Best SDK?
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
available. I suppose I should add "cheap", because I don't want to do
anything really complex with it.
In the recent past I've used MS Visual C# Express, which I found was
brilliant. But I know nothing about modern Java dev.
--
Dirk
http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
http://www.theconsensus.org/ - A UK political party
http://www.onetribe.me.uk/wordpress/?cat=5 - Our podcasts on weird stuff
Arne Vajhøj
> Possibly a contentious question, but what's the best development kit
> available. I suppose I should add "cheap", because I don't want to do
> anything really complex with it.
>
> In the recent past I've used MS Visual C# Express, which I found was
> brilliant. But I know nothing about modern Java dev.
You mean IDE ?
I prefer Eclipse.
Other prefer NetBeans.
Both are free (both as in free beer and as in free speech).
Arne
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
> Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
>> Possibly a contentious question, but what's the best development kit
>> available. I suppose I should add "cheap", because I don't want to do
>> anything really complex with it.
>>
>> In the recent past I've used MS Visual C# Express, which I found was
>> brilliant. But I know nothing about modern Java dev.
>
> You mean IDE ?
Yes, now I think of it.
> I prefer Eclipse.
>
> Other prefer NetBeans.
>
> Both are free (both as in free beer and as in free speech).
I'll give them a try.
I'd really prefer something as smooth as the MS C# IDE, with some nice
drag and drop for buttons etc.
Arne Vajhøj
> Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
>>> Possibly a contentious question, but what's the best development kit
>>> available. I suppose I should add "cheap", because I don't want to do
>>> anything really complex with it.
>>>
>>> In the recent past I've used MS Visual C# Express, which I found was
>>> brilliant. But I know nothing about modern Java dev.
>>
>> You mean IDE ?
>
> Yes, now I think of it.
>
>> I prefer Eclipse.
>>
>> Other prefer NetBeans.
>>
>> Both are free (both as in free beer and as in free speech).
>
> I'll give them a try.
> I'd really prefer something as smooth as the MS C# IDE, with some nice
> drag and drop for buttons etc.
You want a GUI builder ?
Those are not so popular among Java developers.
But NetBeans comes with one and you can get a plugin for Eclipse
(called VE).
Arne
David Segall
>Possibly a contentious question, but what's the best development kit
>available. I suppose I should add "cheap", because I don't want to do
>anything really complex with it.
>
>In the recent past I've used MS Visual C# Express, which I found was
>brilliant. But I know nothing about modern Java dev.
You are probably looking for an IDE (Integrated Development
Environment) for Java. I have a list of candidates that are comparable
to the Microsoft offerings at <http://ide.profectus.com.au>.
Roedy Green
<dirk....@gmail.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who
said :
>Possibly a contentious question, but what's the best development kit
>available. I suppose I should add "cheap", because I don't want to do
>anything really complex with it.
There is really only one SDK, the JDK, and it is free. See
http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jdk.html
You probably want an IDE too. Most are free.
See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/ide.html
Have a look at http://mindprod.com/jgloss/gettingstarted.html
--
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
http://mindprod.com
One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other,
to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly.
~ Woody Allen .
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
> On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 13:35:54 +0000, Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
> <dirk....@gmail.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who
> said :
>
>> Possibly a contentious question, but what's the best development kit
>> available. I suppose I should add "cheap", because I don't want to do
>> anything really complex with it.
>
> There is really only one SDK, the JDK, and it is free. See
> http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jdk.html
>
> You probably want an IDE too. Most are free.
> See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/ide.html
>
> Have a look at http://mindprod.com/jgloss/gettingstarted.html
I've downloaded NetBeans and am trying to get to grips with it.
I'll probably spend far longer learning the IDE than writing the prog
Daniel Pitts
>> On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 13:35:54 +0000, Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
>> <dirk....@gmail.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who
>> said :
>>
>>> Possibly a contentious question, but what's the best development kit
>>> available. I suppose I should add "cheap", because I don't want to do
>>> anything really complex with it.
>>
>> There is really only one SDK, the JDK, and it is free. See
>> http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jdk.html
>>
>> You probably want an IDE too. Most are free.
>> See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/ide.html
>>
>> Have a look at http://mindprod.com/jgloss/gettingstarted.html
>
> I've downloaded NetBeans and am trying to get to grips with it.
> I'll probably spend far longer learning the IDE than writing the prog
>
than cutting your first piece of wood :-) Once you've got that part
down though, new programs will be *much* easier.
--
Daniel Pitts' Tech Blog: <http://virtualinfinity.net/wordpress/>
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
The problem is that I have to do *everything* at present.
That means writing in Java, C#, C++, designing and programming a DSP
board, microcontrollers, porting stuff to Linux, Windows etc etc. It's
just one huge learning curve.
Lew
>>> I've downloaded NetBeans and am trying to get to grips with it.
>>> I'll probably spend far longer learning the IDE than writing the prog
>
Daniel Pitts wrote:
>> And for power saw, you'll spend more time learning the safety features
>> than cutting your first piece of wood :-) Once you've got that part
>> down though, new programs will be *much* easier.
