[OT] Indian C programmers and "u"
Joona I Palaste
single* Indian C programmer I have seen on this newsgroup writes "u"
for "you"? Many manage otherwise perfectly grammatical English but
that one mistake sticks out. Do they have a law in India forcing
schools to teach mangled English or something?
--
/-- Joona Palaste (pal...@cc.helsinki.fi) ------------- Finland --------\
\-- http://www.helsinki.fi/~palaste --------------------- rules! --------/
"Shh! The maestro is decomposing!"
- Gary Larson
Nils Petter Vaskinn
> Why is it that *every
> single* Indian C programmer I have seen on this newsgroup writes "u" for
> "you"?
Because when they don't you don't notice that they are from india.
> Many manage otherwise perfectly grammatical English but that one mistake
> sticks out.
Perhaps it's a miguided attempt at beeing 1337 ?
Or perhaps that they're better at spoken english more than english (a
significant amount of people learn most of their english from TV) and the
fact that "u" and "you" sound the same leads to the mistake.
--
NPV
"the large print giveth, and the small print taketh away"
Tom Waits - Step right up
Naren
Not at all ,I would say that this slang we have learnt from westerners
while we communicate with them.They most of the times use "u" for
"you","coz" for "because",and many more.
I think this makes communication rather informal and it also is stylish..:-)
Of course nowadays it has become a trend to use these slangs.
Do you agree with it?
Best Regards,
Naren.
"Nils Petter Vaskinn" <n...@spam.for.me.invalid> wrote in message
news:pan.2003.11.25....@spam.for.me.invalid...
Nils Petter Vaskinn
> They most of the times use "u" for
> "you","coz" for "because",and many more.
>
> I think this makes communication rather informal
But in a newsgroup discussing C beeing as formal and accurate as possible
is desirable.
> and it also is stylish..:-)
I disagree.
> Of course nowadays it has become a trend to use these slangs.
>
> Do you agree with it?
That it has become a trend: yes. That it is stylish and a good idea: no.
There are people reading the group that are not too good at english, slang
makes things harder for them so it should be avoided.
Mistakes are ok, writing less readable to be cool (or because typing
because is too much work compared to coz) is not.
Everything here is ofcourse my opinion, other readers of clc may disagree
with me.
Richard Bos
[ Please do not top-post. And please do learn to snip. ]
> "Nils Petter Vaskinn" <n...@spam.for.me.invalid> wrote in message
> news:pan.2003.11.25....@spam.for.me.invalid...
> > On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 11:18:36 +0000, Joona I Palaste wrote:
> >
> > > Why is it that *every
> > > single* Indian C programmer I have seen on this newsgroup writes "u" for
> > > "you"?
> > Perhaps it's a miguided attempt at beeing 1337 ?
> >
> > Or perhaps that they're better at spoken english more than english (a
> > significant amount of people learn most of their english from TV) and the
> > fact that "u" and "you" sound the same leads to the mistake.
> Not at all ,I would say that this slang we have learnt from westerners
> while we communicate with them.They most of the times use "u" for
> "you","coz" for "because",and many more.
You must only have communicated with school children and script kiddies
(frequently the same thing), because they are the only people I can
think of who regularly use d00dsp33k. The rest of us know that it makes
us look illiterate.
> I think this makes communication rather informal
Informal, and awkward.
> and it also is stylish..:-)
For values of "stylish" that also include the day-glo tracksuit, the
purple PVC couch, and driving circles around the block on your scooter,
perhaps.
> Of course nowadays it has become a trend to use these slangs.
In some circles, yes, but not in any circles with which a serious
programmer wishes to be associated, frankly.
Richard
Anupam
> I've been wondering about this for too long. Why is it that *every
> single* Indian C programmer I have seen on this newsgroup writes "u"
> for "you"? Many manage otherwise perfectly grammatical English but
> that one mistake sticks out. Do they have a law in India forcing
> schools to teach mangled English or something?
Not *every single* Indian C [or see] programmer. [Yo]u will find
a very small percentage of my posts containing the SMS lingo. At the
roots of this is a socio-developmental cause. That would be quite OT I
should think. The fact that it is a third world country may have
something to do with it. It is easy to be judgemental sitting in the
comforts of an AC cabin in places where people are paid good cash and
given free cars as social benefit for doing absolutely nothing. Here
education is a luxury, not a sure fire access scheme. People go to
great lengths to achieve it. Some of the people who do the posting may
have learnt from local language schools.. maybe that would be a valid
cause ... A good percentage of us learn it purely from the foreign
media. In fact it is a tribute to the tenacity of our people that BPO
is coming to us in a major way.
When choosing between grammer and food the choice may not be too
difficult. Regardless, there is an increasing percentage of people
specially in the cities who are Anglicised in the real sense of the
term. In concluding, I would just have to say that judge
Indians/Mexicans/Martians...and any other creature not on the basis of
the outward characteristics, but on the inner correctness as a whole.
And don't go at nations/communities ... with the advent of the
Internet and globalisation we should be moving out of that phase at
least now. For too long we have been involved in uncivilised groupings
which served our purposes in the long dead past. Now look at the
future and a removal of barriers and not vice versa.
<\OT>
Christopher Benson-Manica
> Of course nowadays it has become a trend to use these slangs.
> Do you agree with it?
No. In an intellectual environment (such as comp.lang.c), there's no
place for slangy shorthand, at least not if you want to sound
intelligent and be taken seriously (IMHO).
--
Christopher Benson-Manica | I *should* know what I'm talking about - if I
ataru(at)cyberspace.org | don't, I need to know. Flames welcome.
CBFalconer
Naren wrote:
> "Nils Petter Vaskinn" <n...@spam.for.me.invalid> wrote in message
> > On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 11:18:36 +0000, Joona I Palaste wrote:
> >
> > > Why is it that *every single* Indian C programmer I have seen
> > > on this newsgroup writes "u" for "you"?
> >
> > Because when they don't you don't notice that they are from
> > india.
> >
> > > Many manage otherwise perfectly grammatical English but that
> > > one mistake sticks out.
> >
> > Perhaps it's a miguided attempt at beeing 1337 ?
> >
> > Or perhaps that they're better at spoken english more than
> > english (a significant amount of people learn most of their
> > english from TV) and the fact that "u" and "you" sound the
> > same leads to the mistake.
>
> Not at all ,I would say that this slang we have learnt from
> westerners while we communicate with them.They most of the
> times use "u" for "you","coz" for "because",and many more.
Then you have been hanging out with an extremely low class and
ignorant group of westerners. They seem to also have taught you
to top-post and to omit blanks following periods and commas.
>
> I think this makes communication rather informal and it also
> is stylish..:-)
>
> Of course nowadays it has become a trend to use these slangs.
>
> Do you agree with it?
No. It makes communication awkward, hard, and often erroneous.
--
Chuck F (cbfal...@yahoo.com) (cbfal...@worldnet.att.net)
Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems.
<http://cbfalconer.home.att.net> USE worldnet address!
Chris Dollin
> Hello,
> Not at all ,I would say that this slang we have learnt from westerners
> while we communicate with them.They most of the times use "u" for
> "you","coz" for "because",and many more.
Many westerners do not abbreviate like that. This one, for example.
> I think this makes communication rather informal and it also is
> stylish..:-)
Stylish, like yoghurt in the engine oil, doesn't have to mean "good".
> Of course nowadays it has become a trend to use these slangs.
Not *here* it hasn't. No more so than thenadays.
> Do you agree with it?
Probably not.
--
Chris "electric hedgehog" Dollin
C FAQs at: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/by-newsgroup/comp/comp.lang.c.html
C welcome: http://www.angelfire.com/ms3/bchambless0/welcome_to_clc.html
Alan Balmer
(Anupam) wrote:
> When choosing between grammer and food the choice may not be too
>difficult.
I find it difficult to believe that anyone posting here must make that
choice.
--
Al Balmer
Balmer Consulting
removebalmerc...@att.net
Martin Ambuhl
> Hello,
> Not at all ,I would say that this slang we have learnt from westerners
> while we communicate with them.They most of the times use "u" for
> "you","coz" for "because",and many more.
You need to serious rethink which "westerners" you choose to copy.
Illiterates and warez-kinder are not a reasonable choice.
>
> I think this makes communication rather informal and it also is stylish..:-)
No, it is not informal or stylish. It marks the user as an idiot. There
is nothing stylish about being a fool.
> Of course nowadays it has become a trend to use these slangs.
That something might be trendy does not make it right, stylish, informal,
cool, or intelligent. It does not show independence of thought or
rebellion at convention, but rather complete subservience to the stupidity
of the day. It does mark the user with a "group identity," namely as being
one of the brainless children.
--
Martin Ambuhl
Thomas Matthews
> Joona I Palaste <pal...@cc.helsinki.fi> wrote in message news:<bpvdqc$iv8$1...@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>...
>
>>I've been wondering about this for too long. Why is it that *every
>>single* Indian C programmer I have seen on this newsgroup writes "u"
>>for "you"? Many manage otherwise perfectly grammatical English but
>>that one mistake sticks out. Do they have a law in India forcing
>>schools to teach mangled English or something?
> People go to
> great lengths to achieve it. Some of the people who do the posting may
> have learnt from local language schools.. maybe that would be a valid
> cause ... A good percentage of us learn it purely from the foreign
> media.
I was taught that the past tense of "learn" is "learned" not "learnt".
