Has anyone had microfoam success with the Brewtus II's two-hole wand?

[DonSWG]

Hi there, first post! I was just wondering if anyone has been able to
coax microfoam from the BII no burn two-hole steam tip. I have been
practicing for several months now with the soapy water technique
(Scott Rao's idea. it really works), and going back to milk every so
often to check up. I can make fine foam with the one hole tip, but
it's too slow, and the foam is a bit airier. I have used a high volume
tip on a Synesso Cyncra before, so I know how to make good foam, but I
seem to be unable to accomplish it on this machine :(. If anyone can
give me some tips (pardon the pun), it'd be most appreciated.

-David

[Ben McCafferty]

David,
Search the archives for "tip experiment" and you'll find my testing and
results on many tips. My conclusion (which WLL warned me before I purchased
the two-hole tip) was that the two hole tip is not very good for anything,
especially not for microfoam. It does heat a drink really fast, though, if
that's what you want to do.
tx,
bmc
"Faith will move mountains, but you'd better bring a shovel....."

[DonSWG]

I actually plugged one of the holes with a toothpick. It definitely
increased the velocity of the steam coming out of the other hole. It
also enabled fantastically textured and sweet microfoam! It's a bit
slower than without the toothpick, but at least you can foam with
it...

-David

[Ray Sachs]

Very interesting. I didn't realize there was a problem. I thought I just forgot how to do latte art. I got half decent with my Silvia, but haven't been able to do much with the Brewtus. I've had the two hole tip the whole time. It makes nice airy thick foam for capps, but I haven't had more than an occasional lucky pour of latte art since I got this machine. What do folks recommend, the single hole I guess?

-Ray

[Ben McCafferty]

Same response—search “tip experiment” under the archives, and you’ll get more info than you ever wanted to read about the tips I tried.  You can probably interpolate to other tips as well.  The most well balanced tips are the 1-hole brewtus and the two small-hole isomac (and gold bar, I believe it was, a la Shaun—very similar to the small isomac).  The worst for steaming and best for heating were the pavoni four-hole and the brewtus 2-hole.

tx,
bmc
"Faith will move mountains, but you'd better bring a shovel....."

---

From: Ray Sachs <rambo...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: <bre...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 06:18:01 -0400
To: <bre...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Has anyone had microfoam success with the Brewtus II's two-hole wand?

[Kirk]

I have been using the goldpro tip and it is unreal how easy it is to
make microfoam. Better than the 1hole Brewt tip by far. If you live in
Canada like me it is a gong show to try to get one but well worth the
trouble. As far as the two hole tip it is almost imposible to get foam
unless you are doing larger amounts of milk(10+oz)...it just happens
to quick otherwise. Good luck
Kirk

[Ray Sachs]

For those using the goldpro tip on a Bretus II, did you have to buy the little female to male adapter? Or is there a new version of the tip that works with the Brewtus II directly. The on I saw on 1st line has a female end, but I saw an adapter at ChrisCoffee that looks like it would work.

-Ray

[Ben McCafferty]

You need the adapter from Chris.  You can also get the isomac small 2-hole tip from Chris, which almost identical to the Gold Pro, and then you don’t have to pay the setup fee at 1st Line.  Search “tip experiment” in the archives for more info on all this.

tx,
bmc
"Faith will move mountains, but you'd better bring a shovel....."

---

From: Ray Sachs <rambo...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: <bre...@googlegroups.com>

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 10:04:27 -0500

To: <bre...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Has anyone had microfoam success with the Brewtus II's two-hole wand?

[John Brinkman]

Once you have the adapter you are able to fit most 10mm steam tips to the Brewtus Cool wand arm :-). I have tried out a few and am always keen to try out new ones.

I tried out the 2 hole Isomac tip from CC and found it dead easy to make microfoam with but a bit slow for my liking. I then switched to a 3-hole Rancilio Silvia tip which I found to be a little more tricky but a whole load faster (I did timing in a previous email to the list). I am currently using a 5-hole tip from a Reneka which is very fast (about the same speed as the Std 2-hole tip) but still able to produce micro-foam with some practice N.B. I have closed of the central hole on this tip so it is now a 4-hole tip and the thread is different to the adapter thread so once you have it onto the tip it aint coming off again :-). Don;t know if I would buy another Reneka tip as it was quite expensive.

