I need serious help!
Joe Wiltrout
type game, but I have no programming experiance whatsoever. Someone told
me this was the best language to start learning with. So here I am,
confused about everything except blog making because of that "15 minute"
tutorial which turned out to take an hour+ for me. So I need someone to
tell me how to get started making even a basic game. Like 2d, horrible
graphics, the worst they can get. Like taking a game for 4 year olds,
then taking a step back. So simple, not even I want to play it. How
would one get started making any kind of game? And if anyone could
supply me with information for my sub-childrens game, that be nice too.
--
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
Joe Wiltrout
Joe Wiltrout
Space Bar to make your pirate character slash. That simple. With sucky
2d graphics. Like the same graphics as Pong or Pac-Man or Galaga, only
with pirates, on a ship deck. Eventually I want to make a pirate based
MMORPG based on the book Stormchaser, Book Two in the Edge Chronicals,
by Paul Stewart and Chris Riddell. Well, not based, but with the flying
ships and stuff. And different races, and different kinds of boats, and
hundreds of weapons, and tons of skills, and multiple classes, and
professions. Kind of like a Pirate WoW. I shall call it,
World of The Sky in the Spanish Main! Or not. I could call it WotSitSM!
Or not. Either way, this post is about my 2d sub-childrens pirate game.
With sucky graphics, one weapon, one pirate, one ship deck to fight on,
basic controls, and lots of bad animation enemy pirates with one weapon,
one outfit, and one shipdeck to fight on. I hope one of you experts can
help me.
John Joyce
You might want to start with Chris Pine's 'Learning to Program' then
move to Peter Cooper's 'Beginning Ruby: From Novice to Professional'.
Peter does a pretty cool intro with a text-adventure program, so you
can get your feet wet with the kinds of things that you'll face
programming games.
Joe Wiltrout
I sorta have no money to use on books and the like. I was hoping I could
avoid buying anything by consulting the greater population of Ruby
programmers. Maybe get someone to post a link to a good website that
dumbs the tutorials down enough for me to understand. And who knows?
Maybe I will get good enough that I will be able to go over to C++ and
not be this stupid. But I have heard that text-based games are easier to
make than games with moving graphics, so I might start off with a Sky
Pirate text-based game instead. It all depends whats easiest for a
beginner.
Joe Wiltrout
But thanks for the suggestion. Maybe when I get some cash, I shall buy
said books.
Skt
For me, alot of these guides i know i had issues with (especially why's guide) because in alot of parts i had no idea the direction he was going for. I'd definitley suggest googling and find which one fits.
Hth
skt
--
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
Peter Seebach
>I sorta have no money to use on books and the like. I was hoping I could
>avoid buying anything by consulting the greater population of Ruby
>programmers. Maybe get someone to post a link to a good website that
>dumbs the tutorials down enough for me to understand. And who knows?
>Maybe I will get good enough that I will be able to go over to C++ and
>not be this stupid. But I have heard that text-based games are easier to
>make than games with moving graphics, so I might start off with a Sky
>Pirate text-based game instead. It all depends whats easiest for a
>beginner.
If you wanna write text adventures, my recommendation would be Inform 6.
(I don't like 7 as much.) It's a domain-specific language, but gets a
lot of advantages from it; on the other hand, it is probably by far the
quirkiest language I've ever used.
Ruby's a nice generic language for learning things. You can find
Pine's learning to program online, although I couldn't swear that it's
word-for-word identical to the printed book.
Depending on what kind of "no money" is involved, if it's possible for you
to save up a few bucks here and there, it's not that hard to get a good
reference or something, and it is VERY useful. (You might consider the
PDF version of the PickAxe, which is cheaper than paper.)
-s
Skt
-----Original Message-----
From: "Joe Wiltrout" <wiltr...@hotmail.com>
To: "ruby-talk ML" <ruby...@ruby-lang.org>
Sent: 7/12/2007 10:26 PM
Subject: Re: I need serious help!
John Joyce wrote:
> That's a tall order!!
> You might want to start with Chris Pine's 'Learning to Program' then
> move to Peter Cooper's 'Beginning Ruby: From Novice to Professional'.
> Peter does a pretty cool intro with a text-adventure program, so you
> can get your feet wet with the kinds of things that you'll face
> programming games.
I sorta have no money to use on books and the like. I was hoping I could
avoid buying anything by consulting the greater population of Ruby
programmers. Maybe get someone to post a link to a good website that
dumbs the tutorials down enough for me to understand. And who knows?
Maybe I will get good enough that I will be able to go over to C++ and
not be this stupid. But I have heard that text-based games are easier to
make than games with moving graphics, so I might start off with a Sky
Pirate text-based game instead. It all depends whats easiest for a
beginner.
--
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
Joe Wiltrout
made in Ruby? Or is that mainly a Flash Player type game?
Joe Wiltrout
> Why's guide has an example of a text based game, i don't know if that'd
> be any help.
>
> For me, alot of these guides i know i had issues with (especially why's
> guide) because in alot of parts i had no idea the direction he was going
> for. I'd definitley suggest googling and find which one fits.
>
> Hth
> skt
An example of text based game? Cus I know what a text based game is,
and I have played many. Or do you mean how to code one? Because knowing
how to code one hits the nail right on the head. And, like I said, I
really can't afford to buy any materials. I just need something less
complicated than all these tutorials.
Joe Wiltrout
And would this 'Inform 6' be harder than Ruby? Because I don't even get
Ruby very well. And what's this 'Text Adventure' type thing? If you mean
text-based game, then I'll check it out. And say I was going to make
some sort of 2-d but still good graphic game, would it be possible in
Ruby, or would I have to use C++ or Java or something else? And could
you post a link to this Pines Learning to program? Because if it is as
helpful as you imply it to be, I would very much like to see it. And
define Quirky. I need to know what you mean before I go and confuse
myself on another coding language.
Chris Carter
http://poignantguide.net/ruby/index.html
It has an example for how to code a text game. Be warned though parts
of it are really wacky. It's as much a novel as it is a programming
book. But it is very comprehensive, works well, has a soundtrack, and
is free.
--
Chris Carter
concentrationstudios.com
brynmawrcs.com
Joe Wiltrout
g2p didnt help me much. I just got a bunch of gibberish for search
finds.
Skt
-----Original Message-----
From: "Joe Wiltrout" <wiltr...@hotmail.com>
To: "ruby-talk ML" <ruby...@ruby-lang.org>
Sent: 7/12/2007 11:00 PM
Subject: Re: I need serious help!
Skt wrote:
> Why's guide has an example of a text based game, i don't know if that'd
> be any help.
>
> For me, alot of these guides i know i had issues with (especially why's
> guide) because in alot of parts i had no idea the direction he was going
> for. I'd definitley suggest googling and find which one fits.
>
> Hth
> skt
An example of text based game? Cus I know what a text based game is,
and I have played many. Or do you mean how to code one? Because knowing
how to code one hits the nail right on the head. And, like I said, I
really can't afford to buy any materials. I just need something less
complicated than all these tutorials.
--
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
Joe Wiltrout
Wow... Even the front page scares me. And by comprehensive, you mean
easy for a teenager to understand? But I do like a good novel. And I do
wanna learn to program in Ruby, so to hell with saneness.
Skt
-----Original Message-----
From: "Joe Wiltrout" <wiltr...@hotmail.com>
To: "ruby-talk ML" <ruby...@ruby-lang.org>
Sent: 7/12/2007 11:15 PM
Subject: Re: I need serious help!
Skt
-----Original Message-----
From: "Joe Wiltrout" <wiltr...@hotmail.com>
To: "ruby-talk ML" <ruby...@ruby-lang.org>
Sent: 7/12/2007 11:17 PM
Subject: Re: I need serious help!
Skt wrote:
> Searching www.g2p.org Could be your best friend with ebooks and
> tutorials as well
g2p didnt help me much. I just got a bunch of gibberish for search
finds.
--
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
Joe Wiltrout
> Its an example of how to code one, and whys guide is free, so two birds.
> Although i dont know if you'd want to just skip to it without reading
> the guide a bit first.
Ty. But why do you make a new topic for every post? If you can't find
the post button, just click post with quote, and delte the qoute.
Peter Seebach
>And would this 'Inform 6' be harder than Ruby?
Maybe.
>Because I don't even get Ruby very well.
Ruby is not necessarily easier, or necessarily harder, than other languages;
different people find different languages easier. I found C easier to learn
than Ruby.
>And what's this 'Text Adventure' type thing?
Like Zork. If you don't know what that is, find a search engine.
Actually, in general, you might want to work on your research skills; before
asking a question, make at least one attempt to find the answer yourself.
That skill will matter more than anything else; it's what makes the
difference between theings being easy or hard to learn.
>If you mean
>text-based game, then I'll check it out. And say I was going to make
>some sort of 2-d but still good graphic game, would it be possible in
>Ruby, or would I have to use C++ or Java or something else? And could
>you post a link to this Pines Learning to program? Because if it is as
>helpful as you imply it to be, I would very much like to see it.
Well, if you were to search for "learn to program ruby" on Google, you'd
find it. First hit, even.
That's what's killing you here; not how easy or hard Ruby is, but how
quickly you give up without even making a couple of tries to find
something. Be more willing to make a couple of tries. It's okay if
sometimes they don't work out. Take some chances! Five minutes of
browsing the internet is not too high a price to pay for a good shot
at answering a question for yourself, and even the things you find
that aren't the answer you're looking for might be USEFUL to you.
>And define Quirky. I need to know what you mean before I go and confuse
>myself on another coding language.
Quirky languages are those with characteristics that don't make much sense;
for instance, it might be hard to tell when, or whether, you need commas
to separate items in lists. Inform6 is fairly quirky. Ruby's relatively
predictable.
-s
Joe Wiltrout
> Hmm, i found a bunch of perl books, ruby, python etc.
