"sweet treatment for diabetes" പ്രമേഹത്തിന് മധുരമൂറും ചികിത്സ!

[viswanathan chathoth]

പ്രമേഹത്തിന് മധുരമൂറും ചികിത്സ!

This is the title of a 3 page article in the November 2009 issue of "manorama Aarogyam"  magazine. This is about the 'revolutionary' treatment strategy of Dr.M.V.Prasad of kenichira in Wynad, who does not restrict intake of sugars for his diabetic patients. He is reportedly planning to celebrate a festival by distributing ladduus to 5000 diabetics.

Dr.Prasad reportedly passed MBBS in 1995, from Calicut medical college, and is presently working as Asst.surgeon at PHC, Kenichira.

According to the report, Dr. Prasad's sweet treatment ("മധുര ചികിത്സ") started on the day when 'years back', a 73 year old lady was brought to his clinic .Her blood sugar was 304 gm% , and she was on 80 units of insulin, in addition to oral hypoglycemics. the report does not say which mediicnes Dr. Prasad gave her during the consultation. However, we are told about the details of waht her diet was like. I will try to translate the relevant part:  " one chappathi each for breakfast and lunch, and 'muthaari' for supper-this was her diet. Doctor sent her home with an instruction to eat all types of food.immediately after reaching home, she drank tea with sugar, and fell unconscious immediately. She was immediately taken to doctor, and her (blood) sugar was found to be reduced to 27 (gm/dl) . Doctor (Prasad) says that the nonfunctioning  pancreas must have tried to 'eliminate' (പുറന്തള്ളല്‍) accumulated insulin upon unexpected intake of sugar. Thereafter, he thought about including sugar in the trweatment of diabetics. Thougfh he has strted treatment about five to six years back, it is only recently that patients are coming en masse , after getting to know the benefits of this treatment." He is reported to claim that  " In the conventional therapy for diabetes, artificial insulin is injected, and the already damaged pancreas becomes more non-vital. Threfore,the non vital pancreas can be rejuvenated and insulin can be generated in the body itself,  only if all kinds of diets containing energy and sugar are included in the diet".

To say the least, I am quite upset by this report. My own sister-  already having retinopathy and recently on insulin- was quite enthused by this 'discovery ' by this good doctor who studied in the same institution as her dear brother. I had to use very strong words to stop her from experimenting on 'madhura chikitsa'. 

[Muralidharan Enarth Maviton]

Dear Vish,
What do you have to say about other herbal remedies that suddenly appear from nowhere, receive great publicity and popularity and then goes  out of the picture. The 'insulin plant'  Costus pictus is one example.   Gymnema sylvestre , Gur mar (Hindi )( Chakkarakolli in Malayalam) has a longer presence. Chewing leaves of the latter does  temporarily numb the taste buds that senses sweetness but how that can have an effect on blood sugar, I cannot imagine.

I am worried more of the possible unforeseen toxic effects of these plants when no sort of clinical trials are carried out. From that point of view homeopathy is so harmless!

Murali

2009/11/17 viswanathan chathoth <vis...@gmail.com>

[Muralidharan Enarth Maviton]

I thought this is as good an opportunity as any to speak up, as moderator, about an issue that has been on my mind for some time. This group is a forum for Brights from all over India but for some strange reason all activity here is restricted to a few Brights from Kerala. I cannot think of a good explanation for this except that the first few members were from the State and therefore the messages might have developed a local flavor and that might have put off  the others from further interaction. I  say this because I have felt this way when  in some of the other groups where I am a member, the discussion for example  becomes so specific to US  and the American way of life that I don't feel like joining in even when something interesting is going on.

I say this after seeing Viswanathan's message with Malayalam script. It does make the messsage much easier to read and understand, but then I am a Malayali. To generalise,  should we avoid embellishing  our messages with vernacular terms ( and also of  very provincial  issues, the nuances of which might not be grasped by all) even when all the issues are  clear to anyone without any knowledge of the language.  Will this be annoying ( however slightly) the non Kerala members?

  What does the group have to say about this? Particularly those from outside Kerala. 

Or is this not an issue at all.


Murali
(Moderator)

2009/11/17 viswanathan chathoth <vis...@gmail.com>

[viswanathan chathoth]

Dear Murali,

I am quite aware of this predicament.One non-keralite member was surprised to see an article from a malayalm newspaper forwarded to the list , exclusively in Malayalam script.  . In the case of my recently posted letter, I can assure my non keralite friends that you miss nothing by not being able to read the few words in malayalam in my letter. they are all translated in the text itself. Except "muthaari' which i missed....it is 'ragi', or 'finger millet'

As for me, i am quite  eager to learn the occasional word from other indian languages that embellish letters from friends of other states. However, as you rightly noted, inclusion of malayalam scripts is likely to annoy , and i would be certainly more careful in future.

Viswanathan

2009/11/17 Muralidharan Enarth Maviton <emmu...@gmail.com>

[Sashikumar kurup]

As information to non-Keralites, let me add that the place where this
doctor practises is a village in one of the relatively backward
districts with a higher level of under-educated and tribal population
in Kerala, and so this news has not come into a public discussion
proper. I also doubt whether most of the patients are really diabetic,
since a collusion between a local lab and a doctor in an interior
village is very easily arranged for mutual benefit. This could be a
case of well thought-out charlatanism rather than the crackpot
explanation. The failures in the few patients who are genuinely
diabetic might be easily explained away as a Govt doctor in a rural
village has a lot of credibility in the villager's mind.........sashi

On 18/11/2009, narendra nayak <nare...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I think it is very important for us to remember proper units when
> reporting values. blood glucose is in mgs/dl and NOT GMS/DL. These
> sort of mistakes give an opportunity for our detractors to ridicule
> us.
>
> Narendra Nayak
>
> 2009/11/17 viswanathan chathoth <vis...@gmail.com>:

[viswanathan chathoth]

>Gymnema sylvestre , Gur mar (Hindi )( Chakkarakolli in Malayalam) has a longer presence. Chewing leaves of the latter does  temporarily numb the taste buds that senses sweetness but how that can have an effect on blood sugar, I cannot imagine.

The following explanation is from the article "Gymnema sylvestre -a memoir" by  , Kanetkar P, Singhal R, Kamat M. published in  J Clin Biochem Nutr. 2007 September; 41(2): 77–81

 

"The atomic arrangement of gymnemic acid molecules is similar to that of glucose molecules.These molecules fill the receptor locations on the taste buds thereby preventing its activation by sugar molecules present in the food, thereby curbing the sugar craving. Similarly, Gymnemic acid molecules fill the receptor location in the absorptive external layers of the intestine thereby preventing the sugar molecules absorption by the intestine, which results in low blood sugar level These molecules fill the receptor locations on the taste buds thereby preventing its activation by sugar molecules present in the food, thereby curbing the sugar craving. Similarly, Gymnemic acid molecules fill the receptor location in the absorptive external layers of the intestine thereby preventing the sugar molecules absorption by the intestine, which results in low blood sugar level."

Full text of the article is available at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2170951/?tool=pubmed

 I am not very happy with the quality of this article, however.

 

Costus pictus also has some evidence regarding its hypoglycemic effects.See this paper from Cochin:
"Antihyperglycemic and insulin secretory activity of Costus pictus leaf extract in streptozotocin induced diabetic rats and in in vitro pancreatic islet culture" by G. Gireesh et al in journal of ethnopharmacology ,vol.123, issue 3, 25 june 2009.

 

But using these and other plants in crude form is likely to be a dangerous game, I fear. Regarding plants, especially those used as foods,we have much traditional knowledge derived by trial and error by many generations. Use of chakkarakkolli or costus pictus for treatment of diabetes are not even 'time tested' in this manner, i understand.

Even in case of vegetables, I think overstepping traditional method of use should be done with extreme caution. I will recount a personal anecdote:

Sauropus androgynus ("Madhra cheera"/'Cekur manis" ) is a leafy vegetable I grew up with. It was available in plenty in our backyard, and i must have eaten tons of it during my childhood years -cooked in water, with grated coconut garnishing.Later, when we started growing our own vegetables, we planted this hardy (and quite tasty) plant in plenty. However, by chance , a few years ago, i came across the startling news that this  plant can cause very serius lung disease. I searched internet and found that Sauropus androgynus  caused an epidemic of obstructive lung disease in Taiwan.The vegetable was a new introduction from Malayasia-where they are eaten in a cooked form.However, in Taiwan, it so happened that  "uncooked  androgynus juice was widely advertised as a "natural diet vegetable containing large amounts of nutrients and good for rapid weight reduction."Additionally, it was promoted as being effective in controlling hypertension, gynecologic problems, hyperlipidemia, hyperuricemia, urolithiasis, gall stones, and constipation."  The lung disease developed in people who took it uncooked. The lung damage produced was quite severe and irreversible, I understand.

http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/145/9/842 

 I have not stopped eating cooked Madhura cheera,but.

 

Drinking litres of raw bitter gourd juice("paavakka'/'kayppakka') is a current fad among diabetics. Traditionally, we have always used bitter gourd in a cooked form. We have no idea whether this juice is doing any harm.

Viswanathan

 

2009/11/17 Muralidharan Enarth Maviton <emmu...@gmail.com>

Dear Vish,

[Harish M Tharayil]

I am raising a related issue. Now a days we see several articles in health magazines written by specialist of Complementary and Alternative medicine (CAM). We also see several talks being given by them on TV channels. The organization and style is the same. It starts with a brief overview of basic anatomy, physiology and later pathophysiology and pathology of the disease. Even genetic / endocrinolgical / cellular level alterations are explained as if copied from an authentic medical text book on the subject. But later on as they proceed to treatment part, the language changes to nonspecific predictions and claims which are too good to be true. I recently heard a talk in Kairali People channel in which a homeopath from Tvm was clearly explaining the genetic abnormalities underlying cancer. But he was upset that majority of his patients come for treatment after radio / chemo therapy. Because of this he is unable to give 100% cure. But a few people come to him in the earliest phase who get 100% cure for their cancer. The talk would impress even a specialist as he quotes eloquently from text books, explaining the nuances in plain simple Malayalam. Gullible public may believe in the authenticity of such claims and risk their life. He may be labeling several persons as having cancer and extracting money as there is no way to confirm or refute his claims / diagnosis. In the field of mental health too we have been seeing this. CAM specialists claim that they have cured autism, learning disorder. ADHD etc using their specific treatment. Any one who knows English can buy a medical text book, read it and quote from it.  This creates an impression on the listener who believes that the speaker is an authority. But what he says after that is not backed by the same text book. The system of medicine he learnt has not even a word to say about the particular condition in which he claims to be an expert. There is not much mention of Cancer in homeopathy / ayurveda text books. But still they pretend to have the know;ledge and mislead public.  

A clinical psychologist who runs a talk show on mental health in the same channel was openly soliciting CAM practitioners to his fold and making claims about how much they could benefit by collaborating with each other. Is there any violation of law involved in all these ? What can be done ? 

2009/11/18 viswanathan chathoth <vis...@gmail.com>

--
Dr. Harish. M. Tharayil
Assistant Professor of Psychiatry
Government Medical College
Kozhikode 673008, Kerala
Mob:+919847280957

[Sashikumar kurup]

I have also noticed that Kairali People's Channel is the greatest
offender in this respect ( so-called progressive ! ) Nowadays there is
no need for a text book also, simply googling for the stuff is enough.
The anchors of some of these programmes are Modern Medicine
practitioners themselves, which makes it more credible to the
listeners. the Channels do not have to go around searching for
sponsors and ads for these programmes, the CAM companies themselves
are the advertisers and sponsors. If modern medicine companies and
hospitals were allowed to advertise, I think the CAM guys would go out
of business. ( I am not advocating that, there would be enormous
problems with it ). The Govt can universally apply the same ethics
uniformly to any activity that claims cure for illnesses. This can be
made into law. Another rule that can be brought is, like in the
warning on alcohol etc, a disclaimer banner stating that the above
suggested treatment has not been subjected to RCTs and peer reviewed,
should be compulsorily run at the bottom of such programmes. This can
be made applicable to the print media also.This will meet the Channels
needs for revenue, while taking away the exploitative element. I hope
some advocacy group can petition the govt and place in the public
discussion the workable latter suggestion. As such now, to my
knowledge, only fraud can be alleged, but for that you have to have a
locus standi as a victim first.....sashi

>> "Antihyperglycemic and insulin secretory activity of *Costus pictus* leaf
>> extract in streptozotocin induced diabetic rats and in *in
>> vitro*pancreatic islet culture" by G. Gireesh et al in journal of

>> ethnopharmacology ,vol.123, issue 3, 25 june 2009.
>>
>> But using these and other plants in crude form is likely to be a dangerous
>> game, I fear. Regarding plants, especially those used as foods,we have
>> much
>> traditional knowledge derived by trial and error by many generations. Use
>> of
>> chakkarakkolli or costus pictus for treatment of diabetes are not even
>> 'time
>> tested' in this manner, i understand.
>> Even in case of vegetables, I think overstepping traditional method of use

>> should be done with extreme caution. I will recount a personal anecdote: *
>> *

>>
>> Sauropus androgynus ("Madhra cheera"/'Cekur manis" ) is a leafy vegetable
>> I grew up with. It was available in plenty in our backyard, and i must
>> have
>> eaten tons of it during my childhood years -cooked in water, with grated
>> coconut garnishing.Later, when we started growing our own vegetables, we
>> planted this hardy (and quite tasty) plant in plenty. However, by chance ,
>> a
>> few years ago, i came across the startling news that this plant can cause

>> very serius lung disease. I searched internet and found that *Sauropus
>> androgynus** *caused an epidemic of obstructive lung disease in

>> Taiwan.The vegetable was a new introduction from Malayasia-where they are
>> eaten in a cooked form.However, in Taiwan, it so happened that "uncooked

>> *androgynus *juice was widely advertised as a "natural diet vegetable

[viswanathan chathoth]

Dear Harish, Sashi;

The CAM scams are squeezing our people mercilessly. Somehow, at least in Kerala, it is not 'politically correct' to criticise CAM.May be, the same holds true for most of India.  Governemt spends crores on setting up and maintaining homeopathic hospitals and homeopathic medical colleges, and is now including it along with all other CAM modalities, as legitimate branches of medicine in the soon to be established health university. ( I understand this is at variance with the report submitted by Dr.Ekbal, who suggested a university for modern medicine.) Certainly, scientific evidence for homeopathy is not very different from that for astrology. Astrology is not yet a course of study in  universities of Kerala, i feel,  only because of historical reasons, not out of our commitment -as a society -to scientific temper.

One may consider at least a  few groups in our society to be  natural allies of scientific medicine: Practitioners of biomedicine and people professing allegience to materialistic politico-philosophical ideas, for example.

Curiously, we hardly ever see any principled objection to CAM exploitation from practitioners of modern medicine.(Harish's long, lone fight being an exception that proves the rule) My guess is that this is because most see it only as a matter of professional rivalry -at the most. They soon learn to do what they do with their fellow-practitioners of biomedicine, adopting a policy of live and let live. In any case, as Sashi indicated, the modern medicine establishment is really big, and there is still not enogh  competition from CAM  to hurt the deeper pockets.

Most  practitioners of biomedicine hardly ever develop any critical understanding of CAM modalities.  Like other people with science education in India, majority of medical practitioners never develop a scientific worldview. The neurosurgry professor who would prostrate before the superhuman 'siddhi' of a swami whose speciality is breaking coconut over his skull and a space scientist who would offer 'thulabhaaram' at Guruvayyor temple and expects the magic of balaji to help getting his satellite in orbit; are two representatives of the same system of education.My most recent reminder of this sad fact was provided by a young colleague, with post graduate qualification. The question , put to me as a person who knows the locality better , was: " Who is a good homeopathic doctor around here? my daughter is getting tonsillitis too frequently" 

 

 CAM is not a concern for leftists , either. November issue of sasthragathi (published by KSSP, committed to the motto, 'science for social revolution' ) carries an article from a yoga advocate that vehemently attacks Dr.Manoj Komath's earlier article on Yoga, that we discussed here earlier.It says : " There is a common factor to controversies in our country- the idea that Sanskrit, upanishads, ayurveda, homeopathy, naturopathy, and yoga are anyway unscientific, and that we a few progressives should oppose all these, thus blindly marginalizing these (sanskrit,upanishads etc..)". The writer accuses that Manoj's  is not a Marxist approach.

Scientific temper is nobody's child in India.

Viswanathan

2009/11/19 Harish M Tharayil <drhar...@gmail.com>

[P. Vijaya Kumar]

Dear Dr Viswanathan,

Very well written piece I thought. (Came from the heart, did it not?) Congrats.
If in the medical community you are finding few friends, you can imagine what it is like among lay people.
Almost everyday, in both the college I teach in and in my social life, I come across appalling instances of pious ignorance about diseases and their causes and remedies. When I find myself almost totally isolated I counter with what I call my PPT or "Pey Patti Theory".

