where have all the experienced users gone?
Trans
the list. is it me or has there really been some sort of migration
away?
t.
Uma Geller
> the list. is it me or has there really been some sort of migration
> away?
maybe they're doing their Xmas shopping :-)
it's not strange to be busy these days, you know.
best,
UG
---
Uma Geller
http://umageller.wordpress.com
Devin Mullins
*insert Monster Mash casette*
HELP VAMPIRES! OOOOOH!
Uma Geller
>
> HELP VAMPIRES! OOOOOH!
Coincidentally, Jim Weirich's onestepback.org seems to be down right now.
Can you confirm this ?
I would be scared if this were Halloween.
brrrrrrr.... chills
Gavin Kistner
> seems like there's been a steady drop off in experienced ruby users on
> the list. is it me or has there really been some sort of migration
> away?
It's just you. :p I've not noticed any such situation. I've seen a rise in new user questions, many of which are being handled by people other than the Top Ten Regulars (a list that exists only in my head, and probably comprises 15 people). Any signal to 'noise' (depending on what you're looking for) ratio will be affected by changes to either signal or noise. I suspect this is what's causing your perception.
Trans
Gavin Kistner wrote:
> It's just you. :p I've not noticed any such situation. I've seen a rise in new user questions, many of
> which are being handled by people other than the Top Ten Regulars (a list that exists only in my head,
> and probably comprises 15 people). Any signal to 'noise' (depending on what you're looking for) ratio
> will be affected by changes to either signal or noise. I suspect this is what's causing your perception.
yes. i'm sure that's part of it. i'm just not so sure that's all of it.
some time ago i can recall long discussions on deep topics. today they
seem very rare. and the topics themsevles seem pretty basic, yet i
don't think the overall volume has gone up that much. actually, when's
was the last ruby weekly news (http://www.rubyweeklynews.org/)? and i
recall in the few of those, tim mentioning an interesting topic and
saying "there's been no replys".
t.
Eric Hodel
In the back-channels I've heard the following reasons for why long-
time readers of ruby-talk cut back:
a) signal:noise ratio too low.
b) belligerent newbies.
--
Eric Hodel - drb...@segment7.net - http://blog.segment7.net
I LIT YOUR GEM ON FIRE!
Michael T. Richter
In the back-channels I've heard the following reasons for why long- time readers of ruby-talk cut back: a) signal:noise ratio too low. b) belligerent newbies.
|
-- Michael T. Richter Email: ttmri...@gmail.com, mtr...@hotpop.com MSN: ttmri...@hotmail.com, mtr...@hotmail.com; YIM: michael_richter_1966; AIM: YanJiahua1966; ICQ: 241960658; Jabber: mtr...@jabber.cn "Sexual organs were created for reproduction between the male element and the female element -- and everything that deviates from that is not acceptable from a Buddhist point of view. Between a man and man, a woman and another woman, in the mouth, the anus, or even using a hand." --The Dalai Lama |
Vincent Fourmond
Well, you know, for most of us, it's winter, a time when people are
tired, sick, and usually without much extra energy for things like
raising deep and interesting subjects on ruby-talk. At least, that's the
way I feel now, and from my (very careful...) observation, many people
around me are.
That might explain it, don't you think ?
Vince
--
Vincent Fourmond, PhD student
http://vincent.fourmond.neuf.fr/
Ross Bamford
Personally, I have cut back on reading the list lately, partly because my
unborn daughter keeps threatening to emerge two months early, but also
because:
* There's a lot of religious ranting going on these days.
* I see too many echoes of comp.lang.elsewhere in certain responses.
* A lot of smart people whose posts I found most interesting no longer
seem to post.
I know that a lot of people are still on irc but I a) don't have the time
and b) say the dumbest things when I don't get enough time to think :)
--
Ross Bamford - ro...@roscopeco.remove.co.uk
Robert Klemme
> Gavin Kistner wrote:
>> It's just you. :p I've not noticed any such situation. I've seen a rise in new user questions, many of
>> which are being handled by people other than the Top Ten Regulars (a list that exists only in my head,
>> and probably comprises 15 people). Any signal to 'noise' (depending on what you're looking for) ratio
>> will be affected by changes to either signal or noise. I suspect this is what's causing your perception.
>
> yes. i'm sure that's part of it. i'm just not so sure that's all of it.
I believe that volume went significantly up in the group over the course
of this year.
> some time ago i can recall long discussions on deep topics. today they
> seem very rare. and the topics themsevles seem pretty basic, yet i
> don't think the overall volume has gone up that much. actually, when's
> was the last ruby weekly news (http://www.rubyweeklynews.org/)? and i
> recall in the few of those, tim mentioning an interesting topic and
> saying "there's been no replys".
Personally, I post less because I lack interest in repeating discussions
we had in the past. And since there are more people around and more
knowledgeable people as well, chances are that someone else has posted a
reply that I would have; I try to prevent this kind of duplication as well.
Another reason is probably that it's more difficult to find interesting
topics if overall volume goes up. I would not call that signal to noise
ratio because that has a negative connotation. It is just that the
ratio of topics that I am interested in went down - partly because of
the change in traffic here, partly because my interests seem to have
changed.
As a side note, I actually did not observe an increasing amount of
heated debate - but then again, I'm probably better at ignoring it now
and see less of it by my choice of topics. :-)
Kind regards
robert
Peter Szinek
> we had in the past. And since there are more people around and more
> knowledgeable people as well, chances are that someone else has posted a
> reply that I would have; I try to prevent this kind of duplication as well.
Amy Hoy wrote a very good article on this:
http://www.slash7.com/articles/2006/3/22/s-o-s-save-our-sanity
(you need to blog_entry.gsub!("Rails"){"Ruby"} but otherwise it matches
this problem quite well)
Cheers,
Peter
Peter Szinek
>> Personally, I post less because I lack interest in repeating
>> discussions we had in the past. And since there are more people
>> around and more knowledgeable people as well, chances are that someone
>> else has posted a reply that I would have; I try to prevent this kind
>> of duplication as well.