Free and online? Cus if so, hit me with some links for the ruby one. Im
starting to read Whys guide. I actually like it a great deal, and it
hasnt even gotten to anything about coding.
Skt
-----Original Message-----
From: "Joe Wiltrout" <wiltr...@hotmail.com>
To: "ruby-talk ML" <ruby...@ruby-lang.org>
Sent: 7/12/2007 11:26 PM
Subject: Re: I need serious help!
Skt wrote:
> Its an example of how to code one, and whys guide is free, so two birds.
> Although i dont know if you'd want to just skip to it without reading
> the guide a bit first.
Ty. But why do you make a new topic for every post? If you can't find
the post button, just click post with quote, and delte the qoute.
--
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
Joe Wiltrout
I hate to break it to you, but asking people is, and always will be, my
last resort. I prefer the feeling of independance rather than feeling
guilty because I didnt have anything to offer my advisor in return for
his/her information. I have searched every engine I know for free online
info about Ruby Game Programming and every other related term I could
think of. Hours upon hours. I went like 20 pages into google for one
term, until it got so irrelavant it became pure gibberish. Five minutes?
try 5 days. And as for my problem being whether something is easier or
harder, I have never coded before, and I am always just the ideas guy
when my friend codes things into his game. I have some kick ass ideas,
and I want to implement them into my own awesome game. Then me and his
game could be like partner companies or w/e. Orc Studios (my friends
gaming company, so to speak. Not really a company.) and Iceblaze
Entertainment. If you think that's anything close to Blizzard
Entertainment, sue me.
Joe Wiltrout
> Im posting from a cellphone, sorry bout that.
O. Okay. No problem. I was under the impression everyone was on a comp.
Bill Kelly
One 2D game library with Ruby bindings is gosu:
http://code.google.com/p/gosu/
Here's a post from Florian Gross about a game written in Ruby / Gosu,
running on Win32 / OS X / Linux:
http://blade.nagaokaut.ac.jp/cgi-bin/scat.rb/ruby/ruby-talk/187832
Screenshot: http://flgr.0x42.net/gdc72h-05/final.jpg
Also, here are some game-related ruby quizzes that might be apropos:
http://www.rubyquiz.com/quiz80.html Dungeon Generation
Two different solutions were submitted for doing 2D text based
dungeon generation.
http://www.rubyquiz.com/quiz49.html Lisp Game
Nineteen solutions were submitted for implementing a text adventure
game in ruby. (Porting a Lisp game to Ruby.)
You will be able to look at the ruby source code for all of the above.
Hope this helps,
Bill
Joe Wiltrout
> Dont try to tackle more than one at a time (my problem) thats for sure.
Great idea. My first problem is I need to know if coding games is
possible in Ruby. According to Why's, atleast Text Based Games are
possible. Problem solved. Next problem, I need to learn Ruby. Now im
gunna read thru some of Why's.
Peter Seebach
>I hate to break it to you, but asking people is, and always will be, my
>last resort. I prefer the feeling of independance rather than feeling
>guilty because I didnt have anything to offer my advisor in return for
>his/her information.
Eh, don't worry about that; there will come a day when you answer questions.
But for instance, you asked me what a text adventure is.
Did you try putting "text adventure" into Google and clicking on the
first link?
-s
Joe Wiltrout
Unfortunately, it is simply easier to ask you guys while I'm already
asking. But for now, I have assumed that Text Adventure and Text Based
game are the same thing, or nearly the same thing. An online interactive
book would be cool, but I could probably do that with Freewebs.
Peter Seebach
>Unfortunately, it is simply easier to ask you guys while I'm already
>asking.
And that's the thing; the best way to ask questions is to ask questions when
you get stuck, then go back to doing your own research and puzzling. You'll
learn faster that way than you would alternating between a couple of days of
research and then a frenzy of questions, most of which are trivial.
We make a better crutch than an escalator. :)
>But for now, I have assumed that Text Adventure and Text Based
>game are the same thing, or nearly the same thing.
I'd recommend reading more about them, then. Text adventures are a special
case.
-s
Joe Wiltrout
though. I be alot easier and wouldn't be lagged by my crappy comp. I
just wish it wasn't so distracting with the funny foxes though. It makes
my learning slower, but it makes it more enjoyable too. This guy was
smarter than Einstein. Make it fun to read For Dummies books. GENUIS!
John Joyce
If you want to know or try an excellent (but not easy) Text
Adventure, try the classic Zork, there are some free online versions
available. The original is still hosted online, accessible from the
command line. Originally it was only on a university's unix network,
back in the days of dumb terminals and no internet. It's old, but the
history of the game and its development is interesting and worth
reading if you want to create a game...
The first MUDs (multi-user dungeons) were pretty much inspired by
Zork and similar games (and dungeons and dragons of course). Ruby is
an excellent way to create just such a game for starters.
Later Text Adventures added some still pictures. The genre died out
long ago, with the advent of faster computers and better graphics
abilities.
Joe Wiltrout
I found an archive of Text Adventures on Wikipedia. Some of them look
rather fun. I look forward to making a totally awesome one that will
respark the genre. Not likely though. Maybe if I make it like MMORPG
style, just with no moving graphics, it would get some kind of popular.
Chad Perrin
> Skt wrote:
> > Dont try to tackle more than one at a time (my problem) thats for sure.
>
> Great idea. My first problem is I need to know if coding games is
> possible in Ruby. According to Why's, atleast Text Based Games are
> possible. Problem solved. Next problem, I need to learn Ruby. Now im
> gunna read thru some of Why's.
You can create just about any piece of software you like with Ruby. Ruby
is better suited for some things than others, however. For instance,
writing an operating system in Ruby might be a bit challenging
(especially since I'm not sure how practical it is to embed a Ruby
interpreter in your bootloader).
So . . . yes, you absolutely can write games in Ruby. I'm not a game
programmer myself, however, so it's a little outside my range of
expertise.
--
CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
Patrick J. LoPresti: "Emacs has been replaced by a shell script which 1)
Generates a syslog message at level LOG_EMERG; 2) reduces the user's disk
quota by 100K; and 3) RUNS ED!!!!!!"
Ari Brown
Just do a google search for 'Chris Pine +"learn to program"'
On Jul 12, 2007, at 10:26 PM, Joe Wiltrout wrote:
> John Joyce wrote:
>> That's a tall order!!
>> You might want to start with Chris Pine's 'Learning to Program' then
>> move to Peter Cooper's 'Beginning Ruby: From Novice to Professional'.
>> Peter does a pretty cool intro with a text-adventure program, so you
>> can get your feet wet with the kinds of things that you'll face
>> programming games.
>
> I sorta have no money to use on books and the like. I was hoping I
> could
> avoid buying anything by consulting the greater population of Ruby
> programmers. Maybe get someone to post a link to a good website that
> dumbs the tutorials down enough for me to understand. And who knows?
> Maybe I will get good enough that I will be able to go over to C++ and
> not be this stupid. But I have heard that text-based games are
> easier to
> make than games with moving graphics, so I might start off with a Sky
> Pirate text-based game instead. It all depends whats easiest for a
> beginner.
>
> --
> Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------|
~ Ari
crap my sig won't fit
James Edward Gray II
> In message <3086e6b698191ec8...@ruby-forum.com>, Joe
> Wiltrout writes:
>> I sorta have no money to use on books and the like. I was hoping I
>> could
>> avoid buying anything by consulting the greater population of Ruby
>> programmers. Maybe get someone to post a link to a good website that
>> dumbs the tutorials down enough for me to understand. And who knows?
>> Maybe I will get good enough that I will be able to go over to C++
>> and
>> not be this stupid. But I have heard that text-based games are
>> easier to
>> make than games with moving graphics, so I might start off with a Sky
>> Pirate text-based game instead. It all depends whats easiest for a
>> beginner.
>
> If you wanna write text adventures, my recommendation would be
> Inform 6.
> (I don't like 7 as much.) It's a domain-specific language, but gets a
> lot of advantages from it; on the other hand, it is probably by far
> the
> quirkiest language I've ever used.
There's a text adventure framework for Python called PAWS. It's
certainly something that could be redone in Ruby. I've considered
doing it myself.
See the solutions to this old quiz for some great ideas on how this
could work out:
http://www.rubyquiz.com/quiz49.html
James Edward Gray II
Joe Wiltrout
Could you do me a favor and link the PAWS adventure to this thread? If I
googled PAWS, I'm likely to get thousands of websites, from adoption
centers for abandoned fuzzy animals to strip clubs.
James Edward Gray II
We need to get you past this Google fear my friend. Google python
PAWS and it's the top hit.
James Edward Gray II
John Joyce
Indeed, pump up your Google-fu!
Never be afraid to google an entire sentence or question.
But in general, multiple keywords will get you good hits usually.
James Edward Gray II
> The idea of a MUD coded in Ruby intrigues
> me though...I might look into that...
Some already have:
http://rubyforge.org/search/?type_of_search=soft&words=MUD&Search=Search
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.ruby/browse_thread/thread/
cb59d2bb0a03efe6/ea70aa8e7c2f323a?
lnk=gst&q=TeensyMud&rnum=1#ea70aa8e7c2f323a
I really miss those TeensyMud announcements. ;)
James Edward Gray II
Joe Wiltrout
> On Jul 13, 2007, at 11:10 AM, James Edward Gray II wrote:
>
>>>>>
>>> thread? If I
>>> googled PAWS, I'm likely to get thousands of websites, from adoption
>>> centers for abandoned fuzzy animals to strip clubs.
>>
>> We need to get you past this Google fear my friend. Google python
>> PAWS and it's the top hit.
>>
>> James Edward Gray II
>>
> Indeed, pump up your Google-fu!
> Never be afraid to google an entire sentence or question.
> But in general, multiple keywords will get you good hits usually.
Okay, I found it. But guess what? It said that the new version was out,
and it lost me saying what was new. SO I'm going to go read Why's 10
more times, and ill be back in 2 years telling you i'v made Ruby say
SYNTAX ERRORS SUCK! backwards.
