Formatting ASCII to be read by Windows NotePad
UnRiel
when I FTP the files to my Windows XP PC and try to read them in
Notepad, there is clearly no line wrap that Notepad understands. If I
otherwise read the file into WordPad first, save the file, then open
into Notepad, the formatting presents correctly.
I have generated the ASCII files using a simple 'print' command to a
file I generate using an 'open' command. I have tried both the newline
\n and the carriage return \r format characters.
Before I begin experiment with other characters, does anyone have a
solution for me gained from similar experience?
Thanks!
RedGrittyBrick
Use ASCII mode rather than binary when using FTP to transfer text files
from a Unix/Linux environment to a DOS/Windows environment. That way FTP
transforms line-endings to the ones needed by the target platform.
--
RGB
Sherman Pendley
> I have a nice PERL script I use to generate CISCO configurations
No need to shout - neither Perl nor Cisco are acronyms.
> when I FTP the files to my Windows XP PC and try to read them in
> Notepad, there is clearly no line wrap that Notepad understands. If I
> otherwise read the file into WordPad first, save the file, then open
> into Notepad, the formatting presents correctly.
Transfer the files in text mode. That will translate the line endings
as needed.
sherm--
--
My blog: http://shermspace.blogspot.com
Cocoa programming in Perl: http://camelbones.sourceforge.net
Waylen Gumbal
> UnRiel <bdw...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > I have a nice PERL script I use to generate CISCO configurations
>
> No need to shout - neither Perl nor Cisco are acronyms.
I don't think two all-caps words in a sentence that's otherwise properly
cased really constitutes shouting.
> > when I FTP the files to my Windows XP PC and try to read them in
> > Notepad, there is clearly no line wrap that Notepad understands. If
> > I
> > otherwise read the file into WordPad first, save the file, then open
> > into Notepad, the formatting presents correctly.
>
> Transfer the files in text mode. That will translate the line endings
> as needed.
While it is common to use ASCII mode one should still take care, as this
isn't always guarenteed to work. There used (still are?) issues with
this when uploading to MacOS based servers, for example.
--
wg
UnRiel
wrote:
Thanks to all. The ASCII mode FTP worked.
Sherman Pendley
> Sherman Pendley wrote:
>> UnRiel <bdw...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> > I have a nice PERL script I use to generate CISCO configurations
>>
>> No need to shout - neither Perl nor Cisco are acronyms.
>
> I don't think two all-caps words in a sentence that's otherwise properly
> cased really constitutes shouting.
It's shouting those words.
>> Transfer the files in text mode. That will translate the line endings
>> as needed.
>
> While it is common to use ASCII mode one should still take care, as this
> isn't always guarenteed to work. There used (still are?) issues with
> this when uploading to MacOS based servers, for example.
Such as?
Waylen Gumbal
> "Waylen Gumbal" <wgu...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > Sherman Pendley wrote:
> > > UnRiel <bdw...@gmail.com> writes:
> > >
> > > > I have a nice PERL script I use to generate CISCO configurations
> > >
> > > No need to shout - neither Perl nor Cisco are acronyms.
> >
> > I don't think two all-caps words in a sentence that's otherwise
> > properly cased really constitutes shouting.
>
> It's shouting those words.
Not in that context it wasn't.
> > > Transfer the files in text mode. That will translate the line
> > > endings as needed.
> >
> > While it is common to use ASCII mode one should still take care, as
> > this isn't always guarenteed to work. There used (still are?) issues
> > with this when uploading to MacOS based servers, for example.
>
> Such as?
I've had issues in the past uploading to a MacOS based ftp server
(remember that Mac uses \r for line endings, where as Win32 uses \r\n,
and most Linux and Unix systems use \n) and when uploading in "ASCII"
mode, the line endings became \n instead of \r (this happened with 3
different ftp clients, including the command line ftp client, so I
attribute the problem likely was the server wasn't properly telling the
client what sort of platform it was (what line endings it used.)
I'm sure theres other examples of this problem; it can come from
improperly configured ftp servers or clients too.
--
wg
Sherman Pendley
> Sherman Pendley wrote:
>> "Waylen Gumbal" <wgu...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> > Sherman Pendley wrote:
>> > > UnRiel <bdw...@gmail.com> writes:
>> > >
>> > > > I have a nice PERL script I use to generate CISCO configurations
>> > >
>> > > No need to shout - neither Perl nor Cisco are acronyms.
>> >
>> > I don't think two all-caps words in a sentence that's otherwise
>> > properly cased really constitutes shouting.
>>
>> It's shouting those words.
>
> Not in that context it wasn't.
You must be new to usenet. All caps is considered shouting here,
unless that's the correct spelling of a word or acronym, and as I
said, that applies to neither Perl nor Cisco.
>> > > Transfer the files in text mode. That will translate the line
>> > > endings as needed.
>> >
>> > While it is common to use ASCII mode one should still take care, as
>> > this isn't always guarenteed to work. There used (still are?) issues
>> > with this when uploading to MacOS based servers, for example.
>>
>> Such as?
>
> I've had issues in the past uploading to a MacOS based ftp server
> (remember that Mac uses \r for line endings, where as Win32 uses \r\n,
> and most Linux and Unix systems use \n)
I've been using a Mac for ten years, and I wrote the readme.macosx
that's included with Perl. So spare me the lectures.
Yes, I do remember that MacOS once, many years ago when "classic"
MacOS was relevant, used to use \r. Mac OS X uses \n, just like any
other Unix, as documented here:
<http://developer.apple.com/documentation/MacOSX/Conceptual/BPFileSystem/Articles/FileSystemGuidelines.html>
<http://tinyurl.com/58w7dy>
This ain't your grandpa's Mac any more. Try to keep up, OK?
> and when uploading in "ASCII"
> mode, the line endings became \n instead of \r (this happened with 3
> different ftp clients, including the command line ftp client, so I
> attribute the problem likely was the server wasn't properly telling the
> client what sort of platform it was (what line endings it used.)
You're beginning to try my patience. This is little more than "it
didn't work." What *specific* server app were you connecting to? What
client were you using? What version of both?
Note that according to RFC 959, the client sends \r\n pairs in ASCII
mode, which the server translates to its native format. Because a
"neutral" format is used in transit, neither client nor server is
aware, nor needs to be aware of the native format used by the other,
by design. Your attribution of the problem, as you wrote it above,
makes no sense.
Do you have anything *useful* to say here? Do you actually understand
the FTP protocol? Did you actually debug the problem you had? Or are
you basically just saying "I had a problem in the past, and it must
have been the Mac at the other end because Macs are weird"?
Bill H
>
> >> > > > I have a nice PERL script I use to generate CISCO configurations
>
> >> > > No need to shout - neither Perl nor Cisco are acronyms.
>
> >> > I don't think two all-caps words in a sentence that's otherwise
> >> > properly cased really constitutes shouting.
>
> >> It's shouting those words.
>
> > Not in that context it wasn't.
>
> You must be new to usenet. All caps is considered shouting here,
> unless that's the correct spelling of a word or acronym, and as I
> said, that applies to neither Perl nor Cisco.