>
> Amy Hoy wrote a very good article on this:
>
> http://www.slash7.com/articles/2006/3/22/s-o-s-save-our-sanity
Ooops, just noticed... The link to the interesting part is broken.
Sorry :-)
Peter Szinek
OK, what do you suggest? There must be some way out :-)
The thing that Robert just described (everybody always asking the same
things around) is quite well addressed (and working) on the XSLT mailing
list:
http://www.mulberrytech.com/xsl/xsl-list/
Nice and clean posting guide lines - e.g.:
---------
Before You Post ... Do Your Homework
* Check that your question isn't already answered in the XSL FAQ at
http://www.dpawson.co.uk/.
* Check that your question isn't already answered in the XSL-List
archives at http://www.biglist.com/lists/xsl-list/archives/.
---------
etc.
Of course they can do this because they have a *very* good and extensive
FAQ - I am not sure if there is something analogous in the case of Ruby
- but I am quite sure Ruby also has a searchable list archive.
It is also not just an existence of a FAQ or rules (although I guess the
mere existence of such rules could improve the signal vs noise ratio) ,
but that they are somehow respected on the XSLT list. I don't know how
are they doing this over there, but the first step should be to do
something similar in the case of Ruby. What do you think?
Of course this is not the only one problem, but I think a relevant one,
and maybe a possible starting point...
Jeremy Wells
> On Dec 18, 2006, at 18:50, Trans wrote:
>
>> seems like there's been a steady drop off in experienced ruby users on
>> the list. is it me or has there really been some sort of migration
>> away?
>
> In the back-channels I've heard the following reasons for why
>
> a) signal:noise ratio too low.
> b) belligerent newbies.
>
questions, normally involving excel. There's also a lot of postings
along the lines of "I've written this code, can you write it better for
me" which is fair enough for an interesting bit of code, but normally
the response should be, without sounding rude, "read the documentation
or buy a ruby book". Newbies want answers often before working out what
the question should be. And I'd consider myself a newbie on the way to
intermedion, but I'd never post a question like "ruby.exe doesn't work
on my windows xp! tell me what to do!?", or from a couple of pages down
the list "I need to save an Excel Spreadsheet with Ruby. I used the Save
AND SaveAs methods..." (What is it with excel? I've got no particular
problem with it, but it seems to be a magnet for the ignorant).
Jeremy
Jeremy McAnally
lists for different things. Newbies use it to get help; many of them
are programming for the first time and don't understand a lot of the
concepts (and Ruby has some that are mind-boggling if you aren't used
to thinking like an OO programmer).
Many of us want to use the list to discuss interesting things, things
that are "advanced," or bounce ideas off of another experienced
Rubyist.
This is why many times there will be "xxx-talk" (or "xxx-users") and
"xxx-newbie" lists. I think perhaps Ruby has reached that "critical
mass" point where this split is in order (even though i'm sure this
has been discussed a number of times and decided against). If it
means getting some of our best and brightest back on the list, then I
see it as necessary.
Though, many would probably argue that "no experienced programmer
would visit the newbie list." Who wants an answer from another
newbie, right? Perhaps we should setup a "n00b taskforce" to monitor
that list and answer questions; just a few people to check in every
day. I would be willing to do it, if a few others would help me out.
To make this whole thing effective, though, the residents of this list
would have to be stringent about telling people to "take it to the
newbies" if their question is something that belongs there.
Just a thought.
--Jeremy
P.S. - It would also be mildly entertaining to have an auto-answer FAQ
bot that parsed the language of a message and if it could decently
figure out what they're saying, post an answer pointing to a
(currently non-existent) Ruby FAQ...
On 12/19/06, Robert Dober <robert...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yup while whining I forgot to talk about the real reasons.
> You do have a good point, and maybe I am completely off but I still think a
> FAQ would get rid of some of the noise, there would be the classic themes
> * IDE
> * Slow or not slow
> * splash and some other very Rubyesque things
> * Meaning of #==, #equal? (yessss I am whining again)
> * What is true and what is not?
> * Receivers of messages as in x > 5
> NoMethodError: undefined method `>' for nil:NilClass,
> Q? But 5 is not nil, surely
> * Upcoming changes or at least links
> * Pitfalls like proc vs lambda
> * goto Rails, without being impolite, it should be a pointer not a "get out
> of here" ;)
>
> I do not have too much time and I do not think that I am qualified but
> maybe be just starting a FAQ somebody will hit it until it is a good one ( I
> know *some* stuff about Ruby after all), another idea is to include some
> really useful links, like where to look first in case of certain specific
> error categories and AGF, the Golden Rule for posting of course - like the
> old RTFM but politically correct ;)
> Ask Google First
>
> Just the same thoughts again.
>
> Robert
> --
> "The real romance is out ahead and yet to come. The computer revolution
> hasn't started yet. Don't be misled by the enormous flow of money into bad
> defacto standards for unsophisticated buyers using poor adaptations of
> incomplete ideas."
>
> - Alan Kay
>
>
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky
> Yup while whining I forgot to talk about the real reasons.
> You do have a good point, and maybe I am completely off but I still
> think a
> FAQ would get rid of some of the noise, there would be the classic themes
> and AGF, the Golden Rule for posting of course - like the
> old RTFM but politically correct ;)
> Ask Google First
AFG
or
STFW :)
--
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky, FBG, AB, PTA, PGS, MS, MNLP, NST, ACMC(P)
http://borasky-research.blogspot.com/
If God had meant for carrots to be eaten cooked, He would have given rabbits fire.
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky
> Well, you know, for most of us, it's winter, a time when people are
> tired, sick, and usually without much extra energy for things like
> raising deep and interesting subjects on ruby-talk. At least, that's the
> way I feel now, and from my (very careful...) observation, many people
> around me are.
>
> That might explain it, don't you think ?
>
line, plus working on personal open source projects. But yeah, deep and
interesting subjects tend to die off slowly after RubyConf. And it's a
little rare that people ask questions in one of my areas of expertise
anyhow (performance engineering, numerical computing, old-timers in
computing, Linux, bizarre programming languages of the past or classical
music.) :)
Gregory Brown
I think many people are hanging out in localized groups now, because
of the "Too Much Email" issue and also the shift in the feel of
RubyTalk due to the influx of new users.