Joe Wiltrout
> On Fri, Jul 13, 2007 at 12:40:54PM +0900, Joe Wiltrout wrote:
>> Skt wrote:
>> > Dont try to tackle more than one at a time (my problem) thats for sure.
>>
>> Great idea. My first problem is I need to know if coding games is
>> possible in Ruby. According to Why's, atleast Text Based Games are
>> possible. Problem solved. Next problem, I need to learn Ruby. Now im
>> gunna read thru some of Why's.
>
> You can create just about any piece of software you like with Ruby.
> Ruby
> is better suited for some things than others, however. For instance,
> writing an operating system in Ruby might be a bit challenging
> (especially since I'm not sure how practical it is to embed a Ruby
> interpreter in your bootloader).
>
> So . . . yes, you absolutely can write games in Ruby. I'm not a game
> programmer myself, however, so it's a little outside my range of
> expertise.
What do you do with Ruby? I'v heard that programming better graphic
games like WoW would be hellishly hard. To my friend Matt, this stuff
seems to come naturally. To me, not so. I read 8 chapters of Why's and
took the in-browser tutorial of Ruby, and most of what I learned
involves making ("Damn those syntax errors!") go backwards. With ("Damn
those syntax errors!").reverse. And most of the other stuff just floated
around like jelly in space.
Joe Wiltrout
Lloyd Linklater
thought is that you want to climb everest before you learn to walk. You
said that you have more or less no programming experience. You just
can't. You need to learn what kinds of things are going on inside a
computer. It is not a point and click to super gaming stardom.
Once you can write programs that do what you want, then you need to
decide just what kind of game you want? Sci-fi? Fantasy? Big graphics
or text based? etc, etc. These are not small decisions and
professional game designers spend years developing and refining their
ideas.
If you do all this and are still determined, try some form of gaming
that has a lot of the work done for you already. One that comes to mind
is the Quake engine. Several creditable games were written using it.
It is, in short, something that has most of the tough stuff figured out
already. There are other gaming engines, so choose wisely, young
padawan.
When you have chosen a gaming engine, then write in the language that
works best with. That will probably not be Ruby, I am sorry to say.
Ruby does not come to mind first for graphics intensive applications.
If all that does not deter you then I hope that it will point you in the
right direction.
Joe Wiltrout
I figured as much. Considering C++ seems to make most of the games that
I play. But people say learning C++ now would be like controlling the
universe before you could control a small hamster. So, to answer your
questions, I want to make a Fantasy Sky Pirate themed MMORPG with near
unlimited character customization and a game with near unlimited
possiblilities that is always fun because you can always make another
character and follow a different path, join different factions, betray
your captain for a large reward from an mysterious benefactor, pillage,
or even join the Air-Coast Guard, and stop the pirates from being
pirates, etc. I want thousands of weapons, armors, items, etc, and loads
of enchantments, modifacations, and apperence changing things for
weapons, armors, and ships. I want gameplay in 3 locations. Land, Air,
and Sea. Simple walk (or run) about land, doing quests or just
free-roaming, cutting down whatever you want to. Use your professions to
do something for money. Cut down a large tree, cook a large meal at the
local Inn, craft a breastplate for your Captain, etc. On the sea, you
would be in a regular ship. Depending on your rank in your Sea Pirate
crew, you could be doing anything from navigating to swabbing decks to
hoisting main sails. As a member of the Coast Guard, you would be
incharge of taking down the pirates, and either arresting or killing
them. In the Air, on an Airship, you would be pillaging the Sky, either
attacking other pirates, or honest merchant vessels for their goods and
money. Maybe steal a massive load of fill dirt, and not get very much
money, or steal a load of 24 carot gold and get rich. Or, again, join
the Coast Guard. It pays solid wages, and you get to kill a few pirates.
Fun for all. Or you could become a body guard on a merchant ship. Fend
off the pirates! And you get a share of the profits when your merchant
friends get into port and sell their load. Eventually, you could gain
your own ship! Ships would need repairs occasinally, but as the captain
of said ship, you would make enough money to easily cover that and pay
your crew. And have a nice slice of it for yourself (depending on
whether you had a good run that day).
Lloyd Linklater
Making thousands of weapons is a thankless task. When you eventually
get around to that, you will want a few basic weapons
guns: piston, rifle, blunderbus, flintlock, etc
swords: cutlass, longsword, short sword, etc
knives: dagger, stiletto, throwing knife, etc
blunt: sap, club, belaying pin, etc.
etc, etc
Under each weapon, you will have the other parts:
is it usable at range?
plus to hit
plus to damage
special (magical) effects
etc.
Then, you can make a list of items in a database and not have to hand
craft each one. You might write a routine that rates each weapon's
characteristics and randomly generates weapons with a certain value and
only players of some level can properly use a weapon like that.
This is the kind of thing that makes object oriented coding so useful.
Anyway, I wish you well with this.
John Joyce
now, but building games is not as easy as playing them.
Game theory is one thing to read up on,
but as far as programming, you're going to have to learn it. It
doesn't come easy or all at once for most people. It takes practice
and time like anything. There are lots and lots of things to learn.
Don't be discouraged, and don't give up!
Ben Bleything
> Skt wrote:
> > Although i dont know if you'd want to just skip to it without reading
> > the guide a bit first.
>
> Ty. But why do you make a new topic for every post? If you can't find
> the post button, just click post with quote, and delte the qoute.
That's actually an artifact of the forum software. You're actually
using a web interface to a mailing list, here, and ruby-forum has some
bugs. Skt appears to be posting via email. It's all showing up as the
same thread for me, in my mail client.
I'd like to also take this opportunity to throw my two cents in the mix.
I agree completely with the folks who are telling you to slow down and
go one step at a time.
To go from effectively no experience to trying to do graphics
programming in a language without intermediate steps is, frankly,
madness. You need to learn the fundamentals before you can hope to
build a stable graphical game, much less a performant one.
If you're serious about game programming in Ruby, I think you'll find a
number of other people who are interested as well. But you need to do
your homework, as it were, before you dive right in. I'd suggest
starting by converting your game's mechanic into something that can be
played in text format, and building that.
This will give you a great deal of insight into the highs and lows of
your concept, as well as give you a pretty damn good familiarity with
the kinds of low-level Ruby code you'll need to write when you do the
graphical version.
Once that's done and you're happy with it, go back to your original
design and add the graphics layer.
Before any of that, though, you need to learn Ruby. Others have given
you a lot of really good suggestions. _why's guide, the Pine book,
etc. And, like James Gray said elsewhere, you need to get over your
resistance to search engines. Relying on any community to get answers
to questions that are easily findable on Google will result in the
community losing their interest in helping you.
Cheers,
Ben
Ben Bleything
> What do you do with Ruby? I'v heard that programming better graphic
> games like WoW would be hellishly hard. To my friend Matt, this stuff
> seems to come naturally. To me, not so. I read 8 chapters of Why's and
> took the in-browser tutorial of Ruby, and most of what I learned
> involves making ("Damn those syntax errors!") go backwards. With ("Damn
> those syntax errors!").reverse. And most of the other stuff just floated
> around like jelly in space.
If your ambition is to create a game like WoW, then you're barking up
the wrong tree. It's possible in Ruby, sure... but you're not going to
like it.
WoW embeds a language called Lua... it's what is used to write mods.
However, it's not a powerful enough language for the actual game to be
written in.
Having a game that was scriptable in Ruby would be outstanding, and
certainly possible now... but I think it's going to be a long time
before there's a successful game that's written in a langauge that's
higher level than C/C++.
Ben
Joe Wiltrout
You think I haven't done most of this? I currently only have about 10
weapons, and 4 types. Swords (1hand and 2hand, under same catagory),
Guns (pistol and rifle,shotgun,sniper, same catagory. I can't come up
with a general name or the latter set), Ranged (throwing knives,
throwing axes, bows, and I think grappling hooks fall under this
catagory. Just with less range than other weapons, and are useful in
other manners as well.) and Axes. Clubs, also a good idea. But for the
dude who is being a hole about the whole coding thing, I have friends
who CAN code, and very well as a matter of fact. I would not be
surprised if I just was the ideas guy. I'm not a bad artist, but I am no
Piccasso. I can draw and color basic concepts, but when I try to go into
detail, they end up looking stupid. So I could easily become the "Ideas
Guy". Instead, I'm trying to get the coding move along quicker. But at
this rate, you won't be seeing any of my games for about 30 years. Why's
Guide lost me at about chapter 3. The best thing I'v done in Ruby is
make the thingy reconize a sandwich as Ham, Turkey, Cheese. So, could
someone inform me if this is normal to not understand any of this stuff
at all? Because I'm sure the programming team at Blizzard started out
alot better than me. And who knows, If this works out, I might work at
Blizzard. NOT! And as for weapons, im gunna list em.
Sabre: Basic Sword. one-handed. Does relatively low damage alone. Level
Requirement: None.
Katana: Slightly advanced sword. onehanded. Medium-High damage. Has a 2%
boost chance for critical strikes. Level Requirement: 60. Skill
Requirement: Familiar Swords. (max level is 100, ensures good long
gameplay)
Hunting Knife: One Handed. Low Damage. Fast. Piercing Damage. Also used
for Skinning. Level Requirement: none.
Revolver: One Handed Gun, sub-type pistol. Loads 8 shots. Medium reload
time. Medium Damage. 25 yard range. Level Requirement: 40. Skill
Requirement: Journeyman Guns. Dual Wield Capable with Expert Guns Skill.
Sniper Rifle: Two Handed Gun, sub-type Rifle. High Damage. 75 yard
range. Slow Firing Rate. Loads 1 bullet. Medium reload time. Increased
chance of crit 5%. Skill Requirement: Master Guns. Level Requirement:
90.