>
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
> The problem is that I have to do *everything* at present.
> That means writing in Java, C#, C++, designing and programming a DSP
> board, microcontrollers, porting stuff to Linux, Windows etc etc. It's
> just one huge learning curve.
>
That's why they pay you the big bucks.
Do you think the job will be easier if you *don't* learn how to use
the tools?
--
Lew
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
> Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
>>>> I've downloaded NetBeans and am trying to get to grips with it.
>>>> I'll probably spend far longer learning the IDE than writing the prog
>
> Daniel Pitts wrote:
>>> And for power saw, you'll spend more time learning the safety features
>>> than cutting your first piece of wood :-) Once you've got that part
>>> down though, new programs will be *much* easier.
>
> Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
>> The problem is that I have to do *everything* at present.
>> That means writing in Java, C#, C++, designing and programming a DSP
>> board, microcontrollers, porting stuff to Linux, Windows etc etc. It's
>> just one huge learning curve.
>>
>
> That's why they pay you the big bucks.
Who's this "they"? It's my company! We're a startup.
> Do you think the job will be easier if you *don't* learn how to use
> the tools?
No - it will be easier when I can pay someone else to do it.
I'm drawing the line at Linux - that stuff I really do want to farm out.
Java is worth learning because of its cross platform ability. Except for
those bastards at Apple with the iPod and iPhone. We really wanted to
use these as our system controllers. Now it's Windows Mobile - hooray! :-(
Lew
> Lew wrote:
>> That's why they pay you the big bucks.
>
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax <dirk.bru...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Who's this "they"? It's my company! We're a startup.
>
The same "they" who are in, "You know what they say ..."
>> Do you think the job will be easier if you *don't* learn how to use
>> the tools?
>
> No - it will be easier when I can pay someone else to do it.
> I'm drawing the line at Linux - that stuff I really do want to farm out.
> Java is worth learning because of its cross platform ability. Except for
> those bastards at Apple with the iPod and iPhone. We really wanted to
> use these as our system controllers. Now it's Windows Mobile - hooray! :-(
>
Until you can pay someone else to do it, doesn't logic indicate that
you should make the job as easy as possible for yourself, and your
effectiveness as great as possible?
To carry the power-saw analogy from upthread a little farther, imagine
that you are stuck having to saw your own wood, and there's a lot of
it, you have a choice between a hand saw and a power saw. You already
know how to use the hand saw, the power saw requires that you learn a
new skill. Sure, it takes a while to learn the power saw, but you are
going to saw a lot more wood a lot more effectively with the power
saw. You can either waste your time complaining that it's hard to
learn to use a power saw, obstinately refuse to use the power tool and
take much longer with the hand saw, or heave a sigh and learn the tool
that will make you more effective.
WHen you start your own enterprise you commit yourself to having to
work longer and harder than those who settle for working for a boss.
Presumably you expect to get more reward for the extra hassle. What a
shame that you have to work so hard for that reward.
--
Lew
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
> On Feb 25, 1:21 pm,
>> Lew wrote:
>>> That's why they pay you the big bucks.
>
> Dirk Bruere at NeoPax <dirk.bru...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Who's this "they"? It's my company! We're a startup.
>>
>
> The same "they" who are in, "You know what they say ..."
>
>>> Do you think the job will be easier if you *don't* learn how to use
>>> the tools?
>
>> No - it will be easier when I can pay someone else to do it.
>> I'm drawing the line at Linux - that stuff I really do want to farm out.
>> Java is worth learning because of its cross platform ability. Except for
>> those bastards at Apple with the iPod and iPhone. We really wanted to
>> use these as our system controllers. Now it's Windows Mobile - hooray! :-(
>>
>
> Until you can pay someone else to do it, doesn't logic indicate that
> you should make the job as easy as possible for yourself, and your
> effectiveness as great as possible?
Still a pain though.
A week of work to relearn Java and an IDE, plus all of the cross
platform stuff, and something like 1 day to write the s/w
> To carry the power-saw analogy from upthread a little farther, imagine
> that you are stuck having to saw your own wood, and there's a lot of
> it, you have a choice between a hand saw and a power saw. You already
> know how to use the hand saw, the power saw requires that you learn a
> new skill. Sure, it takes a while to learn the power saw, but you are
> going to saw a lot more wood a lot more effectively with the power
> saw. You can either waste your time complaining that it's hard to
> learn to use a power saw, obstinately refuse to use the power tool and
> take much longer with the hand saw, or heave a sigh and learn the tool
> that will make you more effective.
>
> WHen you start your own enterprise you commit yourself to having to
> work longer and harder than those who settle for working for a boss.
> Presumably you expect to get more reward for the extra hassle. What a
> shame that you have to work so hard for that reward.
Hence the saying that the best way to become a billionaire is to start
off as a millionaire.
Lew
> Hence the saying that the best way to become a billionaire is to start
> off as a millionaire.
Q: Bow can a software engineer have a million dollars?
A: Start him with two million.
--
Lew
Roedy Green
>I've downloaded NetBeans and am trying to get to grips with it.
