indian ones, and 80 brand spanking new ones that
HP refuses to even acknowledge.
It is very doubtful that those 80 new ones have sigfnificant VMS
experience. And remember that HP refuses to state how many engineering
staff will be left once is all said and done by october 31.
What we don't know is who will really make decisions about the roadmap.
(for instance a dicision similar to removing IPsec from roadmap). If
this is done out of HP headquarters in Kalifornia, will it be done by
VMS management in India, or would it be done by whatever squeletton
staff left in new england ? We don't know.
Void in hard information results in necessary specualtion on what is
really happening.
In the end, perhaps it is beyond that point. Say HP has already decided
to kill VMS in 2011. They are moving in that direction, but denying it
and pretending they have every intention to continue to develop VMS.
There is nothing we can do to change this. And iof the announcement of
VMS' retirement comes in a year or two, it doesn't make much difference
because customers will get the official bad news soon enough that
speculation won't change much.
But if HP intends to pretend to develop VMS for 10 years when its real
plans are to do just one or two token releases, and let VMS die with
IA64, then ot does matter that people take their heads out of the sand
because in the end, VMS' lag behin others will increase significantly as
time progresses and it will trulty only run legacy software and truly be
a legacy OS due to a development timeline that is way too slow.
So yes, it matters very much to know whether HP intends to slow down VMS
development, and how much because that defines the odds of VMS being
able to run modern software.
David J Dachtera
How so? There's no mention of geography, ethnicity, culture, etc. in
JF's statement.
That quality will change is self-evident. From life-long professionals
who spent a considerable portion of their careers working with and
developing OpenVMS you're changing to a group who have been doing so for
considerably less time and, in some cases, are much younger than the
folks they will replace.
Expecting quality to not be impacted is not reasonable and flies in the
face of logic.
D.J.D.
David J Dachtera
>
> On May 20, 12:58 pm, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spam...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> > About Bootcamp:
> >
> > "When HP comes up with the money, we'll talk about it"
>
> Gotta wonder if HP actually lost any money on the bootcamps. It
> wasn't free !!
Sue always made it very clear that the bootcamp was self-funding. Hence,
there was always a minimum level of paying attenance needed to cover the
expenses. I always figured the maximum was intentionally imposed
artificially to support the quality of the event.
If there was any subsidy from HP, she never expressed that, AFAICR.
D.J.D.
David J Dachtera
Hhhmmm... Interesting point.
From reading this group is appears that the bulk of the remaining VMS
customer base is outside of the U.S. So, a non-U.S. event begins to make
sense at that level.
I'd want to examine the available infrastructure and accomodations for
travellers. Last I heard, airports and mass transit there are much more,
shall we say, "utilized" than in U.S. metropolitan areas.
Socio-political "exposure" might preclude many attendees who would
likely have a much easier time obtaining approval for travel to the U.S.
than to an area which is a relative "hot bed" for activities which place
travellers at risk.
> My employer will not pay for the expenses anyway, he doesn't
> care what the ocean is called that needs to be crossed.
True, names tend to be irrelevant. The surrounding socio-political
climate and the associated risk exposure DOES matter, however.
In the U.S. corporate climate, workers are considered "replaceable", but
not necessarily "expendable".
D.J.D.
John Smith (not the one @ HP)
"David J Dachtera" <djes...@spam.comcast.net> wrote in message
news:4A1D6490...@spam.comcast.net...
<cynical>
Following that logic, given that many costs are lower in India....perhaps HP
could breakeven if there were as few as 10 Bootcamp attendees .
</cyncial>
P. Sture
Thanks for the confirmation David.
Incidentally, since I don't think anyone has mentioned it, the software
used for the webinar was not only easy to use but ran flawlessly even on
my ageing Mac.
--
Paul Sture