I still see some great conversations here, but as someone who was for
a short time a RubyTalk addict, I normally only scan the list once a
day or so, and spend the rest of the time hanging on IRC channels /
mailing lists for projects i'm involved in / interested in and also
user groups. I suspect similar for other folks in the community [0]
I don't think that's a bad thing necessarily, but I can see where
you're coming from.
-greg
[0] http://www.oreillynet.com/ruby/blog/2006/11/the_joy_of_local_mailing_lists.html
James Britt
> On Dec 18, 2006, at 18:50, Trans wrote:
>
>> seems like there's been a steady drop off in experienced ruby users on
>> the list. is it me or has there really been some sort of migration
>> away?
>
> In the back-channels I've heard the following reasons for why long-time
> readers of ruby-talk cut back:
>
> a) signal:noise ratio too low.
> b) belligerent newbies.
Agreed.
I've been marking all list mail as 'read' upon arrival so there is no
instant clue that there are new messages. I visually scan for certain
sender names or topic words, and have some filters to catch references
to a small set of keywords. Just in case.
But I don't bother trying to keep up or pitch in as I once did. I'm
sure I'm missing some interesting topics, but it's too tedious to wade
through "What is the best IDE?" , "What's wrong with my ajax?", "Why is
my model not validating?", and "Your opinion on [foo] is teh sux."
All in all, I'd rather just focus on writing, and writing about, Ruby.
(This started way before the holidays, too, so we can't blame Santa's
elves.)
--
James Britt
"Simplicity of the language is not what matters, but
simplicity of use."
- Richard A. O'Keefe in squeak-dev mailing list
Ryan Davis
I think waste-of-time/bandwidth responses like this sum up a good
portion of the reason.
Wilson Bilkovich
Yep. Luckily, not reading this list frees up time for more useful
work, like http://code.fallingsnow.net/repository/browse/rubinius/trunk
Lengthy conversations about architecture and design were fun, but
actually doing it is even better.
James Edward Gray II
> This is why many times there will be "xxx-talk" (or "xxx-users") and
> "xxx-newbie" lists. I think perhaps Ruby has reached that "critical
> mass" point where this split is in order (even though i'm sure this
> has been discussed a number of times and decided against).
I was on perl-beginners for years. When I came to the Ruby community
I asked for the equivalent, but many members felt it wasn't needed or
even desired. While I think I came around to their point of view
over time, I'm not sure it still holds.
> Though, many would probably argue that "no experienced programmer
> would visit the newbie list."
I've seen this argument multiple times, but it certainly doesn't hold
true in the Perl community. See perl-beginners and Perl Monks.
Plenty of knowledgeable help on both. I enjoy helping others and
stayed on the list to do so when I was past the beginner stage, as
just one example.
> To make this whole thing effective, though, the residents of this list
> would have to be stringent about telling people to "take it to the
> newbies" if their question is something that belongs there.
Now this I don't feel is needed or desired. I don't think we want to
start turning anyone away, period. There's no reason questions can't
still be answered here. There would just be a new resource, with a
comfortable beginner's environment. (I do feel it should be
moderated, though I realize many view that as a sin.)
> P.S. - It would also be mildly entertaining to have an auto-answer FAQ
> bot that parsed the language of a message and if it could decently
> figure out what they're saying, post an answer pointing to a
> (currently non-existent) Ruby FAQ...
As has been pointed out, we do have an FAQ.
I feel a bot like this hurts the community interaction. Answers are
best let to the users, in my opinion.
James Edward Gray II
Jeremy McAnally
> Now this I don't feel is needed or desired. I don't think we want to
> start turning anyone away, period. There's no reason questions can't
> still be answered here. There would just be a new resource, with a
> comfortable beginner's environment. (I do feel it should be
> moderated, though I realize many view that as a sin.)
>
I certainly wouldn't _want_ that to "turn people away," but if the
problem is that the signal to noise ratio is too high, one (perhaps
the only...I'm not sure) way to solve that is to (perhaps a better
word is...) suggest that they ask that on the newbie list. Think of
it in the same way that we suggest that things be asked on the Rails
list, even though _someone_ here certainly knows the answer. Proper
list for proper topics.
>
> As has been pointed out, we do have an FAQ.
>
> I feel a bot like this hurts the community interaction. Answers are
> best let to the users, in my opinion.
>
I agree, but questions like "What is the best IDE?" could certainly be
answered by providing links to numerous previous discussions, no?
Ah, and this is a FAQ that I (obviously) was not aware of. See how
publicized it is? ;) I shall bookmark it and refer people to it as
needed...thanks for pointing that out. I missed it earlier I suppose.
--Jeremy
Paul Lutus
> On Dec 19, 2006, at 7:52 AM, Jeremy McAnally wrote:
>
>> This is why many times there will be "xxx-talk" (or "xxx-users") and
>> "xxx-newbie" lists. I think perhaps Ruby has reached that "critical
>> mass" point where this split is in order (even though i'm sure this
>> has been discussed a number of times and decided against).
>
> I was on perl-beginners for years. When I came to the Ruby community
> I asked for the equivalent, but many members felt it wasn't needed or
> even desired. While I think I came around to their point of view
> over time, I'm not sure it still holds.
>
>> Though, many would probably argue that "no experienced programmer
>> would visit the newbie list."
>
> I've seen this argument multiple times, but it certainly doesn't hold
> true in the Perl community. See perl-beginners and Perl Monks.
> Plenty of knowledgeable help on both. I enjoy helping others and
> stayed on the list to do so when I was past the beginner stage, as
> just one example.
>
>> To make this whole thing effective, though, the residents of this list
>> would have to be stringent about telling people to "take it to the
>> newbies" if their question is something that belongs there.
>
> Now this I don't feel is needed or desired. I don't think we want to
> start turning anyone away, period. There's no reason questions can't
> still be answered here.
