No gains
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moe
Jul 8, 2010, 10:52:09 PM7/8/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
After 6 months of training I decided to take the tri 52 again and
there has been no improvement in intelligence (or should I say
abstract reasoning ability), I'm still at 144 sd15 on that test. My
digit span has gone up a bit from 9 forward 8 reverse to between 10-12
forward and reverse depending on how I'm feeling. I'm still not sure
if the improvements in digit span are genuine memory improvements or
increased skill at chunking. I think I'll continue with my quad
routine as it seems to be strengthening my concentration in a way dual
has not.
I guess in my case abstract reasoning ability is fixed and there's
nothing I can do about it.
there has been no improvement in intelligence (or should I say
abstract reasoning ability), I'm still at 144 sd15 on that test. My
digit span has gone up a bit from 9 forward 8 reverse to between 10-12
forward and reverse depending on how I'm feeling. I'm still not sure
if the improvements in digit span are genuine memory improvements or
increased skill at chunking. I think I'll continue with my quad
routine as it seems to be strengthening my concentration in a way dual
has not.
I guess in my case abstract reasoning ability is fixed and there's
nothing I can do about it.
jttoto
Jul 8, 2010, 11:39:42 PM7/8/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Yes, I've continued to train QnB myself (about 3-4 times a week).
Based on the iqout.com test, if anything, I've gone down a little!.
This is not surprising and probably not attributed to n-backing. I'm
at the age where cognitive decline begins and I was depressed that
day. At the same time, one would think I would see measurable gains
by now.
Based on the iqout.com test, if anything, I've gone down a little!.
This is not surprising and probably not attributed to n-backing. I'm
at the age where cognitive decline begins and I was depressed that
day. At the same time, one would think I would see measurable gains
by now.
jttoto
Jul 8, 2010, 11:53:52 PM7/8/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Ohh I forgot, the score mentioned above on IQout was based after
Cattell conversion.
I remember one person reporting a 20 point difference between the
IQout and the mensa.dk test. (the latter being the higher score).
Has anyone had experience taking both of these tests? Has there been
similar disparities reported by others?
Cattell conversion.
I remember one person reporting a 20 point difference between the
IQout and the mensa.dk test. (the latter being the higher score).
Has anyone had experience taking both of these tests? Has there been
similar disparities reported by others?
mkaijo
Jul 9, 2010, 12:08:59 AM7/9/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
mkaijo
Jul 9, 2010, 12:59:02 AM7/9/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
To know why somebody didn't get gf improvement from WM training with
DNB task.We must know as fllow:
Why WM training of Dual n back task can your improve Gf?
answers:
1.Gf is composed by abstract reasoning ,perceptual reasoning, and
short term memory .DNB task doesn't improve abstract reasoning but
only short term memory (look at Jaeggi's chart about WM
improvement),RAPM test doesnt just need abstraction power and
perceptual reasoning but short term memory(STM) too. If STM grows be
large , so does Gf but not abstract reasoning and perceptual
reasoning.
2.DNB task has been designed using a small square.DNB task involved
recall of the location of a small square in one of several positions
in a visual matrix pattern.It represents in simplified form precisely
the kind of detail required to solve visual analogies.this DNB task
seems well-designed to facilitate performance on that RAPM test.In
other words visual modality has features like RAPM test.So this
madality is helpful for visual spatial STM increasing.
conclusion:
if you got the gain of gf ,that can be meant you got the gain of
STM(mainly visual spatial STM) and not your abstract reasoning.One
thing you need to know ,WM system is not overlapping with perceptual
and abstract reasoning,Jaeggi et al ust assume that WM system is
overlapping with other systems.the logic is:
save(on STM system) item x[i] to buffer y[i] after B sec
match(perceptual system) with the current item.
there is paper that counteract Jaeggi's research:
Can intelligence be increased by training on a task of working memory?
David E. Moody
thk 4 att.
and sorry about my english. I am from fareast.
Ghundalla Asbitrava
DNB task.We must know as fllow:
Why WM training of Dual n back task can your improve Gf?
answers:
1.Gf is composed by abstract reasoning ,perceptual reasoning, and
short term memory .DNB task doesn't improve abstract reasoning but
only short term memory (look at Jaeggi's chart about WM
improvement),RAPM test doesnt just need abstraction power and
perceptual reasoning but short term memory(STM) too. If STM grows be
large , so does Gf but not abstract reasoning and perceptual
reasoning.
2.DNB task has been designed using a small square.DNB task involved
recall of the location of a small square in one of several positions
in a visual matrix pattern.It represents in simplified form precisely
the kind of detail required to solve visual analogies.this DNB task
seems well-designed to facilitate performance on that RAPM test.In
other words visual modality has features like RAPM test.So this
madality is helpful for visual spatial STM increasing.
conclusion:
if you got the gain of gf ,that can be meant you got the gain of
STM(mainly visual spatial STM) and not your abstract reasoning.One
thing you need to know ,WM system is not overlapping with perceptual
and abstract reasoning,Jaeggi et al ust assume that WM system is
overlapping with other systems.the logic is:
save(on STM system) item x[i] to buffer y[i] after B sec
match(perceptual system) with the current item.
there is paper that counteract Jaeggi's research:
Can intelligence be increased by training on a task of working memory?
