Respect and Disappointment
Curt Hibbs
until I was sure I keep it up, but DHH posted a entry to his blog that I
feel compelled to comment on.
You can read about it on my blog:
http://www.bloglines.com/blog/CurtHibbs
Curt
Florian Gross
> You can read about it on my blog:
>
> http://www.bloglines.com/blog/CurtHibbs
Please post Ruby stuff to
http://www.artima.com/buzz/community.jsp?forum=123 as well -- it
aggregates most Ruby weblogs out there which is quite nice.
Thank you!
Curt Hibbs
Thanks... its done! I just added my blog to the Ruby Buzz aggregation (I
already subscribe to this, myself... just forgot about adding myself
to it).
Curt Hibbs
> all bloglines RSS feeds...
Yeah, they don't make it easy to find the RSS URL. It is:
http://www.bloglines.com/blog/CurtHibbs/rss
I'm going to cc this to ruby-talk in case other's are having the same
problem.
I really think I'm going to switch to another provider, because I want
people to be able to leave comments. I'm thinking about trying Google's
blogger.
Does anyone have any suggestions for a *free* weblog provider. I've also
thought about setting up Typo on my server, but I have a fairly slow
uplink bandwidth and I don't really want to clog that up.
Thanks,
Curt
Berger, Daniel
> From: Curt Hibbs [mailto:cu...@hibbs.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 12:06 PM
> To: ruby-talk ML; drb...@segment7.net
> Subject: [OT} Need Blog Provider [was Re: Respect and Disappointment]
<snip>
> Does anyone have any suggestions for a *free* weblog
> provider. I've also
> thought about setting up Typo on my server, but I have a fairly slow
> uplink bandwidth and I don't really want to clog that up.
>
> Thanks,
> Curt
LiveJournal? Blogger.com?
Dan
vruz
> thought about setting up Typo on my server, but I have a fairly slow
> uplink bandwidth and I don't really want to clog that up.
Typo is more like a full-blown (and complex) content management system
more appropriate for maybe an online publication, which seems to be a
different business than a blog.
On the other hand, the other option you suggest about using Blogger
(that's the name of the original 'blog' which then Google acquired)
may be too simple if you plan going beyond the traditional personal
blog. Blogger is probably best suited for personal blogs of an
individual or small group of friends.
If it's a ruby-related blog (as I assume it must probably be) and
given the number of fans of your work existing in the rubysphere I
feel confident you will probably be offered plenty of bandwidth and
disk space to run a blog written in Ruby.
(which is good for extensibility and scalability, I've heard :-)
Keep up with the good work !
cheers,
vruz
Robert McGovern
>
> Dan
I'd second LiveJournal, I've been using it for 3 years now and its a
good service and either free or paid.
It supports comments and RSS feeds and can be used to follow other
peoples feeds as if they were "friends".
Rob
Matthias Luedtke
>>Does anyone have any suggestions for a *free* weblog provider. I've also
>>thought about setting up Typo on my server, but I have a fairly slow
>>uplink bandwidth and I don't really want to clog that up.
>
>
> Typo is more like a full-blown (and complex) content management system
> more appropriate for maybe an online publication, which seems to be a
> different business than a blog.
I assume Curt is rather thinking of http://blog.leetsoft.com .
Kind regards,
Matthias
vruz
when you said 'Typo' I though you were talking about Typo3
(http://www.typo3.com)
which is a popular CMS (written in php)
Robby Russell
yeah, the other Typo. :-)
I use it for my rails stuff: http://www.robbyonrails.com/
--
/***************************************
* Robby Russell | Owner.Developer.Geek
* PLANET ARGON | www.planetargon.com
* Portland, OR | ro...@planetargon.com
* 503.351.4730 | blog.planetargon.com
* PHP, Ruby, and PostgreSQL Development
* http://www.robbyonrails.com/
****************************************/
Josef Pospisil
cause you don't have comments and David stop comments of this story,
I'll put my opinion here, even if everybody has this thread in ignored.
I fully agree with David and reaction like he is lame, unprofesional
and so are blind in my eyes. It was just his personal view (as I feel
it, but I'm not native speaker as you can see around, so maybe I've
missed something), and maybe reaction like this speaks more about
people writting it (and many of them are authorities for me). I think
that not so many people in our little software world are bigger
proffesinals and totaly seeing forward people like David is. We now
have (as I can see it) one of the best domain specific language for
free, do you think it should happen if David was using wintel? I'dont.
And for funding. I'm living in Czech Republic, and macs are sooo
expensive here (30pc more than in states) and wages are.... guess, but
year ago I've managed to get 12" PB from USA through one friend (funny
she was in Vegas on IBM yearly conference). It costs me half year work
in my university job, but I'm still feeling that it worth every penny
and I get my money back, from work I've done on it. Surely I could do
it on my freebsd machine too, but ... not with such leisure and
happiness. And with no flame, it's just like changing the way you work
on computer (butler, witch, growl ..), I feel like my computer is
working for me (same with ruby and rails), not that I'm working for
him. I think, that if I didn't buy one I never know about Rails, cause
I didn't have time to explore it.
So it's my really long, bad written, late.... and so comment. Sorry for
disturbing, it was just on my mind and I had to say. Even if I'm wrong.
See ya in Prague one day :-). Do you know that czech republic has the
most advanced net (km/person) of railroads in the world?
--
Ing. Josef Pospisil
Richard Dale
I mainly use LinuxPPC on Macs. How many DHH brownie points do I score for
that?
I prefer using KDE 3.4 over Mac OS X for program development, and think the
Qt/KDE application framework is as good as Cocoa, even though I've spent 10
years as a professional NeXT/Objective-C programmer.
-- Richard
Bill Atkins
'best domain specific language for free') wouldn't exist if David used
Wintel? Please describe how these two concepts are related.
Curt Hibbs has a good point, and I think he was completely
professional about it. David's post _was_ pretty arrogant. I
personally don't like OS X. I don't like the idea of having to run my
OS only on proprietary hardware. Nor do I like the Apple (and Gems)
method of giving applications separate directories. And to be honest,
I'm not all that impressed with OS X's interface, as crazy as that
might sound. I'm not going to "get over it" and switch. I've used OS
X computers and they're not for me. I'm sure others have had similar
experiences. And I'm sure others have used OS X and loved it. Good
for them.
The fact is, you pick the environment you're most productive in and
you leave it at that. Curt Hibbs and I (and whoever else) have a
right to be bothered by the article. Paul Graham says a lot of
things; his opinion about what "the best hackers" use isn't really a
solid reason for me to consider shelling out a few thousand dollars
for what, to me, is not an ideal system. David's post suggested that
everyone not using a Mac is being intentionally stubborn or stupid -
that they were too dumb to see that they should be moving to the Mac.
Curt Hibbs had a right to be frustrated, and I'm glad he brought it
up.
Bill Atkins
P.S. I would have posted this comment on LoudThinking, but the
comments have been closed there.
--
$stdout.sync = true
"Just another Ruby hacker.".each_byte do |b|
('a'..'z').step do|c|print c+"\b";sleep 0.007 end;print b.chr
end; print "\n"
Jim Burton
> Ridiculous. You're saying Rails (I'm assuming that's what you mean by
> 'best domain specific language for free') wouldn't exist if David used
> Wintel? Please describe how these two concepts are related.
>
> Curt Hibbs has a good point, and I think he was completely
> professional about it. David's post _was_ pretty arrogant. I
> personally don't like OS X. I don't like the idea of having to run my
> OS only on proprietary hardware. Nor do I like the Apple (and Gems)
> method of giving applications separate directories. And to be honest,
> I'm not all that impressed with OS X's interface, as crazy as that
> might sound. I'm not going to "get over it" and switch.
[snip]
+1. Personally I have a stronger bias towards free software than to
slick design which is why I use a free OS - I could install that OS on
a mac but that would be like the windows tax * 5.
Either a very childish attitude or trolling.
George Moschovitis
> slick design which is why I use a free OS - I could install that OS on
> a mac but that would be like the windows tax * 5.
Even better, you could install your free OS on a super-sexy Sony VAIO
laptop (check out Sony VAIO VGN-FS115M). Gnome 2.10 looks slick too.
George.
PS: however, I plan to buy a Mac when OSX Tiger gets released.
Glenn Smith
But he reformatted it and now runs Linux on it (unsurprisingly!).
--
All the best
Glenn
Aylesbury, UK
Rob .
> +1. Personally I have a stronger bias towards free software
+1. I believe supporting free software is in the interests of our
political, cultural and social freedom. I prefer my software "free"
(as in freedom), my applications "cross-platform" and my hardware
"value for money". The Mac fails my requirements on all accounts.
Currently at home I'm running Ubuntu Linux on a 12'' Uniwill 223ii
laptop; both look great and perform well. An equivalent PowerBook
would have been considerably more expensive; I paid US$1639 including
shipping for the barebones laptop plus 2.0Ghz Centrino, 1x1GB memory,
60GB 7200rpm HD, 24xDVD/CD+RW and Intel pro 2200 wifi. I installed the
CPU and Ubuntu myself, both easy installs for the most part.