I've had this debate in a number of forums for different languages over the
years, and I have always taken your position on this. If a newbie newsgroup
were to be set up, IMHO it would decrease the quality of the replies to
newbies, and in some cases lead to a "blind leading the blind" syndrome.
Also, where this has been tried, it sometimes leads to newbies gradually
abandoning the newbie newsgroup because of the poor quality of replies and
also to avoid the stigma of posting to a newbie newsgroup.
Such things as RoR and perhaps Windows-specific newsgroups (e.g. for
Excel-related posts), if/when justified by the amount of traffic, make more
sense because they remain open to general questions and are appropriately
focused, but only when the amount of traffic justifies creation of a new
newsgroup.
Digression. My biggest annoyance about this forum is the degree to which
posts are not properly disseminated. Sometimes I reply to a post and the
originator very clearly never sees the reply even though it appears in
Usenet, or I see a reply to a post, the original of which never appears on
the Usenet forum. Sometimes the latter case becomes one of seeing only one
side of an exchange.
This problem would be solved by making this forum a pure, old-style Usenet
newsgroup with no imperfect connections to other ways of reading and
posting, but that simple arrangement seems to be falling out of favor for
some reason in modern times.
--
Paul Lutus
http://www.arachnoid.com
Vincent Fourmond
>> As has been pointed out, we do have an FAQ.
>>
>> I feel a bot like this hurts the community interaction. Answers are
>> best let to the users, in my opinion.
>>
>
> I agree, but questions like "What is the best IDE?" could certainly be
> answered by providing links to numerous previous discussions, no?
>
> Ah, and this is a FAQ that I (obviously) was not aware of. See how
> publicized it is? ;) I shall bookmark it and refer people to it as
> needed...thanks for pointing that out. I missed it earlier I suppose.
I wasn't aware of the FAQ as well. What about a list footer pointing
to a few useful resources ? I don't think it would hinder reading a lot,
but my opinion is that the message would slowly sink in (I speak with
experience, as I do need such a thing to remember where I can look for
resources).
What do you think about it ?
James Edward Gray II
Again, see perl-beginners and Perl Monks. This just isn't the case
there, though that is the extent of my experience in this area.
James Edward Gray II
Martin DeMello
Likewise the ocaml-beginners mailing list, which is a friendly and
supportive place that encourages me to ask questions I'd perhaps be
hesitant about cluttering the 'seniors' mailing list with. Lots of
experienced people hanging around answering questions, too.
martin
Rob Sanheim
> On Dec 19, 2006, at 7:52 AM, Jeremy McAnally wrote:
> > P.S. - It would also be mildly entertaining to have an auto-answer FAQ
> > bot that parsed the language of a message and if it could decently
> > figure out what they're saying, post an answer pointing to a
> > (currently non-existent) Ruby FAQ...
>
> As has been pointed out, we do have an FAQ.
>
> I feel a bot like this hurts the community interaction. Answers are
> best let to the users, in my opinion.
>
> James Edward Gray II
As others have pointed out, and I mentioned in a thread I started just
on the faq, its poorly publicized, out of date, and is easily confused
with the short (basically unhelpful) rubycentral.com faq. Fixing
these issues could go a long way towards cutting off some of the
newbie questions.
- Rob
Tom Werner
>
>> This is why many times there will be "xxx-talk" (or "xxx-users") and
>> "xxx-newbie" lists. I think perhaps Ruby has reached that "critical
>> mass" point where this split is in order (even though i'm sure this
>> has been discussed a number of times and decided against).
>
> I was on perl-beginners for years. When I came to the Ruby community
> I asked for the equivalent, but many members felt it wasn't needed or
> even desired. While I think I came around to their point of view over
> time, I'm not sure it still holds.
>
In addition to the newbie/guru split, there is also the possibility of a
core/user split. The core list would be for discussions relating to the
current and future status of the Ruby language itself, the core
libraries, and more theoretical questions. The user list would be for
discussions about 3rd party libraries, installation problems, and IDEs. =)
This split has the benefit of not making anyone feel like a newb, while
still creating a separate area for hard core Rubyists to talk about
serious issues without all the noise.
Tom
James Edward Gray II
Ruby has a "core" and a "talk" list today:
http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/community/mailing-lists/
James Edward Gray II
Julien Gaugaz
the following:
There would be two lists: one newbies, and one "guru". Each message sent
to one is also sent to the other, but with a tag: Like [NEWBIES] and [GURU].
It has the advantage that the lists are not really split, and the choice
is let to each one to choose if she wants to read or not the newbies or
guru messages.
I'm not sure it's really different from the standard two separate lists
though...
Julien
Chris Carter
ruby-talk would be good. Ruby talk could have theory questions,
project announcements, and insightful discussions, ruby-help could be
the beginners list, and also general help questions.
--
Chris Carter
concentrationstudios.com
brynmawrcs.com
Jeremy McAnally
> to one is also sent to the other, but with a tag: Like [NEWBIES] and [GURU].
> It has the advantage that the lists are not really split, and the choice
> is let to each one to choose if she wants to read or not the newbies or
> guru messages.
> I'm not sure it's really different from the standard two separate lists
> though...
Yeah, and you add an extra step into the sending process, and I'm not
sure if that would really work (especially if there would have to be
another layer of redirection like the current gateways).
Even so, I'm not really sure "guru" is the right tag for it; I think
that most people just want the "Where is tehRuby compiler?" and
"What's the best Ruby book?" questions off the talk list, since there
is really not much useful talk involved. I think perhaps simply
maintaining the talk lists and providing a newbie list may be the best
solution (in my mind, at least).
Also, perhaps the Ruby lang site could offer a search box right there
on the mailing list page? This could be for people who have a
question that has already been answered won't be tempted to join the
list just to ask.
--Jeremy
Michael W. Ryder
>> There would be two lists: one newbies, and one "guru". Each message sent
>> to one is also sent to the other, but with a tag: Like [NEWBIES] and
>> [GURU].
>> It has the advantage that the lists are not really split, and the choice
>> is let to each one to choose if she wants to read or not the newbies or
>> guru messages.
>> I'm not sure it's really different from the standard two separate lists
>> though...
