The New 'Benefits I got from doing N-Back' Thread

[Eduardo]

Quoting Jack Nguyen:

1. What's the greatest direct benefit you've noticed from having
trained
in the N-back system? For those that have achieved 7+ back, do you
FEEL
sharper? Do you have any anecdotal evidence that it has been
working for you?
2. Do you feel as if I should concentrate on just the
default dual-n-back or should I try the other tests as well?
3. Do you guys find yourselves sub-vocalizing while doing this
test?
4. How long did it take you to reach each level?

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[Pontus Granström]

My greatest benefit is when I think really hard, like in mathematics. I am totally convinced that n-back has improved my mathematics ability. I've reached 7 back so it's not 7+ but yes I do feel sharper, but mostly from training and not so much from level. I guess around 4-6 is good enough, beyond that you usually start to use different techniques. I recommend that you train speed tests in combination with n-back they sort of work in synergy. However all tasks I've done including pure concentration tasks do not even comes close to DNB when it comes to intensity.

[Pontus Granström]

I managed to learn or more exactly actually understand error correcting codes, Chinese remainder theorem proof, generating functions and recursive equations in a couple of hours just because I was able to maintain"mental stamina" in ways I've never been able to before. As I've said before ,lack of understanding is very closely associated with forgetting to keep things in memory or not updating previous results, I believe this is the whole key to the Gf-DNB link. It might not make you smarter, it just makes it a habit to stay focus and update stuff, this increases the chance of actually solving the problem when all facts are given, like in a mathematics proof or a Gf-test. 

As I've said before you notice the greatest effects when you think really hard or intense. It feels much like when you've been doing interval workouts and run a "long distance run". You feel the benefits of the "pain" in greater endurance from pushing the cardiovascular system to it's max.

I think all schools should have mandatory dnb training. Perhaps even start the day with DNB for 15 minutes. Perhaps this would revolutionize the school systems in ways never seen before.

[kriegerlie]

i've defnitely had some benefit, like pontus said, dunno about being
smarter, but my focus is incredible now. I can do what i thought I
could never do, purely because I can focus more.

Placebo or not. It's a definite effect.

pontus, what dnb you use? and what are sessions like? everyday for
30mins?

On May 21, 12:04 pm, Pontus Granström <lepon...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I managed to learn or more exactly actually understand error correcting
> codes, Chinese remainder theorem proof, generating functions and recursive
> equations in a couple of hours just because I was able to maintain"mental
> stamina" in ways I've never been able to before. As I've said before ,lack
> of understanding is very closely associated with forgetting to keep things
> in memory or not updating previous results, I believe this is the whole key
> to the Gf-DNB link. It might not make you smarter, it just makes it a habit
> to stay focus and update stuff, this increases the chance of actually
> solving the problem when all facts are given, like in a mathematics proof or
> a Gf-test.
>
> As I've said before you notice the greatest effects when you think really
> hard or intense. It feels much like when you've been doing interval workouts
> and run a "long distance run". You feel the benefits of the "pain" in
> greater endurance from pushing the cardiovascular system to it's max.
>
> I think all schools should have mandatory dnb training. Perhaps even start
> the day with DNB for 15 minutes. Perhaps this would revolutionize the school
> systems in ways never seen before.
>

> On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 12:07 PM, Pontus Granström <lepon...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>
>
> > My greatest benefit is when I think really hard, like in mathematics. I am
> > totally convinced that n-back has improved my mathematics ability. I've
> > reached 7 back so it's not 7+ but yes I do feel sharper, but mostly from
> > training and not so much from level. I guess around 4-6 is good enough,
> > beyond that you usually start to use different techniques. I recommend that
> > you train speed tests in combination with n-back they sort of work in
> > synergy. However all tasks I've done including pure concentration tasks do
> > not even comes close to DNB when it comes to intensity.
>

> > On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 1:42 AM, Eduardo <esaram...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Quoting Jack Nguyen:
>
> >>   1. What's the greatest direct benefit you've noticed from having
> >> trained
> >>   in the N-back system? For those that have achieved 7+ back, do you
> >> FEEL
> >>   sharper? Do you have any anecdotal evidence that it has been
> >> working for you?
> >>   2. Do you feel as if I should concentrate on just the
> >>   default dual-n-back or should I try the other tests as well?
> >>   3. Do you guys find yourselves sub-vocalizing while doing this
> >> test?
> >>   4. How long did it take you to reach each level?
>
> >> --
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> >> .