At work Cygwin on Windows let's me pretend I'm on a unix box, while
Mozilla, Open Office, IntelliJ Idea and jEdit all look the same on any
platform. So the underlying operating system is usually transparent to
me for the type of hacking I do.
Rob
Uniwill 223ii - http://uniwill.com/products/mobility/223ii0/223ii0.php
Ubuntu - http://ubuntu.com/
Lopy
Well, I hate *nix. *nix is a virus that unfortunately will be here for
years to come. What's worse, the so called "hackers" really like that
"everything is a file" mantra. Eh... Unfortunately there isn't really
any good alternative since NT is based on very similar principals - very
little changes. We need a good alternative to this obsolete garbage.
Genera was(is) cool but it's almost dead.
Having to use Ruby/Lisp/Smalltalk on *nix makes me sick :S Oh well, back
to work(*nix!).
Josef Pospisil
for me to write my meanings in english, with the right accent on words.
And I really didn't want to write that people that are using windows
are worse hackers or programers or whatever. I just wanted to say, that
David can have his own opinion on it and that I'm sharing it.
About rails on wintel and David, I just understood (and maybe again I
get it wrong) that piece of his pasion to write it is based on Mac OS
X. That Apple with its "think different" realy makes you think
different.
So enough is enough, I just wanted to say that I understand what David
said (even my wrong way, how it looks), and don't think he was so
arrogant how everybody wrote.
But again, I'm not native speaker so my words could look dumb, and I
can't help.
Sorry Jim, George and others if it looked like I'm attacking your
attitude.
--
Ing. Josef Pospisil
Francis Hwang
I'm a self-professed Mac snob, myself: I'm typing this on a Powerbook
12", and a few weeks ago I posted a job description that included the
phrase "Apple and Unix snobs highly encouraged to apply." I've never
spent my own money on a computer that wasn't made by Apple, and I've
got an iPod that follows me everywhere I go. Like Paul Graham, I have
been pleased to note that many of the techie events I go to have a high
Powerbook quotient. I find the Linux desktop interface sort of clunky,
and the idea of wrestling with system config issues in Linux doesn't
seem like it's worth the time. And personally, I find the whole design
of the Wintel platform vaguely insulting.
But:
+ To say that you have "run all but dry of understanding for
programmers that willfully pick Windows as their platform of choice" to
me seems to imply a complete disinterest in understanding how other
people make such decisions in the first place. For one thing, I know
plenty of people who have never made the switch out of
cost-consciousness, and I live in New York, not a very cost-conscious
place to begin with.
+ Apple's legal moves, of late, have not been very accepting of open
principles, and those moves should give its supporters pause. There
have been lots of lawsuits and cease-and-desist orders regarding trade
secrets, iTunes hacking, etc., and of course I take this all a bit
personally, considering that Apple shut down my own iPod parody auction
last December on eBay. (I was able to call their bluff and sell it on
my own site; see http://fhwang.net/art/uiuvnse/ for the whole story.)
+ Not every super l33t h4x0r is giving Apple love these days anyway. In
fact, Tim Bray just posted an interesting rant to his blog:
http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2005/03/29/Switch . Now, DHH is
a smart guy, but if we're going to start making techie appeals to
authority, I think inventing XML trumps inventing Rails.
In a nutshell: There is no such thing as a self-evidently perfect
platform. Until there is, I'm certainly not willing to judge a
programmer by such a silly thing as what platform he uses. In fact, in
my recent job interviews the question never comes up. There are lots of
other, less ham-handed ways to find if a programmer is the match for
your company ... For me, they're questions like: How familiar are they
with the values of simplicity and power embodied in Ruby? How familiar
are they with the principles and ideas that might be gleaned out of
agile methodologies, design patterns, and refactoring? Do they have
cool shoes?
( Just kidding about that last question. Sort of. )
Francis Hwang
http://fhwang.net/
Nikolai Weibull
> Paul Graham says a lot of things; his opinion about what "the best
> hackers" use isn't really a solid reason for me to consider shelling
> out a few thousand dollars for what, to me, is not an ideal system.
Good point. However, what I think Paul is mainly talking about are
the Apple laptops, not necessarily Macintoshes in general. When it
comes to choosing a laptop, your basically bound to whatever is
available, as there is no easy way of building one yourself. Then, as
the market is today, you have a choice. You choose to go with something
that is either covered with Intel(R) Inside(TM) and a Microsoft(R)
Windows(TM) Pre-installed stickers or a big outline of an apple.
I think DHH simply phrased his blog-entry a bit slopily, or perhaps
didn't actually manage to say what he was intending to say, that about
choosing your tools well. Let's face it, discussing platforms is so
passe. Hell, Paul Graham has said so repeatedly [1], reasoning that in
the future the only platform will be the Web and it won't matter what
hardware you're using or what operating system you've installed on it.
Listen, what really matters isn't fading menus, zooming windows,
sparkling icons. What really matters, and this is the point DHH was
trying to make, are the tools that use, are contained in, and
are activated by clicking on them. I, for example, am ten times as
productive now as I ever was when I was using Windows. When I was using
Windows, I never found a set of tools that suited my style of work.
When I discovered Linux, I found screen, vim, mutt, and zsh, which all
fit my needs very well. I was still bound to a crappy windowing
environment, but I learned to live with it and later improved it with
tools like ratpoison and a 256-color xterm.
DHH seems to like Mac OS X and the tools that it provides him with. Who
can argue with that? I am really happy with the tools that I have found
over the years using Linux. Who can argue with that? Still, the reason
I was able to do that was that I was allowed to experiment with
different operating systems and different sets of tools. No one decried
that I must use any given system with any given set. I hope that no one
else will be forced into using something that they don't want to use.
Mankind has one inherent freedom: to choose to live the way they want,
doing what they want, and with whoever they wish to do it with. All the
other freedoms that we bestow upon ourselves follow [2].
Please remember that before you tell someone else what to do or what to
think,
nikolai
P.S.
The arguments made in this post aren't directed at anyone in particular;
let's not become haters.
D.S.
[1] Yet he starts blabbing about Mac OS X being 1337, which is kind of
strange.
[2] Well, most people have freedom of speech, for example. Some,
though, aren't allowed to express their love for another human
being the way they want to do it. That's terrible.
--
::: name: Nikolai Weibull :: aliases: pcp / lone-star / aka :::
::: born: Chicago, IL USA :: loc atm: Gothenburg, Sweden :::
::: page: minimalistic.org :: fun atm: gf,lps,ruby,lisp,war3 :::
main(){printf(&linux["\021%six\012\0"],(linux)["have"]+"fun"-97);}
Nikolai Weibull
> Well, I hate *nix. *nix is a virus that unfortunately will be here for
> years to come. What's worse, the so called "hackers" really like that
> "everything is a file" mantra. Eh... Unfortunately there isn't really
> any good alternative since NT is based on very similar principals -
> very little changes. We need a good alternative to this obsolete
> garbage. Genera was(is) cool but it's almost dead. Having to use
> Ruby/Lisp/Smalltalk on *nix makes me sick :S Oh well, back to
> work(*nix!).
Well put,
nikolai (the sarcastic bastard)
Jamey Cribbs
>Curt Hibbs has a good point, and I think he was completely
>professional about it. David's post _was_ pretty arrogant. I
>personally don't like OS X. I don't like the idea of having to run my
>OS only on proprietary hardware. Nor do I like the Apple (and Gems)
>method of giving applications separate directories. And to be honest,
>I'm not all that impressed with OS X's interface, as crazy as that
>might sound. I'm not going to "get over it" and switch. I've used OS
>X computers and they're not for me. I'm sure others have had similar
>experiences. And I'm sure others have used OS X and loved it. Good
>for them.
>
>
Amen! My neighbor bought a fancy Powerbook running OS X. I have to go
over to his house every other weekend to help him figure out how to do
something. Every time I sit down in front of his laptop to do
something, I'm struck by how much I DO NOT like OS X. As Bill said, if
you prefer OS X, good for you. Just don't try to shove your particular
dogmatic beliefs down my throat by telling me I am a sub-par programmer
because I don't share your views.
>The fact is, you pick the environment you're most productive in and
>you leave it at that. Curt Hibbs and I (and whoever else) have a
>right to be bothered by the article. Paul Graham says a lot of
>things; his opinion about what "the best hackers" use isn't really a
>solid reason for me to consider shelling out a few thousand dollars
>for what, to me, is not an ideal system. David's post suggested that
>everyone not using a Mac is being intentionally stubborn or stupid -
>that they were too dumb to see that they should be moving to the Mac.
>Curt Hibbs had a right to be frustrated, and I'm glad he brought it
>up.
>
>
My neighbor paid over $2,500 for his Powerbook. I paid $1,300 for my
similarly equipped Emachines laptop. I guess this is one instance where
it pays to be stupid. :-)
Jamey Cribbs
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Bill Atkins
<mailing-lis...@rawuncut.elitemail.org> wrote:
> I think DHH simply phrased his blog-entry a bit slopily, or perhaps
> didn't actually manage to say what he was intending to say, that about
> choosing your tools well. Let's face it, discussing platforms is so
I don't think it had much to do with sloppiness. A lot of David's
posts (and even, unfortunately, some of those on the official Rails
weblog) have that same edge to them. This is not the first time he's
had to close comments on a post; there have been articles about the
superiority of Rails over Java (for example, the infamous "It's
incredible how much vile bile that lies within the Java community")
that were written in a similar tone and got a lot of the same kind of
feedback in the comments.
