future support for rivet?
jake
from Google if 2.0 support is planned or not. Tcl itself seems here to
stay, so cgi's always an alternative in the distant future, but it
would be nice if the Rivet team (or the Apache community) saw Rivet as
a semi-permanent fixture in future web development. Does anyone have
an informed guess as to whether this is true?
- Jake
David N. Welton
> I see that Rivet will currently only work in Apache 1.3.
Which is not really a problem if you use Linux/Unix of some kind, which
you ought to be doing anyway:-)
> I can't tell
> from Google if 2.0 support is planned or not. Tcl itself seems here to
> stay, so cgi's always an alternative in the distant future, but it
> would be nice if the Rivet team (or the Apache community) saw Rivet as
> a semi-permanent fixture in future web development. Does anyone have
> an informed guess as to whether this is true?
I plan to continue support for Rivet in the future, but realistically,
it hasn't captured that large a share of the market, which makes it in
turn difficult for other people to use ("Rivet, what's that?! Let's use
PHP!"). The negative side of "network effects", let's say.
I use it quite happily, and use it for clients where possible, so I have
a fair amount invested in it. That said, doing the port to 2.0 is a
fair bit of work to get right, and I don't have a lot of time for it, so
it will probably happen when 1) someone else wants to scratch that itch,
like one of the other members of the Rivet team, or 2) there is some
business justification for me to do it (I really need it for a client,
someone out of the blue pays for it, etc...).
So let's say it's well supported - we fix bugs quickly and respond
promptly to questions, both here and on the rivet-dev list. On the
other hand, as things stand now it won't get a huge amount of
development time invested in new things unless other people step forward
and get involved (I'm *very* willing to help and facilitate that!).
Ciao,
--
David N. Welton
- http://www.dedasys.com/davidw/
Apache, Linux, Tcl Consulting
- http://www.dedasys.com/
davidh...@simplifiedlogic.com
I think that it is an incredible conbination of technology (e.g. Apache
and Tcl) - it is just missing a good commercial story and even better
examples of how this works.
We have been wanting to use this for some time (to minimize delays due
to CGI architechture on start up for delivering content) - I personally
think it will be a 2x performance increase to use Rivet vs CGI (my on
untested opion).
BUT - if the lead developer for this is planning on throwing in the
towel, the commercial story will never get told. "php" pertty much
gets the default nod due to it's popularity and integration with
packages like Macromedia Dreamweaver and others.
If Rivet were combined with XMLRPC/SOAP (and as a way to glue
dissimilar applications and processes together) and were marketed more
as an application framework tool than trying to complete with "hello
world" web pages that everyone else can do right out of the box, I
think it would get a tremendious amount of street credibility. It
would also not hurt to build an interface into web development
environments like Dreamweaver and nativly wihtin ActiveState's tools to
promote the capability.
Just some suggestions - of course this means more not less work - but
the potential is there....
I would really hate to see this go by the way side...
Dave
David N. Welton
> God, please don't give up on this package.
No one every said anything about "giving up". Just not "investing
significant amounts of unpaid time". I got married a few months ago...
it cuts down on my hacking time:-)
> I think that it is an incredible conbination of technology (e.g. Apache
> and Tcl) - it is just missing a good commercial story and even better
> examples of how this works.
>
> We have been wanting to use this for some time (to minimize delays due
> to CGI architechture on start up for delivering content) - I personally
> think it will be a 2x performance increase to use Rivet vs CGI (my on
> untested opion).
>
> BUT - if the lead developer for this is planning on throwing in the
> towel, the commercial story will never get told. "php" pertty much
> gets the default nod due to it's popularity and integration with
> packages like Macromedia Dreamweaver and others.
PHP has surpassed total Tcl usage, not just on the web. People don't
talk about Tcl anymore.
I helped write it, though, and I'm going to keep maintaining it as long
as I use it myself, so don't go tossing around phrases like "giving up".
> If Rivet were combined with XMLRPC/SOAP (and as a way to glue
> dissimilar applications and processes together) and were marketed more
> as an application framework tool than trying to complete with "hello
> world" web pages that everyone else can do right out of the box, I
> think it would get a tremendious amount of street credibility. It
> would also not hurt to build an interface into web development
> environments like Dreamweaver and nativly wihtin ActiveState's tools to
> promote the capability.
People who are interested in application framework kinds of things are
flocking to Ruby on Rails. Ruby is cool, Tcl isn't. The more people
that flock, the more code they write... and so on and so forth.
davidh...@simplifiedlogic.com
Dave
Helmut Giese
<dav...@dedasys.com> wrote:
>No one every said anything about "giving up". Just not "investing
>significant amounts of unpaid time". I got married a few months ago...
>it cuts down on my hacking time:-)
My best wishes to both of you.
Hm, the following is absolutely, completely OT (but then, we are on
clt and usually this is tolerated): There is one book which I would
advise /any/ couple to read. It's written by an Australian couple and
is titled something like 'Men are different, women too' with a
sub-title something like 'Why women can't park their cars and men are
unable to listen' - these are re-translations from German so they will
be inexact. I can look up the exact title at home - don't have it at
the office :)
When I read this book some years ago it, was a real eye-opener. If it
had existed 20 or so years earlier (and if I had read it then) it
would have saved me a lot of grief. Ok, I'm (at least) one generation
ahead of you, so of course your background will be dramatically
different, which means that YMMV enormously.
