Why not pick *nice* places for the Usenix conventions?
Michel Fingerhut
the heart of a nice, populated city, with a convention center say, rather than
in an isolated (i.e., suburbs) gigantic hotel which requires one to rent a car
in order to go anywhere rather than use one's legs.
Baltimore, Phoenix, Washington were good examples; Nashville, Dallas and Miami
Beach were not.
I understand that for some (obscure) reason international Usenix conventions
have to be held in mainland USA (rather than in Canada or Mexico, say, or more
exotic places). But I suppose there are plenty of nice US cities in which it
could be held and that would still attract attendees; to name but a few: New
Orleans (where I attended a POPL conf. in the vieux carre'), Santa Fe,
Cleveland, Boston... I am sure there are many others.
Just a wish.
Barry Shein
If you look at the list of future conference sites I believe you will
be mostly pleased:
Winter '92 San Francisco
Summer '92 San Antonio
Winter '93 San Diego
Summer '93 Cincinnati
Winter '94 San Francisco
Summer '94 Boston
Winter '95 New Orleans
Summer '95 San Francisco
After that everything goes dark...
--
-Barry Shein
Software Tool & Die | b...@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD
Brad Templeton
year's show a bit later (July 8-12) in Mazatlan, Mexico or Hilo, Hawaii
and had the best attended Usenix ever.
(As long as they didn't schedule any papers at the time of the real
draw...)
--
Brad Templeton, ClariNet Communications Corp. -- Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473
Brad Templeton
you, but in June?
(Of course, I just suggested we should have held this year's in Mexico, but
there was a special reason for that.)
Barry Shein
From: br...@looking.on.ca (Brad Templeton)
>Good Lord, Barry, Summer in San Antonio? I have nothing against Texas, mind
>you, but in June?
Ah, there ya go, killing the messenger...
These decisions are made a few years in advance, I think the first one
the current board voted on was Boston in Summer '94. Hmm, even that
may have been at the joint old board + elected board meeting.
San Antonio will be down on the river walk, I've never been there but
I hear it is very nice and full of things to do (and remember the
Alamo.)
I am sure we will hear more about San Antonio shortly, right here...
Michel Fingerhut
place where the conference takes place is *in* these cities or in some
suburb, like it was in Nashville or Dallas. That's what I really meant
to address.
Tim Bray
facility, I suggest the following:
Rule out any venue whose name contains the suffix "-land".
Tim Bray, Open Text Systems
Barry Shein
Hmm, intent on making me work for a living...
Here's the ones I know about, I am sure the office can supply full
details, apologies in advance for any errors:
1. Winter '92 - San Francisco Hilton, as downtown as you can get, I
liked this hotel *a lot* the last time we had a conference
there. Great location, fine hotel. With the whole Silicon
Valley + SF + Berkeley crowd coming in (like last time) I'd
say if you're going to only go to one USENIX in your life
make it this one.
2. Summer '92 - San Antonio Marriott, on the river walk (maybe someone
else can fill in details on where that is exactly.)
3. Winter '93 - San Diego Town & Country, in town, not quite downtown
but a few minutes drive, certainly not "out in the suburbs" by
any means.
4. Summer '93 - Cincinnatti Hyatt (no idea, maybe someone else knows.)
5. Winter '94 - San Francisco Hilton again!
6. Summer '94 - Boston Marriott (near the Hynes I assume, right downtown,
15-minute walk from the center of Boston and right on the transit
system to get anywhere in Boston or Cambridge for, well, whatever
they're charging in '94, around $1.)
7. Winter '95 - New Orleans Marriott, 5-minute walk from the French
Quarter, Bourbon St and all that.
*NOTICE - SITES MORE THAN A COUPLE OF YEARS OUT ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE*
It's not likely, but for all we know New Orleans might sink into the
sea before '95, or the hotel go belly-up etc., or some other
extenuating circumstance, in which case we'd obviously have to adjust
and probably even change the city as suitable alternate meeting space
may not be available for the dates we need in the same city.
Actually, all sites are subject to change, of course, if something
disasterous occurs.
Brian Kantor
>1. Winter '92 - San Francisco Hilton, as downtown as you can get, I
> liked this hotel *a lot* the last time we had a conference
> there.
And if they haven't fixed the goddamn fire alarm system in that hotel by
now, I suggest we
1) issue a supply of earplugs
2) hold a bonfire in the lobby
3) wake up the manager at 4 am and ring his bell for 15 minutes straight
4) strew tacks all over the floor in the manager's office to
simulate running down 15 stories of concrete steps barefoot
5) sue
And no, it WASN'T pranksters, it was a brand new system, according to
the security guard. Three times in one night, and not a single night
without at least one false alarm. Phooey. Now I understand why people
die in hotel fires - they learn to ignore the alarms.
- Brian
Jason Martin Levitt
> As a simple heuristic for optimizing the quality of the conference
> facility, I suggest the following:
>
> Rule out any venue whose name contains the suffix "-land".
>
That rules out San Antonio which is in Bubbaland.
> b...@world.std.com (Barry Shein) writes:
> 2. Summer '92 - San Antonio Marriott, on the river walk (maybe someone
> else can fill in details on where that is exactly.)
The river walk is in the heart of downtown San Antonio. The
polluted "river" [more like a stream really] is the Olmos or San
Antonio river [can't recall which] that runs through downtown San Antonio.
Some large hotels along with numerous restaurants and bars are lined up
along a fairly long stretch [0.3 miles?] of the river which has
concrete walls and sidewalks along it. At night, it's pleasant to walk
along the river and check out the venues.
----Jason
-----
Jason Martin Levitt email: ja...@cs.utexas.edu
"Since there are virtually no rules, the catalog of information includes
voluminous pornography, along with advice on recreational drugs,
satanism, paganism, and sex slaves."
--the Houston Chronicle describing the "internet" to its readers.
Sunday, June 10th, 1990
Steve Simmons
>As a simple heuristic for optimizing the quality of the conference
>facility, I suggest the following:
> Rule out any venue whose name contains the suffix "-land".
Like, say, Disney-land?
--
"FACT: less than 10% of the psychiatrists in the US are actually
practicing cannibals." Rod Johnson
Dave Sill
>Now that I got your attention... I would much prefer Usenix to take place in
>the heart of a nice, populated city, with a convention center say, rather than
>in an isolated (i.e., suburbs) gigantic hotel which requires one to rent a car
>in order to go anywhere rather than use one's legs.
You can't please all of the folks all of the time.
>I understand that for some (obscure) reason international Usenix conventions
>have to be held in mainland USA (rather than in Canada or Mexico, say, or more
>exotic places).
It probably has something to do with the geographic center of gravity
of the USENIX membership, i.e., most USENIX members are in the U.S..
I doubt I'd be able to get approval for international travel for a
USENIX conference.
I vote for Portland, OR, myself.
--
Dave Sill (d...@ornl.gov) Tug on anything in nature and you will find
Martin Marietta Energy Systems it connected to everything else.
Workstation Support --John Muir
c...@vaxb.acs.unt.edu
>> Rule out any venue whose name contains the suffix "-land".
>
> That rules out San Antonio which is in Bubbaland.
it also rules out Disneyland, which might be interesting. at least,
when something screws up, you could say, "now what kinda mickey mouse
conference IS this, anyway??" ;-P
> The river walk is in the heart of downtown San Antonio. The
> polluted "river" [more like a stream really] is the Olmos or San
> Antonio river [can't recall which] that runs through downtown San Antonio.
> Some large hotels along with numerous restaurants and bars are lined up
> along a fairly long stretch [0.3 miles?] of the river which has
> concrete walls and sidewalks along it. At night, it's pleasant to walk
> along the river and check out the venues.
if you want a preview, get the movie Cloak & Dagger. granted, it doesn't show
the riverwalk in the _best_ light, but i do believe it is the S.A. riverwalk.
but i agree with the first guy (whose text i didn't include). it's ALREADY
sweltering here (Denton) in june, can you imagine San Antonio? *phew*!
-cgw-
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
christopher williams, `gilligan', `dude', c...@vaxb.acs.unt.edu, +1 817 565 4161
lead programmer/operator, the university of north texas, home of the _VaxCave_!
`help stamp out and abolish redundancy!' my other .sig is boring too.
Melinda Shore
> Rule out any venue whose name contains the suffix "-land".
We need a better heuristic - there has to be a way to filter out
things like Rawhide. (I still think Rawhide was more offensive
than Opryland.)
Venue notwithstanding, I thought the last conference was excellent.
And that, after all, is what counts.