I tell people that the true test of their faith in CAM will come when they are bitten by a mad dog.
Whose "theory" or "narrative" about what is happening or will happen to one who is developing rabies will you believe? The "narrative" of Louis Pasteur and that of the practitioners of modern science or that of an homeopath or Ayurvedic practitioner?
You are free to try any treatment I tell them. But if you do anything other than have anti rabies shots, I follow,  "I will admire your courage but attend your funeral."

I've used this argument with a number of people. Sadly not too many are convinced. Not even students of science. Not even after I give details of the Benveniste case (the "memory of water" scam) or the debate in Nature or Ben Goldacre's terrific chapter on homeopathy in "Bad Science".

But one continues to try.

So keep up the good work, dear doctor. I think you are doing a very great job.

Warm regards,
P. VK

2009/11/24 viswanathan chathoth <vis...@gmail.com>

[Harish M Tharayil]

The problem started soon after Independence when the govt (I don't know when, which or who) decided to make Ayurveda and homeo courses last 4.5 plus one year internship. THe DAM, DHM etc were first converted to BAM, BHM etc and later to BAMS, BHMS etc. Soon BSMS was added in Tamilnadu. 

This was done with the sole intention of making these degrees at par with MBBS. This was not based on the course content duration of study etc. The govts started equating them with MBBS and giving similar pay and allowances, though they handle only less than one tenth of patients. Now they have even 3 year MD courses where what they study remains a mystery. I don't think there are separate U G and PG level text books in these subjects. So the underlying issue is clear - it is practice and practice only. As Viswan said most of doctors qualified in scientific medicine have not imbibed the true spirit of science nor its methods. It is only with the advent of EBM that doctors have started to look beyond 'evidence' which is based on eminence. Another issue is the laissez faire doctrine which allows any body to produce and market his product. The only regulator is whether you are able to make people buy your offering. Products licensed to be sold as general health remedies are then advertised and sold as remedies for specific illnesses. This is what is happening to Kamilari, cholesterol QR and most others. The regulators might not be aware that it is their job to control such deviations. Ignorance is bliss not because it is a proverb, but because it earns you MONEY. 
The tragedy is that a huge number of young intelligent students are recruited in to this foul racket, just out of ignorance of their parents and themselves. WHAT A HUGE NATIONAL WASTE !!! WHOSE RESPONSIBILITY IS IT TO PUT AN END TO THIS ???

2009/11/25 P. Vijaya Kumar <pvi...@gmail.com>

[v i j a y a n . a . p]

Dear friends,

 

     What Harish said about thousands young CAM Docors is very true. It is not only a medical /health issue...

 

  These brilliant youngsters who learned science though out their school and college education are destined to practice a system which is obviously unscientific.I know most of these victims of our system lead a confused life or profession.

 

They themself have every right for good medical care for their children /family/themself. When they are ill they have to follow what they preach or follow modern medicine which they reject publicly.This is a real  dilemma of many honest doctors. 

 

Thank you

 

 

2009/11/25 Harish M Tharayil <drhar...@gmail.com>

  BE SMALL & REMAIN VERY SMALL

[viswanathan chathoth]

Dear Vijaya Kumar,
Thanks for the great encouragement.It is unfortunate that though we met at the venue of Meera's talk, we were not able to spend time together.

 >I counter with what I call my PPT or "Pey Patti Theory".

 :-) Similar to what Alan Sokal would say..
"Anyone who believes that the laws of physics are mere social conventions is invited to try transgressing those conventions from the windows of my apartment. (I live on the twenty-first floor.)"
>debate in Nature
On Beneveniste affair, you mean?

>Ben Goldacre's terrific chapter on homeopathy in "Bad Science".

Thanks for telling me..just ordered the book online.
Viswanathan

2009/11/25 P. Vijaya Kumar <pvi...@gmail.com>

Dear Dr Viswanathan,

[Hary Jith]

Dear Harish Sir,   I absolutely agree with you.  When I read your comment, I recalled an incident happened in 1976 or 78 ( I do not remember the year exactly) that the Govt. announced a previlege to Homeo Students as MBS degree.  The MBBS students all over Kerala protested against that. The Slogan of the MBBS students was " Is MBS is a back door to pocket MBBS". At last the Govt. withdrew that previlege.   Any how thanks for your comment Sir.   With Regards   Abdu Raheem --- On Wed, 11/25/09, Harish M Tharayil <drhar...@gmail.com> wrote:

[v i j a y a n . a . p]

:

Like other people with science education in India, majority of medical practitioners never develop a scientific worldview. The neurosurgry professor who would prostrate before the superhuman 'siddhi' of a swami whose speciality is breaking coconut over his skull and a space scientist who would offer 'thulabhaaram' at Guruvayyor temple and expects the magic of balaji to help getting his satellite in orbit; are two representatives of the same system of education.

 

Dear Viswan /Harish/sashi

 

Another sad at the same time interesting  situation in Kerala is the fact that  the most important/prestigious  employer of Modern medical specialists is a God woman.It is really difficult to gauge the scientific temper of  the our reputed doctors who are made to prostrate before Amma who cures all  ailments  of these healers.Do we have  any successful 'rational' hospital management in Kerala,I doubt !

issue of sasthragathi (published by KSSP, committed to the motto, 'science for social revolution' ) carries an article from a yoga advocate that vehemently attacks Dr.Manoj Komath's earlier article on Yoga, that we discussed here earlier.It says : " There is a common factor to controversies in our country- the idea that Sanskrit, upanishads, ayurveda, homeopathy, naturopathy, and yoga are anyway unscientific, and that we a few progressives should oppose all these, thus blindly marginalizing these (sanskrit,upanishads etc..)". The writer accuses that Manoj's  is not a Marxist approach.

 

 

Personally I think Sashtragathi has done nothing wrong by allowing a dissent to express his view, though  we cant agree with him!

I support a democratic culture where Readers ( including all political parties mouth pieces) are allowed to hear different views.The duty of  people of science is to express their facts  with clarity and courage..as done by Manoj Komath and other friends.

..   )           --

-- 

[ravindranath tk]

Dear Dr. Viswanathan,

          One of my former collegues at Irrigation dept. Calicut is a patient of Dr. M.V. Prasad. I enquired about the treatment given by Prasad to him. He was a diabetic patient with blood sugar  above 300 mg. While carrying on  treatment in the traditional way, by the advice of somebody he approached this dr. and now he is undergoing the 'revolutionary treatment'. Today evening I asked him about his condition. He said that yesterday he tested his blood and the blood sugar is 104mg after taking 'payasam'. He is taking all foods including sugar items, as per the advice of Dr. Prasad. He practices a special excercise at two times, morning and evening as advised by Dr. Before excercise he has to take any drink or food with sugar; it is a must. He also said that no medicine is given by Dr. Earlier I had advised him not to experiment with his health. Now as he narrates his experience I am in a confusion. Request your comment.  T.K. Ravindranath, Kozhikode.

2009/11/17 viswanathan chathoth <vis...@gmail.com>

[Anand Nair]

The claim that diabetes can be treated by asking the patient to have sweets plus "special exercise" is truly extraordinary. As in case of all extraordinary claims, we would need to demand extraordinarily strong evidence before accepting this particular claim to be true.

In principle, "success stories" (narrated as "flashback") constitute weak evidence. Any extraordinary claim will need to be investigated through meticulously planned tests that (when carried out in the future) would either validate or falsify specific details of the claim. 

In the case of this person whose blood sugar actually came down (after following the unconventional advise given by Dr. Prasad), there was no testable prediction BEFORE the treatment began. What sort of outcome would have falsified the claim? 

If his blood sugar had not come down (or even had gone up), this would have been attributable to other factors, and would not have falsified Dr. Prasad's claim. 

Just so, when the blood sugar did come down (as it did, if we go by the assertion by the patient himself), this proves nothing. Who had checked the blood sugar before the treatment? Could some other circumstance (other than Dr. Prasad's advise) have led up to the reduction of the blood sugar? Who can answer these questions in this specific case?

Anand

[Sashikumar kurup]

Dear Anand, this is the problem. Each person thinks his/her personal
experience is the best end most ' learnable' experience. Maybe we
have developed that attribute as a part of evolutionary survival in
those primal days when what was good/bad is drawn from personal
experience. The vestiges of this primal attribute may still reside in
some people, so some people just do what does them good, in their
opinion. The primitive man was not concerned about statustical
variabilities and probabilities, the vestiges of which still imhabit
human minds to some extent. In the instant case, I would like more
data, as Anand implied......sashi

[viswanathan chathoth]

Dear Ravindranath,

I should thank both Anand and Sashi.They have already said most of what I have to say.

 

Anand has  stressed the need   for extraordinarily strong evidence -a point I earlier reminded the editor of the magazine in my short letter,  quoting Carl Sagan. 

 Blood sugar(and blood pressure ) are dependent  on  very many  factors , and pinpointing on a particular factor  as the sole agent responsible for some stray observation is not easy, I feel.Thus, for example , in your friends case, I can, shooting from the hip, think of two things atleast.Was the test done two hours after taking ' paayasam' ? (and,how much paayasam?) Did he  do any exercise after eating? A stroll after a meal is a known factor that would appreciably  reduce blood sugar. I am no expert in treating-let alone conducting research on-diabetes, and there must be host of other questions to be answered , before we accept such extraordinary claims with potentially dangerous consequences.

 

 

 Sashi  has pointed out another important issue: the problem with anecdotal evidence.

The danger of depending on 'personal experience' is a painful lesson  learnt again and again all over the world, but more so in our country . Remember Ramar petrol fiasco.At that time, an IIT scientist reportedly suggested a mechanism whereby hydrocarbon prodcuction by Ramar's 'method' was working-there is carbon in atmospheric carbon dioxide , and there is hydrogen in  water, and they are being combined , to produce long chain hydrocarbons! Before thinking about this outlandish 'mechanism' ,the concerned scientist would have been convinced that such hydrocrabon production really is happening in Ramer's Kitchen pot. Here is where the   problem with  personal experience comes in. She, together with a number of the most important people of science establishment in India, 'saw with their own eyes' how Ramar produced petrol with water and herbs, and of course, "seeing is believing"!

Here is part  of the press report that shows how highly qualified people fall easy   prey to the lure of 'personal experience".    

NEW DELHI, September 5: A high school dropout from Tamil Nadu created history yesterday, when he turned water into a petrol-like fuel by mixing it with a herb he discovered in the hills. Scientists witnessing his demonstration at the Indian Institute of Technology (IIT) said they were baffled. ``It is incredible but true,'' exclaimed IIT chemist N K Jha who organised the experiment at the request of the Department of Science and Technolog y (DST). What this discovery means is that, given the herb, one can convert plain tap water into a fuel that can drive a vehicle. In fact 30-year old Ramar Pillai who discovered the amazing herb seven years ago has been doing precisely that in his village near Rajapalayam. Pillai, who was invited to Delhi by DST secretary Valangiman Ramamurti, says his herbal petrol would cost Re 1 per litre. All he wants from DST is money to put up a plant in his native place and personal protection. He recently faced an attempt on his life for refusing to part with his secret.

``I am personally convinced it is a discovery worth pursuing,'' said Ramamurti after repeating the experiment himself. The product burnt with a sooty flame, smelled like kerosene and on distillation yielded a pure hydrocarbon fraction with a boiling point of 170 degree (C). ``We have no doubt that we are sitting on something very big...." ............... Simultaneously, the best scientists in the country are going to be assembled to analyse the chemical process in detail before setting up a plant with a production capacity one million litres herbal fuel per day, Ramamurti said. Defence science adviser A P J Abdul Kalam has been briefed and he is reportedly ``excited.".

It all looks comical to us today, with hindsight on this particular story, but we continue to get enthused, and even enchanted, by other pied pipers. The easiest person to decieve is oneself, and the whole purpose of why science is done, is to save ourselves from the mistakes we would make because of our 'personal experiences'.

 

Robert Park, author of the delightful book, "Voodo Science",lists seven warning signs that would indicate that a particular    scientific claim "lies well outside the bounds of rational scientific discourse." I can see about four and a half  ;-)  of these signs in Dr.Prasad's case! see the article "seven warning signs of bogus science" at http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/signs.html

 

Viswanathan

 

 

2009/11/28 ravindranath tk <tkravin...@gmail.com>

[ravindranath tk]

Dear Viswanathan Sir,

               I have now called my friend (patient) and gathered some more details on the treatment, as you required. His bloodsugar was 366mg when he first consulted Dr. Prasad. Prasad had given him medicines also - 'glinil M'. After taking the medicine for 3 weeks Dr. asked him to stop. In the meantime his bloodsugar reduced to 235,178, and last 104. Last day when he felt fatigue he tested blood and it was seen 83 mg. If he stops excercise he can recover from tiredness, he says. He tests blood after 2 hours taking sugar items with his usual food. Dr. Prasad advises not to do excercise after food; only before food. His relative had advised him to meet this doctor as he had such experience as also so many others. It is said that Dr. Prasad will camp at Kozhikode and he will inform me about the date and insisted me to attend doctor's  class. It is understood that Dr. Prasad's 'treatment' is gaining popularity. As a layman and having only general knowledge on diabetis is puzzled by these informations. As a person who defends only modern medicine, I experience difficulty in establishing my point in this case.  T.K. Ravindranath.

2009/11/29 viswanathan chathoth <vis...@gmail.com>

[Harish M Tharayil]

Viswan, Vijayan, Sashi and others,

I think this needs further investigation. If this Dr has found some new method to reduce blood sugar (which is aim of all treatments given in Diabetes mellitus) and he does not have expertise to further investigate his claims and produce credible evidence, we should help him by offering our expertise in conducting research. If it is just a trick played to gain cheap popularity, he has to be exposed. Can we do something ?

2009/11/30 ravindranath tk <tkravin...@gmail.com>

[Sashikumar kurup]

Dear Ravi, did all the changes occur when he was taking glinil M ?
Did all this happen after he stopped the tablets ? when is the first
time he took this treatment , and was there a relapse any time ? From
your account, it does not sound that fantastic. A detailed history
from some patients might be useful. It will be good if you can inform
us of the exact date and time of his class in Calicut. Thank
you........sashi

>>> baffled. ``It is *incredible but true*,'' exclaimed IIT chemist N K Jha

>>> who organised the experiment at the request of the Department of Science
>>> and
>>> Technolog y (DST). What this discovery means is that, given the herb, one
>>> can convert plain tap water into a fuel that can drive a vehicle. In fact
>>> 30-year old Ramar Pillai who discovered the amazing herb seven years ago
>>> has
>>> been doing precisely that in his village near Rajapalayam. Pillai, who
>>> was
>>> invited to Delhi by DST secretary Valangiman Ramamurti, says his herbal
>>> petrol would cost Re 1 per litre. All he wants from DST is money to put
>>> up a
>>> plant in his native place and personal protection. He recently faced an
>>> attempt on his life for refusing to part with his secret.
>>>

>>> ``I am *personally convinced* it is a discovery worth pursuing,'' said
>>> Ramamurti *after repeating the experiment himself*. The product burnt

[Anand Nair]

It is clear now that the subject had taken Glinil M, a standard medication (of modern medicine) to control diabetis! Then where is the "mystery"? What is the role played by the "new method"?

The question is:- what caused the blood sugar to fall? The "new method" or "Glinil M"? Unless backed up with extraordinarily strong evidence, we will do well to give credit to Glinil M, rather than to the extraordinary claims. The latter would appear to extraneous rituals of the type that magicians routinely indulge in, to divert attention away from the real "trick"!

Anand

PS.

From an internet source:-

"The drug works by inhibiting ATP-sensitive potassium channels^[3] in pancreatic beta cells. This inhibition causes cell membrane depolarization, which causes voltage-dependent calcium channels to open, which causes an increase in intracellular calcium in the beta cell, which stimulates insulin release."

[Anand Nair]

This is an excellent case study to highlight the dangers of relying on "success stories" (narrated as "flashback") :-

Original narration of Dr. Prasad's alleged "success" with the "new method":-

"He was a diabetic patient with blood sugar  above 300 mg. While carrying on  treatment in the traditional way, by the advice of somebody he approached this dr. and now he is undergoing the 'revolutionary treatment'. Today evening I asked him about his condition. He said that yesterday he tested his blood and the blood sugar is 104mg after taking 'payasam'. He is taking all foods including sugar items, as per the advice of Dr. Prasad. He practices a special excercise at two times, morning and evening as advised by Dr. Before excercise he has to take any drink or food with sugar; it is a must. He also said that no medicine is given by Dr."