David E. Moody
thk 4 att.
and sorry about my english. I am from fareast.
Ghundalla Asbitrava
polar
Jul 9, 2010, 5:01:56 AM7/9/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
I agree that there is some ceiling for training memory, but in my
opinion you can definitely improve reasoning abilities - namely by
learning math, practicing odd one out, reasoning puzzles etc. It's
similar to vocabulary - when you learn new words, you not only know
something new, but you use the older one more effective. So if you
dont already work intelectually very hard, with practice you can
improve your reasoning (and maybe it will even show up in intelligence
tests).
opinion you can definitely improve reasoning abilities - namely by
learning math, practicing odd one out, reasoning puzzles etc. It's
similar to vocabulary - when you learn new words, you not only know
something new, but you use the older one more effective. So if you
dont already work intelectually very hard, with practice you can
improve your reasoning (and maybe it will even show up in intelligence
tests).
Gwern Branwen
Jul 9, 2010, 6:16:31 AM7/9/10
to brain-t...@googlegroups.com
Where does one take this tri52? The closest I found was
http://www.cerebrals.org/wp/?p=1 which just descirbes it.
--
gwern
moe
Jul 9, 2010, 7:26:58 AM7/9/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
The tri 52 has been revised recently, it's now called the Jouve-
Cerebrals test of induction (JCTI) and it's located under the test
menu. This revised version consists of the same problems as the tri
52 but it adapts to the user.
On Jul 9, 6:16 am, Gwern Branwen <gwe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Where does one take this tri52? The closest I found washttp://www.cerebrals.org/wp/?p=1which just descirbes it.
>
> --
> gwern
Cerebrals test of induction (JCTI) and it's located under the test
menu. This revised version consists of the same problems as the tri
52 but it adapts to the user.
On Jul 9, 6:16 am, Gwern Branwen <gwe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> --
> gwern
moe
Jul 9, 2010, 8:07:44 AM7/9/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Yes, Gc seems to be a major bottleneck in my case. Back in grade
school I just wasn't motivated to do well. In class I either zoned
out or went to sleep. The highest math attained in high school was
only algebra 1 and on top of that I slept in class everyday. My
vocabulary is also somewhat poor. I've done a few math tutorials over
the past 7 months so I now have a basic understanding of algebra,
probability, basic physics, etc, but there is still A LOT that I don't
know (calculus, statistics, differential eq, etc).
school I just wasn't motivated to do well. In class I either zoned
out or went to sleep. The highest math attained in high school was
only algebra 1 and on top of that I slept in class everyday. My
vocabulary is also somewhat poor. I've done a few math tutorials over
the past 7 months so I now have a basic understanding of algebra,
probability, basic physics, etc, but there is still A LOT that I don't
know (calculus, statistics, differential eq, etc).
Pheonoxia
Jul 9, 2010, 1:59:02 PM7/9/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
I remember some other person not making measurable intelligence gains
after using quad. If you're using quad, you sacrifice a larger N level
for higher complexity. However, most studies I've read correlate
intelligence with WM CAPACITY (capacity being the key factor). So
maybe if you'd train DNB (like multiple studies prove increase
intelligence) you'll reach a higher N-level, and thus have a higher N
level on one visual and one auditory stimulus. I'd wager that encoding
and decoding long sequences of information has more to do with
intelligence than encoding and decoding smaller but more complex
sequences.
Like in Chess, what's more important? Being able to imagine a sequence
of moves many turns ahead? Or imagining a sequence of moves that
change color and shape fewer moves ahead? I'd bet the former. Jaeggi
in Switzerland and whatever that Chinese university was showed that
fluid intelligence improves after performing position and auditory n-
back tasks simultaneously. Color and shape, which have little to do
with any of my noticeable thought processes at least, weren't tested.
No scientists I know of have predicted they're useful to grasp. Those
two extra stimuli just serve as noise.
after using quad. If you're using quad, you sacrifice a larger N level
for higher complexity. However, most studies I've read correlate
intelligence with WM CAPACITY (capacity being the key factor). So
maybe if you'd train DNB (like multiple studies prove increase
intelligence) you'll reach a higher N-level, and thus have a higher N
level on one visual and one auditory stimulus. I'd wager that encoding
and decoding long sequences of information has more to do with
intelligence than encoding and decoding smaller but more complex
sequences.
Like in Chess, what's more important? Being able to imagine a sequence
of moves many turns ahead? Or imagining a sequence of moves that
change color and shape fewer moves ahead? I'd bet the former. Jaeggi
in Switzerland and whatever that Chinese university was showed that
fluid intelligence improves after performing position and auditory n-
back tasks simultaneously. Color and shape, which have little to do
with any of my noticeable thought processes at least, weren't tested.