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>
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[Pontus Granström]

No I only go for as many session I feel I can accomplish with good quality. Sometimes 15 min sometimes 20-25.

[kriegerlie]

haven't been on thse forums for long but what is the consensus the
whole lumosity vs brainworkshop? and how about you based on your
experience?

> > <brain-training%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com<brain-training%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>

[Pontus Granström]

Use both :-) I think dual-n-back is superior though!

[Rhett Del Fierro]

On May 21, 2010 9:50 AM, "Pontus Granström" <lepo...@gmail.com> wrote:

No I only go for as many session I feel I can accomplish with good quality. Sometimes 15 min sometimes 20-25.

On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 6:48 PM, kriegerlie <suoi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

> i've defnitely had so...

[αrgumziΩ]

Answers listed by question asked:

1) Intensity of focus and freedom from mental fatigue and the ability
to absorb new information quickly, efficiently, and relate it to long-
term info rapidly.
2) I would get bored with DNB (once I reached N=8, I stopped using
it), so I explored TNB, QNB, and PNB; QNB seemed to give me the most
noticeable results, because I maintained a relatively consistent
training routine, and expanded the flexibility and multi-manageability
of my thought-process/cognition in general better than DNB did.
3) Sub-vocalization is not how I would describe it; it is more like
remembering the data stream exactly as stated by the data stream. I
think fidelity of one's memory can be exercised by not relying on
one's "inner voice" (I tend not to have/use one of those, though, but
after WM training it actually "appeared" more than it ever did before,
which leads me to believe restructuring at a deep cortical level took
place).
4) N=5 was a big roadblock on DNB, which took about 20 sessions (not
trials) to graduate from; 6, 7, and 8 were extremely easy by
comparison, requiring less than half the number of sessions to
graduate (I scored 100% on D8B on my third session, which is clearly
"mastery"). QNB presented a roadblock at N=4, but progress was steady
thereafter.

I have since given up WM training (over 2 months of no focused
training) to monitor any possible degradation in my ability to focus;
it appears that I will have to take up training again some time soon
to resharpen my edge. I expect to use crab-DNB when the time comes.

argumzio

[moe]

1)For the most part I haven't really gained anything but at times (not
often) I notice very strong bursts of concentration (something that
didn't occur pre-n back). With some people gains aren't immediate.
I've decided to quit for a while because I'm burnt the hell out
(haven't n-backed for about 5 days and still feel burnt out lol) and
the rest should help to consolidate gains.
2)As others have said hodgepodge training may work in synergy so It's
probably a good idea.
3)Yes I sub-vocalize
4)I train primarily with brain workshop and by a fluke I reached level
5 the first day. I hit level 7 in about 2-3 weeks, level 9 in a
month, and level 10 in four months. Occasionally I play dnb at cogfun
and I'm down two levels there due to the auditory, it's a weakness
that should be dealt with so that's why I play there occasionally.

[milestones]

I have noticed some people in this thread saying "DNB won't make you
smarter but..."

I agree with this -- but I think needs a closer inspection. I'll throw
in some (perhaps controversial), ideas on how it won't how it will
make one "smarter."

This may appear off topic, but it gets to what is improving when you
practice DNB. I'd like to use for DNB training similar to certain
abilities in sports (however, this is not to be taken too strictly,
just as metaphor, similar to what Polar did in his write up on fluid/
crystallized).

Imagine DNB training was an exercise to help baseball pitchers-- it
won't help them throw all that much faster but it might help the
accuracy with which they throw and help them zero in where, ideally,
they want to throw it. And the same analogy could be used for serving
in tennis or hitting a drive in golf. There's Andy Roddick/Venus
Williams in tennis, Nolan Ryan in baseball, Fred Couples (in his
prime) in golf. Matchless, 5+ sd above the mean, raw horsepower.