--
Software longa, hardware brevis
Melinda Shore - Cornell Information Technologies - sh...@theory.tn.cornell.edu
Henry Spencer
>Now that I got your attention... I would much prefer Usenix to take place in
>the heart of a nice, populated city, with a convention center say, rather than
>in an isolated (i.e., suburbs) gigantic hotel which requires one to rent a car
There is a problem in that Usenix is a rather big convention and the number
of places that can accommodate it is limited. (The limiting factor, I
believe, is adequate space for all the tutorials -- which are very important
both to the membership and to the conference finances.) This sharply
limits the choices.
>I understand that for some (obscure) reason international Usenix conventions
>have to be held in mainland USA (rather than in Canada or Mexico, say...
They've been in Canada in the past, and that may happen again. But it is
primarily a North American conference and the bulk of attendees are from
the USA.
--
"We're thinking about upgrading from | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
SunOS 4.1.1 to SunOS 3.5." | he...@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
Robert J. Granvin
|> >have to be held in mainland USA (rather than in Canada or Mexico, say...
|>
|> They've been in Canada in the past, and that may happen again. But it is
|> primarily a North American conference and the bulk of attendees are from
|> the USA.
And, except for a few instances, the bulk of the attendees must be from
regions geographically noted as "south" or "coastal."
Sigh.
--
Robert J. Granvin School of Statistics
r...@umnstat.stat.umn.edu University of Minnesota
Tom Christiansen
:but i agree with the first guy (whose text i didn't include). it's ALREADY
:sweltering here (Denton) in june, can you imagine San Antonio? *phew*!
Depends on your idea of sweltering: it hasn't really popped into the triple
digits here yet, for which I'm quite thankful.
I was comparing the Nashville temperatures with San Antonio's during the
conference, and found that San Antonio averaged around 10 degrees warmer
each day, that is, upper 90s instead of upper 80s. It will not be quite
so humid there as it was in Nashville, which will help, plus San Antonio
is also less of an aerial mold farm than was Nashville, a blessing for
those of us who had to choose between a clear nose and a clear mind.
Best of all, we won't be utterly immobilized at the hotel. This is more
important to me than the possibly high temperature. (Of course, this
being my 5th summer in Texas, perhaps I've become inured to it.) I grew
exceedingly weary of Rachel's Kitchen by the end of the conference.
Whether we're going to get looked down at by the hotel staff as much in
Texas as we were in Tennesee is yet to be seen, but I can't imagine it
being worse. Three friends and I walked into Rhett's one night looking
for an alternative to Rachel's, and the maitre d' asked, "May I help you
with something?" Come on, we didn't walk into a restaurant just looking
to use their john! I heard other reports of this sort of treatment as well.
--tom
--
Tom Christiansen tch...@convex.com convex!tchrist
"So much mail, so little time."
Leonard (Len) H. Tower Jr.
|6. Summer '94 - Boston Marriott (near the Hynes I assume, right downtown,
| 15-minute walk from the center of Boston and right on the transit
| system to get anywhere in Boston or Cambridge for, well, whatever
| they're charging in '94, around $1.)
It's on the other side of the Prudential Center from the Hynes on
Huntington Avenue (a block southwest of Copley Square (which is also
the closest subway stop)), in the Copley Place development. The
Marriott is about a block walk from the Back Bay Amtrak railroad
station and about a three block walk from the Hynes through the
Prudential Center.
All the good restaurants, night spots and sights are under a half hour
trip on the transit system, and many are within walking distance.
Boston is a world class city that is very compact and walkable. Come
and enjoy.
enjoy -len
PS: The weather in June is either hot/muggy/miserable or
warm/dry/comfortable (more likely). You are likely to see both in a
few days, as our weather changes rapidly.
Elfling
> 7. Winter '95 - New Orleans Marriott, 5-minute walk from the French
> Quarter, Bourbon St and all that.
This one should be fun -- now all we have to do is move the dates to
coincide with Mardi Gras and for once we Usenixer's won't look out of
place at all! <grin> (Of course don't expect to drive anywhere on
Mardi Gras -- it's a lost cause.)
> It's not likely, but for all we know New Orleans might sink into the
> sea before '95
Entirely too likely as those of us who grew up there well know...
Terri
Craig Jackson drilex1
>>place where the conference takes place is *in* these cities or in some
>>suburb, like it was in Nashville or Dallas. That's what I really meant
>>to address.
>
>details, apologies in advance for any errors:
>
> but a few minutes drive, certainly not "out in the suburbs" by
> any means.
Actually, as I remember, the Town & Country is in an area called 'Hotel
Circle', which is a little valley which contains almost nothing except
hotels & related restaurants, etc. This means that there are lots of
other inexpensive hotels nearby, but there's really quite a bit of land
so that they're all separated by large parking lots. Plus, half of the
hotels are on the other side of a freeway. I've only been at a Town &
Country convention once, but I didn't consider the site memorable.
San Diego does have some nice downtown areas (love the cinnamon buns
at Horton Plaza) but I'm not sure if there are any decent convention
hotels there. Of course, since it's southern California, everyone
is expected to drive.
> *NOTICE - SITES MORE THAN A COUPLE OF YEARS OUT ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE*
>
>--
> -Barry Shein
Just trying to help.
--
Craig Jackson
dri...@drilex.dri.mgh.com
{bbn,axiom,redsox,atexnet,ka3ovk}!drilex!{dricej,dricejb}
Marco S Hyman
> liked this hotel *a lot* the last time we had a conference
> there. Great location, fine hotel. With the whole Silicon
> Valley + SF + Berkeley crowd coming in (like last time) I'd
> say if you're going to only go to one USENIX in your life
> make it this one.
>
>
> Actually, all sites are subject to change, of course, if something
> disasterous occurs.
The next Bay Area quake is scheduled for the Hayward fault south and east of
the city. Sometimes in the next 20 years. In the east bay -- don't give it
a thought.
// marc
--
// home: ma...@dumbcat.sf.ca.us pacbell!dumbcat!marc
// work: ma...@ascend.com uunet!aria!marc
Brian Keves - Consultant
>In article <BZS.91Ju...@world.std.com> b...@world.std.com (Barry Shein) writes:
>>3. Winter '93 - San Diego Town & Country, in town, not quite downtown
>> but a few minutes drive, certainly not "out in the suburbs" by
>> any means.
>
>Actually, as I remember, the Town & Country is in an area called 'Hotel
>Circle', which is a little valley which contains almost nothing except
This is not exactly accurate. Being a San Diegan (not native, but wish I
was) I can tell you a little more about Mission Valley. The Town &
Country is in Hotel circle, but Hotel Circle is in Mission Valley and it is
not a "little valley." Mission Valley keeps going East for quite a few miles.
Anyways, one parking lot to the North is the Fashion Valley shopping
center, which has just about anything you can think of including one of
the city's largest bus terminals. Right across the street (West) is a
Golfing Range and one hotel past that is a huge theater, which usually
has one of the big movies playing. Fashion Valley also has a 4 plex.
If we go East we have a maze of shopping centers, restaurants and
movie theaters. All of these things are a "medium-long walk", a short bus
ride or an inexpensive taxi ride away.
Personally I prefer Mission Valley to downtown. Nothing happens in
Downtown, outside of a couple Jazz bars, after 10 PM. Mission Valley
isn't much better, but that is the nature of San Diego.
If you want action try La Jolla, for those who want to mingle with the
"upper crust", or Pacific Beach for those who don't. These places are
both on the water.
And above all, have fun. But don't let those California beaches or
blondes divert you from your reason for being there.
Brian
--
Brian Keves | Opinions/Ideas presented | Mead Data Central
P.O. Box 149 | here are not necessarily | Engineering Productivity
Miamisburg, OH 45343-0149 | those of Mead or Mead | ke...@meaddata.com
(513) 865-1121 x5767 | Data Central | ...!uunet!meaddata!keves
Ross Alexander
>Circle', which is a little valley which contains almost nothing except
>San Diego does have some nice downtown areas (love the cinnamon buns
>at Horton Plaza) but I'm not sure if there are any decent convention
>hotels there. Of course, since it's southern California, everyone
>is expected to drive.
A friend and I walked from Hotel Circle out to the harbour and marina
Sunday afternoon (Winter 89, as I remember - it was -45 C at home is
the part that sticks in my memory). It was a pleasant stroll.
--
Ross Alexander r...@cs.athabascau.ca (403) 675 6311 ve6pdq
`You were s'posed to laugh!' -- Zippy
Peter da Silva
> Three friends and I walked into Rhett's one night looking
> for an alternative to Rachel's, and the maitre d' asked, "May I help you
> with something?" Come on, we didn't walk into a restaurant just looking
> to use their john! I heard other reports of this sort of treatment as well.