>
> Yeah, and you add an extra step into the sending process, and I'm not
> sure if that would really work (especially if there would have to be
> another layer of redirection like the current gateways).
>
> Even so, I'm not really sure "guru" is the right tag for it; I think
> that most people just want the "Where is tehRuby compiler?" and
> "What's the best Ruby book?" questions off the talk list, since there
> is really not much useful talk involved. I think perhaps simply
> maintaining the talk lists and providing a newbie list may be the best
> solution (in my mind, at least).
>
> Also, perhaps the Ruby lang site could offer a search box right there
> on the mailing list page? This could be for people who have a
> question that has already been answered won't be tempted to join the
> list just to ask.
>
Which would be of no benefit for those who access the messages through
Usenet. Also the FAQ is never seen by those on Usenet.
ara.t....@noaa.gov
> As others have pointed out, and I mentioned in a thread I started just on
> the faq, its poorly publicized, out of date, and is easily confused with the
> short (basically unhelpful) rubycentral.com faq. Fixing these issues could
> go a long way towards cutting off some of the newbie questions.
is it me, or are others also thinking that a thread complaining about
experienced users evaporating that also aims to reduce newbie posts might just
succeed in reducing the volume on ruby-talk to zero?
;-)
-a
--
if you find yourself slandering anybody, first imagine that your mouth is
filled with excrement. it will break you of the habit quickly enough. - the
dalai lama
Trans
Paul Lutus wrote:
> Digression. My biggest annoyance about this forum is the degree to which
> posts are not properly disseminated. Sometimes I reply to a post and the
> originator very clearly never sees the reply even though it appears in
> Usenet, or I see a reply to a post, the original of which never appears on
> the Usenet forum. Sometimes the latter case becomes one of seeing only one
> side of an exchange.
>
> This problem would be solved by making this forum a pure, old-style Usenet
> newsgroup with no imperfect connections to other ways of reading and
> posting, but that simple arrangement seems to be falling out of favor for
> some reason in modern times.
I agree with you there. it certainly doesn't help the situation. add to
it that some experinced readers are filtering the list, and we are
seeing a fari bit of "talking past each other" --which only
exhaserbates the issues.
t.
Trans
ara.t....@noaa.gov wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Dec 2006, Rob Sanheim wrote:
>
> > As others have pointed out, and I mentioned in a thread I started just on
> > the faq, its poorly publicized, out of date, and is easily confused with the
> > short (basically unhelpful) rubycentral.com faq. Fixing these issues could
> > go a long way towards cutting off some of the newbie questions.
>
> is it me, or are others also thinking that a thread complaining about
> experienced users evaporating that also aims to reduce newbie posts might just
> succeed in reducing the volume on ruby-talk to zero?
>
> ;-)
now ara, why'd you have to go and curse us like that ;-)
no, seriously, it doesn't help us to try to ignore it if its happening.
and it seems enough people have noticed. maybe there is nothing to be
done about it, but condsider if the trend continues....
so i think it's important to at least try to understand the trend --it
may well mean a great deal to the future of what has long been THE
PLACE for the english-speaking ruby community.
t.
Giles Bowkett
Rails list was like right before they kicked me off. Amy Hoy wrote
that thing in March 2006, if anything it only got worse on that list
as time went on. I think the problem is partly that the incredible
ease of use of Rails makes it very appealling to lazy people.
I think it's very, very important to have a community that helps
newbies without tolerating laziness and help vampires.
> I personally don't think there's a 'solution' to the 'problem' that Ruby
> and the mailing list have become so popular that it's no longer mostly
> hard core ruby geeks discussing esoteric idioms and proposing crazy
> changes to the core language.
>
..
>
> Ruby is getting popular. The startup days are gone, for better or worse.
> You'll have to walk among the unwashed masses and hope that others you
> wish were there will choose to do so.
>
> This doesn't mean that we shouldn't strive for all manner of
> signal-to-noise improvement projects
I think this is true, and an earlier post was very relevant:
> I was on perl-beginners for years. When I came to the Ruby community
> I asked for the equivalent, but many members felt it wasn't needed or
> even desired. While I think I came around to their point of view
> over time, I'm not sure it still holds.
>
> > Though, many would probably argue that "no experienced programmer
> > would visit the newbie list."
>
> I've seen this argument multiple times, but it certainly doesn't hold
> true in the Perl community. See perl-beginners and Perl Monks.
> Plenty of knowledgeable help on both. I enjoy helping others and
> stayed on the list to do so when I was past the beginner stage, as
> just one example.
I think a Ruby Monks (or Ruby Wizards, the idea that the most skilled
people never get laid, I don't see how that's supposed to be
complimentary) would be a good thing. I think there are wizards still
on here helping out, certainly I'm a newbie and I've gotten
constructive help many times, and I've seen conversations sailing way
over my head, too. Of course by definition I have no idea what it was
like before I got here, but if there's some kind of clean, explicit
separation between newbie questions and experienced discussion, it'll
probably make life easier. As popular as Ruby has already become, I
think it's only going to get more so.
--
Giles Bowkett
http://www.gilesgoatboy.org
http://gilesbowkett.blogspot.com
http://gilesgoatboy.blogspot.com
Morton Goldberg
> I don't think we should have a "beginners" list. A ruby-help and a
> ruby-talk would be good. Ruby talk could have theory questions,
> project announcements, and insightful discussions, ruby-help could be
> the beginners list, and also general help questions.
If it comes to splitting the list, I think this is way to do it.
Regards, Morton
Michael T. Richter
Agreed. I've been marking all list mail as 'read' upon arrival so there is no instant clue that there are new messages. I visually scan for certain sender names or topic words, and have some filters to catch references to a small set of keywords. Just in case. But I don't bother trying to keep up or pitch in as I once did. I'm sure I'm missing some interesting topics, but it's too tedious to wade through "What is the best IDE?" , "What's wrong with my ajax?", "Why is my model not validating?", and "Your opinion on [foo] is teh sux." All in all, I'd rather just focus on writing, and writing about, Ruby. (This started way before the holidays, too, so we can't blame Santa's elves.)