No scientists I know of have predicted they're useful to grasp. Those
two extra stimuli just serve as noise.
moe
Jul 9, 2010, 2:40:06 PM7/9/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Speaking of Gc has anyone here ever read an entire dictionary? I've
heard of a few people doing this. Are there any benefits besides the
increase in vocab?
heard of a few people doing this. Are there any benefits besides the
increase in vocab?
cev
Jul 9, 2010, 4:12:13 PM7/9/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
I learnt the Scrabble dictionary a few years ago (2 letter to 8 letter
words only). I can tell you whether a word is in the dictionary but
not what it means. That said, if I see a rote-learned unusual word 'in
the wild' the inevitable moment of recognition helps me to register
its meaning and use.
I did once attempt to learn a 'dictionary of difficult words' but
found that the rewards were slim, on account of the items' infrequent
use in everyday conversation.
What I'm doing at the moment is helping me expand my linguistic
horizons - I'm working my way through Europe's languages, aiming at
fluent reading comprehension and beginning with strategically-chosen
nodal points and then colonising surrounding areas through nearest-
neighbour tactics. Google translate makes creating parallel texts a
doddle and spotting correspondences is satisfying, not least with low-
probability English vocabulary.
words only). I can tell you whether a word is in the dictionary but
not what it means. That said, if I see a rote-learned unusual word 'in
the wild' the inevitable moment of recognition helps me to register
its meaning and use.
I did once attempt to learn a 'dictionary of difficult words' but
found that the rewards were slim, on account of the items' infrequent
use in everyday conversation.
What I'm doing at the moment is helping me expand my linguistic
horizons - I'm working my way through Europe's languages, aiming at
fluent reading comprehension and beginning with strategically-chosen
nodal points and then colonising surrounding areas through nearest-
neighbour tactics. Google translate makes creating parallel texts a
doddle and spotting correspondences is satisfying, not least with low-
probability English vocabulary.
otto9otto
Jul 10, 2010, 1:02:30 AM7/10/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Aerobic exercise can reverse cognitive decline.
Otto
Otto
jttoto
Jul 10, 2010, 8:20:06 AM7/10/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
A couple of ways to increase Gc.
Spaced repetition is an excellent way to improve your knowledge
efficiently. You can download the program Mnemosyne online.
If you look at the COGITO study posted earlier (look for thread with
appropriate title), they mention a training regimen that improves
episodic memory in young adults. Older adults saw no improvement.
Episodic memory is a good proxy for learning efficiency. Here it is:
[i]2.2.3. Episodic Memory
2.2.3.1. Word lists
Lists of 36 nouns were presented sequentially with presentation times
individually adjusted
based on pre-test performance. Presentation times were 1000, 2000, or
4000ms. ISI was
1000ms. Word lists were assembled in such a way that word frequencies,
word lengths,
emotional valence, and imaginability were balanced across lists. After
presentation, the first
three letters of each word had to be entered in the correct order
using the keyboard. The
performance scores were based on the number of words correctly
recalled multiplied by the
accuracy of their order (ranging from 0 for reverse order to 1 for
perfect order). Two trials
were included in each daily session.
2.2.3.2. Number-Noun Pairs
Lists of 12 two-digit numbers and nouns in plural case pairs (e.g., 22
dogs) were presented
sequentially with presentation times individually adjusted based on
pre-test performance.
Presentation times were 1000, 2000, or 4000ms. ISI was 1000ms. After
presentation, the
nouns appeared in random order and the corresponding numbers had to be
entered. Two trials
were included in each daily session.
2.2.3.3. Object Position Memory
Sequences of 12 colored photographs of real-world objects were
displayed at different
locations in a 6 by 6 grid with presentation times individually
adjusted based on pre-test
performance. Presentation times were 1000, 2000, or 4000ms. ISI was
1000ms. After
presentation, objects appeared at the bottom of the screen and had to
be moved in the correct
order to the correct locations by clicking on the objects and the
locations with the computer
mouse. Two trials were included in each daily session. [/i]
SOURCE: Hundred Days of Cognitive Training Enhance Broad Cognitive
Abilities in Adulthood: Findings from the COGITO Study
Spaced repetition is an excellent way to improve your knowledge
efficiently. You can download the program Mnemosyne online.
If you look at the COGITO study posted earlier (look for thread with
appropriate title), they mention a training regimen that improves
episodic memory in young adults. Older adults saw no improvement.
Episodic memory is a good proxy for learning efficiency. Here it is:
[i]2.2.3. Episodic Memory
2.2.3.1. Word lists
Lists of 36 nouns were presented sequentially with presentation times
individually adjusted
based on pre-test performance. Presentation times were 1000, 2000, or
4000ms. ISI was
1000ms. Word lists were assembled in such a way that word frequencies,
word lengths,
emotional valence, and imaginability were balanced across lists. After
presentation, the first
three letters of each word had to be entered in the correct order
using the keyboard. The
performance scores were based on the number of words correctly
recalled multiplied by the
accuracy of their order (ranging from 0 for reverse order to 1 for
perfect order). Two trials
were included in each daily session.