Were you dressed in the latest BSD fashions?
Ah, you should try going to a Science Fiction convention some time.
Not to condone this sort of behaviour, but mundanes will be mundanes...
--
Peter da Silva; Ferranti International Controls Corporation; +1 713 274 5180;
Sugar Land, TX 77487-5012; `-_-' "Have you hugged your wolf, today?"
Ken Sallenger
+>Good Lord, Barry, Summer in San Antonio? I have nothing against Texas, mind
+>>you, but in June?
b...@world.std.com (Barry Shein) writes:
=>San Antonio will be down on the river walk, I've never been there but...
=>I am sure we will hear more about San Antonio shortly, right here...
At least it shouldn't be as humid as Nashville---for the benefit of
those from milder climes such as Canada (:-) Personally, I felt right at
home there.
The great benefit of Nashville for me was that I got to go at all.
I had to pay my own way this year, so driving over made it a
reasonable excursion. Of course, I'd have done the same for any
southeastern location.
NB: if you want humid, wait'll you get to DC in the summer! I was mildly
amused at the open board meeting by the juxtaposition of
(1) complaints about the heat/humidity; and
(2) the number of hands that went up in approval of DC as a site.
I'll freely admit that there's more to do in DC and a wonderful
transit system to get you there. I'm looking forward to it,
since I'm already acclimated...
--
Ken Sallenger / k...@bigbird.csd.scarolina.edu / +1 803 777-6551
Computer Services Division / 1244 Blossom ST / Columbia, SC 29208
Brian Kantor
>Circle', which is a little valley which contains almost nothing except
>hotels & related restaurants, etc. This means that there are lots of
>other inexpensive hotels nearby, but there's really quite a bit of land
>so that they're all separated by large parking lots. Plus, half of the
>hotels are on the other side of a freeway. I've only been at a Town &
>Country convention once, but I didn't consider the site memorable.
It's sort of central, and the smaller and cheaper of the two convention
centers in town. There are lots of low-price motels around, restaurants,
and shopping centers, but the reason there's lots of land is that it's
really a usually-dry riverbed on the exit end of a 100-year flood plain.
Few who have moved into San Diego in the past decade or so realize
that that means, but I remember a 20-year flood that had more than 6
feet of water covering roads, basements, and other structures in that
valley. Amazingly enough, people still build there and they still can
get flood insurance. CAMF. One of these days we'll get some rain,
and the dam will burst, and most of the contents of Mission Valley
will wash out to sea. If only we could convince all the lawyers to
move their offices there first....
- Brian
Ed Gould
>how about Portland again? - I think I enjoyed that one the most.
Everyone I've talked to liked Portland. Judy DesHarnais, our
conference coordinator, looked into holding the Summer '95 or '96
meeting there. The problem is that we've outgrown the facilities
that we used last time, and the new larger facilities there are
logistically inconvenient. In particular, the convention center
where we'd have to hold the meetings is on the other side of the
river from the hotels. Transportation, in addition to being
expensive (if we charter busses), would make a major impact on the
gestalt of the conference. More, I expect, than even the Opryland
Hotel did.
There are lots of considerations that go into selecting a site.
Judy is very good at finding places that can accomodate us. Not
all of them are interesting. We're trying to go back to the
interesting ones more often, but there's considerable interest
among the membership in moving the conferences around the country.
--
Ed Gould No longer formally affiliated with,
e...@mtxinu.COM and certainly not speaking for, mt Xinu.
"I'll fight them as a woman, not a lady. I'll fight them as an engineer."
Paul Campbell
>disasterous occurs.
A good earthquake ? :-)
Actually, seriously, talking about really nice places to hold Usenix,
how about Portland again? - I think I enjoyed that one the most.
Paul
--
Paul Campbell UUCP: ..!mtxinu!taniwha!paul AppleLink: CAMPBELL.P
Tom Metzger's White Ayrian Resistance has been enjoined to stop selling Nazi
Bart Simpson t-shirts - Tom of course got it wrong, Bart is yellow, not white.
Peter Salus
>In article <BZS.91Ju...@world.std.com> b...@world.std.com (Barry Shein) writes:
>>Actually, all sites are subject to change, of course, if something
>>disasterous occurs.
With all the discussion of the heat and humidity and surroundings,
I'd like to insert an entirely different criterion into the
decision process. After the barbaric behavior of the Chicago
police at the 1968 National Convention, the Modern Language
Association, the Linguistic Society of America, and many other
organizations refrained from meeting in Chicago until Mayor
Daley (Sr.) and his cronies were gone. Similar action was taken
where the states voting against the ERA were concerned.
I'm horrified that USENIX will be meeting in New Orleans, in a
state that has the most repressive view of women's right to
choice of all the fifty states.
I'm as uncomfortable as everyone else in the heat, but I find
socio-political attitudes excessively chilling.
Peter
--
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Sun User Group, Inc; Suite 315; 1330 Beacon St.; Brookline, MA 02146
voice +1 617 232-0514 fax +1 617 232-1347
Pat Bahn
>In article <20...@cs.utexas.edu>, ja...@cs.utexas.edu (Jason Martin Levitt) writes:
>>> Rule out any venue whose name contains the suffix "-land".
>>
>> That rules out San Antonio which is in Bubbaland.
>
>it also rules out Disneyland, which might be interesting. at least,
>when something screws up, you could say, "now what kinda mickey mouse
>conference IS this, anyway??" ;-P
I personally agree with the land heuristic. Anyone who wnet to
anaheim could explain it. Sounds like nashville was almost as bad....
--
=============================================================================
Pat @ grebyn.com | There is a fine line between art and insanity.
301-951-5180 | DoD # 2**10 Pat Bahn
=============================================================================
Leonard (Len) H. Tower Jr.
...
|If you want action try La Jolla, for those who want to mingle with the
|"upper crust", or Pacific Beach for those who don't. These places are
|both on the water.
Not to mention Hillside which is up the hill to the south. They are a
lot of interesting stores and restaurants (including Kung Food, one of
the world's best vegetarian restautants). Hillside is a quick cab
ride, or a short hike from Hotel Circle (you can climb the hill
through one of the Medical Center's parking garages).
enjoy -len
Lori S. Grob
After the last Usenix at the Town and Country a number
of people, including myself expressed concern at the general
layout of the hotel, which consisted of campus like grounds
with people staying in buildings scattered around. There was
generally poor lighting outside and many areas where people felt
insecure, returning to their rooms in the evening.
There was also the layout in the section of rooms that I was staying in
where you reached your room by climbing up stairs that went around outside
the building so that it was obvious to anyone outside or in the parking lot
that you were going back to your room alone or that you were leaving it.
Speaking for myself alone this didn't make me feel real comfortable
and I remember several women coming and going in groups because of that.
Can the board say if these conditions have been in any way
improved by say the installation of more lighting on the
ground in remote places?
L.S. Grob
Chorus syste`mes phone +33-1-30-64-82-17
6 avenue Gustave Eiffel fax +33-1-30-57-00-66
F78182 Saint Quentin-en-Yvelines email gr...@chorus.fr
FRANCE grob%chorus.fr.uunet.uu.net
--------
--
L.S. Grob
Chorus syste`mes phone +33-1-30-64-82-17
6 avenue Gustave Eiffel fax +33-1-30-57-00-66
F78182 Saint Quentin-en-Yvelines email gr...@chorus.fr
FRANCE grob%chorus.fr.uunet.uu.net
--------
Michael O'Dell
A representation of your concerns was relayed to Judy who said she
would press with the hotel management. I guess we'll have to see.
-Mike
Henry Mensch
->tb...@watsol.waterloo.edu (Tim Bray) writes:
->>As a simple heuristic for optimizing the quality of the conference
->>facility, I suggest the following:
->
->> Rule out any venue whose name contains the suffix "-land".
->
->Like, say, Disney-land?
that's a good start.
--
# Henry Mensch / Advanced Decision Systems / <he...@ads.com>
Henry Mensch
->Whether we're going to get looked down at by the hotel staff as much in
->Texas as we were in Tennesee is yet to be seen, but I can't imagine it
->being worse.
i thought the last SF USENIX was pretty bad; at exactly some hour
(closing hour) the waitresses streamed through the lobby bar (SF
Hilton?) and TOOK DRINKS FROM CLIENTS and forced them out. as the son
of a man formerly in the bar business, i know it's usually customary
to let folks finish their last drink ... this wasn't an isolated
incident, either; the attitude from the staff was obviously "these
people couldn't possibly have enough money/stature-in-the-community to
be worth our time."