) coming into the mailing list for the first time does not see a vital community full of knowledgeable people ready to share what they know. Instead they see an increasingly hostile community fraught with flames and lacking support for them. A significant fraction of these (likely the majority) will then conclude that learning Ruby won't be worthwhile and will go elsewhere to less productive, less useful, less fun languages. They suffer and so does the Ruby community as a result.As I said I understand fully your reasons for stepping out like this. I'm just wondering if you've thought through the possible consequences.
|
-- Michael T. Richter Email: ttmri...@gmail.com, mtr...@hotpop.com MSN: ttmri...@hotmail.com, mtr...@hotmail.com; YIM: michael_richter_1966; AIM: YanJiahua1966; ICQ: 241960658; Jabber: mtr...@jabber.cn "I would not flinch from sacrificing a million lives for India's liberty!" --Mahatma Gandhi |
dbl...@wobblini.net
On Wed, 20 Dec 2006, Michael T. Richter wrote:
> On Wed, 2006-20-12 at 02:31 +0900, James Britt wrote:
>
>> Agreed.
>>
>> I've been marking all list mail as 'read' upon arrival so there is no
>> instant clue that there are new messages. I visually scan for certain
>> sender names or topic words, and have some filters to catch references
>> to a small set of keywords. Just in case.
>>
>> But I don't bother trying to keep up or pitch in as I once did. I'm
>> sure I'm missing some interesting topics, but it's too tedious to wade
>> through "What is the best IDE?" , "What's wrong with my ajax?", "Why is
>> my model not validating?", and "Your opinion on [foo] is teh sux."
>>
>> All in all, I'd rather just focus on writing, and writing about, Ruby.
>>
>> (This started way before the holidays, too, so we can't blame Santa's
>> elves.)
>
>
>
> While I can understand and appreciate the reasons for this approach,
> James, it does have a significant (and in my opinion bad) side-effect:
> you're leaving the field to those who can't contribute as much or as
> well as you can. This means that a Ruby Newbie (hah! :D) coming into
> the mailing list for the first time does not see a vital community full
> of knowledgeable people ready to share what they know. Instead they see
> an increasingly hostile community fraught with flames and lacking
> support for them. A significant fraction of these (likely the majority)
> will then conclude that learning Ruby won't be worthwhile and will go
> elsewhere to less productive, less useful, less fun languages. They
> suffer and so does the Ruby community as a result.
If it were all that deterministic and manipulable and predictable,
we'd just do whatever it was that pushed the "Make this a great forum
for all people, forever" button and that would be that. It's
certainly too bad to see James pulling away from the list, but I think
we have to bend before we break, so to speak. James is free to do as
he likes.
The increases in hostile, flame-like rhetoric on the list in recent
times will not, I'm afraid, vary inversely with signal. However, I do
love the fact that there is still a lot of signal on this list. It's
a bit more buried than it used to be, but on a decent day there are as
many interesting, well-intentioned, friendly posts as there were back
in the days that I'm supposed to be grumpily nostalgic about :-)
David
--
Q. What's a good holiday present for the serious Rails developer?
A. RUBY FOR RAILS by David A. Black (http://www.manning.com/black)
aka The Ruby book for Rails developers!
Q. Where can I get Ruby/Rails on-site training, consulting, coaching?
A. Ruby Power and Light, LLC (http://www.rubypal.com)
Trans
Has it increased? I imagine there's probably some conservation
principle at play. after all what would life be without a little drama
now and then, eh david?
flame-wars are underated ;-) and honestly its the one's with real
bullets that get too much hype.
t.
Michael T. Richter
It's certainly too bad to see James pulling away from the list, but I think we have to bend before we break, so to speak. James is free to do as he likes.
The increases in hostile, flame-like rhetoric on the list in recent times will not, I'm afraid, vary inversely with signal.
|
-- Michael T. Richter Email: ttmri...@gmail.com, mtr...@hotpop.com MSN: ttmri...@hotmail.com, mtr...@hotmail.com; YIM: michael_richter_1966; AIM: YanJiahua1966; ICQ: 241960658; Jabber: mtr...@jabber.cn |
| "I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists." --Abraham Lincoln |
James Britt
>
> I've always found that killfiles work extremely well for getting rid of
> empty content. For whichever definition of "empty" people choose to
> use.
>
I think I have two names in my killfile. I use some "kill on
inspection" guidelines, though:
* Top posting
* Scripting-kiddie spelling (e.g., Windoze)
* General derision towards people who worship
the "wrong" OS|IDE|text editor
--
James Britt
"I never dispute another person's delusions, just their facts."
- Len Bullard
James Britt
> On Wed, 2006-20-12 at 02:31 +0900, James Britt wrote:
>> All in all, I'd rather just focus on writing, and writing about, Ruby.
>>
>> (This started way before the holidays, too, so we can't blame Santa's
>> elves.)
>
>
>
> While I can understand and appreciate the reasons for this approach,
> James, it does have a significant (and in my opinion bad) side-effect:
> you're leaving the field to those who can't contribute as much or as
> the mailing list for the first time does not see a vital community full
> of knowledgeable people ready to share what they know. Instead they see
> an increasingly hostile community fraught with flames and lacking
> support for them. A significant fraction of these (likely the majority)
> will then conclude that learning Ruby won't be worthwhile and will go
> elsewhere to less productive, less useful, less fun languages. They
> suffer and so does the Ruby community as a result.
>
Well, I've not abandoned the list (as my posts on this thread shows),
but I have realized that I cannot stay on top of it as I once could.
More to the point, though, the gradual shift in content and tone has
made me less inclined to want to stay on top of the list as a I once
did. (And not just this lists; most lists now get the "mark-as-read on
arrival" treatment.)
> As I said I understand fully your reasons for stepping out like this.
> I'm just wondering if you've thought through the possible consequences.
>
No, of course not. I'm making decisions based on what I think is best
for me. There's no ill will involved. I'm not stooping to calling
newbies "vampires" or other such nonsense. I just don't have the
wherewithal or the inclination to follow each thread on the list.
