Is ActiveTcl 8.5 release to be used as it is?
Georgios Petasis
I just tried to upgrade to ActiveTcl 8.5. I uninstalled ActiveTcl 8.4
and installed AtciveTcl 8.5. But all the packages described in the
help/html files (like BWidgets, tcllib, tklib, etc) are missing.
I recall that these packages were missing also from ActiveTcl 8.5 betas,
but I assumed the omission was due to the beta state.
Initially, I thought that I had to use the teacup interface to retrive
them from a repository, but my attempts failed to install anything,
because the teacup exe tries to execute "tclsh.exe" which is not
included in ActiveTcl 8.5.
What am I missing? How is ActiveTcl 8.5 supposed to be installed?
George
Robert Hicks
wrote:
I had the same problem. I copied the tclsh8.5.exe to tclsh.exe and
teacup works fine now. I think it was a mistake for ActiveState to do
that but the reply I got back from support is that is the way it is
for this release. Why would you require teacup to use tclsh.exe and
not ship tclsh.exe is beyond me. I have it fixed now and hope they fix
it in the next release.
Robert
Jeff Hobbs
wrote:
Currently I recommend installing it next to 8.4 (aka "on top of").
This is a fully acceptable install, as 8.5 can use 8.4's libraries,
with the exception of a few that it has to favor.
The teacup trying to use tclsh ... hmmm, that must be corrected.
Please file a bug for it, with the invocation that caused it.
Jeff
Robert Hicks
Grrrr...I emailed support and they said it wasn't a bug but a "QA
decision".
Ah well...it will be fixed and all will be well. : )
Robert
Alexandre Ferrieux
> On Dec 28, 12:54 pm, Georgios Petasis <peta...@iit.demokritos.gr>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
>
> > I just tried to upgrade to ActiveTcl 8.5. I uninstalled ActiveTcl 8.4
> > and installed AtciveTcl 8.5. But all the packages described in the
> > help/html files (like BWidgets, tcllib, tklib, etc) are missing.
> > I recall that these packages were missing also from ActiveTcl 8.5 betas,
> > but I assumed the omission was due to the beta state.
>
> > Initially, I thought that I had to use the teacup interface to retrive
> > them from a repository, but my attempts failed to install anything,
> > because the teacup exe tries to execute "tclsh.exe" which is not
> > included in ActiveTcl 8.5.
>
> > What am I missing? How is ActiveTcl 8.5 supposed to be installed?
>
> Currently I recommend installing it next to 8.4 (aka "on top of").
It would have been *very* cool to announce this beforehand (or even
better, name the package "incremental" or "upgrade")...
I too was so happy to get the 8.5 that I uninstalled the 8.4 without
hesitation !
(5 minutes later I discovered that TkCon was no longer in the menus...
so now I'm using wish instead)
So, do you recommend that all of us re-download and re-install 8.4 ?
Or do you have a schedule for a fleshier release ?
Also, why now name the executable "tclsh85.exe" instead of just
"tclsh.exe" ?
I have dozens of .bat scripts mentioning tclsh.
It is not really fun to modify all of them at each release.
-Alex
Alan Anderson
> Also, why now name the executable "tclsh85.exe" instead of just
> "tclsh.exe" ?
It's customary/traditional to have the version number as part of the
executable file name. The unnumbered, generic command name is then set
up as a link to the real executable file.
This has the benefit of allowing multiple versions of a program to be
installed, with the ability for a user script either to specify which
one should be used, or to run "whichever is latest" by using the generic
name.
> I have dozens of .bat scripts mentioning tclsh.
> It is not really fun to modify all of them at each release.
Don't modify all your scripts. Just modify the thing they point to,
either by making a symbolic link or by copying the executable to the
desired name.
Robert Hicks
wrote:
You would have to ask the QA team at ActiveState. I don't agree with
the reasons I got back but I don't drive ActiveTcl.
Robert
Alexandre Ferrieux
> Alexandre Ferrieux <alexandre.ferri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Also, why now name the executable "tclsh85.exe" instead of just
> > "tclsh.exe" ?
>
> It's customary/traditional to have the version number as part of the
> executable file name. The unnumbered, generic command name is then set
> up as a link to the real executable file.
Yup, unless you're in Windows where no such thing as a link exists.
Of course I can copy tclsh85.exe to tclsh.exe; but so far I don't
remember ever doing so (and I installed several releases of 8.3 and
8.4)... So why just now ?
-Alex
Bryan Oakley
> Also, why now name the executable "tclsh85.exe" instead of just
> "tclsh.exe" ?
> I have dozens of .bat scripts mentioning tclsh.
> It is not really fun to modify all of them at each release.
But surely it must be trivial to simply copy tclsh85.exe to tclsh.exe
and save yourself the drudgery.
Bryan Oakley
I'd chalk it up to an accidental mistake rather than some sort of
conspiracy.
Alexandre Ferrieux
> Alexandre Ferrieux wrote:
>
> > Of course I can copy tclsh85.exe to tclsh.exe; but so far I don't
> > remember ever doing so (and I installed several releases of 8.3 and
> > 8.4)... So why just now ?
>
> I'd chalk it up to an accidental mistake rather than some sort of
> conspiracy.
Watch it. I'm merely asking for a clear statement, from soemone who
knows, not someone who guesses, as to how the migration is supposed to
work out-of-the box on Windows. Is it too much to ask ?
-Alex
Robert Hicks
That is what I did. That isn't the underlying issue. What if someone
doesn't "know" to do that? To them it is just broken.
Robert
Jeff Hobbs
wrote:
> On Dec 29, 2:41 am, Jeff Hobbs <jeff.ho...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Dec 28, 12:54 pm, Georgios Petasis <peta...@iit.demokritos.gr>
> > wrote:
> > > I just tried to upgrade to ActiveTcl 8.5. I uninstalled ActiveTcl 8.4
> > > and installed AtciveTcl 8.5. But all the packages described in the
> > > help/html files (like BWidgets, tcllib, tklib, etc) are missing.
> > > I recall that these packages were missing also from ActiveTcl 8.5 betas,
> > > but I assumed the omission was due to the beta state.
>
> > > Initially, I thought that I had to use the teacup interface to retrive
> > > them from a repository, but my attempts failed to install anything,
> > > because the teacup exe tries to execute "tclsh.exe" which is not
> > > included in ActiveTcl 8.5.