Revised narrative (when specifics were insisted upon):-

"His bloodsugar was 366mg when he first consulted Dr. Prasad. Prasad had given him medicines also - 'glinil M'. After taking the medicine for 3 weeks Dr. asked him to stop. In the meantime his bloodsugar reduced to 235,178, and last 104. Last day when he felt fatigue he tested blood and it was seen 83 mg. If he stops excercise he can recover from tiredness, he says. He tests blood after 2 hours taking sugar items with his usual food. Dr. Prasad advises not to do excercise after food; only before food."

I detect the following factual inacuracies in the original narration:-

a) The suggestion that at the end of the treatment in the "traditional way" the blood sugar was 300 mg. (The fact is that "traditional treatment" alone brought down blood sugar from 366 to 104 mg!)

b) The sugestion that the blood sugar of a person reduced from above 300 mg to 104 mg AFTER TAKING PAYASAM. (Fact:  "Traditional treatment" -- with glinil M and cutting of sugars -- had already brought down blood sugar from 366 to 104 mg or lower BEFORE taking payasam!)

c) The specific statement that "no medicine is given by Dr." (Fact: The reduction in blood sugar followed the taking of glinil M, as advised by Dr. Prasad himself)

Here is the standard ("traditional") advise by a modern medicine doctor to a patient with symptoms of hypoglycemia (excessively low blood sugar) subsequent to treatment with glynin M:-

"Always keep a source of sugar available in case you have symptoms of low blood sugar"

Payasam is a source of sugar, right? So what is new? 

Anand

[ravindranath tk]

Dear Sasi,

          I had got the details of treatment of Sri. Salil (patient - real name hidden) over telephonic conversation with him. Treatment started about one month ago. At the beginning he took glinil M for 2 weeks. Then Dr. told him to stop. During all these time he was taking all  kinds of foods containing sugar, like paayasam. He was frequently testing urine sugar which showed that his diabetes was lowering. He tested blood sugar also which showed diminishing trend, 104mg last time. For more details i will contact Salil in person and will inform you therein. He had promised me to inform the date of Dr's class, which i shall convey to you all. 

  thanking you,   Ravi.

2009/11/30 Sashikumar kurup <sashiku...@gmail.com>

[viswanathan chathoth]

Dear Ravi, Anand;

I wanted to write earlter, but got too busy at hospital. Yesterday was over only at 3.30 AM :-)

>As a layman and having only general knowledge on diabetis is puzzled by these informations. As a person who defends only modern medicine, I experience difficulty in establishing my point in this case.

It is unfortunate that people with the moral responsibilty to provide scientifc information to public are not doing enough, to say the least.The helplessness you expressed reflects on the apathy of the biomedical community which we discussed earlier.

One thing about treatment of diabetes that  I remember from my undergraduate days-I looked up my old 'Davidson's principles and practice of medicine' to check again today- is this: "There are three methods of treatment , namely diet alone, diet and oral hypoglycemic drugs and diet and insulin"

 It is a misconception that treatment of diabetes always needs drugs.As my old book says, "Approximately 60% of new cases of diabetes can be controlled adequately by diet alone,and about 20% will need oral hupoglycemic drug and another 20%, mainly younger patients, will require insulin. " ....."Practically all young patients who develop diabetes before the age of 40 require treatment with insulin. ....The majority of patients developing the disease over the age of 40 CAN and SHOULD (emphasis mine) be controlled by diet alone..."

So, if a doctor claims that he is treating most of his type 2 diabetes using no drugs, he is just doing scientific medicine, and needs all encouragement. One major problem with Dr.Prasad's claims is that he is going blatantly against standard scientific principles regarding diet, which, as I understand, is the most crucial element in treatment of diabetes. Compare this standard textbook description to 'Sweet treatment", for example : 'Davidson's' says:"Types of diet: Basically there are two types of diet: (1) measured, in which amount of food to be eaten at each time of the day is specified, and (2) unmeasured, in which the patient is supplied with list of foods grouped in three categories: foods with high sucrose content which are to be avoided altogether; foods containhing carbohydrate in the form of starch which are to be eaten in moderation only, and non carbohydrate foods which may be eaten as desired..." (emphasis mine. Sucrose means cane sugar)

Viswanathan

 

2009/12/1 ravindranath tk <tkravin...@gmail.com>

[v i j a y a n . a . p]

Dear Viswan/Harish/Ravi/Sashi/Anand and friends

 

 

 

     Diabetes has a special place among all modern ailments by the volume of research that has been done in a single clinical condition. Many years of researches  all over the world have brought many path breaking discoveries in the management of diabetes.The discovery  of Insulin in 1920s was a big mile stone in human history.Before the  Insulin discovery diagnosis of diabetes was  death sentence.

 

see the description:

in 1920s Children dying from diabetic keto-acidosis were kept in large wards, often with 50 or more patients in a ward, mostly comatose. Grieving family members were often in attendance, awaiting the  death. In one of medicine's more dramatic moments Banting& Best,  went from bed to bed, injecting an entire ward with the new purified extract. Before they had reached the last dying child, the first few were awakening from their coma, to the joyous exclamations of their families!

 

What is Dr.Prasad's claim ?

 

Is he conducting  clinical research on human beings with known Type 2 diabetics?,Type 1 too ?

( with ethical clearance,informed consent etc)

 

Is he putting  known diabetics on a new trial which does not require Insulin and OHA ?

 

I firmly believe( from the available reports) this as a case of human right violation than medical research or treatment.

 

 

This experiment has the  potential to harm many many  uninformed innocent people ...who are affected with a disease which has standard treatment options that  is accepted all over the world. 

 

I wont allow none of my relatives or friends or patients to sacrifice their health to satisfy the wild claim of a doctor as  diabetes has very effective treatment  now ( I would not have objected before 1920s).

 

If a well controlled diabetic patient (who happened to believe  his claim) die/develop vital organ failure  during the course of his experiment what is the nature of compensation he would  offer ?

 

Is this not a concern of our people ?

 

For him  kerala still a vellerikkapattanam?

 

All modern Govts/Judiciary  make sure that 'doctors' with extraordinary claims pay in millions to their cheated clients..but not ours ..as we have people  who still prefer to live in  dream worlds where extraordinary things happen everyday!

 

Thank you.

 

Dr.Vijayan.AP

 

 

 

 

 

 

           Consultant  Pediatrician

[viswanathan chathoth]

Dear Vijayan,Harish,Sashi,

Is a Babu.K.V.kind of approach possible? Like making the TC Medical council  ask Dr.Prasad either to show up or shut up? (To those who do not know: Dr.Babu.K.V recently succeeded, after prolonged fight, through RTI act,  to force the hands of Indian medical council to intervene in the infamous contract for endorsement of certain Pepsi products by Indian medical Association)
Viswanathan

2009/12/1 v i j a y a n . a . p <drvija...@gmail.com>

[v i j a y a n . a . p]

Good thought Viswan!

Should explore that option.!

 

[Anand Nair]

Let us revisit Dr Prasad's approach to treatment of diabetes (going by the mails from Ravi) :-

a) He used a standard drug of modern medicine (Glinil M) to bring down the level of blood sugar

b) When the blood sugar dropped excessively as a result of this drug (this is a documented side effect of the drug), Dr. Prasad advised sweets to be taken. This too is the standard practice of modern medicine to restore lowered blood sugar to acceptable levels.

c) Now, came the trickery -- Dr. Prasad deliberately played down the role of the standard drug, and pretended that it is the consumption of sugar (a "revolutionary and new" approach) that cured the patient of diabetes. 

This deliberate obfuscation by Dr. Prasad was so effective that in the first narrative, the patient stated that no drug was taken by him -- he probably regarded this fact to be so insignificant that he forgot about it!. Only when specifically asked at a later stage did he recall that  Glinil M was taken -- and that the blood sugar had already sharply dropped,as a result of this drug, before Dr Prasad asked him to have sugar!

This is exactly like the tricks that Sai Baba and Yuri Geller pull on gullible public. They perform stage magic of the type that Sorcar or Muthukkad can do with greater elan & skill. But unlike the honest magicians who make no supernatural claims, these charlatans claim that they are possessed of divine powers. Dr. Prasad appears to have chosen the path of conmanship...

Anand

[ravindranath tk]

Dear Viswanathan Sir,

          You are quite OK and I fully agree with you. My experience is also the same. I fell prey to diabetes during April 2004 with bloodsugar 360mg. My doctor gave me high dose medicine Glimet DS and he gradually reduced the dosage. And before 2 years as per his advice I stopped medicine. Now the bloodsugar level is normal. When I last tested, two weeks ago, it was only 99mg. I am controlling diet. I am aged 58. I am doing the simple excercise, morning walk for 30 or 40 minutes daily.  But in the case of Salil (patient who we are discussing) he is taking sugar abundantly and the test shows that the bloodsugar is coming down. That is the question. He is doing a special excercise, just like folding and unfolding palms etc. as per the advice of Dr. Prasad. Please also note that now he is 40 and he became diabetic before 4 or 5 years ago. (younger age)

2009/12/1 viswanathan chathoth <vis...@gmail.com>

[Anand Nair]

Ravi,

You stated, "But in the case of Salil (patient who we are discussing) he is taking sugar abundantly and the test shows that the bloodsugar is coming down."

Salil's blood sugar came down (from 300 to less than 100) ONLY after he took Glynil M. Now that his blood sugar is under control, he may continue to consume sugar "abundantly"-- but only at the real risk that diabetes may relapse. This is NOT what any self respecting doctor ought to prescribe.

I hope Salil is taking the elementary precaution to have his blood sugar tested once a week or so. Or is Dr. Prasad so confident that he has advised not to check blood sugar any more (now that he is availing of the "revolutionary" therapy?

What happens if Salil's blood sugar reverts to over 300 (say, by 15 Dec 2009)? I hope this will not happen. But by taking sugar "abundantly", he has placed himself at a great risk. He would do well to keep Glynil M handy, just in case...

Anand

PS. No, Salil's blood sugar has NOT come down after he started taking sugar "abundantly". Not as per your second narrative. But if this "coming down" of blood sugar is really true, the guy would soon have to be treated for hypoglycemia (low blood sugar), or his life is in danger...

[Harish M Tharayil]

I don't think the TC Medical council is a clean body with good credentials. They have never bothered to update the database of doctors, conduct proper elections etc. They have never 
shown any indication of being a regulatory body. Their recent attempt to collect money from all registered doctors which masqueraded as a re registration drive has been stayed by the High court recently. Let them have their ways. Don't expect them to do something useful. 

I think it is better to contact this person directly and try to find out his true intentions. If he is a fraud we can either leave him alone for the society to intervene or we can warn him before taking some action. If the Science Trust or some such body is willing to start a body which is willing to investigate bogus claims of treatment, that will be the best course of action.  Dr Prasad's false claim can be a good starting point for us. 

I have always thought about such a regular mechanism, which volunteers to take up such investigations. This can help to educate our media colleagues, who fall prey to such dubious claims because of lack of scientific training. From my interactions with media workers, I have found that majority of them come from arts / humanities stream. Many share a general attitude of anti establishment spirit and a tendency to take most such claims as true. This may be because of their need to grab attention and not miss out on a scoop. A constant vigil and regular efforts are need to help the gullible public from falling prey to conmen. 

It is noteworthy that Dr Prasad has chosen a remote area - Kenichira in Wayand as his place of action. This is another common tendency of such conmen. 

2009/12/2 Anand Nair <asn...@gmail.com>

[Muralidharan Enarth Maviton]

What comes to mind when I read this thread on diabetes cure and that on homeopathy, is the grossly inadequate training in scientific methods that even people specializing in science at university level typically have. In particular, the role that statistical methods play in overcoming the natural tendency to have biases (unwittingly, of course at least in the case of serious investigators) is never given due importance. I am afraid that even the few professional statisticians that I am acquainted with are totally unprofessional in their private lives when it comes to using their knowledge.

A basic level of awareness of the need to have statistical inference when dealing with random phenomena would have brought about an early death to astrology, dowsing, parapsychology  and much of the alternative streams of medicine or at least ended their masquerade as science. Traditional beliefs are so strongly entrenched in the minds of  so many around us that only with a serious concerted effort can it be overcome, at least in the next generation.

Meanwhile we can only hope and "keep our fingers crossed" :-) that the authorities and the legal system will find ways to keep in check at least the more dangerous practices.

Murali

2009/11/30 Harish M Tharayil <drhar...@gmail.com>

[Sashikumar kurup]

I think Harish has sown the seeds of a good idea here. Science Trust
can have a commitee specifically formed to investigate such
extraordinary claims ( obviously of a modest nature, within it's means
). It should be manned by non-medical members, and medical
professionals should act only as advisors ( to free it of any
suggestion of professional jeajousy or allegation of vested interest
in the people's eyes ).
We also do not know if Salil was obese, amd the soctor's advice
included weight reduction. In that case, having sugar may not affect
him in the short term, he being young enough to still have sufficient
insulin reserves. The option for Salil, if he develops diabetes again
while following this doctor's 'fantastic' treatment, is to file a
police case under swc 420 for cheating, and some other sections for
causing wilful harm to his health. RTI may have no role in this matter
if he is a private practitioner. But let us have Babu's opinion on
this. tCMC is a dinosaur and may not have anything to say in this
matter. I strongly suspect the doctor may not hold a class in Calicut.
If he does, we can pool some resources and have it videotaped, and
anakyse it. Members based in Calicut may be able to arrange it, posing
as patients seeking his advice and treatment, and telling the doctor
that the tape is to convince other family members who are also
diabetic. I am sure Science Trust has some resourceful people who can
mange it.
so Ravi, get the time and place, if that really happens.........sashi

>>>> baffled. ``It is *incredible but true*,'' exclaimed IIT chemist N K Jha

>>>> who organised the experiment at the request of the Department of Science
>>>> and
>>>> Technolog y (DST). What this discovery means is that, given the herb,
>>>> one
>>>> can convert plain tap water into a fuel that can drive a vehicle. In
>>>> fact
>>>> 30-year old Ramar Pillai who discovered the amazing herb seven years ago
>>>> has
>>>> been doing precisely that in his village near Rajapalayam. Pillai, who
>>>> was
>>>> invited to Delhi by DST secretary Valangiman Ramamurti, says his herbal
>>>> petrol would cost Re 1 per litre. All he wants from DST is money to put
>>>> up a
>>>> plant in his native place and personal protection. He recently faced an
>>>> attempt on his life for refusing to part with his secret.
>>>>

>>>> ``I am *personally convinced* it is a discovery worth pursuing,'' said
>>>> Ramamurti *after repeating the experiment himself*. The product burnt

[ravindranath tk]

Dear Dr. Harish, 

         

     You wrote:  "From my interactions with media workers, I have found that majority of them come from arts / humanities stream". Is it right to say that all the persons coming from these streams lack scientific temper and outlook? In our experience a lot of 'intellectuals' engaged in the field of science having even Phd. are superstitious or lacking scietific awareness. For example Dr. R. Gopimani. Dont think I am diverting from the subject. Ravi.

2009/12/2 Harish M Tharayil <drhar...@gmail.com>

[ravindranath tk]

Dear Sashikumar kurup,

           

          Sri. Salil is not obese. He was my coworker for long time. He is of average physique. As I said earlier, Dr. Prasad had asked him to have any kind of food without any restriction. So the question of weight reduction doesnot arise, I think. It is a good idea  to have an investigation in the manner you suggested. Of course I will inform the date of his visit at Calicut if it really take place, and if  Salil make me know of it.  Ravi.

2009/12/3 Sashikumar kurup <sashiku...@gmail.com>

[Harish M Tharayil]

Yes, I agree with you. Having a PG or Ph D in science does not make any one immune to superstitions. But what I meantt was this: As majority of them are from non-science stream their lack of knowledge about scientific methods can be excused. But it is true that misinformation / superstitions promoted by those who are experts in fields related to science is more damaging. 

2009/12/3 ravindranath tk <tkravin...@gmail.com>

[Sashikumar kurup]

I agree with both Ravi and Harish in this matter. But there is a
difference which makes Harish's point valid. Men of science are apt to
follow their beliefs, customs, superstitions etc ib the personal
sphere of their lives. Maybe this may be out of genuine belief in
some, or just because of family/community considerations, and will not
practise it in their professions. A teacher may believe in God but
still teach Darwin's evolution to students if it is in the syllabus.
An ignorant scribe can do much damage by expressing falsities as
facts to millions of readers and this can harm society much more than
the private activities of an individual.......sashi

>>>> You stated, "*But in the case of Salil (patient who we are discussing)

>>>> he is taking sugar abundantly and the test shows that the bloodsugar is

>>>> coming down.*"

>>>>
>>>> Salil's blood sugar came down (from 300 to less than 100) ONLY after he
>>>> took Glynil M. Now that his blood sugar is under control, he may
>>>> continue to
>>>> consume sugar "abundantly"-- but only at the real risk that diabetes may
>>>> relapse. This is NOT what any self respecting doctor ought to prescribe.
>>>>
>>>> I hope Salil is taking the elementary precaution to have his blood sugar
>>>> tested once a week or so. Or is Dr. Prasad so confident that he has
>>>> advised
>>>> not to check blood sugar any more (now that he is availing of the
>>>> "revolutionary" therapy?
>>>>
>>>> What happens if Salil's blood sugar reverts to over 300 (say, by 15 Dec
>>>> 2009)? I hope this will not happen. But by taking sugar "abundantly", he
>>>> has
>>>> placed himself at a great risk. He would do well to keep Glynil M handy,
>>>> just in case...
>>>>
>>>> Anand
>>>>
>>>> PS. No, Salil's blood sugar has NOT come down after he started taking
>>>> sugar "abundantly". Not as per your second narrative. But if this
>>>> "coming

>>>> down" of blood sugar is *really* true, the guy would soon have to be

[Anand Nair]

The term "method of science" actually would apply to all fields of human endeavor. 