Bill Atkins
Stephen Kellett
writes
>I've finally started a blog. I really didn't want to go public with it
>until I was sure I keep it up, but DHH posted a entry to his blog that
>I feel compelled to comment on.
I shouldn't worry about it. Having gone out of my way to read his blog
entry I can only assume that if this is the current state of "Loud
Thinking" I now know why I don't bother reading it. What utter drivel.
It could just be possible, couldn't it that some people have a different
perspective on things than DHH, and actually, shock, like Windows?
Frankly, I hate Macs, because they are overpriced, proprietary, still
only have one mouse button, etc...
Stephen
--
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk
RSI Information: http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/rsi.html
Stephen Kellett
<batk...@gmail.com> writes
>I don't think it had much to do with sloppiness. A lot of David's
>posts (and even, unfortunately, some of those on the official Rails
>weblog) have that same edge to them. This is not the first time he's
>had to close comments on a post; there have been articles about the
>superiority of Rails over Java (for example, the infamous "It's
>incredible how much vile bile that lies within the Java community")
>that were written in a similar tone and got a lot of the same kind of
>feedback in the comments.
So you think he writes this way to get notoriety?
Randy Kramer
> What's worse, the so called "hackers" really like that
> "everything is a file" mantra.
What is the alternative mantra / paradigm?
Randy Kramer
Austin Ziegler
> But:
>
> + To say that you have "run all but dry of understanding for
> programmers that willfully pick Windows as their platform of choice" to
> me seems to imply a complete disinterest in understanding how other
> people make such decisions in the first place. For one thing, I know
> plenty of people who have never made the switch out of
> cost-consciousness, and I live in New York, not a very cost-conscious
> place to begin with.
Interestingly, the last time I bought a computer was two years ago. At
the time, I was looking for a lightweight laptop computer (under four
pounds) that was still powerful enough for my needs -- and fit within
my budget. The Mac that had the power I wanted was far too expensive,
IIRC (this would have included a RAM and hard-drive upgrade, I think),
and definitely too heavy.
It is only *now* that I look at Mac hardware that I think that the
prices are approaching reasonable for the power/weight balance.
My criteria limited me to Wintel machines. I won't use Linux -- it's
not ready for primetime. I despise Gnome and dislike KDE. There is a
striking inconsistency in the usability of Linux GUI applications,
mostly toward the "how can you use this stinking pile of..." sort of
comment. (Interestingly, with my most recent system recovery, I was
looking at doing a dual-boot to the machine I'm talking about; no
Linux out there supported my hardware properly. I would have been
looking at a 70% functionality limit.)
I bought a Tablet PC. It was lightweight (4 pounds with keyboard
attached, 3 pounds without) and powerful enough. I have also upgraded
its memory and its disk space. There's NO regrets here, and I resent
the implication that because I chose bleeding edge hardware that's
*different*, I'm a lesser developer.
-austin
--
Austin Ziegler * halos...@gmail.com
* Alternate: aus...@halostatue.ca
James Britt
> ...and I resent
> the implication that because I chose bleeding edge hardware that's
> *different*, I'm a lesser developer.
Think different, but not different from me.
James
Dick Davies
> Frankly, I hate Macs, because they are overpriced, proprietary, still
> only have one mouse button, etc...
You have an opinion which differs from mine! I will fill up a mailing
list for two days arguing the toss about it!
Come on now, guys, if you want to have a 'my OS is leetier than thou'
argument, there are other places to do it.
--
'When you have to kill a man it costs nothing to be polite.'
-- Winston Churchill, On formal declarations of war
Rasputin :: Jack of All Trades - Master of Nuns
James Britt
>
> So you think he writes this way to get notoriety?
Nah; might just be a spell of blogorrhea.
However, PC users responding to requests for help with Rails might want
to admit to their transgression when posting, so that the recipient
knows to view the response with adequate suspicion.
James
--
"There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and
that is not being talked about."
Oscar Wilde, The Picture of Dorain Gray
Luc Heinrich
> Frankly, I hate Macs, because they are overpriced, proprietary, still
> only have one mouse button, etc...
Utter bullshit. Please grow up.
--
Luc Heinrich - luc...@mac.com
James Britt
>
> Come on now, guys, if you want to have a 'my OS is leetier than thou'
> argument, there are other places to do it.
0r 47 |3457 p057 1n l33t5p34k.
J4m35
Bill Atkins
On Fri, 1 Apr 2005 00:44:12 +0900, James Britt <jam...@neurogami.com> wrote:
> 0r 47 |3457 p057 1n l33t5p34k.
>
> J4m35
--
Steven Jenkins
> You have an opinion which differs from mine! I will fill up a mailing
> list for two days arguing the toss about it!
>
> Come on now, guys, if you want to have a 'my OS is leetier than thou'
> argument, there are other places to do it.
+1
Anybody else like OS/8 or RT-11?
Steve
Tom Copeland
TRS-DOS uber alles!
tom
Curt Hibbs
> Stephen Kellett <sn...@objmedia.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>>Frankly, I hate Macs, because they are overpriced, proprietary, still
>>only have one mouse button, etc...
>
>
> Utter bullshit. Please grow up.
Let's not get personal, this was I was complaining about in my original
post that started this thread.
We all make our choices based on considerations that are important to
us. Stephen can hate the Mac and you can love the Mac. It is what it is,
and no growing up is required.
Jim Burton
It's got to be Plan 9! There's always room in my partition table for
Glenda the aloof bunny (now there's a mascot) and when I meet
developers who don't use it, well, I leave the room.
Stephen Kellett
<halos...@gmail.com> writes
>I bought a Tablet PC.
Cool. Tell us more. I've yet to see one of these beasts or meet anyone
thats used one.
Stephen
Stephen Kellett
<rasp...@hellooperator.net> writes
>* Stephen Kellett <sn...@objmedia.demon.co.uk> [0335 15:35]:
>> Frankly, I hate Macs, because they are overpriced, proprietary, still
>> only have one mouse button, etc...
>
>argument, there are other places to do it.
I'm having that argument. I was stating my reasons for disliking Macs.
Nowhere did I say that Linux/Windows/whatever was better than OS X. I'm
quite happy if you want to pay more for your hardware (after all many
people drive more expensive cars than I do and I don't get upset about
that) and use a different OS.
Stephen Kellett
<jam...@neurogami.com> writes
>Nah; might just be a spell of blogorrhea.
:-)
>However, PC users responding to requests for help with Rails might want
>to admit to their transgression when posting, so that the recipient
>knows to view the response with adequate suspicion.
I'd have thought he should welcome Rails uptake on Windows. More proof
he has a good solution. Telling your potential customers they are
somehow lesser for using a platform he doesn't personally like is, well,
it strikes me as that he has an attitude problem.
Look up "Ed Esber" on Google. Look at what company he ran and why it
failed.
Stephen
Stephen Kellett
<jam...@neurogami.com> writes
No. By definition, anyone that uses leetspeak, isn't in the elite.
Stephen Kellett
<luc...@mac.com> writes
>Stephen Kellett <sn...@objmedia.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Frankly, I hate Macs, because they are overpriced, proprietary, still
>> only have one mouse button, etc...
>
>Utter bullshit. Please grow up.
Identify the statement that isn't true. Overpriced: Lots of others have
given examples. The other two statements are facts.
If you like your Mac that is fine with me. Apparently me not liking Macs
is not fine with you. Who has the more mature attitude? The tolerant
person, or the intolerant?
Joao Pedrosa
On Fri, 1 Apr 2005 01:44:46 +0900, Stephen Kellett
<sn...@objmedia.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <424C1A19...@neurogami.com>, James Britt
> <jam...@neurogami.com> writes
> >Nah; might just be a spell of blogorrhea.
>
> :-)
>
> >However, PC users responding to requests for help with Rails might want
> >to admit to their transgression when posting, so that the recipient
> >knows to view the response with adequate suspicion.
>
> I'd have thought he should welcome Rails uptake on Windows. More proof
> he has a good solution. Telling your potential customers they are
> somehow lesser for using a platform he doesn't personally like is, well,
> it strikes me as that he has an attitude problem.
>
> Look up "Ed Esber" on Google. Look at what company he ran and why it
> failed.
While you are at it, see this:
http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/03/31/1527257&from=rss
The whole IT has an attitude problem -- an attitude that leads
everyone to project failures. You are right, people on Windows, Linux
and Mac keep failing to deliver on time, on budget, what has been
planned. OSs don't matter. People do.
Cheers,
Joao
PA
On Mar 31, 2005, at 18:56, Joao Pedrosa wrote:
> The whole IT has an attitude problem -- an attitude that leads
> everyone to project failures. You are right, people on Windows, Linux
> and Mac keep failing to deliver on time, on budget, what has been
> planned. OSs don't matter. People do.