>I'll probably spend far longer learning the IDE than writing the prog
Ain't that the truth. We recommend newbies just use a text editor.
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
> On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 00:00:31 +0000, Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
> <dirk....@gmail.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who
> said :
>
>> I've downloaded NetBeans and am trying to get to grips with it.
>> I'll probably spend far longer learning the IDE than writing the prog
>
> Ain't that the truth. We recommend newbies just use a text editor.
It's not bad, but I miss the MS Intellisense. With that you hover the
mouse over a name and it brings up all the legal things you can do with
it eg its methods if a class etc. Part of the problem I have as a newbie
is that I do not know what is available from each class in terms of
useful methods without RTFM.
Peter Duniho
<dirk....@gmail.com> wrote:
> It's not bad, but I miss the MS Intellisense. With that you hover the
> mouse over a name and it brings up all the legal things you can do with
> it eg its methods if a class etc. Part of the problem I have as a newbie
> is that I do not know what is available from each class in terms of
> useful methods without RTFM.
I don't know about NetBeans, but Eclipse has essentially the same
feature. The only practical difference I've found between the two is that
in Eclipse, it doesn't show the information if you type too fast, and
doesn't reset the search if backspace over something you've typed
already. So, it's not quite as user-friendly as Visual Studio, but
otherwise serves the same purpose.
Of course, there's no substitute for actually RTFM. :) But, if you've
already got a handle on the way the class works and want to save some
typing or can't remember the exact method or field name, it works great
(in VS or Eclipse).
Pete
Lew
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
>> It's not bad, but I miss the MS Intellisense. With that you hover the
>> mouse over a name and it brings up all the legal things you can do with
>> it eg its methods if a class etc. Part of the problem I have as a newbie
>> is that I do not know what is available from each class in terms of
>> useful methods without RTFM.
>
Peter Duniho wrote:
> I don't know about NetBeans, but Eclipse has essentially the same
> feature. The only practical difference I've found between the two is that
> in Eclipse, it doesn't show the information if you type too fast, and
> doesn't reset the search if backspace over something you've typed
> already. So, it's not quite as user-friendly as Visual Studio, but
> otherwise serves the same purpose.
>
NetBeans has this, except I think it leaves the list up with
backspace. I might be wrong about that detail, and I don't feel like
checking just now.
Both Eclipse and NB will bring up a completion list if you type Ctrl-
Space, also.
--
Lew
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
Excuse me for being an idiot.
NetBeans does do it - somehow I missed it!
Mark Space
> It's not bad, but I miss the MS Intellisense. With that you hover the
> mouse over a name and it brings up all the legal things you can do with
> it eg its methods if a class etc. Part of the problem I have as a newbie
> is that I do not know what is available from each class in terms of
> useful methods without RTFM.
You can right click and select any of a number of things to do with a
name in NetBeans. Alt-F1 brings up the Java docs for whatever the
cursor is on, which is (depending on your preference) almost as good or
better than a smaller info box like MS does.
As mentioned Ctrl-Space brings up the auto-complete. I think Alt-Insert
on a blank line brings up a larger menu of code generation. Tab key is
your templates, the most useful of which is "sout". NetBeans has macros
too, which I haven't got into much.
I agree with you in principle, it's a shame that simple editors require
a learning curve, but in practice I don't see how it can be otherwise.
Maybe if you'd keep a couple of skilled Java engineers around for
contracts, you wouldn't have to put up with this nonsense. ;) *hint*hint*
Personally I think the mouse hover thing would bug me. I like to be
able to browse code like it was just a document, rather than have some
fool pop-up obscuring my view all the time. I like to keep my hands on
the keyboard and not have to nudge the mouse all the time.
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
Learning curve...
Well, it's 01:37 here and I'm off to bed.
Time to shut down NetBeans. I've got to do REAL work tomorrow ie
generate some PR blurb for the vapourware.
jebblue
> I've downloaded NetBeans and am trying to get to grips with it. I'll
> probably spend far longer learning the IDE than writing the prog
If you actually learn it then you will be far luckier than writing
that single program.
--
// This is my opinion.
Nigel Wade
> Roedy Green wrote:
>> On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 00:00:31 +0000, Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
>> <dirk....@gmail.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who
>> said :
>>
>>> I've downloaded NetBeans and am trying to get to grips with it.
>>> I'll probably spend far longer learning the IDE than writing the prog
>>
>> Ain't that the truth. We recommend newbies just use a text editor.
>
> It's not bad, but I miss the MS Intellisense. With that you hover the
> mouse over a name and it brings up all the legal things you can do with
> it eg its methods if a class etc. Part of the problem I have as a newbie
> is that I do not know what is available from each class in terms of
> useful methods without RTFM.
>
Therein lies trouble. Having the list of methods available by pop-up (which
NetBeans provides, BTW) is a very useful aid for experienced programmers to
remind them which methods, and associated parameters, are available. If you
don't know what those methods do, then to use that list to choose a "suitable,
likely-looking" method is a recipe for disaster. You would still need to RTFM
for each method to know what it does and whether it's appropriate to your
requirements. I think it's pretty clear that a fair percentage of problems
posted on these newsgroups are the result of IDEitis.