I'm not enthralled by Rails; I don't care about IDE choice. I do watch
for posts from certain people or on certain topics, and I'm too much of
a bigmouth to stay quiet very long. But mostly I'm trying to earn a
living hacking Ruby, and time is short. (Side note: I've given up on
reading most top-posted comments. If someone wants a response, they
should make it easy to read their post. If they don't care about my
time, I don't care about their problem.)
As for stepping out, I'm still looking after ruby-doc.org, and getting a
Ruby book on-line:
And I organize the Ruby group here in Phoenix.
Mailing lists and developer communities change. That's life. It would
be quite sad if this list didn't see a constant shift in those offering
guiding hands to newcomers.
Maybe a better question to ask is, Who are the *new* experienced users
on the list?
And if we can't find them, then there's a real problem.
--
James Britt
"To predict the behavior of ordinary people in advance, you only have to
assume that they will always try to escape a disagreeable situation with
the smallest possible expenditure of intelligence."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
Michael T. Richter
I think I have two names in my killfile. I use some "kill on inspection" guidelines, though:
* Top posting * Scripting-kiddie spelling (e.g., Windoze) * General derision towards people who worship the "wrong" OS|IDE|text editor
|
-- Michael T. Richter Email: ttmri...@gmail.com, mtr...@hotpop.com MSN: ttmri...@hotmail.com, mtr...@hotmail.com; YIM: michael_richter_1966; AIM: YanJiahua1966; ICQ: 241960658; Jabber: mtr...@jabber.cn |
Simon Strandgaard
[snip]
> T's (what's your name;)
[snip]
ts = "Guy Decoux"
--
Simon Strandgaard
Trans
Simon Strandgaard wrote:
> On 12/19/06, Robert Dober <robert...@gmail.com> wrote:
> [snip]
> > T's (what's your name;)
> [snip]
T = Trans
My real name is Tom (Thomas), but there are lot's of Toms, so I use
Trans, and T for short.
T.
Trans
Robert Dober wrote:
> > But that is not Trans, or am I confused? Anyway thx for caring Simon!
> I thaught T was Tom, anyway the important thing is the quality/content of
> his/her posts, and that is quite high.
> So coming back to all that has been said (not only by Simon and it was not
> simple anyway;) I just would like to add my POV in slight favor of splitting
> the ML.
> The conservatives' reasons are valuable but I feel that the auto-dynamic of
> the ML just pushes us there...
do you favor a ruby-beginner list or a ruby-advanced list split?
T.
Uma Geller
I favor a ruby-talk list and another, meta-ruby-talk list for threads
such as this :-)
(me being a relatively new rubyist)
---
Uma Geller
http://umageller.wordpress.com
Geoff
> On Dec 18, 2006, at 18:50, Trans wrote:
>
>> seems like there's been a steady drop off in experienced ruby users on
>> the list. is it me or has there really been some sort of migration
>> away?
>
> In the back-channels I've heard the following reasons for why long-
> time readers of ruby-talk cut back:
>
> a) signal:noise ratio too low.
> b) belligerent newbies.
>
I've been reading quite a bit about these properties of online
communities lately. There's a lot of material worth looking into if you
happen to have a bit of a deeper interest, like:
Clay Shirky's "A Group is it's Own Worst Enemy"
http://shirky.com/writings/group_enemy.html
Clay Shirky's "Group as User: Flaming and the Design of Social Software"
http://www.shirky.com/writings/group_user.html
Kathy Sierra's "How to Build a User Community: Part 1"
http://headrush.typepad.com/creating_passionate_users/2006/12/
how_to_build_a_.html
Oh, and I'm definitely a Ruby newb myself, but I'm learning, and this
mailing-list/Usenet-newsgroup/forum has proven a fantastic learning
resource. I hope that, one way or another, that continues to be the
case.
Geoff.
Trans
James Britt wrote:
> Mailing lists and developer communities change. That's life. It would
> be quite sad if this list didn't see a constant shift in those offering
> guiding hands to newcomers.
>
> Maybe a better question to ask is, Who are the *new* experienced users
> on the list?
>
> And if we can't find them, then there's a real problem.
There are some "up and coming". But that is a good question.
T.
Trans
Robert Dober wrote:
> Hi Tom ;) (Guy is "ts" BTW) maybe the later, ruby-beginner might be too
> negative, what you think?
Yes. that's possible true, although it might also be comforting to
those who are beginners.
Name not withstanding, the significant difficulty with a separate
mailing list is getting people to use it and for the purposes intended.
I have some experience in this. I once attempted to start a ruby-rcr
list. It was only mildly successful, but it was clear that it could not
flourish without wider support from the core community, so it
eventually evaporated (which is unfortunate as I think it's needed more
than ever now). A new vs. experienced split of ruby-talk will have some
of the same problems. Without committed support it won't work. And
ensuring that experienced users visit the beginners list is an added
challenge.
Having reread over all the posts to this thread here is the conclusion
I am drawing....
At some point the split may be necessary, maybe we are at that point.
But one of the great things about this list has been the cordial
intermingling of new and expert user. I think many would agree that it
would be nice if we could keep it that way. Perhaps we can find a way
to "upscale" the list to work better for both beginner and experienced
users alike.
In a post script, Jeremy McAnally had written,
"It would also be mildly entertaining to have an auto-answer FAQ bot
that parsed the language of a message and if it could decently figure
out what they're saying, post an answer pointing to a (currently
non-existent) Ruby FAQ..."
I realize that automated replies don't have the niceties of human
interaction, but I think something like this could go a long way toward
improving list usage. Rather then automated answers just against a FAQ,
automate them against the mailing list itself via the archives. An
automated answer could then provide a list of links to related old
posts. Even as an experienced user I would find this kind of
representation helpful! Also, with these automated replies, experienced
users who are already setting up "weak" list filters, could create
stronger ones based on whether a new topic received an automated reply
or not, and what the automated reply concluded about it. (In fact I
imagine a Bayesian filter would be part of the bots implementation.) I
think it would be better for us to try something like this, and see how
it fairs, before taking the leap to two lists.
What do others think? And also, is anyone up to the challenge?
T.