I am keen to try a La Marzocco tip to see if the Bretwus has enough steam to run it. I have found that it is difficult to micro-foam if the boiler pressure drops below +-.8bar so too many big holes seem to be a problem. I reckon a 4-hole tip with small holes would be ideal, would like to be able to find something that fits a bit better than the Reneka tip.

JohnB

[Dennis Keating]

John, I bought a three hole tip w/adapter for a Silvia from WLL.(adapter not used) It is quite large. Is this the one you refer to? Can you steam about 3-4 oz milk sucessfully?  Dennis

[John Brinkman]

Hi Dennis

The holes are pretty small, there is a pic of the one I use at http://www.wholelattelove.com/WholeLatteLove/3hole_steamtip.cfm

JohnB

[Ben McCafferty]

Hey John,
Does this tip fit on the 4-10mm adapter from Chris?  The adapter that comes with it seems like it’s too small for the B2 wand?  I agree that the 2-hole small isomac is a bit slower than I’d like, though it makes beautiful foam.

I could add this one to the repertoire if it fits the adapter.

tx,
bmc
"Faith will move mountains, but you'd better bring a shovel....."

---

From: John Brinkman <brinkm...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: <bre...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 17:58:44 +0200

To: <bre...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Has anyone had microfoam success with the Brewtus II's two-hole wand?

Hi Dennis

The holes are pretty small, there is a pic of the one I use at http://www.wholelattelove.com/WholeLatteLove/3hole_steamtip.cfm

JohnB



On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 5:25 PM, Dennis Keating <dennis....@comcast.net> wrote:

John, I bought a three hole tip w/adapter for a Silvia from WLL.(adapter not used) It is quite large. Is this the one you refer to? Can you steam about 3-4 oz milk sucessfully?  Dennis

----- Original Message -----

From:  John  Brinkman <mailto:brinkm...@gmail.com>  

To: bre...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 10:24  PM

Subject: Re: Has anyone had microfoam  success with the Brewtus II's two-hole wand?


Once you have the adapter you are able to fit most 10mm steam  tips to the Brewtus Cool wand arm :-). I have tried out a few and am always  keen to try out new ones.

I tried out the 2 hole Isomac tip from CC  and found it dead easy to make microfoam with but a bit slow for my liking. I  then switched to a 3-hole Rancilio Silvia tip which I found to be a little  more tricky but a whole load faster (I did timing in a previous email to the  list). I am currently using a 5-hole tip from a Reneka which is very fast  (about the same speed as the Std 2-hole tip) but still able to produce  micro-foam with some practice N.B. I have closed of the central hole on this  tip so it is now a 4-hole tip and the thread is different to the adapter  thread so once you have it onto the tip it aint coming off again :-). Don;t  know if I would buy another Reneka tip as it was quite expensive.

I am  keen to try a La Marzocco tip to see if the Bretwus has enough steam to run  it. I have found that it is difficult to micro-foam if the boiler pressure  drops below +-.8bar so too many big holes seem to be a problem. I reckon a  4-hole tip with small holes would be ideal, would like to be able to find  something that fits a bit better than the Reneka tip.

JohnB


 
On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 5:29 PM, Ben McCafferty <b...@kbmc.net>  wrote:
 

You need the adapter  from Chris.  You can also get the isomac small 2-hole tip from Chris,  which almost identical to the Gold Pro, and then you don't have to pay the  setup fee at 1st Line.  Search "tip experiment" in the archives for  more info on all this.

tx,
bmc
"Faith will move mountains, but you'd  better bring a shovel....."



 

---

From: Ray Sachs <rambo...@gmail.com <http://rambo...@gmail.com> >
Reply-To: <bre...@googlegroups.com <http://bre...@googlegroups.com> >

Date: Thu, 6  Nov 2008 10:04:27 -0500

To: <bre...@googlegroups.com <http://bre...@googlegroups.com> >

Subject: Re: Has  anyone had microfoam success with the Brewtus II's two-hole  wand?

 
 
 
For those using the goldpro tip on a Bretus II, did you  have to buy the little female to male adapter? Or is there a new version of  the tip that works with the Brewtus II directly. The on I saw on 1st line  has a female end, but I saw an adapter at ChrisCoffee that looks like it  would work.