However, such power means little without accuracy and surely there are
Andy Roddick dopplegangers out there who, because of wild serves,
don't make the cut at the US Open each and every year. The other thing
to note here is that there are also legions of tennis pros (in much
greater number) who don't make the cut because their serves just are
not fast enough and their other compensating abilities (great at drop
shots, etc) don't cut it because their speed of serve is not there.

Processing power is akin to the speed at which a pitcher throws or
tennis player serves. But, as newer studies have now shown, processing
power is not the same as G and G has been determined to be influenced
as much by WM as it is processing speed. Raw processing speed can be
measured by IT and various RT excercises where you can derive a high G
loading all without any problem solving -- so it's clear PS strongly
relates to G...but as recent studies reveal, it's likely to be
insufficient. After all, where is the problem solving in hitting a
button? If you read the Mega interview with Arthur Jensen and Chris
Langan, you will see Jensen having some trouble breaking through to
Langan's mammoth yet sometimes obstreperous cortex the notion that
problem solving alone is not the same as G. Yet, Langan makes a point
in remaining oppositional as if to say, "Okay, enough about the
brain's ability for rapid button pressing what about the thing that
matters, "intelligence?"

I see working memory combining with processing speed (and, to varying
degrees, long term memory/prior knowledge, prior practice), to enable
problem solving and abstract thinking (roughly speaking,
intelligence).

I see WM as the "controlling" aspect of intellect -- the part that
allows one to look at solutions in an uncluttered manner, to see
similarities among competing distractors and so on. Arguably, WM is
more important than processing speed for intellectual activities in
the way that a bag of tricks (slider, curve) is most important for a
great pitcher (after reaching a threshhold for speed). For this
analogy to work though WM needs to be considered along with long term
memory and "crystallized" intelligence factors in order to evaluate
performance. Fortunately, WM appears to be the most trainable aspect
and sort of works as a go-between between processing speed and long
term memory.

All this is to say, DNB helps control and channel one's intellect.
Anecdotally, training with DNB has helped me do this. In other words,
in more abstract terms, DNB practice does not raise" G's innate power
but seems to improve and sharpen it significantly. "Education" is
supposed to do this ("educare" from Latin, "to draw out") but not
everyone (child or adult) has a brain ready to be educated. Like
Pontus, I see DNB training as potentially viable for preparing the
mind for education....which can
be especially beneficial for those who have high power/speed but who
lack a natural propensity for optimizing it.

[αrgumziΩ]

Very thorough message, milestones. *applause*

What I said actually supports your argument, too.
Thus, we agree on the nature of WM, more or less.

argumzio

[zzzz]

On 21 Maj, 12:07, Pontus Granström <lepon...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I recommend that
> you train speed tests in combination with n-back they sort of work in
> synergy.

Can you recommend any such tests?

[Pontus Granström]

Take the tests at mybraintrainer.com they helped me a lot. Speedmatching and so on.

[Rotem]

DNB works, It's one of the best investments I made in my life.
I have much less anxiety ( I suffered from GAD my life was a
nightmare), more confidence and I guarantee more intelligence - I can
feel it...
Last year I scored 123 in www.iqtest.dk and today I made 140.
If you eliminate statistic deviations, even if it's just 5-10 points
it's very good IMO.

I also train hard both Cardio and lifting weights, I can't tell you
how much difference it made to me.

I juggle occasionly, learn music theory, and I take Bacopa and
Ashwagandha. They work great.

The staple of my brain training is still DNB.

[Gwern Branwen]

On Sun, May 30, 2010 at 10:35 AM, Rotem <hypno...@gmail.com> wrote:
> DNB works, It's one of the best investments I made in my life.
> I have much less anxiety ( I suffered from GAD my life was a
> nightmare), more confidence and I guarantee more intelligence - I can
> feel it...
> Last year I scored 123 in www.iqtest.dk and today I made 140.
> If you eliminate statistic deviations, even if it's just 5-10 points
> it's very good IMO.

I've added you to the IQ score & benefits section of the FAQ.