2.2.3.2. Number-Noun Pairs
Lists of 12 two-digit numbers and nouns in plural case pairs (e.g., 22
dogs) were presented
sequentially with presentation times individually adjusted based on
pre-test performance.
Presentation times were 1000, 2000, or 4000ms. ISI was 1000ms. After
presentation, the
nouns appeared in random order and the corresponding numbers had to be
entered. Two trials
were included in each daily session.
2.2.3.3. Object Position Memory
Sequences of 12 colored photographs of real-world objects were
displayed at different
locations in a 6 by 6 grid with presentation times individually
adjusted based on pre-test
performance. Presentation times were 1000, 2000, or 4000ms. ISI was
1000ms. After
presentation, objects appeared at the bottom of the screen and had to
be moved in the correct
order to the correct locations by clicking on the objects and the
locations with the computer
mouse. Two trials were included in each daily session. [/i]
SOURCE: Hundred Days of Cognitive Training Enhance Broad Cognitive
Abilities in Adulthood: Findings from the COGITO Study
polar
Jul 10, 2010, 11:10:56 AM7/10/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
I'm quite interested in vocabulary, and actually reading one
dictionary (it has 70000 lemmas in slovak, my native language). Btw
you can approximately measure your own english vocabulary
http://www.insightin.com/test/test.phtml ). Measuring general
invocabulary is even more tricky http://www.worldwidewords.org/articles/howmany.htm
.
Also, since we discussed "vocab vitamins" a year ago in this group,
I'm on their mailing list, and sometimes read words even in sets
("vocabuly" software, or some toefl audio cd). I think the main point
is that you are thinking semantically when you learn new words, and
not only you learn new words, but you use the "older ones" more
effectively.
dictionary (it has 70000 lemmas in slovak, my native language). Btw
you can approximately measure your own english vocabulary
http://www.insightin.com/test/test.phtml ). Measuring general
invocabulary is even more tricky http://www.worldwidewords.org/articles/howmany.htm
.
Also, since we discussed "vocab vitamins" a year ago in this group,
I'm on their mailing list, and sometimes read words even in sets
("vocabuly" software, or some toefl audio cd). I think the main point
is that you are thinking semantically when you learn new words, and
not only you learn new words, but you use the "older ones" more
effectively.
cev
Jul 10, 2010, 5:04:59 PM7/10/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
That sounds plausible.
> I think the main point
> is that you are thinking semantically when you learn new words, and
> not only you learn new words, but you use the "older ones" more
> effectively.
btw How easy is it for you to read the other Slavic languages and how
often do you do so?
> I think the main point
> is that you are thinking semantically when you learn new words, and
> not only you learn new words, but you use the "older ones" more
> effectively.
often do you do so?
Gwern Branwen
Jul 13, 2010, 4:46:11 AM7/13/10
to brain-t...@googlegroups.com
On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 7:26 AM, moe <lindas...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> The tri 52 has been revised recently, it's now called the Jouve-
> Cerebrals test of induction (JCTI) and it's located under the test
> menu. This revised version consists of the same problems as the tri
> 52 but it adapts to the user.
> The tri 52 has been revised recently, it's now called the Jouve-
> Cerebrals test of induction (JCTI) and it's located under the test
> menu. This revised version consists of the same problems as the tri
> 52 but it adapts to the user.
I see. I've added your and Jttoto's comments to the FAQ under the
null-result section for IQ tests. (Jttoto's original null report was
already there.)
--
gwern
Pontus Granström
Jul 13, 2010, 5:55:41 AM7/13/10
to brain-t...@googlegroups.com
I think that you should add some responses to Moody's criticism as well, especially the "speed claims", which are proven false.
gwern
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Gwern Branwen
Jul 13, 2010, 5:57:48 AM7/13/10
to brain-t...@googlegroups.com
On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 5:55 AM, Pontus Granström <lepo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think that you should add some responses to Moody's criticism as well,
> especially the "speed claims", which are proven false.
> I think that you should add some responses to Moody's criticism as well,
> especially the "speed claims", which are proven false.
You'll have to provide me some material then; I haven't kept up with
all your uploads.
--
gwern
Pontus Granström
Jul 13, 2010, 6:06:35 AM7/13/10
to brain-t...@googlegroups.com
In the thread "A very recent article on the role of memory updating in
persons having intellectual deficiencies." there's everything you
need. They measured Gf using a 10-min limit (RAPM) and found that
speed did not contribute to the performance but rather memory
updating.
persons having intellectual deficiencies." there's everything you
need. They measured Gf using a 10-min limit (RAPM) and found that
speed did not contribute to the performance but rather memory
updating.
milestones
Jul 13, 2010, 6:44:51 AM7/13/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
I do actually have gains to report on the "Advanced Culture Fair Test"
found on iqcomparisonsite.com that I just took today.
Facts: I scored 29 raw (out of 36) IQ 146 or 99.9%ile, compared to my
130 or 98%ile raw 21 that I scored when I took the test over a year
ago.
Interpretation: Not sure yet...this result is both surprising and not
very suprising. I thought the test itself was quite difficult when I
first took it. I had forgotten about this test but I have been playing
dual n back a lot lately so when I came across it I thought I'd give
it another go as a way to measure long term DNB'ing...In any event,
I'm pleased to hit 99.9%ile on a test that is supposedly modelled
closely "concept by concept" either on the RAPM or Cattell culture
fair -- (the website does not indicate which exactly). I took the same
amount of time both times I took the tests...Other than DNB, there's
creatine and nootropics that I've been taking (currently not being
cycled), so I'd be remiss not to mention other interventions as
possible explanations (among others) for gains on this particular
test.
For comparison to other fluid measures, this result is 3 points higher
than my Get-gamma score and 2 points higher than my GIGI certified and
13 points higher than my iqtestdk result which lands in the same place
every time I take it (last time I took it was less than a month ago).
My current DNB level averages 8+ over multiple (10-20) sessions.
found on iqcomparisonsite.com that I just took today.
Facts: I scored 29 raw (out of 36) IQ 146 or 99.9%ile, compared to my
130 or 98%ile raw 21 that I scored when I took the test over a year
ago.
Interpretation: Not sure yet...this result is both surprising and not
very suprising. I thought the test itself was quite difficult when I
first took it. I had forgotten about this test but I have been playing
dual n back a lot lately so when I came across it I thought I'd give
it another go as a way to measure long term DNB'ing...In any event,
I'm pleased to hit 99.9%ile on a test that is supposedly modelled
closely "concept by concept" either on the RAPM or Cattell culture
fair -- (the website does not indicate which exactly). I took the same
amount of time both times I took the tests...Other than DNB, there's
creatine and nootropics that I've been taking (currently not being
cycled), so I'd be remiss not to mention other interventions as
possible explanations (among others) for gains on this particular
test.
For comparison to other fluid measures, this result is 3 points higher
than my Get-gamma score and 2 points higher than my GIGI certified and
13 points higher than my iqtestdk result which lands in the same place
every time I take it (last time I took it was less than a month ago).
My current DNB level averages 8+ over multiple (10-20) sessions.
moe
Jul 13, 2010, 11:20:47 AM7/13/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Great job Will on hitting the 99.9+%ile. Whats interesting is that
the score report of the Tri 52/JCTI states that an iq above 144
indicates profound giftedness in figurative reasoning. It's commonly
thought that the threshold for profound giftedness is 160 but I guess
with measures of strictly gf the threshold is 145.
the score report of the Tri 52/JCTI states that an iq above 144
indicates profound giftedness in figurative reasoning. It's commonly
thought that the threshold for profound giftedness is 160 but I guess
with measures of strictly gf the threshold is 145.
mkaijo
Jul 22, 2010, 1:09:06 AM7/22/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Autism spectrum disorders (ASD)
Many accounts of individuals with ASD report to insensitive to sound,
light, and other stimuli.There is more evidence of decreased
responsiveness to sensory stimuli, although several studies show no
differences.
So that individuals with the ASD is difficult to develop their
capabilities through dual n back. This makes me suspect if you have
ASD. To know that you can further consult with your doctor.
On 9 Jul, 09:52, moe <lindasmit...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> After 6 months of training I decided to take the tri 52 again and
> there has been no improvement inintelligence(or should I sayabstractreasoningability), I'm still at 144 sd15 on that test. My
Many accounts of individuals with ASD report to insensitive to sound,
light, and other stimuli.There is more evidence of decreased
responsiveness to sensory stimuli, although several studies show no
differences.
So that individuals with the ASD is difficult to develop their
capabilities through dual n back. This makes me suspect if you have
ASD. To know that you can further consult with your doctor.
On 9 Jul, 09:52, moe <lindasmit...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> After 6 months of training I decided to take the tri 52 again and
> digit span has gone up a bit from 9 forward 8 reverse to between 10-12
> forward and reverse depending on how I'm feeling. I'm still not sure
> if the improvements in digit span are genuine memory improvements or
> increased skill at chunking. I think I'll continue with my quad
> routine as it seems to be strengthening my concentration in a way dual
> has not.
>
> I guess in my caseabstractreasoningability is fixed and there's
> forward and reverse depending on how I'm feeling. I'm still not sure
> if the improvements in digit span are genuine memory improvements or
> increased skill at chunking. I think I'll continue with my quad
> routine as it seems to be strengthening my concentration in a way dual
> has not.
>
moe
Jul 22, 2010, 8:10:44 AM7/22/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Yes I have high functioning autism, I was diagnosed about 8-9 months
ago. I was not given an IQ test as part of the diagnoses either for
some reason. I'm not sure if hyposensitivity has much to do with not
gaining from n-back I think it's all about finding one's bottleneck.