Jordan Hayes
i thought the last SF USENIX was pretty bad; at exactly some
hour (closing hour) the waitresses streamed through the lobby
bar (SF Hilton?) and TOOK DRINKS FROM CLIENTS and forced them
out.
This is California law. Bars can lose their license for this. The
business about getting forced out is rude (though if you only got paid
until 2am, would you want to hang out and babysit a bunch of drunk
hackers?), but the "take the drink ay 2am" syndrome is pretty
widespread in California.
"Get used to it"
/jordan
Greg Woods
>Henry Mensch <he...@ads.com> writes:
> bar (SF Hilton?) and TOOK DRINKS FROM CLIENTS and forced them
> out.
>
>This is California law. Bars can lose their license for this.
The law is the same in Colorado, but the practice is different. Here
there is usually a last call announcement at 1:20-1:30 or so and no
drinks will be served after this point. Only if someone really takes
more than 30 minutes to finish a drink (more than a reasonable amount
of time, IMHO) do they actually have to take drinks. Here the clients
do not have to be out, but the alcohol does have to be off the tables
by 2am.
--Greg
Kurt Baumann
> (1) complaints about the heat/humidity; and
> (2) the number of hands that went up in approval of DC as a site.
Having lived between two rivers in Illinois for half my life and in DC for a
large portion of the rest. I think I can catagorically state that DC isn't bad
at all. At least here when a fly lands on you it doesn't drown.
Kurt Baumann 703.709.9890
InterCon Systems Corp. Creators of fine TCP/IP products for
the Macintosh
Sean Eric Fagan
>the attitude from the staff was obviously "these
>people couldn't possibly have enough money/stature-in-the-community to
>be worth our time."
What, just because most of walk around in T-shirts and jeans, wearing
sneakers or tennis shoes or no shoes at all, and are on the youngish side?
Yeah, *none* of us could *possibly* have any money worth mentioning... 8-)
--
Sean Eric Fagan | "What *does* that 33 do? I have no idea."
s...@kithrup.COM | -- Chris Torek
-----------------+ (to...@ee.lbl.gov)
Any opinions expressed are my own, and generally unpopular with others.
Brad Templeton
>
>Not to condone this sort of behaviour, but mundanes will be mundanes...
The most amazing thing about this Usenix was that we were the ones in
ordinary clothes, by and large, if a bit more casual than the ordinary
conference going world, while the hotel was full of people who have never
roped a steer in their lives in cowboy costumes.
In other words, we were the mundanes at that hotel, Fanfare people were the
"fen." Strange feeling.
--
Brad Templeton, ClariNet Communications Corp. -- Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473
Dan Geer
> state that has the most repressive view of women's right to
> choice of all the fifty states.
i'd agree that we cannot simply do nothing, for,
as always, silence kills.
short of the enormous dislocation of moving
the conference, what might be some suggestions?
--dan
Albert Cheng
>> state that has the most repressive view of women's right to
>> choice of all the fifty states.
>
>i'd agree that we cannot simply do nothing, for,
>as always, silence kills.
USENIX is a computer association and I would prefer it stay that way.
Every city is either too conservative, or too liberal, or too left,
or too right, or too middle to someone.
karl.kl...@osc.edu
> I'm horrified that USENIX will be meeting in New Orleans, in a
> state that has the most repressive view of women's right to
> choice of all the fifty states.
i'd agree that we cannot simply do nothing, for, as always, silence kills.
If Usenix is going to start adopting political viewpoints on every
subject that comes along, I'm just going to drop out entirely and take
up carpentry again. Usenix, a technical association designed to
foster use of and understanding among users of the UNIX operating
system, establishes a policy on abortion? To be followed by what? A
policy on the Brady Bill, and with just as much basis? A heavy-duty
endorsement of or objection to the Fully Informed Jury Amendment?
Where's the Usenix position paper on solutions to the acid rain
problem? On starvation in Ethiopia? On the morality of the Gulf War?
When does Usenix start funding CPSR and/or EFF? At least the latter
two bear some resemblance to the association's raison d'etre.
Pick convention locations because of what it'll do for Usenix, please,
not for what it'll do for your feelings and political views. Pick
your personal and political views as you see fit, as always. Don't
attend the New Orleans Usenix Conference, if you wish, as your
personal statement against Louisiana's habits. And before you adopt
any position of such a magnitude, purporting to represent the views of
the Usenix Association, kindly poll the membership to find out what
view it is you should be endorsing on our collective behalf. Then
you're liable to find yourself in the uncomfortable position of having
to explain why you're bothering the membership with, and spending the
membership's money on, such things rather than fostering UNIX.
It really disturbs me to find what I perceive as an arrogance to
assume such a position on behalf of an organization which exists for
no such reasons.
--karl
Steve Blair
|> short of the enormous dislocation of moving
|> the conference, what might be some suggestions?
|> --dan
Why Dan, You've already provided us the answer, at Winter USENIX in DC:
(*sold*)
we wear our Sterling Silver coathanger pins the whole week there !!!
--
Steve Blair DELL UNIX DIVISION sbl...@upurbmw.dell.com
================================================================
*Notice: "/earth is 98% full, please delete anyone you can...."
-anonymous @dell.com
Brad Templeton
you can get, but I also understand how divisive an issue abortion is, and
would never expect the entire Usenix organization to agree on the issue, or
expect it to make its business decisions based on an opinion about abortion
laws.
If a state had some strange anti-computer laws, I could see advocating
some action relating to that, but it is hardly the role of Usenix to lobby
on non-unix related political issues.
Henry Spencer
>>> ...state that has the most repressive view of women's right...
>
>USENIX is a computer association and I would prefer it stay that way.
>Every city is either too conservative, or too liberal, or too left,
>or too right, or too middle to someone.
I'm afraid I have to agree with this, although for slightly differing
reasons.
"Silence kills", yes... so how many of us said something -- or, more
to the point, *did* something -- when the Soviets were butchering the
Afghans? How many of us have helped (as in, real investment of time and
effort) to set up a recycling program? How many of us have at least
protested destructive logging practices, or sexual harassment of bank
employees, or the lamentable level of science education in our schools?
Is it because we do not think these are worthy, even important, causes?
Or because we don't think we could help?
The fact is that you could spend your whole life on worthy causes, with
no time left to eat or sleep, much less accomplish anything technical.
In real life, you *have* to set priorities, with no more than a regretful
glance at all the important issues that you simply cannot spare time and
effort for.
The question is not whether Louisiana's record on women's rights is awful,
or whether Usenix is a computer association, or whether "silence kills".
The issue is whether Louisiana's record is important enough *to Usenix* --
to the association, not just its individual members -- to justify significant
time and effort. There are real costs involved in changing a conference
location, especially given how far in advance facilities bookings have to
be made for a conference this size. Does Usenix, required both by its
charter and (I think) by general consensus of its members to be primarily
a technical group, have enough interest in this non-technical issue to
take trouble over it? Is this issue *so much more important* than *all*
the others that it is clearly important enough when the rest aren't?
I doubt it.
If enough of Usenix's members care enough about this issue to take some
trouble over it -- say, by refusing to attend a conference that they
would really have liked to go to -- Usenix is going to listen. If not,
one must conclude that Usenix, as an association, has higher priorities
and must, alas, give this problem no more than a regretful glance.
--
Lightweight protocols? TCP/IP *is* | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
lightweight already; just look at OSI. | he...@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
Steven Freed CIRT
In article <1991Jun22.1...@ircam.fr>, fing...@ircam.fr (Michel Fingerhut) writes:
> could be held and that would still attract attendees; to name but a few: New
> Orleans (where I attended a POPL conf. in the vieux carre'), Santa Fe,
^^^^^^^^
You've got to be joking. It's a nice town, I go there often, but it's not
nearly large enough for a Usenix convention. It doesn't even have an
airport. (at least with commercial service) Albuquerque, on the other
hand, with its new airport and convention center could be a possibility.
--
Steve. sfr...@ariel.unm.edu
Steven Freed CIRT
In article <BZS.91Ju...@world.std.com>, b...@world.std.com (Barry Shein) writes:
> San Antonio will be down on the river walk, I've never been there but
> Alamo.)
Indeed, it is. I must say, however, that I have been to many places around
the world and most of the major cities in the US, and San Antonio is the
only place I have ever been mugged 8-{
--
Steve. sfr...@ariel.unm.edu
Bill Vermillion
>be mostly pleased:
>
....
>After that everything goes dark...
And I beleive it was the latest "login" that said that ALL future
winter conference after New Orleans will alternate between San
Diego and S.F. No more miserable snows like Wash or Dallas.
--
Bill Vermillion - UUCP: ...!tarpit!bilver!bill
: bi...@bilver.UUCP
Leonard (Len) H. Tower Jr.
|(closing hour) the waitresses streamed through the lobby bar (SF
|Hilton?) and TOOK DRINKS FROM CLIENTS and forced them out. as the son
|of a man formerly in the bar business, i know it's usually customary
|to let folks finish their last drink ...
* If you like USENIX to formally discuss this with the Hilton, ask Ellie
or Judy. The Bar is an important part of the conference.
* I suspect they aren't paid for the time after closing.
* The hotel management might be mandating the prompt closing. Being
SF, I doubt it's local law forcing them to close promptly. But being
California it might be state law.
|this wasn't an isolated
|incident, either; the attitude from the staff was obviously "these
|people couldn't possibly have enough money/stature-in-the-community to
|be worth our time."
Did you see them NOT hassle people who appeared to "have enough
money/stature-in-the-community to be worth our time"?
* I find that if a crowd tips well the first time they are at Bar,
they are remembered and treated well in the future. Fact of life.
It also helps to have polite conversation with one's server, while not
holding them up, if they want to hussle on.
It helps to try and get the same server every night.
* Perhaps people who dress like the USENIX crowd who live in SF are
behaving in an offensive manner that is rubbing off on us.
* Bar servers are people, are underpaid, often have horrible
management, and usually have families to get home to. Be kind to
them.
thanx -len
Leonard (Len) H. Tower Jr.
|I'm horrified that USENIX will be meeting in New Orleans, in a
|state that has the most repressive view of women's right to
|choice of all the fifty states.
|
|I'm as uncomfortable as everyone else in the heat, but I find
|socio-political attitudes excessively chilling.
I concur with Peter. Inserting millions of dollars into the economy
of a state whose government (and people) has one of the most
repressive view of women's, non-white race's, homosexual's, et al
rights is insensitive and irresponsible. Such choices should not be
rewarded.
I urge the Board to reconsider this decision and select a site
elsewhere. And let other organizations know why. Hopefully, it's not
too late to break the contract.
thanx -len
J Greely
(Leonard (Len) H. Tower Jr.) writes:
>I concur with Peter. Inserting millions of dollars into the economy
>of a state whose government (and people) has one of the most
>repressive view of women's, non-white race's, homosexual's, et al
>rights is insensitive and irresponsible.
Well, let's see. California, DC, and Massachusetts are busily gutting
the Second Amendment (well, what's left of it), and Cincinnati doesn't
recognize the validity of the First (those pesky museum directors!),
so I guess we should hold all future conferences in Bismarck, North
Dakota. Do they support the war on drugs there?
"Who's it *this* time?"
"Concert promoters who have
gone broke organizing charity
benefit concerts. We call it
Aid Aid."
--
J Greely (jgr...@cis.ohio-state.edu; osu-cis!jgreely)
Amanda Walker
If Usenix is going to start adopting political viewpoints on every
subject that comes along, I'm just going to drop out entirely and take
up carpentry again.
I agree. I belong to "political" organizations, and I belong to
"technical" organizations; they are different, and I belong to them
for different reasons. As much as I might sympathize with or share
Peter's concerns, I am not interested in USENIX becoming a lever for
anyone's political agenda, even if it happens to agree with my own
feelings. We have enough internal politics already. Let's not add in
external politics as well...
I think that selection of USENIX sites should be a matter of cost,
services, and convenience for the members, and that's about it. It
should not be a political soapbox for anyone.
--
Amanda Walker ama...@visix.com
Visix Software Inc. ...!uunet!visix!amanda
--
"Truth often suffers more by the heat of its defenders than from the arguments
of its opposers." --William Penn, _Fruits of Solitude_
Hugh LaMaster
|> In article <BZS.91Ju...@world.std.com> b...@world.std.com (Barry Shein) writes:
|> And I beleive it was the latest "login" that said that ALL future
|> winter conference after New Orleans will alternate between San
|> Diego and S.F. No more miserable snows like Wash or Dallas.
SF has been a great place for the *Summer* USENIX, since the weather is *almost* always
clear and dry and fairly cool (as I write this, it is raining in the Bay Area).
A more southerly location is appropriate for winter. Of course,
Summer in SF and Winter in San Diego might be a bit much for the
corporate bean counters back east...
--
Hugh LaMaster, M/S 233-9, UUCP: ames!lamaster
NASA Ames Research Center Internet: lama...@ames.arc.nasa.gov
Moffett Field, CA 94035 With Good Mailer: lama...@george.arc.nasa.gov
Phone: 415/604-1056 #include <std.disclaimer>
Sean Eric Fagan
>not for what it'll do for your feelings and political views.
That's fine, except for:
>Pick
>your personal and political views as you see fit, as always. Don't
>attend the New Orleans Usenix Conference, if you wish, as your
>personal statement against Louisiana's habits.
If enough people boycott the New Orleans Usenix Conference (as I would, but
that's just *my* opinion), then either too few people will come for usenix
to bother getting the rooms for the conference, or usenix will reserve more
rooms than people rent, and will have to pay the difference. Either way, it
is not good for usenix, and will damage the conference and possibly
proceeding ones as well.
I can't think of a solution. I do not believe that the UseNIX Association
should boycott certain areas for political reasons, *unless the membership
votes on it and agree*. On the other hand, if individuals are going to do
so, then the UA does have to take that into consideration when choosing
sites.
Jason Martin Levitt
The River Walk has some hotels, some bars, and some restaurants. You can
also take a slow boat ride down the narrow, polluted river [more like a
stream, really]. It *is* a nice place to visit bars, restaurants, and
hotels, but offers little besides that. If you have a car, though, you
can visit Mexico [2 hour drive], the Gulf Coast [2.5 hours], or Austin
[1.2 hours]. Be sure and visit Snake Farm on the way to Austin! :-))))
---Jason ja...@cs.utexas.edu
Melinda Shore
>I think that selection of USENIX sites should be a matter of cost,
>services, and convenience for the members, and that's about it. It
>should not be a political soapbox for anyone.
Maybe, maybe not. I do find it deeply problematic that we will be
spending a lot of money in a state that is choosing to deprive women
of some fundamental rights. Unless things in Louisiana start to
turn around, I will not participate in any Usenix-sponsored event
down there.
--
Software longa, hardware brevis
Melinda Shore - Cornell Information Technologies - sh...@tc.cornell.edu
Jay Plett
> the conference, what might be some suggestions?
Move the conference. It's not impossible.
...jay
Marcus J. Ranum
If there's enough concern about political agendas that have nothing
to do with the mission of USENIX, maybe the concerned parties could use the
conference as an opportunity to do something outside of the conference,
such as pay a mass visit to legislators, while they're all together in one
place. I don't think that politics and USENIX mix very well, unless someone
is legislating that the abort() library call should be removed from libc.a.
If you feel strongly enough - don't come. Write letters saying why
not, and so forth. Individuals should make their *OWN* efforts before they
demand that USENIX as an organization makes an effort.
mjr.
Dave Alden
>Maybe, maybe not. I do find it deeply problematic that we will be
>spending a lot of money in a state that is choosing to deprive women
>of some fundamental rights. Unless things in Louisiana start to
>turn around, I will not participate in any Usenix-sponsored event
>down there.
Please, please, please take this discussion to talk.abortion or alt.flame
and get it out of this newsgroup. And please don't forget that there are
MANY people who agree with what Louisiana is doing. It's a real shame when
people get so wrapped up in something that they don't know when to draw
the line anymore. :-(
...dave
ps I hope that you reconsider if your only reason for not going is due to
the location, USENIX conferences are too good to miss. :-)
Robert J. Granvin
should make political statements by its actions (such as not holding a
convention in a specified city) when that political statement _directly_
affects USENIX.
USENIX members are more than able to make their own political statements
about any topic they want.
When the political statement has nothing to do with the goals and purposes
of the organization, the organization should leave those statements to the
individuals, or other groups.
I'd hate to see USENIX get embroiled in political issues that it has no
business being a part of. On the other hand, I fully support USENIX
getting involved in political issues that are of direct value to the
organization.
I think that's pretty much true of any organization.
USENIX does not expect me to support their political views, and I certainly
don't expect, or want, USENIX to make political statements on my behalf.
USENIX is not a political action committee.
It's impossible for all people to agree on any topic. I'll make my own
statements and opinions, or work with a group that specifically focuses
on, and is prepared to affect changes in those things.