>
> >> > > Transfer the files in text mode. That will translate the line
> >> > > endings as needed.
>
> >> > While it is common to use ASCII mode one should still take care, as
> >> > this isn't always guarenteed to work. There used (still are?) issues
> >> > with this when uploading to MacOS based servers, for example.
>
> >> Such as?
>
> > I've had issues in the past uploading to a MacOS based ftp server
> > (remember that Mac uses \r for line endings, where as Win32 uses \r\n,
> > and most Linux and Unix systems use \n)
>
> I've been using a Mac for ten years, and I wrote the readme.macosx
> that's included with Perl. So spare me the lectures.
>
> Yes, I do remember that MacOS once, many years ago when "classic"
> MacOS was relevant, used to use \r. Mac OS X uses \n, just like any
> other Unix, as documented here:
>
> <http://tinyurl.com/58w7dy>
>
> This ain't your grandpa's Mac any more. Try to keep up, OK?
>
> > and when uploading in "ASCII"
> > mode, the line endings became \n instead of \r (this happened with 3
> > different ftp clients, including the command line ftp client, so I
> > attribute the problem likely was the server wasn't properly telling the
> > client what sort of platform it was (what line endings it used.)
>
> You're beginning to try my patience. This is little more than "it
> didn't work." What *specific* server app were you connecting to? What
> client were you using? What version of both?
>
> Note that according to RFC 959, the client sends \r\n pairs in ASCII
> mode, which the server translates to its native format. Because a
> "neutral" format is used in transit, neither client nor server is
> aware, nor needs to be aware of the native format used by the other,
> by design. Your attribution of the problem, as you wrote it above,
> makes no sense.
>
> Do you have anything *useful* to say here? Do you actually understand
> the FTP protocol? Did you actually debug the problem you had? Or are
> you basically just saying "I had a problem in the past, and it must
> have been the Mac at the other end because Macs are weird"?
>
> sherm--
>
> --
> My blog:http://shermspace.blogspot.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
I'll jump on the Mac ftp issue bandwagon and even make it pertain to
perl. I have a couple of clients using DreamWeaver in OS X that,
whether due to settings or the OS, when they post their webpages or
perl scripts to one of my linux servers they wind up with the "\r" in
the scripts and a blank line after every line in the html files. The
servers themselves don't care and it all works good, but if I then d/l
the files via ftp (ascii mode) to the pc the perl scripts loose all
line feeds (i have to open and save using edit.com to get them back)
and the extra blank lines in html stay are still there. Now one of
these same clients has used fetch (or the OS X equivalent) and this
problem went away, so it may be a Dreamweaver issue.
I also know, on a few of the Mac servers that I have had the "joy" of
moving websites off of, when d/ling the files via ftp, no setting
change (ascii or binary) will ever fix the lack of line feeds in the
files I receive from the Mac.
Bill H
Sherman Pendley
> On Jul 4, 10:56 am, Sherman Pendley <spamt...@dot-app.org> wrote:
>>
>> Yes, I do remember that MacOS once, many years ago when "classic"
>> MacOS was relevant, used to use \r. Mac OS X uses \n, just like any
>> other Unix, as documented here:
>>
>> <http://developer.apple.com/documentation/MacOSX/Conceptual/BPFileSyst...>
>> <http://tinyurl.com/58w7dy>
>
> I'll jump on the Mac ftp issue bandwagon and even make it pertain to
> perl. I have a couple of clients using DreamWeaver in OS X that,
> whether due to settings or the OS, when they post their webpages or
> perl scripts to one of my linux servers they wind up with the "\r" in
> the scripts and a blank line after every line in the html files.
Dreamweaver's default setting is incorrect for Mac OS X - it still
defaults to the old format with \r. Fortunately, a quick trip to its
preferences can fix that.
> Now one of
> these same clients has used fetch (or the OS X equivalent) and this
> problem went away, so it may be a Dreamweaver issue.
I think Transmit is a popular GUI FTP client; I use ncftp in a
terminal window myself. It sounds to me like Dreamweaver isn't using
ASCII mode transfers.
> I also know, on a few of the Mac servers that I have had the "joy" of
> moving websites off of, when d/ling the files via ftp, no setting
> change (ascii or binary) will ever fix the lack of line feeds in the
> files I receive from the Mac.
Were the files in the server's native format, using \n, to begin with?
If they weren't, I wouldn't expect a Mac or any other Unix server to
be able to do the translation. That's not a problem with Mac servers in
particular, it's just how ASCII transfers work in FTP; they're meant
to translate correctly-formatted files, not fix broken files.
Waylen Gumbal
> "Waylen Gumbal" <wgu...@gmail.com> writes:
> > Sherman Pendley wrote:
> > > "Waylen Gumbal" <wgu...@gmail.com> writes:
> > > > Sherman Pendley wrote:
> > > > > UnRiel <bdw...@gmail.com> writes:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I have a nice PERL script I use to generate CISCO
> > > > > > configurations
> > > > >
> > > > > No need to shout - neither Perl nor Cisco are acronyms.
> > > >
> > > > I don't think two all-caps words in a sentence that's otherwise
> > > > properly cased really constitutes shouting.
> > >
> > > It's shouting those words.
> >
> > Not in that context it wasn't.
>
> You must be new to usenet. All caps is considered shouting here,
> unless that's the correct spelling of a word or acronym, and as I
> said, that applies to neither Perl nor Cisco.
I am not new to the usenet. Anyone who made it past the 4th grade can
see shouting wasn't his intention. Please stop pretending you didn't
know it wasn't his intention.
> > > > > Transfer the files in text mode. That will translate the line
> > > > > endings as needed.
> > > >
> > > > While it is common to use ASCII mode one should still take care,
> > > > as
> > > > this isn't always guarenteed to work. There used (still are?)
> > > > issues with this when uploading to MacOS based servers, for
> > > > example.
> > >
> > > Such as?
> >
> > I've had issues in the past uploading to a MacOS based ftp server
> > (remember that Mac uses \r for line endings, where as Win32 uses
> > \r\n, and most Linux and Unix systems use \n)
>
> Yes, I do remember that MacOS once, many years ago when "classic"
> MacOS was relevant, used to use \r. Mac OS X uses \n, just like any
> other Unix, as documented here:
That doesn't matter. It can be a client and/or server software issue.
> This ain't your grandpa's Mac any more. Try to keep up, OK?
Non sequitur. It's not so much the OS, but programs (client or server)
that are incorrectly configured. You can never take for granted that a
remote FTP server you are given to connect to will be setup right. Same
goes for the default settings of a given client.
> > and when uploading in "ASCII"
> > mode, the line endings became \n instead of \r (this happened with 3
> > different ftp clients, including the command line ftp client, so I
> > attribute the problem likely was the server wasn't properly telling
> > the client what sort of platform it was (what line endings it used.)
>
> Note that according to RFC 959, the client sends \r\n pairs in ASCII
> mode, which the server translates to its native format. Because a
> "neutral" format is used in transit, neither client nor server is
> aware, nor needs to be aware of the native format used by the other,
> by design. Your attribution of the problem, as you wrote it above,
> makes no sense.
