Python's popularity
walterbyrd
that python has surpassed perl in popularity, but I am not seeing it.
From what I have seen:
- in unix/linux sysadmin, perl is far more popular than python,
windows sysadmins typically don't use either.
- in web-development, php is far more popular than python - it's not
even close.
- when I did a search on dice, I found over 20X more jobs advertised
for ruby on rails developers, than for python dango developers.
- application development is dominated by java, c/c++, and maybe a
little visual basic.
- as I understand it, fortran is still the most popular language for
numberical programming.
Of course, these are just observations on my part, nothing scientific
about it. But, I can't help but wonder how python's popularity was
determined. I suspect that a lot of people use python as a secondary
skill. For example, I use ms-word, but I'm not an ms-word
professional.
Please note: I am not confusing popularity with quality. I am not
saying that php is better for web-dev, or anything like that. I am
just wondering how python is rated as being so popular, when python
does not seem to dominate anything.
Marco Mariani
> I have read that python is the world's 3rd most popular language, and
> that python has surpassed perl in popularity, but I am not seeing it.
In 20 days, you've gone from trying to import a module by using:
> load "test.py"
to questioning the popularity of python.
You have many other subject you want to enlighten us about, I suppose?
Cause I wonder what you'll come up with, next.
sk...@pobox.com
Walter> - in unix/linux sysadmin, perl is far more popular than python,
Walter> windows sysadmins typically don't use either.
Walter> - in web-development, php is far more popular than python - it's not
Walter> even close.
Walter> - when I did a search on dice, I found over 20X more jobs advertised
Walter> for ruby on rails developers, than for python dango developers.
Walter> - application development is dominated by java, c/c++, and maybe a
Walter> little visual basic.
Walter> - as I understand it, fortran is still the most popular language for
Walter> numberical programming.
Looking at specific application domains doesn't tell the entire story. If
you look back at the Tour de France results from the 80's I believe Greg
Lemond won it one year without ever winning a stage. What you are reporting
is akin to that. Fortran is almost certainly the king of numerical
programming, but Python might be #2 or #3 there (behind Matlab). I'm pretty
sure it dwarfs Perl, PHP and Ruby in that domain. In web development, while
PHP is more popular than Python, Python is probably much more popular than
Perl and Tcl. Maybe not ahead of Ruby due to RoR. etc etc.
Skip
Richard Riley
One does not have to by a language maestro to try and assess its
popularity. While his numbers or his reading of the numbers might be
open to some questions, to suggest that one needs to be totally familiar
with a language to determine its popularity is, frankly, ridiculous.
--
important and urgent problems of the technology of today are no longer the satisfactions of the primary needs or of archetypal wishes, but the reparation of the evils and damages by the technology of yesterday. ~Dennis Gabor, Innovations: Scientific, Technological and Social, 1970
Luis M. González
Sooner or later, we will remember those good old days where python was
our "secret sauce"...
Marco Mariani
> One does not have to by a language maestro to try and assess its
> popularity. While his numbers or his reading of the numbers might be
> open to some questions, to suggest that one needs to be totally familiar
> with a language to determine its popularity is, frankly, ridiculous.
I was not judging his competency. But when I am naive on a subject, I
don't usually show off like that.
The polemic intents in his previous messages are quite clear (python is
slow, py3k is an utter failure because it doesn't solve the whitespace
issue, etc), and this thread is not different. It seems like a rehash of
issues that have been dragged around here by generations of trolls for
the last 10 years.
Sorry for adding noise to the signal :-/
Steve Holden
> I have read that python is the world's 3rd most popular language, and
> that python has surpassed perl in popularity, but I am not seeing it.
The "Python has surpassed Perl" myth came from one month's results on
the TIOBE index, which does not claim to use a scientifically
justifiable methodology.
Python *is* becoming very popular. Training demand is certainly going
up. It's a great language for people whose primary career isn't
programming but who need to do some programming - for example, there are
about 40 scientists and engineers supporting the Mars Lander project
using Python code, because it's a great way to put systems together that
other engineers can understand.
I try to discourage people from getting into language pissing contests,
because they are rarely productive. The short answer is that nobody
really knows how popular the various languages are, there are simply
estimates with higher or lower credibility.
regards
Steve
--
Steve Holden +1 571 484 6266 +1 800 494 3119
Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/
r
named Guido van Rossum, it had complete dominance in it's niche,
actually Python created a niche where none existed before. Since the
advent of Ruby(Python closet competitor), Python's hold on this niche
is slipping. A lot of Ruby noobies don't even realize that most of
Ruby is an out-right plagiarism of Python. But I guess that's OK,
because Python has borrowed from other languages itself.. just not in
such a -sell your soul- kind of way as Ruby!.
Now since Python *is not* the only language on it's block, we have to
compete with our main nemesis(Ruby) for survival(I wonder if mats
would have been so revolutionary to introduce indention if Guido had
not done it first??, it seems to me he is a braces fanboy ;)
Now more than ever we must stick to the Zen and clean up Python's
warts to keep the dream alive and regain our right full crown. Python
is better than Ruby, I have no doubt in my mind, but if we let ruby
become -faster- than Python, people will gravitate away from Python.
Speed IS important even in high level languages. We must never forget
that! The war is not over just because we have Google, Nasa, and ILM.
On the Contrary, it has just begun. I believe mats is not going to
accept Ruby as 2nd best to Python, he will wage war on Pythonia. And
if we fail to preempt this attack, we shall be like the burning ships
of pearl harbor! Maybe Guido has a secret weapon up his sleeve(big
boy), but 3.0 was defiantly not the bomb!
Mats will now take advantage of the weaknesses in Py3000 and run with
them. Whispering in everyones ear how much faster Ruby is to Python.
And weather you like to hear it or not, this ROR thing is exploding,
we must counter attack this vile disgrace to Pythonia. Do not sit back
and say "well we are the best and we don't need to try any harder".
For you will be left in the evolutionary dust of Ruby. And next year,
left wanting...
We need to sound the battle cries and gather the legions. Then we
shall march across Rubonia and *raise* their cities to the ground. We
shall encompass thy house O' Ruby -- and lay waste to it! After we
slay thee, we shall breed with thy women and convert thy children. We
shall rule with an iron fist!, crushing all resistance to Python's
absolute power. Like the great kings of olde, monuments will be
erected so all generations shall be witness of our power, and glory.
""" O' Python, for the sound of thy chariots will be so fear full no
army could stand against thee!""" We shall avenge the atrocities and
hypocrocies you have brought upon this world Ruby! And then you shall
know that we are the Lord of this world, when our vengeance is cast
upon you!
I will be monitoring comp.lang.python and over the next 6 months I
will conduct a census of the users of this group. So far I have only
seen maybe 20 regulars here. I had hoped they numbered several
thousand, but i am starting to think more in the hundreds or even
less :(. I will post my findings to this group. It shall be a wake up
call for those of you who think the war is over. Get off your bums you
lazy-coach-potatos, the fight is not over yet. Do not let your eye's
become "wide shut"!!!
Truth shall be the judge...
walterbyrd
> Since the
> advent of Ruby(Python closet competitor), Python's hold on this niche
> is slipping.
About the only place I ever hear of ruby being used is web development
with RoR. When it comes to web development, it seems to me that ruby
(because of rails) is far more popular than python. It seems to me
that ruby is the niche player, and python (with fairly new frameworks)
is trying to catch up to ruby in that niche. It seems to me that the
python web framework that best competes with rails, is Django, and
Django 1.0 just came out a few months back.
> A lot of Ruby noobies don't even realize that most of
> Ruby is an out-right plagiarism of Python.
Maybe. But the rails framework seems to have a different philosophy
than the django, turbogears, or pylons, frameworks. RoR values
convention over configuration, and has a lot of "magic" whereas the
python frameworks seem to have the opposite philosophy - in those
regards. I see pros and cons to both approaches. I wonder what the
market with think?
> Now since Python *is not* the only language on it's block, we have to
> compete with our main nemesis(Ruby) for survival
I think both python and ruby will "survive." I think python is also
competing with perl in the sysadmin space - although I see perl as
being much more popular there.
Steve Holden
> I think when Python was first brought to this dark world by a genius
> named Guido van Rossum, it had complete dominance in it's niche,
> actually Python created a niche where none existed before. Since the
> advent of Ruby(Python closet competitor), Python's hold on this niche
> is slipping. A lot of Ruby noobies don't even realize that most of
> Ruby is an out-right plagiarism of Python. But I guess that's OK,
> because Python has borrowed from other languages itself.. just not in
> such a -sell your soul- kind of way as Ruby!.
>
> Now since Python *is not* the only language on it's block, we have to
> compete with our main nemesis(Ruby) for survival(I wonder if mats
> would have been so revolutionary to introduce indention if Guido had
> not done it first??, it seems to me he is a braces fanboy ;)
>
survive if any other language becomes popular. Every language borrows
from those that came before it. Terms like "outright plagiarism" don't
encourage rational debate, and make you seem like a troll who is more
interested in stirring up controversy than actually doing things to help
promote the language.
> Now more than ever we must stick to the Zen and clean up Python's
> warts to keep the dream alive and regain our right full crown. Python
> is better than Ruby, I have no doubt in my mind, but if we let ruby
> become -faster- than Python, people will gravitate away from Python.
> Speed IS important even in high level languages. We must never forget
> that! The war is not over just because we have Google, Nasa, and ILM.
> On the Contrary, it has just begun. I believe mats is not going to
> accept Ruby as 2nd best to Python, he will wage war on Pythonia. And
> if we fail to preempt this attack, we shall be like the burning ships
> of pearl harbor! Maybe Guido has a secret weapon up his sleeve(big
> boy), but 3.0 was defiantly not the bomb!
>
I have an article about the Zen coming up in "Python Magazine" so I
won't steal its thunder. Suffice it to say that people take the Zen far
too seriously. Anyone who does so undermines their own credibility as a
Python commentator. This isn't a war. Stop being childish.
> Mats will now take advantage of the weaknesses in Py3000 and run with
> them. Whispering in everyones ear how much faster Ruby is to Python.
> And weather you like to hear it or not, this ROR thing is exploding,
> we must counter attack this vile disgrace to Pythonia. Do not sit back
> and say "well we are the best and we don't need to try any harder".
> For you will be left in the evolutionary dust of Ruby. And next year,
> left wanting...
>
If all you want from a language is speed, go use C. I would avoid
assembly language though, since a modern optimizing C compiler will
often beat an assembly language programmer for execution speed, and the
programming time will definitely be shorter. But to make speed the
be-all and end-all is a witless approach. Speed is definitely not why
dynamic languages' popularity is increasing. Speed *is* still relevant
in certain areas, and completely irrelevant in others.
> We need to sound the battle cries and gather the legions. Then we
> shall march across Rubonia and *raise* their cities to the ground. We
> shall encompass thy house O' Ruby -- and lay waste to it! After we
> slay thee, we shall breed with thy women and convert thy children. We
> shall rule with an iron fist!, crushing all resistance to Python's
> absolute power. Like the great kings of olde, monuments will be
> erected so all generations shall be witness of our power, and glory.
> """ O' Python, for the sound of thy chariots will be so fear full no
> army could stand against thee!""" We shall avenge the atrocities and
> hypocrocies you have brought upon this world Ruby! And then you shall
> know that we are the Lord of this world, when our vengeance is cast
> upon you!
>
> I will be monitoring comp.lang.python and over the next 6 months I
> will conduct a census of the users of this group. So far I have only
> seen maybe 20 regulars here. I had hoped they numbered several
> thousand, but i am starting to think more in the hundreds or even
> less :(. I will post my findings to this group. It shall be a wake up
> call for those of you who think the war is over. Get off your bums you
> lazy-coach-potatos, the fight is not over yet. Do not let your eye's
> become "wide shut"!!!
>
> Truth shall be the judge...
Much more of this kind of tripe and nobody will read what you write
anyway. You will hear the plonking of a hundred thousand newsreaders
every time you post.
Tommy Grav
On Dec 22, 2008, at 12:48 PM, walterbyrd wrote:
>> Now since Python *is not* the only language on it's block, we have to
>> compete with our main nemesis(Ruby) for survival
>
> I think both python and ruby will "survive." I think python is also
> competing with perl in the sysadmin space - although I see perl as
> being much more popular there.
Python is making great headway in the physical sciences. Especially
in astronomy Python has become a real player as not only a tool for
quick and dirty calculations, but more serious number crunching using
the great numpy and scipy libraries. With Cython, I, think it will
even start
taking over some of the speed critical niche from C and Fortran.
Cheers
Tommy
r
I just look at the stats for comp.lang.python, and i am 9th place for
most post this month. That makes me completely sad. With just 50 post
so far, i am showing up on the high count. Sad, very sad. Now i have
much reason to believe that only 100 or so people follow this list :(.
Python is slipping. We must try harder, or all of Guido's work will be
for nothing!
Krishnakant
Python is best at high level calculations and as an indication, Please
note that I am leading a team on developing an accounting software which
will be modular and would suit the economic conditions of developed and
almost developed countries like India.
I find that number crunching and heavy calculations is shear programming
bliss in python.
At the front end we are using pygtk and find it very light and zippy.
And we are going to use twisted for middle layer and reportlab for
reporting.
And the development so far is pritty smooth and our programmres who
learned python for the first time are just amaised about the fact that
how easily python can do a certain thing.
So i don't know what others think but python is not just a good
scripting language (not that being a good scripting language is some
thing bad ) but also a complete enterprise ready language with given
frameworks like twisted.
happy hacking.
Krishnakant.
On Mon, 2008-12-22 at 12:59 -0500, Tommy Grav wrote:
> On Dec 22, 2008, at 12:48 PM, walterbyrd wrote:
> >> compete with our main nemesis(Ruby) for survival
> >
> > I think both python and ruby will "survive." I think python is also
> > competing with perl in the sysadmin space - although I see perl as
> > being much more popular there.
>
> in astronomy Python has become a real player as not only a tool for
> quick and dirty calculations, but more serious number crunching using
> the great numpy and scipy libraries. With Cython, I, think it will
> even start
> taking over some of the speed critical niche from C and Fortran.
>
> Cheers
> Tommy
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
r
> What makes you assume this is a zero-sum game, and that Python won't
> survive if any other language becomes popular. Every language borrows
> from those that came before it. Terms like "outright plagiarism" don't
> encourage rational debate, and make you seem like a troll who is more
> interested in stirring up controversy than actually doing things to help
> promote the language.
This is a war Steve, and i will explain why. Python does not need to
compete with perl, lisp, C, basic, etc, etc. WHY, well because python
is SO radically different than those languages. Ruby on the other
hand, took most from python, the only difference is Ruby's full OO
integration.(12.method()). Since Ruby is so similar to python we must
consider that some people who would have found only python in this
niche now could go to Ruby. I am for choices, but this is out and out
robbery!
Of course we must stand on the shoulders of greater minds than our own
to get ahead, but using someone's knowledge against them is wrong. If
Ruby want's to incorporate so many Pythonian ideas into their
language, at least put a note in the tutorial giving credit to Guido
for his wisdom. Don't use our ideas and then bash python in the next
breath!
> I have an article about the Zen coming up in "Python Magazine" so I
> won't steal its thunder. Suffice it to say that people take the Zen far
> too seriously. Anyone who does so undermines their own credibility as a
> Python commentator. This isn't a war. Stop being childish.
I was speaking to the loyalty of Pythonista's. Of course we are not
really going to slay mats, come on Steve, get real!
> If all you want from a language is speed, go use C. I would avoid
> assembly language though, since a modern optimizing C compiler will
> often beat an assembly language programmer for execution speed, and the
> programming time will definitely be shorter. But to make speed the
> be-all and end-all is a witless approach. Speed is definitely not why
> dynamic languages' popularity is increasing. Speed *is* still relevant
> in certain areas, and completely irrelevant in others.
Come on Steve, i am NOT saying speed is the only thing that matters
here! But it is very important. I never compared Python to C, that is
madness. But it must be better, faster, smarter than it's direct
competition(ruby)... you agree??
> Much more of this kind of tripe and nobody will read what you write
> anyway. You will hear the plonking of a hundred thousand newsreaders
> every time you post.
Oh Steve... Listen, my words are ment as a wake-up-call to all who
still love Python, and i believe you are one of them. Maybe old age
has slowed your hand, that's OK, Us "youngsters" will take the helm.
And be serious, do you really think this group is read by "hundreds-of-
thousands of news readers? I wish it were, but I highly doubt it.
Richard Riley
> Richard Riley wrote:
>
>> One does not have to by a language maestro to try and assess its
>> popularity. While his numbers or his reading of the numbers might be
>> open to some questions, to suggest that one needs to be totally familiar
>> with a language to determine its popularity is, frankly, ridiculous.
>
> I was not judging his competency. But when I am naive on a subject, I
> don't usually show off like that.
I do not see what is showing off about judging a languages
popularity. In many cases a languages popularity can be a useful metric
in picking a language to do a job.
> The polemic intents in his previous messages are quite clear (python
> is slow, py3k is an utter failure because it doesn't solve the
> whitespace issue, etc), and this thread is not different. It seems
> like a rehash of issues that have been dragged around here by
> generations of trolls for the last 10 years.
I find it difficult myself to accept certain criticisms of certain
things when I am close to them. This does not, however, make the
criticisms unfair or untrue or even unimportant.
>
> Sorry for adding noise to the signal :-/
--
Ellinghaus, Lance
Maybe most of us are doing real things with Python and not spending our
time on the list posting. (I normally do not post on here, but I felt I
had to now).
I have used Python since 0.9.x and have brought it into every
project/contract that I have worked on. The current project I am on
tried to get rid of it and move to Perl for all of my code.. All of
those people are gone and I am still here and so is Python. As a matter
of fact, Python use has grown greatly and we rely on it for so many of
our day to day operations, monitoring, data collection, etc.
Python is not going away just because people are not posting here. Wake
up!
BEA and IBM have converted all of their custom script language support
for WebLogic and WebSphere over to Jython because they felt Python
(interfacing with Java) was the best solution to their script language
issues. Everyone on the project I am on that works with WebLogic and
WebSphere are learning Python so they can work with it. So far, no real
complaints.
People are moving away from Perl to Python for much of their scripting,
but it will take a long time to complete. There is a lot of training,
re-coding, and trying to figure out what the original Perl code did
(ever try to go back and look at Perl code that is 2-3 years old!!!).
Yes, Ruby has taken some of the popularity out of Python, but they are
also hitting different markets. I have also read in a couple of magazine
articles that RoR is losing momentum. From what I have read, RoR is
great to create your first version, but if you need to maintain a large
codebase, it is not as easy as they thought it would be and the reuse
numbers are much lower than Python. But hey, what do I know.... Google,
Yahoo!, YouTube... I know.. tiny little tinker-toy web applications..
right?
Lance Ellinghaus
MRAB
> Steve Holden
>> What makes you assume this is a zero-sum game, and that Python won't
>> survive if any other language becomes popular. Every language borrows
>> from those that came before it. Terms like "outright plagiarism" don't
>> encourage rational debate, and make you seem like a troll who is more
>> interested in stirring up controversy than actually doing things to help
>> promote the language.
>
> This is a war Steve, and i will explain why. Python does not need to
> compete with perl, lisp, C, basic, etc, etc. WHY, well because python
> is SO radically different than those languages. Ruby on the other
> hand, took most from python, the only difference is Ruby's full OO
> integration.(12.method()). Since Ruby is so similar to python we must
> consider that some people who would have found only python in this
> niche now could go to Ruby. I am for choices, but this is out and out
> robbery!
> Of course we must stand on the shoulders of greater minds than our own
> to get ahead, but using someone's knowledge against them is wrong. If
> Ruby want's to incorporate so many Pythonian ideas into their
> language, at least put a note in the tutorial giving credit to Guido
> for his wisdom. Don't use our ideas and then bash python in the next
> breath!
>
"Pythonian"? A real Pythonista would know it's "Pythonic"! A real
Pythonista would be called "p", not "r", which sounds very Rubish(?) to
me...
walterbyrd
wrote:
> Yes, Ruby has taken some of the popularity out of Python, but they are
> also hitting different markets.
Do you mean different markets within web development, or do you mean
ruby is used mostly for web-dev, while python is used for other stuff?
r
MRAB -> '%sMuchRubyAndBasic' %'Too'
MRAB -> Method.Ruby(AttractsBraindead)
MRAB -> MyRubyAintBad
MRAB -> MuchoRubyAndBasic
Pythonian is more acceptable in the context of my sentence...
""" If Ruby want's to incorporate so many Pythonian ideas into their
language, at least put a note in the tutorial giving credit to Guido
for his wisdom."""
Pythonian.translate() -> in the domain if Python... ownership
Pythonic.translate() -> in a python style... (way of)
two radically different meaning, of course if you vocabulary reaches
that far??
Bruno Desthuilliers
> On Dec 22, 10:13 am, r <rt8...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Since the
>> advent of Ruby(Python closet competitor), Python's hold on this niche
>> is slipping.
>
> About the only place I ever hear of ruby being used is web development
> with RoR. When it comes to web development, it seems to me that ruby
> (because of rails) is far more popular
s/popular/hyped/
But being (perhaps over ?) hyped too soon is not necessarily the best
move...
> than python. It seems to me
> that ruby is the niche player, and python (with fairly new frameworks)
> is trying to catch up to ruby in that niche. It seems to me that the
> python web framework that best competes with rails, is Django, and
> Django 1.0 just came out a few months back.
Fooled by version numbers ? Heck, Python 3.0 just came out a couple
weeks ago, and PHP is already at 6.x !-)
FWIW, I wrote my first django app years ago (and it's still in production).
>> A lot of Ruby noobies don't even realize that most of
>> Ruby is an out-right plagiarism of Python.
I don't know who asserted such a stupid thing, but he manages to be
equally clueless wrt/ both languages.
> Maybe. But the rails framework seems to have a different philosophy
> than the django, turbogears, or pylons, frameworks. RoR values
> convention over configuration, and has a lot of "magic" whereas the
> python frameworks seem to have the opposite philosophy - in those
> regards. I see pros and cons to both approaches. I wonder what the
> market with think?
My actual CTO is a big Ruby/Rails fan, yet he settled on Python/Django
for our current 'big' project. Wonder why ?
Luis M. González
Dude, calm down... There is no war here.
Please turn off your computer, go take a walk for awhile, experience
some real life in the outer world, and then think about this again.
Python is cool language, Ruby too. We are all happy and competition is
good.
Nobody will win this "war" and the loser won't be annihilated. I hope
there will be some healthy cross-pollination.
There is actually, for example python borrowed list-comprehensions
from haskell and I've never heard any haskell fan calling for jihad.
Did you know that people are looking forward to use pypy to create a
fast ruby implementation?
Pypy is being developed by python developers and they will be happy to
see a ruby, perl, logo or whatever language implemented with pypy. We
are talking about tools, not religions.
Those who use them to create useful, real life applications know it.
Soon, we will be able to use python libraries from ruby and the other
way around. the differences will be just a matter of taste, different
syntax to achieve the same tasks.
Luis
r
We see where you stand. And also see that by removing your comments
from the archive in 5 days, how small your acorns really are.
r
Your right, Python needs Ruby, and do you know why??? The same reason
MS needs, Mac & Linux. So they do not fall asleep at the wheel! This
keeps MS on there toes(although still no explanation for their piss-
poor product).
Python needs Ruby so we don't fall asleep. Ruby may be the best thing
that happened to Python. Wake Up people! The writing is on the Wall!
Robert Kern
> r <rt8...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> We see where you stand. And also see that by removing your comments
>> from the archive in 5 days, how small your acorns really are.
>
> entirety of Usenet, correct?
It's the predominant archive of USENET, but it's not the only one that respects
your X-No-Archive header. GMane, for example, will respect it if the list admin
has not requested otherwise.
--
Robert Kern
"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma
that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had
an underlying truth."
-- Umberto Eco
r
> r <rt8...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > We see where you stand. And also see that by removing your comments
> > from the archive in 5 days, how small your acorns really are.
>
> entirety of Usenet, correct?
Absolutely, but why do you wish to remove your post. Do you not stand
behind everything you say? I do, and if a make a mistake i will
apologize for it. I have no reason to hide my words from anybody. They
will be here from now to eternity.
This just makes your thoughts look more "drive-by-ish" to me. Thats
all.
r
> > from the archive in 5 days, how small your acorns really are.
>
> who themselves is using a generic gmail address w/o their real name
> attached to it. If I didn't care about using a proper NNTP client, I
> could quite easily create some dufus account on Gmail and post through
> that just like you did - I'm sure that'd really increase my credibility!
Would you trust my words more if i used a name like "Thurstan Howell
III".... Come on, don't tell me you are that shallow. To attack my
credibility solely based on my user name is the sport of small minded
people. Surely you can bring more thought, and intelligence to this
thread than that?...
ajaksu
> Oh Steve... Listen, my words are ment as a wake-up-call to all who
r, can you do me a favor? Go read the archives of this newsgroup for a
month or two, then come back with some perspective. I hope that will
make your posts a little less nonsensical and annoying. My words are
'ment' as a shut-up-call, you make as much sense as jeff here:
http://www.python.org/doc/humor/#nolo-contendre
Daniel
P.S.: You think Steve 'one of those who love python'? Geez, he's the
one that made us weak in this war by sabotaging a major source of
revenue for Python! -> http://pyfound.blogspot.com/2006/04/python-25-licensing-change.html
Joe Strout
> Also worthy of mention:
> I've seen python pre-installed on consumer HP desktops (I think as
> part of a backup/restore script, but I'm not sure)
It's pre-installed on every Mac (both desktop and laptop), too.
Cheers,
- Joe
walterbyrd
<bdesth.quelquech...@free.quelquepart.fr> wrote:
> > When it comes to web development, it seems to me that ruby
> > (because of rails) is far more popular
>
> s/popular/hyped/
I'm not so sure. Go to dice.com, enter "ruby rails" no quotes, search
all words, job titles only - I got 86 hits, and another five hits when
I searched for "RoR."
Do the same search, but substitue "python django" for "ruby rails" and
I get 3 hits.
Doing the search for just "ruby" and I get 121 hits. Doing the search
for just "python" and I get 61 hits. Just "rails" and get 94 hits,
just "django" and I get 4 hits.
Not scientific, but there is substantial difference.
> Fooled by version numbers ?
No, but I am giving django the benefit of the doubt. The django
project told people all along that django was not to be considered
production ready before 1.0. I will accept that some people decided to
wait until 1.0 came out to do any production development. Maybe django
is only lagging because 1.0 just came out?
> My actual CTO is a big Ruby/Rails fan, yet he settled on Python/Django
> for our current 'big' project. Wonder why ?
Not knowing much about RoR: yes, I wonder why? Is it because python
has a cleaner syntax? Or what?
r
I am using a Vista HP right now that came pre-installed with Python.
Blew my mind when i found out :). This single reason just reinforced
my belief in Python. Now if we can get Python on every windows
platform...
r
> to some random & anonymous account than there is to someone due to
> not having X-No-Archive. You are no more accountable for your words than
> I am. So you might be throwing stones at my use of X-No-Archive, but
> you are living in a glass house.
>
> And for the record, the obfuscation of my email address and the use of
> X-No-Archive has a lot more to do with random people being able to
> track me via the internet than it does with believing/not believing what
> I'm saying. If one wanted to put in some small bit of effort, it isn't
> particularly difficult to track down usenet posts authored by me from
> 15ish years ago, but I raise the bar so that any random joker probably won't
> bother (and making the reverse mapping - knowing my real identity and then
> looking for recent net activity - is much more difficult to do).
An exercise in thought...
To go a bit further, what if we could post a picture of ourselves on
the Usenet?? What would stop me from posting a picture of someone else
besides myself? NOTHING!
Do not put your trust in such weak beliefs. My name and picture mean
squat on a this medium. If you want to validate my intelligence, use
my words, not shallow assumptions. Your logic is like that fruitcake
my auntie makes every Christmas. Please put more thought into you
post.
My words are here and they will stay here, sure some may disagree with
my thoughts, but i will not be ashamed of them! Thats called having
"brass Cohones" mi hijo.
r
but I raise the bar so that any random joker probably won't bother
(and making the reverse mapping - knowing my real identity and then
looking for recent net activity - is much more difficult to do)
You are the epitimy of an internet troll. A troll tries to hide his
identity. Why are you so concerned about your TRUE identity. Are the
FEDS after you, maybe it's the Martians i do not know? Did they take
into their spaceship and do things to you? Do you wear a aluminum foil
hat. Look out for those cell towers, there mind control devices
hahaha. Thanks for the good laugh.
Aaron Brady
Us small-minded people have hopes and dreams just like anybody else,
Thurston.
r
> Us small-minded people have hopes and dreams just like anybody else,
> Thurston.
Now thats the kind of friendly banter this group could use. Instead of
people acting as if their bowel-movements smell like bakery fresh
cinnamon rolls!
Steven D'Aprano
> I have read that python is the world's 3rd most popular language
Oh, well if it's written down it must be true.
> But, I can't help but wonder how python's popularity was determined.
Why don't you ask the people who made the claim?
--
Steven
Steve Holden
[...]>> Fooled by version numbers ?
>
> No, but I am giving django the benefit of the doubt. The django
> project told people all along that django was not to be considered
> production ready before 1.0. I will accept that some people decided to
> wait until 1.0 came out to do any production development. Maybe django
> is only lagging because 1.0 just came out?
>
stable - they test so well that many people did indeed rely on the trunk
for production systems.
They did, sensibly in my opinion, refuse to promise that the 1.0 release
would be backward-compatible with the development versions. Indeed they
frequently changed the trunk in incompatible ways while they were
working to find the best APIs, and this only affected those brave or
stupid enough to update their Django installation automatically as
checkins were made. Anyone would expect trouble doing that, and yet the
affected sites were usually easily fixed, thanks to the project's
conscientious maintenance of a list of incompatible changes.
>> My actual CTO is a big Ruby/Rails fan, yet he settled on Python/Django
>> for our current 'big' project. Wonder why ?
>
> Not knowing much about RoR: yes, I wonder why? Is it because python
> has a cleaner syntax? Or what?
It's because he decided that Django was the best tool for the particular
job, making him unusually open-minded for a member of the pointy-haired
species. Unlike some on this list he doesn't let his prejudices blind
him to reality.
regards
Steve
--
Steve Holden +1 571 484 6266 +1 800 494 3119
Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/
Steven D'Aprano
> Walter,
> I just look at the stats for comp.lang.python, and i am 9th place for
> most post this month.
And about 9,000th place for useful information.
--
Steven
Steve Holden
Pot, meet kettle. Kettle: pot.
Ellinghaus, Lance
> > Alvin ONeal wrote:
> > > Also worthy of mention:
> > > I've seen python pre-installed on consumer HP desktops (I think as
> > > part of a backup/restore script, but I'm not sure)
> >
> > It's pre-installed on every Mac (both desktop and laptop), too.
> I am using a Vista HP right now that came pre-installed with Python.
> Blew my mind when i found out :). This single reason just reinforced
> my belief in Python. Now if we can get Python on every windows
> platform...
Check out IronPython. Fully supported and FUNDED by Micro$oft!
http://www.codeplex.com/Wiki/View.aspx?ProjectName=IronPython
Lance Ellinghaus
Tommy Grav
On Dec 22, 2008, at 5:16 PM, Joe Strout wrote:
> Alvin ONeal wrote:
>
>> Also worthy of mention:
>> I've seen python pre-installed on consumer HP desktops (I think as
>> part of a backup/restore script, but I'm not sure)
>
> It's pre-installed on every Mac (both desktop and laptop), too.
Mac and a lot of linux distros use python as an integral part of their
OS development, so most of these actually come with some python
pre-installed (and one should not remove it unless you want to screw
up your OS).
Cheers
Tommy
r
I think you missed my point Steven, I was in no way proud of the fact
of my 9th place rating. It just proves my point to the small following
of this group. And frankly makes me feel bad.
Ben Kaplan
That's just because most of us don't say anything unless we have
something useful to say. We prefer to let the experts answer the
questions, but we read the threads so we can benefit from them. Steven
was pointing out that the number of posts you made has nothing to do
with the overall audience of this list or how much real content you
are contributing
Grant Edwards
IIRC, Python came pre-installed on my IBM Thinkpad. However,
it wasn't anyplace the average user would stumble across it...
--
Grant
r
r
> That's just because most of us don't say anything unless we have
> something useful to say. We prefer to let the experts answer the
> questions, but we read the threads so we can benefit from them.
OK Ben, So you are saying
1.) do not question the gods!
2.) speak only when spoken to!
3.) do not have an opinion!
Somehow this reminds me of some old and brainwashing religions, Not an
OSS project. Just observations Ben.
Rhodri James
> IIRC, Python came pre-installed on my IBM Thinkpad. However,
> it wasn't anyplace the average user would stumble across it...
The suggestively named "IBMTOOLS" directory, I believe :-)
--
Rhodri James *-* Wildebeeste Herder to the Masses
Arnaud Delobelle
> If you look back at the Tour de France results from the 80's I
> believe Greg Lemond won it one year without ever winning a stage.
Well I think it was actually in 1990, his last win sadly.
--
Arnaud
Bruno Desthuilliers
> walterbyrd wrote:
> [...]>> Fooled by version numbers ?
>> No, but I am giving django the benefit of the doubt. The django
>> project told people all along that django was not to be considered
>> production ready before 1.0. I will accept that some people decided to
>> wait until 1.0 came out to do any production development. Maybe django
>> is only lagging because 1.0 just came out?
>>
> The Django people said no such thing. They maintained the trunk as
> stable - they test so well that many people did indeed rely on the trunk
> for production systems.
Indeed - my first Django app has been in production for more than 3
years now.
(snip)
>>> My actual CTO is a big Ruby/Rails fan, yet he settled on Python/Django
>>> for our current 'big' project. Wonder why ?
>> Not knowing much about RoR: yes, I wonder why? Is it because python
>> has a cleaner syntax? Or what?
>
> It's because he decided that Django was the best tool for the particular
> job, making him unusually open-minded for a member of the pointy-haired
> species.
Being a CTO doesn't necessarily makes you pointy-haired !-) We're a
small shop (12 peoples), and the guy is a developper too (and yes, an
active one).
> Unlike some on this list he doesn't let his prejudices blind
> him to reality.
Yes - that was the point.
Hendrik van Rooyen
> The writing is on the Wall!
Yes it is, and as always, it says :
Mene, mene, tekel epharsim.
If my protestant upbringing hasn't failed me,
it means:
Weighed, and found wanting.
