ADI vs ELK comparison
Dwayne
currently looking for a box to do this. I have an Ocelot and would prefer
to stay with this line of equipment.
thanks
"Dave Houston" <dhou...@fuse.net> wrote in message
news:38a3497a....@nntp.fuse.net...
> Below is a brief comparison of the Elk Magic Module line and the ADI ADNET
> line. Anybody interested in relative prices can see both lines at Future
> Standard. IMO, you spend more and get less with Elk.
>
<snip>
Dave Houston
line. Anybody interested in relative prices can see both lines at Future
Standard. IMO, you spend more and get less with Elk.
For example, FS sells the Ocelot kit (Ocelot, power supply, TW523, all
required cables) for $130. While I'm sure our hydrophobic hydrologist will
dispute this, it looks to me that you'd have to spend more than that for a
basic Elk setup where TW523, cables, RTC, the required RS-232 to RS-485
adapter, etc. all appear to be added costs.
Once programmed from a PC, both can run standalone. IMO, the ADI line can
also run rings around the Elk line. ;)
Anyone who claims that the PIC based Magic Module can send e-mail, connect
to the Internet, send pages, do text-to-speech, voice control, etc. without
relying on a PC, is stretching the truth by a lightyear or two. The PC and
the software running on it may be able to do all those things; the Elk Magic
Modules can do NONE of those things.
Disclaimer: I have no financial interest in ADI, Elk, or even in Commander X
Ocelot MM443
CPU: Z180 + PIC16C76-20I/SP PIC16C76-04
Program space: 12KB (1) 4KB
Bus type: half-duplex RS-485 half-duplex RS-485 with CSMA/CD (2)
RTC: yes added-cost option
RS-232: yes no
Max modules: 128 32
2-way X-10: TW523 TW523 (added cost)
2-way IR: 1024 codes no
I/O: none 4 relays, 4 digital or analog inputs
TCP/IP: (coming) ???
NOTES:
(1) can be expanded to 24K if it's ever necessary
(2) reduces max throughput by ~30%, collisions bog down bus & cause high
currents
Other ADNET Modules:
--------------------
SECU-16: 8 relays, 8 digital or analog inputs
SECU-16i: 16 digital or analog inputs
SECU-16IR: 16 switched IR output zones
RLY8-XA: 8 high current relays (can also be used as X-10 relays)
Modem: send pages or use for remote control of ADNET network
Speak-Easy: playback 32 recorded messages
Dallas 1-wire: (coming)
LCD: LCD-80 (coming) - 16-keys, temperature probe, light sensor
Video overlay: (coming) - NTSC/PAL
Serial I/O: Octal (coming) - 8 RS-232/RS-485/RS-422 ports
Bridge: RS-232 to RS-485 adapter
Multi-I/O: (coming) 30A relay, more...
?????: (rumored) security panel interface
Other Magic Modules:
--------------------
MK410: preprogrammed X10 module
MK420: preprogrammed iButton module
MA100: iButton reader/interface (needs an MM443 all its own)
MA210: Weigand prox card reader
MM220: 2 relays, 2 digital/analog inputs
MC100: Real Time Clock (REQUIRED for standalone scheduling)*
MB485: RS-232 to RS-485 adapter (REQUIRED)
MV120: playback 32 recorded messages
MT100: temperature probe
ML8: Caddx security panel interface
ML1: (coming) data logger, printer, modem interface
NOTE: There are other Elk modules but they seem to be variations on or
combinations of the above. I got this information from the Elk manual which
I downloaded from their web page today. I have heard rumors of additions to
the Elk line that may be quite interesting depending on whether they will be
available separately or only with the Elk system.
* RTC is not needed if the Caddx interface is used.
---
Dave Houston
http://Commander-X.com
Robert L Bass
my respect as much as that of everyone else here. But he's not the *only*
store. No offense friend, OK?
Regards,
Robert L Bass
==========================>
Bass Home Electronics
The Online DIY Alarm Store
http://www.Bass-Home.com
80 Bentwood Road
West Hartford, CT 06107
860-561-9542 voice
860-561-5210 fax
alar...@home.com
==========================>
Dave Houston <dhou...@fuse.net> wrote in message
news:38a3497a....@nntp.fuse.net...
: Below is a brief comparison of the Elk Magic Module line and the ADI ADNET
:
Dave Houston
I'd agree that, if you have the Ocelot, it makes sense to wait for one that
works with the ADNET RS-485 port. I have no idea what the time frame is on
the various modules.
"Dwayne" <dg5...@swbell.net> wrote:
>Where did you find the info. on the 'Video Overlay' for the Ocelot? I am
>currently looking for a box to do this. I have an Ocelot and would prefer
>to stay with this line of equipment.
>
>thanks
>
>
>"Dave Houston" <dhou...@fuse.net> wrote in message
>news:38a3497a....@nntp.fuse.net...
>> Below is a brief comparison of the Elk Magic Module line and the ADI ADNET
>> line. Anybody interested in relative prices can see both lines at Future
>> Standard. IMO, you spend more and get less with Elk.
>>
><snip>
Dave Houston
navigate so I look there first.
"Robert L Bass" <alar...@home.com> wrote:
>You can also get prices at www.bass-home.com. Brian does a great job and he has
>my respect as much as that of everyone else here. But he's not the *only*
>store. No offense friend, OK?
>
>Regards,
>Robert L Bass
---
Dave Houston
http://Commander-X.com
Robert L Bass
I've (finally) added a product name search to my site. It took a while to get
it the way I wanted it. You type a few characters and click. After a few
seconds you get a tree similar to the Win Explorer. The lowest branches are
product links.
Dave Houston <dhou...@fuse.net> wrote in message
news:38a4773a....@nntp.fuse.net...
:
Brian Karas
>Below is a brief comparison of the Elk Magic Module line and the ADI ADNET
>line. Anybody interested in relative prices can see both lines at Future
>Standard. IMO, you spend more and get less with Elk.
FWIW, expect the Magic Module prices to drop next week at our store.
I don't think that the Magic Module starter kit will rival the Ocelot
in price, but I thought it was worth mentioning.
--
Check out the CPU-XA mailing list and tech-tips at FutureStandard.com
Home Automation and DataComm FAQ's, equipment, and more available at: http://www.FutureStandard.com
Win a Tivo at Hometoys.com : http://www.hometoys.com/contest/contest.htm
H...@xxxhydrologistxxx.com
wrote in message <38a3497a....@nntp.fuse.net>:
>Below is a brief comparison of the Elk Magic Module line and the ADI
>ADNET line. Anybody interested in relative prices can see both lines
>at Future Standard.
Comparing hardware in isolation from the software that actually makes
the hardware do something harkens back to Olden Times. Way back when
folks used to make PC-Mac hardware comparisons that were irrelevant if
you wanted to use Adobe programs -- the best available for the purpose
-- because they wouldn't _run_ on a PC. We wouldn't be doing that here
again, now that we've been 'round and 'round the block on this ....
or would we?
As I now understand it, folks who want a distributed system in which
individual devices can run standalone with the computer off will find
that HomeSeer and Commander-X won't do it this with the ADI Ocelot
($120) but Savoy's "free" Elk-only CyberHouse will with the Elk MM443S
($135) and MM220S ($32) modules.
>IMO, you spend more and get less with Elk. For example, FS sells the
>Ocelot kit (Ocelot, power supply, TW523, all required cables) for
>$130. While I'm sure our hydrophobic hydrologist will dispute this,
>it looks to me that you'd have to spend more than that for a basic
>Elk setup where TW523, cables, RTC, the required RS-232 to RS-485
>adapter, etc. all appear to be added costs.
FWIW, like most other hydrologists, I'm more hydrophilic than
hydrophobic ;-).
And a ELK-MK400S kit with everything that Dave lists except the TW-523
and the specious "etc" (runs jist fine without an "etc." I've found )
is $189 post-paid from www.basshome.com. What Dave omits is that his
basic setup for the Ocelot has NO digital inputs, NO analog inputs, NO
relays (much less 15 amp ones), NO digital output -- in fact, the
basic ADI can only do X-10 and IR until you add more modules (= more
$).