Subjectively I am starting to see a benefit from building my
vocabulary and the improvement actually seems pretty generalized.
During the past week and a half I memorized about 700 new words (100
per day with breaks every few days or so) and noticed a subjective
improvement just after the first day. Overall thinking speed has
improved, visualization/image quality has gone up a bit, and semantic
processing has improved. I'm memorizing the barron's gre wordlist
which consists of 3500 words. I don't ever plan on taking the gre and
going to grad school but it seems like a good way of going about
building one's vocabulary.
Any other tips on building vocab and verbal ability are definitely
welcomed.
ago. I was not given an IQ test as part of the diagnoses either for
some reason. I'm not sure if hyposensitivity has much to do with not
gaining from n-back I think it's all about finding one's bottleneck.
Subjectively I am starting to see a benefit from building my
vocabulary and the improvement actually seems pretty generalized.
During the past week and a half I memorized about 700 new words (100
per day with breaks every few days or so) and noticed a subjective
improvement just after the first day. Overall thinking speed has
improved, visualization/image quality has gone up a bit, and semantic
processing has improved. I'm memorizing the barron's gre wordlist
which consists of 3500 words. I don't ever plan on taking the gre and
going to grad school but it seems like a good way of going about
building one's vocabulary.
Any other tips on building vocab and verbal ability are definitely
welcomed.
αrgumziΩ
Jul 22, 2010, 2:33:17 PM7/22/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
"Any other tips on building vocab and verbal ability are definitely
welcomed."
Personally, I gain much from reading enigmatologically advanced
welcomed."
materials of the most recondite and intractable sort. The issue, at
any rate, is not simply building vocabulary for the sake of it, but
rather building it with a definite goal or aim in mind so that such
knowledge will be put to definite use. In other words, the words you
want to learn are probably only going to be of value if you encounter
and use them frequently, save for the possibility that you have a very
strong memory that can recall words you haven't used for years.
Reading certainly helps, but that is entirely dependent upon what you
read, the difficulty of which can vary widely; however, writing helps
a great deal more.
On the other hand, I'm aware that you do very well at the RST, like
myself, so I'm probably saying things you already know. I wish you the
best in your endeavor, moe.
argumzio
polar
Jul 23, 2010, 7:11:22 AM7/23/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
yeah, 100 words a day, of course - maaaaan! :) Today I feel here like
alice in wonder-forum :)
alice in wonder-forum :)
moe
Jul 23, 2010, 8:07:50 AM7/23/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
100 words per day is a lot? I actually feel like a complete idiot, it
takes a very long time to commit the words to memory. After I've
written the words and definitions on flash cards it takes about 4
hours to commit them to memory. The following day I go over the words
from the previous day and my retention is about 85-90%. It takes
about 10-20 minutes to internalize the 10-15 that I forgot. It sucks
having to refer to a dictionary frequently when you guys have your
complex discussions or when I'm reading newspapers articles,
literature, etc, plus whenever I'm talking with educated people 5
dollar words are occasionally thrown in. I've got no life so I have
the time.
takes a very long time to commit the words to memory. After I've
written the words and definitions on flash cards it takes about 4
hours to commit them to memory. The following day I go over the words
from the previous day and my retention is about 85-90%. It takes
about 10-20 minutes to internalize the 10-15 that I forgot. It sucks
having to refer to a dictionary frequently when you guys have your
complex discussions or when I'm reading newspapers articles,
literature, etc, plus whenever I'm talking with educated people 5
dollar words are occasionally thrown in. I've got no life so I have
the time.
milestones
Jul 23, 2010, 10:08:28 AM7/23/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Moe, it sounds to me like you're on the right path. Two things I would
advise against: reading a dictionary (too boring, among other
problems) and using a thesaurus (too shallow). Using academic test
prep books is a good idea. "Word power made easy" by Norman Lewis and
"30 days to a better vocabulary" as well as a slew of other books at
any good bookstore are imo much better than a dictionary...vocabulary
books will at least bring your intellect to the word, which is what
you will need.
But, I'd say, not right away...here is my method.
I've discovered two processes at work when working with lists. One,
just burn the words and their definitions into long term memory,
without using working memory or fluid intelligence much at all. In
other words, don't involve your prefrontal cortex much in this process
as your goal is simply to lock words into LTM. A key skill here is
visual scanning, which will give you the speed to work through any
latinate-charged list very rapidly. I'm not sure how to describe this
process, but it seems speed is king whereas analysis and all things
meta-cog better to be gagged and silenced. This is sort of the idiot
savant method -- which is why a lot of intelligent people might find
such a process anathema. But it really will break past the bottleneck
you've alluded to. This is for the first few rundowns of any list,
just try to stuff the word into your brain without thinking about it.
This is the pure crystallized method and it is somewhat limited....but
it will give you the lexical breadth you seek and help you to go wide,
so to speak. This works well for foreign langauges as well as the
difficult words in one's own language...(English is a wonderful of a
whore of a language with both high and low brow parts and I am a
sucker for the low as much as the high).