--
Robert J. Granvin \\\\\\\\ r...@sialis.com : INTERNET
Southern Minnesota Wing \\\ ...uunet!rosevax!sialis!rjg : UUCP
Confederate Air Force \\\\\\ rjg%siali...@uunet.uu.net : BITNET
`Life just dished up some "Spam."'
Amanda Walker
Maybe, maybe not. I do find it deeply problematic that we will be
spending a lot of money in a state that is choosing to deprive women
of some fundamental rights.
I do, too. However, I also know that other members will feel just as
deeply about other issues, or for that matter the same ones in other
directions. What I do *not* want is for USENIX to become a forum for
issues that are not materially related to the business of the
organization, however strongly I may feel about them.
I might choose not to go to USENIX in Lousiana. Someone else might
choose not to go to a USENIX meeting in New Jersey because of their
legislation on gun control. Another person might not go to Georgia
because of their sodomy laws. Yet another might not go to California
because they don't want to be around "ecofreaks." The list is very long.
We all have overriding issues, and we will take them into account. If
few people show up for a USENIX conference in Lousiana, it will have
political effects, and will probably affect future site selection.
However, I think that the issues should be addresses solely by how they
affect the functioning of the organization, not "preemptively" by means
of explicit political positions held by USENIX itself. If we start down
that road, there will soon be no place for us to meet.
Unless things in Louisiana start to turn around, I will not
participate in any Usenix-sponsored event down there.
This, I have no problem with. It's asking USENIX to take an official stand
on the matter that I object to. Of course, there's nothing stopping anyone
from forming political groups, such as the CPSR, EFF, or FSF. I just don't
want to see USENIX become one.
--
Amanda Walker ama...@visix.com
Visix Software Inc. ...!uunet!visix!amanda
--
X Windows: It could be worse, but it'll take time...
Dave Taylor
> I find that if a crowd tips well the first time they are at Bar,
> they are remembered and treated well in the future. Fact of life.
Which reminds me of the fact that on the Starship Opryland, the
waitresses at the Jack Daniels' Saloon were LOATH to serve the
outdoors Usenix crowd after the first night. Stories of freeform
ordering without any payment and random ordering (e.g. a table of
people would have one person order, with everyone else passing,
then a second person would order when the first persons' drink
arrived, then the third... and so on) were rampant, and I noticed
that by the third night of us being there the manager spent most
of the evening in the doorway watching the outdoor group. We
also heard tales of people completely skipping any tip at all, and
indeed of large bar tabs not even being completely paid for, let
alone tips at all.
How do I know this? Because my friends and I did exactly what Len
suggested and made friends with one of the waitresses. We tipped
generously, were understanding of her delays and harried attitude,
and even conned her into sharing a round of shots with us! :-) [*]
By the Thursday night, she was reserving a table for us, even when
we split for half an hour to walk around, and was getting us food
from the kitchen for free too. I don't think that it was so much
that we were an incredible group (though, of course, we were! :-)
but that the rest of the Usenix crowd were so damn unpleasant to
serve.
The water pistols and other juvenile activities didn't help either,
but that's just basic Usenix, I guess...
-- Dave Taylor
Intuitive Systems
Mountain View, California
tay...@limbo.intuitive.com or {uunet!}{decwrl,apple}!limbo!taylor
[*] it's worth noting that she could have been fired on the spot for
drinking while working, and that she *needed* a drink at that point
in the evening.
John Hascall
}fing...@ircam.fr (Michel Fingerhut) writes:
}>New Orleans (where I attended a POPL conf. in the vieux carre'), Santa Fe,
}You've got to be joking. It's a nice town, I go there often, but it's not
}nearly large enough for a Usenix convention. It doesn't even have an
}airport.
Of course, you could consider one of us poor inland states ... Des Moines
(pop ~1/3M) has a brand new convention center, an international airport,
and (if you don't come Grand Prix week) hotel rooms, restaurants, bars,
movies, & shopping -- all connected by a climate-controlled skywalk system.
And no doubt, more reasonably priced.
John "No, I don't work for the Chamber of Commerce"
Paul Graham
|
|NB: if you want humid, wait'll you get to DC in the summer! I was mildly
|amused at the open board meeting by the juxtaposition of
|
|(1) complaints about the heat/humidity; and
|(2) the number of hands that went up in approval of DC as a site.
DC was a wonderful place for the last usenix held there. of course
it *wasn't* the summer meeting. then again some things can balance
a poor climatic choice just as some things can exacerbate it.
--
p...@acsu.buffalo.edu / rutgers!ub!pjg / pjg@ubvms (Bitnet)
opinions found above are mine unless marked otherwise.
Bill Vermillion
>As a simple heuristic for optimizing the quality of the conference
>facility, I suggest the following:
> Rule out any venue whose name contains the suffix "-land".
How about - "-world"
Sorry, just couldn't let that one go by.
Bill Vermillion
>At least it shouldn't be as humid as Nashville---for the benefit of
>those from milder climes such as Canada (:-) Personally, I felt right at
>home there.
Humid - I thought it was a bit dry and cool.
Of course right now it's 1:30am, temperature is 79 degrees and humidity is
91% - just what you are accustomed to I guess.
:-) :-)
Jason Martin Levitt
> In article <1991Jun23.1...@watdragon.waterloo.edu> tb...@watsol.waterloo.edu (Tim Bray) writes:
> >As a simple heuristic for optimizing the quality of the conference
> >facility, I suggest the following:
>
> > Rule out any venue whose name contains the suffix "-land".
>
> How about - "-world"
>
That would rule out San Antonio since SeaWorld, home of Shamu the
killer whale trapped in a swimming pool for crowds to gawk at, is close by.
Also, San Antonio is in Bubbaworld.
j
-----
Jason Martin Levitt email: ja...@cs.utexas.edu
"Since there are virtually no rules, the catalog of information includes
voluminous pornography, along with advice on recreational drugs,
satanism, paganism, and sex slaves."
--the Houston Chronicle describing the "internet" to its readers.
Sunday, June 10th, 1990
Evan Leibovitch
sh...@theory.TC.Cornell.EDU (Melinda Shore) writes:
>In article <1991Jun28.2...@visix.com>,
> ama...@visix.com (Amanda Walker) writes:
>>I think that selection of USENIX sites should be a matter of cost,
>>services, and convenience for the members, and that's about it. It
>>should not be a political soapbox for anyone.
But the market for conventions is such that there are dozens of
locations (if not hundreds) willing to host an event such as Usenix, and
prepared to compete quite agressively in matters of "cost, services, and
convenience." If one state/city/hotel is deemed inapproriate for *any*
reason, there are plenty of others willing to take up the slack, often
on surprisingly short notice.
If "cost, services and convenience" were the *only* factors, then
Usenix could probably arrange a very cozy deal if it was prepared to
convene at the same hotel for, say, 10 years and lock itself into a
long-term contract. But certainly there have been benefits to moving it
around to different cities.
>Maybe, maybe not. I do find it deeply problematic that we will be
>spending a lot of money in a state that is choosing to deprive women
>of some fundamental rights. Unless things in Louisiana start to
>turn around, I will not participate in any Usenix-sponsored event
>down there.
If enough Usenix people feel this way, then there is a real problem with
saying "to hell with you, we'll go there anyway". You can't discount the
social aspect of the conference, and I suggest that many people may not
go if they know their friends and associates they know won't be there.
There is a real potential of a snowball effect, even if only a significant
minority participate in the boycott.
I personally believe that there is value in making an economic statement
by not going to a New Orleans show. But it has to be backed up by
letting the hotel and the local convention bureau (every city has one)
know *why* the cancellations are being made. Enough such cancellations and
drop in the tourist trade, especially to a tourism-hungry city like New
Orleans, has got to send a message as loud as any lobbyist could. Some
people just won't listen until you talk with your wallet.
Is it appropriate to be sending such a message through Usenix? Maybe
not, but if enough individuals like Melinda stay away personally, and
either force the move or cause the Conference to fail for lack of
attendance, the effect will be the same. Moving the conference would at
least prevent the chance of the latter from happening, for purely
pragmatic reasons.
What the conference organizers may need to do -- soon -- is to determine
just how hard an attendance hit would be taken if the New Orleans venue
were to stick, and balance that against the inconvenience and cost of
moving it elsewhere.
--
Evan Leibovitch, Sound Software, located in beautiful Brampton, Ontario
ev...@telly.on.ca / uunet!attcan!telly!evan / (416) 452-0504
"MS-DOS 4.0 was a ... learning experience" - Bill Gates, introducing DOS 5
Skip Egdorf
> > ~~~~~~~~
> You've got to be joking. It's a nice town, I go there often, but it's not
> nearly large enough for a Usenix convention. It doesn't even have an
> airport.