Are you aware that not all software necessarily (properly) follows an
RFC that it should be following? You can never take for granted that any
piece of software you install will work perfectly. Checking in advance
helps, but there can always be suprises even reviewers can miss.
> Do you have anything *useful* to say here?
Are you going through some rough times? Else, why do you find it so
necessary to so unpleasant to others. I don't recall ever doing anything
cross towards you, so I don't know why you can't simply discuss things
in a calmer tone.
--
wg
Sherman Pendley
> Are you going through some rough times? Else, why do you find it so
> necessary to so unpleasant to others.
I find it necessary to correct nonsense when I see it, for the sake of
those who might otherwise be misled into believing it. If you find
that unpleasant, don't post nonsense.
Waylen Gumbal
> "Waylen Gumbal" <wgu...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > Are you going through some rough times? Else, why do you find it so
> > necessary to so unpleasant to others.
>
> I find it necessary to correct nonsense when I see it, for the sake of
> those who might otherwise be misled into believing it. If you find
> that unpleasant, don't post nonsense.
I didn't post nonsense. Do you act this same way in real life too?
I'm obviously not the only to have run into such issues (regardless of
destination and source platforms), so I don't know where you get off
taking that stance.
--
wg
Sherman Pendley
> Sherman Pendley wrote:
>> "Waylen Gumbal" <wgu...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> > Are you going through some rough times? Else, why do you find it so
>> > necessary to so unpleasant to others.
>>
>> I find it necessary to correct nonsense when I see it, for the sake of
>> those who might otherwise be misled into believing it. If you find
>> that unpleasant, don't post nonsense.
>
> I didn't post nonsense.
So where, exactly, did you post a specific problem with a specific
app, as opposed to vague hand-waving about an entire platform that you
obviously know very little about?
> Do you act this same way in real life too?
Life is no less real when you're typing to people than when you're
talking face to face with them. And yes, I call BS when and where I
see it, online or off. That does tend to upset people who continually
spout BS - but I couldn't care less about their opinions anyway, so
that's fine by me.
> I'm obviously not the only to have run into such issues (regardless of
> destination and source platforms), so I don't know where you get off
> taking that stance.
I'm taking it because I haven't yet seen an accurate description of
the problem you claim to have had. First you claim that a particular
OS may have problems, then when I asked for details you gave me a
bunch of hand-waving about an FTP server supposedly not informing the
client what it was, when in fact *no* FTP server does so for ASCII
transfers, nor needs to.
In this whole sorry thread, I've yet to see a single coherent, logical
description of the problem you supposedly had. Nor have I seen a bit
of evidence that you know anything about the FTP protocol. All I've
seen is a bunch of semi-religious FUD about how Macs "have problems"
with FTP.
You really should read this, if you intend to discuss technical issues
with adults:
<http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html>
Waylen Gumbal
> "Waylen Gumbal" <wgu...@gmail.com> writes:
> > Sherman Pendley wrote:
> > > "Waylen Gumbal" <wgu...@gmail.com> writes:
> > >
> > > > Are you going through some rough times? Else, why do you find it
> > > > so
> > > > necessary to so unpleasant to others.
> > >
> > > I find it necessary to correct nonsense when I see it, for the
> > > sake
> > > of those who might otherwise be misled into believing it. If you
> > > find that unpleasant, don't post nonsense.
> >
> > I didn't post nonsense.
>
> So where, exactly, did you post a specific problem with a specific
> app, as opposed to vague hand-waving about an entire platform that you
> obviously know very little about?
I did post a specific problem; EOL translation between platforms, in the
realm of FTP, based on my own experience.
> > I'm obviously not the only to have run into such issues (regardless
> > of destination and source platforms), so I don't know where you get
> > off taking that stance.
>
> I'm taking it because I haven't yet seen an accurate description of
> the problem you claim to have had.
I was just tell of my own experience regarding EOL.
> First you claim that a particular OS may have problems,
I never made any such claim.
> then when I asked for details you gave me a bunch of hand-waving
> about an FTP server supposedly not informing the client what it was,
> when in fact *no* FTP server does so for ASCII transfers, nor needs
> to.
Because it was some time ago. I was just recalling an experience. Why do
you care so damn much anyways? Who asked you to be a lawyer?
> In this whole sorry thread, I've yet to see a single coherent, logical
> description of the problem you supposedly had. Nor have I seen a bit
> of evidence that you know anything about the FTP protocol.
I don't have to prove any thing. I know how FTP work and I know there
are many server and client implementations released over the years that
could misbehave when it comes to converting EOLs.
> You really should read this, if you intend to discuss technical issues
> with adults:
Maybe you should learn to act like an adult, instead of jumping all over
someone's back as if you're drug sniffing canine. There is no reason to
act this way, and in many people's eyes you come off as entirely
condescending. Please be civil of fsck off.
--
wg
Sherman Pendley
> Sherman Pendley wrote:
>>
>> First you claim that a particular OS may have problems,
>
> I never made any such claim.
Your own words, directly copied and pasted:
"While it is common to use ASCII mode one should still take care, as this
isn't always guarenteed to work. There used (still are?) issues with
this when uploading to MacOS based servers, for example."
>> then when I asked for details you gave me a bunch of hand-waving
>> about an FTP server supposedly not informing the client what it was,
>> when in fact *no* FTP server does so for ASCII transfers, nor needs
>> to.
>
> Because it was some time ago. I was just recalling an experience. Why do
> you care so damn much anyways? Who asked you to be a lawyer?
I care about accuracy in the technical fora in which I participate -
and I don't recall needing to be asked by you to care about it.
>> In this whole sorry thread, I've yet to see a single coherent, logical
>> description of the problem you supposedly had. Nor have I seen a bit
>> of evidence that you know anything about the FTP protocol.
>
> I don't have to prove any thing. I know how FTP work
Do you? Then why did you - again, your own words - "attribute the
problem likely was the server wasn't properly telling the client what
sort of platform it was"?
If you actually knew how FTP works, at the protocol level, you would
know that no server ever tells the client that. It doesn't need to -
both client and server transforms the text to and from its native
format to ASCII with \r\n for transport. Neither one needs to know or
care about the native format of the other.
> and I know there
> are many server and client implementations released over the years that
> could misbehave when it comes to converting EOLs.
I worked in web hosting for many years, and I've answered this and
similar questions literally hundreds of times. In every single case,
without exception, the answer was that the user was expecting ASCII
mode to handle translations that it isn't designed to handle.
For instance, if one uploads a file with \r in binary mode to a Unix
server, it's not in the server's native text format. So, when someone
else downloads that file later on, in ASCII mode, the server doesn't
translate it - there are no \n's in the file to translate, and an FTP
server will *only* translate its native format.
The most common cause of problems, in my experience, is users who
expect ASCII mode to translate all kinds of line endings to the
client's native format, when in fact that's not what is supposed to
happen.
> There is no reason to
> act this way, and in many people's eyes you come off as entirely
> condescending. Please be civil of fsck off.