Is "learnt" from the Queen's / King's english or from the lazy tongues
of some American suburbs?
--
Thomas Matthews
C++ newsgroup welcome message:
http://www.slack.net/~shiva/welcome.txt
C++ Faq: http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite
C Faq: http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/c-faq/top.html
alt.comp.lang.learn.c-c++ faq:
http://www.raos.demon.uk/acllc-c++/faq.html
Other sites:
http://www.josuttis.com -- C++ STL Library book
Dan Pop
>I've been wondering about this for too long. Why is it that *every
>single* Indian C programmer I have seen on this newsgroup writes "u"
>for "you"?
You must have a very selective vision. There are plenty of
counterexamples, posted during the last 24 hours.
>Many manage otherwise perfectly grammatical English but
>that one mistake sticks out. Do they have a law in India forcing
>schools to teach mangled English or something?
The abbreviation is particularly common among Americans, especially not
the very educated ones. Non-native English speakers see it on the
Internet and, not knowing any better, think that it's a cute/clever
idea.
Dan
--
Dan Pop
DESY Zeuthen, RZ group
Email: Dan...@ifh.de
Alan Balmer
<Thomas_Matthews...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>Anupam wrote:
>
>> Joona I Palaste <pal...@cc.helsinki.fi> wrote in message news:<bpvdqc$iv8$1...@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>...
>>
>>>I've been wondering about this for too long. Why is it that *every
>>>single* Indian C programmer I have seen on this newsgroup writes "u"
>>>for "you"? Many manage otherwise perfectly grammatical English but
>>>that one mistake sticks out. Do they have a law in India forcing
>>>schools to teach mangled English or something?
>
>> People go to
>> great lengths to achieve it. Some of the people who do the posting may
>> have learnt from local language schools.. maybe that would be a valid
>> cause ... A good percentage of us learn it purely from the foreign
>> media.
>
>I was taught that the past tense of "learn" is "learned" not "learnt".
>Is "learnt" from the Queen's / King's english or from the lazy tongues
>of some American suburbs?
"Learnt" is an acceptable past tense and past participle of "learn",
as is "learned." The latter is much more common.
When I grew up in the Pennsylvania countryside, "learn" as a synonym
for "teach" was still in common use by folks of my grandfather's
generation.
Default User
>
> I've been wondering about this for too long. Why is it that *every
> single* Indian C programmer I have seen on this newsgroup writes "u"
> for "you"? Many manage otherwise perfectly grammatical English but
> that one mistake sticks out. Do they have a law in India forcing
> schools to teach mangled English or something?
While annoying, I see plenty of good old 'Mericans doing the same thing.
The one I wonder about is the frequent use of the word "doubt" to mean
"question". Is this something being taught in English classes in India?
It happens so frequently that I wonder.
[crossed to AFT-S for newsfeed reasons]
Brian Rodenborn
Anupam
> Joona I Palaste <pal...@cc.helsinki.fi> wrote in message news:<bpvdqc$iv8$1...@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>...
> > I've been wondering about this for too long. Why is it that *every
> > single* Indian C programmer I have seen on this newsgroup writes "u"
> > for "you"? Many manage otherwise perfectly grammatical English but
> > that one mistake sticks out. Do they have a law in India forcing
> > schools to teach mangled English or something?
<OT>
Also please have the decency to mention off-topic when it is so. And
what you people are writing is potential high flame material. Dont
think that your C knowledge gives you the right to make judgemental
decisions about races and peoples as a whole. Rascism might be hip
where you belong. But as flag bearers of the intellectual elite dont
behave like a bunch of illiterates. I would have a lot to say about
the hypocrisy of the so called developed (*financially*) nations as a
whole if I wanted to do so but this is definitely not the right
platform to do so. Remember the loads of times you have flamed people
for being off topic and dont be cowards without the heart and the
knowledge to say sorry when you know you are wrong.
PS. At least the OP mentioned OT in his header(headers are not
visible in all mail clients ,still...). Others seem to have lost all
track of their self-made conventions.
<\OT>
Anuj Heer
country as a third world country. come on man be proud to be an
indian. we do what we do because we are the best and programming is
one feild where we are the trend setters. so who cannot bear with us
and our whims can go to hell. i am sorry if it sounds a bit harsh but
that's the way it is. we don't need extensive support structure to
make us the best programmers in the world. we do it on our own without
any outside help and mostly with outdated computers. but let me tell
you my most out dated computer will outrun your fastest computer
anyday. so just learn to live with it.
anuj
hp-...@vcustomer.net
Christopher Benson-Manica
> I was taught that the past tense of "learn" is "learned" not "learnt".
> Is "learnt" from the Queen's / King's english or from the lazy tongues
> of some American suburbs?
"Learnt" is perfectly acceptable, although its use is diminishing. It
was good enough for E.M. Forster in his 1908 novella "The Machine
Stops," in any case. I personally think it sounds more interesting
and poetic, FWTW.
Keith Thompson
> Hello,
> Not at all ,I would say that this slang we have learnt from westerners
> while we communicate with them.They most of the times use "u" for
> "you","coz" for "because",and many more.
>
> I think this makes communication rather informal and it also is stylish..:-)
>
> Of course nowadays it has become a trend to use these slangs.
>
> Do you agree with it?
I think the comments to the effect that those who use "u" for "you"
are illiterate, ignorant, or stupid are a bit overblown. It's all
just ones and zeros, after all; it's not *that* big a deal.
However, using "u" for "you", "coz" for "because", etc., does make the
writer appear significantly less literate, knowledgeable, and
intelligent. I'm sure that's not the intent, but it's definitely how
it comes across. (It's a sign of ignorance, but it's ignorance of the
100% curable sort.)
If you're typing short text messages on a cell phone keyboard, it
probably makes sense to abbreviate aggressively. Here in comp.lang.c,
we'll all appreciate it greatly if you'll take the extra fraction of a
second to spell out "you" and "because".
--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) ks...@mib.org <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
San Diego Supercomputer Center <*> <http://www.sdsc.edu/~kst>
Schroedinger does Shakespeare: "To be *and* not to be"
(Note new e-mail address)
Joona I Palaste
> "Naren" <narendra...@de.bosch.com> writes:
>> Hello,
>> Not at all ,I would say that this slang we have learnt from westerners
>> while we communicate with them.They most of the times use "u" for
>> "you","coz" for "because",and many more.
>>
>> I think this makes communication rather informal and it also is stylish..:-)
>>
>> Of course nowadays it has become a trend to use these slangs.
>>
>> Do you agree with it?
> I think the comments to the effect that those who use "u" for "you"
> are illiterate, ignorant, or stupid are a bit overblown. It's all
> just ones and zeros, after all; it's not *that* big a deal.
Luckily I was not saying that Indian C programmers were illiterate,
ignorant, or stupid. They're not. (Well, some of the might be, but
not nearly all.)
> However, using "u" for "you", "coz" for "because", etc., does make the
> writer appear significantly less literate, knowledgeable, and
> intelligent. I'm sure that's not the intent, but it's definitely how
> it comes across. (It's a sign of ignorance, but it's ignorance of the
> 100% curable sort.)
This was my point. If you're otherwise capable of perfectly
grammatical English, the "u" sticks out irritatingly.
> If you're typing short text messages on a cell phone keyboard, it
> probably makes sense to abbreviate aggressively. Here in comp.lang.c,
> we'll all appreciate it greatly if you'll take the extra fraction of a
> second to spell out "you" and "because".
At least *I* will.
--
/-- Joona Palaste (pal...@cc.helsinki.fi) ------------- Finland --------\
\-- http://www.helsinki.fi/~palaste --------------------- rules! --------/
"The large yellow ships hung in the sky in exactly the same way that bricks
don't."
- Douglas Adams
Dan Pop
>The one I wonder about is the frequent use of the word "doubt" to mean
>"question". Is this something being taught in English classes in India?
>It happens so frequently that I wonder.
My theory is that this is a mistake induced by the native language of
the poster, where the same word could be used for both.
A typical, but non-obvious example is "eventually". When used by a
non-native English speaker, it is very likely that it was not supposed
to actually mean "eventually", but "probably" (as in most other European
languages).
Dan Pop
>I was taught that the past tense of "learn" is "learned" not "learnt".
>Is "learnt" from the Queen's / King's english or from the lazy tongues
>of some American suburbs?
According to one of the most popular Web dictionaries, the former:
Main Entry: learnt
Pronunciation: 'l&rnt
chiefly British past and past participle of LEARN
Jeff
> I've been wondering about this for too long. Why is it that *every
> single* Indian C programmer I have seen on this newsgroup writes "u"
> for "you"? Many manage otherwise perfectly grammatical English but
> that one mistake sticks out. Do they have a law in India forcing
> schools to teach mangled English or something?
>
For one thing, this makes it tougher to search indian source code....
Jeff
J. J. Farrell
>
> single* Indian C programmer I have seen on this newsgroup writes "u"
> for "you"? Many manage otherwise perfectly grammatical English but
> that one mistake sticks out.
It's not every Indian (how do you know which posters are or aren't
Indian?), nor is it exclusively Indians. Nor, I believe, is it a
mistake in most cases. It's usually an ugly abbreviation used by
people who have come to on-line communication through certain
routes, such as text message phones and forums inhabited by d00d3.
They're moving into the grown-up world but haven't yet learned to
drop the baby-talk.
> Do they have a law in India forcing
> schools to teach mangled English or something?