--
Nigel Wade
Lew
> Therein lies trouble. Having the list of methods available by pop-up (which
> NetBeans provides, BTW) is a very useful aid for experienced programmers to
> remind them which methods, and associated parameters, are available. If you
> don't know what those methods do, then to use that list to choose a "suitable,
> likely-looking" method is a recipe for disaster. You would still need to RTFM
> for each method to know what it does and whether it's appropriate to your
> requirements. I think it's pretty clear that a fair percentage of problems
> posted on these newsgroups are the result of IDEitis.
One example of this danger, from maintenance I did on a system in production.
A project had used Calendar#clear() in a misguided attempt to zero out
certain fields, e.g., the time fields.
<http://java.sun.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/util/Calendar.html#clear(int)>
They were surprised that this caused strange results.
--
Lew
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
Well, I'm still enough of a newbie to check what I use.
For example, when I used String.length() I noted that it returned the
number of unicode characters, not bytes.
Lew
> Well, I'm still enough of a newbie to check what I use.
> For example, when I used String.length() I noted that it returned the
> number of unicode characters, not bytes.
Well, characters, anyway.
Not to be confused with code points.
--
Lew
Arne Vajhøj
There were a couple of guys Bill Gates and Paul Allen that
actually succeed in starting software company that made them
some dollars.
:-)
Arne
jebblue
> If you actually learn it then you will be far luckier than writing that
> single program.
I re-read that and hope it didn't come across sarcastic. I meant that
learning a good IDE can be very valuable.
Lew
>>> Hence the saying that the best way to become a billionaire is to start
>>> off as a millionaire.
>
Lew wrote:
>> Q: Bow can a software engineer have a million dollars?
>> A: Start him with two million.
>
Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> There were a couple of guys Bill Gates and Paul Allen that
> actually succeed in starting software company that made them
> some dollars.
>
> :-)
The exception proves the rule.
Those two started their big rise to success by selling someone else's
operating system to IBM. That was not a software engineering move,
that was a business move.
Neither Bill nor Paul wrote DOS nor Windows.
Calling them "software engineers" or relating their success to their
software skills is a stretch, at best.
--
Lew
Arne Vajhøj
Calling them software engineers is it not stretching anything. They
did write software - including the Basic compiler that was Microsofts
first products.
I would tend to agree that it is not their skills in programming
that made them as rich as they are.
Arne
Martin Gregorie
OTOH it was their programming skills that got them to the stage of
needing to buy QDOS.
Altair Basic was written by Bill and Steve. They developed it on
Harvard's DEC-10 using a Altair 8800 emulator which they also wrote. IIRC
that Basic's first run on the target hardware was the demo at Altair.
That's pretty good programming by any standard.
By 1977/78 all the Zilog and Intel-based 8-bit boxes used MBasic, a
direct descendent of Altair Basic. It was a pretty good product.
--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |
Arne Vajhøj
Indeed.
Very few software engineers could do that today. Maybe someone working
with embedded software.
It is a different way of thinking.
> By 1977/78 all the Zilog and Intel-based 8-bit boxes used MBasic, a
> direct descendent of Altair Basic. It was a pretty good product.
And MS still sell Basic products.
Arne
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
I know:-)
I just don't like having to do it every other week.
Lew
>> On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 22:36:47 -0600, jebblue wrote:
>>
>>> If you actually learn it then you will be far luckier than writing that
>>> single program.
>>
>> I re-read that and hope it didn't come across sarcastic. I meant that
>> learning a good IDE can be very valuable.
>>
>
> I know:-)
> I just don't like having to do it every other week.
So just pick one and learn it only in one week, and re-use that knowledge in
every other week.
--
Lew
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
Not so easy when writing in multiple languages for multiple OSs and
embedded processors.
I had almost mastered MFC just before .NET appeared...
Still, I'm trying to keep it to Java, C# and C++ plus some DSP assembler
Lew
Lew wrote:
>> So just pick one and learn it only in one week, and re-use that
>> knowledge in every other week.
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
> Not so easy when writing in multiple languages for multiple OSs and
> embedded processors.
Seems to me you are in the wrong business, then.
> I had almost mastered MFC just before .NET appeared...
> Still, I'm trying to keep it to Java, C# and C++ plus some DSP assembler
One good Java IDE, or even a good editor like emacs or vi, is all you need.
I am puzzled why you get into software then don't want to learn its tools. I
confess I have no pity for your plight. You have to learn at least one good
editor, and that's just too, too bad. Software is an evolving field and
requires constant study just to keep up. If you aren't willing to do that,
why don't you just leave the field so the rest of us who *are* willing to
learn can get the gigs, hm?
--
Lew
Larry K. Wollensham
> Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
>
>> I had almost mastered MFC just before .NET appeared...
>> Still, I'm trying to keep it to Java, C# and C++ plus some DSP assembler
>
> One good Java IDE, or even a good editor like emacs or vi, is all you need.