>
> > > What am I missing? How is ActiveTcl 8.5 supposed to be installed?
>
> > Currently I recommend installing it next to 8.4 (aka "on top of").
>
> It would have been *very* cool to announce this beforehand (or even
> better, name the package "incremental" or "upgrade")...
This isn't the first release of AT 8.5, and it hasn't changed since
the betas. This shouldn't be that big a surprise, as this has been
discussed since first release of the AT 8.5 beta. The 8.5-on-top-
of-8.4 supported install was in fact a design goal for AT.
> I too was so happy to get the 8.5 that I uninstalled the 8.4 without
> hesitation !
> (5 minutes later I discovered that TkCon was no longer in the menus...
> so now I'm using wish instead)
>
> So, do you recommend that all of us re-download and re-install 8.4 ?
> Or do you have a schedule for a fleshier release ?
>
> Also, why now name the executable "tclsh85.exe" instead of just
> "tclsh.exe" ?
> I have dozens of .bat scripts mentioning tclsh.
> It is not really fun to modify all of them at each release.
We have a schedule for a fleshier release (should be Q1'08), but it
won't ever be as fleshy as 8.4 was. In that time, please provide
_constructive_ feedback on what you feel is absolutely necessary for a
base minimum, and whatever else will make the teapot rock solid for
all users. The versioned tclsh has to do with a possible conflict
with 8.4 which we'll have to figure out with a smarter installer.
Jeff
Georgios Petasis
I am used to exist in 8.4 out of the box it is more difficult to
distribute applications. I was used to removing the packages I need from
applications and use the ones that come with ActiveTcl.
But now, if I say to any user (that simply wants to run my application
and doesn't know anything about Tcl) install 8.5, it will not manage to
get the application running due to the missing packages.
However, these days most computers are connected to the internet. I
think it would be nice if we could somehow tweak "package require" so
that when a package is not found and an error is returned, the user is
directed on what to execute in order to install the missing package.
Something like ubuntu linux does when you type a command that is not
installed, but exists in a package: it provides with a description
on the command needed to install the missing package (along with the
name of the package). So, when for example a "package require tcllib"
fails, the error message can be something like:
can't find package tcllib
Please use "teacup blablabla tcllib" to see if the package "tcllib" is
available in the teacup repositories, and "teacup install tcllib" to
install it, if it is available. For more information please refer to
http://...
At least this will give some hints to the ignorant user on how to get
the missing packages.
A second option, would be to have a gui that will display all the
available packages in the teapot repository, and allow the user to
install/uninstall them. This gui should be somewhere in the menus
created during the installation, and preferably run automatically after
the installer exits. But give the user the option to run it at any time
desirable.
Another option (for those who have computers without internet
connection) is to have a second distribution which will install only the
packages that we were used with 8.4 distributions. So as these users can
download the 8.5 distribution and the distribution that has the packages.
Now, regarding the packages I find completely useful (and I want them to
exist out of the box in 8.5) are:
tcllib/tklib
BWidgets
incrTcl
an XML package (preferably tdom)
Img
TkCon
Next in my list are the various tclvfs implementations, tktable and
perhaps tls for handling gzip files :-) [Yes I use tls to gunzip files
based on code I found on the wiki] Perhaps tkhtml coulbe be added here...
But I really would like ALL the 8.4 packages to be available at the
teapot repository, so as to be installable through teacup and wrapped
with TDK :-)
I hope my ideas are constructive... But I really won't like to say to
anyone install 8.4 and on top of it install 8.5 :-(
George
O/H Jeff Hobbs έγραψε:
Robert Hicks
I filed 4 bugs for teacup Friday. I would be happy just to be able to
do a "teacup install tcllib" and get 95% of what 8.4 gave me. The rest
is easy with teacup.
Robert
Eckhard Lehmann
> We have a schedule for a fleshier release (should be Q1'08), but it
> won't ever be as fleshy as 8.4 was. In that time, please provide
> _constructive_ feedback
Hmm, ok... I can install Itk-3.4 via teacup, but 3 files are missing:
Archetype.itk, Toplevel.itk and Widget.itk - which are normally sourced
when you do "package re Itk".
This is filed as Bug 74053 at http://bugs.activestate.com/.
> on what you feel is absolutely necessary for a
> base minimum, and whatever else will make the teapot rock solid for
> all users. The versioned tclsh has to do with a possible conflict
> with 8.4 which we'll have to figure out with a smarter installer.
I would say that a bare minnimum is maybe tcllib.
On other aspects - would it make sense to override [package require], so
that it automatically fetches a package if it is not available?
Eckhard
Martin Saturka
> is absolutely necessary for a base minimum, and whatever else will make
> the teapot rock solid for all users.
From my point of view, tcllib is a minimum.
Then, what about those packages used by TkSQLite?
http://reddog.s35.xrea.com/wiki/TkSQLite.html
M.
Michael Schlenker
> However, these days most computers are connected to the internet. I
> think it would be nice if we could somehow tweak "package require" so
> that when a package is not found and an error is returned, the user is
> directed on what to execute in order to install the missing package.
> Something like ubuntu linux does when you type a command that is not
> installed, but exists in a package: it provides with a description
> on the command needed to install the missing package (along with the
> name of the package). So, when for example a "package require tcllib"
> fails, the error message can be something like:
>
> can't find package tcllib
> Please use "teacup blablabla tcllib" to see if the package "tcllib" is
> available in the teacup repositories, and "teacup install tcllib" to
> install it, if it is available. For more information please refer to
> http://...
tcllib isn't the best example for this as package require tcllib is
deprecated since right after tcllib 1.0 IIRC.
Michael
Michael Schlenker
I would asume bare minimum is something like:
tcllib
tklib
tkcon
Some other stuff would probably be nice and expected, e.g.
tdom
tls
sqlite
For application authors that want to guide their users to AS and teapot
for a base infrastructure for their programs a script to fetch all
needed packages would be nice, kind of a profile that could be fed to
teacup and fetched all the needed packages. Best would be if that could
also create a package bundle, so no online connection is needed to
deploy it to several machines. Would not be too different from creating
a starkit with TDK right now, but without the wrapping up.
Michael
Alexandre Ferrieux
> On Dec 29, 3:43 am, Alexandre Ferrieux <alexandre.ferri...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > It would have been *very* cool to announce this beforehand (or even
> > better, name the package "incremental" or "upgrade")...
>
> This isn't the first release of AT 8.5, and it hasn't changed since
> the betas. This shouldn't be that big a surprise, as this has been
> discussed since first release of the AT 8.5 beta. The 8.5-on-top-
> of-8.4 supported install was in fact a design goal for AT.
Oh -- so all users of Tcl are supposed to follow all the betas, and
discussions on c.l.t to be valid users ? That's news to me. For one, I
completely missed the discussion on this, and just like others, seeing
the lack of tclsh.exe in the betas I thought it was due to the beta
state...
Seriously, Jeff, I'm not being negative about your work. I still think
AT is an excellent distribution. It is just 99% perfect, the 1% being
the lack of a slight warning in the announcement, in order to ease the
migration. It could have resembled this:
Things to know when migrating from AT 8.4 to 8.5
AT 8.5 introduces another paradigm for bundling packages.
"Batteries" are no longer "included" in the usual sense, so you don't
download a huge bundle with everything; instead, they are within
(network) reach through teacup. [quick Get Started With Teacup guide].
Also, starting from AT 8.5 we no longer ship a "tclsh" executable.
It is up to the user to copy/link "tclsh85" as a manual post-install
step. This allows people to keep 8.4 and 8.5 side-by-side in order to
investigate compatibility issues.
Of course, if something in the above is inaccurate, feel free to
correct it...
> We have a schedule for a fleshier release (should be Q1'08), but it
> won't ever be as fleshy as 8.4 was.
I understand. I even *like* the teacup/teapot idea, just like I'm
happy with yum, urpmi or aptget. It's just a matter of making the
change of approach more visible. Nothing more.
> In that time, please provide
> _constructive_ feedback on what you feel is absolutely necessary for a
Not sure why you are implying I've been unconstructive; I feel this as
rather unfair.
Now to answer your question, things I tend to depend on are just Snack
and Img. I realize this is due to my specific context. I'm not ready
to fight for their default inclusion. However, I'd love to see on the
AT site:
- either a "fat" (8.4-like) distrib
- or a one-line teacup invocation making the local repository
"fat".
- or an option in the installer to do the above
So that I can continue interacting by phone with people, telling them
only "just install AT8.5 fat" or something not much longer.
-Alex
Donal K. Fellows
> Jeff Hobbs wrote:
>> Alexandre Ferrieux wrote:
>>> It would have been *very* cool to announce this beforehand (or even
>>> better, name the package "incremental" or "upgrade")...
>> This isn't the first release of AT 8.5, and it hasn't changed since
>> the betas. This shouldn't be that big a surprise, as this has been
>> discussed since first release of the AT 8.5 beta. The 8.5-on-top-
>> of-8.4 supported install was in fact a design goal for AT.
>
> Oh -- so all users of Tcl are supposed to follow all the betas, and
> discussions on c.l.t to be valid users ?
While we don't expect anyone to follow the alphas, it'd be nice if
people (especially package maintainers) did start testing things when we
start declaring betas, since that lets us get the final release right.
OTOH, experience teaches that many people don't try anything at all
until the final release; that's why patch releases are often forthcoming
after not that long after a .0 (of anything, not just Tcl/Tk). :-\
> Now to answer your question, things I tend to depend on are just Snack
> and Img. I realize this is due to my specific context. I'm not ready
> to fight for their default inclusion. However, I'd love to see on the
> AT site:
>
> - either a "fat" (8.4-like) distrib
> - or a one-line teacup invocation making the local repository
> "fat".
> - or an option in the installer to do the above
What about a half-fat ("semi-skimmed"? "pouring cream"?) distribution,
which includes some key packages but not others? Mind you, the idea of
having an option in the installer to pull packages from the teapot is a
nice one.
> So that I can continue interacting by phone with people, telling them
> only "just install AT8.5 fat" or something not much longer.
Part of that's addressable through teapot profiles, if I've grokked the
listings and help messages right. On the other hand, they're currently
harder (and slower) to use than they should be; harder because any
introspection automatically adds a lot of information about packages and
profiles I'm not interested in (wrong platform or obsolete) and slower
because for some reason there's no actual caching of metadata. The first
problem is really to do with who the intended audience of teacup is
(individual users or sysadmins) and the second problem is something I
hope will be fixed. :-)
Donal.
Alexandre Ferrieux
<donal.k.fell...@manchester.ac.uk> wrote:
> Part of that's addressable through teapot profiles, if I've grokked the
> listings and help messages right.
Sure -- but what the heck is a teapot profile ?
Teacup/Teapot may have been around for some time, it's the first time
it is *forced* upon the rest of us. It may be of excellent quality,
that's not the issue. It is simply lacking a proper introduction.
There *is* an awful lot of documentation, but just as usable as "man
sed" is as a tutorial for sed scripts...
In the AT8.5 Documentation Index, in Windows Help format, there's a
chapter named "TEApot Package Management", which is by the way out of
alphabetical order (!), but then I can only see man-sed-like
subchapters...
-Alex
Robert Hicks
wrote:
*Forced*? I don't think so. You are welcome to download everything and
install it yourself. You are not forced to do anything.
If the documentation is lacking...send a fix in. If you find a bug.
Log it. I logged 4 in my first outing with teacup.
Robert
Georgios Petasis
teacup, in order to get it :-)
Teacup is a little slow and it took me several hours to install tcllib.
Lots of dependences, lots of failures and finally got (a part) to
install with --force!
George
O/H Michael Schlenker έγραψε:
Derek Philip
Hi
I'm also a bit miffed, having been used to the straight forward install
of previous releases 8.5 is a pain. I try to encourage people at work to
use Tcl for test automation, often quoting, "just do package require
xyz". Now, once I've managed to create a repository on the machine and
linked in correctly I have to explain the usage of teacup. This is a
system admin job, if I hand it over to them it will take weeks to get
anything done!.
I should be comfortable with this approach, after all I do like my
Ubuntu installation, but I find AT8.5 install cumbersome.
I see it as another excuse for people to not bother trying Tcl if takes
effort just too install it.
I'll be sticking to 8.4 for some time I think.
Derek
Robert Hicks
<snip>
>
> I'll be sticking to 8.4 for some time I think.
>
Hopefully, you will get over being miffed and use 8.5 and send in bug
reports and feature requests. A good feature request would be to
include some standard stuff like tcllib. I was annoyed at first but
don't let that take your focus off of helping.
Robert
Derek Philip
Hi
I have put "Batteries included release" on the 8.6 wish list.
I wouldn't have minded as much if they had the default repository to be
the install directory but now I have to manipulate things and I'm not
sure if I'll be missing anything.
I wonder if you can link the bin in the install to the apps directory
and the lib to the packages directory of the teacup.....
The whole thing starts to generate a lot of admin type questions that
were not there before.
A benefit of including the "batteries" is that it brings a better
understanding of what Tcl can do for the casual user. Very often I have
tried packages because they were there and found a use for them.
Derek
Donal K. Fellows
> I have put "Batteries included release" on the 8.6 wish list.
AS have already said that there'll be a release of their build of 8.5
with more batteries later on. At a guess (as someone who's not at all
affiliated) it's more of a QA and staff time issue than anything else.
Donal.
EKB
I will give my preferred list for included code, but I say this while
remarking that the "80/20 rule" (80% of the time you only use 20% of
the available features) only works for an individual. Each individual
is interested in a *different* 20%. So I would think that a list that
really covers every significant area of application of Tcl will get
you pretty much back to the original "batteries included" list.
That said, here's what I use regularly:
tcllib (and tklib, but more rarely so far)
BWidget
Tablelist
TkTable
Tkcon
I plan to use and very much want:
SQlite
I would like to have included:
Snack
TclDOM
And now a mild complaint:
I'd like to ask what the reason is for dropping batteries included. As
people are pointing out, it has significant benefits, especially
making it really easy to work with people who wouldn't have chosen Tcl
at the outset. The really nice thing about AT w/batteries is that
*finally* there was a very low hurdle for non-Tclers to get started
with Tcl and get wowed by it on first exposure.
Thanks,
Eric
Michael Schlenker
> I will give my preferred list for included code, but I say this while
> remarking that the "80/20 rule" (80% of the time you only use 20% of
> the available features) only works for an individual. Each individual
> is interested in a *different* 20%. So I would think that a list that
> really covers every significant area of application of Tcl will get
> you pretty much back to the original "batteries included" list.
>
> That said, here's what I use regularly:
> tcllib (and tklib, but more rarely so far)
> Tablelist
Tablelist is part of tklib, so already in your list...
Michael
EKB
Thanks! I also realized that my post was kind of whining. I should add
that I really appreciate what AS provides and the idea behind teapot.
Also, the suggestion from DKF that it could be a question of QA and
staffing seems compelling to me. It's just that my first reaction was
to feel a bit depressed about having a more limited distro, because of
the potential for a fat batteries-included distro to get folks
interested in Tcl.
Also, my comment about 80/20 may be off base. Even if nobody shares
the same 20%, maybe there's a 30% or 40% core that covers 80% of most
people's needs, and the remainder they can get through teapot.
Eric
Robert Hicks
I am sure there is some consensus that could be made. I would go for:
tcllib
tklib
sqlite
tkcon
anything needed for starkits
That would be my "bare minimum".
Robert
Jeff Hobbs
> I'd like to ask what the reason is for dropping batteries included. As
I've answered this in some other thread recently, but to reiterate
there are a couple key issues.
1. AT 8.4 had gotten too fat. Too many redundant packages that did
the same thing. This leads to maintenance headaches for us and choice
headaches for users.
2. The teapot didn't exist for 8.4, or it would have evolved quite
differently. People need to get used to it, and you could call this
the cold shower approach. I'm a bit disappointed that there seemed to
be a large lack of attention given to teapot/teacup in the last year.
3. The BI isn't being dropped, it is being put on a diet.
Jeff
Robert Hicks
Well for my part I didn't know that the battle for a Tcl version of
CPAN was over so I was just watching. My bad. I have started using it
so the cold shower worked.
> 3. The BI isn't being dropped, it is being put on a diet.
>
Cool
Donal K. Fellows
> Well for my part I didn't know that the battle for a Tcl version of
> CPAN was over so I was just watching. My bad. I have started using it
> so the cold shower worked.
For myself, it works and works well. And I think AS have done a good
job of it, sorting out a lot of devilishly nasty issues. The metadata
(lack of) caching problem is the only big issue that's irritated me so
far. (OK, it could do with a GUI front-end. Someone's weekend project
perhaps?)
Donal.
EKB
> On Jan 1, 3:00 pm, EKB <e...@kb-creative.net> wrote:
>
> > I'd like to ask what the reason is for dropping batteries included. As
>
> I've answered this in some other thread recently, but to reiterate
> there are a couple key issues.
>
> 1. AT 8.4 had gotten too fat. Too many redundant packages that did
> the same thing. This leads to maintenance headaches for us and choice
> headaches for users.
True enough.
>
> 2. The teapot didn't exist for 8.4, or it would have evolved quite
> differently. People need to get used to it, and you could call this
> the cold shower approach. I'm a bit disappointed that there seemed to
> be a large lack of attention given to teapot/teacup in the last year.
>
With RH, I'd say the "cold shower" worked for me. If it catches on,
maybe it will be the calling card for Tcl that I can use to interest
other developers.
> 3. The BI isn't being dropped, it is being put on a diet.
Sounds good. Thanks!
>
> Jeff
Robert Hicks
wrote:
I like it...I have filed bugs on it. I hope it takes off, really takes
off.
Robert
Jeff Hobbs
Note also that Andreas is currently on vacation, so nothing can be
dealt with immediately. Now is the best time to reflect on what is
there and consider what you really really want in a BI. ("Everything"
is not the right answer ;) ).
Jeff
Robert Hicks
What?! You let him go on vacation?! : )
I hope he has a very good time.
Robert
Alexandre Ferrieux
>
> Now is the best time to reflect on what is
> there and consider what you really really want in a BI. ("Everything"
> is not the right answer ;) ).
What about simply making several differently-sized "battery packs" ?
One of them would be "Everything" (i.e same list as 8.4); another
would be "Nothing" (just like 8.5.0.0); and several in between as you
see fit.
Moreover, the "battery packs" could well be distributed separately
from the core, if there were a way to do "teapot bulk
transfer" ( http://bugs.activestate.com/show_bug.cgi?id=74071 ), that
is, zip or tgz files to unzip and populate the local teacup repository
in a way that doesn't preclude further incremental teacup downloads...
-Alex
Robert Hicks
wrote:
> On Jan 3, 3:03 am, Jeff Hobbs <jeff.ho...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Now is the best time to reflect on what is
> > there and consider what you really really want in a BI. ("Everything"
> > is not the right answer ;) ).
>
> What about simply making several differently-sized "battery packs" ?
> One of them would be "Everything" (i.e same list as 8.4); another
> would be "Nothing" (just like 8.5.0.0); and several in between as you
> see fit.
>
> Moreover, the "battery packs" could well be distributed separately
> from the core, if there were a way to do "teapot bulk
> is, zip or tgz files to unzip and populate the local teacup repository
> in a way that doesn't preclude further incremental teacup downloads...
>
> -Alex
I don't think I would push more than one ActiveTcl distro on
Activestate. ActiveTcl + tcllib + a few more should be about it.
Everything else is brought down with teacup.
Robert
Alexandre Ferrieux
> On Jan 3, 3:06 pm, Alexandre Ferrieux <alexandre.ferri...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Moreover, the "battery packs" could well be distributed separately
> > from the core, if there were a way to do "teapot bulk
> > transfer" (http://bugs.activestate.com/show_bug.cgi?id=74071), that
> > is, zip or tgz files to unzip and populate the local teacup repository
> > in a way that doesn't preclude further incremental teacup downloads...
>
> Activestate. ActiveTcl + tcllib + a few more should be about it.
> Everything else is brought down with teacup.
Oh, going full circle, eh ? Forget why we are talking about all this ?
-Alex
Eckhard Lehmann
>> I don't think I would push more than one ActiveTcl distro on
>> Activestate. ActiveTcl + tcllib + a few more should be about it.
>> Everything else is brought down with teacup.
>
> Oh, going full circle, eh ? Forget why we are talking about all this ?
I think he is right... I wouldn't want to have to create 3+ different
distributions of the same thing - *and* maintain it over a long period
of time. Creating such distros is not very complicated, but making sure
that they will always work and fit together in the long term... that can
cause headaches.
My vote is also for one AS distro, including tcllib. But, again, it
would be really cool to have a [package require] that downloads missing
packages automatically from a teapot repository (network connection and
correct setup assumed).
Eckhard
Alexandre Ferrieux
> Alexandre Ferrieux schrieb:
>
> >> I don't think I would push more than one ActiveTcl distro on
> >> Activestate. ActiveTcl + tcllib + a few more should be about it.
> >> Everything else is brought down with teacup.
>
> > Oh, going full circle, eh ? Forget why we are talking about all this ?
>
> I think he is right... I wouldn't want to have to create 3+ different
> distributions of the same thing - *and* maintain it over a long period
> of time. Creating such distros is not very complicated, but making sure
> that they will always work and fit together in the long term... that can
> cause headaches.
Not distribs, just subsets of the teapot, at any given time, to be
downloaded more efficiently than one-by-one by teacup.
> My vote is also for one AS distro, including tcllib. But, again, it
> would be really cool to have a [package require] that downloads missing
> packages automatically from a teapot repository (network connection and
> correct setup assumed).
Tcllib is your choice. Others differ. I never use it. I rather depend
on extensions.
Not two people will depend on the same set. That makes a strong case
for a 8.4-like full battery pack. Another argument that gets my
sympathy is that during the 8.4 times, I often "browsed" the installed
bundle and played with things I would have never approached otherwise.
A full battery pack has tremendous pedagogic value.
-Alex
Robert Hicks
Um no. It isn't full circle at least I don't think so in the way you
think. I think tcllib is the minimum to include and maybe 3 or 4 max
more. Everything else should be gotten via teacup.
Robert
Craig Denson
Jeff Hobbs <jeff....@gmail.com> writes:
> On Dec 28, 12:54 pm, Georgios Petasis <peta...@iit.demokritos.gr>
> wrote:
> > What am I missing? How is ActiveTcl 8.5 supposed to be installed?
>
> Currently I recommend installing it next to 8.4 (aka "on top of").
> This is a fully acceptable install, as 8.5 can use 8.4's libraries,
> with the exception of a few that it has to favor.
With the most gracious possible nod to ActiveState for providing
ActiveTcl, I have to say that announcing this distribution as 8.5.0.0
was a mistake.
1) http://www.activestate.com/Products/activetcl/index.plex
"Standard Distribution
Complete and ready-to-install, the free ActiveTcl distribution
includes core Tcl, popular extensions, the Tcl Package Manager
(TEApot), and complete documentation. "
2) http://www.activestate.com/Products/activetcl/features.plex
"What's included
Complete ActiveTcl Package
...."
3)
http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/docs/ActiveTcl/8.5/at.pkg_index.html
Completely misleading. Like others, I have not followed all the
betas carefully and only popped my head up when I noticed, at my
supervisor's prodding, that 8.5.0. was announced.
4) The installer notes if you have an earlier version installed and
recommends that you uninstall it. So I did.
5) I also tripped over teacup failing, but didn't track down why and
when I attempted to figure it out from the docs, ran into the same
mumbo jumbo others have noted.
To be as constructive as I can, I think:
1) the web page descriptions should be repaired to describe what is
being provided
2) installation and upgrade information must be provided
3) the installer should be fixed to indicate that installing on top
of a current installation is ok - at least until it no longer is.
4) my idiosyncratic list of required batteries, assuming Tk, in order is:
tcllib (orders of magnitude above any others)
Expect
TkCon
While I use others, tcom, tdom, tclxml, and tclodbc regularly, it
would be okay if teacup / TEApot were as effective as, say, CPAN
at finding and acquiring these things.
ok, end of rant. Won't keep me from using Tcl, but it will keep me
from upgrading to 8.5 at work.
craig
Eckhard Lehmann
wrote:
> Not two people will depend on the same set. That makes a strong case
> for a 8.4-like full battery pack. Another argument that gets my
> sympathy is that during the 8.4 times, I often "browsed" the installed
> bundle and played with things I would have never approached otherwise.
> A full battery pack has tremendous pedagogic value.
Right, I think that is a valid argument. When I started with Tcl, I
did it the same way and I am sure that I would find out about more
useful packages if I had a all-in-one distro of 8.5.
But then I would vote for a full batteries included distribution only
- at least for the free download. There is also ActiveTcl Enterprise,
and when I understand this concept right, it means that any customized
distribution can be created on a paid basis.
Eckhard
MartinLemburg@Siemens-PLM
I tried to follow this thread, waited a while and thought about
mailing or not ...
... I never realized the differences in the ActiveTcl 8.4 and 8.5
distributions, because I never uninstalled the 8.4 distribution.
And ... looking at the CHM help file of the 8.5 distribution I never
got the feeling that I might miss a package I used in the past.
So perhabs I should shut my mouth and be happy.
The only reason I take part now in this discussion is, that I'm not
glad about the need to administrate now my tcl distribution by using
teacup.
If I install ActiveTcl 8.5 on a new system I will need to go to a
console and use teacup to get all the things I need - if I understood
this thread right.
And this is anoying for me.
I was so glad, that I don't have to ...
... go a Web repository,
... use a commandline utility to access another online repository ...
to get all the packages/extension I need!
Like I was glad, that SVN has its Tourtoise, so that there is no need
to learn all the syntax and syntactical sugar of the svn commandline
binaries.
Perhabs I hate this commandline stuff, because I'm already a child of
the Microsoft era, used to GUIs, used to have several ways to reach
the same goals, to have the same functionality, no need remember all
the console things.
I have to remember a lot and I'm even a bit of a sadomasist, because I
work most of my time with VIM and all its key-bindings and commands to
be typed.
But ... enough is enough - for me.
----
Until no real BI ActiveTcl 8.5 distribution exists, I will have to
install the latest ActiveTcl 8.4 distribution (hoping it does not
change in the range of supported extensions), and then afterwards to
install the ActiveTcl 8.5 distribution.
That is much easier for me, than to learn all the teacup things, too.
----
BTW - I never realized while downloading and installing, that the
ActiveTcl 8.5 distribution is reduced in its functionality, that it is
not a BI distribution. It would have been nice to signal this fact. No
matter if the alpha/beta releases have also been this way.
Best regards,
Martin
On Dec 28 2007, 9:54 pm, Georgios Petasis <peta...@iit.demokritos.gr>
wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I just tried to upgrade to ActiveTcl 8.5. I uninstalled ActiveTcl 8.4
> and installed AtciveTcl 8.5. But all the packages described in the
> help/html files (like BWidgets, tcllib, tklib, etc) are missing.
> I recall that these packages were missing also from ActiveTcl 8.5 betas,
> but I assumed the omission was due to the beta state.
>
> Initially, I thought that I had to use the teacup interface to retrive
> them from a repository, but my attempts failed to install anything,
> because the teacup exe tries to execute "tclsh.exe" which is not
> included in ActiveTcl 8.5.
>
> What am I missing? How is ActiveTcl 8.5 supposed to be installed?
>
> George
Robert Hicks
All good points. I started using the ActiveTcl distro because it was a
"BI" release. I think maybe they just want to rethink what "BI" is to
include.
Robert
Uwe Klein
> All good points. I started using the ActiveTcl distro because it was a
> "BI" release. I think maybe they just want to rethink what "BI" is to
> include.
>
> Robert
(tea)potted package retrieval as part of the installation of AS-Tcl?
commandline args and/or interactive user selection
"Would you like to have [all|some|none|selected] package
installed with your AS-Tcl?"
What about meta packages like : all, tcllib, ...
G!
uwe
Darren New
> Right, I think that is a valid argument. When I started with Tcl, I
> did it the same way and I am sure that I would find out about more
> useful packages if I had a all-in-one distro of 8.5.
Or perhaps a standard script that downloads everything from the AS
teapot, along with remembering the date it was last run. I think that
would solve many problems except the "our machines aren't on the net"
problem. (Assuming I understand how the whole teapot thing works.)
A script that needs something from the teapot could first check if the
remembered date is later than the date when the needed packages were
added, and if so, skip pulling down what it needs.
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
It's not feature creep if you put it
at the end and adjust the release date.
Robert Hicks
wrote:
That is good but I think Martin was saying he didn't want to use
teacup but have a good standard "BI" version.
Robert
Edmond Ho
>
> 4) The installer notes if you have an earlier version installed and
> recommends that you uninstall it. So I did.
>
> 5) I also tripped over teacup failing, but didn't track down why and
> when I attempted to figure it out from the docs, ran into the same
> mumbo jumbo others have noted.
>
Sorry to jump on the bandwagon, but I just wanted to echo Craig's
experiences with the ActiveTcl 8.5 install. All five of his points are
important, but points 4 and 5 are especially relevant.
I also uninstalled ActivelTcl 8.4 at the recommendation of the 8.5
installer -- this really must be fixed if a co-existing 8.4/8.5
install is advised.
Furthermore, teapot/cup needs a better introduction for newbies like
me. I didn't know about it until I installed 8.5. The tips on the
Tcler's wiki helped a lot -- it'd be great if they were expanded and
put up on teapot.activestate.com to supplement the bare list of
packages. Additionally, it'd be nice if the installer prompted users
to retrieve packages via teacup at installation.
I don't mean to sound negative. The ActiveTcl team has done great work
and has made it easy for a newbie like me to get started with Tcl.
Keep up the good work guys!
Cheers,
Edmond
Derek Philip
This the place where the user can be informed of what is going to be
installed and where. Further choice could then be given to install from
a list of other packages/extensions.
Information on how to use teacup to reproduce a BI install could also be
given for later reference.
This would at least make it a one step install for people who want BI
installs, although it may take longer and does require a network conection
Derek
Derek Philip wrote:
> Georgios Petasis wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I just tried to upgrade to ActiveTcl 8.5. I uninstalled ActiveTcl 8.4
>> and installed AtciveTcl 8.5. But all the packages described in the
>> help/html files (like BWidgets, tcllib, tklib, etc) are missing.
>> I recall that these packages were missing also from ActiveTcl 8.5
>> betas, but I assumed the omission was due to the beta state.
>>
>> Initially, I thought that I had to use the teacup interface to retrive
>> them from a repository, but my attempts failed to install anything,
>> because the teacup exe tries to execute "tclsh.exe" which is not
>> included in ActiveTcl 8.5.
>>
>> What am I missing? How is ActiveTcl 8.5 supposed to be installed?
>>
>> George
>
> Hi
>
> I'm also a bit miffed, having been used to the straight forward install
> of previous releases 8.5 is a pain. I try to encourage people at work to
> use Tcl for test automation, often quoting, "just do package require
> xyz". Now, once I've managed to create a repository on the machine and
> linked in correctly I have to explain the usage of teacup. This is a
> system admin job, if I hand it over to them it will take weeks to get
> anything done!.
>
> I should be comfortable with this approach, after all I do like my
> Ubuntu installation, but I find AT8.5 install cumbersome.
>
> I see it as another excuse for people to not bother trying Tcl if takes
> effort just too install it.
>
> I'll be sticking to 8.4 for some time I think.
>
> Derek
EKB
wrote:
I like this idea... AS folk, does this sound reasonable to you, and if
so, how hard would it be to implement? It assumes (good) internet
access, but since the installer was also probably downloaded, maybe
that can be assumed (??)
Robert Hicks
This may be "pie in the sky" but when you install XEmacs over the
Internet you get to choose what packages you want it to install for
you.
Robert
Uwe Klein
uwe
Colin Macleod
> dealt with immediately. Now is the best time to reflect on what is
> there and consider what you really really want in a BI. ("Everything"
> is not the right answer ;) ).
Packages I currently depend on are:
tcllib, Expect, Tclx, treectrl, Tktable, sqlite3, tile/ttk, tkcon.
But as others have said, it's easier for me to try using other
packages if they are already there.
If the extra packages are going to be available from ActiveState via
teapot, presumably ActiveState is spending the time to build and QA
them. If this is happening anyway as packages are added or updated in
the repository, could ActiveState just take a snapshot of (as much as
possible of) the repository periodically (eg. quarterly) and make this
the BI/full-fat release?
Please bear in mind that some of us have to install on machines that
do not have internet access (eg. for security reasons). Also we may
not have root/admin access and so may need to request sysadmins who
don't know (or care) much about Tcl to do the actual installation, so
it needs to be a straightforward procedure.
Colin.
Jeff Hobbs
> On 3 Jan, 02:03, Jeff Hobbs <jeff.ho...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > dealt with immediately. Now is the best time to reflect on what is
> > there and consider what you really really want in a BI. ("Everything"
> > is not the right answer ;) ).
> If the extra packages are going to be available from ActiveState via
> teapot, presumably ActiveState is spending the time to build and QA
Make no assumptions that we are QA'ing these things. If they build,
they are available.
> them. If this is happening anyway as packages are added or updated in
> the repository, could ActiveState just take a snapshot of (as much as
> possible of) the repository periodically (eg. quarterly) and make this
> the BI/full-fat release?
This really defeats the entire purpose of a repo, and I hope that the
repo is just going to grow. Nobody would want the entire contents of
CPAN either.
> Please bear in mind that some of us have to install on machines that
> do not have internet access (eg. for security reasons). Also we may
> not have root/admin access and so may need to request sysadmins who
> don't know (or care) much about Tcl to do the actual installation, so
> it needs to be a straightforward procedure.
Yes, there is a fine balance to be met, somewhere between all
extensions and none. ;)
Jeff
Ramon Ribó
> Yes, there is a fine balance to be met, somewhere between all
> extensions and none. ;)
>
> Jeff
Everybody was happy with ActiveState 8.4 download size. If internet
speed is growing and growing, storage space grows even faster, who minds
about the size of the download package?
In my opinion, Activestate 8.5 should contain as many packages or more
that Activestate 8.4
I see teapot as more useful for maintaining the packages updated
than for downloading them the first time.
What is it nicer that telling someone?: Do you want a nice programming
language with everything important inside? Go and download ActivestateTCL
Robert Hicks
> > Yes, there is a fine balance to be met, somewhere between all
> > extensions and none. ;)
>
> > Jeff
>
> Everybody was happy with ActiveState 8.4 download size. If internet
> speed is growing and growing, storage space grows even faster, who minds
> about the size of the download package?
>
You make an assumption here that "everybody" was happy with it. The
maintainer aka ActiveState was not happy with it so now we wheel and
deal. : )
> In my opinion, Activestate 8.5 should contain as many packages or more
> that Activestate 8.4
>
No, that would just be bloated.
> I see teapot as more useful for maintaining the packages updated
> than for downloading them the first time.
>
Then you are probably in a minority here as that isn't the purpose of
teacup/teapot at all.
> What is it nicer that telling someone?: Do you want a nice programming
> language with everything important inside? Go and download ActivestateTCL
We can still do that but with a little more thought given to what is
to go into it. The kitchen sink is bad.
Robert
Robert Hicks
> On Jan 7, 6:58 am, Colin Macleod <colin.macl...@tesco.net> wrote:
>
> > On 3 Jan, 02:03, Jeff Hobbs <jeff.ho...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > dealt with immediately. Now is the best time to reflect on what is
> > > there and consider what you really really want in a BI. ("Everything"
> > > is not the right answer ;) ).
> ....
> > If the extra packages are going to be available from ActiveState via
> > teapot, presumably ActiveState is spending the time to build and QA
>
> Make no assumptions that we are QA'ing these things. If they build,
> they are available.
>
So how do I contribute something I have done that complies with TEA
etc. to ActiveState to put into that repo? Or is the assumption that
other repos will pop up? Or are we going to have repos mirror
Activestates like CPAN does?
> > them. If this is happening anyway as packages are added or updated in
> > the repository, could ActiveState just take a snapshot of (as much as
> > possible of) the repository periodically (eg. quarterly) and make this
> > the BI/full-fat release?
>
> This really defeats the entire purpose of a repo, and I hope that the
> repo is just going to grow. Nobody would want the entire contents of
> CPAN either.
>
True dat!
> > Please bear in mind that some of us have to install on machines that
> > do not have internet access (eg. for security reasons). Also we may
> > not have root/admin access and so may need to request sysadmins who
> > don't know (or care) much about Tcl to do the actual installation, so
> > it needs to be a straightforward procedure.
>
> Yes, there is a fine balance to be met, somewhere between all
> extensions and none. ;)
>
I think we can do something more reasonable. : )
Robert
Torsten Edler
> > that Activestate 8.4
>
> No, that would just be bloated.
Might be right, but who is to decide what is "in" and what is "out"?
Obviously AS did and not everybody is happy.
>
> > I see teapot as more useful for maintaining the packages updated
> > than for downloading them the first time.
>
> Then you are probably in a minority here as that isn't the purpose of
> teacup/teapot at all.
Minority / Majority? Was there a vote i missed?
>
> > What is it nicer that telling someone?: Do you want a nice programming
> > language with everything important inside? Go and download ActivestateTCL
>
> We can still do that but with a little more thought given to what is
> to go into it. The kitchen sink is bad.
This is where the problem starts. Up until 8.5 whenever there was a
new version, i could easily remove the old version and start
installing the new one. No need to worry that something might not work
anymore - yes, i know, somewhat naive, but it did the trick all the
time (at least for me). The included modules might not be the latest
versions, but they worked. Now things are different, quite some
scripts need looking into. It seems we are getting dumped into some
CPAN-like hell - myriads of modules to choose from. There might be the
code that i actually need, but, searching for it could take almost as
much time as reinventing the wheel, with the risk of not finding
anything of use. I feel not too happy with the decision to remove
stuff from the distribution. If additional modules will not get added
be and only available via teacup/teapot, i could live with it. But for
the time being, i will stick with 8.4, until i actually need 8.5.
Robert Hicks
I believe that last sentence is it. There will be some sort of "BI"
from Activestate and I am pretty sure Jeff is reading all of these
kinds of posts. However, moving forward, teacup/teapot along with a
slimmer ActiveTcl is going to be it. I am moving stuff now so that I
can help find bugs and give input.
I liked the 8.4 series of ActiveTcl as well but things change whether
you like them to or not. Best to be a part of the process in my
opinion.
BTW...what do you actually USE in ActiveTcl 8.4? I ask just to get an
idea and bounce it against other suggestions about what to include.
Robert
Ramon Ribó
> I liked the 8.4 series of ActiveTcl as well but things change whether
> you like them to or not. Best to be a part of the process in my
> opinion.
>
Sometimes things change to improve and some other to become worse.
Better than just adapting to change it is to try to influence this
change to go in the best direction. And, in an extreme situation,
provide an alternative (of course, not for this case as AS is making
a very good work).
tomk
> On Dec 28, 12:54 pm, Georgios Petasis <peta...@iit.demokritos.gr>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
>
> > I just tried to upgrade to ActiveTcl 8.5. I uninstalled ActiveTcl 8.4
> > and installed AtciveTcl 8.5. But all the packages described in the
> > help/html files (like BWidgets, tcllib, tklib, etc) are missing.
> > I recall that these packages were missing also from ActiveTcl 8.5 betas,
> > but I assumed the omission was due to the beta state.
>
> > Initially, I thought that I had to use the teacup interface to retrive
> > them from a repository, but my attempts failed to install anything,
> > because the teacup exe tries to execute "tclsh.exe" which is not
> > included in ActiveTcl 8.5.
>
> > What am I missing? How is ActiveTcl 8.5 supposed to be installed?
>
> This is a fully acceptable install, as 8.5 can use 8.4's libraries,
> with the exception of a few that it has to favor.
>
> Please file a bug for it, with the invocation that caused it.
>
> Jeff
I've tried the "on to of" several times over the past year thinking
that AS would eventually get it to work, well it still doesn't. I've
tried this on both Windows and Linux and what happens is that the 8.5
install just adds some files to the 8.4 installtoin tree but doesn't
actually configure 8.5 so it can "see" the library installed by 8.4.
The 8.5 installation also doesn't replace (or link) the wish.exe and
tclsh.exe with/to the wish8.5.exe and tclsh8.5.exe which means after
the 8.5 install you are still running 8.4. Perhaps you could give a
fuller explination of how to do an install of 8.5 (don't leave out any
details) so that it becomes the default installation for the user and
a simple package require will load any of the packages that ship with
the 8.4 install.
Tom K.
Aric Bills
quite some time. If you told the 8.4 installer to install to C:/Tcl,
tell the 8.5 installer to install to C:/Tcl as well. It will not
replace tclsh.exe and wish.exe with 8.5 versions, but it should ensure
that C:/Tcl/lib is in your $auto_path in both versions.
An alternative to installing 8.5 on top of 8.4 would be set the
environment variable TCLLIBPATH so that it points to the directory
where the packages live.
Jeff Hobbs
> On Dec 28 2007, 6:41 pm, Jeff Hobbs <jeff.ho...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > What am I missing? How is ActiveTcl 8.5 supposed to be installed?
>
> > Currently I recommend installing it next to 8.4 (aka "on top of").
> > This is a fully acceptable install, as 8.5 can use 8.4's libraries,
> > with the exception of a few that it has to favor.
>
> > The teacup trying to use tclsh ... hmmm, that must be corrected.
> > Please file a bug for it, with the invocation that caused it.
>
> that AS would eventually get it to work, well it still doesn't. I've
> tried this on both Windows and Linux and what happens is that the 8.5
> install just adds some files to the 8.4 installtoin tree but doesn't
> actually configure 8.5 so it can "see" the library installed by 8.4.
> The 8.5 installation also doesn't replace (or link) the wish.exe and
> tclsh.exe with/to the wish8.5.exe and tclsh8.5.exe which means after
> the 8.5 install you are still running 8.4. Perhaps you could give a
> fuller explination of how to do an install of 8.5 (don't leave out any
> details) so that it becomes the default installation for the user and
> a simple package require will load any of the packages that ship with
> the 8.4 install.
The handling of what is the default tclsh/wish will be done in an
upcoming release (not the next, because that will be soon to address
core 8.5.0 issues).
As to the other issues, that is indeed peculiar. That is the standard
way that I install on both OS X and Windows, and it always works. We
have gone to some lengths to make this work, so I'm not sure why it
doesn't for you. If this continues to be an issue, please create a
bug report for us that includes the install paths and the $::auto_path
of each on run.
Jeff
tomk
They say "you can't cure stupid" will "you can't cure senility"
eather. I was doing a package require on tcllib to check for access to
the libraries, which of course isn't a package any more. Sorry for the
noise on this channel.
Tom K