DNB and improvement issues
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punter
Jul 29, 2011, 6:29:41 AM7/29/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Please note that this is not my first post regarding perceived
improvements/benefits due to DNB training .I tried posting some of my
doubts previously in various threads started by different users, and
got a few encouraging replies, including one from argumzio for my
previous post, but a few questions still linger and I am looking for
more inputs/suggestions. Please be patient to go through the rather
lengthy post, I thought, I would put-in just as much detail as
possible. So here goes
Been training for about 5 weeks now, 30 mins a day and made very quick
progress initially, and now shuttling between n=7 and n=8 and
occasionally reaching n=9 (when I set out, I begin with n=2 and the
value of N for the next round depends on my performance in the round I
just finished).
But to be honest, I haven't seen any noticeable improvement in my
cognitive functions as such (or may be it's just all in my head).
Speaking in terms of specific skills that I really hope to improve, it
seems to me that my reasoning abilities to crack complex scenarios
(this is my prime motive for training), pattern recognition (can DNB
really help with that??), speed reading/comprehension (imagine all the
info we could take in and how much we could learn in a short-time),
mental arithmetic and focus (man, I am just as distracted as I used to
be) haven't really improved to any noticeable extent. On the other
hand, I am somewhat tired after training for most of the day, I get
slightly impatient when my performance on the training task has dipped
compared to the previous day, I have also noticed that I am losing my
temper more quickly these days (I guess Emotional Intelligence
training is a whole new issue not so closely related to WM training)
May be it is too early to be expecting results on complex such
cognitive functions, but a few early signs would have been
encouraging :). Any inputs/suggestions regarding this situation would
be greatly appreciated.
NOTE: Here's the real sucker punch to my optimism. I took a few
intelligence tests (mostly culture insensitive), and the scores have
actually "DROPPED" some 3-4 percent. Although I guess that doesn't
mean much because I took those tests towards the end of the day at
work and was somewhat exhausted, but it sure as hell means that there
is no increase in my intelligence either!!
Thanks for patiently reading through.
improvements/benefits due to DNB training .I tried posting some of my
doubts previously in various threads started by different users, and
got a few encouraging replies, including one from argumzio for my
previous post, but a few questions still linger and I am looking for
more inputs/suggestions. Please be patient to go through the rather
lengthy post, I thought, I would put-in just as much detail as
possible. So here goes
Been training for about 5 weeks now, 30 mins a day and made very quick
progress initially, and now shuttling between n=7 and n=8 and
occasionally reaching n=9 (when I set out, I begin with n=2 and the
value of N for the next round depends on my performance in the round I
just finished).
But to be honest, I haven't seen any noticeable improvement in my
cognitive functions as such (or may be it's just all in my head).
Speaking in terms of specific skills that I really hope to improve, it
seems to me that my reasoning abilities to crack complex scenarios
(this is my prime motive for training), pattern recognition (can DNB
really help with that??), speed reading/comprehension (imagine all the
info we could take in and how much we could learn in a short-time),
mental arithmetic and focus (man, I am just as distracted as I used to
be) haven't really improved to any noticeable extent. On the other
hand, I am somewhat tired after training for most of the day, I get
slightly impatient when my performance on the training task has dipped
compared to the previous day, I have also noticed that I am losing my
temper more quickly these days (I guess Emotional Intelligence
training is a whole new issue not so closely related to WM training)
May be it is too early to be expecting results on complex such
cognitive functions, but a few early signs would have been
encouraging :). Any inputs/suggestions regarding this situation would
be greatly appreciated.
NOTE: Here's the real sucker punch to my optimism. I took a few
intelligence tests (mostly culture insensitive), and the scores have
actually "DROPPED" some 3-4 percent. Although I guess that doesn't
mean much because I took those tests towards the end of the day at
work and was somewhat exhausted, but it sure as hell means that there
is no increase in my intelligence either!!
Thanks for patiently reading through.
scs2163
Jul 29, 2011, 1:44:00 PM7/29/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
It seems to me that since you have progressed so rapidly with DNB that
it
the training really hasn't been much of a strain on your system so it
may not
have required the same sort of adaptation that it has for some of us
whose
progress is much slower. You report that you are now feeling tired
after
training which may indicate that you're system is taxed and having to
significantly reorganize.
I assume that you are not using some sort of mnemonic system to help
you which
would prevent your working memory from adapting much. If you are stop
it,
start over, and see what that's like.
The other thing, that I'm not sure some of the younger members of this
forum
appreciate, is that you may be pushing yourself too hard, not giving
yourself
sufficient amount of time to recover from the effort. If this were
physical
exercise one can get into an overtraining syndrome, and the only way
to
deal with that is to stop and let the system recover and integrate its
gains.
I've heard stories of athletes so overtrained that they had to take an
entire year off, only to come back and set personal bests within a
week
or two of training again.
We are trying to get our brains to adapt at a much higher level and
biology
does have its own timeline for change. That's non-trivial.
If you don't think that you are overtraining then maybe you could
try some of the more complex variations such as TNB or QNB
and see if that creates some sort of change that you can notice in
your daily life.
Some have reported that strategy working.
it
the training really hasn't been much of a strain on your system so it
may not
have required the same sort of adaptation that it has for some of us
whose
progress is much slower. You report that you are now feeling tired
after
training which may indicate that you're system is taxed and having to
significantly reorganize.
I assume that you are not using some sort of mnemonic system to help
you which
would prevent your working memory from adapting much. If you are stop
it,
start over, and see what that's like.
The other thing, that I'm not sure some of the younger members of this
forum
appreciate, is that you may be pushing yourself too hard, not giving
yourself
sufficient amount of time to recover from the effort. If this were
physical
exercise one can get into an overtraining syndrome, and the only way
to
deal with that is to stop and let the system recover and integrate its
gains.
I've heard stories of athletes so overtrained that they had to take an
entire year off, only to come back and set personal bests within a
week
or two of training again.
We are trying to get our brains to adapt at a much higher level and
biology
does have its own timeline for change. That's non-trivial.
If you don't think that you are overtraining then maybe you could
try some of the more complex variations such as TNB or QNB
and see if that creates some sort of change that you can notice in
your daily life.
Some have reported that strategy working.
ailambris
Jul 31, 2011, 12:53:23 AM7/31/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Yeah, that's true. And with there still being a good deal of ambiguity
about what the task really does, it's hard to say for sure that what
you're experiencing is not an anomaly. At this point, I think we may
only safely assume that some individuals are sort of primed for this
sort of challenge, as it is, and others are not, which may explain its
varying reception. It may also be your strategy? I think if we allow
the two-factor model, I mean, speed and capacity being the underlying
basis for short-term memory, then it could be that you are exceptional
in one, and lacking in the other. Could you be compensating in one or
the other, preventing yourself from proper training? It's really silly
to keep drawing on this analogy, but, for example, in the gym --
although I don't partake that scene any longer -- you'll see people
lifting massive weight with terrible form (no offense), and ultimately
they'll reach a plateau and have to rehash everything they learned
about training in order to push through. I don't really know if that's
your case, but it might be relevant.
about what the task really does, it's hard to say for sure that what
you're experiencing is not an anomaly. At this point, I think we may
only safely assume that some individuals are sort of primed for this
sort of challenge, as it is, and others are not, which may explain its
varying reception. It may also be your strategy? I think if we allow
the two-factor model, I mean, speed and capacity being the underlying
basis for short-term memory, then it could be that you are exceptional
in one, and lacking in the other. Could you be compensating in one or
the other, preventing yourself from proper training? It's really silly
to keep drawing on this analogy, but, for example, in the gym --
although I don't partake that scene any longer -- you'll see people
lifting massive weight with terrible form (no offense), and ultimately
they'll reach a plateau and have to rehash everything they learned
about training in order to push through. I don't really know if that's
your case, but it might be relevant.
ailambris
Jul 31, 2011, 1:38:46 AM7/31/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
punter
Jul 31, 2011, 10:23:26 PM7/31/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
@aliambris-Thanks a lot for your inputs, I will look more into ego
depletion, but I don't think it's an issue of self control/will power
here. I find the DNB task somewhat enjoyable and that is probably what
is keeping me at it, despite the not-so-great results. Could you
please elaborate on the first point you made, I would like drill down
a bit further. Going by your two factor model, can you think of a way
to find the area in which I might be lacking, so I can try and do more
cognitive tasks to improve that? I remember reading in one of the
previous threads that DNB doesnot exactly (or atleast we don't know
for sure) increase the WM capacity. What do you think
@scs2163- At higher N levels, I try to chunk the inputs but I don't
use mnemonic techniques. Also like I mentioned in the post, I only do
30 minute runs each day (and may be one or two runs of PASAT at n=4),
I have seen a lot of people posting anecdotes about training for more
than an hour each day and they still are able to gain some benefits. I
was advised to try TNB/QNB to push further, will look into it soon.
depletion, but I don't think it's an issue of self control/will power
here. I find the DNB task somewhat enjoyable and that is probably what
is keeping me at it, despite the not-so-great results. Could you
please elaborate on the first point you made, I would like drill down
a bit further. Going by your two factor model, can you think of a way
to find the area in which I might be lacking, so I can try and do more
cognitive tasks to improve that? I remember reading in one of the
previous threads that DNB doesnot exactly (or atleast we don't know
for sure) increase the WM capacity. What do you think
@scs2163- At higher N levels, I try to chunk the inputs but I don't
use mnemonic techniques. Also like I mentioned in the post, I only do
30 minute runs each day (and may be one or two runs of PASAT at n=4),
I have seen a lot of people posting anecdotes about training for more
than an hour each day and they still are able to gain some benefits. I
was advised to try TNB/QNB to push further, will look into it soon.
ailambris
Aug 1, 2011, 9:52:13 PM8/1/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
I'm not the authority, but I'd suggest playing with the number of
ticks per trial. Some others have experimented with this before, also.
More ticks per trial, less I think you're relying on processing speed,
and more your ability to hold information statically in mind?
ticks per trial. Some others have experimented with this before, also.
More ticks per trial, less I think you're relying on processing speed,
and more your ability to hold information statically in mind?
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