"Managing complexity: Most software projects fail to meet their goals"
http://www.economist.com/business/PrinterFriendly.cfm?Story_ID=3423238
Cheers
--
PA, Onnay Equitursay
http://alt.textdrive.com/
Ben Giddings
> My criteria limited me to Wintel machines. I won't use Linux -- it's
> not ready for primetime. I despise Gnome and dislike KDE. There is a
> striking inconsistency in the usability of Linux GUI applications,
> mostly toward the "how can you use this stinking pile of..." sort of
> comment. (Interestingly, with my most recent system recovery, I was
> looking at doing a dual-boot to the machine I'm talking about; no
> Linux out there supported my hardware properly. I would have been
> looking at a 70% functionality limit.)
Which hardware is it that you're trying to support? The tablet PC? If
so, there's no surprise there, that's the type of hardware that's least
likely to be well supported under Linux, since it's new and very windowsey.
Hardware support, and drivers in general, are one of the biggest
weaknesses in Linux. Personally, I blame the short-sighted
manufacturers. They focus all their efforts into making sure that their
software works on windows, even to the point of making themed GUIs and
other useless eye candy. On the Linux side, they won't even put in
enough support effort so that other people can write the drivers for them.
Sure, Linux users are only about 1% of the market, but they get much
less than 1% of the effort.
In any case, Linux UIs are getting better all the time. KDE 3.4 is very
good, and very consistent -- but only if you stick to KDE applications.
It's still a bit annoying for me, since I use Thunderbird, Firefox and
Emacs. I can get Thunderbird and Firefox to use the same widgets as the
other KDE apps with the help of gtk-qt-engine, but some things like
printing and clipboard usage, etc. are still inconsistent.
OTOH, I get the commandline. Having a native ZSH, a simple to use
package manager, and everything for free means that there's no reason
for me to use Windows at all anymore. Windows just didn't work the way
I needed, Linux does. I should say *nix does, because I also have an
iBook which I love.
The other factor for me is cost. I have thousands of packages on my
system, all of which are free. My work PC cost nothing more than the
components, but every Windows PC at work also requires an OS ($), Office
($), an IDE ($), a virus scanner ($), and so on. My PC is so hassle and
cost-free for IT that they want to give me hardware instead.
Of course, YMMV. I'm glad that we have really good Ruby people using
every OS out there. That helps make sure that all platforms work well
with Ruby, and that none of the platforms get left behind. Having a
good, consistent Ruby environment on every platform is a great help for
Ruby coders and users of Ruby apps and libs.
Ben
Stephen Kellett
<joaop...@gmail.com> writes
>The whole IT has an attitude problem -- an attitude that leads
>everyone to project failures. You are right, people on Windows, Linux
>and Mac keep failing to deliver on time, on budget, what has been
>planned. OSs don't matter. People do.
Go it in one.
Austin Ziegler
> Austin Ziegler wrote:
>> My criteria limited me to Wintel machines. I won't use Linux --
>> it's not ready for primetime. I despise Gnome and dislike KDE.
>> There is a striking inconsistency in the usability of Linux GUI
>> applications, mostly toward the "how can you use this stinking
>> pile of..." sort of comment. (Interestingly, with my most recent
>> system recovery, I was looking at doing a dual-boot to the
>> machine I'm talking about; no Linux out there supported my
>> hardware properly. I would have been looking at a 70%
>> functionality limit.)
> Which hardware is it that you're trying to support? The tablet PC?
> If so, there's no surprise there, that's the type of hardware
> that's least likely to be well supported under Linux, since it's
> new and very windowsey.
That's part of it, and why I went with a single-boot Tablet PC with
Windows XP Tablet last time I needed to reinstall (on a larger hard
drive). But Linux support of laptops is questionable in general (I
haven't had any luck with hibernation or even suspend) and is as
questionable on some USB/USB2 devices.
I understand that most of this is the problem of manufacturers, but
it's also a problem of the licence behind Linux and the hard-line
that some kernel developers take wrt "non-free" code.
> Sure, Linux users are only about 1% of the market, but they get
> much less than 1% of the effort.
I'd be surprised if Linux users are even that much of the market for
new and hot hardware.
> In any case, Linux UIs are getting better all the time. KDE 3.4 is
> very good, and very consistent -- but only if you stick to KDE
> applications. It's still a bit annoying for me, since I use
> Thunderbird, Firefox and Emacs. I can get Thunderbird and Firefox
> to use the same widgets as the other KDE apps with the help of
> gtk-qt-engine, but some things like printing and clipboard usage,
> etc. are still inconsistent.
Yeah, well, KDE is my preferred GUI when I have to use Linux. Gnome
is a beast and won't ever be anything but.
> OTOH, I get the commandline. Having a native ZSH, a simple to use
> package manager, and everything for free means that there's no
> reason for me to use Windows at all anymore. Windows just didn't
> work the way I needed, Linux does. I should say *nix does, because
> I also have an iBook which I love.
*shrug* That's where we differ. I use a Norton Commander clone
(Total Commander) in place of the command-line most of the time. I
use the command-line in Windows to great effect for many things, and
I can drop into Cygwin if I need to.
> The other factor for me is cost. I have thousands of packages on
> my system, all of which are free. My work PC cost nothing more
> than the components, but every Windows PC at work also requires an
> OS ($), Office ($), an IDE ($), a virus scanner ($), and so on. My
> PC is so hassle and cost-free for IT that they want to give me
> hardware instead.
The OS is included with the cost of my specialty hardware, but I'll
grant you the OS cost. I haven't installed MS Office on my tablet PC
this time around (I will, eventually, since I have the licence for
it), but I have installed OpenOffice. I can use the free Windows
development tools, but most of my development on that machine is in
Ruby -- I don't need an IDE. The virus scanner that I use is free.
The only thing that I use in development that I paid for is Total
Commander -- and it's worth every penny.
I do have other software which I've bought that makes it very hard
to move from Windows, and it's really good software. But it's not my
development or word processing software.
Stephen Kellett
<petite....@gmail.com> writes
>"Managing complexity: Most software projects fail to meet their goals"
>
>http://www.economist.com/business/PrinterFriendly.cfm?Story_ID=3423238
Quote from the article:
"There are five steps involved in creating a piece of software:
enumerating the requirements; designing the program; actually writing
the code; testing it; and then deploying it. "
I disagree with this. There is definitely another step to be performed.
Hiring the right people. The right people for one project are not
necessarily the right people for another project.
Gavri Fernandez
of college. Windows at work for almost 3 years now (The full length of
my working life). I spend a lot of time on Cygwin while working on
Windows because the command-line tools that come with Windows are
pretty useless. Never seen a Mac in my life (Not counting TV and pics
in magazines).
My point is this: When I read Paul Graham's article and David's
post about Macs, what I felt was not anger or disappointment but pure
freaking happiness that there is something better out there --
something I can look forward t!. The reactions in this thread are from
Mac users who go "Macs are great! You should try it!" or from
Linux/Windows users "What an elitist attitude".
What about all the Windows users who look forward to using Macs?!?
Am I the only one? :-)
--
Gavri
http://gavri.blogspot.com
Nikolai Weibull
> > OTOH, I get the commandline. Having a native ZSH, a simple to use
> > package manager, and everything for free means that there's no
> > reason for me to use Windows at all anymore. Windows just didn't
> > work the way I needed, Linux does. I should say *nix does, because I
> > also have an iBook which I love.
> *shrug* That's where we differ. I use a Norton Commander clone (Total
> Commander) in place of the command-line most of the time. I use the
> command-line in Windows to great effect for many things, and I can
> drop into Cygwin if I need to.
Ah, a fellow total commander addict. It's the one application I have
installed on my Windows installation besides Warcraft 3,
nikolai
--
::: name: Nikolai Weibull :: aliases: pcp / lone-star / aka :::
::: born: Chicago, IL USA :: loc atm: Gothenburg, Sweden :::
::: page: minimalistic.org :: fun atm: gf,lps,ruby,lisp,war3 :::
main(){printf(&linux["\021%six\012\0"],(linux)["have"]+"fun"-97);}
James F. Hranicky
Stephen Kellett <sn...@objmedia.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> "There are five steps involved in creating a piece of software:
> enumerating the requirements; designing the program; actually writing
> the code; testing it; and then deploying it. "
>
> I disagree with this. There is definitely another step to be performed.
> Hiring the right people. The right people for one project are not
> necessarily the right people for another project.