One moment. Santa Fe has a very nice, tower-controlled, instrument approaches
in place, rental-car available airport. What it does not have is scheduled
air-carrier service by a national carrier.
Just because Greyhound doesn't have a terminal on your front lawn doesn't
mean that there is no automobile access to your house.
Skip Egdorf
h...@lanl.gov
ter...@sail.labs.tek.com
+In article <1991Jun29.0...@bilver.uucp>, bi...@bilver.uucp (Bill Vermillion) writes:
+> In article <1991Jun23.1...@watdragon.waterloo.edu> tb...@watsol.waterloo.edu (Tim Bray) writes:
+> >As a simple heuristic for optimizing the quality of the conference
+> >facility, I suggest the following:
+>
+> > Rule out any venue whose name contains the suffix "-land".
+>
+> How about - "-world"
+>
+
+ That would rule out San Antonio since SeaWorld, home of Shamu the
+killer whale trapped in a swimming pool for crowds to gawk at, is close by.
What??? Shamu has moved from the San Diego "Sea World" to the San Antonio
"Sea World"????
Bummer!!! Remind me to do the "politically correct" (TM of someone, I'm
sure!!! (-:) thing and dash off a note the the San Diego "Sea World" and express
my displeasure.....
__________________________________________________________
Terry Laskodi "There's a permanent crease
of in your right and wrong."
Tektronix Sly and the Family Stone, "Stand!"
__________________________________________________________
PS:
For the humor impaired amongst you out there, sprinkle a VERY liberal dose
of smileys in the above.......
Doug Gwyn
>Is it appropriate to be sending such a message through Usenix? Maybe
Certainly not, and if Melinda stays away that's her problem, not USENIX's.
To take any different stand would be to say that the USENIX officers have
the right to apply political judgements on behalf of the membership, and
I hope it is clear that they do not have that right. USENIX is not
advertised as a political action organization; if it were, I would not be
a member. Its officers certainly do not represent my political views. I
personally think MORE of Arizona for refusing to jump on the "politically
correct" bandwagon w.r.t. making MLK's birthday a state holiday.
"Political correctness" is a substitute for objective thought, and as
such it is depressing for it to even be considered by computer scientists.
Dennis Glatting
[ stuff deleted ]
|> 4. Summer '93 - Cincinnatti Hyatt (no idea, maybe someone else knows.)
^^^^^^^^^^^
Cincinnati
do it labor day weekend. Cincinnati has a HUGE bash. riverfest,
fireworks, IT IS BIG!
--
..!uunet!kgw2!dennisg | Dennis P. Glatting
den...@Xetron.COM | so?
John F. Woods
>In article <286EDB...@telly.on.ca> ev...@telly.on.ca (Evan Leibovitch) writes:
>>Is it appropriate to be sending such a message through Usenix? Maybe
>>not, but if enough individuals like Melinda stay away personally, ...
>Certainly not, and if Melinda stays away that's her problem, not USENIX's.
If "enough" (as the original article said) people stay away from conferences
held in certain areas, USENIX will be unable to host a useful conference there,
and would have to reconsider their choice in order to fulfil their mission.
The attendees are not robots and are perfectly at liberty to prefer certain
areas based on trivial things like meteorology, cultural attractions, or
political climate.
>I personally think MORE of Arizona for refusing to jump on the "politically
>correct" bandwagon w.r.t. making MLK's birthday a state holiday.
>"Political correctness" is a substitute for objective thought, and as
>such it is depressing for it to even be considered by computer scientists.
And a substantial fraction of the slamming of "political correctness" is done
from the viewpoint of a diametrically opposed frame of "political correctness",
and as such is an equal abdication of rational thought. I'm not terribly
impressed with yet another meaningless holiday, but that wasn't the motivation
used by Arizonans for turning it down.
Maybe this thread ought to move to either talk.politics or alt.flame.
Jesse W. Asher
>I'm horrified that USENIX will be meeting in New Orleans, in a
>state that has the most repressive view of women's right to
>choice of all the fifty states.
>
>I'm as uncomfortable as everyone else in the heat, but I find
>socio-political attitudes excessively chilling.
Please leave politics out of this - everyone has their own opinions
and if we had to chose a place based on politics we'd never meet.
--
Jesse W. Asher NIC Handle: JA268 Phone: (901)386-5061
Health Sphere of America Inc.
5125 Elmore Rd., Suite 1, Memphis, TN 38134
Internet: jes...@homecare.COM UUCP: ...!banana!homecare!jessea
Leonard (Len) H. Tower Jr.
|i'd agree that we cannot simply do nothing, for,
|as always, silence kills.
|
|short of the enormous dislocation of moving
|the conference, what might be some suggestions?
Is it really a enormous dislocation? Its far in the future, so we
have plenty of time to publicize a new location. I have no idea if a
contract is signed yet, and what penalty it might provide for
canceling. Perhaps the sum is "enormous". But no one in the know has
said yet.
Many people have been nay-saying the idea of moving from New Orleans.
I like to remind people that Peter mentioned that many other
technical/professional organizations like USENIX joined the boycott
against Chicago:
From: pe...@sug.std.com (Peter Salus)
After the barbaric behavior of the Chicago police at the 1968
National Convention, the Modern Language Association, the
Linguistic Society of America, and many other organizations
refrained from meeting in Chicago until Mayor Daley (Sr.) and his
cronies were gone. Similar action was taken where the states
voting against the ERA were concerned.
Perhaps it's easier to boycott when the violence is so graphic and on
everyone's TV screens, instead of the less media-ized violence
Louisana is legislating against minorities in that state. This
violence is bad enough, that USENIX should not be held in New Orleans.
A suggestion for the Board:
Perhaps the membership's preferences for convention siting criteria
should be on the next Association poll? Including the social and
political ones.
thanx -len
Robert J. Granvin
>A suggestion for the Board:
>
>Perhaps the membership's preferences for convention siting criteria
>should be on the next Association poll? Including the social and
>political ones.
I'm just curious what would have to happen if the social or political
climate changed _after_ a site had been selected?
If all of a sudden, a city or state for the next conference did something
truly controversial, would the board then be forced to scramble and try
to arrange for an alternate meeting site, cancelling all of its reservations
in the host city, and then hope they don't get hit with the added possible
costs of cancellation?
Any city, state or individual can do something totally offensive or
controversial tomorrow. They could also reverse or fix it the next
day.
On the other hand, I'd support site selection criteria that helps move
the conference around more to bring it closer (on occasion) to the
people who always have to fly long distances to get to any of the
conferences (we don't all live on the coasts... :-)
Doug Gwyn
> National Convention, the Modern Language Association, the
> Linguistic Society of America, and many other organizations
> refrained from meeting in Chicago until Mayor Daley (Sr.) and his
> cronies were gone. Similar action was taken where the states
> voting against the ERA were concerned.
The physical safety of the conference participants is obviously a
legitimate concern. However, failure to ratify the ERA is not
relevant to any organization except perhaps NOW. The position
that nonacceptance of ERA is somehow a bad thing is clearly based
on adoption of a political point of view, and the really important
point is that reasonable people can disagree on such matters. The
assumption that ERA, MLK birthday, affirmative action, homeless
shelter programs, etc., etc. are "obviously" desirable and that
any person or community that disagrees needs to be pressured into
conforming with your view is one of the most obnoxious
characteristics of the modern so-called liberal. I submit that all
these and similar political issues are incorrect or at least
disputable, and trying to impose them by force on others who have
not voluntarily agreed with the position is a sure sign that you
admit to having no persuasive arguments for your positions. (If
you had, you could present them and sway the voluntary opinions of
the others.)
>Perhaps the membership's preferences for convention siting criteria
>should be on the next Association poll? Including the social and
>political ones.
NO! That begs the question. The very idea of polling already presupposes
that these factors should be taken into account. Truth is not determined
by majority vote.
Brad Templeton
Abortion is not related to conferences, unless a sizeable number of Usenix
attendees planned on needing abortions during the week of Usenix.
Even if abortion were related to conferences, would using such an issue
be fair to the pro-lifer segment of USENIX? I expect they are not a
large group, but I am sure they are there, and as best as I recall there
wasn't a box you had to check on your usenix form saying "I support the right
to abortion."
To base decisions on this would be extremely divisive.
That said, it *would* be valid to base a decision on "X% of the membership
has stated they will not go to city Y for unspecified reasons."
It doesn't matter what the reasons are in this case. It doesn't matter if
the members don't like the number of vowels in the name of the state.
There are many European nations with political ideals very different from
the USA's. Would you decline to visit them?