This is not a propitious beginning if, like me, you are trying to use
hard-wiring instead of X-10 wherever practical and see IR as primarily
for entertainment and so a low priority compared to dependable
security, HVAC and lighting.
To get ADI's modules for ANY analog I/O and ANY heavy duty relays for
the Ocelot (which are built right on the Elk MM443S and MM220S
boards)you have to spend more money ( ~$170 or so for a SECU-16
(street $70) + RLY8-XA $159 list -- couldn't find street price). So,
as Dave predicted, it seems to me that the basic Ocelot hardware is in
fact roughly $80 bucks more expensive after you add in the needed
extra modules _it_ needs. Of course then you have more total I/O ports
and IR which the Elk doesn't have. But you can't get just a few I/O;
you have buy more than you need if you only need a few. With an Elk,
you can buy them four at a time MM220s and put them anywhere your
RS-485 will reach (or won't reach if you let them run completely
unsupervised)
And most folks will probably want to buy Commander-X or HomeSeer for
an additional $40 or so bringing the actual higher cost of the Ocelot
to roughly $120 more than the Savoy/Elk -- worth it if it does what
you want.
But then one amy also have to add the price of a full-time computer
and monitor. Even the next-to-free ones seem to end up costing more
than you think after you buy the extra dodad here and there.
Then there's the matter of the $30/year or so that running an old
electron hog computer costs. So if you guesstimate that a Windows
95/98 box and monitor depreciate $200/year we are at $350 more for the
full-time Ocelot the first year than with Elk/Savoy. Adjust the
'rithmetic however you like, but that's how it comes out for me.
It is simple fact that the Elk has these features in a single,
self-contained module (w/o IR) and ADI doesn't. If what you want is
IR, and you don't want to buy more boxes and gizmos (I happen to use
Slink-e from www.nirvis.com which "can ... run rings around the [ADI]
line" for IR, and can also provide X-10 through a CM11a and digital
I/O to boot) don't get the ELK modules.
Note too, that for $32 postage-paid from www.basshome.com you can get
an MM220S with 2 analog/digital inputs, 2 15-amp relays, four timers,
four counters, 16/32 flags and then use it with the "free" Elk-only
version of CyberHouse downloaded from www.savoyautomation.com/elk or
http://www.savoyautomation.com/Products/AS200E%20Series/hamlet_intro.html
I'm using one $32 MM220S for standalone night/day and distributed
control of vertical blinds (both the travel and rotate motors) and
another to make a conventional thermostat into a RS-485 set-back
thermostat. ABIK, I can't do _anything_ for $32 with ADI. And if the
computer goes down, I can still open the drapes which cannot be done
without dismantling the beaded chains from the motors' pulleys if the
motor can not be convinced to turn.
More later ... maybe
HTH ... Marc
Marc_F_Hult
H...@xxhydrologistxxx.com
Dave Houston
> > As I now understand it, folks who want a distributed system in which
> > individual devices can run standalone with the computer off will
> > find that HomeSeer and Commander-X won't do it this with the ADI
> > Ocelot ($120) but Savoy's "free" Elk-only CyberHouse will with the
> > Elk MM443S ($135) and MM220S ($32) modules.
What part of "STANDALONE" is it that escapes your feeble powers of
comprehension? The CPU-XA, the Ocelot, and the Leopard can all be programmed
with the FREE C-Max software which Applied Digital ships with each and which
can also be downloaded from the Applied Digital web page. Once a program has
been loaded, all can run standalone without need of a PC.
I'm having real difficulty understanding what it is about the ADI products
that gets you foaming at the mouth and bleeding from the ears. Either you do
not understand how the ADI line works or you are deliberately spreading
disinformation. Given that you don't seem to understand how the ELK system
works either, I suppose it's just that you're in water that's over your
head.
The Elk modules are interdependent. If the module with the RTC goes down,
all modules that are time dependent are up the proverbial creek. If the
module that does X-10 goes down, all modules that react to X-10 events are
also up that creek.
AFAIK, HomeSeer does not program any of the ADI controls. Commander X does
not program any of these. Both can control these devices directly and do
offer other features that some people find useful.
> >
> > And a ELK-MK400S kit with everything that Dave lists except the
> > TW-523 and the specious "etc" (runs jist fine without an "etc." I've
> > found ) is $189 post-paid from www.basshome.com. What Dave omits is
> > that his basic setup for the Ocelot has NO digital inputs, NO analog
> > inputs, NO relays (much less 15 amp ones), NO digital output -- in
> > fact, the basic ADI can only do X-10 and IR until you add more
> > modules (= more $).
$130 for Ocelot (with TW523, cables & C-Max) + $70 for SECU16I = $200 for
X-10, IR, 32 timers, 8 low current relays and 8 inputs that can be used as
supervised inputs, 4-20 mA inputs, or 0-5v analog inputs. If you need high
current relays it's a simple matter to control from 1-8 using the the low
current relays as DIGITAL OUTPUTS to control the high current relays.
> > This is not a propitious beginning if, like me, you are trying to
> > use hard-wiring instead of X-10 wherever practical and see IR as
> > primarily for entertainment and so a low priority compared to
> > dependable security, HVAC and lighting.
Duh! There seem to be numerous security systems available like HAI, Napco,
and others that can be used independently of or in conjunction with almost
any HA system.
> > To get ADI's modules for ANY analog I/O and ANY heavy duty relays
> > for the Ocelot (which are built right on the Elk MM443S and MM220S
> > boards)you have to spend more money ( ~$170 or so for a SECU-16
> > (street $70) + RLY8-XA $159 list -- couldn't find street price). So,
> > as Dave predicted, it seems to me that the basic Ocelot hardware is
> > in fact roughly $80 bucks more expensive after you add in the needed
> > extra modules _it_ needs. Of course then you have more total I/O
> > ports and IR which the Elk doesn't have. But you can't get just a
> > few I/O; you have buy more than you need if you only need a few.
> > With an Elk, you can buy them four at a time MM220s and put them
> > anywhere your RS-485 will reach (or won't reach if you let them run
> > completely unsupervised)
So how will the MM220s know when to do their thing with no network to tell
them the time or to relay X-10 events, etc.? Why not use less expensive
mechanical timers?
> > And most folks will probably want to buy Commander-X or HomeSeer
> > for an additional $40 or so bringing the actual higher cost of the
> > Ocelot to roughly $120 more than the Savoy/Elk -- worth it if it
> > does what you want.
I think you'll find far more people running standalone using only C-Max to
program the ADI controls.
> > But then one amy also have to add the price of a full-time computer
> > and monitor. Even the next-to-free ones seem to end up costing more
> > than you think after you buy the extra dodad here and there.
See above.
> > Then there's the matter of the $30/year or so that running an old
> > electron hog computer costs. So if you guesstimate that a Windows
> > 95/98 box and monitor depreciate $200/year we are at $350 more for
> > the full-time Ocelot the first year than with Elk/Savoy. Adjust the
> > 'rithmetic however you like, but that's how it comes out for me.
Again, see above.
> > It is simple fact that the Elk has these features in a single,
> > self-contained module (w/o IR) and ADI doesn't. If what you want is
> > IR, and you don't want to buy more boxes and gizmos (I happen to use
> > Slink-e from www.nirvis.com which "can ... run rings around the
> > [ADI] line" for IR, and can also provide X-10 through a CM11a and
> > digital I/O to boot) don't get the ELK modules.
I've had a Slink-e for about two years. I also have a CPU-XA and an Ocelot.
Based on hands-on experience with all of them, I'd say they have comparable
capabilities. The Slink-e is much more of a DIY project than the ADI
products.
Does your Slink-e require a full-time PC? Mine does.
Was your Slink-e free? Mine cost $185.
Does your Slink-e require programming skills? Mine does.