Christian Neukirchen
> I don't think we should have a "beginners" list. A ruby-help and a
> ruby-talk would be good. Ruby talk could have theory questions,
> project announcements, and insightful discussions, ruby-help could be
> the beginners list, and also general help questions.
+1, good idea.
> Chris Carter
--
Christian Neukirchen <chneuk...@gmail.com> http://chneukirchen.org
Phrogz
> I've been reading quite a bit about these properties of online
> communities lately. There's a lot of material worth looking into if you
> happen to have a bit of a deeper interest, like:
>
> Clay Shirky's "A Group is it's Own Worst Enemy"
> http://shirky.com/writings/group_enemy.html
>
> Clay Shirky's "Group as User: Flaming and the Design of Social Software"
> http://www.shirky.com/writings/group_user.html
>
> Kathy Sierra's "How to Build a User Community: Part 1"
> http://headrush.typepad.com/creating_passionate_users/2006/12/
> how_to_build_a_.html
Having read those, I'd like to put that a little stronger:
1) I would request that all participants of this community read (or at
least skim) that last one in particular. To make it easier, here's an
short unbroken link:
http://rubyurl.com/YeY
2) I'd like to find a common spot that we could put something based on
the above (after we get some semblance of agreement on what it says)
that we could point new users and violators. Not really a charter, not
a mission statement, but some sort of creed of behavior. Something that
says "Be nice, be helpful, be respectful", but in more words and with
concrete do's and don't's and helpful examples.
There are very few experienced, long-time posters who I can think of
who would violate this creed. I feel that I've seen more than a few
semi-new-comers posting with serious attitude, and (in my opinion) it's
reasonably important that we don't just lead by example, but (as the
article says) take a zero-tolerance policy towards
abusive/high-and-might/asshole posts.
For the good of the community and national security. To fight the
terrorists. Won't somebody please think of the children?
Peter Szinek
> 1) I would request that all participants of this community read (or at
> least skim) that last one in particular. To make it easier, here's an
> short unbroken link:
> http://rubyurl.com/YeY
Great article! A real must read for everyone here (and for everybody who
is or planning to become a member of any community).
I could not agree more with this article because basically I put it to
practice here at ruby-talk - I begun to answer some questions, despite
of still being a noob myself - and I have learned a *lot* during this.
I am still just a beginner and the answers are maybe not the most
perfect, but anyway they are corrected by the 'adults' here and it is a
sure way to learn a lot.
> 2) I'd like to find a common spot that we could put something based on
> the above (after we get some semblance of agreement on what it says)
> that we could point new users and violators. Not really a charter, not
> a mission statement, but some sort of creed of behavior. Something that
> says "Be nice, be helpful, be respectful", but in more words and with
> concrete do's and don't's and helpful examples.
100% agree.
> There are very few experienced, long-time posters who I can think of
> who would violate this creed. I feel that I've seen more than a few
> semi-new-comers posting with serious attitude, and (in my opinion) it's
> reasonably important that we don't just lead by example, but (as the
> article says) take a zero-tolerance policy towards
> abusive/high-and-might/asshole posts.
Well said. loop do { +1 }.
Cheers,
Peter
Edwin Fine
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
--
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
Trans
I'm curious. Did anyone recieve/read this? I'm surprised no one has
replied to it, even if it's just to say "dumb idea".
T.
Robert Klemme
I received and read it - but since I could not provide good feedback...
It sounds like a good idea but I wonder how it will work in practice.
This might not be a problem in a newsgroup but for a mailing list this
automated reply could easily trigger spam filters etc. Generally I have
a tendency against stuff that automatically increases traffic but it
still might well be worth a try. Dunno...
Regards
robert
James Edward Gray II
> I still like Eric Raymond's classic FAQ:
>
> http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
Definitely some good advice in there, but I don't care for the tone
of this article much.
James Edward Gray II
Jeremy McAnally
might be appropriate. Send a mail back that says something like,
"Check this FAQ, it may answer your question. If not, reply to this
e-mail with a blank body" or something. That way there's no
additional list traffic and it still gets the same thing accomplished.
OF course, you would really only want to do that if the algorithm was
pretty darn positive it knew the answer.
--Jeremy
Vincent Fourmond
> On further reflection, perhaps something at the gateway/server level
> might be appropriate. Send a mail back that says something like,
> "Check this FAQ, it may answer your question. If not, reply to this
> e-mail with a blank body" or something. That way there's no
> additional list traffic and it still gets the same thing accomplished.
> OF course, you would really only want to do that if the algorithm was
> pretty darn positive it knew the answer.
Even though I like the idea, I somehow think it is not a good idea. No
one likes to be policed. You can't force the people to be educated if
they don't have the intention to... And the scheme of having some kind
of automatic validation before the post, though tempting, is dangerous:
most likely, and even if you invest a great deal of energy in the
algorithm, you'll end up with two effects:
* interesting people that get fed up being replied 'check out this
FAQ' 25% times they post something;
* 'loosers' (with lots of quotes, I don't have the brains today to
look for a diplomatic designation) that find a way to confuse the
algorithm and get their posts through.
Both are definitely not what you want. But I don't have a better
answer as well...
Hey, what do you think about adding inside the mail the 2/3 first
results of a google (or whatever) search on the mail subject ? So people
who post questions with accurate title might find an answer simply by
reading their own post ? (I know it somehow sounds dumb...)
Cheers,
Vince
--
Vincent Fourmond, PhD student
http://vincent.fourmond.neuf.fr/
Devin Mullins
> Both are definitely not what you want. But I don't have a better
> answer as well...
adds a sig to every mail with one or two FAQ links.
Tom Pollard
On Dec 23, 2006, at 12:08 PM, Devin Mullins wrote:
> Well, the half-solution that was proposed awhile back... the
> listserv adds a sig to every mail with one or two FAQ links.
Whether or not a new list is created, this is a good idea. It would
be very helpful and minimally intrusive. It would almost make it
clear where the "official" FAQ was, and (I think) encourage
experienced users to flesh it out.
TomP
Vincent Fourmond
I seem to remember I proposed the idea, I can but support it ;-)