I think this is closer
Project.hire()
Project.requirements()
begin
Project.design()
rescue Project::RequirementsChange
Project.redo_requirements
retry
rescue Project::SlackerProgrammer, Project::GroupCantGetalong
Project.adjust_personnel
retry
end
begin
Project.code()
rescue Project::RequirementsChange
Project.redo_requirements
Project.redesign
Project.arguments_with_spouse
retry
rescue Project::SlackerProgrammer, Project::GroupCantGetalong
Project.adjust_personnel
retry
rescue Project::DesignActuallySucked
Project.redesign
Project.work_late
Project.start_drinking
retry
end
begin
Project.test()
rescue Project::RequirementsChange
Project.curse_customer
Project.consider_culinary_school
Project.redo_requirements
Project.redesign
Project.salvage_as_much_code_as_possible
Project.recode
Project.separation_from_family
retry
rescue Project::SlackerProgrammer, Project::GroupCantGetalong
Project.adjust_personnel
Project.consider_your_own_adjustment
Project.hate_all_people
retry
rescue Project::DesignActuallySucked
Project.redesign
Project.work_late
Project.start_drinking
Project.salvage_as_much_code_as_possible
Project.recode
retry
end
begin
Project.deploy()
rescue Project::RequirementsChange
Project.wait_until_v_2_0
rescue Project::SlackerProgrammer, Project::GroupCantGetalong
Project.fire_everyone
retry
rescue Project::DesignActuallySucked
Project.too_bad
retry
rescue Project::AFewBugs
Project.maintain
rescue Project::ALotOfBugs
Project.work_late
Project.divorce
Project.know_project_members_better_than_I_ever_knew_spouse
Project.wish_I_built_bridges_instead
retry
rescue Project::TonsOfBugs
Project.scrap
end
Project.earn_money_if_havent_exited_yet
Project.therapy
Project.go_to_culinary_school
Jim
Jon Raphaelson
> In message <e4fbd4562864e490...@gmail.com>, PA
> <petite....@gmail.com> writes
>
>> "Managing complexity: Most software projects fail to meet their goals"
>>
>> http://www.economist.com/business/PrinterFriendly.cfm?Story_ID=3423238
>
>
> Quote from the article:
> "There are five steps involved in creating a piece of software:
> enumerating the requirements; designing the program; actually writing
> the code; testing it; and then deploying it. "
>
> I disagree with this. There is definitely another step to be performed.
> Hiring the right people. The right people for one project are not
> necessarily the right people for another project.
>
> Stephen
Still one more step: Sell the bloddy hell out of the thing. Whether it
be open source and your goal is downloads or commercial and your goal is
$$, software isn't finished until it's in the end users hands IMHO.
Jon
Rob .
> However, what I think Paul is mainly talking about are
> the Apple laptops, not necessarily Macintoshes in general. When it
> comes to choosing a laptop, your basically bound to whatever is
> available, as there is no easy way of building one yourself. Then, as
> the market is today, you have a choice. You choose to go with something
> that is either covered with Intel(R) Inside(TM) and a Microsoft(R)
> Windows(TM) Pre-installed stickers or a big outline of an apple.
Just to let everyone know - you do have a choice when it comes to
laptops. I bought a no-name barebones laptop (Uniwill 223ii), added
the processor myself and installed Ubuntu GNU/Linux on it. The laptop
looks cool, so does the Ubuntu desktop, and the performance is great
because I got fast hardware for my money. No Windows tax and no Apple
tax either, but great for developing Ruby code on!
For people in developing countries the cost of proprietary software
(including the embedded marketing and legal costs) is an unnecessary
and unwanted expense. Free software can provide for their needs,
promote IT industry in their local economy and improve their nation's
trade balance.
Great (Ruby) prog'ers can and will come from developing nations, but
they don't need to be beholden to Microsoft or Apple to shine, neither
do the rest of us.
Mark Probert
On Thursday 31 March 2005 04:15, Nikolai Weibull wrote:
> * Bill Atkins (Mar 31, 2005 11:30):
> > Paul Graham says a lot of things; his opinion about what "the best
> > hackers" use isn't really a solid reason for me to consider shelling
> > out a few thousand dollars for what, to me, is not an ideal system.
>
>
> I think DHH simply phrased his blog-entry a bit slopily,
>
I am not so sure of that ...
> What really matters, and this is the point DHH was
> trying to make, are the tools that use, are contained in, and
> are activated by clicking on them.
>
DHH said "... good programmers are wielding Macs. There's the odd exception of
Linux here and there". So, the logic he follows is that IF you are a GOOD
programmer, you will be using, or switching to a Mac, preferably a Power
Book.
Clearly a troll, though I find his comments unfortunate. I have worked with a
lot of exceptional programmers. Given that many of these projects where for
embedded systems, their usage total of Macs was zero. DHH clearly implies
that they aren't worth their salt. The same goes for those talented
individuals I have worked with when we where doing client work on Sun boxes,
on IBM AS/400s and so on.
How sad to have such a biased and unkind view of the world.
The question that I personally ask myself is, given these comments, why would
I want to use Rails when there are lots of alternatives?
Regards,
--
-mark. (probertm at acm dot org)
Dick Davies
> Clearly a troll, though I find his comments unfortunate. I have worked with a
> lot of exceptional programmers. Given that many of these projects where for
> embedded systems, their usage total of Macs was zero. DHH clearly implies
> that they aren't worth their salt. The same goes for those talented
> individuals I have worked with when we where doing client work on Sun boxes,
> on IBM AS/400s and so on.
But they don't 'wield them', do they? Not unless they're the size of king kong,
at least.
> The question that I personally ask myself is, given these comments, why would
> I want to use Rails when there are lots of alternatives?
The simple answer is 'because it's really good.'
The next question that springs to mind is:
'what the hell does the developers personality have to do with your choice
of tools?'
--
'The heroes claimed that they did care about people getting shot,
so they crashed their cars into them instead.'
-- DNA, on 'Starsky and Hutch'
Rasputin :: Jack of All Trades - Master of Nuns
Dick Davies
> In message <20050331153...@eris.tenfour>, Dick Davies
> <rasp...@hellooperator.net> writes
> >* Stephen Kellett <sn...@objmedia.demon.co.uk> [0335 15:35]:
> >>Frankly, I hate Macs, because they are overpriced, proprietary, still
> >>only have one mouse button, etc...
> >
> >Come on now, guys, if you want to have a 'my OS is leetier than thou'
> >argument, there are other places to do it.
>
> I'm having that argument. I was stating my reasons for disliking Macs.
That's cool, I'm just bitching to the world at large here...
--
'zzz..Kill all humans. Kill all humans..zzz .....
I was having the most wonderous dream. You were in it.'
-- Bender
Luc Heinrich
> Identify the statement that isn't true. Overpriced: Lots of others have
> given examples. The other two statements are facts.
No, these are not facts. These are out-of-context pontifications. This
kind of trollish bullcrap has been "debated" for more than a decade now,
and I don't think that polluting this beatiful place with such nonsense
is a good idea. I shouldn't have replied to begin with, but I can't help
it. Sorry.
> If you like your Mac that is fine with me. Apparently me not liking Macs
> is not fine with you.
No, you don't understand. I really don't care, if Windows is your cup of
te a, so be it. I really, really don't care. However, I am really sick
and tired of reading this kind of nonsense (that, and that Python is an
elegant language). As I said, I should have just ignored these
nonsensical drivels, but again, I just can't help it.
Now face it. Macs are better, they come with Ruby pre-installed :p
--
Luc Heinrich - luc...@mac.com
Mark Probert
On Thursday 31 March 2005 07:09, Randy Kramer wrote:
> On Thursday 31 March 2005 06:04 am, Lopy wrote:
> > What's worse, the so called "hackers" really like that
> > "everything is a file" mantra.
>
> What is the alternative mantra / paradigm?
>
Have a look at
http://tunes.org/Review/OSes.html
A few paradigms come to mind:
Object Oriented -- all OS components are first class objects (Oberon)
Distributed Objects -- all OS components are distributed objects (Amoeba)
No Files -- there is no concept of files at all, just an app (embedded OSs)
The "everything is a file" is a *nix mantra. The original MacOS wasn't like
that at all.
Luc Heinrich
> Given that many of these projects where for
> embedded systems, their usage total of Macs was zero.
"A lot of early coverage of the Mac Mini compares it to desktop PCs, or
even micro-ATX cases and other small PCs. What it looks like, though, is
a high-end embedded development board. Comparing it to other embedded
systems, you'll find that it's not much bigger, and it's smaller than
some. It has a broader array of connectors, a faster processor, support
for a very large amount of memory, and comes with self-hosted
development tools. In short, if you look at it as an embedded
development platform, it's a competitive one."
<http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/power/library/pa-macmini1/?ca=dgr
-mw01macminip1>
:)
David Heinemeier Hansson
> until I was sure I keep it up, but DHH posted a entry to his blog that
> I feel compelled to comment on.
(I hadn't spotted the cross-posting at first, so here's a reprint for
those not on that list)
There's no mistake. Hiring a programmer is a composite image of many
things good and bad. For 37signals, it's definitely a disadvantage to
still be a Windows user. I wouldn't say that it's impossible, just
considerably harder, to convince us that it didn't matter too much.
The choices you make as a programmer serves as indicators for your
cultural standing and performance. The kind of books you read, the
methodologies that you favor, the pastime projects you're involved
with, and yes, your choice of programming language and computing
environment.
Just like hiring someone with a declared love for Java wouldn't make
sense for 37signals, hiring someone who thinks that Windows is the best
platform for open source use and development doesn't make that much
sense either.
If your funds are tight, I'd see it natural that you picked a free
alternative, like Linux.
Naturally, this is a fairly context-dependent recommendation. If your
dream job is working on C# using Visual Studio for some Microsoft shop,
then of course a Windows setup is a good pick. I'm going to be a bit
baffled as to why that is, but I won't berate your choice of
environment to pursue that dream.