Many schools in India teach excellent English. I've come across a
good number of young Indian C programmers whose English language
skills (both spoken and written) are far superior to many of their
contemporaries in both England and the USA.
J. J. Farrell
>
> I would say that this slang we have learnt from westerners
> while we communicate with them.They most of the times use "u" for
> "you","coz" for "because",and many more.
In that case, you've been communicating largely with lazy, ignorant,
and/or puerile Westerners. I assure you that the vast majority of
Westerners do not use this silly slang.
> I think this makes communication rather informal and it also is stylish..:-)
Certainly informal, not in the least stylish. Also irritating,
annoying, difficult to read, and likely to make me not bother
replying to a request for help.
> Of course nowadays it has become a trend to use these slangs.
It does seem to be increasing. That does not make it a good thing.
Richard Heathfield
> And
> what you people are writing is potential high flame material.
I think it's unfortunate that the word "Indian" appears in the thread title,
since this infantile practice is in no way limited to citizens of India,
and neither do /all/ Indian C programmers (let alone all Indian citizens)
indulge in it.
> Dont
> think that your C knowledge gives you the right to make judgemental
> decisions about races and peoples as a whole.
This is nothing to do with races or peoples, and everything to do with
showing courtesy to one's readers.
<snip>
--
Richard Heathfield : bin...@eton.powernet.co.uk
"Usenet is a strange place." - Dennis M Ritchie, 29 July 1999.
C FAQ: http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html
K&R answers, C books, etc: http://users.powernet.co.uk/eton
Thomas Stegen
>
> You need to serious rethink which "westerners" you choose to copy.
> Illiterates and warez-kinder are not a reasonable choice.
Maybe rethink copying westerners alltogether...
:)
--
Thomas.
Thomas Stegen
> I was taught that the past tense of "learn" is "learned" not "learnt".
> Is "learnt" from the Queen's / King's english or from the lazy tongues
> of some American suburbs?
Learnt is a verb in past tense. Learned is an adjective
saying someone is educated.
Then again, you can also you learned to be the past tense...
--
Thomas.
pandapower
> The one I wonder about is the frequent use of the word "doubt" to mean
> "question". Is this something being taught in English classes in India?
> It happens so frequently that I wonder.
the bottom line is .. AMERICA rules ..
we dont have to be grammatically correct to learn the C language, and
as far as posting is concerned INDIA is not a English speaking country
.. so excuse people like you excuse people from non-english speaking
countries.And this is not a english(queen's) grammer teaching
newsgroup.
I dont understand the skepticism over indian programmers.Probably
there is some deep rooted fear.The root of anger is always fear :).
And are there no issues left that we need to discuss these issues.
excuse me if i did hurt anybody.
regards
Charles Richmond
>
> I've been wondering about this for too long. Why is it that *every
> single* Indian C programmer I have seen on this newsgroup writes "u"
> for "you"? Many manage otherwise perfectly grammatical English but
> schools to teach mangled English or something?
>
is *very* annoying to me to see it in email or posts to
newsgroups. Perhaps the Indians use chat rooms more???
--
+----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net |
+----------------------------------------------------------------+
Mark McIntyre
<narendra...@de.bosch.com> wrote:
>Hello,
(concerning txt splngs n usenet msgs)
>I think this makes communication rather informal and it also is stylish..:-)
The common view round here is that using txtspk is often a sign that
the poster is young, inexperienced, probably a newby, and certainly a
bit lazy. Its not that hard to type the whole word...
>Of course nowadays it has become a trend to use these slangs.
On phones. Do you write letters to your grandmother in sms?
>Do you agree with it?
Bah, humbug.
--
Mark McIntyre
CLC FAQ <http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html>
CLC readme: <http://www.angelfire.com/ms3/bchambless0/welcome_to_clc.html>
Mark McIntyre
<ke...@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
>Stylish, like yoghurt in the engine oil, doesn't have to mean "good".
You may have to explain that reference...
Mark McIntyre
Benson-Manica <at...@nospam.cyberspace.org> wrote:
>Thomas Matthews <Thomas_Matthews...@sbcglobal.net> spoke thus:
>
>> I was taught that the past tense of "learn" is "learned" not "learnt".
>> Is "learnt" from the Queen's / King's english or from the lazy tongues
>> of some American suburbs?
>
>"Learnt" is perfectly acceptable, although its use is diminishing
I have learned, or I learnt. Either is permissible. Isn't this past
and past historic?
Mike Wahler
news:3713912d.03112...@posting.google.com...
> > While annoying, I see plenty of good old 'Mericans doing the same thing.
> > The one I wonder about is the frequent use of the word "doubt" to mean
> > "question". Is this something being taught in English classes in India?
> > It happens so frequently that I wonder.
>
> the bottom line is .. AMERICA rules ..
Not me. And I live there.
My only 'ruler' is myself.
> we dont have to be grammatically correct to learn the C language,
But correct English (or whatever the language being used)
communication can greatly aid learning of any topic.
Poor language skills lead to misunderstanding.
> and
> as far as posting is concerned INDIA is not a English speaking country
Irrelevant.
> .. so excuse people like you excuse people from non-english speaking
> countries.
Many folks whose native tongue is not English do read and post here.
IMO allowances for nonfluency are indeed made here, sometimes with
helpful hints to a poster in the interest of improving their English,
thus their effective communication here.
>And this is not a english(queen's) grammer teaching
> newsgroup.
Grammar. :-)
No, but the language officially used in clc is indeed English.
>
> I dont understand the skepticism over indian programmers.
What skepticism? The several Indian programmers I've met
were almost all extremely knowledgable about programming.
I think this could be because an Indian individual typically
exercises more discipline with regard to learning, as opposed
to the typical American.
>Probably
> there is some deep rooted fear.The root of anger is always fear :).
Fear? Huh?
> And are there no issues left that we need to discuss these issues.
So why do you continue the thread?
> excuse me if i did hurt anybody.
I'm not hurt, but I will say that I think your ideas expressed
in your post represent misconceptions.
As for myself, I'd be very pleased to see all 'national' borders
completely disappear. Just five or six billion *individuals*
all respecting one another's individual rights, associating when
they desire, or not, when they don't.
-Mike
Mark
You would make a better case for yourself if you learned to use the
shift key (pun intended).
Please take your nationalistic chest pounding elsewhere, especially
since you seem to lack the intelligence to express it coherently.
Mark F. Haigh
mfh...@sbcglobal.net
Irrwahn Grausewitz
> On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 19:02:24 +0000 (UTC), in comp.lang.c , Christopher
> Benson-Manica <at...@nospam.cyberspace.org> wrote:
>
> >Thomas Matthews <Thomas_Matthews...@sbcglobal.net> spoke thus:
> >
> >> I was taught that the past tense of "learn" is "learned" not "learnt".
> >> Is "learnt" from the Queen's / King's english or from the lazy tongues
> >> of some American suburbs?
> >
> >"Learnt" is perfectly acceptable, although its use is diminishing
>
> I have learned, or I learnt. Either is permissible. Isn't this past
> and past historic?
According to my dictionary either of these is acceptable:
Past tense:
I learned. || I learnt.
Past participle:
I have learned. || I have learnt.
Regards
--
Irrwahn
(irrw...@freenet.de)
dfg
<Snip>
> For values of "stylish" that also include the day-glo tracksuit, the
> purple PVC couch, and driving circles around the block on your scooter,
> perhaps.
>
I kinda like those purple PVC couches... :-)
dfg
> I've been wondering about this for too long. Why is it that *every
> single* Indian C programmer I have seen on this newsgroup writes "u"
> for "you"? Many manage otherwise perfectly grammatical English but
> that one mistake sticks out. Do they have a law in India forcing
> schools to teach mangled English or something?
>
Do you realize that in some countries you have made yourself nearly
available for a civil suit because you are making a distinction between
Indian people. It could be seen as racial prejudice.
There was a safer way to post the message you wanted to get across.
Jirka Klaue
> Joona I Palaste wrote:
>
>> I've been wondering about this for too long. Why is it that *every
>> single* Indian C programmer I have seen on this newsgroup writes "u"
>> for "you"? Many manage otherwise perfectly grammatical English but
>> that one mistake sticks out. Do they have a law in India forcing
>> schools to teach mangled English or something?
>
> Do you realize that in some countries you have made yourself nearly
> available for a civil suit because you are making a distinction between
> Indian people.
Could you explain where the "distinction between Indian people" is made?
Jirka
Debashish Chakravarty
> schools to teach mangled English or something?
possible? What is the point of your bitter sarcasm?
Floyd Davidson
>In <3FC39555...@boeing.com.invalid> Default User <first...@boeing.com.invalid> writes:
>
>>The one I wonder about is the frequent use of the word "doubt" to mean
>>"question". Is this something being taught in English classes in India?
>>It happens so frequently that I wonder.
>
>My theory is that this is a mistake induced by the native language of
>the poster, where the same word could be used for both.
I doubt the extent of your English vocabulary.
A quick check in any dictionary should show that "doubt", used
as a transitive verb, means "question", and indeed "question"
will be listed as a synonym and/or as either part of the
definition or in the usage of the word.
Apparently this is less common today than it was historically,
because of the dictionaries that I did look at, newer ones use
it vaguely,
"... to consider questionable ..."
while older dictionaries are more explicit,
"doubt v.t. 1) to be uncertain about; question; feel
distrust of. ..."