--
Brad Templeton, ClariNet Communications Corp. -- Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473
Melinda Shore
>I submit that all
>these and similar political issues are incorrect or at least
>disputable, and trying to impose them by force on others who have
>not voluntarily agreed with the position is a sure sign that you
>admit to having no persuasive arguments for your positions.
Whether or not you agree with any particular position on any particular
issue, it is naive to assume that maintaining the status quo is not a
political act. Spending money is incredibly political. If, say, 1200
people attend the conference and each spends about $800 above the
registration costs, then Usenix will be responsible for putting just
under $10 million into the local economy. That is not a neutral act.
However, I think that decisions about whether or not to attend have to
be made on an individual basis. There will never be agreement about
most of issues that have come up so far, and if Usenix tried to select
locations on the basis of what will please most of the members no
decisions will ever be made. I think this is an unfortunate compromise
that we as an organization need to make, and that the inevitable
result of this compromise is that there will be people who will not
attend conferences because of their location.
Steven Bellovin
about returning to Toronto? Usenix hasn't been there since, what, '83?
The good folks at the Marriott were a trifle confused, shall we say,
by the prevailing sartorial style, but the city is wonderful. And
the choice of the Ontario Science Center for a reception was second
only to the Exploratorium.
Jason Martin Levitt
> In article <20...@cs.utexas.edu> ja...@cs.utexas.edu (Jason Martin Levitt) writes:
> +In article <1991Jun29.0...@bilver.uucp>, bi...@bilver.uucp (Bill Vermillion) writes:
> +> In article <1991Jun23.1...@watdragon.waterloo.edu> tb...@watsol.waterloo.edu (Tim Bray) writes:
> +> >As a simple heuristic for optimizing the quality of the conference
> +> >facility, I suggest the following:
> +>
> +> > Rule out any venue whose name contains the suffix "-land".
> +>
> +> How about - "-world"
> +
> + That would rule out San Antonio since SeaWorld, home of Shamu the
> +killer whale trapped in a swimming pool for crowds to gawk at, is close by.
>
> What??? Shamu has moved from the San Diego "Sea World" to the San Antonio
> "Sea World"????
>
You, and perhaps others, have been fooled by those clever folks at
SeaWorld. There is no "Shamu". Shamu is a stage name they give to the
killer whales that are prostituted for their shows. The other two names
are "Cando" and "Mamu". So there is a Shamu (and Cando and Mamu) in
both San Diego and San Antonio.
-- Jason "I have never been to SeaWorld" Levitt email: ja...@cs.utexas.edu
Barry Shein
From: s...@ulysses.att.com (Steven Bellovin)
We've been looking at Toronto, proposals were presented at the past
two board meetings for a future conference there. There are some real
strategic problems (I forget the details right this moment, but
something awkward about how we'd have to split up tutorials, sessions
and where people stay between more than one hotel.) It wasn't so bad
that it's been flatly rejected, but it was enough of a problem to
cause us to hesitate and keep pursuing a better set-up.
It usually all comes down to a morass of mundane mechanics*, from
times which are available, to room and other prices and how the space
is laid out etc.
* Even if we can't always get the city we want at the very least we
can have our allotment of alliteration!
--
-Barry Shein
Software Tool & Die | b...@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD
Howard Lem
>
>From: s...@ulysses.att.com (Steven Bellovin)
>>It's too bad Portland is out; that was a nice conference. But how
>>about returning to Toronto? Usenix hasn't been there since, what, '83?
>>The good folks at the Marriott were a trifle confused, shall we say,
>>by the prevailing sartorial style, but the city is wonderful. And
>>the choice of the Ontario Science Center for a reception was second
>>only to the Exploratorium.
>
>We've been looking at Toronto, proposals were presented at the past
>two board meetings for a future conference there. There are some real
>strategic problems (I forget the details right this moment, but
>something awkward about how we'd have to split up tutorials, sessions
>and where people stay between more than one hotel.) It wasn't so bad
>that it's been flatly rejected, but it was enough of a problem to
>cause us to hesitate and keep pursuing a better set-up.
if Usenix is held in Canada. Exhibitors will have to post a bond with
Canada Customs on equipment that is brought to the show.
Choosing an actual site for Usenix in Toronto shouldn't be a problem anymore.
Since 83, a new convention centre has opened and should be large enough
to handle Usenix. There are two floors where tutorials and the confeerence
could be held and there is a huge exhibition space on the top floor. A
local unix show is held there every May. The place is called 'Metro Toronto
Convention Centre' (MTCC) and it's downtown, right next to the CN Tower.
L'Hotel is part of the complex and other major hotels (Royal York, Westin,
Sheraton, Hilton Harbour Castle, Skydome Hotel, & Marriot(fall 91) are only
a 5 minute walk away. (Maybe some of the vendor hospitality suites could
be held in the skydome hotel rooms that have a view of the skydome field.
Of course the Jays would have to be in town the week Usenix is held. :-) )
Howard
--
===============(-: All usual disclaimers go here :-)===============
Email: how...@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca
Canada Post: Howard Lem - University of Toronto Computing Services
11 King's College Rd., Rm 201B, Toronto, Ont., Canada, M5S 1A1
Walter Moore
>In article <98...@sail.LABS.TEK.COM>, ter...@sail.LABS.TEK.COM writes:
>> In article <20...@cs.utexas.edu> ja...@cs.utexas.edu (Jason Martin Levitt) writes:
>> +In article <1991Jun29.0...@bilver.uucp>, bi...@bilver.uucp (Bill Vermillion) writes:
>> +> In article <1991Jun23.1...@watdragon.waterloo.edu> tb...@watsol.waterloo.edu (Tim Bray) writes:
>> +> >As a simple heuristic for optimizing the quality of the conference
>> +> >facility, I suggest the following:
>> +>
>> +> > Rule out any venue whose name contains the suffix "-land".
>> +>
>> +> How about - "-world"
>> +
>> + That would rule out San Antonio since SeaWorld, home of Shamu the
>> +killer whale trapped in a swimming pool for crowds to gawk at, is close by.
>>
>> What??? Shamu has moved from the San Diego "Sea World" to the San Antonio
>> "Sea World"????
>>
>
> You, and perhaps others, have been fooled by those clever folks at
>SeaWorld. There is no "Shamu". Shamu is a stage name they give to the
>killer whales that are prostituted for their shows. The other two names
>are "Cando" and "Mamu". So there is a Shamu (and Cando and Mamu) in
>both San Diego and San Antonio.
>
There are Shamus, Candos, and Mamus at EVERY Seaworld, including the one in
Ohio as far as I know.
--
TTYL & TANSTAAFL ---------------- Walter Moore
Internet: zwb...@hou.amoco.com
Skip Montanaro
I think one of the problems is attracting exhibitors to the trade show
if Usenix is held in Canada. Exhibitors will have to post a bond with
Canada Customs on equipment that is brought to the show.
Another problem is trying to get spare parts across the border quickly. If a
vendor's equipment breaks or is delivered DOA and the trade show is in the
US, they just FedEx the spares to the show. If the parts have to go over the
border, even to Canada, there are significant customs delays. I learned this
last year while chatting with a SIGGRAPH board member. I had posed the same
question, "Why not Canada?"
I also asked, "Why not New York?" There turned out the be two reasons. The
first is the obvious expense. The second was that most exhibitors couldn't
stand to have something like 30% of their equipment stolen, which is
apparently pretty typical there...
--
Skip (mont...@crdgw1.ge.com)
Fuat C. Baran
>I also asked, "Why not New York?" There turned out the be two reasons. The
>first is the obvious expense. The second was that most exhibitors couldn't
>stand to have something like 30% of their equipment stolen, which is
>apparently pretty typical there...
Does anybody have dollar figures for how the costs compare between New
York and the various other Usenix cities? I would imagine that if
expense is one of the deciding factors it must be in conference hall
rentals, etc. Hotel room costs for attendees shouldn't be all that
different ($129/night at the Opryland was pretty expensive in my
opinion).
As to equipment theft, I wonder where they get stolen. Obviously if
you leave anything unattended at the loading docks, it will disappear
in a matter of minutes. Shouldn't cost too much to hire 24hr security
guards for the exhibit hall for the 3-4 days, and insurance should
cover any theft (though the premium might be a bit more...)
Just wondering...
--Fuat
Internet: fu...@columbia.edu U.S. MAIL: Columbia University
BITNET: fuat@cunixc Center for Computing Activities
UUCP: ...!rutgers!columbia!cunixf!fuat 712 Watson Labs, 612 W115th St.
Phone: (212) 854-5128 Fax: (212) 662-6442 New York, NY 10025