On the other hand, if you want to work with open source technologies
like the Rails stack of Apache/lighttpd, MySQL/PostgreSQL, Ruby/Rails,
etc, I find a strong disconnect with doing so from Windows. It's just
not a natural fit neither from a technological, cultural, or political
perspective. Actively pursuing or celebrating this unnatural fit raises
a red flag for me.
Additionally, I don't buy into the notion that discussion choice of
computing platform is similar to discussing what color you like better
or other instinctive matters. The choice is a conscious one and open
for debate.
--
David Heinemeier Hansson,
http://www.basecamphq.com/ -- Web-based Project Management
http://www.rubyonrails.org/ -- Web-application framework for Ruby
http://www.loudthinking.com/ -- Broadcasting Brain
why the lucky stiff
> The choices you make as a programmer serves as indicators for your
> cultural standing and performance. The kind of books you read, the
> methodologies that you favor, the pastime projects you're involved
> with, and yes, your choice of programming language and computing
> environment.
What does it mean if a programmer hang glides? Does it mean that their
perspective is too lofty and airborne, hence out of touch?
If I was a programmer, I would steer clear of:
* Jetskis
* Adverbs
* Ankle bracelets
* Using curtsy as a greeting
* Kid gloves
* Mechanical pencils
* Body building magazines
* Charcoal briquets
* and, social death itself: ultrasounds of other people's children!!
I know FOR A FACT that people who use mechanical pencils cannot be
trusted. They are liars. And often they will lie about not having an
extra pack of lead in their breast pocket. I know FOR A FACT that they
have lead -- right there -- in their breast coat pocket!
_why
Stephen Kellett
<luc...@mac.com> writes
>No, these are not facts.
So you are stating the Mac is not proprietary? Steve Jobs went out of
his way to kill the Mac clones.
So you are stating the Mac does not come with a one-button mouse?
>These are out-of-context pontifications.
Out of context, by now yes. Pontifications? No. Facts.
>This
>kind of trollish bullcrap
The trollish bullcrap started with your derogatory response, which I
note you are continuing with the above response.
If you can prove me incorrect, I'll be better informed. You have failed
to do that but chosen to respond with more abuse. Looks to me like you
are the troll. Please demonstrate why the Mac is not proprietary and
where I can buy a Mac with a mouse having more than one button.
Mark Probert
On Thursday 31 March 2005 11:31, Dick Davies wrote:
>
> But they don't 'wield them', do they? Not unless they're the size of king
> kong, at least.
>
Taken an axe to them is close :-)
> > The question that I personally ask myself is, given these comments, why
> > would I want to use Rails when there are lots of alternatives?
>
> The simple answer is 'because it's really good.'
>
So are IOWA, Nitro, Wee .. and the list goes on.
> The next question that springs to mind is:
> 'what the hell does the developers personality have to do with your choice
> of tools?'
That is a good question. Pragmatically, none. As I grow older, I find that
pragmatics matters less "doing the right thing", being "karmically clean", to
use West Coast speak. It is a personal choice of mine, like trying to use as
much freeware, or paying for shareware even when I can get the keys. Just my
personal choice.
Mark Probert
On Thursday 31 March 2005 11:49, Luc Heinrich wrote:
> Mark Probert <prob...@acm.org> wrote:
> > Given that many of these projects where for
> > embedded systems, their usage total of Macs was zero.
>
> <http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/power/library/pa-macmini1/?ca=dgr
> -mw01macminip1>
>
> :)
Excellent! Though still a little big and expensive for my microwave oven ;-)
Mark Probert
On Thursday 31 March 2005 12:06, David Heinemeier Hansson wrote:
>
> The choices you make as a programmer serves as indicators for your
> cultural standing and performance. The kind of books you read, the
> methodologies that you favor, the pastime projects you're involved
> with, and yes, your choice of programming language and computing
> environment.
>
Poor you! Such sad psycho-babble .. If you are motorhead, it means? Or an
opera fan?
Do you ~really~ believe this?
>
> Additionally, I don't buy into the notion that discussion choice of
> computing platform is similar to discussing what color you like better
> or other instinctive matters. The choice is a conscious one and open
> for debate.
>
David,
Here is a quick challenge. Design for us a VoIP cellphone. Take me through
your choices of hardware platform and OS. Don't forget that time to market
and end-user cost are paramount.
Regards,
Caleb Tennis
> through
> your choices of hardware platform and OS. Don't forget that time to
> market
> and end-user cost are paramount.
Couple into that notion that your major customer, a very large cellular
provider, requires that their engineering teams be able to read and
understand your embedded software code so that they can customize the
product after taking receipt of it.
Oh, and none of them are familiar with Ruby.
Austin Ziegler
<mailing-lis...@rawuncut.elitemail.org> wrote:
> * Austin Ziegler (Mar 31, 2005 19:30):
> > > OTOH, I get the commandline. Having a native ZSH, a simple to use
> > > package manager, and everything for free means that there's no
> > > reason for me to use Windows at all anymore. Windows just didn't
> > > work the way I needed, Linux does. I should say *nix does, because I
> > > also have an iBook which I love.
> > *shrug* That's where we differ. I use a Norton Commander clone (Total
> > Commander) in place of the command-line most of the time. I use the
> > command-line in Windows to great effect for many things, and I can
> > drop into Cygwin if I need to.
> Ah, a fellow total commander addict. It's the one application I have
> installed on my Windows installation besides Warcraft 3,
I'm NOT an addict. I can give it up any time I ...
NO YOU WILL NOT DELETE IT FROM MY SYSTEM!
This one application makes me at least 20 times more productive in
Windows than I will be in bash. With its built in FTP support and
pluggable SFTP support (flaky, but...), it is the *single* application
that is *always* running on my system. Always.
Austin Ziegler
> What about all the Windows users who look forward to using Macs?!?
> Am I the only one? :-)
No. I'm buying a Mac (PowerBook) when I can afford it. I might get a
Mac Mini in the interim.
But I am not a lesser developer because I *also* choose Windows.
Luc Heinrich
> Please demonstrate why the Mac is not proprietary and
> where I can buy a Mac with a mouse having more than one button.
No, I'm sorry, I won't, for 2 reasons:
- this place is not the right place.
- I've probably had this kind of "discussion" a quintizillion times and
I know exactly how it's going to end. There's absolutely no point.
Nikolai Weibull
> On Thursday 31 March 2005 07:09, Randy Kramer wrote:
> > What is the alternative mantra / paradigm?
> A few paradigms come to mind:
> Object Oriented -- all OS components are first class objects
> (Oberon)
> Distributed Objects -- all OS components are distributed
> objects (Amoeba)
> No Files -- there is no concept of files at all,
> just an app (embedded OSs)
And why are "objects" better than "files"? A file is an object right,
it's just a very hands-on alternative to hiding stuff behind objects and
interfaces. Think of it this way:
---------------------------------------
Operating System Programming language
---------------------------------------
UNIX Ruby
Oberon Java
---------------------------------------
Perhaps I'm being a bit blunt, but Oberon is dead, and UNIX is thriving.
You be the judge of what works best in practice,
Stephen Kellett
<luc...@mac.com> writes
>Stephen Kellett <sn...@objmedia.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Please demonstrate why the Mac is not proprietary and
>> where I can buy a Mac with a mouse having more than one button.
>
>No, I'm sorry, I won't, for 2 reasons:
>- this place is not the right place.
By email then.
>- I've probably had this kind of "discussion" a quintizillion times and
>I know exactly how it's going to end. There's absolutely no point.
There is every point. Its a matter of fact, not opinion. Either you are
right or you are wrong. You are wrong on the price front as others have
noted. On the remaining two point you are taking the classic "I know
better than thou" stance but refusing to provide the answers. That is a
stance that trolls take.
Stephen Kellett
Heinemeier Hansson <da...@loudthinking.com> writes
>There's no mistake. Hiring a programmer is a composite image of many
>things good and bad. For 37signals, it's definitely a disadvantage to
>still be a Windows user. I wouldn't say that it's impossible, just
>considerably harder, to convince us that it didn't matter too much.
You need to do some research on psychology. You really need to be
looking at the person and their ability, not at the fact they strongly
dislike Bovril and have a passion for Sushi.
>On the other hand, if you want to work with open source technologies
>like the Rails stack of Apache/lighttpd, MySQL/PostgreSQL, Ruby/Rails,
>etc, I find a strong disconnect with doing so from Windows.
There may be many reasons a company is using Windows, reasons which are
not made public. The Ruby/Rails/MySQL/otherOSS tools may be chosen
because they are still perceived as the most suitable/best (delete as
appropriate) whilst on windows (*). The fact that someone is using a
Proprietary OS/hardware has no bearing on their tool choice (except if
they are prevented from choosing the tool). They may also want to use
other software that is not available on your free OS of choice. Thus
they have to use Windows. Quite apart from they just like Windows. I've
tried Macs loads of times. I really do not like how they work. Why? I
don't know. Same with Bovril. Same with Independent skateboard trucks,
but Trackers are great.