Shotgun: Medium-High Damage at close range. Two Handed Shotgun. 2%
chance to stun enemy for 2 seconds. 25 yard range. Damage gets lower at
ranges greater than 10 yards. Skill Requirement: Skilled Guns. Level
Requirement: 37. Holds 8 shots. SLOW reload time. Higher skill in Guns
decreses reload time.
Shortbow: Two Handed Bow. Low damage. 30 yard range. Level Requirement:
None.
Hellfire Axe: Legendary Two Hand Battle-Axe. Massive Damage. Medium-Low
Speed. Fire Damage. 5% chance of causing hit foes to burst into flames
for 10 seconds. Skill Requirement: Supreme Axes. Level Requirement: 95.
Only availible through rare drops from high level monsters in long high
level dungeons. Very High Value.
And I feel thats enough for now. And people, I'm looking for HELP. I
don't need more people telling me to "learn the basics", or "stop trying
to run before you can walk", or "For gods sake, use google!". I tried
Google a thousand times. I found Ruby, Python, C, C#, C++, Java, and
loads of tutorials that DIDNT help. I have no interest in making a Text
Adventure, because, for one thing, they aren't any fun! They have no or
bad graphics, no customizability, no nothing! Alls I want is to make a
decent graphic game, with decent gameplay, and atleast some fun. At this
rate, none of thats going ot happen soon. Soon I'm just going to take
the hard road and directly try to learn C++. But for all intents and
purposes, learning Ruby first would be an easier path. But with all the
help I'm getting now, that path has a giant wall on it. And snakes. And
a moat filled with plasma and alligators. And the entirety of the
universe is between me and the wall. And a door with a sign that says
"Stay out if you value your sanity". Because the topic at hand was never
addressed really. The original question was how would I get started
making a game if I had no prior coding experiance?. And I haven't
received much on that subject.
Peter Seebach
>Why's
>Guide lost me at about chapter 3. The best thing I'v done in Ruby is
>make the thingy reconize a sandwich as Ham, Turkey, Cheese. So, could
>someone inform me if this is normal to not understand any of this stuff
>at all?
To put it in perspective, I can program fluently in something like a dozen
programming languages, and I found why's guide utterly impenetrable; in fact,
it put me off Ruby until I got a recommendation that led me to find a book
written in a slightly more conventional style. Different people may have
wildly different learning styles.
But it is fairly normal not to understand anything at all when you are just
starting out in a new language. I liked Chris Pine's guide, which is also
available online, and/or the expanded form which is a paperback book.
>Because I'm sure the programming team at Blizzard started out
>alot better than me.
Well, certainly, by the time they were working there, yeah. :)
-s
Joe Wiltrout
> Seriously, Joe, what you can do is plan all the features of your game
> now, but building games is not as easy as playing them.
this coding stuff. I'v got just about everything planned out for TWO
games. Think of the two ideas like recently killed corpses. Sitting in a
75 degree room. Each one rotting at about the same pace. The rotting
simulates me forgetting stuff and how I was going to do it. Now think of
my Word Documents like chunks of ice. The ice eventually melts, but
preserves the bodies for a time. The melting is me losing the documents,
or having technical problems, etc. Once the corpses are rotted through,
no more game idea, no more game. Ever. So lets just hope I have a hell
of a lot of ice cubes. Maybe even a freezer. Which is typed documents in
weather-proof envalopes in a maxium security foot locker insides a fire
proof box, inside a safety deposit box in Sweden.
> Game theory is one thing to read up on,
> but as far as programming, you're going to have to learn it.
Um, DUH! How am I going to program a 3-d MMORPG without learning how to
program first? Even so, this isn't the language I am going to program
in. Maybe I will just wait a few years until they come up with something
much muc easier. Something where you just tell the computer to do
something, and it does it. No questions asked, no weird strings and
arrays and methods and all that bull.
> It
> doesn't come easy or all at once for most people. It takes practice
> and time like anything.
Heh. Practice. Ya know how most of my friends /practice/ their
programming? By working on their games.
> There are lots and lots of things to learn.
Take ya all night to figure that out? I still don't know what the method
'gets' does! For gods sake, I made irb reconize a sandwich as Ham Turkey
Cheese! Thats the best iv done so far. How exactly am I going to make
the computer make a pirate shoot at another pirate when thats all i can
do? At this rate, my game is going to be called Sandwich=Ham, turkey,
cheese.reverse Adventures.
> Don't be discouraged, and don't give up!
Heh. I'm about to give up right now. I got discouraged the first minute
I started reading Why's. The guy makes learning fun, but by destroying
the learning itself.
Joe Wiltrout
> On 7/13/07, Joe Wiltrout <wiltr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Because the topic at hand was never
>> addressed really. The original question was how would I get started
>> making a game if I had no prior coding experiance?. And I haven't
>> received much on that subject.
>
>
>
> #include <stdio.h>
>
> int main() {
> printf("Hello World!\n");
> return 0;
> }
>
>
> or, if you prefer Ruby:
>
> puts("Hello World!");
>
>
> You're talking to a mailing list full of professional and/or very
> talented
> developers. You really don't think people here have an idea of what it
> takes
> to make something like an MMORPG? Believe me, they do. The advice you
> are
> getting is dead on. Learn how to program first. Then learn how to make
> games. If it was really as easy as you want it to be, don't you think
> everyone would be making MMORPGs?
>
> Matt
How the hell is Hello World going to help me make a game? For gods sake,
no-one in the game is going to be saying Hello World. I might even
censor it because it is so damn annoying. And what exactly am I going to
learn to program? People tell me to learn to program, but they don't say
what to learn how to program? Am I programming a window to turn pink? Am
I programming a website? NO! I'm programming a damn sandwich as Ham
Turkey Cheese, or making something say Hello World. No, not even that.
I'm not even making something say it. I am typing all sorts of texts,
just to make the computer re-type Hello World. All these tutorials and
your useless advice is getting me nowhere. Because I don't understand
this stuff. I asked for help, not lectures about Learn To Program!. And
last time I checked, a great many people made MMORPGs. Because ya know
what? Blizzard Entertainment has over 100 people coding WoW at any given
time, in any given place.
Joe Wiltrout
No. Not even by the time they were working there. Everyone of em
certainly understood this shit much better than I do. Or they would have
given up too. And what languages does Chris Pines book teach? Because
I'v decided to screw Ruby, because it hasnt helped at all. And if
everyone is so professional and talented, why can't they give me
straight forward help? You guys are like Jedi or bad teachers. Either be
really vague, or kick me in the ass and tell me to do something else.
>
> -s
Peter Seebach
>How the hell is Hello World going to help me make a game?
How does learning to build a simple stool help someone build a house?
You learn *skills*. The skills allow you to understand how things work
better and give you a broader range of things you can combine to make the
thing you ultimately want.
>I'm not even making something say it. I am typing all sorts of texts,
>just to make the computer re-type Hello World. All these tutorials and
>your useless advice is getting me nowhere. Because I don't understand
>this stuff. I asked for help, not lectures about Learn To Program!
Well, consider for a moment the possibility that we think that lectures
about how to "learn to program" are, in fact, helpful to you.
I can just see you with Mapquest. "I'm sick of this crap about city streets.
I want to get from my house to Detroit, and I want to do it ALL on the freeway.
None of this "entrance ramp" crap!"
Can you drive? Did you start out on the freeway?
-s
Joe Wiltrout
> On Jul 13, 2007, at 11:10 AM, James Edward Gray II wrote:
>
>>>>>
>>> thread? If I
>>> googled PAWS, I'm likely to get thousands of websites, from adoption
>>> centers for abandoned fuzzy animals to strip clubs.
>>
>> We need to get you past this Google fear my friend. Google python
>> PAWS and it's the top hit.
>>
>> James Edward Gray II
>>
> Indeed, pump up your Google-fu!
> Never be afraid to google an entire sentence or question.
> But in general, multiple keywords will get you good hits usually.
I will use my google skills now, TO FIND BETTER HELP. All of these tips
were agravating, annoying, useless, telling me what I did wrong, telling
me to do stupid stuff like that hellish Hello World crap, or all of the
above. Not to mention, im going straight to dam C++. I have a better
chance if I tackle the lion with my sword and shield rather than wait
until the lion is hungry and attack it with the knoledge how to kill a
baby lion. If you don't get the anology, your not as smart as you think
you are.
Craig Johnson
Calm down #1----you are asking for people's help--they are actually offering
good advice---but you are not seeing it...
Let me lay it out...
Programming takes work--to learn how the tools work, how the languages work,
what kinds of models and data structures work---all that stuff.....
And you learn that stuff by doing those silly little exercises...lots of
them....do that for a few weeks...then pick a SMALL real problem and solve
it yourself---and you'll rediscover how much you Don't know...
Then you go figure that out, and pick another one....
And you do that for years---and you learn to build games.
OK?
IF, on the other hand, you think you are special and it should be easier for
you or that people here owe you their time to guide you..then either:
A) YOU REALLY DO NEED SERIOUS HELP (but not the kind you think)
or
B) You can hire people to help you...find someone to tutor you---for money
or some other coin you can agree on....
but...
Don't be such a butt-head about it---people are telling you straight,
problem is you just don't like the answers..
tough. Welcome to life.
:)
Peter Seebach
>No. Not even by the time they were working there. Everyone of em
>certainly understood this shit much better than I do.
I certainly didn't. :)
>Or they would have given up too.
Maybe not.
>And what languages does Chris Pines book teach? Because
>I'v decided to screw Ruby, because it hasnt helped at all. And if
>everyone is so professional and talented, why can't they give me
>straight forward help? You guys are like Jedi or bad teachers. Either be
>really vague, or kick me in the ass and tell me to do something else.
Chris's book teaches Ruby, too. If you want to try a different language,
King's "C Programming: A Modern Approach" is excellent, although ironically,
it's now a bit out of date (a new revision should be along soonish).
The thing is, you want to make a big program, but you seem unwilling to learn
the skills that make for building a big program. Rome, as they say, wasn't
built in a day. I spent most of a decade on the ISO C standards committee,
and to this day, people with a number of calendar years of experience on me will
ask me questions about C. That doesn't mean I was born knowing C; it means
I spent months and months doing stupid little test programs -- not far from
"hello, world" -- and using them as a way to learn about how things worked.
-s
Craig Johnson
Hire someone to make the game for you now---maybe he comes
cheap because you share ownership---and you learn while you both do...
That lets you start---let's your idea get legs...and you learn too...
cj:)
-----Original Message-----
From: list-...@example.com [mailto:list-...@example.com] On Behalf Of
Joe Wiltrout
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 7:56 PM
To: ruby-talk ML
Subject: Re: I need serious help!
MenTaLguY
> Alls I want is to make a decent graphic game, with decent gameplay,
> and atleast some fun.
Assuming you mean 3d graphics, that's actually about the hardest types
of programming projects to do. It's not only an issue of basic
programming, but you'll need to worry about advanced topics like
concurrency, as well as needing knowledge of a wide range of other
disciplines like:
- computational geometry for rendering and world simulation
- signal processing for visual effects and audio
- drawing and design skills for your 2d visual assets
(half of graphics is art direction)
- 3d modeling for your 3d assets
There _are_, thankfully, libraries to handle much of the coding aspects
of these, but you'll still need to understand the principles to be able
to use the libraries effectively.
> At this rate, none of thats going ot happen soon. Soon I'm just going to take
> the hard road and directly try to learn C++. But for all intents and
> purposes, learning Ruby first would be an easier path.
Starting from scratch, it takes most people about ten years to become a
solid programmer. The best way to approach the process is to get more or
less comfortable in one programming language/environment, and then learn
several more which are as different as possible from each other. Find
modest, but fun, projects to do to keep you motivated: things that you
want or need to do, write programs to do them for you.
I would not recommend C++ as a first language, though you will have
to learn it eventually. There are a lot of side issues in it that get
in the way of just programming, and it's a truly massive language. I
picked up C++ 15 years ago, and I'm still finding new, weird features
in the language today.
> The original question was how would I get started making a game if I
> had no prior coding experiance?. And I haven't received much on that subject.
Use a series of simpler projects to build your skills to the point
where you can tackle the "real" game. That was one of the reasons the text
adventure was suggested -- it'll build a lot of the skills you'll need
to write the core game logic for the 3d game.
My first projects involved taking example programs and incrementally
modifying them to do new things. You may have success doing something
similar (the source code for many libraries comes with example programs).
-mental
James Edward Gray II
> I have no interest in making a Text
> Adventure, because, for one thing, they aren't any fun! They have
> no or
> bad graphics, no customizability, no nothing!
Every time you say that a smurf dies in some MUD. :(
I must be getting very old.
James Edward Gray II
Joe Wiltrout
>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>Guide lost me at about chapter 3. The best thing I'v done
>> >>better than me.
>> vague, or kick me in the ass and tell me to do something else.
>> >
>> > -s
>>
>>
>> --
>> Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
>>
>
>
>
> That's made worse by the fact that no matter how many arguments are
> presented to you, you refuse to see it as such.
>
> Maybe - and I'm just inviting you to do this, not telling you to do this
> -
> you might want to consider the possibility that the people you received
> advice from were not bad teachers, but that you are a bad student.
>
> Felix
Your right. I don't see any good advice. Because people aren't giving me
advice. They are telling me to code Hello World for years and years.
Problem is, how does that help? It doesn't. It doesn't code in a weapon,
it doesn't make a boat move, it doesn't do anything at all. It makes
your computer re-print Hello World. I'v done the Hello World thing 60
times. I counted. And guess what? Im nowhere closer to making a game.
And as for the Stool building to House building, there's a great
difference between building stools and building houses. I built several
stools, chairs, tables, chests, and boxes. Just wood, nails, hammer, and
finish. And for some things, hinges, locks, and cushions. But houses
have electric things to install, tiling, carpet, cieling fans, etc to
put in. The methods are completely different. And I can't say that any
person on this thread was actually a "teacher" because nobody taught me
anything. They told me to learn things. A teacher doesn't say Go buy
this book and read it, then write 2+5
100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
times and you will learn how to multiply. A teacher would explain how
you get the answer to 2+5. Then the teacher would explain how you apply
the same principles to multiplying, then you would learn algebra,
physics, calculus, etc. And how do you know Rome wasn't built in a day?
For all you know, it could have been built in 10 seconds flat. No one
can prove anything. It's a fact.
Joe Wiltrout
> I'd like to also take this opportunity to throw my two cents in the mix.
> I agree completely with the folks who are telling you to slow down and
> go one step at a time.
>
> To go from effectively no experience to trying to do graphics
> programming in a language without intermediate steps is, frankly,
> madness. You need to learn the fundamentals before you can hope to
> build a stable graphical game, much less a performant one.
>
> If you're serious about game programming in Ruby, I think you'll find a
> number of other people who are interested as well. But you need to do
> your homework, as it were, before you dive right in. I'd suggest
> starting by converting your game's mechanic into something that can be
> played in text format, and building that.
>
> This will give you a great deal of insight into the highs and lows of
> your concept, as well as give you a pretty damn good familiarity with
> the kinds of low-level Ruby code you'll need to write when you do the
> graphical version.
>
> Once that's done and you're happy with it, go back to your original
> design and add the graphics layer.
> Cheers,
> Ben
I don't even get how to make anything work in Ruby. It all looks lke
gibberish. If I don't understand how Hello World thing works, how is it
suposed to help me learn how to make 3-d graphics and kick ass gameplay?
Gregory Brown
> person on this thread was actually a "teacher" because nobody taught me
> anything. They told me to learn things. A teacher doesn't say Go buy
> this book and read it, then write 2+5
Those who expect to be "taught', in my opinion, will never learn.
John Joyce
Kid, you're going to have a hard time finding better help.
There is no magic that will make you a programmer over night.
The Ruby-Talk list is one of the most beginner friendly places you
will find.
Most others will tell you RTFM.
If you can manage some Ruby scripting, you'll be able to transfer the
skills you learn to other scripting languages.
There are more than a few game-making engines out there that take
most of the hard programming out of the way and leave you with
scripting and design.
But with your attitude, you will not get much.
We are laying it on you straight.
Graphical games, particularly the 3D variety are pretty complex
programs that would take a single person years to develop.
Lots of programmers were (and are) gamers and that's often how they
got into programming.
You can be a game designer too. If you have lots of good ideas
planned out, then get together with a programmer and a graphics
person. The age of the one-man game company is pretty far gone. The
last classic I know of that was a one man endeavor RPG was Ultima.
More than that takes more people.
Bill Kelly
>
> How the hell is Hello World going to help me make a game? For gods sake,
> no-one in the game is going to be saying Hello World. I might even
> censor it because it is so damn annoying. And what exactly am I going to
> learn to program? People tell me to learn to program, but they don't say
> what to learn how to program? Am I programming a window to turn pink? Am
> I programming a website? NO! I'm programming a damn sandwich as Ham
> Turkey Cheese, or making something say Hello World. No, not even that.
> I'm not even making something say it. I am typing all sorts of texts,
> just to make the computer re-type Hello World. All these tutorials and
> your useless advice is getting me nowhere. Because I don't understand
> this stuff.
Joe,
Did you get my post yesterday about the Ruby Gosu 2D game library?
(Note to ruby-talk folk: it was mail count #259234 ... only it doesn't seem
to exist in the ruby-talk archive... Strange.)
I'll repost it here in case it didn't make it to the list somehow:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Hey yall experienced coders and programmer dudes. I wanna make an MMORPG
> type game, but I have no programming experiance whatsoever. Someone told
> me this was the best language to start learning with. So here I am,
> confused about everything except blog making because of that "15 minute"
> tutorial which turned out to take an hour+ for me. So I need someone to
> tell me how to get started making even a basic game. Like 2d, horrible
> graphics, the worst they can get. Like taking a game for 4 year olds,
> then taking a step back. So simple, not even I want to play it. How
> would one get started making any kind of game? And if anyone could
> supply me with information for my sub-childrens game, that be nice too.
One 2D game library with Ruby bindings is gosu:
http://code.google.com/p/gosu/
Here's a post from Florian Gross about a game written in Ruby / Gosu,
running on Win32 / OS X / Linux:
http://blade.nagaokaut.ac.jp/cgi-bin/scat.rb/ruby/ruby-talk/187832
Screenshot: http://flgr.0x42.net/gdc72h-05/final.jpg
Also, here are some game-related ruby quizzes that might be apropos:
http://www.rubyquiz.com/quiz80.html Dungeon Generation
Two different solutions were submitted for doing 2D text based
dungeon generation.
http://www.rubyquiz.com/quiz49.html Lisp Game
Nineteen solutions were submitted for implementing a text adventure
game in ruby. (Porting a Lisp game to Ruby.)
You will be able to look at the ruby source code for all of the above.
Hope this helps,
Bill
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Note: I was a professional game developer from 1989 to 1998 and I've done
2D games and 3D games on several platforms.
I have not personally used the Gosu library, but it looks nice.
For example, here is a tutorial/example page:
http://code.google.com/p/gosu/wiki/RubyTutorial
Joe, if you want to see two pirates shooting at each other, and you have
the graphics already, the examples on that tutorial page should pretty much
get you there. With sounds, even.
Hope this helps,
Bill
Peter Seebach
>I will use my google skills now, TO FIND BETTER HELP. All of these tips
>were agravating, annoying, useless, telling me what I did wrong, telling
>me to do stupid stuff like that hellish Hello World crap, or all of the
>above. Not to mention, im going straight to dam C++. I have a better
>chance if I tackle the lion with my sword and shield rather than wait
>until the lion is hungry and attack it with the knoledge how to kill a
>baby lion. If you don't get the anology, your not as smart as you think
>you are.
It's a very bad analogy for the reality. You're telling people who regularly
take out elephants with combat knives how to hunt.
