Modern Tcl logo anyone?
pal...@yahoo.com
visually more pleasing than the flat 2-D feather that looks as though
it is something I might have created! The one on the www.tcl.tk is
better, but only slightly and I'm not sure about the licensing (for
others to use).
On a somewhat related topic, those interested in promoting Tcl might
want to look at http://rubyidentity.org - a whole team dedicated to
promoting Ruby on the Web. And then see the results by comparing
http://www.ruby-lang.org with www.tcl.tk. Not that the latter is bad,
but still...
Not complaining, but just feeling some angst about Tcl. It's like
having Cinderella for a daughter - she's beautiful and talented but
dresses so ugly and talks so little, no prince will give her a second
look.
Anyways, back to my original question - does a "modern" Tcl logo
exist?
/Ashok
suchenwi
> Is there a modern Tcl logo ? Something that has more depth and is
> visually more pleasing than the flat 2-D feather that looks as though
> it is something I might have created! The one on thewww.tcl.tkis
> better, but only slightly and I'm not sure about the licensing (for
> others to use).
Maybe the blue feather at http://wiki.tcl.tk/ ?
Also, ActiveTcl has a frog logo, but I wouldn't call it very
atrtractive either... :^)
Torsten Berg
> promoting Ruby on the Web. And then see the results by comparinghttp://www.ruby-lang.orgwithwww.tcl.tk. Not that the latter is bad,
> but still...
Have a look at http://wiki.tcl.tk/17653
There is help underway. The problem is, I am not a 'whole team'. I am
only me, and my spare time is limited. But I think I make progres and
may even reach phase 2 soon.
"Those interested in promoting Tcl might want to" ... help, though.
Personally, I really like the (new) blue feather logo. Who did
actually create this??
Torsten
pal...@yahoo.com
>
> There is help underway. The problem is, I am not a 'whole team'. I am
> only me, and my spare time is limited. But I think I make progres and
> may even reach phase 2 soon.
>
> "Those interested in promoting Tcl might want to" ... help, though.
>
My issue is not so much content on the web site as the look and feel
and overall impression. I think the problem we have is that the folks
hanging out here are not graphics designers. Web sites designed by us
will probably consist of crowded text in a bunch of blocks with square
corners. And possibly some purple text on an orange background to add
some flash (ok, so I exaggerate somewhat). In addition, not being
familiar with even the tools makes it *very* time consuming. In my own
case, I know the world will be better off if I stick to TWAPI and not
try my hand at graphics / web design!
It's good that you're making a start though, and look forward to
seeing how it turns out.
/Ashok
USCode
...
> In my own case, I know the world will be better off if I stick to TWAPI and not
> try my hand at graphics / web design!
>
I hear ya, I can't draw a straight line!
Speaking of TWAPI, awhile back Jeff asked if you'd be interested in
enhancing the clipboard command in the Windows version of Tk to handle
binary data ... was that something you might still be interested in
doing or maybe already have done?
Thanks!
EL
>
> My issue is not so much content on the web site as the look and feel
> and overall impression. I think the problem we have is that the folks
> hanging out here are not graphics designers. Web sites designed by us
> will probably consist of crowded text in a bunch of blocks with square
> corners. And possibly some purple text on an orange background to add
I like the design of tcl.tk actually more than the one of ruby-lang.org.
What I think is that the /content/ on tcl.tk could be a bit more up to
date and refreshed.
Besides that we could use some blog aggregator or so to have a recent
community feed of things that are going on... And I still ask myself why
there is an extra website for the wiki? This is much better placed on
tcl.tk, imo.
But in terms of design I don't think that the page needs more. In our
times of web 2.0 there are simple, CSS based designs quite more "in"
than the overloaded and picture oriented pages we have seen some years
ago. And this is good so ;-).
--
Eckhard
Jeff Hobbs
> Is there a modern Tcl logo ? Something that has more depth and is
> visually more pleasing than the flat 2-D feather that looks as though
> it is something I might have created! The one on thewww.tcl.tkis
> better, but only slightly and I'm not sure about the licensing (for
> others to use).