On my last consulting gig at a Windows software house there were plenty
of tools you'd expect to find in Unixland in use - mainly Perl and
Python. Why? Because some of the guys writing Windows code wanted some
flexible tools for other jobs and chose those tools. Management didn't
mind, so the OSS tools get in the software house. An active move against
Windows would stop such a thing, as the OSS tools wouldn't be available
at all. In 1990 a company I worked for choose gcc to use as the compiler
for VMS and 6 different Unix OSes rather than use the native compiler
for each. They chose gcc as it was seen as the best tool (**).
Rails will be bigger and better with a strong Windows community. As will
any other OSS. Given you claim there is a political stance in your
choice, your choice is actively working against the widest possible
adoption of OSS.
>other instinctive matters. The choice is a conscious one and open for
>debate.
The answer boils down to "because I couldn't afford a Mac", or "because
its easier, I prefer this", or "I don't like that". For me, all 3
exclude Macs as a possible choice. I wouldn't choose my software
platform out of OSS/freedom/political considerations. I choose it
because I think it is the best/most appropriate for my needs (***). If
that meant I had to save for a Mac I would. Luckily for me, it doesn't.
Probably also explains why I don't have the lastest Warp-Factor 5,
Hyper-This-That-TheOther-Intelium 2000 box.
Note (*) (**) (***) are the same thing. People choose what is for them,
the best, most appropriate tool. For some, most appropriate may include
a quasi-political stance, which seems to be your case. Don't make the
mistake that everyone makes software decisions on those lines.
If you cannot get your head around the fact that other people do not
think the same way as you, you are going to have a hard time getting
people to adopt Rails when you actively antagonise them. People will
choose the best unless the people providing the best antagonise them.
See
http://www.insearchofstupidity.com/Book_Excerpts/Chapter_Five/chapter_fiv
e.html
I recommend reading the whole book. Its a hoot.
Final comment. Why didn't you write something intelligible like the
posting you made here rather than the stuff on the blog that caused this
bother?
Mark Probert
On Thursday 31 March 2005 13:08, Nikolai Weibull wrote:
>
> And why are "objects" better than "files"? ...
>
They are not, necessarily. The original poster simply asked about different
OS paradigms ...
> Perhaps I'm being a bit blunt, but Oberon is dead, and UNIX is thriving.
> You be the judge of what works best in practice,
>
Technical merit and market place success are not one in the same. See
http://www.cryptonomicon.com/beginning.html
for more.
gabriele renzi
sorry, but is'nt winNT based on the everything is a object?
David Heinemeier Hansson
> looking at the person and their ability, not at the fact they strongly
> dislike Bovril and have a passion for Sushi.
To me, a person is defined in large parts by their likes and dislikes.
It reflects their view on the world and in turn their cultural fit in
an organization. Some preferences are more relevant than others, so
while sharing food preferences would perhaps make it easier to gel for
lunch breaks, your choice of computing environment tells me something
about your approach to software development.
For the type of applications 37signals (and others in the same sphere)
pursue, Apple are on many fronts a role model. The shared appreciation
of Apple's products is an important component of the company culture.
Just like a shared appreciation of the open source benefits is an
important component.
The mash of shared values, aspirations, and appreciations creates a
unity that makes it easier to operate efficiently. We can communicate
by alluding to references and settle arguments by drawing on
authoritarian examples.
As such, I'm a bit surprised by the apparent controversial nature of
the original posting. Sure, it was worded with enough sting to likely
cause a reaction. But that 37signals, and companies in general, base
hiring decisions on a sound technical/cultural/political fit surprise
me to come as a surprise.
While raw programming talent most certainly is an important facet of
the hiring game, it is by far not the only one. Or even the most
important one. I'd take a good programmer with a good fit on the three
axis as described above any day over a superstar with a bad fit.
> Rails will be bigger and better with a strong Windows community. As
> will any other OSS. Given you claim there is a political stance in
> your choice, your choice is actively working against the widest
> possible adoption of OSS.
I heartily welcome a strong Windows community on Rails. In part because
I see getting on Rails as a great way of in turn getting people onto OS
X/'nix. Just as I see getting on Rails as an introduction to Ruby.
And while being on Windows doesn't help your chances getting a job at
37signals, it doesn't mean that I devalue your clever patches or other
contributions to Rails. I believe you would be a happier and more
productive participant if you were doing it from a platform like OS X,
but if that's not in the cards (for lack of funds, corporate policies,
or whatever), I'll cope.
In other words, to use or contribute to Rails doesn't require as close
a TCP fit as I would demand from a coworker. I believe you're going to
have a more enjoyable ride in that community if the fit _is_ closer,
but it's not a permission pass.
As an example of good fit, I don't think it's a surprise that pretty
much all of the Rails core contributors are Mac users. That Rails heavy
shops like Robot Coop (43 Things), Combustion Labs, and others are
using Macs. Of course they didn't have to, but it was a natural fit.
> For some, most appropriate may include a quasi-political stance, which
> seems to be your case. Don't make the mistake that everyone makes
> software decisions on those lines.
Oh, I know they don't. The market share of the predominate OS in the
world hasn't eluded me :). I am saying that I have a much harder time
relating to (and in some cases understanding) people who choose that
path.
> Final comment. Why didn't you write something intelligible like the
> posting you made here rather than the stuff on the blog that caused
> this bother?
The conclusions you choose to draw from a handful of paragraphs in a
blog posting are your own. But okay, I concede that a longer posting
not written at 4:22 AM would have had a larger chance of explaining my
position in full. I don't know if it would have caused less of a stir,
but perhaps there would have been fewer questions about motives.
I also readily concede the provocative nature of the posting. I believe
that the way forward consists of both some rubbing against and with the
furs. Since my threshold on personal attacks (arrogant, stupid,
stubborn, childish, ridiculous) is pretty high, I'm okay taking
aggressive push-back on controversial stances.
And there's nothing like a spring cleansing :). Just as the
temperatures in Denmark are rising from just a couple into the tens. A
change of season. Maybe you should consider the occasion ripe to do a
chance of computing environment? I know this great platform... oh,
wait. My evangelistic record looped. Sorry about that. Should be at
least 3 months before we try a replay from a different angle.
Matt Lawrence
At least David didn't admit to being a member of Mensa :-)
-- Matt
Nothing great was ever accomplished without _passion_
Curt Hibbs
original post.
Curt
Mark Probert
On Thursday 31 March 2005 14:14, gabriele renzi wrote:
> Mark Probert ha scritto:
> >
> > The "everything is a file" is a *nix mantra. The original MacOS wasn't
> > like that at all.
>
> sorry, but is'nt winNT based on the everything is a object?
I am not sure, however I seem to recall that it was developed more along the
lines of the VAX VMS than Unix. I think that BeOS is another object OS,
though I am not sure of that either.
Jay Levitt
da...@loudthinking.com says...
>
> As an example of good fit, I don't think it's a surprise that pretty
> much all of the Rails core contributors are Mac users.
Darn it.. you're going to make me contribute just to prove you wrong,
aren't you?
--
Jay Levitt |
Wellesley, MA | I feel calm. I feel ready. I can only
Faster: jay at jay dot fm | conclude that's because I don't have a
http://www.jay.fm | full grasp of the situation. - Mark Adler
Bill Kelly
>
> Identify the statement that isn't true. Overpriced: Lots of others have
> given examples. The other two statements are facts.
Disclaimer: I develop on Windows, OS X, and Linux... All
three have characteristics I like, and dislike...
It's true Macs ship with a one-button mouse. But I have a
two-button Logitech w/ scroll wheel hooked up to the Mac
here... both buttons + the scroll wheel are functional.
(So if one can afford $15 for a third party mouse, the one-
button thing is a non-issue.)
Regarding the degree to which Macs are a proprietary
system: I do like that their operating system core is Open
Source. I think that's pretty cool.
( http://developer.apple.com/darwin/projects/darwin/ )
( download source:
rsync -vL "darwinsource.opendarwin.org::darwinsource/10.3.8/*.tar.gz" ./ )
So to me that makes OS X significantly less proprietary
than Windows. (At least as far as software goes. Maybe
you were referring to hardware.)
In any case, ..... MY AMIGA CAN BEAT UP YOUR ATARI-ST !!!
Just kidding,
Regards,
Bill
David Heinemeier Hansson
>> much all of the Rails core contributors are Mac users.
>
> Darn it.. you're going to make me contribute just to prove you wrong,
> aren't you?
Actually, we have a ton of patches coming from Windows users. But
please do join the party :).
By core, I was referring to people like Jeremy Kemper, Tobias Luekte,
Florian Weber, Sam Stephenson, Jamis Buck, and Scott Baron that all
have contributed substantial and continued parts of Rails. Enough to be
considered core contributors.
They are not the only core contributors, though. People like Marcel
Molina and Nicholas Seckar are contributing from Linux. And we've had
plenty of big and important patches from Windows users too. Not just
code, but people like Curt Hibbs have been doing a great job
documenting/evangelizing.
So. Again. I don't hate Windows people :). I just don't understand the
willful choice of that operating system in the defined context. And I'd
wish more of them would switch.
That should conclude my comments on the subject.
Dick Davies
> Hi ..