This last from a 1968 edition.
--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) fl...@barrow.com
Heck
templates.
if ( u_love( _C ) )
honk();
Morris Dovey
> [ Default User (Brian Rodenborn) wrote: ]
>> While annoying, I see plenty of good old 'Mericans doing the
>> same thing. The one I wonder about is the frequent use of
>> the word "doubt" to mean "question". Is this something being
>> taught in English classes in India? It happens so frequently
>> that I wonder.
> the bottom line is .. AMERICA rules ..
Eh? This seems to me a very strange conclusion to draw from any
of the articles (including Brian's) posted thus far...
> we dont have to be grammatically correct to learn the C
> language, and as far as posting is concerned INDIA is not a
> English speaking country ... so excuse people like you excuse
> people from non-english speaking countries.And this is not a
> english(queen's) grammer teaching newsgroup.
True, there isn't a requirement that one be grammatically correct
in order to learn /anything/. I would suggest, however, that
learning might be facilitated by clear communication; and that
clear communication is, in turn, facilitated by the use of
language that does not distract from the message content.
Comp.lang.c (and other technical newsgroups) seem to value clear,
concise (and conventional) language skills. One of the norms of
the group is that articles/postings be in English. From time to
time people have been asked not to use extreme abbreviation in
their articles. Neither the norm nor the requests for
conventional language use have been directed toward them because
of their nationality.
Joona and Brian are both frequent posters to comp.lang.c; and
I've never seen evidence in any of their posts to indicate bias
against anyone because of their nationality. I think both asked
questions, not to offend, but because they each hoped to learn
something.
> I dont understand the skepticism over indian programmers.
> Probably there is some deep rooted fear.The root of anger is
> always fear :).
I'm not sure there is any (general) skepticism. My personal guess
would be that about half are above average and about half are
below average. If you tell me that <any nationality> programmers
are either all above average or all below average, /then/ I might
have reason to be skeptical...
> And are there no issues left that we need to discuss these issues.
Oh, sorry. I'm a maverick who finds "unfair" and "unjust" topical
- because they seriously impair any group's ability to function.
--
Morris Dovey
West Des Moines, Iowa USA
C links at http://www.iedu.com/c
Read my lips: The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.
Anupam
> On 25 Nov 2003 06:41:00 -0800, anupam_m...@persistent.co.in
> (Anupam) wrote:
>
> > When choosing between grammer and food the choice may not be too
> >difficult.
>
> I find it difficult to believe that anyone posting here must make that
> choice.
<OT>
Oh I assure you that you have no idea. I know people in the IITs and
BITS Pilani which are among the premier institutions of India who
properly go on one meal a day to support their education.
Let me tell you about an incident in an engineering college here. It
is a tradition in the under-grad colleges that freshers have to face a
round of introductions before being inducted into the college
community. So my elder brother was getting a junior freshman to
introduce himself. Everything was done and over with. Now at the end
of the session he decided to treat this chap to a nice dinner to have
everything straightened out. So he invited him over to a nearby
restaurant for a big dinner. Till now the guy was pretty cool about
stuff. But now he refused to touch the food. This inspite of the fact
that he was a freshman and it is not exactly politically correct to
refuse anything to a senior. At this my brother pressed a bit at him.
He broke into tears and said that his family had sold their entire
farmland for securing him an admission to BITS. He said that it would
be vulgar of him to partake of such an enormous meal when his family
have to live on menial labour and possibly only one meal a day. Where
would you think this guy would have achance to learn the Queen's
English. The motivation which got him into BITS was good enough. To
expect him to have perfect English sense would be an overkill. By the
way I'm sure he would now be a high placed individual with a great
deal of academic and career-wise success coming his way.
<\OT>
James Hu
> we dont have to be grammatically correct to learn the C language,
However, it makes it easier to communicate with each other.
> and
> as far as posting is concerned INDIA is not a English speaking country
I thought English was one of the official languages in India.
-- James
Anupam
<OT>
At the end of this sick series of messages I would only like to say
that this discussion has shaken me to the core. There is a lot of
hatred around. that is all I can see. I would not like to contribute
to this any more. I will only reply further in this thread if there is
a factual misrepresentation anywhere. Pardon my English and may God
forgive you for your intolerant attitude.
As far as Joona Palaste goes, I respect this person's knowledge of
the C programming language and postings on even my school groups
mention your website as a good resource to look into.I have enjoyed a
lot of beautiful discussions on the C language in all its infinite
breadth since I joined this group. I am highly saddened by the turn
this has taken. And yet I have admired many things about western
countries. But in the year 2003, all that you still see are
reflections of the groupisms of the real world. One would expect that
we as a race of humans would have learnt.. or learned (I don't care..
I am not a linguistic God ... at no point of time have I said I am)
from our experiences in the real world ... from wars which have still
left there scars from times much before my birth ... from the
thousands of people dead and dying and living in pitiable conditions
across the globe even as I type ... and why?... only due to an
amplification of the traits seen here.
As far as one of my countrymen remarked, I would only like to say
that I respect my country a lot... but beyond that I respect my world
.. and even beyond that the Truth. Please infer the meaning inherent
in my remarks after looking through this sieve.
<\OT>
Richard Heathfield
> Joona I Palaste wrote:
>>
>> I've been wondering about this for too long. Why is it that *every
>> single* Indian C programmer I have seen on this newsgroup writes "u"
>> for "you"? Many manage otherwise perfectly grammatical English but
>> that one mistake sticks out. [...]
>>
> Crap like that seems to be acceptable in "chat rooms".
Not in the channels I use. People using such lame abbreviations are
generally kicked (or even banned), unless there are extreme mitigating
circumstances.
Anupam
> i do agree with anupam. but he seems to have a very poor image of his
> country as a third world country. come on man be proud to be an
> indian. we do what we do because we are the best and programming is
> one feild where we are the trend setters. so who cannot bear with us
> and our whims can go to hell. i am sorry if it sounds a bit harsh but
> that's the way it is. we don't need extensive support structure to
> make us the best programmers in the world. we do it on our own without
> any outside help and mostly with outdated computers. but let me tell
> you my most out dated computer will outrun your fastest computer
> anyday. so just learn to live with it.
> hp-...@vcustomer.net
First of all please do not live inside a self-imposed bubble of the
ever endearing city life. Who said that money is the be-all and
end-all. Satisfaction is what the poor farmer has.. much beyond what
u and i do. Think about it. A splintered life with all the money and
all the conveniences but no truth. Oh village life is one big peace of
mind. Be there.. then you will understand. Many of the people here and
everywhere get frustrated and done in when they think about where it
is going. What the hell are you doing anyway...Coding for 10 years ...
then becoming a manager. Marrying ..producing kids... and dying at the
age of 60... Living the same live as countless others.. Financial
poverty can enrich.. believe me.
A good programmer.. a really good one.. is in it for other things
besides money.
No one country is the trend setter in anything. No community is good
at programming as a whole... thats :). I just wanted to correct a
misconception that someone had. Just look at a people posting on this
group and you will see a veritable cross-section of the world.
dfg
Now that I look, perhaps there is none. The post from Joona really
bothered me at first and I should not have written a reply as quickly as
I did.
All said and done however, I believe that this post should have been
worded much more carefully. It was quite unlike his regular postings.
Richard Heathfield
> Alan Balmer <alba...@att.net> wrote in message
> news:<0p07svga4c2to82bf...@4ax.com>...
>> On 25 Nov 2003 06:41:00 -0800, anupam_m...@persistent.co.in
>> (Anupam) wrote:
>>
>> > When choosing between grammer and food the choice may not be too
>> >difficult.
>>
>> I find it difficult to believe that anyone posting here must make that
>> choice.
> <OT>
> Oh I assure you that you have no idea.
Oh I assure you that he does. The choice is not between grammar and food
(which would be like choosing between a tractor and the President of
Italy), but between clear and unclear communication.
Those who seek help would do well to communicate clearly with those from
whom they seek help.
Most of those who provide help in this newsgroup are very patient with those
for whom English is not their first language, and rightly so. Nobody here
expects perfect grammar, spelling, and punctuation in every article.
Indeed, it is generally considered unacceptable to criticise someone's
article purely on spelling grounds. But where the writer is *deliberately*
obfuscating the communication for mere reasons of so-called "style", he is
abusing the newsgroup, and it is perfectly sensible to ask him to drop the
133tn3s5 and write intelligibly.
Jirka Klaue
> Jirka Klaue wrote:
>> dfg wrote:
>>> Joona I Palaste wrote:
>>>
>>>> I've been wondering about this for too long. Why is it that *every
>>>> single* Indian C programmer I have seen on this newsgroup writes "u"
>>>> for "you"? Many manage otherwise perfectly grammatical English but
>>>> that one mistake sticks out. Do they have a law in India forcing
>>>> schools to teach mangled English or something?
>>>
>>> Do you realize that in some countries you have made yourself nearly
>>> available for a civil suit because you are making a distinction
>>> between Indian people.
>>
>> Could you explain where the "distinction between Indian people" is made?
>
> bothered me at first and I should not have written a reply as quickly as
> I did.
>
> All said and done however, I believe that this post should have been
> worded much more carefully.
He shouldn't have posted this at all.
> It was quite unlike his regular postings.
It's not the first of this kind, though.