For sufficiently mind-bending definitions of "a good editor", maybe. :-)
Blue is always using that stuff and he's occasionally tried to get me to
try to wrap my head around emacs, but I ended up constantly tripping
over differences from normal Windows programs. Not only are the control
keys to do things different, but a lot of other things behave different
in sometimes surprising ways. Even things you'd think were basic like
selecting and pasting and undo. Emacs at least has menus and stuff and
can be operated "normally" that way, if you don't mind being much slower
than using the keyboard shortcuts.
One time he went to go take a leak and I tried to play a prank on him.
He had an emacs window open with what looked like a list of filenames
and I thought it would be funny to change one of them to say "vegemite"
(don't ask) instead of "virtulite" or something, see if he noticed
before he tried to use the name somewhere and got a file not found
error. But emacs went wild when I tried to type into it and I think it
even asked me if I was sure I wanted to delete some file. Yikes!
Needless to say I told it no and backed away very slowly. :-)
I saw him use vi once a couple years ago when something had gone
catastrophically wrong with his machine and the X-Windows wouldn't work.
He was typing in the main part of the keyboard, not hitting control or
alt or anything, and the cursor was moving up and down, jumping around,
and deleting things instead of just typing in new text. I think that's
when I decided to stick with Windows despite his proselytizing about how
his Linix is so much more reliable, faster, and everything.
Then came Windows Vista. I think I might try that version he recommended
-- Ubundu or something like that -- after all, whenever this XP box
gives up the ghost and can't be reactivated. But I'll use something that
acts like a Windows editor if I can find one and if the X-Windows ever
stops working I think I'll ask blue to fix it. :-)
(Does Eclipse work there? It's Java so it should right?)
Anyway, mate, the upshot is I'd say those unix editors are perhaps an
acquired taste and not for everyone. Dirk might want to try one, but if
he doesn't like the idea of spending a lot of time learning NetBeans or
Eclipse, I doubt he's going to like either emacs or vi.
Lew
>> One good Java IDE, or even a good editor like emacs or vi, is all you need.
>
Larry K. Wollensham wrote:
> For sufficiently mind-bending definitions of "a good editor", maybe. :-)
> [rant against emacs and vi snipped] ...
>
Now don't go straw-manning my point into an issue over whether emacs
or vi are the only choices. Just because you don't like them doesn't
mean they aren't good editors; it only means that you have not found
it worthwhile to undergo the training to use their power.
There are any number of excellent editors out there. Personally I
prefer NetBeans for Java development, not so much because it's an
editor but because it has more features as an IDE, and Eclipse is also
a powerful choice. But don't stop there! Textpad and JEdit, just two
name two, are just fine. The point is to use *something* - I only
picked emacs and vi in my post as emblematic of what constitutes a
popular and powerful programmers' editor.
Anyway, "mate", keep the polemics about specific editors down. Don't
divert the issue. Pick the editor that works for you. If you're too
lazy or whatever to learn the power of NetBeans, or that of Eclipse,
or that of emacs, that's fine for you. My whole point was that you
can pick whatever one works *for you*, but that you must pick one.
Ironically, by revealing your unwillingness to learn the power of
emacs or vi, you reflect the very issue I had with the poster who
didn't want to learn the power of an IDE. What is it with people
who'd rather whine about this tool or that tool being "too hard" than
to learn what they need to learn to be good programmers? I don't give
a rat's ass about emacs or vi particularly, nor about NetBeans or
Eclipse particularly. I had to learn to drive a car, I had to learn
to operate a computer, and I had to learn to use those editors and
IDEs. I can use any of the four I just mentioned, with varying
facility, and this helps me to be a better programmer and make more
money. Too bad for you if you aren't up to the task. Don't blame the
tools for the shortcomings of the workman.
Software development is a profession where you must learn the tools -
some tools anyway. This inane refusal to learn something, replaced
with a rhapsodic essay attempting to hide one's inadequacies at
learning, is harmful to one's skill set. If you can't stand the heat,
get out of the kitchen.
--
Lew
Lars Enderin
> Lew wrote:
>>> One good Java IDE, or even a good editor like emacs or vi, is all you need.
>
> Larry K. Wollensham wrote:
>> For sufficiently mind-bending definitions of "a good editor", maybe. :-)
>> [rant against emacs and vi snipped] ...
I don't think "Larry" is for real. There's a high probability that he's
Twisted, taking this opportunity to continue his war on emacs, vi, and
Unix/Linux. Misspelling Linux and Ubuntu is just misdirection.
Larry K. Wollensham
> Lew wrote:
>> Lew wrote:
>>>> One good Java IDE, or even a good editor like emacs or vi, is all
>>>> you need.
>>
>> Larry K. Wollensham wrote:
>>> For sufficiently mind-bending definitions of "a good editor", maybe. :-)
>>> [rant against emacs and vi snipped] ...
>
> I don't think "Larry" is for real. There's a high probability that he's
> Twisted
I really do hope you're taking the piss.
Lew
> I really do hope you're taking the piss.
You're not from the U.S., are you? That expression has a rather rude
meaning in American English.
--
Lew
Peter Duniho
Actually, I find it meaningless in American English. "Taking the piss"?