Is your Slink-e heavily oriented towards Sony products? Mine is.
Can your Slink-e control some of the new Sony products that have a port
labeled "S-Link"? Mine cannot.
Looks to me like you've got far more money invested and still need a PC
running full-time.
Looks like you argue against a PC when it suits your purposes and argue for
it when it suits your purposes.
> > Note too, that for $32 postage-paid from www.basshome.com you can
> > get an MM220S with 2 analog/digital inputs, 2 15-amp relays, four
> > timers, four counters, 16/32 flags and then use it with the "free"
> > Elk-only version of CyberHouse downloaded from
> > www.savoyautomation.com/elk or
> > http://www.savoyautomation.com/Products/AS200E%20Series/hamlet_intro
> > .html
> >
> > I'm using one $32 MM220S for standalone night/day and distributed
> > control of vertical blinds (both the travel and rotate motors) and
> > another to make a conventional thermostat into a RS-485 set-back
> > thermostat. ABIK, I can't do _anything_ for $32 with ADI. And if the
> > computer goes down, I can still open the drapes which cannot be done
> > without dismantling the beaded chains from the motors' pulleys if
> > the motor can not be convinced to turn.
Gee, isn't $32 + $32 still $64? No, wait - you say "distributed" so you
probably control more than one window. How many $32s are we talking about?
How are you determining when it's day and when it's night? If you're using
timers, that's not day/night. If you're using a RTC, that's not included in
the $32. If you're using some light sensing device, that's also not in the
$32. I think I could do this with a $10 mechanical timer and no PC.
> > More later ... maybe
> >
> > HTH ... Marc
> >
> > Marc_F_Hult
> > H...@xxhydrologistxxx.com
> >
>
---
Dave Houston
http://Commander-X.com
H...@xxxhydrologistxxx.com
wrote in message <38a6ad22...@nntp.fuse.net>:
[I (Marc] had written:]
>
>> > As I now understand it, folks who want a distributed system in
>> > which individual devices can run standalone with the computer
>> > off will find that HomeSeer and Commander-X won't do it this with
>> > the ADI Ocelot ($120) but Savoy's "free" Elk-only CyberHouse
>> > will with the Elk MM443S ($135) and MM220S ($32) modules.
[Dave wrote:]
>What part of "STANDALONE" is it that escapes your feeble powers of
>comprehension? The CPU-XA, the Ocelot, and the Leopard can all be
>programmed with the FREE C-Max software which Applied Digital ships
>with each and which can also be downloaded from the Applied Digital
>web page. Once a program has been loaded, all can run standalone
without need of a PC.
[snip to the end of the message]
Dave has once again forgotten his manners. It also seem that he has
forgotten what he wrote in the Commander-X manual:
Commander X≥ requires that the PC be running all the time
- it does not download schedules to any of the supported
interfaces.
Dave: Please read carefully here. When you turn off the computer
having spent time and money programming using Commander-X (and ABIK
HomeSeer) your efforts are not translated into any actions by the home
automation system and all your efforts and expense are for naught.
Turn the PC off, and Ocelot is still as dumb as when it left the
factory.
But when you program an Elk module with CyberHouse, within limits, THE
SELF-SAME INSTRUCTIONS CAN BE EXECUTED BY THE ELK MODULE WHETHER THE
PC IS TURNED ON OR NOT. (pardon the shouting but Dave seems a bit deaf
- and I do literally know how that is ;-)
The ELK modules can run the SAME instructions put together with the
SAME high level program (CyberHouse) STANDALONE or with the PC on and
doing the computing and instructing. This is a important difference
(unless you enjoy doing everything twice).
Think about that. Then we'll see if after I read the rest of what you
wrote there's much left worth commenting about (civilly of course...)
HTH ... Marc
Marc_F_Hult
H...@xxxhydrologistxxx.com
Robert L Bass
<H...@xxxhydrologistxxx.com> wrote in message
news:38a7f999...@news.supernews.com...
:
Dave Houston
>On Sun, 13 Feb 2000 14:24:37 GMT, dhou...@fuse.net (Dave Houston)
>wrote in message <38a6ad22...@nntp.fuse.net>:
>
>Dave has once again forgotten his manners. It also seem that he has
>forgotten what he wrote in the Commander-X manual:
>
> Commander Xâ„¢ requires that the PC be running all the time
> - it does not download schedules to any of the supported
> interfaces.
Other than you, who the hell ever said anything different?
How does it follow that because Commander X does not download to the
interfaces that they are unable to run standalone when programmed with the
software that is supplied with them? Commander X does not program the CM11A
EEPROM but that doesn't mean that you can't program it with ActiveHome.
Commander X does not program the Elk modules but that doesn't stop you from
running them standalone after programming them with SIMPLE or with the Savoy
software.
>Dave: Please read carefully here. When you turn off the computer
>having spent time and money programming using Commander-X (and ABIK
>HomeSeer) your efforts are not translated into any actions by the home
>automation system and all your efforts and expense are for naught.
>Turn the PC off, and Ocelot is still as dumb as when it left the
>factory.
*#$^&!: Please read carefully here. The C-Max software that ADI supplies has
nothing to do with Commander X. They do both begin with "C" and end with "X"
(or "x") but that's the only similarity. The C-Max software written and
supplied by Applied Digital does download to the CPU-XA, Ocelot, and
Leopard.
>But when you program an Elk module with CyberHouse, within limits, THE
>SELF-SAME INSTRUCTIONS CAN BE EXECUTED BY THE ELK MODULE WHETHER THE
>PC IS TURNED ON OR NOT. (pardon the shouting but Dave seems a bit deaf
>- and I do literally know how that is ;-)
And when you program a CPU-XA, Ocelot, or Leopard with C-Max, THE
SELF-SAME INSTRUCTIONS CAN BE EXECUTED BY THE CPU-XA, OCELOT, OR LEOPARD
WHETHER THE PC IS TURNED ON OR NOT.
>The ELK modules can run the SAME instructions put together with the
>SAME high level program (CyberHouse) STANDALONE or with the PC on and
>doing the computing and instructing. This is a important difference
>(unless you enjoy doing everything twice).
Who has to do everything twice? You program the interface with C-Max ONCE!
You program the interface with Commander X NEVER!
>Think about that. Then we'll see if after I read the rest of what you
>wrote there's much left worth commenting about (civilly of course...)
Maybe you should get someone who comprehends English to read these threads
to you. C-Max has nothing to do with Commander X; Commander X has nothing to
do with C-Max. C-Max programs the CPU-XA, Ocelot, and Leopard; Commander X
does not program the CPU-XA, Ocelot, or Leopard. No one other than you has
ever claimed otherwise.
Commander X does not download to any interface because it never made sense
to spend time writing code to do so when all of the interfaces that are
capable of running standalone come with software to program them.
Some people use C-Max exclusively with the ADI controls. Some people use
HomeSeer with the ADI controls. Some people use software from other
companies that support the ADI controls. Some people prefer to use Commander
X to control the ADI controls via the serial port because Commander X has
other features they find useful. Some people use an internal program created
with C-Max and Commander X at the same. Some people use Commander X when
they are home and switch to the internal program when away.
And don't bother with any further waste of bandwidth. I should have
kill-filed you long ago. I usually don't waste this much time with such
idiocy.
Scott Robinson
"Robert L Bass" <alar...@home.com> wrote in message
news:t0Ep4.8592$hT2....@news1.rdc1.ct.home.com...
Robert L Bass
one fits your particular needs and then buy it (from me, of course:))
--
Regards,
Robert L Bass
==========================>
Bass Home Electronics
The Online DIY Alarm Store
http://www.Bass-Home.com
80 Bentwood Road
West Hartford, CT 06107
860-561-9542 voice
860-561-5210 fax
alar...@home.com
==========================>
Scott Robinson <rre...@earthling.net> wrote in message
news:KVFp4.35474$632.1...@news1.rdc2.on.home.com...
: Ocelot -- sans PC once programmed with C-Max Control.