Next step involves working memory and fluid intelligence to a much
greater extent and will help make you true savant (sans the idiot
aspect). This involves turning the word over, reading about the word,
checking its etymology and things of anecdotal interest (draconian/
procrustean, for example, have interesting stories behind them) ,
comparing and contrasting the word to the other words you've learned,
build association network of words to use in your expression (speaking
and writing). All of this involves active learning (fluid intelligence/
wm), which is probably why idiot savants fare better in the realm of
trivia than language acquisition...so I'm not advocating the first
process on its own but only in conjunction with similar fluid
processes that are involved in other forms of problem solving.
Generally, though, my arm chair, (it is very armchair) theory is that
working memory/fluid intelligence 'can be' something of an impediment
to buidling a large crystallized knowledge base because there is too
much of an inspection process that occurs during the seminal,
acquisition phase. If we can modulate our learning processes (which I
think we all can do), then it seems we might be able to get the best
of both...anyway, this is my suggestion. Oh yeah, reading widely is
extremely important, (obviously). The first process will help you not
have to scramble to the dictionary as much...from what I can tell, you
will be very able to assimilate the two processes. You'll have to
experiment with trying both processes and sometimes it's hard to know
where one process begins and where one ends. I do have to tell myself,
sometimes, "okay, just learn this shit, don't take it apart yet."
Other times, okay, enough downing of info...time to analyze and make
sense of it. Still (especially lately) I do recognize the value of
both kinds of processes at work and do attempt to modulate them to get
maximum benefit.
advise against: reading a dictionary (too boring, among other
problems) and using a thesaurus (too shallow). Using academic test
prep books is a good idea. "Word power made easy" by Norman Lewis and
"30 days to a better vocabulary" as well as a slew of other books at
any good bookstore are imo much better than a dictionary...vocabulary
books will at least bring your intellect to the word, which is what
you will need.
But, I'd say, not right away...here is my method.
I've discovered two processes at work when working with lists. One,
just burn the words and their definitions into long term memory,
without using working memory or fluid intelligence much at all. In
other words, don't involve your prefrontal cortex much in this process
as your goal is simply to lock words into LTM. A key skill here is
visual scanning, which will give you the speed to work through any
latinate-charged list very rapidly. I'm not sure how to describe this
process, but it seems speed is king whereas analysis and all things
meta-cog better to be gagged and silenced. This is sort of the idiot
savant method -- which is why a lot of intelligent people might find
such a process anathema. But it really will break past the bottleneck
you've alluded to. This is for the first few rundowns of any list,
just try to stuff the word into your brain without thinking about it.
This is the pure crystallized method and it is somewhat limited....but
it will give you the lexical breadth you seek and help you to go wide,
so to speak. This works well for foreign langauges as well as the
difficult words in one's own language...(English is a wonderful of a
whore of a language with both high and low brow parts and I am a
sucker for the low as much as the high).
Next step involves working memory and fluid intelligence to a much
greater extent and will help make you true savant (sans the idiot
aspect). This involves turning the word over, reading about the word,
checking its etymology and things of anecdotal interest (draconian/
procrustean, for example, have interesting stories behind them) ,
comparing and contrasting the word to the other words you've learned,
build association network of words to use in your expression (speaking
and writing). All of this involves active learning (fluid intelligence/
wm), which is probably why idiot savants fare better in the realm of
trivia than language acquisition...so I'm not advocating the first
process on its own but only in conjunction with similar fluid
processes that are involved in other forms of problem solving.
Generally, though, my arm chair, (it is very armchair) theory is that
working memory/fluid intelligence 'can be' something of an impediment
to buidling a large crystallized knowledge base because there is too
much of an inspection process that occurs during the seminal,
acquisition phase. If we can modulate our learning processes (which I
think we all can do), then it seems we might be able to get the best
of both...anyway, this is my suggestion. Oh yeah, reading widely is
extremely important, (obviously). The first process will help you not
have to scramble to the dictionary as much...from what I can tell, you
will be very able to assimilate the two processes. You'll have to
experiment with trying both processes and sometimes it's hard to know
where one process begins and where one ends. I do have to tell myself,
sometimes, "okay, just learn this shit, don't take it apart yet."
Other times, okay, enough downing of info...time to analyze and make
sense of it. Still (especially lately) I do recognize the value of
both kinds of processes at work and do attempt to modulate them to get
maximum benefit.
moe
Jul 23, 2010, 12:04:17 PM7/23/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Thanks Will, great advice. You guys are so wise.
milestones
Jul 23, 2010, 12:58:23 PM7/23/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
No problem, Moe. Wisdom. In devil's dictionary fashion I would define
wisdom as essentially "a booby prize that comes with age-related
mental decline in which one trades in their mental sharpness for a
heap of knowledge and a sliver of extracted understanding derived from
that heap." I'm not ready for the delivery of such a prize just yet!