Taking it where? Why would I have the piss in the first place? Did
someone leave it at my door? Was it handed to me as a gratuity?
In American English, we have a usable phrase "taking _a_ piss", which is
similarly meaningless unless you already know it actually means "leaving
some piss". :) But I wouldn't say it's all _that_ rude (at least, not in
the sense that it might be directed at someone else...someone might find
the language a bit rough, but IMHO that's different).
Anyway, Google turns up as the first link this Wikipedia article
explaining the phrase: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taking_the_piss
I guess he means he hopes that Lars was just teasing, though it's not
clear to me a) how that applies to what Lars wrote, and b) how being
mocked or teased is better than someone seriously believing you're playing
multiple personalities online.
Pete
Roedy Green
<see_w...@mindprod.com.invalid> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
someone who said :
>
>Ain't that the truth. We recommend newbies just use a text editor.
there are some simplified "training wheels" IDEs that won't overwhelm
you such as BlueJ. See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/ide.html
I just gritted my teeth and eventually Eclipse made sense. I keep
notes to myself, then flipped to IntelliJ which was relatively
painless.
I can hardly imagine coding without an IDE now. Tools I use
constantly include:
0. global rename
1. tidy code
2. rearrange code in canonical order
3. find where that symbol is defined.
4. find all uses of that symbol.
5. what methods can I call with that reference?
6. extract method (take a chunk of code, turn it into a method with
appropriate parms, and replace it with a call).
7. Inspect. Lint for Java
8. click on } to find match
9. automatically manage imports.
--
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
http://mindprod.com
"Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
~ Dr. W. (William) Edwards Deming (born: 1900-10-14 died: 1993-12-20 at age: 93))
Roedy Green
wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
>
>Those two started their big rise to success by selling someone else's
>operating system to IBM.
Even that was rip off of CPM.
blue indigo
> One time he went to go take a leak and I tried to play a prank on him.
> He had an emacs window open with what looked like a list of filenames
> and I thought it would be funny to change one of them to say "vegemite"
> (don't ask) instead of "virtulite" or something, see if he noticed
> before he tried to use the name somewhere and got a file not found
> error. But emacs went wild when I tried to type into it and I think it
> even asked me if I was sure I wanted to delete some file. Yikes!
> Needless to say I told it no and backed away very slowly. :-)
It was probably a dired buffer or a grep buffer.
As I told you once before, it sometimes is better to think of emacs as
being a shell and editor combined, not just an editor.
> I saw him use vi once a couple years ago when something had gone
> catastrophically wrong with his machine and the X-Windows wouldn't work.
> He was typing in the main part of the keyboard, not hitting control or
> alt or anything, and the cursor was moving up and down, jumping around,
> and deleting things instead of just typing in new text.
Magic. :-)
> Then came Windows Vista. I think I might try that version he recommended
> -- Ubundu or something like that
Ubuntu.
> (Does Eclipse work there? It's Java so it should right?)
Yes.
> Anyway, mate, the upshot is I'd say those unix editors are perhaps an
> acquired taste and not for everyone.
This, I'd agree with.
> Dirk might want to try one, but if he doesn't like the idea of spending
> a lot of time learning NetBeans or Eclipse, I doubt he's going to like
> either emacs or vi.
This is also likely true, though unfortunate.
--
blue indigo
UA Telecom since 1987
blue indigo
He's as Aussie as I am and that expression is quite common here, where it
means something maybe equivalent to your expression "pulling my leg," or
something similar.
Harold "Curly" Phillips
"blue indigo" <blue....@uatel.com.nospam.bogus.invalid.invalid.invalid>
wrote in message
news:pan.2009.02.28....@uatel.com.nospam.bogus.invalid.invalid.invalid...
> On Fri, 27 Feb 2009 14:05:23 -0800, Lew wrote:
>
>> Larry K. Wollensham wrote:
>>> I really do hope you're taking the piss.
>>
>> You're not from the U.S., are you? That expression has a rather rude
>> meaning in American English.
>
> He's as Aussie as I am
True but you're as Aussie as Paul G Derbyshire.
>
> --
> blue indigo
> UA Telecom since 1987
That signature was chosen to suggest you have been employed by uatel.com for
22 years. Yet you tell us that Larry K. Wollensham is your flatmate (as a
way of explaining why you share an IP-address)*. After 22 years employment
in a telecoms company (which would make you at least 43 years old), why are
you sharing a flat like an impoverished 20-year old? Maybe when you describe
Larry as a flatmate you are using a euphemism? That's OK then but why not be
more open about it?
Larry K. Wollensham shares an IP-address with blue indigo just as Paul G
Derbyshire shares an IP-address with Jerry Gerrone.
http://tinyurl.com/dgmdoa
I see that uatel.com is a small telecoms company in Andover Massachusetts
USA. A lot nearer to Ottawa Canada than to Australia.
While Paul was being moderately successful at simulating a normal
personality I was uninclined to comment. He seems to be reverting to his old
obnoxious, tediously argumentative and long-winded ways with this particular
alias though.