The blue feather was created by David Zolli (kroc) and has a free use
license. We can dig up some gimp source files if you are interested
in a different format.
> On a somewhat related topic, those interested in promoting Tcl might
> want to look athttp://rubyidentity.org- a whole team dedicated to
> promoting Ruby on the Web. And then see the results by comparinghttp://www.ruby-lang.orgwithwww.tcl.tk. Not that the latter is bad,
> but still...
Mark Roseman actually assisted with the new www.tcl.tk look and I
think it is pretty good. Maybe not as "slick" as Ruby's, but remember
that Ruby really exists for Rails, and those are all web apps. I
would thus expect a higher level of web expertise per programmer than
Tcl's industry background.
> Not complaining, but just feeling some angst about Tcl. It's like
> having Cinderella for a daughter - she's beautiful and talented but
> dresses so ugly and talks so little, no prince will give her a second
> look.
Yes, I know ...
> Anyways, back to my original question - does a "modern" Tcl logo
> exist?
New logo ideas accepted ...
Jeff
Torsten Berg
> What I think is that the /content/ on tcl.tk could be a bit more up to
> date and refreshed.
This is the plan.
> Besides that we could use some blog aggregator or so to have a recent
> community feed of things that are going on...
This is also planned (nor exactly a blog but a news section), and I
would like to regularly feed some news to the site ... things
happening in the community, new releases of packages, interesting
stuff, you name it, integrating Tcl-URL of course, all that kind of
stuff.
Torsten
EL
>> Besides that we could use some blog aggregator or so to have a recent
>> community feed of things that are going on...
>
> This is also planned (nor exactly a blog but a news section), and I
> would like to regularly feed some news to the site ... things
> happening in the community, new releases of packages, interesting
> stuff, you name it, integrating Tcl-URL of course, all that kind of
> stuff.
Will it be RSS based?
BTW, what server is running on tcl.tk?
--
Eckhard
Jeff Hobbs
tclhttpd of course ;)
pal...@yahoo.com
> The blue feather was created by David Zolli (kroc) and has a free use
> license. We can dig up some gimp source files if you are interested
> in a different format.
PNG is fine. Just wanted to make sure it has a free use license.
> Mark Roseman actually assisted with the newwww.tcl.tklook and I
> think it is pretty good. Maybe not as "slick" as Ruby's, but remember
> that Ruby really exists for Rails, and those are all web apps. I
> would thus expect a higher level of web expertise per programmer than
> Tcl's industry background.
>
I didn't mean to imply www.tcl.tk was ugly by any means! But it is
more functional (not that that's a bad thing!) than attractive for
newcomers. As an aside, I find www.tkdocs.com much more pleasing
visually. It could just be something as simple as the use of
whitespace and the graphics/image on each page.
> > Anyways, back to my original question - does a "modern" Tcl logo
> > exist?
>
> New logo ideas accepted ...
>
> Jeff
OK, you asked for it! I'll cobble together some ideas over the
weekend. If nothing else, the logos should provide a good laugh! As
Thorsten said, the new blue feather as an image looks fine. My issue
with it is that for someone not familiar with Tcl, the association
with "tickle" is not obvious and the logo itself is not sufficiently
distinctive (like, say, Tux) to stand on its own.
/Ashok (who can't believe he's commenting on graphics and branding)
pal...@yahoo.com
> Speaking of TWAPI, awhile back Jeff asked if you'd be interested in
> enhancing the clipboard command in the Windows version of Tk to handle
> binary data ... was that something you might still be interested in
> doing or maybe already have done?
> Thanks!
As I'd replied at the time, I didn't think TWAPI did much more than
what Tk does. See http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.tcl/msg/b10aa6cec6adcae2.
That's where things stand. I didn't hear anything more. (I've to also
admit I haven't programmed for a living in more than a decade now so
am nervous about poking around in the Tcl core!)
/Ashok
USCode
Pat Thoyts
I think the frog is great. Amphibians rule!
--
Pat Thoyts http://www.patthoyts.tk/
To reply, rot13 the return address or read the X-Address header.