I think the best analogy would be that, since you're finding crawling
unacceptably slow, you've decided to go straight to the skateboard. Good
luck with that.
-s
Craig Johnson
You are on a ruby language help forum.
these people know what they are talking about.
what is it about your "wisdom" that makes you think you are right, and
they are wrong. I suspect you're what 18-22? maybe younger?
Go do the hello worlds. do 100 other little things to learn how the language
works...
What you are saying is "I want to Write the best work of literature in a
Serbo-Croation, a language I don't know" ... people are saying go learn the
language, go use it for a while...and you are saying "You people are stupid
because you can't tell me how to write in another language without having to
spend time doing work to become proficient"
(that thing in the matrix--about learning to fly helicopters---that was in a
sim man---it wasn't real....hello....)
GUESS WHAT JOE---IT'S WORK...
So----you can decide:
A) We dumb-arse's don't know what we're talking about, and you in your
wisdom know better...and move on.
B) You can decide that you really would rather go back to using wood.
C) You can go back to playing and stop having to possible think or work
OR
D) BUCKLE DOWN, DO THE WORK, LEARN THE PROCESS....
How many books about game design have you even skimmed? or on the net?
How about classes for Game design?
I appreciate the comic relief you've provided
I am amused by your angst that life is so hard on you
My pity wells up that the world is so unfair that one so wise as you can't
know all things in an instant....we poor fools had to go learn the "hard
way"...I know that's passe' with your ilk, but---tough dude.
Get real
-----Original Message-----
From: list-...@example.com [mailto:list-...@example.com] On Behalf Of
Joe Wiltrout
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 8:27 PM
To: ruby-talk ML
Subject: Re: I need serious help!
Peter Seebach
>Your right. I don't see any good advice. Because people aren't giving me
>advice. They are telling me to code Hello World for years and years.
No, they aren't. They're telling you to start with simple stuff and
build to big stuff.
>Problem is, how does that help? It doesn't.
How would you know? You haven't tried it.
>It doesn't code in a weapon,
>it doesn't make a boat move, it doesn't do anything at all. It makes
>your computer re-print Hello World. I'v done the Hello World thing 60
>times. I counted. And guess what? Im nowhere closer to making a game.
Maybe instead of doing the exact same thing 60 times, you should be
making changes and trying to understand them.
>And as for the Stool building to House building, there's a great
>difference between building stools and building houses. I built several
>stools, chairs, tables, chests, and boxes. Just wood, nails, hammer, and
>finish. And for some things, hinges, locks, and cushions. But houses
>have electric things to install, tiling, carpet, cieling fans, etc to
>put in. The methods are completely different.
Yes, but if you haven't learned the basic components and skills, you
can't even BEGIN to do the rest of the house stuff; you'll get to the
point of needing two pieces of wood to stick together, and you'll have
no clue how to make it work or match your plan.
>And I can't say that any
>person on this thread was actually a "teacher" because nobody taught me
>anything. They told me to learn things. A teacher doesn't say Go buy
>this book and read it, then write 2+5
>100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
>times and you will learn how to multiply. A teacher would explain how
>you get the answer to 2+5.
Yup. But since you're not offering enough money to buy days of our time,
we're offering to coach you, rather than teaching you.
>Then the teacher would explain how you apply
>the same principles to multiplying, then you would learn algebra,
>physics, calculus, etc. And how do you know Rome wasn't built in a day?
>For all you know, it could have been built in 10 seconds flat. No one
>can prove anything. It's a fact.
Well, actually, we have excellent information on how Rome was built. Learn
about archeology. :)
Seriously, I've seen people who are off the top ends of any known test of
"intelligence" learn to program, and they had to do it the same way we're
suggesting. It's just part of how learning happens; until you understand
the little bits, you can't do a good job putting them together.
-s
Peter Seebach
>I don't even get how to make anything work in Ruby. It all looks lke
>gibberish. If I don't understand how Hello World thing works, how is it
>suposed to help me learn how to make 3-d graphics and kick ass gameplay?
It's not.
You are going to have to understand it. If you don't understand how Hello
World works, you also don't understand all the other stuff -- or have even the
basics you'd need to learn enough to understand them.
So you start with something small, and learn that. And once you DO understand
it, you can make progress.
-s
MenTaLguY
> And how do you know Rome wasn't built in a day? For all you know, it could
> have been built in 10 seconds flat. No one can prove anything. It's a fact.
If you can't (at least informally) prove a logical proposition, you've
got no hope as a programmer.
-mental
Todd Benson
Dude, learning how to program a game -- a large one at that -- doesn't
just drop into your lap like some golden egg; it doesn't sprinkle down
from the heavens like some magical faerie dust. You asked for help.
Well, most of whom you seem to be calling 'inept' teachers are aces in
the field, and they expect you to meet them half way. That's how you
learn. Comprende?
You're obviously a creative person. I'm sure you can figure out how
to use Ruby or any other language to do what you want if you give it
some time.
Todd
Peter Seebach
Strictly speaking, our ability to prove the claim that Rome wasn't built in
a day is contingent on certain assumptions about the consistency of physical
laws, etcetera, etcetera.
Sadly, in this fallen world, we must make a number of assumptions. That is,
assuming that there's a world. And assuming that we want to reach conclusions.
No one has ever proven to my satisfaction that we ought to reach conclusions.
-s
Gregory Brown
> Joe, don't be impatient and ignorant--it's just annoying to read.
> You are on a ruby language help forum.
> these people know what they are talking about.
>
> what is it about your "wisdom" that makes you think you are right, and
> they are wrong. I suspect you're what 18-22? maybe younger?
Age doesn't mean anything, I generally dislike when people bring it up
as a measure of skill or wisdom. For the record, I am 21, and I look
up to a few well known Rubyists that are 16-18yrs old. :)
Joe is actually just acting like a classic jerk, it has nothing to do with age.
Chris Carter
Over these last two days, some of the best programmers I know have
given you some great advice. I am 15, I know what it is like to want
to learn how to make a game in a day. let me tell you, It's not
possible. You need to learn how to program first. The tutorials may
all start with Hello, World, but then you aren't bothering to finish
one. They get complex, they teach you the structures you need to know
eventually. But you must start small. One you know those basic
theories, you can move on to more complex game theories. After that
you can start 3d programming. It will take you years. C++ will be
just as bad, it's even lower level. Work through Pine's book, or
_why's. Then you can try making a text adventure. You might know
enough for that. Then you can start learning mroe advanced things,
like ruby-gosu or SDL. It will take time, it will be tedious, it will
suck. You are going to have to deal with it.
Want help writing a MMORPG. You will need a protocol. Creating one
is pretty easy with ragel (http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~thurston/ragel/,
a state machine compiler) and EventMachine
(http://rubyforge.org/projects/eventmachine, an evented socket
server). You will need a graphics engine (http://www.libsdl.org/,
SDL). Probably a database (http://www.postgresql.org/) and a ton of
code, possibly in multiple languages (Ruby, C, Lua). Once you
understand what each of these components does, and why you might need
them, and how they work, you can move on to a real game.
Good Luck. If you have a real code-based question, don't hesitate to
ask the list. But google around first.
--
Chris Carter
concentrationstudios.com
brynmawrcs.com
Peter Seebach
s:
>Age doesn't mean anything, I generally dislike when people bring it up
>as a measure of skill or wisdom. For the record, I am 21, and I look
>up to a few well known Rubyists that are 16-18yrs old. :)
>Joe is actually just acting like a classic jerk, it has nothing to do with age.
Age isn't proof of anything, but the correlation is strong enough to be
noticable. I agree, though, that I know people in their thirties and forties
who are just like that.
-s
Gregory Brown
Oh give me a break. Generalizations like that are similar to the ones
that say we should do ethnic profiling at airports.
Bill Kelly
From: "Chris Carter" <cdca...@gmail.com>
>
> Over these last two days, some of the best programmers I know have
> given you some great advice. I am 15, I know what it is like to want
> to learn how to make a game in a day. let me tell you, It's not
> possible. You need to learn how to program first. The tutorials may
> all start with Hello, World, but then you aren't bothering to finish
> one. They get complex, they teach you the structures you need to know
> eventually. But you must start small. One you know those basic
> theories, you can move on to more complex game theories. After that
> you can start 3d programming. It will take you years. C++ will be
> just as bad, it's even lower level. Work through Pine's book, or
> _why's. Then you can try making a text adventure. You might know
> enough for that. Then you can start learning mroe advanced things,
> like ruby-gosu or SDL. It will take time, it will be tedious, it will
> suck. You are going to have to deal with it.
Hi Chris,
Although I agree in general and in principle with everything
you've said above, I wondered from Joe's frustrated comments
that he might benefit from actually seeing visual results on
screen ASAP.
To that end, I figured, with probably 5 to 10 lines of ruby
code in a framework like Gosu, he could have a couple of
pirate sprites bouncing around the screen.
Maybe actually seeing these few lines of code produce a
visual result he can connect with as a concrete step toward
his goal, might get him past the "what is Hello World good
for" block.
Anyway, I may totally be wrong. But that was my reasoning
for posting the Gosu links.
Regards,
Bill
Peter Seebach
s:
>Oh give me a break. Generalizations like that are similar to the ones
>that say we should do ethnic profiling at airports.
And if Hitler hadn't practiced gun control, there wouldn't have been so
many abortions in Nazi Germany!
:p
-s
(will escalate for food)
Gregory Brown
> Although I agree in general and in principle with everything
> you've said above, I wondered from Joe's frustrated comments
> that he might benefit from actually seeing visual results on
> screen ASAP.
I'm totally out of the loop with the gaming community, but you're
probably right on this. Instead of trying to go from the ground up, I
wonder if a good approach would be to find a highly scriptable game
with a friendly modding community.
This seems to me like it'd let someone get their feet wet without
knowing a ton of theory, and work with powerful engines. I've never
actually built non-trivial mods before though, so I'm not sure if
that's good advice or not.
Gregory Brown
Heh. I guess that by USENET culture, we've met the limits of
escalation now that Hitler has been mentioned. Ah... what a joy.
By the way, I hope that my previous comment was taken as
tounge-in-cheek. I'm not equating you to the War on Terr. :)
Peter Seebach
s:
>I'm totally out of the loop with the gaming community, but you're
>probably right on this. Instead of trying to go from the ground up, I
>wonder if a good approach would be to find a highly scriptable game
>with a friendly modding community.
>
>This seems to me like it'd let someone get their feet wet without
>knowing a ton of theory, and work with powerful engines. I've never
>actually built non-trivial mods before though, so I'm not sure if
>that's good advice or not.
If you wanna script games, learn Lua. It's used in:
Baldur's Gate (I and II)
Neverwinter Nights
Warhammer 40K: Dawn of War
Angband
World of Warcraft
.. and probably many, many, others. Those are just the ones where I've
actually written Lua programs.
-s
Peter Seebach
s:
>Heh. I guess that by USENET culture, we've met the limits of
>escalation now that Hitler has been mentioned. Ah... what a joy.
You can escalate much further these days; see Quirk's Exception and
Seebach's Meta-exception.
>By the way, I hope that my previous comment was taken as
>tounge-in-cheek. I'm not equating you to the War on Terr. :)
Actually, I had no idea. I am utterly blind to peoples' tone.
-s
Gregory Brown
> s:
> >Heh. I guess that by USENET culture, we've met the limits of
> >escalation now that Hitler has been mentioned. Ah... what a joy.
>
> You can escalate much further these days; see Quirk's Exception and
> Seebach's Meta-exception.
The question is not a matter of loss of relevance, because we lost
that a while ago. It's more of, how can we create more tension
without being unoriginal at this point?
Peter Seebach
s:
>The question is not a matter of loss of relevance, because we lost
>that a while ago. It's more of, how can we create more tension
>without being unoriginal at this point?
Well, it'd help if this weren't a discussion group for the most
POINTLESS language ever. <-- too subtle, you think?
-s
Peña, Botp
# One 2D game library with Ruby bindings is gosu:
# http://code.google.com/p/gosu/
#
# Here's a post from Florian Gross about a game written in Ruby / Gosu,
# running on Win32 / OS X / Linux:
# http://blade.nagaokaut.ac.jp/cgi-bin/scat.rb/ruby/ruby-talk/187832
#
# Screenshot: http://flgr.0x42.net/gdc72h-05/final.jpg
#
#
# Also, here are some game-related ruby quizzes that might be apropos:
#
# http://www.rubyquiz.com/quiz80.html Dungeon Generation
#
# Two different solutions were submitted for doing 2D text based
# dungeon generation.
#
#
# http://www.rubyquiz.com/quiz49.html Lisp Game
#
# Nineteen solutions were submitted for implementing a text adventure
# game in ruby. (Porting a Lisp game to Ruby.)
#
# You will be able to look at the ruby source code for all of the above.
also,
http://gpwiki.org/
http://rrobots.rubyforge.org/.
ruby robots is one of my favorites since
a. they animate and "think on their own"!
b. it emphasizes that sw drives robots
c. my kids love it (maybe because of "a. the animation", "b. they do not need screw drivers to 'create/move/destroy' things.."
d. our future project is to merge rrobots with lego robots. pls do not ask me yet. sw and hw is still vaporware (i haven't bought a lego robot yet :)) yes,yes, the legorobots will have laser guns, and yes, they will transform :))
Chad Perrin
> Chad Perrin wrote:
> > On Fri, Jul 13, 2007 at 12:40:54PM +0900, Joe Wiltrout wrote:
> >> Skt wrote:
> >> > Dont try to tackle more than one at a time (my problem) thats for sure.
> >>
> >> Great idea. My first problem is I need to know if coding games is
> >> possible in Ruby. According to Why's, atleast Text Based Games are
> >> possible. Problem solved. Next problem, I need to learn Ruby. Now im
> >> gunna read thru some of Why's.
> >
> > You can create just about any piece of software you like with Ruby.
> > Ruby
> > is better suited for some things than others, however. For instance,
> > writing an operating system in Ruby might be a bit challenging
> > (especially since I'm not sure how practical it is to embed a Ruby
> > interpreter in your bootloader).
> >
> > So . . . yes, you absolutely can write games in Ruby. I'm not a game
> > programmer myself, however, so it's a little outside my range of
> > expertise.
>
> What do you do with Ruby? I'v heard that programming better graphic
> games like WoW would be hellishly hard. To my friend Matt, this stuff
> seems to come naturally. To me, not so. I read 8 chapters of Why's and
> took the in-browser tutorial of Ruby, and most of what I learned
> involves making ("Damn those syntax errors!") go backwards. With ("Damn
> those syntax errors!").reverse. And most of the other stuff just floated
> around like jelly in space.
Me, personally? Glorified shell scripting, data munging, and web
development, mostly. I'm thinking about hacking together some minimal
GUI configuration tools using something like the Glade library. The
occasional "stupid programmer trick" for fun is also amongst the things I
do. I'm probably forgetting three or four more things I do with Ruby,
but at the moment the sysadmin scripts and web development work is taking
up more of my programming time than anything else.
Writing something like WoW from scratch would indeed be a herculean task.
There are some libraries for various languages that eliminate a lot of
the more complex work, but that requires a fair bit of research to choose
your libraries well and learn their APIs.
--
CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
Patrick J. LoPresti: "Emacs has been replaced by a shell script which 1)
Generates a syslog message at level LOG_EMERG; 2) reduces the user's disk
quota by 100K; and 3) RUNS ED!!!!!!"
Peter Seebach
>Me, personally? Glorified shell scripting, data munging, and web
>development, mostly. I'm thinking about hacking together some minimal
>GUI configuration tools using something like the Glade library. The
>occasional "stupid programmer trick" for fun is also amongst the things I
>do. I'm probably forgetting three or four more things I do with Ruby,
>but at the moment the sysadmin scripts and web development work is taking
>up more of my programming time than anything else.
As an example from my own experience, I do weekly summaries of a mailing
list I'm on. I wrote a Ruby CGI script to do most of the repetitive
parts for me, so I just browse through writing up annotations and making
sure subject line drift is managed cleanly. (Harder than it sounded at
first.) It took maybe three-four hours to get the script working well
enough to meet my needs, and it saves me about an hour a week...
I also used Ruby to write a program to generate suitably-arcane passwords
and remember which sites it generated passwords for. Nothing fancy. Mostly
just an excuse to mess around a bit with Ruby's string handling.
>Writing something like WoW from scratch would indeed be a herculean task.
>There are some libraries for various languages that eliminate a lot of
>the more complex work, but that requires a fair bit of research to choose
>your libraries well and learn their APIs.
Ruby would not be my first choice for the bulk of the game, just because
that's a task that really DOES need the performance of a high-end system,
and even a factor of two slowdown might not be acceptable.
It'd be interesting to compare with Lua for the in-game GUI engine.
-s
Sharon Phillips
> supply me with information for my sub-childrens game, that be nice
> too.
Joe,
Seems you've been given a bit of a run around. "Hello World" bah!
Look, if you're still around send me an email, either via the group
or personally, and I'll help you build yourself a game.
To the rest of you mob, normally you're fantastic, but here you've
got a young guy full of enthusiasm and ideas and raring to go and you
tell him to google or print Hello World. C'mon, what more could you
ask of him. His ideas seem good too.
Cheers,
Dave
Peter Seebach
>To the rest of you mob, normally you're fantastic, but here you've
>got a young guy full of enthusiasm and ideas and raring to go and you
>tell him to google or print Hello World.
Well, yeah.
There's a very good reason for this: It *works*. It allows you to make
a good game. It takes a while, but, well, that's the way crafts are; it
takes a while.
>C'mon, what more could you ask of him.
I was thinking to ask for fewer insults.
-s
Trevor Squires
take a look below for my comments, plus something I found that you
might be interested in.
On 13-Jul-07, at 7:27 PM, Joe Wiltrout wrote:
> Your right. I don't see any good advice. Because people aren't
> giving me
> advice. They are telling me to code Hello World for years and years.
> Problem is, how does that help? It doesn't. It doesn't code in a
> weapon,
> it doesn't make a boat move, it doesn't do anything at all. It makes
> your computer re-print Hello World. I'v done the Hello World thing 60
>
Ever see "The Karate Kid"? Get it out on DVD if you haven't (not any
of the sequels, the original). You'll think it sucks, but that's okay.
Once you've seen it, repeat this phrase: wax on, wax off
Because that's why you're being told all this 'useless' stuff. A
programmer basically solves and endless stream of little puzzles and
you need to know how to solve the easy puzzles before you have any
hope of solving the harder ones.
It's totally understandable for you to be frustrated with this advice
- you don't currently understand enough about programming to see the
value in the advice you're being given. One day you *will*
understand and I assure you that you too, will dispense that very
same advice to others. Because it's actually good advice.
But right now I'm going to give you slightly different advice:
Don't learn to program games by starting with a general purpose
programming language. Start with a language and/or framework that is
specifically geared up for teaching programming *through* writing games.
With that in mind, I searched around google for you and came up with
this:
http://www.kidsprogramminglanguage.com/ - Don't be put off by 'kids'
in the title. You want to write a game. It looks like this language/
environment will start you on that path.
By the time you outgrow that language you'll understand enough about
programming to hit the ground running when learning other (perhaps
more 'powerful') programming languages.
But a word of warning - you're *always* going to be confused by new
languages to some degree. I've been doing this 20 years and just
last week I was stumped by one of the first examples in a book about
a new language I'm learning (erlang):
sum([H|T]) -> H + sum(T);
sum([]) -> 0.
"Oh my god! Won't that blow the stack?" - well, I *think* it's okay
because of something called 'tail-recursion' - but like you, I don't
know what I don't know.