I *am* being civil. I'm simply correcting misinformation; if your
feelings are hurt in the process, that's your problem. If you can't
stand being corrected, check your facts before posting.
Waylen Gumbal
> "Waylen Gumbal" <wgu...@gmail.com> writes:
>> Sherman Pendley wrote:
> > >
> > > First you claim that a particular OS may have problems,
> >
> > I never made any such claim.
>
> Your own words, directly copied and pasted:
>
> "While it is common to use ASCII mode one should still take care, as
> this isn't always guarenteed to work. There used (still are?) issues
> with this when uploading to MacOS based servers, for example."
Yes, as I have run into such issues in the past. I'm still not sure why
you are turning a simple comment into a federal investigation.
> > > then when I asked for details you gave me a bunch of hand-waving
> > > about an FTP server supposedly not informing the client what it
> > > was,
> > > when in fact *no* FTP server does so for ASCII transfers, nor
> > > needs
> > > to.
> >
> > Because it was some time ago. I was just recalling an experience.
> > Why do you care so damn much anyways? Who asked you to be a lawyer?
>
> I care about accuracy in the technical fora in which I participate -
> and I don't recall needing to be asked by you to care about it.
Caring about accuracy is one thing, but you're clearing taking a simple
comment and making it into something it's clearly not. You seem to be
bent on making WWIII out of a paint ball battle, for what reason I
really don't know.
> > > In this whole sorry thread, I've yet to see a single coherent,
> > > logical description of the problem you supposedly had. Nor have I
> > > seen a bit of evidence that you know anything about the FTP
> > > protocol.
> >
> > I don't have to prove any thing. I know how FTP work
>
> Do you? Then why did you - again, your own words - "attribute the
> problem likely was the server wasn't properly telling the client what
> sort of platform it was"?
Christ, it was a guess. Again, why are you making Mt. Everest out of a
half-foot tall ant hill? This is not simple fact hunting on your part,
it is some obsession of yours where it seems you wont stop until I'm
politely kissing your shoes. News flash: no one likes being talked to,
and it's certainly not a way to make someone see your view.
> If you actually knew how FTP works, at the protocol level, you would
> know that no server ever tells the client that. It doesn't need to -
> both client and server transforms the text to and from its native
> format to ASCII with \r\n for transport. Neither one needs to know or
> care about the native format of the other.
I never claimed to know how every inch and cm of the FTP protocol, so
why are you making this assertion? Why are you so obsessed with this?
> > and I know there
> > are many server and client implementations released over the years
> > that could misbehave when it comes to converting EOLs.
>
> I worked in web hosting for many years, and I've answered this and
> similar questions literally hundreds of times. In every single case,
> without exception, the answer was that the user was expecting ASCII
> mode to handle translations that it isn't designed to handle.
I have been there too, and in many other situations on various
platforms. Just because you haven't seen a particular issue doesn't mean
it doesn't exist. At least one other poster here has pointed out problem
with a particular client that incorrectly converted EOLs, and I've seen
many other EOL conversion issues.
> For instance, if one uploads a file with \r in binary mode to a Unix
> server, it's not in the server's native text format. So, when someone
> else downloads that file later on, in ASCII mode, the server doesn't
> translate it - there are no \n's in the file to translate, and an FTP
> server will *only* translate its native format.
This is likely where some problems arise. Other arise from improperly
configured software, at either end. Or a mix thereof.
> The most common cause of problems, in my experience, is users who
> expect ASCII mode to translate all kinds of line endings to the
> client's native format, when in fact that's not what is supposed to
> happen.
This is true, but it's not the only reason.
> > There is no reason to
> > act this way, and in many people's eyes you come off as entirely
> > condescending. Please be civil of fsck off.
>
> I *am* being civil. I'm simply correcting misinformation; if your
> feelings are hurt in the process, that's your problem. If you can't
> stand being corrected, check your facts before posting.
What misinformation? What correction? I stated a comment based on my own
experience, and you want to tell me I didn't see what I did in fact see?
What makes you so qualified to tell me what my own experiences are?
--
wg - and no I'm not going to kiss your ass
Stephan Bour
} "Waylen Gumbal" <wgu...@gmail.com> writes:
}
} > Sherman Pendley wrote:
} > > UnRiel <bdw...@gmail.com> writes:
} > >
} > > > I have a nice PERL script I use to generate CISCO configurations
} > >
} > > No need to shout - neither Perl nor Cisco are acronyms.
} >
} > I don't think two all-caps words in a sentence that's otherwise
} > properly cased really constitutes shouting.
}
} It's shouting those words.
Nonesense. Obviously you know what he meant by "PERL" and "CICSO", there
really isn't anything wrong about writing it that way, unless you want to be
an absolute perfectionist.
} > > Transfer the files in text mode. That will translate the line
} > > endings as needed.
} >
} > While it is common to use ASCII mode one should still take care, as
} > this isn't always guarenteed to work. There used (still are?) issues
} > with this when uploading to MacOS based servers, for example.
}
} Such as?
I've seen some pretty crazy where file that originally had \r\n ended up
being \r\n\n, which interestingly, occurred with a version of Serv-U (which
I recall was fixed in the next release),
And while not FTP, I've seen interesting line-terminator situations from web
forms ,for text coming from a TEXTAREA, though this was probably more the
fault of server-side scripting that handled the form input, making poor
assumptions about the incoming data.
Either way, it's always prudent to check to make sure a file has transferred
the way you think it has. If you're uploading to a UNIX-based server, you
can write a simply script to do a hex-dump of a file. If you see 0D0A when
you expect 0D, then something went wrong, and you should never assume, when
dealing with a foreign server you haven't used before, that it will have
transferred properly and that it needn't be checked.
Stephan.
Sherman Pendley
> Sherman Pendley wrote:
>> "Waylen Gumbal" <wgu...@gmail.com> writes:
>>> Sherman Pendley wrote:
>> > >
>> > > First you claim that a particular OS may have problems,
>> >
>> > I never made any such claim.
>>
>> Your own words, directly copied and pasted:
>>
>> "While it is common to use ASCII mode one should still take care, as
>> this isn't always guarenteed to work. There used (still are?) issues
>> with this when uploading to MacOS based servers, for example."
>
> Yes, as I have run into such issues in the past. I'm still not sure why
> you are turning a simple comment into a federal investigation.
I asked you a simple question - "Such as?" What's so unreasonable
about that question? Why are you dodging it? If you know of a specific
problem with Mac FTP servers, just say so - I use a Mac every day and
I'd love to know about it.
>> Do you? Then why did you - again, your own words - "attribute the
>> problem likely was the server wasn't properly telling the client what
>> sort of platform it was"?
>
> Christ, it was a guess.
Then why didn't you say so? Why are you trying to pass off a guess as
knowledgable advice?
> half-foot tall ant hill? This is not simple fact hunting on your part,
> it is some obsession of yours where it seems you wont stop until I'm
> politely kissing your shoes. News flash: no one likes being talked to,
> and it's certainly not a way to make someone see your view.
I don't care what you kiss or what you like. I'm correcting nonsense
for the sake of those who might otherwise believe it. Can you cite one
shred of *logical*, *fact-based* evidence that FTP problems are more
common on Mac servers than on others, or can't you?
Or, to put it in Wiki terms - [citation needed].
>> If you actually knew how FTP works, at the protocol level, you would
>> know that no server ever tells the client that. It doesn't need to -
>> both client and server transforms the text to and from its native
>> format to ASCII with \r\n for transport. Neither one needs to know or
>> care about the native format of the other.
>
> I never claimed to know how every inch and cm of the FTP protocol, so
> why are you making this assertion?
Because you claimed to have accurately diagnosed a problem with an
FTP server. Without a protocol-level understanding of FTP, such a
claim is pretty hard to swallow.
> Why are you so obsessed with this?
What's with the armchair psychology? We're having a discussion. It's
not a federal case, WWIII, or an obsession. Why are you trying to
paint me as a lunatic - are you trying to distract from the fact that
you have no evidence whatsoever to support your assertion?
> I have been there too, and in many other situations on various
> platforms. Just because you haven't seen a particular issue doesn't mean
> it doesn't exist. At least one other poster here has pointed out problem
> with a particular client that incorrectly converted EOLs, and I've seen
> many other EOL conversion issues.
Nice straw man. I'm not denying that there can be "issues"; what I'm
denying is your assertion that they're more common when the server is
running on a Mac.
>> I *am* being civil. I'm simply correcting misinformation; if your
>> feelings are hurt in the process, that's your problem. If you can't
>> stand being corrected, check your facts before posting.
>
> What misinformation? What correction? I stated a comment based on my own
> experience, and you want to tell me I didn't see what I did in fact
> see?
I'm not telling you that. I'm telling you that you misinterpreted what
you saw, and arrived at an incorrect diagnoses of the problem.
> What makes you so qualified to tell me what my own experiences are?
What makes you unable to have a civil conversation without indulging
in armchair psychology, ad homenem attacks, and straw man arguments?
If you have a logical argument that Mac FTP servers are more prone to
issues than others, and evidence to support it, then I'd really like
to hear it. Seriously! Otherwise this thread is going nowhere, and I'm
done with it.
Sherman Pendley
> Sherman Pendley wrote:
> } "Waylen Gumbal" <wgu...@gmail.com> writes:
> }
> } > Sherman Pendley wrote:
> } > > UnRiel <bdw...@gmail.com> writes:
> } > >
> } > > > I have a nice PERL script I use to generate CISCO configurations
> } > >
> } > > No need to shout - neither Perl nor Cisco are acronyms.
> } >
> } > I don't think two all-caps words in a sentence that's otherwise
> } > properly cased really constitutes shouting.
> }
> } It's shouting those words.
>
> Nonesense. Obviously you know what he meant by "PERL" and "CICSO", there
> really isn't anything wrong about writing it that way, unless you want to be
> an absolute perfectionist.
A perfectionist would have refused to answer the question based on
that, probably with some unhelpful response like "we talk about Perl
here, not PERL." I just offered a bit of advice I thought the OP might
find useful - and then went on to answer the question.
> } > > Transfer the files in text mode. That will translate the line
> } > > endings as needed.
> } >
> } > While it is common to use ASCII mode one should still take care, as
> } > this isn't always guarenteed to work. There used (still are?) issues
> } > with this when uploading to MacOS based servers, for example.
> }
> } Such as?
>
> I've seen some pretty crazy where file that originally had \r\n ended up
> being \r\n\n, which interestingly, occurred with a version of Serv-U (which
> I recall was fixed in the next release),
That makes sense. If the file was uploaded from a PC in binary mode,
or copied through some other means than FTP, it would have \r\n line
endings. Serv-U was, if I recall correctly, an old-school MacOS
server app, so it would translate its native \r into \r\n, and leave
the \n that's already there alone, resulting in \r\n\n.
It's nice that the next release was enhanced to handle arbitrary line
endings, but I wouldn't really call it a "fix." RFC 959 only requires
the server to translate its native line endings. So, what it was doing
was technically correct behavior, albeit inconvenient and not at all
obvious unless one has read the relevant RFCs.
It's also worth noting that a *nix server could easily have a similar
problem, if it's strictly following the RFC. It would translate the
outgoing \n's though, which would result in \r\r\n being received by
the client instead of \r\n\n.
That's my point in that other thread - this kind of error isn't any
more likely to crop up on Mac servers than others, and more often than
not, what appears to be bizarre behavior is just the server following
the bare minimum requirements of the protocol. I'm not a "Mac guy" who
jumps at the slightest chance to evangelize, but I'll admit that I do
find FUD to be rather annoying, and there appears to be quite a lot of
it floating around where Macs are concerned.
> And while not FTP, I've seen interesting line-terminator situations from web
> forms ,for text coming from a TEXTAREA, though this was probably more the
> fault of server-side scripting that handled the form input, making poor
> assumptions about the incoming data.
No argument there - HTML text areas are a can of worms. Some browsers
use hard wrapping by default, others soft wrapping, some support
nowrap, others don't, etc. It's a real mess - even understanding the
relevant HTML specs doesn't help, because the implementations are all
over the map.
I've taken to simply stripping out all \r's and \n's that come from a
text area as a matter of course, and then rewrapping the text myself
if it needs it. I like to use Text::Wrap for that - it's also useful
for adding a Perl reference to a conversation that's badly in need of
it. :-)
> Either way, it's always prudent to check to make sure a file has transferred
> the way you think it has. If you're uploading to a UNIX-based server, you
> can write a simply script to do a hex-dump of a file. If you see 0D0A when
> you expect 0D, then something went wrong, and you should never assume, when
> dealing with a foreign server you haven't used before, that it will have
> transferred properly and that it needn't be checked.
Indeed. Some servers do (or can, at least) translate any arbitrary
line endings. But you can't rely on that, nor is it entirely accurate
to characterize it as a bug or misconfiguration if they don't - the
relevant RFCs don't require it.
Ben Morrow
Quoth Sherman Pendley <spam...@dot-app.org>:
>
> Seriously! Otherwise this thread is going nowhere, and I'm
> done with it.
Thank you. I, at least, wish you'd reached this point somewhat sooner.
Ben
--
Every twenty-four hours about 34k children die from the effects of poverty.
Meanwhile, the latest estimate is that 2800 people died on 9/11, so it's like
that image, that ghastly, grey-billowing, double-barrelled fall, repeated
twelve times every day. Full of children. [Iain Banks] b...@morrow.me.uk
Waylen Gumbal
> "Waylen Gumbal" <wgu...@gmail.com> writes:
> > Sherman Pendley wrote:
> > > "Waylen Gumbal" <wgu...@gmail.com> writes:
> > > > Sherman Pendley wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > First you claim that a particular OS may have problems,
> > > >
> > > > I never made any such claim.
> > >
> > > Your own words, directly copied and pasted:
> > >
> > > "While it is common to use ASCII mode one should still take care,
> > > as
> > > this isn't always guarenteed to work. There used (still are?)