: > :
: >
: >
:
:
Dan Wright
news:t0Ep4.8592$hT2....@news1.rdc1.ct.home.com...
> Hmm. I was under the impression that both Elk and Ocelot can run sans PC.
No?
>
> <H...@xxxhydrologistxxx.com> wrote in message
> news:38a7f999...@news.supernews.com...
> :
>
They both can run quite well without a PC attached.
As I understand it, there is a version of Savoy which can create a download
module for the Elk, Commander-X, HomeSeer, etc. can not do that for an
Ocelot. However, the next assertion that the Ocelot is worthless without
the PC on or that things need to be done 2X is where things *start* to
diverge between Marc and Dave. IMO, the Savoy support feature is a nice,
though I think perhaps a bit oversold in this situation. In my experience,
most CPU-XA users write their code in CMAX and let it run in the CPU-XA. If
they also run a 24/7 PC they can use HS or C-X in parallel to monitor and
even task the units while the CPU-XA is running its CMAX program. This
feature seems to have gotten lost in the fray, yet I found it one of the key
and unique features of the CPX-XA family.
I looked very hard at the Magic Modules before I chose the CPU-XA line. I
really like Elk security equipment and have had excellent success with it in
the past. I even love their "reusable poly storage box" . IMO they make
the best off the shelf power supply for a CPU-XA network (ELK-P412).
However when I made my assessment, CPU-XA was a better choice for me.
Applied Digital was expanding their product line with more to come. The
Magic Module family appeared dormant, or at least very under marketed and
supported. Also at that time, the distributors were strongly pushing the
Applied Digital products.
Recently there have been some postings here in the newsgroup that more Magic
Module products are coming. They will need to be accompanied by better
marketing and support from Elk and the distribution network as well.
Clearly Applied Digital is leading in this area with a growing HA
constituency, an active mailing list, a continuing stream of application
notes, even 3rd party tools. In the past it was my perception (and Marc
disagreed with me here when I stated it) that CPU-XA pretty well owned the
modular embedded HA controller market. Now that there are some signs of
life in the MM module family, that may well change and we will all benefit
from it, but IMO Elk is clearly playing catch up.
- Dan Wright
Dan Wright
manufacturer, as their interfaces clearly indicate (ibutton Caddx...). Also
if you are not in or near the security business, you have probably not heard
of them. Outside of their niche, they seem to be a well kept secret. Thus
my earlier comment about a distinct lack of marketing, at least to the HA
arena. You may well be the highest profile DIY distributor they have.
That said, I built my zoned house annunciation distribution system
completely with Elk parts for less than $100. Even got a few more of those
great "reusable poly storage boxes".
- Dan
Robert L Bass <alar...@home.com> wrote in message
news:hMKp4.9002$hT2....@news1.rdc1.ct.home.com...
> I have a CPU-XA (courtesy of Brian Karas) and my Magic Module is on its
way
> (courtesy of Wade Moose). I'm looking forward to learning all I can about
their
> respective capabilities, especially the interface with Napco and Caddx
security
> systems. The toughest part for me is finding the time to work on them.
>
> One thing that Elk does offer which I don't see from ADI is plug-in
support of
> security systems. They have one module that works with the Caddx
"NetworX"
> series alarm controls. I've sent them the protocols for Napco. Hopefully
this
> will result in a Napco Gemini module as well. For those who want to
integrate
> HA with a stand-alone security system, this is a real plus.
>
> OTOH, the network of support for ADI's products (mailing list, etc.) gives
ADI
> an edge for the DIY'r. Brian's efforts in this area are no small part of
ADI's
> strength. He does for ADI what I do for DIY'rs with alarm systems. As
more
> dealers get involved in the online community I think we'll see major
growth for
> both these lines.
>
> One thing I did notice about Elk that has not happened with ADI is that I
made
> several sales immediately upon adding their product line. From the moment
I
> offered Elk I've been fielding inquiries. There has been more interest in
the
> line than anything except Napco and Caddx.
>
> Regards,
> Robert L Bass
>
> ==========================>
> Bass Home Electronics
> The Online DIY Alarm Store
> http://www.Bass-Home.com
> 80 Bentwood Road
> West Hartford, CT 06107
> 860-561-9542 voice
> 860-561-5210 fax
> alar...@home.com
> ==========================>
>
>
> Dan Wright <star...@erols.com> wrote in message
> news:887f58$1k0$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
> : Robert L Bass <alar...@home.com> wrote in message
> :
> :
> :
>
>
Neil Cherry
>Robert L Bass <alar...@home.com> wrote in message
>news:t0Ep4.8592$hT2....@news1.rdc1.ct.home.com...
>> Hmm. I was under the impression that both Elk and Ocelot can run sans PC.
>No?
>>
>> <H...@xxxhydrologistxxx.com> wrote in message
>> news:38a7f999...@news.supernews.com...
>> :
>>
>
>They both can run quite well without a PC attached.
>
>As I understand it, there is a version of Savoy which can create a download
>module for the Elk, Commander-X, HomeSeer, etc. can not do that for an
>Ocelot. However, the next assertion that the Ocelot is worthless without
>the PC on or that things need to be done 2X is where things *start* to
>diverge between Marc and Dave. IMO, the Savoy support feature is a nice,
>though I think perhaps a bit oversold in this situation. In my experience,
>most CPU-XA users write their code in CMAX and let it run in the CPU-XA. If
>they also run a 24/7 PC they can use HS or C-X in parallel to monitor and
>even task the units while the CPU-XA is running its CMAX program. This
>feature seems to have gotten lost in the fray, yet I found it one of the key
>and unique features of the CPX-XA family.
The Ocelot I currently have is stand alone. But because I have a PC
running 7x24 I wish to have it interface and amend the running program
(not change the CMAX program but provide creative interference). I
must note that I have no knowledge of the Elk family of products. I
also haven't gotten around to writing my software yet.
--
Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry nch...@home.net
http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52 (Graphics GB)
Robert L Bass
Regards,
Robert L Bass
: Robert L Bass <alar...@home.com> wrote in message
: news:t0Ep4.8592$hT2....@news1.rdc1.ct.home.com...
: > Hmm. I was under the impression that both Elk and Ocelot can run sans PC.
: No?
: >
: > <H...@xxxhydrologistxxx.com> wrote in message
: > news:38a7f999...@news.supernews.com...
: > :
: >
:
: They both can run quite well without a PC attached.
:
: As I understand it, there is a version of Savoy which can create a download
: module for the Elk, Commander-X, HomeSeer, etc. can not do that for an
: Ocelot. However, the next assertion that the Ocelot is worthless without
: the PC on or that things need to be done 2X is where things *start* to
: diverge between Marc and Dave. IMO, the Savoy support feature is a nice,
: though I think perhaps a bit oversold in this situation. In my experience,
: most CPU-XA users write their code in CMAX and let it run in the CPU-XA. If
: they also run a 24/7 PC they can use HS or C-X in parallel to monitor and
: even task the units while the CPU-XA is running its CMAX program. This
: feature seems to have gotten lost in the fray, yet I found it one of the key
: and unique features of the CPX-XA family.
Claus V.
have appeared there before.
Claus V.
Dan Wright wrote in message <8881c5$pf0$1...@bob.news.rcn.net>...
>Clearly the different heritages of both companies shows. Elk is a
security
>manufacturer, as their interfaces clearly indicate (ibutton Caddx...).
Also
>if you are not in or near the security business, you have probably not
heard
>of them. Outside of their niche, they seem to be a well kept secret. Thus
>my earlier comment about a distinct lack of marketing, at least to the HA
>arena. You may well be the highest profile DIY distributor they have.
>
>That said, I built my zoned house annunciation distribution system
>completely with Elk parts for less than $100. Even got a few more of those
>great "reusable poly storage boxes".
>
>
>- Dan
>
>
>Robert L Bass <alar...@home.com> wrote in message
>news:hMKp4.9002$hT2....@news1.rdc1.ct.home.com...