But then, reading a book is not that much of an investment, and I
truly believe it has the potential of enhancing the understanding
between a man and a woman - which goes a long way towards helping to
keep a relation stable and intact.
Ok, I'll shut up now. It's just that I told my son approximately the
same thing just a few days ago, so it was still on my mind.
Best regards and again my best wishes
Helmut Giese
MH
David N. Welton <dav...@dedasys.com> wrote:
[cut]
>No one every said anything about "giving up". Just not "investing
>significant amounts of unpaid time". I got married a few months ago...
>it cuts down on my hacking time:-)
[cut]
Congrats! I tied the knot just over a year ago.
>People who are interested in application framework kinds of things are
>flocking to Ruby on Rails. Ruby is cool, Tcl isn't. The more people
>that flock, the more code they write... and so on and so forth.
I think this also illustrates part of the computing experience: the older
you get, the less time you have to "hack", hence you stick with what you
know.
Young kids (yikes - at 34, I'm NOT one of those anymore) like to try new
things, especially things their predecessors DIDN'T do. Partly peer
pressure, partly because some things ARE getting better.
TCL is SO MUCH BETTER than, say, SpartaDOS's scripting language (to throw in
a real oldie :-). I'm very happy with it. But, I don't know that I'd want to
use it for web development.
I'm not crazy about perl, although I've hacked it (bugzilla customizations).
Have never tried python or ruby. Don't have a need at the moment, and the
desire to spend time with my wife tends to override the desire to learn
python/ruby.
Mattias
MH
Helmut Giese <hgi...@ratiosoft.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 20:09:07 GMT, "David N. Welton"
><dav...@dedasys.com> wrote:
>
>>No one every said anything about "giving up". Just not "investing
>>significant amounts of unpaid time". I got married a few months ago...
>>it cuts down on my hacking time:-)
>My best wishes to both of you.
>
>Hm, the following is absolutely, completely OT (but then, we are on
>clt and usually this is tolerated): There is one book which I would
>advise /any/ couple to read. It's written by an Australian couple and
>is titled something like 'Men are different, women too' with a
>sub-title something like 'Why women can't park their cars and men are
>unable to listen' - these are re-translations from German so they will
>be inexact. I can look up the exact title at home - don't have it at
>the office :)
Is the book a re-translation from German, or the titles?
Mattias
Bruce Hartweg
David N. Welton wrote:
>
>
> No one every said anything about "giving up". Just not "investing
> significant amounts of unpaid time". I got married a few months ago...
> it cuts down on my hacking time:-)
>
Congrats David!
Bruce
David N. Welton
>>People who are interested in application framework kinds of things are
>>flocking to Ruby on Rails. Ruby is cool, Tcl isn't. The more people
>>that flock, the more code they write... and so on and so forth.
>
>
> I think this also illustrates part of the computing experience: the older
> you get, the less time you have to "hack", hence you stick with what you
> know.
>
> Young kids (yikes - at 34, I'm NOT one of those anymore) like to try new
> things, especially things their predecessors DIDN'T do. Partly peer
> pressure, partly because some things ARE getting better.
Yep. Without that influx, things get stale.
> TCL is SO MUCH BETTER than, say, SpartaDOS's scripting language (to throw in
> a real oldie :-). I'm very happy with it. But, I don't know that I'd want to
> use it for web development.
Tcl is perfect for web development, I think. The web is all about
strings, and so is Tcl. Tcl is easy for people to learn, so even people
who aren't programmers can use it as a template language. Being able to
write your own control structures and macro like commands lets you
create things that other people use as very high level tools. I'm
pretty convinced that Tcl or something like it is The Right Thing for
the web.
> I'm not crazy about perl, although I've hacked it (bugzilla customizations).
> Have never tried python or ruby. Don't have a need at the moment, and the
> desire to spend time with my wife tends to override the desire to learn
> python/ruby.
They're both pretty good languages, all things considered.
Helmut Giese
mghe...@ampere.uwaterloo.ca.uwaterloo.ca (MH) wrote:
>Is the book a re-translation from German, or the titles?
The book is written by Allan & Barbara Pease. The original title is
"Why men don't listen and woman can't read maps" and the German title
is "Warum Männer nicht zuhören und Frauen schlecht einparken".
It's fun to read.
Best regards
Helmut Giese
MH
paulo....@gmail.com
davidh...@simplifiedlogic.com wrote:
> God, please don't give up on this package.
>
> I think that it is an incredible conbination of technology (e.g. Apache
> and Tcl) - it is just missing a good commercial story and even better
> examples of how this works.
>
It's not the only one. Back in the good old days of .com business I
used to work for a company that developed an application server based
on Apache/Tcl.
But we used it for our own projects and contractor work as well.
I can't say much about it because I'm not allowed to. But I can say
that our platform used Apache with Tcl for it's programming language.
All web pages were templated in XML and we even had something like an
object model for database tables.
But that's all history now and with tools like .Net/Java, Python/Ruby,
PHP I think that platform wouldn't have survived anyway.
Cheers,
Paulo