Jirka
Richard Heathfield
> Joona I Palaste <pal...@cc.helsinki.fi> wrote in message
> news:<bpvdqc$iv8$1...@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>... <snipped>
> <OT>
> At the end of this sick series of messages
You are over-reacting.
> I would only like to say
> that this discussion has shaken me to the core.
It shouldn't have done.
> There is a lot of hatred around.
Only of inane abbreviations like "u" for "you".
> that is all I can see.
Then try opening your eyes.
> I would not like to contribute
> to this any more.
Then don't. All you are contributing is incomprehension.
<rant snipped>
Randy Howard
@de.bosch.com says...
> Hello,
> Not at all ,I would say that this slang we have learnt from westerners
> while we communicate with them. They most of the times use "u" for
> "you","coz" for "because",and many more.
It seems that you are communicating with the wrong westerners.
> I think this makes communication rather informal and it also is stylish..:-)
Far, far from stylish.
> Of course nowadays it has become a trend to use these slangs.
Sadly, you may be correct, at least with the "youth", which undoubtedly
says nothing positive about our future.
>
> Do you agree with it?
Definitely not.
--
Randy Howard _o
2reply remove FOOBAR \<,
______________________()/ ()______________________________________________
SCO Spam-magnet: postm...@sco.com
Mark Haigh
> Joona I Palaste <pal...@cc.helsinki.fi> wrote in message news:<bpvdqc$iv8$1...@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>...
<snip>
> that this discussion has shaken me to the core. There is a lot of
> hatred around. that is all I can see. I would not like to contribute
> to this any more.
Piss off then. You're going to have to grow a thicker skin if you are
going to last here on Usenet.
<snip>
> from our experiences in the real world ... from wars which have still
> left there scars from times much before my birth ... from the
> thousands of people dead and dying and living in pitiable conditions
> across the globe even as I type ... and why?... only due to an
> amplification of the traits seen here.
There's quite a difference between wars, people dying, etc, and an
offtopic Usenet thread. Get some perspective.
Except for Dan Pop, everybody occasionally posts the wrong thing to the
wrong group. Since Joona has been a regular poster here for several
years, most of the regulars will give him a mulligan this time, and save
the flames for the next occasion.
Certainly nobody is begging you to stay, particularly if you persist in
being overly sensitive about something that should not upset any normal
adult person.
Mark F. Haigh
mfh...@sbcglobal.net
J. J. Farrell
"pandapower" <panda...@SoftHome.net> wrote in message
news:3713912d.03112...@posting.google.com...
> > The one I wonder about is the frequent use of the word "doubt" to mean
> > "question". Is this something being taught in English classes in India?
> > It happens so frequently that I wonder.
>
> the bottom line is .. AMERICA rules ..
How do you derive this from the post you quote, or from any other
of the messages in this thread? I've only seen one message in this
thread proposing some mindless idea of one nation's superiority
to others, and that message wasn't promoting the USA. This was a
discussion of apparently deliberate decisions to use silly
abbreviations, and has moved to a discussion of different meanings
of the same words in various versions of English.
> we dont have to be grammatically correct to learn the C language, and
> as far as posting is concerned INDIA is not a English speaking country
> .. so excuse people like you excuse people from non-english speaking
> countries.And this is not a english(queen's) grammer teaching
> newsgroup.
Indeed. Many people here go to considerable trouble to help people
who appear to have difficulty with English. The issue is not people's
lack of English skills, it is people's deliberate use of silly
abbreviations which hinder communication.
> I dont understand the skepticism over indian programmers.Probably
> there is some deep rooted fear.The root of anger is always fear :).
What scepticism over Indian programmers? I've not seen any in this
thread. Could you provide some examples?
Jirka Klaue
...
> What scepticism over Indian programmers? I've not seen any in this
> thread. Could you provide some examples?
Huh? How did this thread start?
JP> Why is it that *every single* Indian C programmer
JP> I have seen on this newsgroup writes "u" for "you"?
JP> Do they have a law in India forcing schools to
JP> teach mangled English or something?
Does this count as scepticism?
Jirka
Grumble
> I've been wondering about this for too long. Why is it that *every
> single* Indian C programmer I have seen on this newsgroup writes "u"
> for "you"? Many manage otherwise perfectly grammatical English but
> schools to teach mangled English or something?
Joona,
A masterful troll. It should be archived for posterity! ;-)
Chris Dollin
> On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 15:20:33 +0000, in comp.lang.c , Chris Dollin
> <ke...@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
>
>>Stylish, like yoghurt in the engine oil, doesn't have to mean "good".
>
> You may have to explain that reference...
Erm ... I made no special reference, but I think my quest for neat
(stylish?) metaphor got derailed.
"Stylish" doesn't have to mean "good", just as yoghurt in the engine
oil doesn't have to be good - and when noticable, may be bad.
--
Chris "opaque hedgehog" Dollin
C FAQs at: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/by-newsgroup/comp/comp.lang.c.html
C welcome: http://www.angelfire.com/ms3/bchambless0/welcome_to_clc.html
Slartibartfast
> single* Indian C programmer I have seen on this newsgroup writes "u"
> for "you"? Many manage otherwise perfectly grammatical English but
> that one mistake sticks out. Do they have a law in India forcing
> schools to teach mangled English or something?
And in what way is this any more offensive than the abbreviations that
you use all the time?
Do they have a law in Finland forcing you to make sweeping
generalisations and behave like a bigoted jerk, or something?
J. J. Farrell
"Jirka Klaue" <jkl...@ee.tu-berlin.de> wrote in message
news:bq1rkh$4td$1...@mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE...
In reference to pandapower saying
> I dont understand the skepticism over indian programmers.Probably
> there is some deep rooted fear.The root of anger is always fear :).
Hmmm ... depends what pandapower meant by the term. I took
it to mean some question being raised over Indian programmers'
competence as programmers, and I've not seen that. If he
was referring to Joona's original message, then Joona clearly
gives his reasons for it in the message itself - he referred
to Indians in particular because he perceived that all messages
he'd seen from Indians showed the issue.
I think Joona was wrong, but not greatly so. I've noticed a
substantial increase in this usage recently, and I've noticed
that a lot of posters who appear to be Indian are using it.
It's certainly not all Indians, nor is it exclusively Indians.
I'd be interested to know why it appears to have become a
fairly common usage among Indian programmers. It wouldn't be
surprising if people found Joona's suggested reason to be
offensive, though it was clearly meant as joke.
Slartibartfast
> Naren <narendra...@de.bosch.com> spoke thus:
>
> > Of course nowadays it has become a trend to use these slangs.
>
> place for slangy shorthand, at least not if you want to sound
> intelligent and be taken seriously (IMHO).
IMHO??? Methinks somebody has just discovered either irony or hypocrisy.
HAND.
Thomas Stegen
[snip]
> and it is perfectly sensible to ask him to drop the
> 133tn3s5 and write intelligibly.
^^^^^^^^
huh?
(But I do get your point nevertheless ;)
--
Thomas suddenly gets it.
Thomas Stegen
[snip]
> "doubt v.t. 1) to be uncertain about; question; feel
> distrust of. ..."
That is fair enough. It is the use of "I have a doubt" to
mean "I have a question" which is wrong though. And
"to question" and "a question" are different things.
--
Thomas.
Thomas Stegen
It counts as idiocy. Wholly unappropriate and not needed.
Since you asked...
--
Thomas.
Thomas Stegen
> I've been wondering about this for too long. Why is it that *every
> single* Indian C programmer I have seen on this newsgroup writes "u"
> for "you"? Many manage otherwise perfectly grammatical English but
> that one mistake sticks out. Do they have a law in India forcing
> schools to teach mangled English or something?
>
A bit late, But please do not feed the trolls.
I made a promise to myself never again to make posts such as this one.
But when this comes from a regular...
--
Thomas.
Nils Petter Vaskinn
>> 133tn3s5
> huh?
leetness
d00d5 (dudes) like to think they are very 1337 (elite) you see, and one
sign of 13Łtn355 (leetness) is to replace every possible character with
one that looks a little like the one you mean (as you can see it doen't
exactly make things easy to read). When we ridicule them (dood5) we like
to use their style of writing.
--
NPV
"the large print giveth, and the small print taketh away"
Tom Waits - Step right up
R. Rajesh Jeba Anbiah
> single* Indian C programmer I have seen on this newsgroup writes "u"
> for "you"?
"every single" is overstatement; may be you meant "most".
>Many manage otherwise perfectly grammatical English but
> that one mistake sticks out.
When I was learning English (that was before I've seen Computers and
SMS), I'd thought why people unnecessarily use "yo" in "you" when they
just pronounce it as "u". In my native language (Tamil), we write what
we speak/pronounce; we pronounce what we write. It is to say in Tamil,
we don't have any silent words (as in psychology or as in you).
Here are my reasons:
1. Browsing is too costly in India; many people don't know typing.
And so, they prefer to use "u" instead of long "you".
2. People think, "u" is stylish to use in web.
3. People don't know the difference between NG and chat room.
4. There is no such netiquettes. People may think, if ciao
(Italian) is acceptable in NG, then "u" must also be acceptable.
5. Few people may think why such hypocrisy---they accept dude speak
in chat rooms and IRC, but why not in NG.
>Do they have a law in India forcing
> schools to teach mangled English or something?