It's a wild ride, and totally worth it.
Good luck,
Trevor
Morton Goldberg
> On Jul 13, 2007, at 8:35 PM, Joe Wiltrout wrote:
>
>> I have no interest in making a Text
>> Adventure, because, for one thing, they aren't any fun! They have
>> no or
>> bad graphics, no customizability, no nothing!
>
> Every time you say that a smurf dies in some MUD. :(
>
> I must be getting very old.
Not really. At least not from my POV.
Rocket science is supposed to make for difficult programming. Well, I
worked on rocket science software way back when people were actually
going to the moon. The programs we wrote were actually rather simple
by today's standards. What then took me three months to get running
can be knocked out in a few hours with Mathematica today. And with
the new Mathematica 6, a program developed in those few hours can
display its calculations with beautiful, fully-interactive, 3D graphics.
My point: software for developing software has come a long way since
1970. I don't know zip about MMORPGs, but is someone selling a
Mathematica-level environment for developing them? I think that's
what the OP is looking for.
Regards, Morton
Sharon Phillips
On 14/07/2007, at 3:31 PM, Peter Seebach wrote:
> In message <DBB434AC-0E86-4545...@yahoo.co.uk>,
> Sharon Phillips writes:
>> To the rest of you mob, normally you're fantastic, but here you've
>> got a young guy full of enthusiasm and ideas and raring to go and you
>> tell him to google or print Hello World.
>
> Well, yeah.
>
> There's a very good reason for this: It *works*.
Yes, it works. But it's not the only way that works.
Some people like to take things slowly and methodically, others like
to dive right in.
Sometimes you've got to get a taste for what's possible, for the
excitement of taking your ideas and turning them into reality.
One of the best things about being young is that you don't know
what's impossible. That's why some of the most brilliant things are
made by young people - they didn't know it couldn't be done.
> It allows you to make a good game. It takes a while, but, well,
> that's the way crafts are; it
> takes a while.
Did you ever have 'a while' when you were Joe's age?
Not trying to offend anyone here, just that (currently) there's over
ninety comments in this thread; half of them are Joe's, and the other
half are telling him how it's all too hard.
..
Well, that's the end of my rant. I'll try to stay away from my
voicing my opinion and just pitch in to help now.
Cheers,
Dave
Chad Perrin
Those assumptions are part of informally proving a logical proposition.
Watch:
1. Assuming A, and
2. Assuming B, then
3. A + B imply C
4. C implies D
5. Therefore, D.
--
CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
Kent Beck: "I always knew that one day Smalltalk would replace Java. I
just didn't know it would be called Ruby."
Peter Seebach
>Yes, it works. But it's not the only way that works.
>Some people like to take things slowly and methodically, others like
>to dive right in.
Yup. I'm a "dive right in" person, myself.
>Sometimes you've got to get a taste for what's possible, for the
>excitement of taking your ideas and turning them into reality.
>One of the best things about being young is that you don't know
>what's impossible. That's why some of the most brilliant things are
>made by young people - they didn't know it couldn't be done.
Oh, I've done that. I learned C by reading the source code to hack. No
one told me you couldn't do that. I also used the source to figure out
how to understand the table in the binary containing all the monster
statistics, so I could make a modified version that was substantially
harder than regular hack. (I didn't have a compiler, and the version
I was playing was the DOS version, and I only had UNIX source.)
>> It allows you to make a good game. It takes a while, but, well,
>> that's the way crafts are; it
>> takes a while.
>Did you ever have 'a while' when you were Joe's age?
I don't know how old Joe is. When I was in my mid-teens, I read the
source code for hack, several times, pretty much cover to cover. It
took a summer. At the end of that summer, I still couldn't write C,
but I had a basic familiarity with the syntax. When I was younger,
I did things like modify the code segments for Mac games (or, some
years earlier, CP/M games)... But in every case, I had to pick a simple
task to work through first. It seems to be moderately inherent
to the task.
>Not trying to offend anyone here, just that (currently) there's over
>ninety comments in this thread; half of them are Joe's, and the other
>half are telling him how it's all too hard.
Not that it's too hard, just that he gives every sign of trying to find
a way to not do the hard stuff, and I don't think that'll work.
-s
Chad Perrin
>
> Heh. Practice. Ya know how most of my friends /practice/ their
> programming? By working on their games.
Considering your
1. increasing propensity for being offensive,
2. unwillingness to use any resources other than us, and to misuse us
at that, and
3. inability to understand that "learn to walk before you run" is an
analogy meant to point out that you will not be writing the next WoW in
a week,
maybe you should ask those friends of yours to help you out and stop
consuming all the bandwidth of this discussion venue by telling everyone
how stupid they are for not telling you the one-sentence sekrit mystery
of learning to code 3D rendering engines in 24 hours.
--
CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
McCloctnick the Lucid: "The first rule of magic is simple. Don't waste your
time waving your hands and hopping when a rock or a club will do."
Chad Perrin
>
> I don't even get how to make anything work in Ruby. It all looks lke
> gibberish. If I don't understand how Hello World thing works, how is it
> suposed to help me learn how to make 3-d graphics and kick ass gameplay?
That's the point. If you don't understand how a Hello World program
works, *you need to learn at least that much* before you have any hope of
understanding some more-complex programming techniques. How about,
instead of complaining and insulting people for suggesting you learn how
to write a Hello World, you ask about how it works.
--
CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
MacUser, Nov. 1990: "There comes a time in the history of any project when
it becomes necessary to shoot the engineers and begin production."
Craig Johnson
Joe's been told to go ask his friends...
Joe's been given pointers to libraries and mod environments, in ruby to use
to build games
Joe's been told about other choices.
Chad's response encapsulates this all.
take all that and go learn Joe...spend a little time...
It's NOT too hard...
Many have done it...that's the point...
you want a short cut, there really is none better then what you've been
given.
Go forth and code.
Robert Dober
<snip>
>
> And I feel thats enough for now. And people, I'm looking for HELP. I
I disagree: You are looking for a miracle.
Do you really think all the good folks on this list are mistaken by
telling you to learn to walk before to learn to run?
Well if you do so, go ahead and try, but it is not going to happen,
that is the very best help we can offer.
Robert
--
I always knew that one day Smalltalk would replace Java.
I just didn't know it would be called Ruby
-- Kent Beck
Chad Perrin
>
> >Writing something like WoW from scratch would indeed be a herculean task.
> >There are some libraries for various languages that eliminate a lot of
> >the more complex work, but that requires a fair bit of research to choose
> >your libraries well and learn their APIs.
>
> Ruby would not be my first choice for the bulk of the game, just because
> that's a task that really DOES need the performance of a high-end system,
> and even a factor of two slowdown might not be acceptable.
>
> It'd be interesting to compare with Lua for the in-game GUI engine.
Agreed, on all counts.
--
CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
Sammy Larbi
> And people, I'm looking for HELP. I
> to run before you can walk", or "For gods sake, use google!". I tried
> Google a thousand times.
What type of help are you looking for? How can we help you if you are
not willing to be helped? These suggestions are helpful, if you take
them into consideration. =)
Do you want us to teach you to fish, or do you want us to just give you
the fish? For some reason I thought you wanted to learn how to program...
> I found Ruby, Python, C, C#, C++, Java, and
> loads of tutorials that DIDNT help. I have no interest in making a Text
> Adventure, because, for one thing, they aren't any fun! They have no or
> bad graphics, no customizability, no nothing! Alls I want is to make a
> decent graphic game, with decent gameplay, and atleast some fun.
That is unfortunate. How can you get the characters in a graphics game
to say anything without first learning how to print stuff to the
screen? How can you find out how many hit points a character loses when
he's hit with a sword vs. a gun shot if you do not know how to roll dice
with Ruby (or your language of choice?) That's why you learn the
basics, and start at the beginning - because you need to know this
stuff. If you do not like outputting "ham sandwich", replace it with
words you'd rather see output to the screen. You need to know loops and
control structures and catching errors, and all sorts of things that
don't seem to have anything to do with gaming.
> At this
> rate, none of thats going ot happen soon. Soon I'm just going to take
> the hard road and directly try to learn C++. But for all intents and
> purposes, learning Ruby first would be an easier path. But with all the
> help I'm getting now, that path has a giant wall on it. And snakes. And
> a moat filled with plasma and alligators. And the entirety of the
> universe is between me and the wall. And a door with a sign that says
> "Stay out if you value your sanity". Because the topic at hand was never
> addressed really.
Yes, it is a hard path. Resisting the path to enlightenment is not
going to make it easier.
> The original question was how would I get started
> making a game if I had no prior coding experiance?. And I haven't
> received much on that subject.
>
>
I think you've received a lot more that I would have expected were I
asking a similar question. I just think you're not accepting it. =)
> Because I'm sure the programming team at Blizzard started out
> alot better than me.
>
Yes, they probably started out learning the basics! Probably most of
them had 4+ years of hard study getting a degree in what they do, and
even more on the job training.
--------------------------------
It's not Ruby, but Seth Able has released some of the source code to his
games. He made one of the funnest games I've ever played (and it was in
text), but later went on to do some work in games with graphics. Here
is some source code:
http://www.codedojo.com/?page_id=7
His company has also released Novashell. It tries to take care of
everything for you so you can just define the "game," but not worry
about the mechanics. You may want to review the license if you plan to
sell your game - I'm not sure what's in there. Finally, he says "This
software is *not* feature complete, may have *bugs*, and the data and
scripting formats may change. Only recommended for users who don't mind
checking here daily for new versions. Most people should probably wait
for the first release instead."
So you might get frustrated at things not working. If that doesn't work
for you, I know there are others because I used one quite some time
ago. Unfortunately, I don't remember what it was called. But, you can
always search for "game makers" or "game engines" or something related
and see what pops up.
Anyway, you can find Novashell at http://www.rtsoft.com/novashell/
Regards,
Sam