-Ray

On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 8:37 PM, Kirk <bik...@shaw.ca <http://bik...@shaw.ca> >  wrote:
 
 
 
 

[John Brinkman]

Yes, the tip fits straight onto the 10mm adapter from Chris, no thread issues or anything :-)

The tip in the picture also seems to have an adapter supplied with it, I suspect for the Silvia which I think has a 6mm female fitting on the steam wand

Enjoy

JohnB

P.S. I have been looking for a 4 hole tip with holes about the same size at the Chris Coffee or Rancolio tips (0.8mm I think), I think that the Brewtus has enough steam power to drive that many holes as it seems to be able to keep the 3 hole tip at close to 1bar pressure without any major issues (220V though).

[Ben McCafferty]

OK, thanks John.  The Isomac holes are 0.9, and I’ll measure the Silvia if/when I get it and let you know.  

Assuming they are 0.8mm, then square area for the Silvia tip is approx. 1.51 mm^2.  

You may recall from my tip experiment back in March that the isomac 2-hole and the Brewtus 1 hole were approx. 1.3 mm^2.  

The 2-hole Expobar was 3.08 mm^2, and easily overwhelmed the boiler.  

Lastly, Terry reported that he had drilled a third 1.0mm hole in the Gold Pro, total hole area of 2.36mm^2, and reported that it steamed really well but pressure would drop a bit below 1 bar.

With all that in mind, I would argue that the acceptable range for getting good froth would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 1.3mm^2 to 2.3mm^2—below this takes forever, and above it overwhelms the boiler at times.  If you found a 4-hole tip with 0.8mm holes, you’d have 2.01mm^2 of area, which seems like it would be a really nice tip.  Schomer also prefers a 4-hole tip with a “fan like” pattern, i.e. not all pointing straight down.  So let me know if you find such a beast—it could be a nice addition also.  At 0.9mm, however, you’d be up to 2.54mm^2, which would be getting towards the outer fringes.  1.0mm would put you at 3.14mm^2, which would be too much for the machine to handle (at least for the 120V version; perhaps not for the 220V).

Uh oh, I think I need to geek out again for a moment; I just had another thought.  I’m a firefighter, and when we pump water to attack lines, we must account for friction loss.  This is basically the drop in pressure that is caused by turbulence in the water as it tries to move through the hose.  The loss here is geometric—small diameter hoses have a lot more loss than large diameter hoses.  For example, if you flow 200 gallons per minute through a 1 3/4” hose, it loses 62psi per 100 feet.  If you flow that same volume through a 3” hose, it only loses 3 psi per 100 feet!!  And there is a certain pressure for any hose where you can no longer force a higher flow through it—basically the turbulence and the pressure are in equilibrium.  This is the same concept used in a pressure limiter on your garden hose or your RV—the holes in the limiter are a size such that a certain pressure (say 10psi) is all that can get through before turbulence keeps pressure from rising any higher.

It seems, then, that this would apply also to tips.  If you have a 2-hole tip with 3mm^2 of area, and a 4-hole tip with 3mm^2 of area, intuition would say that the smaller holes will generate more turbulence, and therefore limit pressure coming through.  In turn, this would limit output of the boiler, making it less likely to be overwhelmed.  Since this is exponential, I’m guessing that the 4-hole would keep pressure in the boiler higher than would the 2-hole.  If this is true, then square hole area wouldn’t be the only consideration—number of holes to achieve that area would also be important.

This also seems to explain why the 1-hole Expobar and the 2-hole isomac (with almost identical square area) are very different tips—the Expobar is much faster than the isomac.

Does this make sense?  Anyone have thoughts?

Thanks again,

bmc
"Faith will move mountains, but you'd better bring a shovel....."

---

From: John Brinkman <brinkm...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: <bre...@googlegroups.com>

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 19:09:50 +0200

To: <bre...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Has anyone had microfoam success with the Brewtus II's two-hole wand?

Yes, the tip fits straight onto the 10mm adapter from Chris, no thread issues or anything :-)

The tip in the picture also seems to have an adapter supplied with it, I suspect for the Silvia which I think has a 6mm female fitting on the steam wand

Enjoy

JohnB

P.S. I have been looking for a 4 hole tip with holes about the same size at the Chris Coffee or Rancolio tips (0.8mm I think), I think that the Brewtus has enough steam power to drive that many holes as it seems to be able to keep the 3 hole tip at close to 1bar pressure without any major issues (220V though).