G'day cobber!
blue indigo
> "blue indigo" <blue....@uatel.com.nospam.bogus.invalid.invalid.invalid>
> wrote in message
> news:pan.2009.02.28....@uatel.com.nospam.bogus.invalid.invalid...
>> On Fri, 27 Feb 2009 14:05:23 -0800, Lew wrote:
>>
>>> Larry K. Wollensham wrote:
>>>> I really do hope you're taking the piss.
>>>
>>> You're not from the U.S., are you? That expression has a rather rude
>>> meaning in American English.
>>
>> He's as Aussie as I am
>
> True but you're as Aussie as Paul G Derbyshire.
I'm ignoring the rest of the nonsense in your post, but there are a few
side points that I wish to reply to.
I'm not here to argue with you, mate, so don't expect any further replies
from me to any more posts like this from you.
>> blue indigo
>> UA Telecom since 1987
>
> That signature was chosen to suggest you have been employed by uatel.com
> for 22 years. Yet you tell us that Larry K. Wollensham is your flatmate
> (as a way of explaining why you share an IP-address)*. After 22 years
> employment in a telecoms company (which would make you at least 43 years
> old)
47, actually.
> Maybe when you describe Larry as a flatmate you are using a euphemism?
> That's OK then but why not be more open about it?
Whether or not I am gay is frankly none of your business. To raise the
subject in a Java newsgroup of all places is quite inappropriate and
likely to be quite offensive to some people.
But if you must know, no, actually I am not, and neither is Larry, who is
silly enough to sometimes bring girls back to our place, though it's
usually a mess and I'm likely to be the three that's a crowd.
Perhaps you hadn't noticed that there's a major housing and banking
recession going on around the world? It's just not very economical for
unmarried men of any age to have a whole mortgage to themselves these days. :-)
Truth be told, though, it also gets a bit lonely or even boring living
alone, which I did for a while. Boarding with a friend is both more
interesting and more economical.
> I see that uatel.com is a small telecoms company in Andover
> Massachusetts USA.
Actually, I have not been 100% honest about the company name in either my
organization header or my sig. I don't want anyone to think what I write
here is me speaking for the company, and neither does the company's legal
department, so I altered the name slightly. I'm surprised to hear that the
altered name actually exists; but since it is not in Australia I doubt
there's any real risk of confusion.
I might change it to be more clearly bogus. It is true that I have worked
for my company since 1983 however, and that it is a telecom.
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
I would definitely like to. I've had too many years of this for it to be
fun any longer. However, I need $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
I've got used to Netbeans now.
However, in the past I've used Vi and the thankfully now dead Edlin.
Both of which I disliked intensely.
And yeah - real men write entire commercial websites with database
integration using only Vi and assembler. The rest are pussies.
Arne Vajhøj
> there are some simplified "training wheels" IDEs that won't overwhelm
> you such as BlueJ. See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/ide.html
In my experience people learning Java via BlueJ have problems
when they need to migrate into let us call it the real world.
Arne
Arne Vajhøj
And in my experience learning enough vi to be able to basic stuff
is almost a must.
It is not that unusual to have a telnet (read: ssh) connection
into a *nix system where vi is the only available option.
So basic vi skills are like knowing how to replace a wheel
with a flat type.
You don't need it every day, but some day you will need it - and
it is damn inconvenient if you can't do it.
Arne
Jerry Gerrone
> Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
>
> >>> I just don't like having to do it [learning an IDE] every other week.
> Lew wrote:
> >> So just pick one and learn it only in one week, and re-use that
> >> knowledge in every other week.
>
> Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
>
> > Not so easy when writing in multiple languages for multiple OSs and
> > embedded processors.
>
> Seems to me you are in the wrong business, then.
>
> > I had almost mastered MFC just before .NET appeared...
> > Still, I'm trying to keep it to Java, C# and C++ plus some DSP assembler
>
> One good Java IDE, or even a good editor like emacs or vi, is all you need.
*ROTFL*
Emacs ... vi ... "good editor" ... hehehehe! Hahahahaha! That was a
good one.
Not.
Either will drive most normal human beings batty within hours, if not
minutes.
Be careful. :)
Jerry Gerrone
> Lew wrote:
> >> One good Java IDE, or even a good editor like emacs or vi, is all you need.
>
> Larry K. Wollensham wrote:
> > For sufficiently mind-bending definitions of "a good editor", maybe. :-)
> > [rant against emacs and vi snipped] ...
>
> Now don't go straw-manning my point into an issue over whether emacs
> or vi are the only choices. Just because you don't like them doesn't
> mean they aren't good editors; it only means that you have not found
> it worthwhile to undergo the training to use their power.
>
Now don't go mistaking his post for a rant. It looked like a fairly
mild "I tried these and couldn't get used to them" post to me. The
closest it came to criticizing the editors themselves was to describe
them as "mind-bending", which I doubt any reasonable person used to
Windows editors would honestly disagree with.
Now, if you want to read a *real* rant about emacs or vi ... well, you
know which thread to dredge up from the bowels of Google Groups if
that's what turns you on, and whose posts in it to read. :)
Jerry Gerrone
> Lew wrote:
> > Lew wrote:
> >>> One good Java IDE, or even a good editor like emacs or vi, is all you need.