LOL! <kidding>BTW, Is there any law in Finland to force Joona to
post irrational statements?</kidding>
---
"Believe it or not, patriotism is one of the worst dividing forces"
http://guideme.itgo.com/atozofc/ - "A to Z of C" Project
Email: rrjanbiah-at-Y!com
Floyd Davidson
Where I grew up the phrase "I have my doubts about ..." was
pretty common.
I have no doubt there are people who doubt that it is proper
English... but have my doubts about their vocabulary.
--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) fl...@barrow.com
R. Rajesh Jeba Anbiah
> "pandapower" <panda...@SoftHome.net> wrote in message
> news:3713912d.03112...@posting.google.com...
> As for myself, I'd be very pleased to see all 'national' borders
> completely disappear. Just five or six billion *individuals*
> all respecting one another's individual rights, associating when
> they desire, or not, when they don't.
I strongly vouch your statement. My knowledge about America is quite
limited to CNN and few chat guys. Those chat guys have the opinions
about mine (and you) regarding the nationalism, but it is not what
projected to the outside world about Americans especially through
media like CNN. This is also same for India---'coz most of the
politicians and media projects Pakistan as the enemy.
Christopher Benson-Manica
> IMHO??? Methinks somebody has just discovered either irony or hypocrisy.
Both, probably ;) Neither was lost on me as I made the previous
post...
--
Christopher Benson-Manica | I *should* know what I'm talking about - if I
ataru(at)cyberspace.org | don't, I need to know. Flames welcome.
John L
"Nils Petter Vaskinn" <n...@spam.for.me.invalid> wrote in message news:pan.2003.11.26....@spam.for.me.invalid...
> On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 10:44:43 +0000, Thomas Stegen wrote:
>
>
> >> 133tn3s5
> > huh?
>
> leetness
>
> d00d5 (dudes) like to think they are very 1337 (elite) you see, and one
> sign of 13Łtn355 (leetness) is to replace every possible character with
> one that looks a little like the one you mean (as you can see it doen't
> exactly make things easy to read). When we ridicule them (dood5) we like
> to use their style of writing.
>
This is not what is happening in India (and some other Asian countries);
rather, it is a form of speed typing which motivates these abbreviations.
But because the one form looks much like the other, it is also condemned.
Other motivations for similar abominations have given Americans "thru" and
our children "Toys R Us".
It is not a sign Indian programmers are stupid, and there ought to
be more sensitive ways of objecting to the style, just as some can
redirect posters to, say, news:comp.unix.programmer without questioning
their sanity.
John.
Chris Dollin
> Thomas Stegen <tst...@cis.strath.ac.uk> wrote:
>>Floyd Davidson wrote:
>>[snip]
>>
>>> "doubt v.t. 1) to be uncertain about; question; feel
>>> distrust of. ..."
>>
>>That is fair enough. It is the use of "I have a doubt" to
>>mean "I have a question" which is wrong though. And
>>"to question" and "a question" are different things.
>
> Where I grew up the phrase "I have my doubts about ..." was
> pretty common.
I have my doubts about whether all this is on topic. In fact,
I doubt that it is (on topic). However, I don't have *a doubt*
about it.
> I have no doubt there are people who doubt that it is proper
> English... but have my doubts about their vocabulary.
But do you have *questions* about their vocabulary - and are the
doubts and the questions the same thing?
--
Chris "electric hedgehog" Dollin
Irrwahn Grausewitz
> Thomas Stegen <tst...@cis.strath.ac.uk> wrote:
> >Floyd Davidson wrote:
> >[snip]
> >
> >> "doubt v.t. 1) to be uncertain about; question; feel
> >> distrust of. ..."
> >
> >That is fair enough. It is the use of "I have a doubt" to
> >mean "I have a question" which is wrong though. And
> >"to question" and "a question" are different things.
>
> Where I grew up the phrase "I have my doubts about ..." was
> pretty common.
>
> I have no doubt there are people who doubt that it is proper
> English... but have my doubts about their vocabulary.
But "having a doubt about" isn't synonymous to "having a question
about", is it? It's more like "feeling uncertain about", like in
[literally quoted from a dictionary]:
When in doubt about the meaning of a word, consult a dictionary.
or "question the truth of", like in:
I have a doubt about the standard conformance of 'void main(...)'.
However, I doubt that this thread is on-topic. No doubt that
some/most people will agree with me on that. Doubtlessly that's
the reason for the "[OT]" attribute in the subject line.
And what was my C doubt? =:-0
Regards
--
Irrwahn
(irrw...@freenet.de)
Dan Pop
>anupam_m...@persistent.co.in (Anupam) wrote in message news:<aa67fba3.03112...@posting.google.com>...
>> Joona I Palaste <pal...@cc.helsinki.fi> wrote in message news:<bpvdqc$iv8$1...@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>...
>> > I've been wondering about this for too long. Why is it that *every
>> > single* Indian C programmer I have seen on this newsgroup writes "u"
>> > for "you"? Many manage otherwise perfectly grammatical English but
>> > that one mistake sticks out. Do they have a law in India forcing
>> > schools to teach mangled English or something?
><snipped most of previous post>
><OT>
> Also please have the decency to mention off-topic when it is so. And
The whole thread is labeled as off-topic, in the subject line, so why the
hell would anyone expect topical contents inside?
> PS. At least the OP mentioned OT in his header(headers are not
And the [OT] tag is present in the subject line of *all* the posts in
the thread. So, what's your point, if any?
>visible in all mail clients ,still...).
If you don't see the subject line, how do you decide what to read and
what to ignore?
>Others seem to have lost all track of their self-made conventions.
We're not talking here about any self-made conventions.
Dan
--
Dan Pop
DESY Zeuthen, RZ group
Email: Dan...@ifh.de
Dan Pop
>Dan...@cern.ch (Dan Pop) wrote:
>>In <3FC39555...@boeing.com.invalid> Default User <first...@boeing.com.invalid> writes:
>>
>>>The one I wonder about is the frequent use of the word "doubt" to mean
>>>"question". Is this something being taught in English classes in India?
>>>It happens so frequently that I wonder.
>>
>>My theory is that this is a mistake induced by the native language of
>>the poster, where the same word could be used for both.
>
>I doubt the extent of your English vocabulary.
It's fairly narrow, but this is not the point.
>A quick check in any dictionary should show that "doubt", used
>as a transitive verb, means "question", and indeed "question"
>will be listed as a synonym and/or as either part of the
>definition or in the usage of the word.
>
>Apparently this is less common today than it was historically,
>because of the dictionaries that I did look at, newer ones use
>it vaguely,
>
> "... to consider questionable ..."
>
>while older dictionaries are more explicit,
>
> "doubt v.t. 1) to be uncertain about; question; feel
> distrust of. ..."
>
>This last from a 1968 edition.
An entirely moot point, since we're talking about "question" as a NOUN,
not as a verb. I'm sure you can tell the difference, if you engage your
brain...
Joona was refering to people writing "I have a doubt about <whatever
C feature>", when they clearly mean "I have a question about...".
Kevin Bracey
Dan...@cern.ch (Dan Pop) wrote:
> In <UqMwb.30098$oI1....@newssvr32.news.prodigy.com> Thomas Matthews <Thomas_Matthews...@sbcglobal.net> writes:
>
> >I was taught that the past tense of "learn" is "learned" not "learnt".
> >Is "learnt" from the Queen's / King's english or from the lazy tongues
> >of some American suburbs?
>
> According to one of the most popular Web dictionaries, the former:
>
> Main Entry: learnt
> Pronunciation: 'l&rnt
> chiefly British past and past participle of LEARN
FWIW, I'm British, and I'd say "I learnt", and "I have learned". I think
"learnt" as the past tense is certainly the dominant form here.
Likewise dreamt, spelt and others.
--
Kevin Bracey, Principal Software Engineer
Tematic Ltd Tel: +44 (0) 1223 503464
182-190 Newmarket Road Fax: +44 (0) 1223 503458
Cambridge, CB5 8HE, United Kingdom WWW: http://www.tematic.com/
Anupam
> Anupam wrote:
>
> > Joona I Palaste <pal...@cc.helsinki.fi> wrote in message
> > news:<bpvdqc$iv8$1...@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>... <snipped>
> > <OT>
> > At the end of this sick series of messages
>
> You are over-reacting.
Is that so? Well how should a person react when he gets insulted on
his nationality? I would love to hear your invaluable suggestions.
>
> > I would only like to say
> > that this discussion has shaken me to the core.
>
> It shouldn't have done.
>
> > There is a lot of hatred around.
>
> Only of inane abbreviations like "u" for "you".
That was not too obvious if you would care to look at the entire
series of postings. Nationality and race have been brought to the
centre of attention if you did not notice.
>
> > that is all I can see.
>
> Then try opening your eyes.
>
> > I would not like to contribute
> > to this any more.
>
> Then don't. All you are contributing is incomprehension.
>
Firstly I'd like to say that I know that you are a well-respected
member of the clc community so if you mean to say "don't" in the group
as a whole, then I'd willingly oblige. I like C, but I know it's of no
use if I have to be a member of the group while facing your animosity.
On the other hand if you meant it as pertaining only to this thread
the para below caters to that.
You are taking this out of context. All I said was that I did not
want to contribute to the "rant"s here. I can only say that you are
sadly mistaken when you say this is a rant. I never said that I would
not correct incorrect facts.
I think I have a right to say what I feel here as much as the next
person. Now, please do not say that this is off topic ... that would
describe this entire thread very well.
> <rant snipped>
Interesting that you should call this a rant.
A rant is defined in the Webster's as "pompous or pretentious talk or
writing".
What I had said was not for attracting attention in a cheap manner.
Try looking at it without blinders . Maybe you will find that the
message is relevant to many aspects of today's life.
At the end of it all, I would like to say that I reacted strongly
only because it pertained to a racial aspect. Had you caught me up on
an aspect of C I would have gladly accepted my mistake and gone on.
Anupam
> Anupam wrote:
> > Joona I Palaste <pal...@cc.helsinki.fi> wrote in message news:<bpvdqc$iv8$1...@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>...
> <snip>
> > At the end of this sick series of messages I would only like to say
> > that this discussion has shaken me to the core. There is a lot of
> > hatred around. that is all I can see. I would not like to contribute
> > to this any more.
>
> Piss off then. You're going to have to grow a thicker skin if you are
> going to last here on Usenet.
As a gentleman, Im not going to answer that one in the terms you
expect. You won't get the four letter words from me. All I can say is
that if enough of the seniors say so, fine... I will. It is more your
world... I acknowledge that I'm not old enough to this group and order
is very important.
And yes I will not grow a thick enough skin to ever allow my country
to be insulted. That should not be a problem in the Usenet I feel.
>
> <snip>
> > from our experiences in the real world ... from wars which have still
> > left there scars from times much before my birth ... from the
> > thousands of people dead and dying and living in pitiable conditions
> > across the globe even as I type ... and why?... only due to an
> > amplification of the traits seen here.
>
> There's quite a difference between wars, people dying, etc, and an
> offtopic Usenet thread. Get some perspective.
Ok maybe I got a bit carried away... but these are the roots from
where it starts.
>
> Except for Dan Pop, everybody occasionally posts the wrong thing to the
> wrong group. Since Joona has been a regular poster here for several
> years, most of the regulars will give him a mulligan this time, and save
> the flames for the next occasion.
I do not think Joona had too much of hatred in mind when the original
post was done.I would feel it was more a sudden rush of blood. I was
mostly referring to the follow ups.
>
> Certainly nobody is begging you to stay, particularly if you persist in
> being overly sensitive about something that should not upset any normal
> adult person.
>
"Piss off" and "not begging to stay". Do you not see an inherent
contradiction here?
>
> Mark F. Haigh
> mfh...@sbcglobal.net
Anuradha
I would love to really thank you for enriching us [Indians] on how not
to use monosyllables. I hope you also understand that this place is
not the right place for the flames to be posted.
We [Indians] opt English as second language. Not like westerners whose
mother tongue is English and still people are [ sizeable number ] who
does not have even communication skills. There is enough room for
North Europeans too.
Well, as far as I have learnt it is character that maketh [wo]man not
the language. Just ponder.... hope you are rational enough.
Hail !!! westerners for inventing monosyllables and also inducting it
in the dictionary. so, are they illiterates ???????
Well, I would really like not to raise the roof here at least where I
respect the group. Should you still insist we would create a group and
start the flame... Having said, I have enough points to pick you up.
It would be good enough if you apologize in this group [ which i hope
you would not ] and that would show whether the person is literate or
not....
Got my point......
Happy Thanks Giving......
Anu
Richard Bos
> We [Indians] opt English as second language. Not like westerners whose
> mother tongue is English
Excuse me. My mother tongue is not English, yet I have never even
_considered_ using dw33bsp33k. Not being a native Anglophone is not an
excuse for using spelling which is otherwise being used only by
juveniles.
_Especially_ not when you're as generally clueful as Indian programmers
otherwise aim to be.
Richard
Dan Pop
Nope. Informal text based communication using electronic means has
developed its own set of abbreviations, well and widely documented.
Any good Internet tutorial also contains a list with the most common ones.
They've been created to be used, and not only to be inventoried in a
zillion places on the Web...
OTOH, ad hoc invented abbreviations, and Joona is one of the major
offenders in this newsgroup, are even sillier than "u" and its kin.
Nils Petter Vaskinn
> "Nils Petter Vaskinn" <n...@spam.for.me.invalid> wrote in message
> news:pan.2003.11.26....@spam.for.me.invalid...
>> On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 10:44:43 +0000, Thomas Stegen wrote:
>>
>>
>> >> 133tn3s5
>> > huh?
>>
>> leetness
>>
>> d00d5 (dudes) like to think they are very 1337 (elite) you see, and one
>> sign of 13Łtn355 (leetness) is to replace every possible character
>> with one that looks a little like the one you mean (as you can see it
>> doen't exactly make things easy to read). When we ridicule them (dood5)
>> we like to use their style of writing.
>>
>>
> This is not what is happening in India (and some other Asian countries);
> rather, it is a form of speed typing which motivates these
> abbreviations.
But this is not a chat room, speed of typing doesn't matter. Clarity does.
> It is not a sign Indian programmers are stupid,
I don't think Joona intended to imply that they are, he wondered if there
was any explanation for this common mistake in otherwise correct english.
(then he unfortunately proceeded to make a poor joke)
As another poster explained atleast one indian language is written the way
it sounds so writing "u" instead og "you" is an easy mistake when you're
used to such a language. That's a resonable explanation to me, I know I
make mistakes in my english and that atleast some of them are because of
my native tounge.
But if a person (of any nationality) has it pointed out to him that he
should type full words (instead of chat style abbreviations) in order to
make his text more readable (especially to those that aren't as good at
english), and he then continues to knowingly mistype words then that
particular person is stupid (in my opinion).
> and there ought to be
> more sensitive ways of objecting to the style, just as some can redirect
> posters to, say, news:comp.unix.programmer without questioning their
> sanity.
I wasn't ridiculing people that makes unintentional spelling mistakes, I
was making fun of people that make intentional spelling mistakes in order
to look cool.
Rick
like the MTV-chatbox-cyber-crap-talk either, but I can read it so what the
heck. As long as the question or explanation is clear it doesn't matter does
it?
I only had some basic english on school (is english with a small or big 'E'
?) and I'm sure this counts for lot's of users in newsgroups. So be happy we
try to do it in uniform english. The fact that english is the most used
language in the world doesn't mean we all have to speak it perfectly.
Languages and accents are cool, I can talk my own native language in such a
way only my friends understand it and I'm proud of that. It really doesn't
mean I'm stupid, in fact, it's creativity! (at least if you come up with it
yourself instead of copying someone else). But of course, I'm not supposed
to do that on a newsgroup where the common language is normal english. But
why even bother about some "u" talk? Their are worser things on earth, it's
not worth a post.
Though I agree on a newsgroup you'll have to try to make it understandable,
at least read your post for a small spelling check before sending. And I do
agree the way we learn english is a little bit wrong. It's because of that
darn TV, it rapes classical languages with all kind of shit so learning the
correct form is hard. You can't blame the little kids for writing "I luv U 4
effa" and that kind of crap. They grow up with Nelly and Britney Spears
saying that rubbish. Joona, send them a e-mail and tell to stop that ;)
Greetings,
Rick
Dik T. Winter
> We [Indians] opt English as second language. Not like westerners whose
> mother tongue is English and still people are [ sizeable number ] who
> does not have even communication skills. There is enough room for
> North Europeans too.
The original poster was a North European who does not have English as his
mother tongue...
--
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj amsterdam, nederland, +31205924131
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland; http://www.cwi.nl/~dik/
Floyd Davidson
>In <873ccb5...@barrow.com> Floyd Davidson <fl...@barrow.com> writes:
>
>>Dan...@cern.ch (Dan Pop) wrote:
>>>In <3FC39555...@boeing.com.invalid> Default User <first...@boeing.com.invalid> writes:
>>>
>>>>The one I wonder about is the frequent use of the word "doubt" to mean
>>>>"question". Is this something being taught in English classes in India?
>>>>It happens so frequently that I wonder.
>>>
>>>My theory is that this is a mistake induced by the native language of
>>>the poster, where the same word could be used for both.
>>
>>I doubt the extent of your English vocabulary.
>
>It's fairly narrow, but this is not the point.
I have no doubt that you missed the point...
>>A quick check in any dictionary should show that "doubt", used
>>as a transitive verb, means "question", and indeed "question"
>>will be listed as a synonym and/or as either part of the
>>definition or in the usage of the word.
>>
>>Apparently this is less common today than it was historically,
>>because of the dictionaries that I did look at, newer ones use
>>it vaguely,
>>
>> "... to consider questionable ..."
>>
>>while older dictionaries are more explicit,
>>
>> "doubt v.t. 1) to be uncertain about; question; feel
>> distrust of. ..."
>>
>>This last from a 1968 edition.
>
>An entirely moot point, since we're talking about "question" as a NOUN,
>not as a verb. I'm sure you can tell the difference, if you engage your
>brain...
Engage that brain you tout so often Dan. Nothing restricted the
reference was to a noun. And indeed *that* is a moot point,
given the way the English language works.
It makes no difference whether he meant use as a noun, or not.
"Doubt" and "question" both mean an uncertainty, and that is
true when it is used as a verb or as a noun. The difference is
merely a matter of how skeptical the speaker is about the
validity of an answer. You could also use "problem", which
suggest even less bias about the expected answer.
The connotation of each is different, but that subtlety might
well be lost on anyone who speaks English as a second language.
Look up "doubtful", "questionable", and "problematical" in
a good dictionary. (Yes, I am aware that those are not nouns,
nor are they even verbs, transitive or otherwise.)
>Joona was refering to people writing "I have a doubt about <whatever
>C feature>", when they clearly mean "I have a question about...".
I have no doubt you did not know two words mean exactly the same
thing, in that context (or this one). And I do hope this helps
to answer your doubt.
Alan Balmer
(Slartibartfast) wrote:
In this context, "imho" is no more "slangy shorthand" than "mph" or
"kph" when writing about speed limits. It's even possible that in the
far distant future, no-caps, ellipsis-filled, d00dsp33k will become an
accepted norm on newsgroups. I find this highly unlikely, though,
since there's nothing to recommend it other than obfuscation and the
occasional saving of a couple of keystrokes.
--
Al Balmer
Balmer Consulting
removebalmerc...@att.net
Alan Balmer
(Anupam) wrote:
>Where
>would you think this guy would have achance to learn the Queen's
>English.
The same place he's attempting to use it, obviously. I can appreciate
your sad story, but my point remains - anyone with the resources to
contribute to this newsgroup has, by definition, the resources to
observe and learn from other posters to the newsgroup.
Alan Balmer
<j...@lammtarra.fslife.co.uk> wrote:
>This is not what is happening in India (and some other Asian countries);
>rather, it is a form of speed typing which motivates these abbreviations.
You're joking, of course? Most of the examples I see actually take
longer to type.
Dan Pop
>In message <bq0a1g$m6n$4...@sunnews.cern.ch>
> Dan...@cern.ch (Dan Pop) wrote:
>
>> In <UqMwb.30098$oI1....@newssvr32.news.prodigy.com> Thomas Matthews <Thomas_Matthews...@sbcglobal.net> writes:
>>
>> >I was taught that the past tense of "learn" is "learned" not "learnt".
>> >Is "learnt" from the Queen's / King's english or from the lazy tongues
>> >of some American suburbs?
>>
>> According to one of the most popular Web dictionaries, the former:
>>
>> Main Entry: learnt
>> Pronunciation: 'l&rnt
>> chiefly British past and past participle of LEARN
>
>FWIW, I'm British, and I'd say "I learnt", and "I have learned". I think
>"learnt" as the past tense is certainly the dominant form here.
>
>Likewise dreamt, spelt and others.
If English was less perverse, a verb would be either regular or irregular
but not both at the same time ;-)
John L
"Alan Balmer" <alba...@att.net> wrote in message news:lfi9svounqc33db8m...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 12:50:46 -0000, "John L"
> <j...@lammtarra.fslife.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >This is not what is happening in India (and some other Asian countries);
> >rather, it is a form of speed typing which motivates these abbreviations.
>
> You're joking, of course? Most of the examples I see actually take
> longer to type.
>
No, I'm saying there are separate phenomena being confused here,
or perhaps the same phenomenon (annoying abbreviations) with
distinct causes.
John.
Dan Pop
>As another poster explained atleast one indian language is written the way
>it sounds so writing "u" instead og "you" is an easy mistake when you're
>used to such a language.
If it were, they would be making it in plenty of other words, too.
My mother tongue also uses a phonetical writing, yet I'm never tempted
to write English words in a phonetical manner.
Dan Pop
>Does it really matters if someone uses "u" instead of you? C'mon, I don't
>like the MTV-chatbox-cyber-crap-talk either, but I can read it so what the
>heck. As long as the question or explanation is clear it doesn't matter does
>it?
But, then, if "u" is acceptable, why not "r", "4", "ur", "l8r", "b4",
"4mer" and so on...
Writing properly is a form of displaying your respect towards your
intended audience. Which is particularly important when asking for
help.
Dan Pop
It was the context that restricted it to a noun, as other people and
myself have already explained. This is what rendered your point moot.
You must be context blind to insist on your moot point ad nauseam.
Irrwahn Grausewitz
> Kevin Bracey <kevin....@tematic.com> writes:
<snip>
> >FWIW, I'm British, and I'd say "I learnt", and "I have learned". I think
> >"learnt" as the past tense is certainly the dominant form here.
> >
> >Likewise dreamt, spelt and others.
>
> If English was less perverse, a verb would be either regular or irregular
> but not both at the same time ;-)
One could call it a meta-irregular verb, then. <g,d&r>
--
Irrwahn
(irrw...@freenet.de)
Floyd Davidson
>>>An entirely moot point, since we're talking about "question" as a NOUN,
>>>not as a verb. I'm sure you can tell the difference, if you engage your
>>>brain...
>>
>>Engage that brain you tout so often Dan. Nothing restricted the
>>reference was to a noun. And indeed *that* is a moot point,
>>given the way the English language works.
>
>It was the context that restricted it to a noun, as other people and
>myself have already explained. This is what rendered your point moot.
>
>You must be context blind to insist on your moot point ad nauseam.
Interesting comment, given that I've demonstrated it in *three*
different contexts (including the one you've chosen to insist it
must be).
Engage that touted brain, Dan. If you have more doubts, I'll
be happy to continuing trying to answer them, but *you* have
to _think_.
Wolfgang Riedel
>
> Charles Richmond wrote:
>
> > Joona I Palaste wrote:
> >>
> >> I've been wondering about this for too long. Why is it that *every
> >> single* Indian C programmer I have seen on this newsgroup writes "u"
> >> for "you"? Many manage otherwise perfectly grammatical English but
> >>
> > Crap like that seems to be acceptable in "chat rooms".
>
> Not in the channels I use. People using such lame abbreviations are
> generally kicked (or even banned), unless there are extreme mitigating
> circumstances.
>
> --
> Richard Heathfield : bin...@eton.powernet.co.uk
> "Usenet is a strange place." - Dennis M Ritchie, 29 July 1999.
> C FAQ: http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html
> K&R answers, C books, etc: http://users.powernet.co.uk/eton
couldn't you unite those language and spelling threads in something like
[VMOT] little Indian seeks BigEndian
<g>?
Wolfgang
Alan Balmer
wrote:
>I can talk my own native language in such a
>way only my friends understand it and I'm proud of that.
Fine, but please don't do it here. This isn't a private communication
channel for you and your friends - that's part of the point we're
making here. The clearest communication comes when we use standardized
language in a standardized way, just as the most portable programs are
made with standardized languages in standardized ways. It doesn't mean
you can't use other language where appropriate, just as you can use
extensions to a programming language where appropriate. It does mean
that there's no point to inventing a function named p which does the
same thing as printf, unless you're deliberately writing obfuscated
code.
CBFalconer
>
... snip ...
>
> This is not what is happening in India (and some other Asian countries);
> rather, it is a form of speed typing which motivates these abbreviations.
> Other motivations for similar abominations have given Americans "thru"
> and our children "Toys R Us".
You are confusing two tendencies. The "Toys R Us" foolishness is
an advertising gimmick dreamed up by some joker in a gray flannel
suit. "thru" dates from roughly 1900, and was part of a movement
to regularize spelling. It was never really accepted outside the
US, and has largely died out. "tho" is a similar situation. It
may have been a reaction to "ghoti" :-)
--
Chuck F (cbfal...@yahoo.com) (cbfal...@worldnet.att.net)
Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems.
<http://cbfalconer.home.att.net> USE worldnet address!
CBFalconer
> > *every single* Indian C programmer I have seen on this newsgroup
> > writes "u" for "you"?
>
>
> > Many manage otherwise perfectly grammatical English but
> > that one mistake sticks out.
>
> and SMS), I'd thought why people unnecessarily use "yo" in "you"
> when they just pronounce it as "u". In my native language (Tamil),
> we write what we speak/pronounce; we pronounce what we write. It
> is to say in Tamil, we don't have any silent words (as in
> psychology or as in you).
>
> Here are my reasons:
>
> 1. Browsing is too costly in India; many people don't know
> typing. And so, they prefer to use "u" instead of long "you".
> 2. People think, "u" is stylish to use in web.
> 3. People don't know the difference between NG and chat room.
> 4. There is no such netiquettes. People may think, if ciao
> (Italian) is acceptable in NG, then "u" must also be acceptable.
> 5. Few people may think why such hypocrisy---they accept dude
> speak in chat rooms and IRC, but why not in NG.
>
...snip ...
>
> ---
> "Believe it or not, patriotism is one of the worst dividing forces"
> http://guideme.itgo.com/atozofc/ - "A to Z of C" Project
> Email: rrjanbiah-at-Y!com
Your sig marker is faulty. It should be precisely "-- ".
At last a sane explanation of the tendency, from someone who
presumably knows. Now the problem is to promulgate the realities
among the Indian users of newsgroups.
This is not the only annoying Indian tendency - another is the
proclivity to top-post and fail to snip. One would think that the
(reputed) relatively high cost of connect time there would
naturally curb this. Of course this fault is also highly evident
in other circles.
Anuradha
> In article <ca2bbf98.03112...@posting.google.com> anuu_...@yahoo.com (Anuradha) writes:
> > We [Indians] opt English as second language. Not like westerners whose
> > mother tongue is English and still people are [ sizeable number ] who
> > does not have even communication skills. There is enough room for
> > North Europeans too.
>
> The original poster was a North European who does not have English as his
> mother tongue...
Thanks, for highlighting !!!! Kindly re-read the sentence ;-) i
mentioned even westerners whose mother tongue is English are unable to
communicate in English precisely.
Also there is room for improvement even for North Europeans.....
It would be better to teach others rather than be preachy enough and
blow ones own trumpet....
Sweet flames ahead....
Anu