> > > issues
> > > with this when uploading to MacOS based servers, for example."
> >
> > Yes, as I have run into such issues in the past. I'm still not sure
> > why you are turning a simple comment into a federal investigation.
>
> I asked you a simple question - "Such as?" What's so unreasonable
> about that question? Why are you dodging it? If you know of a specific
> problem with Mac FTP servers, just say so - I use a Mac every day and
> I'd love to know about it.
I wasn't dodging anything. I simply was sharing my experience. I even
todl you before that I don't remember what client or server software it
was, maybe I wasn't clear, but it should be now.
> > > Do you? Then why did you - again, your own words - "attribute the
> > > problem likely was the server wasn't properly telling the client
> > > what sort of platform it was"?
> >
> > Christ, it was a guess.
>
> Then why didn't you say so?
I thought this was clear from the beginning
> Why are you trying to pass off a guess as knowledgable advice?
There you go again, making up your own reality. In the one everyone else
is living in, I simply made a comment and I never tried ot pass it off
as "knowledgable advice" as you claim.
> > > If you actually knew how FTP works, at the protocol level, you
> > > would
> > > know that no server ever tells the client that. It doesn't need
> > > to -
> > > both client and server transforms the text to and from its native
> > > format to ASCII with \r\n for transport. Neither one needs to know
> > > or care about the native format of the other.
> >
> > I never claimed to know how every inch and cm of the FTP protocol,
> > so
> > why are you making this assertion?
>
> Because you claimed to have accurately diagnosed a problem with an
> FTP server. Without a protocol-level understanding of FTP, such a
> claim is pretty hard to swallow.
I never made such a claim. Why must you lie to make your points?
What I did say was that I experienced such a problem as I described, in
effort to share my experience, and you're just turning that completely
upside down.
> > Why are you so obsessed with this?
>
> Why are you trying to paint me as a lunatic
I'm sorry, but I haven't needed to do any of the painting. You've done
that quite well yourself with your unwillingness to discuss civilly and
insistence to act like you're a lawyer.
> > I have been there too, and in many other situations on various
> > platforms. Just because you haven't seen a particular issue doesn't
> > mean it doesn't exist. At least one other poster here has pointed
> > out problem with a particular client that incorrectly converted
> > EOLs, and I've seen many other EOL conversion issues.
>
> Nice straw man. I'm not denying that there can be "issues"; what I'm
> denying is your assertion that they're more common when the server is
> running on a Mac.
I NEVER made such an assetion. I merely used it as an example based on
experiences I've had. It is clear to me you would rather respond in your
offensive-superior tone rather than actually discuss things like two
rational individuals.
--
wg
Sherman Pendley
> Why must you lie to make your points?
That's it. I've tried to be civil with you, and I'm tired of your
constant attacks and refusal to discuss a technical issue in a
rational manner. Into the killfile you go.
*plonk*
Sherman Pendley
> Quoth Sherman Pendley <spam...@dot-app.org>:
>>
>> Seriously! Otherwise this thread is going nowhere, and I'm
>> done with it.
>
> Thank you. I, at least, wish you'd reached this point somewhat
> sooner.
I always try to give people a chance to discuss things rationally. A
demonstration of hope over experience, I guess. But even the most
optimistic of us has to give up on hopeless trolls eventually.
Stephan Bour
} Quoth Sherman Pendley <spam...@dot-app.org>:
} >
} > Seriously! Otherwise this thread is going nowhere, and I'm
} > done with it.
}
} Thank you. I, at least, wish you'd reached this point somewhat sooner.
Do you mean to tell me that you believe Mr. Pendley hold absolutely no
responsibility for the thread taking the direction it did? Do you really
believe his behavior in the thread is an example of how one should attempt
to communicate with someone else?
In my humble opinion, people like Pendley need to be told what they are
doing wrong, rather than simple encouraged to continue attacking people like
this. I honestly can not hold Mr. Gumbal at fault in this thread as it is
quite evident he was forced into a corner. This is just wrong.
Stephan.
Stephan Bour
} Ben Morrow <b...@morrow.me.uk> writes:
}
} > Quoth Sherman Pendley <spam...@dot-app.org>:
} > >
} > > Seriously! Otherwise this thread is going nowhere, and I'm
} > > done with it.
} >
} > Thank you. I, at least, wish you'd reached this point somewhat
} > sooner.
}
} I always try to give people a chance to discuss things rationally. A
} demonstration of hope over experience, I guess. But even the most
} optimistic of us has to give up on hopeless trolls eventually.
But this isn't' what *you* did. You backed Mr. Gumbal into a corner, you
started a fight where once surely wasn't needed. You did anything but
discuss things rationally. You turned a discussion into a lawyer-esque
attack. This not an example people should be seeing.
Stephan.
Stephan Bour
} "Waylen Gumbal" <wgu...@gmail.com> writes:
}
} > Why must you lie to make your points?
}
} That's it. I've tried to be civil with you, and I'm tired of your
} constant attacks and refusal to discuss a technical issue in a
} rational manner. Into the killfile you go.
You have not been arguing in in a rational manner. You have completely
ignored his responses saying he doesn't have all the details, and you
repeatedly made assuptions and assertions he did not make. You are the one
who is in the wrong here. Stop being such a bully for $deity sake.
Stephan.
Sherman Pendley
> } I always try to give people a chance to discuss things rationally. A
> } demonstration of hope over experience, I guess. But even the most
> } optimistic of us has to give up on hopeless trolls eventually.
>
> But this isn't' what *you* did.
That is in fact exactly what I did. He asserted that Mac-based FTP
servers had "problems". I asked him a simple two-word question: "Such
as?" I asked this because I use a Mac every day, and if there *are*
such problems I would sincerely like to know about them.
I continued to give him every chance to support his assertion with
evidence. Instead of doing so, he resorted to crying about civility
and accusing me of being a liar.
> You turned a discussion into a lawyer-esque attack.
Nonsense. A request for evidence to support a dubious claim is not an
"attack." If someone can't argue a technical point without taking it
personally, that's *his* problem, not mine.
> This not an example people should be seeing.
What do you suggest as an alternative then? Should we allow nonsense
to stand unremarked and uncorrected, potentially misleading those who
don't know better, just to avoid hurting the feelings of the over-
sensitive and easily offended?
This is a technical forum. If you want sound, accurate advice about
Perl, you can find it here. If you want warm fuzzy feelings and
unquestioning devotion, adopt a puppy.
Stephan Bour
> "Stephan Bour" <sb...@niaid.nih.gov> writes:
}
} > } I always try to give people a chance to discuss things rationally.
} > } A demonstration of hope over experience, I guess. But even the most
} > } optimistic of us has to give up on hopeless trolls eventually.
} >
} > But this isn't' what *you* did.
}
} That is in fact exactly what I did. He asserted that Mac-based FTP
} servers had "problems".
No he didn't. He said he encountered a with line termination translation and
used a Mac server as an example. That's not the same as saying the Mac ftp's
are bugged. You are mixing two different things.