The "of science" part is only a convenient descriptor to make the meaning clear, and does not suggest that the method is something that is exclusively applicable for the pursuit of knowledge in the field of natural science.

It is true that when the "method of science" is applied to natural science, we get results with a higher degree of assurance of being accurate, than when we apply this to study economics, history or sociology. But what is significant is that (despite the fact of relatively lesser assurance of correctness), the method of science is still the best bet. By applying the method of science to study economics, history, sociology etc, we greatly increase the chances of arriving at correct inferences even in these "non-scientific" fields.... 

In one word, there would appear to be no alternative method (that is superior to the method of science) for studies in areas outside the formal domain of natural science...

I would strongly recommend that the topic, "Method of Science" be included as formal (and important) part of the curriculum for courses in arts, commerce, management, economics, politics and so on...

Anand

[Harish M Tharayil]

Anand,

I can agree to you partly only. Looking at Psychology, it is clear that this field has gained a lot from application of empirical and statistical methods. The same can be said about economics, sociology, anthroplogy etc. But I am not sure whether to agree with your statement that this method applies to "all human endeavors". How would it apply to art, literature, poetry, music, history, politics etc ? Can you please explain

2009/12/4 Anand Nair <asn...@gmail.com>

[Harish M Tharayil]

Anand,

I can agree to you partly. Looking at Psychology, it is clear that this field has gained a lot from application of empirical and statistical methids. The same can be said about economics, sociology etc. But I am not sure whether to agree with your statement that this method applies to human endeavors

2009/12/4 Anand Nair <asn...@gmail.com>

[Anand Nair]

Harish,

When I recommend the "method of science" as a sort of universal, this is for the purpose of effective pursuit of practically useful knowledge, the kind of knowledge that would enable us to predict future trends in the field with some level of confidence -- whatever be the subject under study. 

I am NOT referring to the aesthetic enjoyment that people derive not only from music, art or poetry -- but also when they solve a problem in mathematics or physics. I totally agree that aesthetics is mostly about subjective "feelings". (Of course, we can derive certain "universals" even in the way human beings generally appreciate art and music. Dr. VS Ramachandran's BBC lecture on the "Artful Brain" refers).

But I would definitely say that the "method of science" is the best bet to arrive at practically useful knowledge within the fields of art, literature, poetry, music, history, and politics. For example how do we study the trends and recognize patterns in the way art or politics or poetry evolved in the past few centuries? How do we attempt to make reasonable predictions regarding future trends in these fields? I cannot think of a more appropriate method to carry out these tasks, than the method of science...

Anand

[Anand Nair]

Harish,

I must also add that the essence of the "method of science" is not "application of empirical and statistical methods". These are merely effective tools that are sometimes deployed by those who have adopted the method of science.

Then what is the essence of the method of science? I would summarise this under three principles:-

a) Any theory (or belief) is accepted only so long as this is consistent with available evidence. This means that all theories are basically regarded as tentative -- and subject to be modified or discarded if evidence that surfaces in future warrants this.

b) When available evidence is fragmentary, and of such nature as to allow several alternate theories (all of these consistent with evidence), then the particular theory that is the simplest to explain is preferred over the other more complicated alternatives. (This is called the Principle of Parsimony, or the Ocham's Razor)

c) A theory (or belief) is accepted only if this is falsifiable in principle. That is to say, any theory must enable us to make testable predictions (such that if a prediction is not borne out, this circumstance would falsify the theory). 

This last principle would rule out accepting the theories such as that there is a tea cup in the orbit of Mars that cannot be detected by any instrument. Science cannot (by definition) disprove this claim, but would nevertheless reject this theory as this is in principle non-falsifiable!

Anand

[Harish M Tharayil]

Anand,

Your point (a) essentially means that all theories are provisional. This is probably from Karl Popper and is acceptable.  I don't know whether (b) Occam's razor has any evidence to prove it is true or whether this has come out as valid after experiments designed to falsify it. Other than simplicity and appeal to common sense is there any other proof for it? (c) the criterion of falsifiability is another contribution by Karl Popper. But here there are limitations of method available at any time. If somebody had said that atoms (or protons electron etc later and quarks at present level of knowledge) the scientific community will oppose it, only later (in the first two case at least) to accept it. Here there is an issue of prediction based on an existing theory which is unable to be tested or falsified because of technical limitation. Einstein's theory of general relativity also was accepted provisionally initially, subject to later confirmation by observation of natural phenomena.  I think there is some limitation to the "method of science" because of this reasons, though I can't suggest any better method. 
Fields that are out of the domain of natural / physical sciences can benefit from the method of science, there may be some limitation. But fields like art, history, culture, music etc will be outside the field of science, though scientific methods can explore the underlying neural correlates, neurophysiology etc of these experiences. 

2009/12/4 Anand Nair <asn...@gmail.com>

[Anand Nair]

Harish,

Yes. You are right. The the three principles that I listed are from Karl Popper. 

Occam's Razor applies only when all other things are equal! That is, when there are no grounds (or proof or evidence) that would justify a tilt in favour of any of the alternative theories. In such a circumstance, the preferred strategy is to accept (tentatively) the particular theory that is the simplest. The one that calls for minimum additional assumptions, and certainly one that does not call for convoluted assumptions.

Occam's razor does apply to the atomic theory -- the modern quantum theory -- too. This happens to be the SIMPLEST among all other alternate theories -- the one that calls for minimum additional assumptions. Which is precisely why science has accepted this -- tentatively, of course.

Let us take the shape of the earth. The cave man thought that the earth was flat. This was then a scientifically valid theory -- as this was consistent with the evidence then available to the ancient man. If some one had THEN claimed (in the face of contrary evidence) that the earth is REALLY round, and that the reason he claimed this was because this was "revealed" to him in his dream, this would have been a superstitious claim. And scientific prudence would called for the rejection of the theory.

In other words, "real" truth is not of interest. What is significant to the method of science is that accepted theories (at a point in time) must be based upon then available evidence...

Anand

[Sashikumar kurup]

Anand, yes, I have never heard it said by anybody that Science is the
truth. The 'Truth' has been more or less the stock-in-trade of the
peddlers of religion. Science, or the method of Science is
value-neutral, while 'truth' is only a value attributed to an
assumption at a particular point in time...... .sashi

[Muralidharan Enarth Maviton]

Anand,

I couldn't agree more with you!  What you said about the 'available evidence' should be the rallying point for all rational persons. I am prepared to even concede that there could be the  possibility of  a God ( who in His wisdom, had some reason to not  leave no proof of his existence or how/why  he created the world and life in it)  but still think there is no option but go by available evidence only when it comes to what views I hold now.   Not to be confused with the  agnostic viewpoint.

Murali

2009/12/5 Anand Nair <asn...@gmail.com>

[Anand Nair]

Murali,

Absolutely! Based on currently available evidence, there certainly does not exist a God (by way of a supernatural, non-material entity that can affect the natural, material world). This circumstance alone is the basis of enlightened atheism. 

What if evidence surfaces tomorrow in favour of such a God? In such a (terribly unlikely) circumstance, science would gracefully revise many of the currently accepted theories on cosmology. That is what the method of science is all about...

Anand

[Viswanathan P]

Contrary to what Dr.Harish M Tharayil has stated, the Ayurvedic
courses were not introduced with the sole intention of making theses
degrees in par with MBBS. It was under the guidance of the WHO, that
the central government of India decided to implement these. And the
WHO has a very strong reason for it. In developing countries like
India 75% of the people still depend on traditional medicine. There
are many parameters for this, “accessibility” and “affordability”
being a few. Taking this into consideration, WHO defined a strategy to
efficiently use these traditional medicines. Quoting from “WHO
Traditional Medicine strategy 2002-2005” –
“The WHO Traditional Medicines Strategy 2002–2005 reviews the status
of TM/CAM globally, and outlines WHO’s own role and activities in TM/
CAM. But more importantly it provides a framework for action for WHO
and its partners, aimed at enabling TM/CAM to play a far greater role
in reducing excess mortality and morbidity, especially among
impoverished populations. The strategy incorporates four objectives:

1. Policy — Integrate TM/CAM with national health care systems, as
appropriate, by developing and implementing national TM/CAM policies
and programs.

2. Safety, efficacy and quality — Promote the safety, efficacy and
quality of TM/CAM by expanding the knowledgebase on TM/CAM, and by
providing guidance on regulatory and quality assurance standards.

3. Access — Increase the availability and affordability of TM/CAM, as
appropriate, with an emphasis on access for poor populations.

4. Rational use — Promote therapeutically sound use of appropriate TM/
CAM by providers and consumers.

Implementation of the strategy will initially focus on the first two
objectives. Achieving the safety, efficacy and quality objective will
provide the necessary foundation for achieving the access and rational
use objectives.”

The below given is the link to the WHO document -
http://www.who.int/medicines/publications/traditionalpolicy/en/index.html

Traditional Medicine(TM) and Complementary and Alternative medicine
(CAM) cannot be seen in the same light. TM is something that was
developed along with the human civilization as was the food we eat
today. Clearly it’s the trial and error method that has been followed.
Only drugs that are safe and effective are passed on to the coming
generations. So, people assume the drugs existing today are relatively
safe. All the same if a medicine that is more effective and safe is
discovered, the traditional ayurvedic drugs are gladly abandoned by
ayurvedic practitioners themselves. For example, in the book written
by P.S.Varrier (the founder of Kottakkal Arya Vaidya Sala), though he
has discussed the traditional cure for rabies, he has advocated the
use of modern medicine for it, as it is a better cure. But earlier, it
wouldn’t happen as the physicians were dogmatic.
This broad minded perspective is the result of the study of modern
science along with ayurveda. And this is exactly what the CCIM hopes
to achieve with the introduction of BAMS and MD courses in ayurveda.

The syllabus also encourages the students to critically and rationally
weigh the Ayurvedic science which keeps them from believing and
encouraging the “irrational and hollow” claims made by people like
Ramdev about Ayurveda. The irony here is that it was the doctors of
modern medicine from the IMA unit of Bihar who credited and
felicitated Ramdev!!!

Now coming to the three year MD courses, I happen to be a MD in
Ayurveda Pharmacology, graduated from “Government College Of
Ayurveda”, Hyderabad. There are over 500 drugs in Ayurveda to date,
and it is the pharmacological and toxicological study of one among
these 500 drugs that is done in the 3 years of MD. The classes and
labs are arranged at renowned institutions like “National Institute Of
Nutrition (NIN)”, “Indian Institute Of Chemical Technology (IICT)” and
“Center For Cellular And Molecular Biology (CCMB)”, all in Hyderabad.
The sad part is that it has not been implemented to the fullest. The
problem is not with the syllabus, but with the dogmatic outlook of the
modern science scientists, which hampers effective research. Then
again it is the same scientists who claim that Ayurveda is not a
scientifically proved science. Again an irony!!!

WHO statistics show that 75% of India’s population depends on TM. Even
in cities which boast of high end modern science facilities, a large
chunk of people turn to Ayurvedic treatment. Main reason is the
unscientific and unethical practice of modern science by the doctors.
They never care to explain the side effects of their medicines to the
patients, which results in them loosing the trust of the patients. As
a result the highly used paracetamol tablets now come with an
“injurious to liver” label.
In developed countries it is mandatory for a doctor to clearly explain
the pros and cons of a medicine to the patient. This gives the
patients the freedom to choose. It is possible with modern medicine as
they have a very clear documentation.

This is what Ayurveda lacks. In today’s scientifically advanced
situation, it is a very easy task to study a drug in detail. If it is
done in Ayurveda too, the patient will have the same freedom to choose
as with the modern medicine.

The next question is “Whose responsibility is it?”! Considering that
three fourths of our country’s population depends on TM, it is the
government which should take the initiative with full co-operation
from the modern medicine scientists. At present only a meager 5% of
the country’s total health budget is put aside for Ayurveda. Whether
a full fledged research can be implemented with this mere resource,
I’m not so sure!!!

Finally, about a large number of “intelligent students” opting for
these courses, it is very true!! The closing rank for the BAMS course
in “Kottakal Ayurveda College” last year was below 3000, the third
choice after MBBS and BDS. These days’ parents as well as students
make career choices purely based on “market value”. It is the same
“ignorance” which makes hundreds of “intelligent students” to join the
n – number of private medical colleges in Karnataka. They spend five
years without proper faculty to teach them, without proper
infrastructure to practice. Finally when they come out, they would’ve
hardly ever seen a real patient. For that matter hardly even touched a
syringe! What a huge national waste!!!

Dr.P.Viswanathan,
Kottakkal Arya Vaidya Sala Agency,
Hyderabad – 38.


On Nov 25, 5:25 pm, Harish M Tharayil <drharis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The problem started soon after Independence when the govt (I don't know
> when, which or who) decided to make Ayurveda and homeo courses last 4.5 plus
> one year internship. THe DAM, DHM etc were first converted to BAM, BHM etc
> and later to BAMS, BHMS etc. Soon BSMS was added in Tamilnadu.
> This was done with the sole intention of making these degrees at par with
> MBBS. This was not based on the course content duration of study etc. The
> govts started equating them with MBBS and giving similar pay and allowances,
> though they handle only less than one tenth of patients. Now they have even
> 3 year MD courses where what they study remains a mystery. I don't think
> there are separate U G and PG level text books in these subjects. So the
> underlying issue is clear - it is practice and practice only. As Viswan said
> most of doctors qualified in scientific medicine have not imbibed the true
> spirit of science nor its methods. It is only with the advent of EBM that
> doctors have started to look beyond 'evidence' which is based on eminence.
> Another issue is the laissez faire doctrine which allows any body to produce
> and market his product. The only regulator is whether you are able to make
> people buy your offering. Products licensed to be sold as general health
> remedies are then advertised and sold as remedies for specific illnesses.
> This is what is happening to Kamilari, cholesterol QR and most others. The
> regulators might not be aware that it is their job to control such
> deviations. Ignorance is bliss not because it is a proverb, but because it
> earns you MONEY.
> The tragedy is that a huge number of young intelligent students are
> recruited in to this foul racket, just out of ignorance of their parents and
> themselves. WHAT A HUGE NATIONAL WASTE !!! WHOSE RESPONSIBILITY IS IT TO PUT
> AN END TO THIS ???
>
> 2009/11/25 P. Vijaya Kumar <pvij...@gmail.com>
>
>
>
> > Dear Dr Viswanathan,
>
> > Very well written piece I thought. (Came from the heart, did it not?)
> > Congrats.
> > If in the medical community you are finding few friends, you can imagine
> > what it is like among lay people.
> > Almost everyday, in both the college I teach in and in my social life, I
> > come across appalling instances of pious ignorance about diseases and their
> > causes and remedies. When I find myself almost totally isolated I counter
> > with what I call my PPT or "Pey Patti Theory".
>
> > I tell people that the true test of their faith in CAM will come when *
> > they* are bitten by a mad dog.
> > Whose "theory" or "narrative" about what is happening or will happen to one
> > who is developing rabies will you believe? The "narrative" of Louis Pasteur
> > and that of the practitioners of modern science or that of an homeopath or
> > Ayurvedic practitioner?
> > You are free to try any treatment I tell them. But if you do anything other
> > than have anti rabies shots, I follow,  "I will admire your courage but
> > attend your funeral."
>
> > I've used this argument with a number of people. Sadly not too many are
> > convinced. Not even students of science. Not even after I give details of
> > the Benveniste case (the "memory of water" scam) or the debate in Nature or
> > Ben Goldacre's terrific chapter on homeopathy in "Bad Science".
>
> > But one continues to try.
>
> > So keep up the good work, dear doctor. I think you are doing a very great
> > job.
>
> > Warm regards,
> > P. VK
>
> > 2009/11/24 viswanathan chathoth <visw...@gmail.com>
>
> > Dear Harish, Sashi;
>
> >> The CAM scams are squeezing our people mercilessly. Somehow, at least in
> >> Kerala, it is not 'politically correct' to criticise CAM.May be, the same
> >> holds true for most of India.  Governemt spends crores on setting up and
> >> maintaining homeopathic hospitals and homeopathic medical colleges, and is
> >> now including it along with all other CAM modalities, as legitimate branches
> >> of medicine in the soon to be established health university. ( I understand
> >> this is at variance with the report submitted by Dr.Ekbal, who suggested a
> >> university for modern medicine.) Certainly, scientific evidence for
> >> homeopathy is not very different from that for astrology. Astrology is not
> >> yet a course of study in  universities of Kerala, i feel,  only because of
> >> historical reasons, not out of our commitment -as a society -to scientific
> >> temper.
> >> One may consider at least a  few groups in our society to be  natural
> >> allies of scientific medicine: Practitioners of biomedicine and people
> >> professing allegience to materialistic politico-philosophical ideas, for
> >> example.
> >> Curiously, we hardly ever see any principled objection to CAM exploitation
> >> from practitioners of modern medicine.(Harish's long, lone fight being an
> >> exception that proves the rule) My guess is that this is because most see it
> >> only as a matter of professional rivalry -at the most. They soon learn to do
> >> what they do with their fellow-practitioners of biomedicine, adopting a
> >> policy of live and let live. In any case, as Sashi indicated, the modern
> >> medicine establishment is really big, and there is still not enogh
> >>  competition from CAM  to hurt the deeper pockets.
> >> Most  practitioners of biomedicine hardly ever develop any critical
> >> understanding of CAM modalities.  Like other people with science education
> >> in India, majority of medical practitioners never develop a scientific
> >> worldview. The neurosurgry professor who would prostrate before the
> >> superhuman 'siddhi' of a swami whose speciality is breaking coconut over his
> >> skull and a space scientist who would offer 'thulabhaaram' at Guruvayyor
> >> temple and expects the magic of balaji to help getting his satellite in
> >> orbit; are two representatives of the same system of education.My most
> >> recent reminder of this sad fact was provided by a young colleague, with
> >> post graduate qualification. The question , put to me as a person who knows
> >> the locality better , was: " Who is a good homeopathic doctor around here?
> >> my daughter is getting tonsillitis too frequently"
>
> >>  CAM is not a concern for leftists , either. November issue of
> >> sasthragathi (published by KSSP, committed to the motto, 'science for social
> >> revolution' ) carries an article from a yoga advocate that vehemently
> >> attacks Dr.Manoj Komath's earlier article on Yoga, that we discussed here
> >> earlier.It says : " There is a common factor to controversies in our
> >> country- the idea that Sanskrit, upanishads, ayurveda, homeopathy,
> >> naturopathy, and yoga are anyway unscientific, and that we a few
> >> progressives should oppose all these, thus blindly marginalizing these
> >> (sanskrit,upanishads etc..)". The writer accuses that Manoj's  is not a
> >> Marxist approach.
> >> Scientific temper is nobody's child in India.
> >> Viswanathan
> >> 2009/11/19 Harish M Tharayil <drharis...@gmail.com>
>
> >>> I am raising a related issue. Now a days we see several articles in
> >>> health magazines written by specialist of Complementary and Alternative
> >>> medicine (CAM). We also see several talks being given by them on TV
> >>> channels. The organization and style is the same. It starts with a brief
> >>> overview of basic anatomy, physiology and later pathophysiology
> >>> and pathology of the disease. Even genetic / endocrinolgical
> >>> / cellular level alterations are explained as if copied from an authentic
> >>> medical text book on the subject. But later on as they proceed to treatment
> >>> part, the language changes to nonspecific predictions and claims which are
> >>> too good to be true. I recently heard a talk in Kairali People channel in
> >>> which a homeopath from Tvm was clearly explaining the genetic abnormalities
> >>> underlying cancer. But he was upset that majority of his patients come for
> >>> treatment after radio / chemo therapy. Because of this he is unable to give
> >>> 100% cure. But a few people come to him in the earliest phase who get 100%
> >>> cure for their cancer. The talk would impress even a specialist as he quotes
> >>> eloquently from text books, explaining the nuances in plain
> >>> simple Malayalam. Gullible public may believe in the authenticity of such
> >>> claims and risk their life. He may be labeling several persons as having
> >>> cancer and extracting money as there is no way to confirm or refute
> >>> his claims / diagnosis. In the field of mental health too we have been
> >>> seeing this. CAM specialists claim that they have cured autism, learning
> >>> disorder. ADHD etc using their specific treatment. Any one who knows English
> >>> can buy a medical text book, read it and quote from it.  This creates an
> >>> impression on the listener who believes that the speaker is an authority.
> >>> But what he says after that is not backed by the same text book. The system
> >>> of medicine he learnt has not even a word to say about
> >>> the particular condition in which he claims to be an expert. There is not
> >>> much mention of Cancer in homeopathy / ayurveda text books. But still they
> >>> pretend to have the know;ledge and mislead public.
> >>> A clinical psychologist who runs a talk show on mental health in the same
> >>> channel was openly soliciting CAM practitioners to his fold and making
> >>> claims about how much they could benefit by collaborating with each other.
> >>> Is there any violation of law involved in all these ? What can be done ?
>
> >>> 2009/11/18 viswanathan chathoth <visw...@gmail.com>
>
> >>>  >Gymnema sylvestre , Gur mar (Hindi )( Chakkarakolli in Malayalam) has
> >>>> a longer presence. Chewing leaves of the latter does  temporarily numb the
> >>>> taste buds that senses sweetness but how that can have an effect on blood
> >>>> sugar, I cannot imagine.
> >>>>  The following explanation is from the article "Gymnema sylvestre -a
> >>>> memoir" by  , Kanetkar P, Singhal R, Kamat M. published in  J Clin
> >>>> Biochem Nutr. 2007 September; 41(2): 77–81
>
> >>>> "The atomic
>
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Muralidharan Enarth Maviton]

Viswanthan,

 I have added to the Files  section of the Brights groups site an article and the PP presentation on "Modernising Ayurveda - Prospects for Biotechnology" which I presented at the Global Summit on Ayurveda at Thrissur some years back, after being talked into accepting an invitation from the organisers . I am not very happy at the way the article turned out, giving the  impression, in places, as if I approve of Ayurveda ( which I definitely don't). However it offers some scope for discussing important issues that you raised in your message

I would like to have your comments on what I wrote.

Murali

2009/12/6 Viswanathan P <viswa...@gmail.com>

[viswanathan chathoth]

Nice to see Viswan's first post to Brights group. As a friend since 1978, I take the liberty to introduce him to the group:
Dr.P.Viswanathan, presently settled in Hyderabad,  is from Parassinikkadvu, Kannur, Kerala.He did his B.Sc from SN college, Kannur ; BAMS from Ayurveda College, Kottakkal; and M.D. (Ay) from Govt.College of Ayurveda, Hyderabad.Along with his partner in profession and life, Dr.Leena; he maintains an ethical practice of Ayurveda (a hard act these days!) in the city of Hyderabad for the last 15 years.
Viswanathan.C.

2009/12/6 Viswanathan P <viswa...@gmail.com>

[Muralidharan Enarth Maviton]

Dear Viswanathan Chathoth,

I did not realize that I was addressing a different Viswanathan, even going to the extent of wondering why  you could have taken an MD in Ayurveda!    But then Dr. Viswanathan P. might be just the person to comment on what I have written on Ayurveda. 

Murali

2009/12/7 viswanathan chathoth <vis...@gmail.com>

[v i j a y a n . a . p]

Dear Viswanathan P,

 

Thank you very much for your learned comment on Ayurveda..TM/CAM.

 

 

and we are very happy to have a qualified / rational person who can  transform our monologues to an effective dialogue.

 

 WHO position on CAM. Is it relevant for  Kerala?

 

How far it is appropriate for an over medicalised  region like Kerala is debatable !

 

 

 

What type of changes  in the mortality and morbidity pattern of Kerala 

are  expected by promotion of CAM ? 

 

Or Which are the health problems that need TM/CAM in Kerala ?

 

Thank you

 

 

 

 

[viswanathan chathoth]

Murali,

>I did not realize that I was addressing a different Viswanathan

I am not really surprised at this. :-) We are (near) identical twins, from a world-view perspective . Most of the ideological differences-I think-  we have fought over and got over as far back as our B.Sc days in Kannur.  In fact, I do not remember a single issue where our individual opinions differed significantly, in recent times.

>to comment on what I have written on Ayurveda. 

Though i find most of your views on Ayurveda quite acceptable, at one point, I felt uncomfortable. The unfortunate popular misconception that  biomedicine (a short name I preferred for Clinical medicine based on the principles of the natural sciences) is somehow not "holistic", has crept into your paper as well.See the following quotes:

Modern genomics would tend to support the ayurvedic principle that every individual is unique and treatment needs to be customized.
Modern medicine also needs to bring in a more holistic approach as advocated by  alternative medicine.

As far as I understand, biomedicine has taken forward the concern of its enlightened forefathers (whether of Greek or Indian origin) regarding a holistic approach to health and ill-health.It has not just continued the tradition, but has enriched it beyond the imagination of ancients.
C.Viswanathan

2009/12/7 Muralidharan Enarth Maviton <emmu...@gmail.com>

[Harish M Tharayil]

Dear Viswanathans,

I too had some identity confusion and now only could realize that there are two of you by the same name. It is good to have a qualified Ayurverdic specialist among us. 

Dear Dr Viswanathan (Ay)
I have to ask a few questions to you.

1) Do you think that BAMS course should have the same duration as MBBS ? I think it was more out of the need to give equal status to both degrees that BAMS (which was launched much later than MBBS) was made to have the same duration. Or is it actually needed ?

2) Can you please explain the kind of research that is taking place in your field, especially studies regarding the effectiveness of medications ?

3) Now a days it is quite common to see Ayurvedic specialists  in TV shows / print media. They talk eloquently on various diseases. But they never use the usual Ayurvedic  terms like Vat, Pitta, Kapha etc while explaining the diseases. Instead they use all the terms used by scientific medicine to explain etiology, pathology etc. But when they  reach the section on treatment they suddenly switch over to Ayurvedic / Other system terms. But they never give clear evidence other than subjective claims. Do you agree with such methods ? What is your opinion on the above issues ?

Thanking you in anticipation

Bye

2009/12/7 v i j a y a n . a . p <drvija...@gmail.com>

[Viswanathan P]

Dear Vijayan,

Talking about the relevance of TM today in Kerala, first we should
differentiate between TM and CAM. They cannot be put in the same
bracket. TM has a very strong geographical and cultural base whereas
CAM does not. TM is relatively a more rational science. CAM, I think
is devoid of it!

In a developed country like the US, today almost 30 to 40% of the
people prefer CAM, not because they consider it an “alternative” to
modern medicine but because the consumer satisfaction is more and
better in CAM. At the same time when there is a serious critical
health problem they depend on the modern medicine itself. The same
situation prevails in Kerala. The only difference is that there is no
TM in the US, where as in Kerala, it is very much present.
But the current situation of TM in kerala is alarming. Taking Kamilari
for example, the advertisement depicts a regular “club visiting
alcoholic” stating how his “alcohol injured liver” was healed by the
kamilari product. Then you have an elderly physician proclaiming
Kamilari as a blessing to all “alcoholics”! The message is clear. With
each peg, take a kamilari and you’ll be saved!!!
This reminds me of another such ad a few years back. The Himalaya
liv52 tablet was also so advertised. “Alcohol”, “A plate of cashew
nuts” and the “liv52 tablets” were pictured in the same frame.
Liv52 then went on become the highest selling medicine in India, among
both ayurvedic and allopathic medicines, encouraged mainly by the
allopathic doctors.
Being an Ayurvedic practitioner myself, I find such ads deeply
upsetting and disturbing, as it is so totally against the basic
Ayurvedic principles.

In the case of liver damage, Ayurveda first and foremost advocates the
stoppage of alcohol intake. It suggests the fresh juice of the
“Phyllanthus niruri” plant (As it’s dry leaves contain a toxic
substance) for its cure along with certain food restrictions
(pathyam). “Phyllanthus niruri” is a traditionally used cure for
hepatitis-A (though Hepatitis-A at times cures itself, I think the
food restrictions pave way for a speedy recovery). Interestingly, now
a lot of research is being done on the use of the same plant as a cure
for Hepatitis-B.

It is such simple treatments that are manipulated by the present
Ayurvedic system in Kerala and presented in a different light. And it
is this “different” light that dawn on the people. It tends to
overshadow the basic science of Ayurveda.

Kerala is an overly medicated state, be it modern medicine or
Ayurveda. In this scenario, the simple treatment methods used in TM
has a lot of potential and some relevance.


Viswanathan P


On Dec 7, 7:42 pm, "v i j a y a n . a . p" <drvijayan...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear Viswanathan P,
>
> Thank you very much for your learned comment on Ayurveda..TM/CAM.
>
> and we are very happy to have a qualified / rational person who
> can  transform our monologues to an effective dialogue.
>

> * WHO position on CAM*. Is it relevant for  Kerala?

>
> How far it is appropriate for an over medicalised  region like Kerala is
> debatable !
>
> What type of changes  in the mortality and morbidity pattern of Kerala
> are  expected by promotion of CAM ?
>
> Or Which are the health problems that need TM/CAM in Kerala ?
>
> Thank you
>

> On 12/7/09, Muralidharan Enarth Maviton <emmur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Dear Viswanathan Chathoth,
> > I did not realize that I was addressing a different Viswanathan, even going
> > to the extent of wondering why  you could have taken an MD in Ayurveda!
> >  But then Dr. Viswanathan P. might be just the person to comment on what I
> > have written on Ayurveda.
>
> > Murali
>

> > 2009/12/7 viswanathan chathoth <visw...@gmail.com>

>
> > Nice to see Viswan's first post to Brights group. As a friend since 1978, I
> >> take the liberty to introduce him to the group:
> >> Dr.P.Viswanathan, presently settled in Hyderabad,  is from
> >> Parassinikkadvu, Kannur, Kerala.He did his B.Sc from SN college, Kannur ;
> >> BAMS from Ayurveda College, Kottakkal; and M.D. (Ay) from Govt.College of
> >> Ayurveda, Hyderabad.Along with his partner in profession and life, Dr.Leena;
> >> he maintains an ethical practice of Ayurveda (a hard act these days!) in the
> >> city of Hyderabad for the last 15 years.
> >> Viswanathan.C.

> >>  2009/12/6 Viswanathan P <viswanp...@gmail.com>

> >>>http://www.who.int/medicines/publications/traditionalpolicy/en/index....

[Harish M Tharayil]

Dear Dr P Viswanathan

I hope u have seen my email send yesterday. Expecting you reply

Bye

2009/12/7 Harish M Tharayil <drhar...@gmail.com>

[Sashikumar kurup]

I had experienced the same identity sustitution that many seem to have
experienced. I actually thought Viswan C was highlighting a common
tendency when it was mentioned that he had obtained an MD in Ayurveda,
that of obtaining degrees through correspondence courses ! My profound
apologies to Viswan P. I take this as an opportunity to clear my
doubts regarding his field of expertise. Ayurveda had atleast some
success in trating ailments, else it may not have survived thousands
of years as a significant player in the wellness arena. I feel that
ayurveda may find itself wanting, with the changes in the disease
profile over generations. Ayurveda must have produced spectacular
responses during the times when nutritional deficiencies, and the
consequent reduction in immunity with it's attendant maladies, were
the prime ailments of an impoverished population. I notice that most
of the ayurvedic preparations are extremely nutrient rich. With the
disease profile changing, and in many cases nutrient excess is the
cause of illnesses, successful results may not be forthcoming to the
extent as in the times of penury and deprivation. I am sure that if
we were to treat children with marasmus or kwashiorkor with the
traditional ayurvedic preparations, dramatic improvements can be
expected even in these modern times.This is just a theory, and not an
expert opinion......sashi

>>> * WHO position on CAM*. Is it relevant for Kerala?

[R Sundaram]

Dear All

I have been following this  engaging debate on "sweet solution" for diabetes which has triggered discussions about complementary medicinal cures ranging from Ayurved to Homeopathy. Perhaps somone in the know can throw some light on the work done by Foundation For Revitalisation of Local Health Tradtions in Banglaore with  a star studded governing council and a gallaxy of directors from the Knowledge Commission like Sam Pitroda, and Vedic Scholar Bhargavi Ammal Their website www.frlht.org.in does not seem to be updated after 2003. Perhaps, They can be approached to investigate Dr Prasad's cure for diabetes.

Love and Regards
R.Sundaram
Flat C1 22 (O) 55 (N) Rajasekaran Street
Mylapore
600004
Phone 044-42018538

2009/12/8 Sashikumar kurup <sashiku...@gmail.com>

[viswanathan chathoth]

>Ayurveda must have produced spectacular
responses during the times when nutritional deficiencies, and the

consequent reduction in immunity with it's attendant maladies were

the prime ailments of an impoverished population.

Sorry Sashi, I think this is just another  misconception regarding the scholastic medical tradition named Ayurveda. In the form that it is handed down to us, it is a far cry from "medicine for the people". Ashtangahridayam, for example,says: "Medical science, it is taught, has four foundations: the doctor, the substances, the nurse , and the patient.Each of these has four qualities." About patient, it says: ""the patient is wealthy, obedient to the physician, informative, and has endurance"
Probably it is not entirely justifiable to consider classic ayurveda represented by the Samhithas to be the sole representative of Indian traditional medicine, but that is a different subject..

Viswanathan.C, Ottapalam.

2009/12/8 Sashikumar kurup <sashiku...@gmail.com>

[Muralidharan Enarth Maviton]

Dear Sundaram, 

The FRLHT in my opinion has done far more good in conservation of some rare medicinal plant species and more importantly their habitat, than in improving the health of people. Their establishment of Medicinal Plant Conservation Areas ( MPCA's) in different forest areas in south India with the involvement of the Forest Department and scientific research organisations was an useful exercise. They also collected and published  a lot of information on  herbal home remedies and the like, the benefits of which is debatable.

And the people, NGO's have on their Board, is one way  to  attract funding!

Murali

2009/12/8 R Sundaram <sundar...@gmail.com>

[Viswanathan P]

Dear Harish,

Sorry for the delay! 
To answer your questions.

1) About BAMS course needing 5 years. Well, I happen to think 5 years
aren’t enough.
The course covers almost the entire MBBS syllabus (except for
biochemistry and pharmacology) along with the Ayurvedic samhitas. The
suggested text books are the same as in MBBS. Each subject has a
clinical training too. In case of surgery there’s 6 month training in
a district hospital. The books suggested for this are “Manual of
clinical surgery” and “A practical guide on operative surgery” both by
Das. For such a vast syllabus, I think 5 years is definitely
justified.

2) Coming to the research. I don’t think any of the research being
conducted in India irrespective of the stream, is of international
standards. The lack of infrastructure and faculty is to blame.
However, CCIM has research units for Ayurveda in many places in India.
But the clinical studies there are limited. Research is being
conducted at “National institute of Ayurveda, Jaipur”, “Jamnagar
Ayurvedic University” and by “The Faculty of Ayurveda, BHU”. I’m not
really aware of them but as far as I know, the standards there are the
same as that of any other Indian university.
On the other hand, Kottakkal Arya Vaidya Sala along with IICT,
Hyderabad is carrying out a serious study of standardization of
Ayurvedic medicine. Such a study is necessary to boost the global
market for Ayurveda and so the government is very encouraging about
it! Reason - Financial experts have predicted that in the coming
decade, herbal medicine will be biggest source of export income,
second to only the software industry.
The “Drug Research Center” in Lucknow (which is under CSIR) is also
studying the various Ayurvedic drugs.

3) About Ayurvedic Specialists being spread all over the electronic
media, you are right. I don’t think much about those television
programs. Most of the time, they are aired only as a marketing
strategy.
But then I do think it’s very nice of them to use scientific words to
explain the etiology, pathology etc. How else can they? “Vatam”,
“Pitham”, “Kapham” might make sense to my elders, but it definitely
wont to my daughter who’s not used to such terminology. It is the same
way as how tools used centuries ago, how much ever efficient, are not
relevant today when there are better tools available.
And determining whether the subjective claims are rational or not, is
a very easy task!

Viswanathan P, Hyderabad.

On Dec 7, 10:21 pm, Harish M Tharayil <drharis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Viswanathans,
> I too had some identity confusion and now only could realize that there are
> two of you by the same name. It is good to have a qualified Ayurverdic
> specialist among us.
> Dear Dr Viswanathan (Ay)
> I have to ask a few questions to you.
> 1) Do you think that BAMS course should have the same duration as MBBS ? I
> think it was more out of the need to give equal status to both degrees that
> BAMS (which was launched much later than MBBS) was made to have the same
> duration. Or is it actually needed ?
> 2) Can you please explain the kind of research that is taking place in your
> field, especially studies regarding the effectiveness of medications ?
> 3) Now a days it is quite common to see Ayurvedic specialists  in TV shows /
> print media. They talk eloquently on various diseases. But they never use
> the usual Ayurvedic  terms like Vat, Pitta, Kapha etc while explaining the
> diseases. Instead they use all the terms used by scientific medicine to
> explain etiology, pathology etc. But when they  reach the section on
> treatment they suddenly switch over to Ayurvedic / Other system terms. But
> they never give clear evidence other than subjective claims. Do you agree
> with such methods ? What is your opinion on the above issues ?
> Thanking you in anticipation
> Bye
>

> 2009/12/7 v i j a y a n . a . p <drvijayan...@gmail.com>

>
>
>
> > Dear Viswanathan P,
>
> > Thank you very much for your learned comment on Ayurveda..TM/CAM.
>
> > and we are very happy to have a qualified / rational person who
> > can  transform our monologues to an effective dialogue.
>

> > * WHO position on CAM*. Is it relevant for  Kerala?

>
> > How far it is appropriate for an over medicalised  region like Kerala is
> > debatable !
>
> > What type of changes  in the mortality and morbidity pattern of Kerala
> > are  expected by promotion of CAM ?
>
> > Or Which are the health problems that need TM/CAM in Kerala ?
>
> > Thank you
>

> > On 12/7/09, Muralidharan Enarth Maviton <emmur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Dear Viswanathan Chathoth,
> >> I did not realize that I was addressing a different Viswanathan, even
> >> going to the extent of wondering why  you could have taken an MD in
> >> Ayurveda!    But then Dr. Viswanathan P. might be just the person to comment
> >> on what I have written on Ayurveda.
>
> >> Murali
>

> >> 2009/12/7 viswanathan chathoth <visw...@gmail.com>

>
> >> Nice to see Viswan's first post to Brights group. As a friend since 1978,
> >>> I take the liberty to introduce him to the group:
> >>> Dr.P.Viswanathan, presently settled in Hyderabad,  is from
> >>> Parassinikkadvu, Kannur, Kerala.He did his B.Sc from SN college, Kannur ;
> >>> BAMS from Ayurveda College, Kottakkal; and M.D. (Ay) from Govt.College of
> >>> Ayurveda, Hyderabad.Along with his partner in profession and life, Dr.Leena;
> >>> he maintains an ethical practice of Ayurveda (a hard act these days!) in the
> >>> city of Hyderabad for the last 15 years.
> >>> Viswanathan.C.

> >>>  2009/12/6 Viswanathan P <viswanp...@gmail.com>

> >>>>http://www.who.int/medicines/publications/traditionalpolicy/en/index....

[Viswanathan P]

Dear Viswan,
When you talked about the four qualities of a patient,
you’ve deciphered “aaddya” as “wealthy”. “Aaddya” actually had another
meaning too, that being “a person who constantly meditates”. In this
context it basically means “having a strong will to cure the
disease”.
Reference: “Amarakosham – Vachaspathi T.C.Parameshwaran Moose”! 

Viswan, Hyd.

On Dec 8, 9:29 pm, viswanathan chathoth <visw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Ayurveda must have produced spectacular
>
> responses during the times when nutritional deficiencies, and the
> consequent reduction in immunity with it's attendant maladies were
> the prime ailments of an impoverished population.
> Sorry Sashi, I think this is just another  misconception regarding the
> scholastic medical tradition named Ayurveda. In the form that it is handed
> down to us, it is a far cry from "medicine for the people".
> Ashtangahridayam, for example,says: "Medical science, it is taught, has four
> foundations: the doctor, the substances, the nurse , and the patient.Each of

> these has four qualities." About patient, it says: ""the patient is *wealthy
> *, obedient to the physician, informative, and has endurance"

> Probably it is not entirely justifiable to consider classic ayurveda
> represented by the Samhithas to be the sole representative of Indian
> traditional medicine, but that is a different subject..
>
> Viswanathan.C, Ottapalam.
>

> 2009/12/8 Sashikumar kurup <sashikumarku...@gmail.com>

>
>
>
>
>
> > I had experienced the same identity sustitution that many seem to have
> > experienced. I actually thought Viswan C was highlighting a common
> > tendency when it was mentioned that he had obtained an MD in Ayurveda,
> > that of obtaining degrees through correspondence courses ! My profound
> > apologies to Viswan P. I take this as an opportunity to clear my
> > doubts regarding his field of expertise. Ayurveda had atleast some
> > success in trating ailments, else it may not have survived thousands
> > of years as a significant player in the wellness arena. I feel that
> > ayurveda may find itself wanting, with the changes in the disease
> > profile over generations. Ayurveda must have produced spectacular
> > responses during the times when nutritional deficiencies, and the
> > consequent reduction in immunity with it's attendant maladies, were
> > the prime ailments of an impoverished population. I notice that most
> > of the ayurvedic preparations are extremely nutrient rich. With the
> > disease profile changing, and in many cases nutrient excess is the
> > cause of illnesses, successful results may not be forthcoming to the
> > extent as in  the times of penury  and deprivation. I am sure that if
> > we were to treat children with marasmus or kwashiorkor with the
> > traditional ayurvedic preparations, dramatic improvements can be
> > expected even in these modern times.This is just a theory, and  not an
> > expert opinion......sashi
>

> > On 08/12/2009, Harish M Tharayil <drharis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Dear Dr P Viswanathan
> > > I hope u have seen my email send yesterday. Expecting you reply
> > > Bye
>

> > > 2009/12/7 Harish M Tharayil <drharis...@gmail.com>

> > >> 2009/12/7 v i j a y a n . a . p <drvijayan...@gmail.com>

>
> > >> Dear Viswanathan P,
>
> > >>> Thank you very much for your learned comment on Ayurveda..TM/CAM.
>
> > >>> and we are very happy to have a qualified / rational person who
> > >>> can  transform our monologues to an effective dialogue.
>
> > >>> * WHO position on CAM*. Is it relevant for  Kerala?
>
> > >>> How far it is appropriate for an over medicalised  region like Kerala
> > is
> > >>> debatable !
>
> > >>> What type of changes  in the mortality and morbidity pattern of Kerala
> > >>> are  expected by promotion of CAM ?
>
> > >>> Or Which are the health problems that need TM/CAM in Kerala ?
>
> > >>> Thank you
>

> > >>> On 12/7/09, Muralidharan Enarth Maviton <emmur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >>>> Dear Viswanathan Chathoth,
> > >>>> I did not realize that I was addressing a different Viswanathan, even
> > >>>> going to the extent of wondering why  you could have taken an MD in
> > >>>> Ayurveda!    But then Dr. Viswanathan P. might be just the person to
> > >>>> comment
> > >>>> on what I have written on Ayurveda.
>
> > >>>> Murali
>

> > >>>> 2009/12/7 viswanathan chathoth <visw...@gmail.com>

>
> > >>>> Nice to see Viswan's first post to Brights group. As a friend since
> > >>>> 1978,
> > >>>>> I take the liberty to introduce him to the group:
> > >>>>> Dr.P.Viswanathan, presently settled in Hyderabad,  is from
> > >>>>> Parassinikkadvu, Kannur, Kerala.He did his B.Sc from SN college,
> > Kannur
> > >>>>> ;
> > >>>>> BAMS from Ayurveda College, Kottakkal; and M.D. (Ay) from
> > Govt.College
> > >>>>> of
> > >>>>> Ayurveda, Hyderabad.Along with his partner in profession and life,
> > >>>>> Dr.Leena;
> > >>>>> he maintains an ethical practice of Ayurveda (a hard act these days!)
> > >>>>> in the
> > >>>>> city of Hyderabad for the last 15 years.
> > >>>>> Viswanathan.C.

> > >>>>>  2009/12/6 Viswanathan P <viswanp...@gmail.com>

> >http://www.who.int/medicines/publications/traditionalpolicy/en/index....

>
> > >>>>>> Traditional Medicine(TM) and Complementary and Alternative medicine
> > >>>>>> (CAM) cannot be seen in the same light. TM is something that was
> > >>>>>> developed along with the human civilization as was the food we eat
> > >>>>>> today. Clearly it’s the trial and error method that has been
> > followed.
> > >>>>>> Only drugs that are safe and effective are passed on to the coming
> > >>>>>> generations. So, people assume the drugs existing today are
> > relatively
> > >>>>>> safe. All the same if a medicine that is more effective and safe is
> > >>>>>> discovered, the traditional ayurvedic drugs are gladly abandoned by
> > >>>>>> ayurvedic practitioners themselves. For example, in the book written
> > >>>>>> by P.S.Varrier (the founder of Kottakkal Arya Vaidya Sala), though
> > he
> > >>>>>> has discussed the traditional cure for rabies, he has advocated the
> > >>>>>> use of modern medicine for it, as it is a better cure. But earlier,
> > it
> > >>>>>> wouldn’t happen as the physicians were dogmatic.
> > >>>>>> This broad minded perspective is the result of the study of modern
> > >>>>>> science along with ayurveda. And this is exactly what the CCIM hopes
> > >>>>>> to achieve with the introduction of BAMS and MD courses in ayurveda.
>
> > >>>>>> The syllabus also
>

[v i j a y a n . a . p]

Dear Viswanathan,

 

 

          Your  statement on  the statistics of CAM preference in US is correct...Public health experts percieve it as a problem than a solution for the existing health problems.

 

        As you said in your first response TM practictioners  prescribe  drugs the efficacy /side effects/drug interactions/safety in pregnacy/pediatric practice etc  are not known to the TM or doctors  . Is it acceptable for our patients ?.

Are we not putting our uninformed patients at risk of recieving a treatment inferier to the availble standard treatment ? Cant it be a costly experiment as many illness need early diagnosis and optimum treatment ?

 

I hope you were aware of the tragic death of a cancer patient ..a student of University Calicut who fell prey to claims of a self proclaimed CAM practictioner... The situation is not very different in US.

 

The much heard story of Mrs Fasch,US,  testify that ..She had rectal cancer — potentially curable earlier on — had invaded bones, tissue, muscle, skin. Flasch had sought a natural cure. Instead, a deadly disease ran its natural course. 

Some people who try unproven remedies risk only money. But people with cancer can lose their only chance of beating the disease by skipping conventional treatment or by mixing in other therapies. Even harmless-sounding vitamins and "natural" supplements can interfere with cancer medicines or affect hormones that help cancer grow.

Yet they are extremely popular with cancer patients, who crave control over their disease and want to do everything they can to be healthy — emotional needs that make them vulnerable to deceptive claims. Studies estimate that 60 percent of cancer patients try unconventional remedies and about 40 percent take vitamin or dietary supplements, which do not have to be proved safe or effective and are not approved by the federal Food and Drug Administration.

None has turned out to be a cure, although some show promise for easing symptoms. Touch therapies, mind-body approaches and acupuncture may reduce stress and relieve pain, nausea, dry mouth and possibly hot flashes.Many hospitals offer aromatherapy, massage, meditation, yoga and acupuncture because patients want them .At the other end of the spectrum are quacks selling fringe therapies and supplements through testimonials, not proof. Laetrile, "detoxifying" coffee enemas, shark cartilage — the miracle cures change but the bogus claims remain the same.

In US about 7 percent of cancer patients go straight to an alternative approach, sometimes traveling to Mexico, the Bahamas or a "spa" in Europe for treatments not allowed in the United States, investigations found. Most cancers spread slowly, so people can be temporarily fooled into thinking herbs or special diets are keeping it at bay.

With diseases like cancer, you get one chance. By the time they get back to a reasonable advice, they're dead. Nothing can be done for them.

Ways that supplements and fringe therapies can harm:

Financially. Pills that seem cheap actually cost a lot if they are worthless or are bought in place of real medicine, fresh fruits and vegetables, or other things known to boost health.

Medically. Trying an alternative remedy can delay the time until a patient receives an effective treatment, allowing the cancer to spread. A potentially curable cancer may become untreatable — 

Physically. Supplements, even those claimed to be natural, have biological effects and can interact dangerously with a wide array of medicines.

Psychologically. Futile treatment raises false hope and deprives people of the chance to prepare for the end of life and die in dignity and comfort.

.Examples of potential harm:

Vitamin E can prolong bleeding time and has forced cancellation or delay of cancer surgeries; some studies suggest it may raise the risk of certain cancers.

Beta carotene, a precursor of vitamin A, may raise smokers' risk of developing lung cancer.

Folic acid supplements may raise the risk for precancerous growths in the colon.

Vitamin C in large doses may help cancer cells resist chemo and radiation.

Herbals and dietary supplements can undermine cancer treatments in ways that patients can't feel and doctors can't measure. When a treatment fails, it's impossible to say whether it was due to the person's cancer or because a supplement subtly interfered.

"We know that there's some harm going on. We just don't know the magnitude of it," said Dr. Jeffrey White, the National Cancer Institute's complementary and alternative medicine chief.

Unaware of dangers
Studies show that as many as two-thirds of cancer patients who use unproven remedies do not tell their doctors. Sometimes it is because they fear disapproval, but often they do not realize this can harm their care.

 

shall contiue

 

 

Thank you,

 

drvijayan.ap

[viswanathan chathoth]

>“Aaddya” actually had another
meaning too, that being “a person who constantly meditates”. In this
context it basically means “having a strong will to cure the
disease”.
Reference: “Amarakosham – Vachaspathi T.C.Parameshwaran Moose”!

Dear Viswan,
I was quoting from Domink Wujastyk's translation , which says "wealthy'. Right now, i don't have any other translation of Ashtangahridaya  with me. Will look up that point later.
This is how I understand the situation:
With the long history and multiple redactors , all sorts of 'alien'  ideas have entered even into the earliest classics, as was shown by Chattopadhyaya, as well as Zysk. Much  changed when the medicine of the Buddhist Sangha  was recast into a brahminic Shastra.
In the specific case of 'wealthy' patient, I am aware that the the earlier classic, Charaka Samhitha, do not have this stipulation. "Good memory, obedience, fearlessness and uninhibited expression-these are the four qualities of a patient"-says Charaka Samhitha.

Who were the people involved in maintaining the scholastic tradition? Very likely, those who can afford to do so. For example, see this comment on Ashtangahridaya: "....the Chinese pilgrim I-Tsing, who travelled in India from AD 672 to 688, said that it had only recently been composed, and that: All physicians in the five parts of India practice according to this book, and any physician who is well versed in it never fails to live by the official pay."
My feeling is that it is not unlikely that the word 'aaddya' was used to mean 'rich'.
Viswanathan.C, Ottapalam

2009/12/9 Viswanathan P <viswa...@gmail.com>

[Sashikumar kurup]

Dear Vish C , I think I made the mistake of using the word Ayurveda in
my post to wich you replied. I meant it in a loose manner, maybe TM
was the word I should have used. I considered Ayurveda as coming under
the broad range of TMs, only that this was peculoar to the Indian
culture and indicated by a sanskrit name. Other cultures might call
their TMs by other names. Ayurveda could be considered a variety of
traditional medicine practised by the upper classes, because it has
only tradition to back it,either written or oral. It's efficacy cannot
be proved or verified in an independent manner using impersonal
techniques, without reference to traditional books, whose conclusions
are taken as a given. Thus it does not meet the criteria of a modern
science, in any respect ( nor does it claim to be so, it has to be
admitted ). I had not read much on ayurveda, but it was my impression
that the treatment a debilitated villager in india recieved in the
olden times could be considered as ayurvedic in mature. Thanks for
pointing out the difference. It could have been some products peculiar
to that area that was used for treatment by the villagers, and not
something prescribed by a man well versed in the ayurvedic texts.
Anyway how would a poor Dalit or a Shudra access an ayurvedic
physician during those times ?!........sashi

On 09/12/2009, viswanathan chathoth <vis...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>“Aaddya” actually had another
> meaning too, that being “a person who constantly meditates”. In this
> context it basically means “having a strong will to cure the
> disease”.
> Reference: “Amarakosham – Vachaspathi T.C.Parameshwaran Moose”!
>
> Dear Viswan,
> I was quoting from Domink Wujastyk's translation , which says "wealthy'.
> Right now, i don't have any other translation of Ashtangahridaya with me.
> Will look up that point later.
> This is how I understand the situation:
> With the long history and multiple redactors , all sorts of 'alien' ideas
> have entered even into the earliest classics, as was shown by
> Chattopadhyaya, as well as Zysk. Much changed when the medicine of the
> Buddhist Sangha was recast into a brahminic Shastra.
> In the specific case of 'wealthy' patient, I am aware that the the earlier
> classic, Charaka Samhitha, do not have this stipulation. "Good memory,
> obedience, fearlessness and uninhibited expression-these are the four
> qualities of a patient"-says Charaka Samhitha.
>
> Who were the people involved in maintaining the scholastic tradition? Very
> likely, those who can afford to do so. For example, see this comment on
> Ashtangahridaya: "....the Chinese pilgrim I-Tsing, who travelled in India
> from AD 672 to 688, said that it had only recently been composed, and that:

> *All physicians in the five parts of India practice according to this book,

> and any physician who is well versed in it never fails to live by the

> official pay*."

[Anand Nair]

The discussion on Traditional Medicine (TM) and Complementary & Alternate Medicine (CAM) is getting to be interesting. It is good that we have at least once person who person -- Viswanathan P -- who is batting for TM (Ayurveda).

I record my comments on VP's main arguments in favour of Ayurveda:-

a) In developing countries like India 75% of the people still depend on traditional medicine (and because of this WHO has recommended introducing formal Ayurvedic degrees on par with MBBS). The main reasons for this widespread dependence (as identified by VP) are “accessibility” and “affordability”.

I feel this aspect needs to addressed by improving the “accessibility” and “affordability”  of modern medicine (unless there are independent arguments in favour of TM/ CAM; and against modern medicine). 

I would prefer an approach where the government spends on more modern medical colleges, thus lowering the cut-off thresholds for admission to the the basic MBBS courses, de-commercialisation of medical education, on a nationalised health system and so on.

b) TM is something that was developed along with the human civilization as was the food we eat today -- and has thus already been subjected to selection through "trial and error method". Only drugs that are safe and effective are passed on to the coming generations.

I would think that the emergence of modern medicine is the RESULT of this continuum of "trial and error method"! Do we need to pass on TM/ CAM to the coming generations -- in view of the cumulative human experience in medical care? That is what we are debating here!

c) If a medicine that is more effective and safe is discovered, the traditional ayurvedic drugs are gladly abandoned by ayurvedic practitioners themselves.

VP agreed that this is true (today) only in case of a few practitioners of Ayurveda, such as Dr. P.S.Varrier, the founder of Kottakkal Arya Vaidya Sala. More Ayurvedic practitioners ought to imbibe this spirit of "abandoning" old methods in the face of newer discoveries and medical insights.

What is significant is that this "spirit" (of regarding traditional knowledge as temporary, and contingent) is the very essence of modern science -- and of the system of medicine based upon this. 

I have no doubt that if any Ayurvedic drug (of treatment strategy) can pass the rigorous tests of efficacy and safety, modern medicine would readily incorporate this. This acceptance of TM medicines and techniques by modern medicine would be systemic -- and not dependent on the attitudes of individual doctors.

d) Academic recognition of TM/ CAM will (hopefully) result in a trend towards safety, quality and rational use. This broad minded perspective is the result of the study of modern science along with ayurveda.

What we can hope for is that TM would merge with modern medicine -- when the latter accepts the good aspects of the former (after due diligence, of course).

To quote partially from Viswanathan P, "In today’s scientifically advanced situation, it is a very easy task to study a drug in detail. If it is done in Ayurveda too,..."

If such validation becomes routine and systemic, then Ayurveda and Modern Medicine will have become indistinguishable!

Anand

[viswanathan chathoth]

Dear Viswan,
I got K.R.S. Murthy's translation of Ashtangahridyam today. It says: "The patient should be wealthy, obedient to the physician,having good memory (capable of remembering and explaining events connected with probable causes,symptoms etc.) and of strong will. (capable of withstanding strain of therapies etc.)"

Viswanathan.C, Ottapalam

2009/12/9 viswanathan chathoth <vis...@gmail.com>

[Viswanathan P]

Dear Viswan,

I agree with you that it’s very possible that it was only the wealthy
who could afford the scholastic tradition. Also in almost all of the
Malayalam texts, “addya” was given to mean “wealthy”. But I have a
vague memory of a contradiction. It was either during a discussion
with Dr.Agnivesh (I’m sure you remember him!!) or in the book
“Ashtanaga Sangraha: Moola Sidhantham” by Raghavan Tirumulpat. I had
the book with me, but it got misplaced, so I’m unable to verify!

Coming to the quote by the Chinese traveler, I somehow cannot buy it.
Ashtangahridaya was a book that was looked up in Kerala. Ayurvedic
treatment in Kerala was based on purely that one book. It was almost a
synonym for “Kerala’s Ayurveda”. North Indian physicians (even the
physicians from the other southern states) never referred the book. I
say that because neither the treatment nor the medicines mentioned in
Ashtangahridaya is used in those places. So about “All physicians in
the five parts of India practicing according to this book”, I doubt
it.

Viswan P

On Dec 9, 7:41 am, viswanathan chathoth <visw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >“Aaddya” actually had another
>
> meaning too, that being “a person who constantly meditates”. In this
> context it basically means “having a strong will to cure the
> disease”.
> Reference: “Amarakosham – Vachaspathi T.C.Parameshwaran Moose”!
>
> Dear Viswan,
> I was quoting from Domink Wujastyk's translation , which says "wealthy'.
> Right now, i don't have any other translation of Ashtangahridaya  with me.
> Will look up that point later.
> This is how I understand the situation:
> With the long history and multiple redactors , all sorts of 'alien'  ideas
> have entered even into the earliest classics, as was shown by
> Chattopadhyaya, as well as Zysk. Much  changed when the medicine of the
> Buddhist Sangha  was recast into a brahminic Shastra.
> In the specific case of 'wealthy' patient, I am aware that the the earlier
> classic, Charaka Samhitha, do not have this stipulation. "Good memory,
> obedience, fearlessness and uninhibited expression-these are the four
> qualities of a patient"-says Charaka Samhitha.
>
> Who were the people involved in maintaining the scholastic tradition? Very
> likely, those who can afford to do so. For example, see this comment on
> Ashtangahridaya: "....the Chinese pilgrim I-Tsing, who travelled in India
> from AD 672 to 688, said that it had only recently been composed, and that:

> *All physicians in the five parts of India practice according to this book,

> and any physician who is well versed in it never fails to live by the

> official pay*."

> My feeling is that it is not unlikely that the word 'aaddya' was used to
> mean 'rich'.
> Viswanathan.C, Ottapalam
>

> 2009/12/9 Viswanathan P <viswanp...@gmail.com>

[viswanathan chathoth]

> Ayurveda could be considered a variety of
traditional medicine practised by the upper classes, because it has

only tradition to back it,either written or oral.It's efficacy cannot

be proved or verified in an independent manner using impersonal
techniques, without reference to traditional books, whose conclusions
are taken as a given.

Dear Sashi,
In  "Knowledge and the Scholarly medical traditions", edited by Don Bates, Galenic, Chinese, and Ayurvedic traditions-"traditions having one thing in common:scholarship"- are discussed. Bates says: " What makes comparison seem promising is that the knowing involved has certain characteristics in common.First, all these scholarly healers ...rest their claims to healing power largely on knowledge which is grounded in the study of written texts. They are not shamans,craftsmen, wise women, bonesetters nor folk healers. For the most part they do not claim to get medical knowledge through direct revelation, mystical experience, simple trial and error, nor even through mere apprenticeship, however much apprenticeship may also be involved.They are all scholars of literate traditions"
Viswanathan.C. Ottapalam.

2009/12/9 Sashikumar kurup <sashiku...@gmail.com>

[viswanathan chathoth]

>Ashtangahridaya was a book that was looked up in Kerala. Ayurvedic
treatment in Kerala was based on purely that one book. It was almost a
synonym for “Kerala’s Ayurveda”.

Dear Viswan,
Still the link with money and traditional scholarly tradition of  medicine remains visible..  Kunjan Nambiar's  adage: "Vaidyam padikkanam dravyamundaakkuvaan"  (To make money, Study medicine!) :-)
 For non-Keralites: Kunjan Nambiar(1705-1770), celebrated poet of Kerala is famous  for his pithy comments on the society of his time.

Viswanathan.C. Ottapalam

2009/12/9 Viswanathan P <viswa...@gmail.com>

[Sashikumar kurup]

Dear Viswan C, I did not mean to equate qll traditional medicine
practitioners with charlatans. Nevertheless ayurveda is based on
tradition, let's say literate tradition as you explained, and so is a
variety of Traditional medicine, since it draws on traditional and
statist knowledge as opposed to contemporary medicine. Hence it is
subject to the same limitations of any field of statist knowledge, but
ayurveda can benefit from the research efforts of friends like
Viswan P to make it a stream of medicine with contemporary
value.....sashi

On 09/12/2009, viswanathan chathoth <vis...@gmail.com> wrote:

>>Ashtangahridaya was a book that was looked up in Kerala. Ayurvedic
> treatment in Kerala was based on purely that one book. It was almost a
> synonym for “Kerala’s Ayurveda”.
> Dear Viswan,
> Still the link with money and traditional scholarly tradition of medicine
> remains visible.. Kunjan Nambiar's adage: "Vaidyam padikkanam

> dravyamundaakkuvaan" (To make money, *Study* medicine!) :-)

[viswanathan chathoth]

>I did not mean to equate qll traditional medicine
practitioners with charlatans

Sure, Sasi. I was just elaborating the idea you presented, with a prop from Bates.
V

2009/12/9 Sashikumar kurup <sashiku...@gmail.com>

[Viswanathan P]

Dear Viwan,

>>Still the link with money and traditional scholarly tradition of medicine

remains visible. Kunjan Nambiar's adage: "Vaidyam padikkanam
dravyamundaakkuvaan". (To make money, *Study* medicine!) :-)

That was a good one!!! I think its better you change gears and switch
to writing as profession. 

Viswan P.

On Dec 9, 6:02 pm, viswanathan chathoth <visw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Ashtangahridaya was a book that was looked up in Kerala. Ayurvedic
>
> treatment in Kerala was based on purely that one book. It was almost a
> synonym for “Kerala’s Ayurveda”.
> Dear Viswan,
> Still the link with money and traditional scholarly tradition of  medicine
> remains visible..  Kunjan Nambiar's  adage: "Vaidyam padikkanam

> dravyamundaakkuvaan"  (To make money, *Study* medicine!) :-)

>  For non-Keralites: Kunjan Nambiar(1705-1770), celebrated poet of Kerala is
> famous  for his pithy comments on the society of his time.
>
> Viswanathan.C. Ottapalam
>

> 2009/12/9 Viswanathan P <viswanp...@gmail.com>

[viswanathan chathoth]

>That was a good one!!! I think its better you change gears and switch
to writing as profession.

Dear Viswan,
Just around the age for midlife crisis, both of us...Having a spare profession in hand is a pretty good idea :-)
Viswan C

2009/12/10 Viswanathan P <viswa...@gmail.com>

[Viswanathan P]

Dear Friends,

<<Quoting from Murali’s article on “Modernizing Ayurveda – Prospects
for Biotechnology” - “Looking at the issue from the point of view of
modern scientific methods, Ayurveda needs an immediate and extensive
reorientation to gain scientific credibility. From a rich knowledge
base in the form of oral tradition and scriptures, it needs to
transform into a dynamic, constantly validated and evolving scientific
discipline. But then there is the possibility of Ayurveda losing its
identity and merging with indistinguishably with modern science to the
advantage of the latter.”

<< “If such validation becomes routine and systemic, then Ayurveda and
Modern
Medicine will have become indistinguishable!” – So written by
Mr.Anand.

I truly agree with it. If Ayurveda is explained and explored with the
theory of modern medicine then they will be indistinguishable.
Then the question is why people prefer Ayurveda. I think the people
who relate to Ayurveda can be grouped into three categories.
1) Three fourth of the population who stay in villages and are
relatively poor. They prefer Ayurveda mainly because of its
“affordability” and “accessibility” and “familiarity” as I have stated
previously.
2) Then there are these fundamentalists who propagate ayurveda as a
mystic science. They do it not because they believe in it but because
it earns them easy money. For example, people like Sri Sri Sri Ravi
Shankar, Ramdev etc.
3) Lastly you have the rational ones, who like to think scientific.
They prefer ayurveda because it is simple, natural, holistic and also
because it has a “human touch”. Modern medicine, on the other hand,
they think is aggressive. There was a shocking report in the news the
other day about how a small girl burnt her hands and was taken to a
hospital. The surgeons there mistook her legs for her hands and cut it
off!! This led to the girl loosing both her hands as well as legs.
This is just not one single incident. There have been many such cases
of horrifying negligence on the part of the aggressive modern medicine
doctors.
In my fifteen years of practice in Hyderabad, I myself have come
across many such incidents. Patients come to me with 3 to 4 files of
their various medical reports. And I take time off to read through the
entire thing. Because I learnt a part of modern medicine in my BAMS
course, I’m able to understand them. Whenever I don’t, Viswan C has
always been a great help!
I think it is over medication that complicates most of the cases,
especially in the case of children. Infectious diseases, cancer, heart
attack cannot be cured by Ayurveda. We are aware of this fact because
we study a part of modern science. But simple day to day diseases can
be cured by simple treatment and proper food regulation and sincere
following of the do’s and don’ts. Instead if patients are prescribed
antibiotic cycles every month and also an antihistamine every day then
they will definitely look for another option.

Despite being surrounded by controversies and humiliation, Ayurvedic
ways still survives. This itself is proof enough that there are valid
reasons for it. As long as poor people exist in our country, so will
Ayurveda. And until and unless modern medicine practitioners opens
their eyes and sees a patient as a human being, Ayurveda will
definitely be preferred. Then incidents such as what happened to that
small girl will not occur!

I have a clinic in the outskirts (a distant 25kms) of the Hyderabad
city. It is actually the border between the highly developed metro and
a typical rural village. So I’ve patients coming from both sides. And
the sartorially elegant professional sits next to a villager in a
dhoti (R.K. Lakshman’s common man!!). Both need treatment.
The former is fed up of the continuous cycle of antibiotics. He has a
persistent head ache and has spent tens of thousands of rupees in MRI
scans and other examinations in corporate hospitals. When I questioned
him, he told me he takes a head bath three times a day and also
applies “navratna hair oil” (which is advertised by a superstar) every
night. All this to cool his “work heated” head!! I asked him to stop
both and weeks later he came back smiling and told me he was fine. No
more head ache!!!
The latter, however has no money to spend in the corporate hospitals.
So, he is treated by a school drop out RMP in his locality who has no
idea whatsoever of the side effects of the modern medicine pills. Not
only was he looted by the RMP, but almost killed too. Patiently
listening to the helpless man’s complaints and compassionately talking
to him itself relieved his anxieties and made him feel secure. When I
gave him an affordable ayurvedic medicine, he was happy. So was I,
because, maybe it won’t cure him completely but it definitely wouldn’t
kill him. Interestingly, the RMP also came to see me. He wanted
treatment too. He had allergic dermatitis on his fingers, which he
said was a result of the 300 to 500 injections he gave every day using
a plastic syringe. The enormity of his “treatment” scared the hell out
of me!!!

After my consultation there when I drive back to my city home late at
night, I’m content and satisfied and pleased that I choose this system
for my profession. This thought coupled with soothing carnatic music
reminds me of Viswan and our discussions on “social commitment” back
in our college days!

At times I dream about the future. Centuries later, an era when
diabetes, cancer and Alzheimer’s can be cured by a single medicine,
when a person with a broken spinal chord is able to walk in matter of
days, Supercomputers in the consultation room which silently scans the
patient, diagnoses the disease and prescribes the medicine (which may
not even be in the form of pills, but some other new kind), Operations
theatres with robots performing a surgery with 100 times more
precision. All the while, the doctors just supervise sitting in
another room. Even then, there’ll be a patient who being scary of the
highly mechanized, non - human and frightening system, prefers TM (the
present day antibiotics). The doctor might think him to be foolish.
But what he does not realize is the fact that it was those same pills
which cured millions of people centuries ago.

Viswanathan P.

On Dec 9, 10:22 am, Anand Nair <asn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The discussion on Traditional Medicine (TM) and Complementary & Alternate
> Medicine (CAM) is getting to be interesting. It is good that we have at
> least once person who person -- Viswanathan P -- who is batting for TM
> (Ayurveda).
>
> I record my comments on VP's main arguments in favour of Ayurveda:-
>

> *a) In developing countries like India 75% of the people still depend on

> traditional medicine (and because of this WHO has recommended introducing
> formal Ayurvedic degrees on par with MBBS). The main reasons for this
> widespread dependence (as identified by VP) are “accessibility” and

> “affordability”.*

>
> I feel this aspect needs to addressed by improving the “accessibility” and
> “affordability”  of modern medicine (unless there are independent arguments
> in favour of TM/ CAM; and against modern medicine).
>
> I would prefer an approach where the government spends on more modern
> medical colleges, thus lowering the cut-off thresholds for admission to the
> the basic MBBS courses, de-commercialisation of medical education, on a
> nationalised health system and so on.
>

> *b) TM is something that was developed along with the human civilization as

> was the food we eat today -- and has thus already been subjected to
> selection through "trial and error method". Only drugs that are safe and

> effective are passed on to the coming generations.*

>
> I would think that the emergence of modern medicine is the RESULT of this
> continuum of "trial and error method"! Do we need to pass on TM/ CAM to the
> coming generations -- in view of the cumulative human experience in medical
> care? That is what we are debating here!
>

> *c) If a medicine that is more effective and safe is discovered, the

> traditional ayurvedic drugs are gladly abandoned by ayurvedic practitioners

> themselves.*

>
> VP agreed that this is true (today) only in case of a few practitioners of
> Ayurveda, such as Dr. P.S.Varrier, the founder of Kottakkal Arya Vaidya
> Sala. More Ayurvedic practitioners ought to imbibe this spirit of
> "abandoning" old methods in the face of newer discoveries and medical
> insights.
>
> What is significant is that this "spirit" (of regarding traditional
> knowledge as temporary, and contingent) is the very essence of modern
> science -- and of the system of medicine based upon this.
>

> *I have no doubt that if any Ayurvedic drug (of treatment strategy) can pass

> the rigorous tests of efficacy and safety, modern medicine would readily
> incorporate this. This acceptance of TM medicines and techniques by modern
> medicine would be systemic -- and not dependent on the attitudes of

> individual doctors.*
>
> *d) Academic recognition of TM/ CAM will (hopefully) result in a trend

> towards safety, quality and rational use. This broad minded perspective is

> the result of the study of modern science along with ayurveda.*

[ravindranath tk]

Dr. Viswanathan P's narration is overwhelmed with honesty of course. There are some facts in it. But one thing. Is Ayurvedic Medicine cheaper than modern medicines? In my experience  no. T.K. Ravindranath

2009/12/11 Viswanathan P <viswa...@gmail.com>

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[v i j a y a n . a . p]

At times I dream about the future. Centuries later, an era when
diabetes, cancer and Alzheimer’s can be cured by a single medicine,
when a person with a broken spinal chord is able to walk in matter of
days, Supercomputers in the consultation room which silently scans the
patient, diagnoses the disease and prescribes the medicine (which may
not even be in the form of pills, but some other new kind), Operations
theatres with robots performing a surgery with 100 times more
precision. All the while, the doctors just supervise sitting in
another room. Even then, there’ll be a patient who being scary of the
highly mechanized, non - human and frightening system, prefers TM (the
present day antibiotics). The doctor might think him to be foolish.
But what he does not realize is the fact that it was those same pills
which cured millions of people centuries ago.

 

 

True Viswan P.

 

 

Just 30- 35 years ago, Black Yamaha Motor bike with no silencer came as a stranger to our serene and innocent village ..We were excited but afraid of/skeptical of it... we were comfortable with our bullock carts or bare foot walking or small country boats.... we used to travel in the security of the carts/boats with our parents....Bike was foreign and had some thing which made us insecure....few years later on looking back to those bullock carts I have the feeling you described...Cars ad buses are no more strangers to our villagers..

 

THough I love them , bullock carts will never take our villagers to Calicut ,Trivandrum,Madrass,or Delhi..which are very essential in 2009....

with no disrespect for technology or science of past,I recognise the need for appropriate technology for present....we  cannot afford the technology or politics or faiths of old centuries...though we can love/recognise/remember  them with great respect

 

 

 

 we should resist our  natural/ passion /urge to continue to live in the past .unless we have proof for the superiority of a particular technology of the past,,

 

Is my analogy not appropriate?

 

I agree to your point;Todays Doctor will be bullock cart drivers for next generation....no point in inaiating todays same medicine to people of  AD 2200 !

 

 

Thank you

[Anand Nair]

Viswanthan P,

I totally agree that ANY system of medicine:-

a) ought to be affordable and accessible to all.

b) ought to be simple, natural, holistic and needs to be delivered with a “human touch”

c) ought not to be aggressive and insensitive

d) ought to be practiced diligently and non-negligently (must avoid chopping off the wrong limb!)

e) ought to avoid over-medication

f) ought to prefer treatment of simple day to day diseases through proper food regulation, exercise and life-style changes -- rather than prescribe the "strong medicine".

I do not think that any of the above is incompatible with the principles or practice of modern medicine. I do know many practitioners of modern medicine (my cousin, Dr. G Rameshkumar for instance) who diligently and scrupulously adhere to the above principles in their practice of modern medicine. (These principles are inherent to the Hippocratic oath that modern doctors are supposed to take before they start to practice! Refer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath)

I agree that in actual practice, many doctors (of modern medicine) violate the above ideal. You had yourself named two practitioners of TM who too disregard these.

The point that I make is that the above principles are NOT what distinguish ayurveda from modern medicine. 

To me, it is important that ANY system of knowledge must regard "tradition" as temporary and contingent, and must have the ready willingness to revise and abandon tradition, when called upon by new evidence that is available today, or may become available tomorrow. 

This, despite the indisputable fact that parts of the traditional knowledge that we discard now had really served man in a significant way in the past...

Anand

[Viswanathan P]

Dear ravindran tk,

It is true that ayurvedic medicines have become costlier these days,
its only beacuse of the commercialisation of ayurvedic products! But
it is possible even today to prescribe it at a lower cost. The
treatment of the renowmned ayurvedic physician Raghavan Thirumulpad is
a proof to that.

Viswanathan P

On Dec 11, 10:22 am, ravindranath tk <tkravindran...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dr. Viswanathan P's narration is overwhelmed with honesty of course. There
> are some facts in it. But one thing. Is Ayurvedic Medicine cheaper than
> modern medicines? In my experience  no. T.K. Ravindranath
>

> 2009/12/11 Viswanathan P <viswanp...@gmail.com>

[Viswanathan P]

Dear Vijayan, Anand

>>we should resist our natural/ passion /urge to continue to live in the
past .unless we have proof for the superiority of a particular
technology of
the past,,

>>I do not think that any of the above is incompatible with the principles or
practice of modern medicine. I do know many practitioners of modern
medicine

I truly agree with the above. I know the fact that Ayurveda has become
dormant. It is nothing but the rule of nature!!
Here we are discussng the modality of a honourable cremation of a
respectable medical system. But the process is delayed because its
"goodness (the 6 points anand and i mentioned as necessary for any
system of medicine)" is yet to be accomodated in the mordern system.
I'm not saying "it cannot be", but rather that "it is yet to be". This
is the point i want to highlight!

Viswanathan P

On Dec 11, 10:33 am, "v i j a y a n . a . p" <drvijayan...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[Anand Nair]

I have a suggestion for mass healthcare in the Indian context

We should train an army of primary health workers, specifically to treat simple day to day diseases through proper food regulation, exercise and life-style changes. They may be trained in the ayurvedic tradition of soft patient care, and also in the basics of modern medicine.

These "barefoot doctors" can be registered as medical practitioners with the authorisation to prescribe only a few listed drugs (including tested & validated-as-safe ayurvedic formulations).  It is vital that they be made aware of the limitations of traditional medicine for treating certain types of symptoms, and they must possess the skills to recognize and be legally obliged to refer such cases to the specialist (modern medicine). 

Selection of candidates for training on courses for these primary health workers should be aptitude for patient care, rather than academic brilliance as a necessary stipulation.

After putting the above in place, the government may feel more emboldened to vigorously implement The Drugs and Magic Remedies (Objectionable Advertisements) Act, 1954...

Anand

[Sashikumar kurup]

Dear Viswan P, I was recently accosted by the representative of an
ayurvedic company (since you might not know me, let me introduce
myself as a practiding paediatrician ). He presented a slew of drugs,
covering almost all known human diseases ( well, almost, literary
licence taken ). The point was, he showed me that all medicines were
labelled 'free from bhasmas'. I asked him, if bhasmas were a part of
the ancient prescription for a disease, will not the exclusion of a
particular component hinder it's efficacy ? He couldn't tell me
anything else other than that the company exported medicines to the
West, who refused to have anything to do with bhasmas which they have
scientifically analysed to be heavy metals and other such harmful
constituents. Is this 'free from bhasmas' concept the result of any
genuine ayurvedic research, or just a cynical compliance to facilitate
exports ? If it is genuine, then it has implications, because our
population ingest tons of this bhasma-containing medicines every day,
and they should be warned, as should all ayurvedic physicians, about
this danger.......sashi

On 11/12/2009, Anand Nair <asn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have a suggestion for mass healthcare in the Indian context
>
> We should train an army of primary health workers, specifically to treat
> simple day to day diseases through proper food regulation, exercise and
> life-style changes. They may be trained in the ayurvedic tradition of soft

> patient care, *and also in the basics of modern medicine*.

>
> These "barefoot doctors" can be registered as medical practitioners with the
> authorisation to prescribe only a few listed drugs (including tested &

> validated-as-safe ayurvedic formulations). *It is vital that they be made

> aware of the limitations of traditional medicine for treating certain types
> of symptoms, and they must possess the skills to recognize and be legally

> obliged to refer such cases to the specialist (modern medicine)*.

>
> Selection of candidates for training on courses for these primary health
> workers should be aptitude for patient care, rather than academic brilliance
> as a necessary stipulation.
>
> After putting the above in place, the government may feel more emboldened to

> vigorously implement *The **Drugs and Magic Remedies (Objectionable
> Advertisements) Act, 1954*...
>
> Anand
>
> --

>
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> "Brights India" group.

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>
>
>

[viswanathan chathoth]

>The point was, he showed me that all medicines were
labelled 'free from bhasmas'.

Dear Sashi,
Can you please collect samples of some of these packages for me? The issue of claimed non toxicity of Bhasmas is of special interest to me.
Thanks.
Viswanathan.C. Ottapalam

2009/12/11 Sashikumar kurup <sashiku...@gmail.com>

[Viswanathan P]

Dear Sashikumar,

I’m not that well acquainted with bhasmas, as I’ve very rarely used
it. In Kerala’s ayurvedic medicine, especially Kottakkal Arya Vaidya
Sala’s products, only less than 5% are bhasmas. Rest is all herbal!
Rasaoushadhas (metals and minerals processed in herbs) became popular
in 11th century.
Each text book of Rasashastra (text book of Ayurvedic metals and
minerals) describes the toxic effects of metals and minerals when they
are improperly processed and administered. Many of the toxic effects
match the toxic effects of metals described in the modern
pharmacology. Thus it is clear that people in those days were very
much aware about the possible toxicity.
The controversy involving the presence of heavy metals in Ayurvedic
herbal medical products began after a publication of a research paper
in the Journal of American Medical Association (JAMA) on dec 15th,
2004, Vol 292, No. 23. It was basically regarding the heavy metal
content of Ayurvedic Herbal Medicine Products (HMP) being sold in
America. The results have shown that 14 of the 70 HMPs studied
contained heavy metals like lead, arsenic and mercury above the
recommended standards of US pharmacopeia. The subject is of great
economic importance especially to third world countries as most of the
herbal medicine manufacturers are based in these countries. It is to
counter this that manufacturers introduced “bhasmas free” medicines.
Government’s also doing their best trying to research ways to produce
medicines devoid of heavy metals. Personally I think the controversy
was actually a blessing in disguise, as it made the manufacturers and
more importantly, the government more attentive, alert and serious in
this field.
But the staunch practitioners of Rasaoushadhas are against the “free
from bhasmas” label! They argue that the absence of bhasmas will
reduce the efficiency. According to them, the research is not
“complete” as the dose of the medicine, animal and clinical study was
not taken into consideration for the research.
A detailed article on this issue has been written by Dr.S.Shripathi
(Udupi based Chest Specialist and Ayurvedic consultant). He has a
Maters degree in both Ayurveda and Modern Medicine.

Viswanathan P


On Dec 11, 5:09 pm, Sashikumar kurup <sashikumarku...@gmail.com>
wrote:

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[Harish M Tharayil]

A friend of mine who has BHMS. M Sc in Herbal medicine from Maharashtra was working in Singapore, Qatar etc for some time. He told me that these countries did not object to importing Indian herbal/ayurvedic drugs as long as they were meant for external application. But they were extremely cautious in giving permission to import drugs for internal use. Why our governments are not taking such steps regarding medicines needed for internal human use ? Is is due to a cultural bias / blind spot ? Are there any standard procedures followed in deciding the indications, contraindication and side effects of herbal, ayurvedic drugs..? How does the licensing agency give permission to market a specific product as a treatment for a specific disease ? I have heard that most of the commonly advertised like Kamilari for liver diseases, cholesterol Q R etc get the necessary license as general food supplements / health promoting drugs and then are marketed as cures for specific illnesses. Products of Pankaja Kasthuri for asthma etc may also be in the same category. Dr P Viswanathan would be able to tell us more about the processes involved in getting licence for Ayurvedic drugs, at least how Kottakkal group does it. 

2009/12/12 Viswanathan P <viswa...@gmail.com>

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[Sashikumar kurup]

Dear Vish P, thanks for the explanation. Have to think about it a
little bit......sashi

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[Sashikumar kurup]

Dear Vish C, I have two packets of tablets with the label. The rest I
have discarded.Those are sample packets. i will keep them for you, and
any I get later.......sashi