>
> > Larry K. Wollensham wrote:
> >> For sufficiently mind-bending definitions of "a good editor", maybe. :-)
> >> [rant against emacs and vi snipped] ...
>
> I don't think "Larry" is for real. There's a high probability that he's
> Twisted
BZZZT!
Wrong!
[X][ ][ ]
> taking this opportunity to continue his war on emacs, vi, and
> Unix/Linux.
What war? I criticized specific problematic elements in the usability
of specific applications, and the tendency of *most* Unix operating
systems to provide at best an incomplete set of tools with modern UIs
to do system tasks. This was done in the interests of constructive
debate and actual improvement of the products at issue. Far from being
a war, it is at attempt to actually help Unix and Linux. That you
cannot see this ... well, I think it's already been said. Several
times. :P
Jerry Gerrone
If I understand what you mean by that phrase: so do I.
Jerry Gerrone
<blue.ind...@uatel.com.nospam.bogus.invalid.invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Feb 2009 12:24:01 -0500, Larry K. Wollensham wrote:
> > One time he went to go take a leak and I tried to play a prank on him.
> > He had an emacs window open with what looked like a list of filenames
> > and I thought it would be funny to change one of them to say "vegemite"
> > (don't ask) instead of "virtulite" or something, see if he noticed
> > before he tried to use the name somewhere and got a file not found
> > error. But emacs went wild when I tried to type into it and I think it
> > even asked me if I was sure I wanted to delete some file. Yikes!
> > Needless to say I told it no and backed away very slowly. :-)
>
> It was probably a dired buffer or a grep buffer.
>
> As I told you once before, it sometimes is better to think of emacs as
> being a shell and editor combined, not just an editor.
Yeah -- the shell from hell, perhaps. :)
> > I saw him use vi once a couple years ago when something had gone
> > catastrophically wrong with his machine and the X-Windows wouldn't work.
> > He was typing in the main part of the keyboard, not hitting control or
> > alt or anything, and the cursor was moving up and down, jumping around,
> > and deleting things instead of just typing in new text.
>
> Magic. :-)
Crufty modes, more like. I think vi was designed for some really old
terminals that had no function/movement keys, only the keys found on
an actual typewriter. Of course, it has since gained support for the
dedicated movement keys; that some people like to sit at it and
pretend they're using one of those old terminals with green glowing
text over a 300 baud modem connection ... well, live and let live, I
say, as long as they aren't recommending their kink be adopted by all
and sundry.
> > Then came Windows Vista. I think I might try that version he recommended
> > -- Ubundu or something like that
>
> Ubuntu.
Which I have actually been meaning to try, as soon as I have a spare
computer I can wipe and reinstall without pain.
> > (Does Eclipse work there? It's Java so it should right?)
>
> Yes.
In theory, anyway.
> > Anyway, mate, the upshot is I'd say those unix editors are perhaps an
> > acquired taste and not for everyone.
>
> This, I'd agree with.
That's putting it mildly. At best. :)
> > Dirk might want to try one, but if he doesn't like the idea of spending
> > a lot of time learning NetBeans or Eclipse, I doubt he's going to like
> > either emacs or vi.
>
> This is also likely true, though unfortunate.
I agreed with you right up to the "though unfortunate" part. :)
(Dirk's own subsequent posts appear to confirm this, and also indicate
he had prior vi exposure that provoked one of the usual sorts of
allergic reaction.)
Jerry Gerrone
<haroldphill...@live.invalid> wrote:
> "blue indigo" <blue.ind...@uatel.com.nospam.bogus.invalid.invalid.invalid>
> wrote in messagenews:pan.2009.02.28....@uatel.com.nospam.bogus.invalid.invalid.invalid...
>
> > On Fri, 27 Feb 2009 14:05:23 -0800, Lew wrote:
>
> >> Larry K. Wollensham wrote:
> >>> I really do hope you're taking the piss.
>
> >> You're not from the U.S., are you? That expression has a rather rude
> >> meaning in American English.
>
> > He's as Aussie as I am
>
> True but you're as Aussie as Paul G Derbyshire.
>
> other nonsense, deleted]
As explained previously, I find it necessary to assume that all
insults aimed at "Paul" here are actually intended for me, and respond
in both of our defense. To set the record straight:
* I am not Paul. Nor am I blue indigo.
* None of the nasty things that you have said or implied are
true of me.
* I don't know whether the insults are true of Paul, or of
blue indigo, or whether blue indigo is Paul, but I very much
doubt that either would appreciate your insulting or
speculating about him.
By the way, in case you hadn't noticed, blue indigo has been one of my
biggest *enemies*.
Moron.
To all of my enemies: your internal divisions and paranoid tendencies
will inevitably be your undoing. Divided you fall. So you may as well
all give up now and accept defeat, and start leaving me the Christ
alone!
Jerry Gerrone
> Basic vi skills are like knowing how to replace a wheel
> with a flat type.
This really does say it all, doesn't it? Even if unintentionally. ;)