Robert L Bass
Some sale, eh?
Regards,
Robert L Bass
==========================>
Bass Home Electronics
The Online DIY Alarm Store
http://www.Bass-Home.com
80 Bentwood Road
West Hartford, CT 06107
860-561-9542 voice
860-561-5210 fax
alar...@home.com
==========================>
Claus V. <claus...@usa.net> wrote in message
news:8883p2$jp0$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
: Elk modules are on sale in the national Radioshack.com flyer this month and
: >> :
: >> :
: >>
: >>
: >
: >
:
:
Claus V.
got to count for something. I'm surprised I've never see the
ADI/CPU-XA/Ocelot line advertised there since RS does push a fair amount of
overpriced X-10 stuff.
Claus V.
Robert L Bass wrote in message ...
Robert L Bass
exposure. O should think more brick & mortar retailers will begin carrying HA
stuff over the next few years. The more people who are exposed to the
possibilities of HA, the more who will seek out online providers.
In the alarm arena DIY is a relatively small slice of a very large pie. In HA
it is a fairly large slice of a much smaller pie. As system capabilities grow,
the two areas are tending to merge somewhat. That bodes well for online
merchants such as myself and Brian. Watch for an IPO in a couple of years. :)
Regards,
Robert L Bass
==========================>
Bass Home Electronics
The Online DIY Alarm Store
http://www.Bass-Home.com
80 Bentwood Road
West Hartford, CT 06107
860-561-9542 voice
860-561-5210 fax
alar...@home.com
==========================>
Claus V. <claus...@usa.net> wrote in message
news:8885i7$5v6$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
: I didn't say they had good prices! (-: But exposure in the ratshack flyer's
: got to count for something. I'm surprised I've never see the
: ADI/CPU-XA/Ocelot line advertised there since RS does push a fair amount of
: overpriced X-10 stuff.
:
: Claus V.
:
: Robert L Bass wrote in message ...
: >Radio Shack's "sale" price is $349.99 nearly twice my regular price of
: $189.00.
: >Some sale, eh?
:
:
:
Brian Karas
>merchants such as myself and Brian. Watch for an IPO in a couple of years. :)
;) Actually, we now have a brick and mortar store opening soon. I
figure this way, I'll have all the bases covered...
Patrick Hurley
(I am between Detroit and AA).
pth
Brian Karas <br...@futurestandard.com.doitsu> wrote in message
news:38a7eb0e....@news.teleweb.net...
Brian Karas
building in the downtown area.
For those unfamiliar with the area New Boston is a quaint old village,
most of the business buildings are renovated homes and buildings
averaging about 100 years old.
http://www.futurestandard.com/FSSHome.jpg
FTR, those aren't _my_ decorations :)
[] [] "Patrick Hurley" <sp...@hurleyhome.com> was saying:
H...@xxxhydrologistxxx.com
wrote in message <38a709cb...@nntp.fuse.net>:
>H...@xxxhydrologistxxx.com wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 13 Feb 2000 14:24:37 GMT, dhou...@fuse.net (Dave Houston)
>>wrote in message <38a6ad22...@nntp.fuse.net>:
>>
>>Dave has once again forgotten his manners. It also seem that he has
>>forgotten what he wrote in the Commander-X manual:
>>
>> Commander X≥ requires that the PC be running all the time
>> - it does not download schedules to any of the supported
>> interfaces.
>
>Other than you, who the hell ever said anything different?
I didn't say that of course. But Dave is trying to be offensive, not
accurate.
>How does it follow that because Commander X does not download to the
>interfaces that they are unable to run standalone when programmed
>with the software that is supplied with them?
I didn't write that either. What I wrote was:
>> >ABIK, the CPU-XA/Ocelot doesn't require a full-time PC to operate
>> >using its native software, i.e., it can run standalone.
and
>> > As I now understand it, folks who want a distributed system in
>> > which individual devices can run standalone with the computer
>> > off will find that HomeSeer and Commander-X won't do it this with
>> > the ADI Ocelot ($120) but Savoy's "free" Elk-only CyberHouse
>> > will with the Elk MM443S ($135) and MM220S ($32) modules.
So I (Marc) didn't write that it couldn't be done with "the software
that was supplied with them", did I? Dave just made that up for his
own purposes. I wrote that it couldn't be done with HomeSeer and
Commander-X. And it can't. But, as I also wrote, it _can_ be done with
CyberHouse. This was my point (as I think Dave actually does know).
Dave had previously written:
IMHO, the SIMPLE programming language that Elk uses makes
C-Max look positively user friendly and C-Max, itself, often
gets less than glowing reviews.
What in fact I _did_ I write about "the software that was supplied
with them" was that:
Elk's SIMPLE programming language is superfluous IMO if your
needs are met by CyberHouse which is a higher level
application than either Homeseer, Commander-X, SIMPLE or C-Max
-- with the attendant advantages and disadvantages for
programmers and non-programmers alike.
That Ocelot will run standalone with it's own factory-provided
software is self-evident and I never claimed anything to the contrary.
But it does NOT run on an instruction set provided to it by
Commander-X.
But CyberHouse WILL -- all by its lonesome -- compile and download
instructions to the PIC's so Elk's SIMPLE or any _other_ program is
not required ("superfluous"). So programming done through CyberHouse
controls the operation of the MM443S whether or not it is running
standalone or operating with CyberHouse running.
IMO this is a software difference comparable to, and at least as
important for ease of use by the user, as the advance from traditional
compile-link-run-debug programming to integrated development
environments was for professional programmers.
This seems important to me because Homeseer and Commander-X are still
too complicated in actual use to have much impact on the mainstream HA
market. CyberHouse has a powerful underlying architecture and rule
engine and the new skins/interfaces/scene-managers seem to be more
progress in the right direction for many folks. Reliable, friendly
software -- not lack of hardware -- is the primary obstacle to
widespread acceptance of HA and focusing on minor hardware differences
is silly.
HTH .. Marc
Marc_F_Hult
H...@xxxhydrologistxxx.com
H...@xxxhydrologistxxx.com
wrote in message <t0Ep4.8592$hT2....@news1.rdc1.ct.home.com>:
>Hmm. I was under the impression that both Elk and Ocelot can run
sans PC. No?
>
><H...@xxxhydrologistxxx.com> wrote in message
>news:38a7f999...@news.supernews.com...
>:
Yes. But there are important architectural differences. One is that
CyberHouse can modify the standalone operation of the "S" versions of
the Elk modules(that's why you may want to buy those and not the
non-"S"), whereas Commander-X and HomeSeer can't reprogram the
Ocelot-- you have to use Yet Another Program.
This is roughly equivalent to the olden days when compiling and
executing a program required different executables. CyberHouse
provides a single, high-level programming environment for both
interactive and standalone operation, i.e., it includes a compiler to
write code executable by the PIC's in the Elk modules -- but HomeSeer
and Commander-X don't for the microprocessor/controller(s) in the
Ocelot.
For example, a PC running CyberHouse could be programmed to wake up
and re-survey the world it controls, reprogram one or more Elk modules
as required, and then go back to sleep having made changes to the
operation of the control system. With the programs for the Ocelot with
which I am familiar, they might wake up and interact, but once they
went back to sleep for whatever reason, the Ocelot would still be
executing the same code as it did before it woke up (Ever have a day
like that? ;-)
To me, this is an important distinction.
CyberHouse consists in a Server program that resides on the computer
with the hardware interfaces and one or more Client programs where
rules are written and which interface between the user and the Server.
It doesn't matter where on the net the Clients run. They are no more
or less powerful running on the same cpu as the server as from a my
laptop from wherever.
So if I'm controlling my home automation system over the net, I have
almost the same control of the Elk modules as if they were on my
workbench at home -- which is to say I have complete control because I
can rewrite and download new code for them to execute.
But in the case of the Ocelot with C-max + other third-party software,
one would have run yet another remote control program like pcAnywhere
to execute C-Max as _well_ as communicate with HomeSeer or Commander-X
with a web browser (if in fact you can do that as one can with
CyberHouse 4.0).
My basic point was and still is that one should look at the
capabilities of the software before deciding on the hardware.
Unfortunately, there gaping hole in the middle of the CyberHouse
pricing scheme. If the "free" Elk-only version doesn't do enough for
one's needs (and several important things have been left out), the
next big step up in performance costs >~$1500. It didn't use to be
that way. Some of the emerging products may fill the gap.
H...@xxxhydrologistxxx.com
wrote in message <hMKp4.9002$hT2....@news1.rdc1.ct.home.com>:
>
>One thing that Elk does offer which I don't see from ADI is plug-in
>support of security systems. They have one module that works with
>the Caddx "NetworX" series alarm controls. I've sent them the
>protocols for Napco. Hopefully this will result in a Napco Gemini
>module as well. For those who want to integrate HA with a
>stand-alone security system, this is a real plus.
What you will be seeing in many cases is essentially the same hardware
pre-programmed/pre-configured with different firmware/software
downloads for different purposes with different prices depending in
part on the perceived added value.
>OTOH, the network of support for ADI's products (mailing list, etc.)
>gives ADI an edge for the DIY'r. Brian's efforts in this area are no
>small part of ADI's strength. He does for ADI what I do for DIY'rs
>with alarm systems. As more dealers get involved in the online
>community I think we'll see major growth for both these lines.
I gotta get me one them Pumas or Ocelots or whatever they call them
;-) I have a client that wants a controller (not HA related) for which
they would be great The hang up is that C-max is completely unsuited
for the client.
>One thing I did notice about Elk that has not happened with ADI is
>that I made several sales immediately upon adding their product line.
>From the moment I offered Elk I've been fielding inquiries. There
>has been more interest in the line than anything except Napco and
>Caddx.
Take a look at what Savoy has done with the Hamlet.
http://www.savoysoft.com/Products/AS200E%20Series/hamlet_intro.html
They've taken the MK400S kit that you and Brian sell for less than
$200, added a power strip (!), a $20 RTC, a TW-523 and a new user
software interface running the same core software that last I knew
comes free with the kit, and offer it up for $1210! But as
configured, it is designed so that it can actually get used by
non-technical folks, and installed by installers who are not computer
technicians.
... Marc
Marc_F_Hult
H...@xxxhydrologistxxx.com
Brian Karas
>and re-survey the world it controls, reprogram one or more Elk modules
>as required, and then go back to sleep having made changes to the
>operation of the control system. With the programs for the Ocelot with
>which I am familiar, they might wake up and interact, but once they
>went back to sleep for whatever reason, the Ocelot would still be
>executing the same code as it did before it woke up (Ever have a day
>like that? ;-)
FWIW... While you cannot use a 3rd party app to download new programs
to the Ocelot (at this time...) you can however use a 3rd party
program to twiddle various timers and variables in the Ocelot.
I have a VB program that I wrote that adjusts variables in my Ocelot
when various things happen.
Granted, this approach requires that you have to pre-determine
everything that could possibly need to be twiddled, but it does non
the less provide for the ability for a 3rd party to alter the manner
that the Ocelot operates.
>To me, this is an important distinction.
While I do agree that it is a neat feature of the Magic Module (and
for the record, I do like several things about the Magic Module) it is
not in most home automation applications a must-have, or even useful
feature. (Note I said most, not all). Other than the Magic Module I
don't know of any other controllers that would allow you to re-program
the device "automagically".
>So if I'm controlling my home automation system over the net, I have
>almost the same control of the Elk modules as if they were on my
>workbench at home -- which is to say I have complete control because I
>can rewrite and download new code for them to execute.
>
>But in the case of the Ocelot with C-max + other third-party software,
>one would have run yet another remote control program like pcAnywhere
An option for the Ocelot family that I am not aware of for the Magic
Module (or other controllers) is the modem. With an Adnet modem
attached to the Ocelots serial port you can dial in remotely and
re-program the Ocelot, and/or do anything else that you would do with
C-max. This is still a 2-part solution, but it doesn't require a
pcAnywhere type of scenario.
>My basic point was and still is that one should look at the
>capabilities of the software before deciding on the hardware.
IMO, it's a package deal. Every major controller seems to come with
it's own proprietary software, and the combinations all have their own
strengths and weaknesses.
H...@xxxhydrologistxxx.com
wrote in message <38a6ad22...@nntp.fuse.net>:
Insults deleted
>The Elk modules are interdependent. If the module with the RTC goes
>down, all modules that are time dependent are up the proverbial
>creek. If the module that does X-10 goes down, all modules that react
>to X-10 events are also up that creek.
Dave flat-out makes up the part about "The Elk modules are
interdependent", perhaps out of ignorance. Each and every MM443S can
have its _own_ RTC. They are only interdependent if you program them
to be interdependent. In fact, they can be programmed specifically
NOT to be interdependent -- and so perform a watch-dog function and/or
provide redundancy. A strength, not a weakness.
Having duplicate TW-523's is more complicated for a variety of obvious
reasons unrelated to the Elks themselves but in my system, I do in
fact have one TW-523 X-10 controller on an Elk MM443S and another
different X-10 controller (a CM11a) that is controlled by a different
CyberHouse Server which is on 24/7. (But my goal is to get rid of
nearly all X-10).
My point was and continues to be that having a distributed system that
does not rely on having a computer 24/7 can have advantages over a
monolith controller and/or one that requires 24/7. One of these
advantages is the potential for building in redundancy and
self-surveillance.
>I've had a Slink-e for about two years. I also have a CPU-XA and an
>Ocelot. Based on hands-on experience with all of them, I'd say they
>have comparable capabilities. The Slink-e is much more of a DIY
>project than the ADI products.
Is Dave using the Slink-e to control Sony CD changers? If so, I find
it hard to believe that he would write in this newsgroup that Slink-e
and Ocelot/CPU-XA "have comparable capabilities". But then Dave also
wrote that he had no financial interest in Commander-X so we should be
ready for a good chuckle from time to time.
>Does your Slink-e require a full-time PC? Mine does.
>Was your Slink-e free? Mine cost $185.
>Does your Slink-e require programming skills? Mine does.
Say what? You need programming skills to use CDJ ?
See http://www.nirvis.com/
>Is your Slink-e heavily oriented towards Sony products? Mine is.
Bet your booties it is. That's why I got it.
>Can your Slink-e control some of the new Sony products that have a
>port labeled "S-Link"? Mine cannot.
But that's because Sony has played fast and loose with what it calls
"S-Link" This is long-standing Sony issue, not a Slinke-e problem (but
Dave knew that.)
>
>Looks to me like you've got far more money invested and still need a
>PC running full-time.
No, I do not "need a PC running all the time." Dave's asserting this
does not make it so. Among other times, I do need the computer if I
want to use the Slink-e to control my Sony 300-CD changer when I am at
home listening to music. This is different than having to depend on
the computer working when I am NOT at home. This is not difficult to
understand.
>Looks like you argue against a PC when it suits your purposes and
>argue for it when it suits your purposes.
Looks to me that Dave just wants to argue. Of _course_ I use a PC
when it suits my purposes.
... Marc
Marc_F_Hult
H...@xxhydrologistxxx.com
H...@xxxhydrologistxxx.com
wrote in message <38a709cb...@nntp.fuse.net>:
>H...@xxxhydrologistxxx.com wrote:
>>The ELK modules can run the SAME instructions put together with the
>>SAME high level program (CyberHouse) STANDALONE or with the PC on
>>and doing the computing and instructing. This is a important
>>difference (unless you enjoy doing everything twice).
>
>Who has to do everything twice? You program the interface with C-Max
>ONCE! You program the interface with Commander X NEVER!
We're still not connecting here.
Number of Programs purchased/obtained:
C-Max + Homeseer/Commander-X = 2
CyberHouse = 1
Number of different programming languages learned:
C-Max + Homeseer/Commander-X = 2
CyberHouse = 1
Number of different configs/apps written:
C-Max + Homeseer/Commander-X = 2
CyberHouse = 1
Number of programs to open and change:
C-Max + Homeseer/Commander-X = 2
CyberHouse = 1
Number of different programs to debug/backup
C-Max + Homeseer/Commander-X = 2
CyberHouse = 1
Number of programs to upgrade/install/debug:
C-Max + Homeseer/Commander-X = 2
CyberHouse = 1
Number of additional remote programs needed to run C-max
+Homeseer/Commander-X over internet = 1
CyberHouse = 0
And so on.
Not to mention that CyberHouse is _vastly_ easier to use than C-max
for the average non-programmer.
Dave's statement that "You program the interface with C-Max ONCE! ",
suggests to me that Dave either writes things for the sake of
disagreeing, or his implementation of Home Automation and mine are
quite different.
H...@xxxhydrologistxxx.com
message <slrn8aejo...@dmc.uucp>:
>The Ocelot I currently have is stand alone. But because I have a PC
>running 7x24 I wish to have it interface and amend the running
>program (not change the CMAX program but provide creative
>interference). I must note that I have no knowledge of the Elk family
>of products. I also haven't gotten around to writing my software yet.
If you can run everything that you need to do with one controller,
great. My own experience with these sorts of controllers
(environmental mostly but very similar), is that through time the
requirements and code grows. Things (at least _my_ things ...) get
more convoluted and less reliable as you keep "improving" and
expanding and solving resource limitations until one day the system
starts making "mistakes" (from your point of view). Even if you can
fix it this one last time, the platform is may be too limited. Which
may mean going back to square one.
Having individual devices (Elk modules, security panels, thermostats,
and so on) lets you stop tinkering with them when they are "done". You
built/code it and if it works you can leave it alone. When you need
more capacity you add more modules, not Yet More Code to the existing
monolith. And the development platform is the same as the
application/user platform. I can program a $32 MM220S and if the
requirement outgrows that module, reuse the same/similar
configuration/high-level programming in a MM443S.
That my HA platform of choice is now Windows is ironic. I'm very sure
that I was the absolutely the last person on my block to give up on
Coherent (a cheeky, <$100 Unix-like variant that ran on 286's). The
Coherent box was the first computer at my house that ran 24/7, though
it fell way short of 365 ;-)
... Marc
Marc_F_Hult
H...@xxxHydrologistxxx.com
Mike Baptiste
mgmt software for the HCS-II will be going open source. There are also a
number of user developed solutions including Windoze based HOST replacements
& various Linux & Java programs which will also be included in this effort.
I'm still putting the web pages and backend software mgmt stuff together as
well as coordinating with users who already have stuff they want to
contribute.
While the onboard firmware for the HCS-II will remain proprietary (mostly
for stability and consistancy reasons), opening up the compiler and HOST
will allow users to satisfy their own needs for HCS-II access and control.
One user has even thought about working fuzzy logic into a new compiler for
the HCS-II. We hope to grow this section of our site into an area where
users can even share XPRESS routines for use in their own home control
programs.
We will announce when it is ready on this group and the HCS-II newsgroup
located at news://bbs.circuitcellar.com/local.cci.hcs2
Mike
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Mike Baptiste bapt...@cc-concepts.com
Creative Control Concepts http://www.cc-concepts.com/
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"Brian Karas" <br...@futurestandard.com.doitsu> wrote in message
news:38b18bc5...@news.teleweb.net...
H...@xxxhydrologistxxx.com
wrote in message <887f58$1k0$1...@bob.news.rcn.net>:
snip
>As I understand it, there is a version of Savoy which can create a
>download module for the Elk, Commander-X, HomeSeer, etc. can not do
>that for an Ocelot.
At least I was mostly clear about that ...
All current versions of CyberHouse through v4.0 that I've seen can
compile and download instructions to the Elks.
>However, the next assertion that the Ocelot is worthless without the
>PC on or that things need to be done 2X is where things *start* to
>diverge between Marc and Dave.
Hmmm ... I didn't *think* I wrote "worthless" ... ;-)
(And FWIW, I didn't -- although what I did write seemed to have an
equivalent, unfortunate effect on some folks. That wasn't my
intention.)
And apparently I figure in more into my 2X than some other folks. When
I learned French, I didn't miraculously start speaking Spanish. I had
to learn it separately. And when I learned Fortran, Z80 assembly
didn't appear in my neurons too. And when I learned how to use
CyberHouse, Elk's SIMPLE language didn't immediately become part of my
repertoire -- and probably never will because I don't have to learn it
thanks to CyberHouse.
One of Dave H's points was that neither Simple nor C-max are known for
their friendliness. Not having to learn them, or load them, or run
them, or update them when new versions come out, or figure what I
should try to do with SIMPLE instead of CyberHouse (or CyberHouse
instead of SIMPLE), or debug them or ... These are all things that I
have avoided doing twice. And when I sit down to make a change, I
don't have to open SIMPLE and Open CyberHouse. And type and click for
a while in CyberHouse and then type and Click in SIMPLE. And so on.
But different key-strokes for different folks. No doubt some people
are quite sure that it is "no more work" to turn off the hot and cold
water using two-handled faucets than using one-handled ones. I won't
try to convince anyone otherwise despite what the physics might
indicate ;-)
CyberHouse is closer than any of the other software I've used/looked
at/written to getting me where I think I need to be to have the home
automation acceptable to others.
Making it okay for _me_ isn't the big problem. I like wires hanging
out of things ...
snip
>Recently there have been some postings here in the newsgroup that
>more Magic Module products are coming. They will need to be
>accompanied by better marketing and support from Elk and the
>distribution network as well.
The obvious conclusion after seeing what Elk/Savoy did and didn't
present at CEDIA, and subsequently talking several times to Savoy's
National Sales Manager, and looking at their new $1200-> $3000+?
product line in some detail (mostly for ideas on how to structure what
has grown to be a complicated system at my own house) is that Savoy
and Savoy/Elk are focusing on very different markets than the DIY
market that ADI has at present.
There is some overlap, but much less than it would seem if all you do
is compare the Elk/ADI hardware. The difference is mostly in the
software and it inclusion as downloads (firmware) and so its
consistent application in the security/HA industry (as opposed to
DIYers).
Savoy's experience (according to Savoy) was that they, rather than the
hardware manufacturers, ended having to provide costly support for
each new hardware device that got added to a CyberHouse system. At the
very low end at least, it would seem that Savoy has gotten some sort
of income stream by creating higher priced, Savoy versions of the Elk
modules. But these are small, incremental $ amounts/device. To include
other devices like wired lighting, security panels, and thermostats,
and Cutler-Hammer AC panel control and so on, Savoy has effectively
raised their prices 3-4X. For example, as far as I can tell, not
everything that used to be included in the $400 Suite A package when I
purchased it is now available in the $2400 EnergyOne package (but the
latter does include about $450 of hardware and software support for
the Cutler-Hammer and a thermostat.
This is a very schizoid pricing, and it may be interesting to some
people what else evolves in the $<500 range.
I don't know of any software for the Ocelot comparable to CyberHouse
in its full, pricey version. Is there?
... Marc
Marc_F_Hult
H...@xxxhydrologistxxx.com
Robert L Bass
As to the price gap between "nice" and "fabulous" I'll be looking at different
solutions other than Cyberhouse next week at the EH Expo (HAA show) in Orlando.
So far it looks like at least a half dozen denizens of CHA will be at the show,
either looking or showing. It should be pretty good this year. Perhaps I'll
have something mid-priced when I get back.
There is one other nice thing about Magic Module. They offer drop-in connection
to the Caddx Networx series alarm system controls. This makes it easier for
someone just getting started in HA to integrate alarm sensors with HA
functionality... a real plus for the DIY market. I hope ADI will be able to
offer the same thing some time.