PGP fingerprint 2C 6E 98 07 2C 59 C8 97 10 CE 11 E6 04 E0 B9 DD
pal...@yahoo.com
"efforts" towards new ideas for logos. All comments appreciated. Even
better if folks come up with their own logo ideas, I'll post them
there as well.
/Ashok
On May 9, 11:47 pm, Jeff Hobbs <jeff.ho...@gmail.com> wrote:
Torsten Berg
> "efforts" towards new ideas for logos. All comments appreciated.
I like the last (with "paper" behind the feather) best. The other are
too "complicated" IMO. The visual message of a logo should be clear
and simple. The feather (or the frog, for that matter) meet that
requiremet. The only thing, that can be done for the better here, is
some kind of "frame" or background to make the logo stand out better
in print or with respect to surrounding type or other pictures. The
frame (like in your last example) does this. It gives the eye some
visual guidelines when moving on a (web)page.
Many logos for software have more distinctive color, are more
striking. So the blue shades could need some more tweeking. This will
make the logo easier to distinguish and recognize, especially on
monitors in difficult light conditions.
But don't let my views here prevent you from further proposals! I just
wanted to share my principal view on a good logo.
Torsten
dave.j...@googlemail.com
I must confess that to me it has always been TCL rather than tickle,
and any feathers have always been on an arrow rather than in an
inkpot. Sometimes said arrow has been embedded in my foot...
Dave
EL
> As threatened earlier, http://tcl-logos.magicsplat.com now contains my
> "efforts" towards new ideas for logos. All comments appreciated. Even
> better if folks come up with their own logo ideas, I'll post them
> there as well.
I like the second one (original) most. As Torsten mentioned I also think
that a logo must be as simple (and eyecatchy) as possible - and the
other ones are too complicated. I even like the blue color...
On the other hand I think also that it would be good if the "official"
logo is in alignment with the one that ActiveState uses, because it
might create some confusion when logos are not used consequently.
That said I find the frog not too bad either.
--
Eckhard
Torsten Berg
> On the other hand I think also that it would be good if the "official"
> logo is in alignment with the one that ActiveState uses, because it
> might create some confusion when logos are not used consequently.
Which is perhaps the actual problem!
There is no "official" logo, or is there? The Tk distribution comes
with one set (library/images/): a blue feather on red background and
the name "tcl ... tk" on it and a "tcl ... powered" variant. There's
also the tai-ku logo (not bad either). The Wiki and www.tcl.tk have
the blue feather by David Zolli and discussed here. The Activestate
distribution uses the frog.
The only "institution" to decide for an official logo is perhaps the
TCT using a TIP process, no?
I really would like to see the feather as THE logo for Tcl/Tk, because
a feather is light, you can use for scripting, it comes in many many
incarnations (each bird has its own), and it tickles. All things that
can be said about Tcl also abstracting the idea behind a feather and
its uses in human culture (feathers are usually needed as decoration
and as such are something valuable, just like our beloved Tcl
language).
Torsten
Torsten Berg
Torsten
Sean Woods
> By the way, there is also:http://wiki.tcl.tk/854
>
> Torsten
And remember folks, there is no Secret Tcl Illuminati.
Sean Woods
> Not complaining, but just feeling some angst about Tcl. It's like
> having Cinderella for a daughter - she's beautiful and talented but
> dresses so ugly and talks so little, no prince will give her a second
> look.
>
Tcl us more like that obscure brand of golf club that the pros use.
Sometimes you get to know it because you inherit a set. Other times
you find it at a yard sale. The styling is not modern, yet despite
their age, you can still whack the ball. They may be harder to shoot
with, but they go the distance and they hold up over time. And while
your casual golfer looks at you funny, any seasoned pro will give you
a knowing wink.
frederi...@free.fr
> Tcl us more like that obscure brand of golf club that the pros use.
> Sometimes you get to know it because you inherit a set. Other times
> you find it at a yard sale. The styling is not modern, yet despite
> their age, you can still whack the ball. They may be harder to shoot
> with, but they go the distance and they hold up over time. And while
> your casual golfer looks at you funny, any seasoned pro will give you
> a knowing wink.