I'll take this opportunity to encourage anyone with *null* or even
negative results to write a little about their experience. Only you
can combat selection bias!

--
gwern

[Social fox]

Brother which source is best and how much minutes to play each day?

[subde...@gmail.com]

My iq went from 121 to 140. reached 65% d11b and been training for 5 months. Not online tests, actual ones. From dual 1 back to 7 i would say half a month each then 8 back took maybe one and a half months and so on. 

[Albert Bokor]

What software were you using? I haven't done much, but I found only one app at which I can stay at 4-back.

On Wed, 11 Apr 2018, 04:58 , <subde...@gmail.com> wrote:

My iq went from 121 to 140. reached 65% d11b and been training for 5 months

On Thursday, May 20, 2010 at 7:42:17 PM UTC-4, Eduardo wrote:

Quoting Jack Nguyen:

   1. What's the greatest direct benefit you've noticed from having
trained
   in the N-back system? For those that have achieved 7+ back, do you
FEEL
   sharper? Do you have any anecdotal evidence that it has been
working for you?
   2. Do you feel as if I should concentrate on just the
   default dual-n-back or should I try the other tests as well?
   3. Do you guys find yourselves sub-vocalizing while doing this
test?
   4. How long did it take you to reach each level?

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[Albert Bokor]

Also, how frequently were you doing it?

[TranquiLogic]

When you say your IQ went up, are you talking about your fluid intelligence score? Did you do mental rotation, paper folding, raven's matrices, and other fluid intelligence tests? Did you notice any subjective changes from playing dual n back? Has your concentration, processing speed, visualization skills, etc, improved? Were you playing regular dual n back? What settings were you using? Did you use interference? If so, what level? What was the speed you were using?

[Mephistopheles]

Your N-level and lack of detail makes me skeptical. Would you be willing to post a screenshot of your daily progress charts to ease my doubts?

 If you took the tests professionally, would you be willing to give a breakdown of your scores (if you are using Welscher/Binet)? If you used Raven's, which one did you use and what was your range? Raven's is less reliable and must be given in a range.

Also, most people don't go up levels at a linear rate. 

Did you keep your own log as well? It would be informative to know days you trained and how much time you put in each day.

These IQ gains are plausible. I hope you can elaborate more so that others may use your experience as a useful reference for their endeavors.

[Mephistopheles]

Why did you post this brief message now instead of when you joined the group on April 1st. If you had these really good gains, you likely would be excited to post about them. Especially considering the amount time you have claimed to put in the game. Not to mention, it is self-evident among those trying to increase their Iq that the type of test taken is very important. It is odd for someone who invested this much time into increasing Iq, to forget to mention the name of the test they took.  

I also get the feeling that your score would be higher than 140 if you were N-11. It gives me the impression you are trying to make an outlandish claim and trying to make it seem realistic with a much more reasonable claim.

You also posted about this in reply to a comment instead of making post. Most people who have self-experimented with a before and after IQ test make a post. While, it is a habit of trolls to reply to content rather than make their own.

Overall, your post gives me the impression you are not being genuine. This is based on my own experience with DNB and the reading of other peoples' experience. It just lacks an authentic feel that seems consistent with people who have actually put time into the game.

I'm going to go with my gut and say troll. Others may use their own discretion when evaluating your claims.

On Tuesday, April 10, 2018 at 8:58:28 PM UTC-6, subde...@gmail.com wrote:

[subde...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, May 20, 2010 at 7:42:17 PM UTC-4, Eduardo wrote:

[TranquiLogic]

Did you use interference? If so, what level?? Also you didn't answer my question about whether or not you felt any subjective differences in mental imagery, processing speed, comprehension, long term memory, short term memory, concentration, etc.

[TranquiLogic]

I think that the reason you see a vague image is probably because your brain's working memory is a few levels below the level you got 100% at. It is probably safe to assume that whatever level you easily achieve 100% at is your brain's default mode. So if you were getting 100% at 13 n back, you might be operating at 11-12 items in your working memory normally. Maybe at that point, you would be able to consistently retain the image. Does anyone agree with this? I think the brain is naturally lazy.