--
Regards,
Robert L Bass
==========================>
Bass Home Electronics
The Online DIY Alarm Store
http://www.Bass-Home.com
80 Bentwood Road
West Hartford, CT 06107
860-561-9542 voice
860-561-5210 fax
alar...@home.com
==========================>
<H...@xxxhydrologistxxx.com> wrote in message
news:38dd809d...@news.supernews.com...
: On Sun, 13 Feb 2000 19:57:13 GMT, "Robert L Bass" <alar...@home.com>
: wrote in message <t0Ep4.8592$hT2....@news1.rdc1.ct.home.com>:
:
: >Hmm. I was under the impression that both Elk and Ocelot can run
: sans PC. No?
: >
: ><H...@xxxhydrologistxxx.com> wrote in message
: >news:38a7f999...@news.supernews.com...
: >:
:
: Yes. But there are important architectural differences. One is that
: CyberHouse can modify the standalone operation of the "S" versions of
: the Elk modules(that's why you may want to buy those and not the
: non-"S"), whereas Commander-X and HomeSeer can't reprogram the
: Ocelot-- you have to use Yet Another Program.
:
: This is roughly equivalent to the olden days when compiling and
: executing a program required different executables. CyberHouse
: provides a single, high-level programming environment for both
: interactive and standalone operation, i.e., it includes a compiler to
: write code executable by the PIC's in the Elk modules -- but HomeSeer
: and Commander-X don't for the microprocessor/controller(s) in the
: Ocelot.
:
: For example, a PC running CyberHouse could be programmed to wake up
: and re-survey the world it controls, reprogram one or more Elk modules
: as required, and then go back to sleep having made changes to the
: operation of the control system. With the programs for the Ocelot with
: which I am familiar, they might wake up and interact, but once they
: went back to sleep for whatever reason, the Ocelot would still be
: executing the same code as it did before it woke up (Ever have a day
: like that? ;-)
:
: To me, this is an important distinction.
:
: CyberHouse consists in a Server program that resides on the computer
: with the hardware interfaces and one or more Client programs where
: rules are written and which interface between the user and the Server.
: It doesn't matter where on the net the Clients run. They are no more
: or less powerful running on the same cpu as the server as from a my
: laptop from wherever.
:
: So if I'm controlling my home automation system over the net, I have
: almost the same control of the Elk modules as if they were on my
: workbench at home -- which is to say I have complete control because I
: can rewrite and download new code for them to execute.
:
: But in the case of the Ocelot with C-max + other third-party software,
: one would have run yet another remote control program like pcAnywhere
: to execute C-Max as _well_ as communicate with HomeSeer or Commander-X
: with a web browser (if in fact you can do that as one can with
: CyberHouse 4.0).
:
: My basic point was and still is that one should look at the
: capabilities of the software before deciding on the hardware.
: Unfortunately, there gaping hole in the middle of the CyberHouse
: pricing scheme. If the "free" Elk-only version doesn't do enough for
: one's needs (and several important things have been left out), the
: next big step up in performance costs >~$1500. It didn't use to be
: that way. Some of the emerging products may fill the gap.
:
: HTH ... Marc
:
: Marc_F_Hult
: H...@xxxhydrologistxxx.com
Dan Wright
- Dan
Brian Karas <br...@futurestandard.com.doitsu> wrote in message
news:38b1d8f1...@news.teleweb.net...
> ADI already has taken steps to make their products "play nice" with
> the OmniPro panels...
>
> [] [] "Robert L Bass" <alar...@home.com> was saying:
> >I hope ADI will be able to
> >offer the same thing some time.
>
> --
Dan Wright
<H...@xxxhydrologistxxx.com> wrote in message
news:38b197d1...@news.supernews.com...
> On Sun, 13 Feb 2000 18:35:54 -0500, "Dan Wright" <star...@erols.com>
> wrote in message <887f58$1k0$1...@bob.news.rcn.net>:
> snip
>
snip for brevity
>
> The obvious conclusion after seeing what Elk/Savoy did and didn't
> present at CEDIA, and subsequently talking several times to Savoy's
> National Sales Manager, and looking at their new $1200-> $3000+?
> product line in some detail (mostly for ideas on how to structure what
> has grown to be a complicated system at my own house) is that Savoy
> and Savoy/Elk are focusing on very different markets than the DIY
> market that ADI has at present.
While Elk is at the upcoming EH show, per the show website, Savoy is not
going to have a booth. Its hard to get much of an inroad with the
distributors and installers if your are not a player major events. My
concern about Savoy's ability to be there in the future is one of the things
that steered me away from Cyberhouse in the first place. As I understand it
from distributor, ADI sells much more of their gear to OEMs and
integrators, and not all that much to the DIY community. End user sales are
incidental in volume but important for market feedback to them.
>
> There is some overlap, but much less than it would seem if all you do
> is compare the Elk/ADI hardware. The difference is mostly in the
> software and it inclusion as downloads (firmware) and so its
> consistent application in the security/HA industry (as opposed to
> DIYers).
You are correct that this is a substantive difference and one often
overlooked, which in turn make me wonder why it is not more popular. Are
you also saying that this is a well founded long term strategic partnership
or is it marriage of convenience for this point in time for both products.
I ask that since the latter is typically the norm in today's technical
companies.
>
> Savoy's experience (according to Savoy) was that they, rather than the
> hardware manufacturers, ended having to provide costly support for
> each new hardware device that got added to a CyberHouse system. At the
> very low end at least, it would seem that Savoy has gotten some sort
> of income stream by creating higher priced, Savoy versions of the Elk
> modules. But these are small, incremental $ amounts/device. To include
> other devices like wired lighting, security panels, and thermostats,
> and Cutler-Hammer AC panel control and so on, Savoy has effectively
> raised their prices 3-4X. For example, as far as I can tell, not
> everything that used to be included in the $400 Suite A package when I
> purchased it is now available in the $2400 EnergyOne package (but the
> latter does include about $450 of hardware and software support for
> the Cutler-Hammer and a thermostat.
>
> This is a very schizoid pricing, and it may be interesting to some
> people what else evolves in the $<500 range.
>
> I don't know of any software for the Ocelot comparable to CyberHouse
> in its full, pricey version. Is there?
As odd as it seems, I would worry if there was. To be able to have 3rd
party S/W download to an embedded device requires a level of stability if
not maturity in a product. That also means that the product may not be in a
rapid ongoing cycle of improvements, that is the expectation in the market
today. ADI has not chosen to lock in the virtual machine in the Ocelot
since it is still growing regularly. As I stated a while back, up until
recently, the Magic Module line looked moribund. Be interesting to see
where it goes in the future.
>
> ... Marc
>
> Marc_F_Hult
> H...@xxxhydrologistxxx.com
>
Dan Wright
Brian Karas
Brian Karas
One of the things that's nice about the OmniPro is the ability to add
extra serial interfaces. With WebLink, OmniPro, the Ocelot,
Commander-X, and some other black magic, you sure can do a lot :)
[] [] "Dan Wright" <star...@erols.com> was saying:
>And it works superbly :-)
>
>- Dan
>
>Brian Karas <br...@futurestandard.com.doitsu> wrote in message
>news:38b1d8f1...@news.teleweb.net...
>> ADI already has taken steps to make their products "play nice" with
>> the OmniPro panels...
--
Robert L Bass
things are coming. Meanwhile, since Napco and Caddx sell many times the number
of systems HAI does, this is probably of greater interest to Elk. But I want it
all -- I want to offer Elk and ADI along with integration to HAI, Napco, DSC and
Caddx.
The HA market is in its infancy compared to alarm systems. I think we'll see
the kind of penetration in this market that we now have for security systems
within less than 10 years. I've ridden the wave of growth in the security
market for 20 years. HA is the next wave....
Brian Karas wrote:
:
: ADI already has taken steps to make their products "play nice" with
: the OmniPro panels...
:
: [] [] "Robert L Bass" <alar...@home.com> was saying:
: >I hope ADI will be able to
: >offer the same thing some time.
--
Regards,