Is Tcl the IBM Model M keyboard of languages?
Kroc
> On May 9, 11:47 pm, Jeff Hobbs <jeff.ho...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The blue feather was created by David Zolli (kroc) and has a free use
> > license. We can dig up some gimp source files if you are interested
> > in a different format.
>
> PNG is fine. Just wanted to make sure it has a free use license.
I confirm this logo is has a free use license.
You can grab "sources" here: http://www.kroc.tk/index.php?z=4 and
there: http://www.kroc.tk/index.php?z=2
FYI: these logos are also used by eTcl.
--
David Zolli.
walto...@gmail.com
> As threatened earlier,http://tcl-logos.magicsplat.comnow contains my
> "efforts" towards new ideas for logos. All comments appreciated. Even
> better if folks come up with their own logo ideas, I'll post them
> there as well.
>
> /Ashok
I like the last one the best, the feather on papyrus. I like it
better than the current feather logo at tcl.tk.
Tcl also needs a mascot. Some type of bird perhaps; a soaring, light,
elegant bird.
frederi...@free.fr
> Tcl also needs a mascot. Some type of bird perhaps; a soaring, light,
> elegant bird.
I agree. I've been thinking about that for some time, and I think that
the colibri (AKA violet-ear) would make a great mascot. The colibri is
a kind of hummingbird that lives in Latin America. It's feathered
(obviously), colorful, light, small, and very steady like all
hummingbirds (they are capable of stationary flight when feeding from
flowers). Best of all, it's cute ^-^ . And the name "colibri" sounds
good IMHO.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colibri
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hummingbird
The Nazca had a crunch on colibris apparently:
Colin Macleod
Command Language / TOOL Kit, shouldn't it be something involving
hammer / screwdriver / spanner or suchlike ?
Colin.
Donal K. Fellows
> I agree. I've been thinking about that for some time, and I think that
> the colibri (AKA violet-ear) would make a great mascot.
As long as it doesn't get mixed up with other projects with avine
mascots, that's great. (Remember when doing mascots, the aim is a plush
toy... :-))
Donal.
frederi...@free.fr
<donal.k.fell...@manchester.ac.uk> wrote:
After a little googling, I've found that the Lightweight Telephony
project (LTP) uses a hummingbird as a mascot:
http://lightweighttelephony.org/identity.html
I don't think it's a problem for us, though, since Tcl is not in the
same industry sector. Besides, similarities between Apache's and Tcl's
feathered logo haven't caused any problem AFAIK.
LTP's hummingbird is all pink and if we choose a distinctive color
(blue seems to be the trend in Tcl identity), then things should be
fine.
We also have to find a catchy name. For example, a Spanish or Ohlone
surname. The Ohlone are the indigenous people around San Francisco,
and have a lot of legends involving hummingbirds. Berkeley, where Tcl
was created, is roughly situated in the Ohlone Chochenyo area.
Now if someone with graphical skills could draw a quick sketch...
pal...@yahoo.com
Either they're happy with the current (which would be a good sign) or
it's a repeated discussion that they're tired of!
/Ashok
On May 9, 9:34 pm, EL <eckhardnos...@gmx.de> wrote:
> palm...@yahoo.com schrieb:
EL
> I guess this whole logo business seems a non-issue to most Tcl'ers.
> Either they're happy with the current (which would be a good sign) or
> it's a repeated discussion that they're tired of!
IMO, marketing is /very/ important.
But I am just using Tcl, so I am not in the position to create logos or
any other such stuff.
I think that this should be done by folks at a company who earn money by
selling Tcl tools and services (<hint>AS</hint>). They would directly
benefit from such activities.
Another option would be the TCT itself, if they were interested in this
kind of work.
BTW, I like the idea with the colibri ;-).
--
Eckhard
Donal K. Fellows
> IMO, marketing is /very/ important.
Agreed.
> But I am just using Tcl, so I am not in the position to create logos or
> any other such stuff.