} I asked him a simple two-word question: "Such
} as?" I asked this because I use a Mac every day, and if there *are*
} such problems I would sincerely like to know about them.
You didn't ask that at first. You came across as demanding, which is hardly
the way to persuade someone to deal nice with you. He also had already told
you he was just recalling an experience and didn't recall all the details
but you ignored that and persisted.
} I continued to give him every chance to support his assertion with
} evidence.
Why is it you cannot distinguish between a simpel comment and a detailed
assertion about something?
} Instead of doing so, he resorted to crying about civility and
} accusing me of being a liar.
Because you were pushing rather hard. On top of that you kept on telling him
he made assertions he never made. In my book that constitutes a lie. Or at
least, it's dishonest.
} > You turned a discussion into a lawyer-esque attack.
}
} Nonsense. A request for evidence to support a dubious claim is not an
} "attack." If someone can't argue a technical point without taking it
} personally, that's *his* problem, not mine.
What is wrong with you? It was a comment from something he was remembering.
Do you honestly remember every single detail about every single thing you've
done in your life time?
} > This not an example people should be seeing.
}
} What do you suggest as an alternative then? Should we allow nonsense
} to stand unremarked and uncorrected, potentially misleading those who
} don't know better, just to avoid hurting the feelings of the over-
} sensitive and easily offended?
This was clearly not an issue about nonsense, but about people like yourself
who spin into their own personal crusades just because they don't agree with
something or because they have to see and push something as being more than
it really is. a simple comment is not always meant to be taken in the same
way as a detailed write up on a given subject. Sometimes such things should
be taken at face value.
And if someone does in fact answer you and you blatantly ignore it and
continue on pushing, then you are clearly in the wrong, and should
apologize, if you have any honour.
} This is a technical forum. If you want sound, accurate advice about
} Perl, you can find it here.
There's no reason one shouldn't be able to make a simple comment without
being put in front of a firing squad. Please stop making excuses for verbal
brutality.
Stephan.
Vernan R.
> Ben Morrow wrote:
> } Quoth Sherman Pendley <spam...@dot-app.org>:
> } >
> } > Seriously! Otherwise this thread is going nowhere, and I'm
> } > done with it.
> }
> } Thank you. I, at least, wish you'd reached this point somewhat
> } sooner.
> Do you mean to tell me that you believe Mr. Pendley hold absolutely no
> responsibility for the thread taking the direction it did? Do you
> really believe his behavior in the thread is an example of how one
> should attempt to communicate with someone else?
In real like, Pendley's behavior would never be tolerated.
Especially in an academic institution.
> In my humble opinion, people like Pendley need to be told what they
> are doing wrong
The problem is, people like him wont listen; they believe
they are higher up in the intelligence chain and therefore
don't have to adhere to the same rules of conduct as everyone
else. At least this is the message he seems to be sending.
--
-Vern
Bill H
> Stephan Bour wrote:
> > Ben Morrow wrote:
Reading this thread I feel like I am back at school on the playground
and someone just yelled FIGHT!
Bill H
Sherman Pendley
> The problem is, people like him wont listen; they believe
> they are higher up in the intelligence chain
You don't know the first thing about what I believe. Get over
yourself.
Sherman Pendley
> Sherman Pendley wrote:
>
> } I asked him a simple two-word question: "Such
> } as?" I asked this because I use a Mac every day, and if there *are*
> } such problems I would sincerely like to know about them.
>
> You didn't ask that at first.
Check again please:
"Such as?" is *exactly* what I asked at first.
He chose to answer it with a condescending attitude, talking down to
me as if I'm a clueless newb who needs to be lectured about what line
endings "classic" MacOS used to use. Further, the example he gave
after the lecture showed a complete lack of understanding of the FTP
protocol, and a conclusion that was nonsensical on the face of it.
I'm happy to accept a lecture from someone who knows what they're
talking about, and I'm happy to help someone who doesn't. But I'll be
damned if I'm going to sit quietly and be lectured by someone who
knows jack about the subject at hand.
Sherman Pendley
> Reading this thread I feel like I am back at school on the
> playground and someone just yelled FIGHT!
Funny you should say that - I'm beginning to feel like the only adult
in a playground full of screaming children.
Stephan Bour
} "Stephan Bour" <sb...@niaid.nih.gov> writes:
}
} > Sherman Pendley wrote:
} >
} > } I asked him a simple two-word question: "Such
} > } as?" I asked this because I use a Mac every day, and if there *are*
} > } such problems I would sincerely like to know about them.
} >
} > You didn't ask that at first.
}
} Check again please:
}
}
<http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.perl.misc/browse_frm/thread/2673dbe49b01e032/a0ef8bad667b1f81?lnk=raot#a0ef8bad667b1f81>
}
} "Such as?" is *exactly* what I asked at first.
Ok, I made that mistake, but the point I was getting at is that you kept
pushing after he answered that question. He made it clear he didn't remember
al lthe details, but you kept on asking. You were more demanding then simply
asking.
} He chose to answer it with a condescending attitude, talking down to
} me as if I'm a clueless newb who needs to be lectured about what line
} endings "classic" MacOS used to use.
}
} Further, the example he gave after the lecture showed a complete
} lack of understanding of the FTP protocol, and a conclusion that
} was nonsensical on the face of it.
What the hell are you talking about? You are the one who kept "talking down"
and responding with a "condescending attitude". You are the one who kept
ignoring his responses and continued to ask. All he did was making a comment
and you turned it into some stupid crusade and now you're attempting to dish
out every trick in the book in order to vindicate yourself.
If you have a shred of decency, you'll stop spinning your elaborate web of
lies and just come out and admit you took all of this a bit too far, as that
is exactly what happened here. But if you prefer to live in your own
alternate reality that's your choice.
Stephan.
Ben Morrow
Quoth Sherman Pendley <spam...@dot-app.org>:
> Bill H <bi...@ts1000.us> writes:
>
> > Reading this thread I feel like I am back at school on the
> > playground and someone just yelled FIGHT!
>
> Funny you should say that - I'm beginning to feel like the only adult
> in a playground full of screaming children.
The sensible response, then, is not to keep screaming back.
(I'm saying this to you rather than anyone else in this thread because I
have somewhat more hope you'll see reason.)
Ben
--
And if you wanna make sense / Whatcha looking at me for? (Fiona Apple)
* b...@morrow.me.uk *
Sherman Pendley
> and you turned it into some stupid crusade and now you're attempting
> to dish out every trick in the book in order to vindicate yourself.
Vindicate myself to whom? You? Who appointed you to the Usenet Police?
Get over yourself already.
Sherman Pendley
> Quoth Sherman Pendley <spam...@dot-app.org>:
>> Bill H <bi...@ts1000.us> writes:
>>
>> > Reading this thread I feel like I am back at school on the
>> > playground and someone just yelled FIGHT!
>>
>> Funny you should say that - I'm beginning to feel like the only adult
>> in a playground full of screaming children.
>
> The sensible response, then, is not to keep screaming back.
An excellent point, and well taken. I'll do that.
Vernan R.
> Bill H <bi...@ts1000.us> writes:
>
> > Reading this thread I feel like I am back at school on the
> > playground and someone just yelled FIGHT!