>
> On Thursday 31 March 2005 11:31, Dick Davies wrote:
[ on as-400s ]
> > But they don't 'wield them', do they? Not unless they're the size of king
> > kong, at least.
> Taken an axe to them is close :-)
You'd be there a while :)
I wish I could remember the origins of the quote I heard somewhere during an
'intel/amd clock cycle pissing contest' somewhere on usenet. Some grizzled vet
piped up with:
"They're not real computers.
A real computer is one that would kill you if it fell on you"
--
'The heroes claimed that they did care about people getting shot,
so they crashed their cars into them instead.'
-- DNA, on 'Starsky and Hutch'
Rasputin :: Jack of All Trades - Master of Nuns
Navindra Umanee
> You need to do some research on psychology. You really need to be
> looking at the person and their ability, not at the fact they strongly
> dislike Bovril and have a passion for Sushi.
Personally, I hate Sushi. Well, I've never eaten nor tasted it... so
I guess I really only hate the idea of it. I mean, raw fish? Gross!
That's bad enough but stuffing it with nutritionally deficient rice
for filler? The only redeeming part is the seaweed, IMHO.
Just looked up Bovril and it sounds just as disgusting!
On the other hand, I quite like Ruby...
Cheers,
Navin.
/me wonders what his job prospects in Japan are now... ;-)
Lloyd Zusman
The more of this thread that I read, the more I find myself wondering
where's alt.cascade when you need it.
--
Lloyd Zusman
l...@asfast.com
God bless you.
Stephen Kellett
<prob...@acm.org> writes
>I am not sure, however I seem to recall that it was developed more along the
>lines of the VAX VMS than Unix.
Dave Cutler was the architect for VMS and NT. Under the Win32 API,
pretty much everything is an object. This is exposed at the API level by
handles to the objects. Probably better considered as object-based
rather than object oriented.
Mark Probert
On Thursday 31 March 2005 15:19, Dick Davies wrote:
>
> "They're not real computers.
> A real computer is one that would kill you if it fell on you"
I liked the old one: Real computers are black and have blinking lights.
BeBox got it right, and Tandem were a past master of the Art ;-)
Ben Giddings
> Personally, I hate Sushi. Well, I've never eaten nor tasted it... so
> I guess I really only hate the idea of it. I mean, raw fish? Gross!
> That's bad enough but stuffing it with nutritionally deficient rice
> for filler? The only redeeming part is the seaweed, IMHO.
Ok, well this is waaaay off-topic, but so is this whole thread, so I'll
just do a little sushi-education.
Sushi is actually all about the rice. The fact that a lot of sushi is made
with raw fish is actually a minor aspect. One of the tastiest (and most
difficult to make) sushi treats is "tamago", a sweet scrambled egg. Sushi
can also be made with cooked seafood: bbq eel, cooked shrimp, etc. The
one common thread is the rice. The rice is not just plain white rice,
it's a special rice cooked with sugar and rice vinegar so that it is
sticky, sweet, and a bit sour.
Raw fish by itself is sashimi. It's almost always served with rice, but
this time the focus is on the fish, not the rice.
In any case, raw tuna and raw salmon are two of my all-time favourite
things to eat. I like the other things you'll find in sushi too, but
these two are common, and delicious. I used to hate fish, but it turns
out that what I hated was badly-prepared cooked fish. Raw tuna and
salmon, like you'll see in sushi, is nothing like cooked fish. It's
almost like lightly-flavoured jello. I don't mind a medium-rare tuna
steak, but to me, cooking fish is now pretty much ruining it.
You should try a "california roll" sometime. It's made from cooked crab
(well normally imitation crab), cucumber, and avocado, often sprinkled
with sesame seeds. Nothing raw in there, other than the veggies.
I've had sushi in Tokyo, and it was pretty good. I couldn't afford
high-class places, just little stalls. The best sushi I've found is in
Vancouver, Canada. I guess the ultra-fresh salmon is what does it.
Ben
Stephen Kellett
<bi...@cts.com> writes
>It's true Macs ship with a one-button mouse.
Thanks. Could have sworn someone here was claiming I was telling
untruths about this.
>(So if one can afford $15 for a third party mouse, the one-
>button thing is a non-issue.)
But it shouldn't have to be. For something which is an infinite
improvement. Anyone trying to sell a one button mouse for windows
machines would be committing commercial suicide.
>So to me that makes OS X significantly less proprietary
>than Windows. (At least as far as software goes. Maybe
>you were referring to hardware.)
Both. The core OS software is not proprietary, but the layer on top,
well its what makes it a Mac and not a G5 with a free OS. As for the
hardware, its Apple specific, made so that it can accept accessory cards
already made for the Wintel arena. Smart move, but still proprietary.
Jobs killed the Mac clones for a reason.
>In any case, ..... MY AMIGA CAN BEAT UP YOUR ATARI-ST !!!
Damn right it can. I could never afford an Amiga, so had to settle for
an Amiga. Nice hardware.
Douglas Livingstone
<bg-ru...@infofiend.com> wrote:
> In any case, raw tuna and raw salmon are two of my all-time favourite
> things to eat.
Aah, yes, I've had some lovely smoked salmon from Scotland - nothing
like the stuff I can buy down here. Will have to 43 things some raw
tuna.
Douglas
Paulo Sérgio
Matt Lawrence wrote:
+1. Let's just talk about Ruby ... better for all :-)
--
Paulo S Medeiros - B.Sc Student - DCC/COPPE/UFRJ - Brazil
vruz
> trusted. They are liars. And often they will lie about not having an
> extra pack of lead in their breast pocket. I know FOR A FACT that they
> have lead -- right there -- in their breast coat pocket!
yeah, let's lynch them.
who'd let this riff-raff into the room ?
Joe Van Dyk
> Ridiculous. You're saying Rails (I'm assuming that's what you mean by
> 'best domain specific language for free') wouldn't exist if David used
> Wintel? Please describe how these two concepts are related.
>
> Curt Hibbs has a good point, and I think he was completely
> professional about it. David's post _was_ pretty arrogant. I
> personally don't like OS X. I don't like the idea of having to run my
> OS only on proprietary hardware.
There's non-proprietary hardware out there?
Joe Van Dyk
<sn...@objmedia.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <051201c53645$9185de40$6442a8c0@musicbox>, Bill Kelly
> <bi...@cts.com> writes
> >It's true Macs ship with a one-button mouse.
>
> Thanks. Could have sworn someone here was claiming I was telling
> untruths about this.
>
> >(So if one can afford $15 for a third party mouse, the one-
> >button thing is a non-issue.)
>
> But it shouldn't have to be. For something which is an infinite
> improvement. Anyone trying to sell a one button mouse for windows
> machines would be committing commercial suicide.
Macintosh software is different from Windows software. Due to the one
button mouse, developers are pressured to not hide application
functionality into context menus.
And only having one button makes it much easier for computer
neophytes. I've known so many people who have problems knowing when
to right and left click on Windows machines.
Hal Fulton
> Stephen Kellett <sn...@objmedia.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Frankly, I hate Macs, because they are overpriced, proprietary, still
>>only have one mouse button, etc...
>
> Utter bullshit. Please grow up.
>
I'll assume that was sarcasm or some for of metahumor.
Hal
Hal Fulton
>
>> Can we all just get back to talking about Ruby?
>>
>> At least David didn't admit to being a member of Mensa :-)
>>
Haha... let's table that one.
Hal
Dave Burt
> What about all the Windows users who look forward to using Macs?!?
> Am I the only one? :-)
I must say I've been impressed with all I've seen of Mac OS X. The most
impressive thing to me is how amazingly pretty it is! (The menu... see a
poor reproduction at http://www.dave.burt.id.au/googlex/)
I've always held the view that the Mac assumes a level of stupidity on the
part of the user, and makes a bunch of technical and complicated stuff
harder to do that it would be on Win or Nix. But I've never given it a shot,
and from all reports, the interface is just thoroughly really well designed.
I'd be only too happy to be proven wrong.
I seriously looked at getting one about a month ago, and it was the prices
that turned me off. That and the fact that a Mac is essentially a black box;
no upgrading the video card or adding (internal for convenience) HD-DVD in a
year or two. So I'm still running Windows.
Cheers,
Dave
Lyndon Samson
> Additionally, I don't buy into the notion that discussion choice of
> computing platform is similar to discussing what color you like better
> or other instinctive matters. The choice is a conscious one and open
> for debate.
What is it about IT types that brings out religous discussions like
this so readily?
Maybe its all about testosterone and we need a few more women in the forum :-)
I wonder what OS Knuth uses...
--
Into RFID? www.rfidnewsupdate.com Simple, fast, news.
Aredridel
> > installed on my Windows installation besides Warcraft 3,
>
> I'm NOT an addict. I can give it up any time I ...
>
> NO YOU WILL NOT DELETE IT FROM MY SYSTEM!
>
> This one application makes me at least 20 times more productive in
> Windows than I will be in bash. With its built in FTP support and
> pluggable SFTP support (flaky, but...), it is the *single* application
> that is *always* running on my system. Always.
Time to try the new VFS plugins to Nautilus ;-)