On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 6:59 PM, Ben McCafferty <b...@kbmc.net> wrote:

Hey John,
Does this tip fit on the 4-10mm adapter from Chris?  The adapter that comes with it seems like it's too small for the B2 wand?  I agree that the 2-hole small isomac is a bit slower than I'd like, though it makes beautiful foam.

I could add this one to the repertoire if it fits the adapter.


tx,
bmc
"Faith will move mountains, but you'd better bring a shovel....."

---

From: John Brinkman <brinkm...@gmail.com <http://brinkm...@gmail.com> >

Reply-To: <bre...@googlegroups.com <http://bre...@googlegroups.com> >

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 17:58:44 +0200

To: <bre...@googlegroups.com <http://bre...@googlegroups.com> >
Subject: Re: Has anyone had microfoam success with the Brewtus II's two-hole wand?

Hi Dennis

The holes are pretty small, there is a pic of the one I use at http://www.wholelattelove.com/WholeLatteLove/3hole_steamtip.cfm

JohnB



On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 5:25 PM, Dennis Keating <dennis....@comcast.net <http://dennis....@comcast.net> > wrote:

John, I bought a three hole tip w/adapter for a Silvia from WLL.(adapter not used) It is quite large. Is this the one you refer to? Can you steam about 3-4 oz milk sucessfully?  Dennis

----- Original Message -----

From:  John  Brinkman <mailto:brinkm...@gmail.com>  

To: bre...@googlegroups.com <http://bre...@googlegroups.com>  

Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 10:24  PM

Subject: Re: Has anyone had microfoam  success with the Brewtus II's two-hole wand?


Once you have the adapter you are able to fit most 10mm steam  tips to the Brewtus Cool wand arm :-). I have tried out a few and am always  keen to try out new ones.

I tried out the 2 hole Isomac tip from CC  and found it dead easy to make microfoam with but a bit slow for my liking. I  then switched to a 3-hole Rancilio Silvia tip which I found to be a little  more tricky but a whole load faster (I did timing in a previous email to the  list). I am currently using a 5-hole tip from a Reneka which is very fast  (about the same speed as the Std 2-hole tip) but still able to produce  micro-foam with some practice N.B. I have closed of the central hole on this  tip so it is now a 4-hole tip and the thread is different to the adapter  thread so once you have it onto the tip it aint coming off again :-). Don;t  know if I would buy another Reneka tip as it was quite expensive.

I am  keen to try a La Marzocco tip to see if the Bretwus has enough steam to run  it. I have found that it is difficult to micro-foam if the boiler pressure  drops below +-.8bar so too many big holes seem to be a problem. I reckon a  4-hole tip with small holes would be ideal, would like to be able to find  something that fits a bit better than the Reneka tip.

JohnB


 
On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 5:29 PM, Ben McCafferty <b...@kbmc.net <http://b...@kbmc.net> >  wrote:
 

You need the adapter  from Chris.  You can also get the isomac small 2-hole tip from Chris,  which almost identical to the Gold Pro, and then you don't have to pay the  setup fee at 1st Line.  Search "tip experiment" in the archives for  more info on all this.

tx,
bmc
"Faith will move mountains, but you'd  better bring a shovel....."



 

---

From: Ray Sachs <rambo...@gmail.com <http://rambo...@gmail.com>  <http://rambo...@gmail.com> >
Reply-To: <bre...@googlegroups.com <http://bre...@googlegroups.com>  <http://bre...@googlegroups.com> >

Date: Thu, 6  Nov 2008 10:04:27 -0500

To: <bre...@googlegroups.com <http://bre...@googlegroups.com>  <http://bre...@googlegroups.com> >

Subject: Re: Has  anyone had microfoam success with the Brewtus II's two-hole  wand?

 
 
 
For those using the goldpro tip on a Bretus II, did you  have to buy the little female to male adapter? Or is there a new version of  the tip that works with the Brewtus II directly. The on I saw on 1st line  has a female end, but I saw an adapter at ChrisCoffee that looks like it  would work.

-Ray

On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 8:37 PM, Kirk <bik...@shaw.ca <http://bik...@shaw.ca>  <http://bik...@shaw.ca> >  wrote: