Results
Chuck
software?
-Chuck
Mike L.
yes
Gwern Branwen
Hash: SHA512
On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:46 PM, Chuck wrote:> Has anyone noticed an
improvement in memory or ability from using the> software?>>
- -ChuckFrom my FAQ:### IQ test resultsReports of IQ tests have been
mixed. Some results have been stunning:> "LSaul [posted
about](http://groups.google.ca/group/dualnback/browse_thread/thread/97b2340497476ecc/9959b6da18f8fbea)
his apparent rise in IQ back in October. From what I remember, he had
recently failed to qualify for MENSA, which requires a score of about
131 (98th percentile). He then got a 151 (99.97th percentile) on a
professionally administered IQ test (WAIS) three months later, after 2
months of regular dual-n-back use."
- --[MR](http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training/browse_thread/thread/8af44f3b20df9904)(A
>20 point gain sounds very impressive. But possible confounding
factors here are that LSaul apparently took 2 different IQ tests;
besides the general incomparability of different IQ tests, it sounds
as if the first test was a culture-neutral one, while the WAIS has
components such as verbal tests - the second might well be 'easier'
for LSaul than the first.)Some have not:> "I took the Online Denmark
IQ test again [after N-back training] and I got 140 (the sameresult)
> I took a standardized (and charged) online IQ test from www.iqtest.com and I got 134 (though it may be a bit higher because English is not my mother tongue)" --[Crypto](http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training/browse_thread/thread/8af44f3b20df9904/c397c36355355d4c)Tofu [writes](http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training/browse_thread/thread/d1e53e8c69c95c3a):> "I've purposely not been doing anything to practice for the tests or anything else I thought could increase my score so I wouldn't have to factor other things into an improvement in iq, which makes improvements more likely attributable to dual n-back. Before I took the test I scored at 117, a score about 1 in about 8 people can get (7.78 to be exact), and yesterday I scored at 127 (a score that 1 in 28 people would get). Its a pretty big difference I would say."The blogger of ["Inhuman Experiment"](http://inhumanexperiment.blogspot.com/), who played for ~22 days and went from ~2.6-back to ~4-back, [reports](http://inhumanexperiment.blogspot.com/2009/03/increasing-intelligence-by-playing.html):> "The other test proved to be quite good (you can find it [here](http://www.iqout.com/)). In this one, the questions vary, the difficulty is adjusted on the go depending on whether you answer them correctly, and there's a time limit of 45 seconds per question, which makes this test better suited for re-taking. My first test, taken before playing the game, gave me a score of 126; my second test, taken yesterday, gave me a score of 132 (an increase of about 5%)....As you can see, it's kind of difficult to draw any meaningful conclusions from this. Yes, there was a slight increase in my score, but I would say a similar increase could've been possible even without playing the game. I think the variation in the IQ test questions reduces the "learning by heart" effect, but that's impossible to say without a control group."[Pontus Granström](http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training/browse_thread/thread/fe4ee2f0c994e40e) writes that> "I scored 133 on www.mensa.dk/iqtest.swf today. I have never scored that highbefore I really feel the "dnb thinking" kicking in."(He apparently took that test about a year ago, and avers that his original score on it 'was 122. Well below 130.')Pheonexia [writes](http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training/browse_thread/thread/fe4ee2f0c994e40e/088dd6260d3d6031):> "Approximately three years ago I took the "European IQ Test." It was posted on some message board and the author of the thread said the test was credible. At that time, I scored 126.
> I've been n-backing since early February, so I figured I'd try it again today. I googled "European IQ Test" and clicked the first result, a test from Nanyang Technological University in Singapore.. I don't recall any of the exact questions for the first one I took three years ago, but the format of this test seemed almost identical. Today I scored 144, 18 points higher than before.
> To me, this is anecdotal evidence that n-backing does increase intelligence. I'll try again for another three months and take a completely different test.
> I will admit, however, that I recognized one of the first questions as the Fibonacci sequence, so I attribute that to crystallized, not fluid intelligence. The highest score this test allows for is 171, meaning you got ZERO questions wrong. I got 6 wrong and 3 half questions wrong where it requires two answers (that was my worst section), so either 7.5 or 9 out of 33 questions wrong."Keep in mind, that if IQ is improved, that doesn't necessarily mean anything unless one employs it to some end. It would be a shame to boost one's IQ through N-back, but never use it because one was too busy playing!### Benefits[Jack Nguyen asked](http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training/browse_thread/thread/14c843162167c376) what benefits people saw from N-back use. The responses (and quotes from other threads) are, of course, entirely anecdotal, so take them as you will.- Ashirgo: "To be honest, I do not feel any obvious difference. There are moments in which I perceive a significant improvement, though, as well as particulars task which are much easier now."
"I have also experienced better dream recalling, with all these
reveries and other hallucinations included ;) I am more happier now
than ever. I did doubt it would be ever possible! I am also more prone
to get excited...Now people in my motherland are just boring to listen
to. They speak too slow and seem as though it took them pains to
express anything. I did not notice that after I had done my first
ninety days of n-back, but now (after 2.5 months) it is just
conspicuous."[](http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training/browse_thread/thread/1c44c7570cdb4a35)
"My change of opinion^[from at 90 days seeing little effect, to
2.5 months later producing the second testament] can be easily
attributed to the improvement of mood, in coincidence with the mere
fact that the winter days have passed and now there is a bright and
sunny Spring in my country:)"; when asked if the previous means
Ashirgo attributes all the improvement to the weather, Ashirgo
[replied](http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training/browse_thread/thread/8f3f840e05a90509):
"Fortunately, I can attribute many changes to n-back, I can now handle
various tasks with little effort and it takes me much less time in
comparison with others (especially when I know what to do:) ).
Nevertheless, the main problem for me is that I am also occupied with
few things that I suppose to be able to test my newly acquired
potential, therefore I cannot say that "changes" are explicit
everywhere.
On the other hand, I am starting to believe that any improvements
(that one can expect) so smoothly and swiftly become a natural part of
one's capabilities that it makes them hardly noticeable until some
tests/measures are taken."- chinmi04: "For me, it definitely has
taught me how to focus. But I'm still not sure whether that has
something to do with merely coming to realize the importance of
focusing, or whether the program has really physically rewired my
brain to focus better. In any case, it appears that I'm now faster at
mental reasoning, creative thinking and speaking fluency. But again,
the effects are not so clear as to completely eliminate any doubt
regarding the connection with the n-back program."
"I have been maintaining a personal blog on wordpress since 3 years
ago. Average post per month : a little over 1. Then I started with
dual-n-back at the end of november... number of posts in January : 7!
(none are about n-back)"- Confuzedd: "[asked if felt 'sharper']:
Nothing."- ArseneLupin: "Not much, yet, but I feel that I can easier
get a hold of a discussion. The feeling is the same as when I am
mastering a certain n-back in the game (a bit hard to explain)."-
John: "I feel much sharper since I started in the middle of last
November...My productivity is much higher these days. I'm a
non-fiction writer, so having a higher working memory and fluid
intelligence directly leads to better (and faster) performance. It's
amazing to see the stuff I produce today and compare it to before I
began the Dual N-Back training. Also, I am simultaneously learning
German, French and Spanish, and I'm certain this is helping me learn
those languages faster."- Ginkgo: "DN-Back has probably helped me with
one of my hobbies."- BamaDoc: "I note a subjective difference in
recall. There might be some increase in attention, but I certainly do
notice a difference in recall. It might be placebo, but I am
convinced enough that I continue to find time to use the
program."[](http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training/browse_thread/thread/f11ff07eb9eba1a4)-
karnautrahl: "Since November however, I began to read the Neuroscience
book in more detail. I mentioned late December I think that I was
finding I could understand more stuff. I've spent about £1000 on books
since November. The large majority are books on the brain, source from
Amazon reviews, reading lists and out of my own pirate list when I
liked a book. I stopped Dual n Back in December, early. The benefits
have stayed however. I tested this the other day, very easily going to
3 n back, which was mostly where I was before. I guess in a way I'm
trying to say that for me, whilst the focus may have been on G
increase and IQ etc, now the focus is on--what's *really* happened and
what can I do with it :). What I can do with it is choose to
concentrate long enough to genuinely understand fairly technical in
depth chapters on subjects often new to
me."[](http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training/browse_thread/thread/7a674cf0305a6f5c)
"After not using this since around December last year, I still
attribute my vastly improved concentration to DNB training...Some are
degree textbooks or for med school students. I'm having no real
trouble working through any of these....This isn't a case of how smart
I became because I definitely have no comparison for this as I'm not
on a course nor am I eligible for any degree placements at this time.
What it is though, is my own personal testimony as to how much greater
concentration I have than I ever
had."[](http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training/browse_thread/thread/a9e8c326d95f0da6)
Karnautrahl writes more on his self-improvements in his thread
["Second lot of training started-and long term experience overall.
"](http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training/browse_thread/thread/9c233ef7c68b16dc)-
negatron: "One perhaps coincidental thing I noticed is that dream
recollection went up substantially. A good while after I stopped I
developed an odd curiosity for what I previously considered unpleasant
material, such as advanced mathematics. Never imagined I'd consider
the thought of advanced calculus exciting. I began reading up on such
subjects far more frequently than I used to. This was well after I've
long forgotten about dual n-back so I find it hard to attribute it to
a placebo effect, believing that I'm more adapted to this material. On
the other hand I don't recall reading anything about motivational
benefits to dual n-back training so I still consider this conjecture
and perhaps an eventful coincidence just the
same."[](http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training/browse_thread/thread/7a674cf0305a6f5c)-
Chris: "One thing I have noticed is the recollection of a number of
very unpleasant images in dreams. Specifically, images of bodily
disease, mutilation, injury and post-mortem decomposition. I find it
difficult to believe it's just a coincidence, because I can't remember
when I last had such a dream, and I've had maybe half a dozen since I
started dual n-back. But perhaps it's simply owing to better
recall."[](http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training/browse_thread/thread/7a674cf0305a6f5c)-
sutur: "i didn't really notice any concrete changes in my thinking
process, which probably, if existent, are rather hard to detect
reliably anyway. one thing i did notice however is an increased sense
of calmness. i used to move my legs around an awful lot while sitting
which i now don't feel the urge to anymore. but of course this could
be placebo or something else entirely. i also seem to be able to read
text (in books or on screen) more fluently now with less danger of
distraction. however, personally i am quite skeptic when people
describe the changes they notice. changes in cognitive capacity are
probably quite subtle, build up slowly and are hard to notice through
introspection."[](http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training/browse_thread/thread/1c44c7570cdb4a35)-
astriaos: "By 'robust', I mean practically everything I do is
qualitatively different from how I did things 30 days previous to the
dual n-back training. For instance, in physics class I went from
vaguely understanding most of the concepts covered in class to a
mastery thorough enough that now my questions usually transcend the
scope of the in-class and textbook material, routinely stupefying my
physics teacher into longer-than-average pauses. It's the same
experience for all of my classes. Somehow, I've learned more-than-I
usually learn of physics/government/ etc. (all of my classes, and any
topic in general) information from sources outside of class, and
without what I consider significant effort. I feel like my learning
speed has gone up by some factor greater than 1; I can follow longer
arguments with greater precision; my vocabulary has improved; I can
pay attention longer; my problem solving skills are significantly
better... Really, it's amazing how much cognition depends on
attention!"[](http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training/browse_thread/thread/1c44c7570cdb4a35)-
flashquartermaster reports N-back cured his [chronic fatigue
syndrome](http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training/browse_thread/thread/84d227fee313b60a)?-
UOChris1: "Harry Kahne was said to have developed the ability to
perform several tasks at one time involving no less the 16 different
areas of the brain....Surprisingly, I am slowly developing the ability
simultaneously perform quad combination 3-back while reciting the
alphabet backwards. The practice is very difficult and requires loads
of concentration but I am experiencing perceivable gains in clarity of
thought from one day of practice to the next whereas my gains from
brainworkshop alone were not perceivable on a daily
basis."[](http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training/browse_thread/thread/18eeddd23451f1f0)-
[Pheonexia](http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training/browse_thread/thread/8f3f840e05a90509):
"now I'm at 6-back and am consistently between 50 and 80%
accurate....All that said, I have NOT noticed any differences in my
mental capacity, intelligence, daily life, or even ability to remember
things that just happened. I still sometimes forget people's names
right after they tell me them. I'm going to keep training though,
because just because I haven't consciously noticed these things, I
have faith in scientific studies, so with enough training hopefully
I'll yield some positive benefits."-- gwern
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Mike L.
people experience results differently than others (perhaps for the
reason that people's brains are just "wired" dissimilarly). I, for
one, lean towards the belief that the younger you are, the larger the
benefit you can expect to -and effectively acquire- from training
with
DNB; I'm relatively young -17 years old- and in the short time that
I've spent training with DNB (~30 days total) I can say both
objectively and subjectively that my intelligence has increased. Not
only is the way in which i deal with problems more innovative and
efficient but the spectrum of those things which I can now deal with
has increased largely as well.
Empirically speaking, however: I took a WAIS-IV IQ test (administered
professionally) around a year ago and got a 110. I took a derivative
of the same test recently (mind you, after about 20 days of DNB
training) and got a score of 121.
Though i don't give much thought to IQ tests (i tend to rely more
heavily on how i feel), I do think this is an indication that there's
definitely something going on.
On Jun 24, 2:26 pm, Gwern Branwen <gwe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA512
>
> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:46 PM, Chuck wrote:> Has anyone noticed an
>
> improvement in memory or ability from using the> software?>>
> - -ChuckFrom my FAQ:### IQ test resultsReports of IQ tests have been
> mixed. Some results have been stunning:> "LSaul [posted
> recently failed to qualify for MENSA, which requires a score of about
> 131 (98th percentile). He then got a 151 (99.97th percentile) on a
> professionally administered IQ test (WAIS) three months later, after 2
> months of regular dual-n-back use."
> factors here are that LSaul apparently took 2 different IQ tests;
> besides the general incomparability of different IQ tests, it sounds
> as if the first test was a culture-neutral one, while the WAIS has
> components such as verbal tests - the second might well be 'easier'
> for LSaul than the first.)Some have not:> "I took the Online Denmark
> > To me, this is anecdotal evidence that n-backing does increase intelligence. I'll try again for another three months and take a completely different test.
> "I have also experienced better dream recalling, with all these
> reveries and other hallucinations included ;) I am more happier now
> than ever. I did doubt it would be ever possible! I am also more prone
> to get excited...Now people in my motherland are just boring to listen
> to. They speak too slow and seem as though it took them pains to
> express anything. I did not notice that after I had done my first
> ninety days of n-back, but now (after 2.5 months) it is just
> 2.5 months later producing the second testament] can be easily
> attributed to the improvement of mood, in coincidence with the mere
> fact that the winter days have passed and now there is a bright and
> sunny Spring in my country:)"; when asked if the previous means
> Ashirgo attributes all the improvement to the weather, Ashirgo
> book in more detail. I mentioned late December I think that I was
> finding I could understand more stuff. I've spent about £1000 on books
> since November. The large majority are books on the brain, source from
> Amazon reviews, reading lists and out of my own pirate list when I
> liked a book. I stopped Dual n Back in December, early. The benefits
> have stayed however. I tested this the other day, very easily going to
> 3 n back, which was mostly where I was before. I guess in a way I'm
> trying to say that for me, whilst the focus may have been on G
> increase and IQ etc, now the focus is on--what's *really* happened and
> what can I do with it :). What I can do with it is choose to
> concentrate long enough to genuinely understand fairly technical in
> depth chapters on subjects often new to
>
> read more »
Gwern Branwen
Hash: SHA512
On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 2:49 PM, Mike L. wrote:
> I, for
> one, lean towards the belief that the younger you are, the larger the
> benefit you can expect to -and effectively acquire- from training with
> DNB; I'm relatively young -17 years old- and in the short time that
> I've spent training with DNB (~30 days total) I can say both
> objectively and subjectively that my intelligence has increased. Not
> only is the way in which i deal with problems more innovative and
> efficient but the spectrum of those things which I can now deal with
> has increased largely as well.
>
> Empirically speaking, however: I took a WAIS-IV IQ test (administered
> professionally) around a year ago and got a 110. I took a derivative
> of the same test recently (mind you, after about 20 days of DNB
> training) and got a score of 121. (Mind you however, the WAIS-IV IQ
> tests do incorporate what is known as Gc, or crystallized
> intelligence)
Thanks for the report; I've added it to the FAQ.
- --
gwern
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childofbaud
same test"? Does it have an official name? How did it differ from the
WAIS-IV? Was it administered professionally? Thanks.
>
> read more »
Mike L.
for my saying "derivative" i was referring to the same test just being
administered different portions of it. The WAIS-IV has multiple
sections which correspond to different areas of cognition. There might
be, for example, two different portions of the test that test the same
area of cognition just that -for reasons of wanting to maintain
consistency and eliminate the possibility that one can increase their
IQ score by having already taken the test- these other portions are
instead given.
So, in other words: Initially, i was administered the test in it's
default format -that is- with the portions of the test that one
usually receives; upon my taking the SAME test a second time, i was
simply administered the different portions, nonetheless for the same
purpose of calculating an IQ score in a way, mind you, that does not
differ from taking the test given the original portions.
>
> read more »