Just because I can write code and even (in a pinch) marketdroidese, it
does not mean that I have *any* ability at creating logos or mascots
or stuff like that. I can draw a technical diagram, but I really suck
at graphic art. Have done for decades. I know that many (all?) of the
other people on the TCT are similarly either unwilling or unable to do
a lot of this stuff either. You can say it is important, and we'll
agree, but sometimes we can't fix everything ourselves. We have to
rely on the community as a whole stepping up to the plate!
> I think that this should be done by folks at a company who earn money by
> selling Tcl tools and services (<hint>AS</hint>). They would directly
> benefit from such activities.
> Another option would be the TCT itself, if they were interested in this
> kind of work.
What we, the TCT, can do is adopt the best suggestion from the
community. But make those suggestions! (As I understand it, AS are
more focussed on the branding of their products, including those that
are Tcl-based, and on getting a consistent look across the whole of
that set.) The main branding image for years now has been the feather
developed for Scriptics, downloadable in its original form from:
http://tktoolkit.cvs.sourceforge.net/*checkout*/tktoolkit/tk/library/images/logo.eps?revision=1.2
(It should also be a part of all Tk distributions, if you know where
to look.) Maybe it is time to consider a rebrand?
> BTW, I like the idea with the colibri ;-).
Agreed again, especially as it has some continuity with the feather.
I'd like to see a sample.
Donal.
EL
> Just because I can write code and even (in a pinch) marketdroidese, it
> does not mean that I have *any* ability at creating logos or mascots
> or stuff like that. I can draw a technical diagram, but I really suck
> at graphic art.
That holds true for me as well... although when I was younger I loved to
do graphics art and painting :-). I always want to renew this skill, but
there is always not enough time.
> but sometimes we can't fix everything ourselves. We have to
> rely on the community as a whole stepping up to the plate!
In the company where I work we have a whole department doing marketing
and branding. Nobody can be good at every task or has time for everything...
Did you consider to elect somebody into the TCT who does primarily this
kind of work?
>> BTW, I like the idea with the colibri ;-).
>
> Agreed again, especially as it has some continuity with the feather.
> I'd like to see a sample.
How about a contest, with the possibility to win something?
--
Eckhard
Donal K. Fellows
> Did you consider to elect somebody into the TCT who does primarily this
> kind of work?
We'll want to see how the person with marketing responsibility does
first, how good they are at balancing conflicting requirements from
different parts of the community. After all, you don't have to be on
the TCT to write code for Tcl either.
Donal.
jgodfrey
> Not complaining, but just feeling some angst about Tcl. It's like
> having Cinderella for a daughter - she's beautiful and talented but
> dresses so ugly and talks so little, no prince will give her a second
> look.
I'd *love* to see Tcl properly branded, but I think something as
important as a new logo design needs to be left to the professionals.
Unless there's some real untapped branding talent floating around here
somewhere, I don't think we'll be doing Tcl any favors by doing this
ourselves.
Obviously, professional logo designs cost money. Would it be possible
to...
- Select a professional to work with
- Determine an approximate price for the work
- Somehow "collect" from the community to cover the work (paypal
donations?)
- Get the work done
- Reap the benefits from our shiny, modern, and snazzy new logo
Also, I wonder if we might find someone willing to give a project like
Tcl a break on price?
As an example... While I know nothing about the following company,
their work and client list seems to speak for itself...
Is there any community interest in such an effort?
Jeff
EL
> Is there any community interest in such an effort?
From my side absolutely. But I don't think that it necessarily /must/
be done by a professional...
I would propose to do a contest with the "win an iPod nano" thing, to
collect good logo/mascot drawings. This means we do an announcement that
everybody (not necessarily from the Tcl community) can submit a picture
with a logo and/or mascot (the colibri, or no?). The best one is elected
and the creator wins the iPod.
If this is done properly and the announcement reaches /many/ people, it
has also the side effect of advertising Tcl itself. The iPod is about
200 bucks... it should be possible to collect this by donations.
Any thoughts?
--
Eckhard