>
> Funny you should say that - I'm beginning to feel like the only adult
> in a playground full of screaming children.
I would say it looks more like this:
Person A is i nthe play ground and asks a question.
Person B reponds.
Person C makes a simple comment.
Person B responds, asking for more information.
Person C responds with some what limited information.
Person B, responds in anger and starts shoving, as
if disliking having been defied, in his eyes.
Person C responds again, to defend himself.
Person B shoves some more, continuing to escalate.
Person C shoves back, not liking being pushed, and
the situation quickly becomes a full blown
school yard fight.
Having gone through this thread quite thoroughly, I have
to conclude that you went way off the deep end. You could
of prevented the fight from happening if you could have
conducted yourself in a much more calmer tone; you did
come across as sounding very angry and antagonistic.
And to those defending him: If you truly wish to do some
good here, you should help him identify his problem rather
than encouraging such behavior.
--
-Vern
Vernan R.
> "Vernan R." <vr...@byu.edu.invalid> writes:
>
> > The problem is, people like him wont listen; they believe
> > they are higher up in the intelligence chain
>
> You don't know the first thing about what I believe. Get over
> yourself.
Given the way you have conducted yourself in this
thread, you have given the impression that you lack
proper social skills to properly deal with people
who think radically differently from your self.
To put it blunt, what does it matter what you
"believe"? I only find relevance in who you
conduct yourself. With the latter, you were less
than a model of pristine human communication.
--
-Vern
Stephan Bour
} "Stephan Bour" <sb...@niaid.nih.gov> writes:
}
} > and you turned it into some stupid crusade and now you're attempting
} > to dish out every trick in the book in order to vindicate yourself.
}
} Vindicate myself to whom? You? Who appointed you to the Usenet Police?
} Get over yourself already.
I am not more a "Usenet Police" officer than you are, yet you seem to have
no problem acting that way yourself; you clearly acted in a tone as if you
were scolding Gumbal for being defiant, for not answering in a way that was
satisfactory to *you*, as if anyone to participates in the same thread is
some how obligated to answer to you. I'm afraid I'm not the one who is
having trouble getting over thy self.
Stephan.
Stephan Bour
} Quoth Sherman Pendley spam...@dot-app.org:
} > Bill H <bi...@ts1000.us> writes:
} >
} > > Reading this thread I feel like I am back at school on the
} > > playground and someone just yelled FIGHT!
} >
} > Funny you should say that - I'm beginning to feel like the only adult
} > in a playground full of screaming children.
}
} The sensible response, then, is not to keep screaming back.
}
} (I'm saying this to you rather than anyone else in this thread
} because I have somewhat more hope you'll see reason.)
That's it, keep defending the one who perpetuated the source of the conflict
you're talking about. You really aren't helping him by telling him it's ok
to bully people around. It would be nice if people like you would, instead
of defending people you've often conversed with and instead act upon what
you know is right or wrong. Every bone in my body tells me what Mr. Pendley
did in this thread was a bad example of how to handle that sort of
situation. You don't back people who you don't understand into a corner, and
then turn around and wonder why they are responding in such a defensive
manner. Defending this behavior is just absurd.
No offense, but I don't expect you to listen. Which would be rather ironic,
since you're the one speaking about listening to reason... I can only hope
you truly believe in doing just that.
Stephan.
Waylen Gumbal
> Quoth Sherman Pendley <spam...@dot-app.org>:
> > Bill H <bi...@ts1000.us> writes:
> >
> > > Reading this thread I feel like I am back at school on the
> > > playground and someone just yelled FIGHT!
> >
> > Funny you should say that - I'm beginning to feel like the only
> > adult
> > in a playground full of screaming children.
>
> The sensible response, then, is not to keep screaming back.
>
> (I'm saying this to you rather than anyone else in this thread
> because I have somewhat more hope you'll see reason.)
I have tried to be quite reasonable but it appears it's impossible to
see eye to someone who keeps blinking. I also understand the want to
defend a fellow comrade, but it seems some people like you take that too
far, like here where you are defending Sherman when he is wrong. I came
after me in a water wicked tone. I real life this would never fly, so
why should it be allowed to here?
--
wg
Vernan R.
> This is a technical forum. If you want sound, accurate advice about
> Perl, you can find it here.
Are you, sir, asserting that a technical news group
cannot have a friendly atmosphere? That participants
should not pay others the same respect that they
would desire in return?
> If you want warm fuzzy feelings and unquestioning
> devotion, adopt a puppy.
Is it not fair to say those who have rushed to your
defense are not, themselves, bestowing the same
"unquestioning devotion" you speak of, and if so,
why do you not ask them to refrain, given your
stance of being against it?
--
-Vern
Andrew DeFaria
Sherman Pendley wrote:Yeah he does. Just ignore him.
"Waylen Gumbal" <wgu...@gmail.com> writes:I didn't post nonsense. Do you act this same way in real life too?
Are you going through some rough times? Else, why do you find it so necessary to so unpleasant to others.I find it necessary to correct nonsense when I see it, for the sake of those who might otherwise be misled into believing it. If you find that unpleasant, don't post nonsense.
I'm obviously not the only to have run into such issues (regardless of destination and source platforms), so I don't know where you get off taking that stance.He's a Mac guy with a superiority complex...
Andrew DeFaria
Why is a person who plays the piano called a pianist, but a person who drives a race car not called a racist?
Andrew DeFaria
I didn't post nonsense.
So where, exactly, did you post a specific problem with a specific app, as opposed to vague hand-waving about an entire platform that you obviously know very little about?So unless somebody posts a specific problem with a specific app they are talking non-sense eh?
Do you act this same way in real life too?
Life is no less real when you're typing to people than when you're talking face to face with them.Ah no, it's considerably different! You should try real life sometime! Get out of the house and interact with real human beings sometimes. You might like it!
And yes, I call BS when and where I see it, online or off.Yes and in "Real Life", ya know that place that you admit you don't go to, doing such foolery will get you ostracized right quick. Which is probably why you tend not to interact with real people. You really should see a shrink about such things if you truly believe that life is no less real when you are typing to people! It's totally unreal. Psst! Here's a secret! People don't behave the same way in type and under the clock of anonymity than they do in real life!
That does tend to upset people who continually spout BS - but I couldn't care less about their opinions anyway, so that's fine by me.Exactly. So then you admit to having anti-social behavior and being a prick who doesn't care about what anybody else thinks of them!
npc
Lets start a pool, how many people will sherman defend his behaviour
against before he realizes the swarm may have a point, and he should sit
in the corner and think about his offensive^2 words.
dibs on INT_MAX.
Dr.Ruud
> Bill H:
>> Reading this thread I feel like I am back at school on the
>> playground and someone just yelled FIGHT!
>
> Funny you should say that - I'm beginning to feel like the only adult
> in a playground full of screaming children.
It is more like one paving stone on which some guys are unhappy
together, for ever unnoticed by the players on the rest of the
playground.
--
Affijn, Ruud
"Gewoon is een tijger."