- Hendrik
Hendrik van Rooyen
>Now thats the kind of friendly banter this group could use. Instead of
>people acting as if their bowel-movements smell like bakery fresh
>cinnamon rolls!
What an amazing thing to say!
Doesn't yours?
- Hendrik
Aaron Brady
<rerun>You think your ships don't sink?</rerun>
Lie Ryan
> On Dec 22, 10:09 pm, Ben Kaplan <bs...@case.edu> wrote:
>> That's just because most of us don't say anything unless we have
>> something useful to say. We prefer to let the experts answer the
>> questions, but we read the threads so we can benefit from them.
>
> OK Ben, So you are saying
>
> 1.) do not question the gods!
Hmmm... when we talk about something we don't know, only trash would come
out of our mouth.
> 2.) speak only when spoken to!
He (Ben) does not say anything remotely like that.
> 3.) do not have an opinion!
Again, you're adding sauce, meat, beef, and spices to his statement.
> Somehow this reminds me of some old and brainwashing religions, Not an
> OSS project. Just observations Ben.
Isn't it you that have been accused of religionizing python by many
people in this list?
Thorsten Kampe
> Steve Holden
> > What makes you assume this is a zero-sum game, and that Python won't
> > survive if any other language becomes popular. Every language borrows
> > from those that came before it. Terms like "outright plagiarism" don't
> > encourage rational debate, and make you seem like a troll who is more
> > interested in stirring up controversy than actually doing things to help
> > promote the language.
>
> This is a war Steve, and i will explain why. Python does not need to
> compete with perl, lisp, C, basic, etc, etc. WHY, well because python
> is SO radically different than those languages. Ruby on the other
> hand, took most from python, the only difference is Ruby's full OO
> integration.(12.method()). Since Ruby is so similar to python [...]
You don't have a single clue about neither Python nor Ruby:
'According to the Ruby FAQ, "If you like Perl, you will like Ruby and be
right at home with its syntax. [...] If you like Python, you may or may
not be put off by the huge difference in design philosophy between
Python and Ruby/Perl."'[1]
Thorsten
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_(programming_language)#Semantics
Adrian Cherry
news:ae1bb365-7755-4c5f...@i20g2000prf.googlegro
ups.com:
>
> Oh Steve... Listen, my words are ment as a wake-up-call to
> all who still love Python, and i believe you are one of
> them. Maybe old age has slowed your hand, that's OK, Us
> "youngsters" will take the helm. And be serious, do you
> really think this group is read by "hundreds-of- thousands
> of news readers? I wish it were, but I highly doubt it.
>
Thus spake the artilleryman from Horsell Common!
Adrian Cherry
r
Thats "Thurstan", thank you very much! :)
r
> > identity. Why are you so concerned about your TRUE identity. Are the
>
> to ascertain my true identity, if one actually cares. OTOH, that's
> *not* the case with you. Who is hiding now?
I told you, my name is Thurstan Howell III. Do you want to know my
favorite color too?
r
> 'According to the Ruby FAQ, "If you like Perl, you will like Ruby and be
> right at home with its syntax. [...] If you like Python, you may or may
> not be put off by the huge difference in design philosophy between
> Python and Ruby/Perl."'[1]
So you read the preface to the tut and that somehow makes you more
than a R00b n00b? Come on!
r
You're the one who keeps bringing up the need to spread python. For
most people, this is a forum to ask questions and have experts respond
to them. Most people who post here aren't looking for your opinion,
they want answers. If you know the answer to a question, answer it. If
not, read the answers of people who have seen it before. When you post
your opinions, you're just creating more noise.
School time son,
This forum is much more than a question answer session, son. Sure
people are welcome to ask a Python related question. But this forum is
really the main highway of Python development and future. If your a
n00b go to the "Python forum.org", you will feel more comfy over
there.
If you have no opinion(Benjamin) thats your perogitive, don't tell me
how to live my life, or what "I" should do when i visit this forum. Do
I go to any of "your" threads and start a ruckus? NO, because if i do
not like what you are saying I will just ignore it. Take an example
son!
Sure i may have went off in thread, by i have kept my thought true to
the thread subject. A troll go's from thread to thread posting off
subject insults and attacks on other posters... hmmm, i have seen some
of those kind in this thread?? Know of who i speak, Bennie?
Pierre-Alain Dorange
> > I've already stated, and you've already proven, that it's pretty trivial
> > to ascertain my true identity, if one actually cares. OTOH, that's
> > *not* the case with you. Who is hiding now?
>
> I told you, my name is Thurstan Howell III. Do you want to know my
> favorite color too?
Only if it's pythonic.
--
Pierre-Alain Dorange <http://microwar.sourceforge.net/>
Ce message est sous licence Creative Commons "by-nc-sa-2.0"
<http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.0/fr/>
Steven D'Aprano
replied to Thorsten Kampe and said:
> Thats "Thurstan", thank you very much! :)
I think Thorsten knows how to spell his own name.
--
Steven
r
OK Steven, you caught me fair and square. This is my first mistake and
i will admit it. Sorry "Thorsten"