There's a quote I like by the ex great tennis champion Jimmy Conners:
"Experience is a great advantage. The problem is that when you get the
experience, you're too damned old to do anything about it."
wisdom as essentially "a booby prize that comes with age-related
mental decline in which one trades in their mental sharpness for a
heap of knowledge and a sliver of extracted understanding derived from
that heap." I'm not ready for the delivery of such a prize just yet!
There's a quote I like by the ex great tennis champion Jimmy Conners:
"Experience is a great advantage. The problem is that when you get the
experience, you're too damned old to do anything about it."
Message has been deleted
moe
Jul 24, 2010, 11:43:37 PM7/24/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
That's very interesting. I'd like to have my speech analyzed to see
how far away from normal my vocal patterns are. I didn't speak until
about 4-5 yrs of age and people had a hard time understanding me up
until 10 yrs of age. Currently I speak extremely well (so I'm told)
but my tone is like REALLY deep and weird, my friends like to joke
about it at times.
On Jul 24, 10:08 pm, likeprestige <plastic...@live.com.au> wrote:
> Hey moe,
>
> Just thought this article may interest you...
>
> --Autism Has Unique Vocal Signature, New Technology Reveals--
>
> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/07/100719162645.htm
>
> regards,
>
> likeprestige
how far away from normal my vocal patterns are. I didn't speak until
about 4-5 yrs of age and people had a hard time understanding me up
until 10 yrs of age. Currently I speak extremely well (so I'm told)
but my tone is like REALLY deep and weird, my friends like to joke
about it at times.
On Jul 24, 10:08 pm, likeprestige <plastic...@live.com.au> wrote:
> Hey moe,
>
> Just thought this article may interest you...
>
> --Autism Has Unique Vocal Signature, New Technology Reveals--
>
> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/07/100719162645.htm
>
> regards,
>
> likeprestige
Pontus Granström
Jul 25, 2010, 10:17:42 AM7/25/10
to brain-t...@googlegroups.com
Deep voice? A lot of testosterone?
moe
Jul 25, 2010, 12:17:47 PM7/25/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
I'm actually curious as to where my testosterone levels are, I think
I'll ask about a "T" test next time I see a doctor. My anxiety is
pretty severe, confidence is low with girls and stuff, and at 27 yrs
of age I still don't have much facial hair so I'm not sure where my
testosterone levels are.
On Jul 25, 10:17 am, Pontus Granström <lepon...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Deep voice? A lot of testosterone?
>
I'll ask about a "T" test next time I see a doctor. My anxiety is
pretty severe, confidence is low with girls and stuff, and at 27 yrs
of age I still don't have much facial hair so I'm not sure where my
testosterone levels are.
On Jul 25, 10:17 am, Pontus Granström <lepon...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Deep voice? A lot of testosterone?
>
Pontus Granström
Jul 25, 2010, 12:34:20 PM7/25/10
to brain-t...@googlegroups.com
Facial hair is not necessarily linked to testosterone, look at the
Indians they've got no facial hair. Poor facial hair can be a result
of many things including genetics indecent to testosterone production,
which naturally changes depending on what you do. There are things
that increases testosterone as well as lowers it. A deeper voice is
usually the result of thicker chords which is linked to
puberty/testosterone etc, but why not ask your doctor about this.
Indians they've got no facial hair. Poor facial hair can be a result
of many things including genetics indecent to testosterone production,
which naturally changes depending on what you do. There are things
that increases testosterone as well as lowers it. A deeper voice is
usually the result of thicker chords which is linked to
puberty/testosterone etc, but why not ask your doctor about this.
Lou
Jul 27, 2010, 7:30:35 AM7/27/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Here is a site to help you learn some vocabulary:
http://www.hotforwords.com/chronological-list/ Being entertained on
multiple levels while learning might help both with retention and the
desire to continue learning.
http://www.hotforwords.com/chronological-list/ Being entertained on
multiple levels while learning might help both with retention and the
desire to continue learning.
iwan tulijef
Aug 30, 2010, 11:19:54 AM8/30/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Can someone explain me, how siginifiant this test is in his
explanatory power? I scored 146 sd15 and the website says this
indicates a profound giftness for this kind of problems. But for me it
seems in an time unlimited test you can solve every puzzle if you take
yourself the time.
iwan
On 9 Jul., 13:26, moe <lindasmit...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> The tri 52 has been revised recently, it's now called the Jouve-
> Cerebrals test of induction (JCTI) and it's located under the test
> menu. This revised version consists of the same problems as the tri
>
> > --
> > gwern
explanatory power? I scored 146 sd15 and the website says this
indicates a profound giftness for this kind of problems. But for me it
seems in an time unlimited test you can solve every puzzle if you take
yourself the time.
iwan
On 9 Jul., 13:26, moe <lindasmit...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> The tri 52 has been revised recently, it's now called the Jouve-
> Cerebrals test of induction (JCTI) and it's located under the test
> 52 but it adapts to the user.
>
> On Jul 9, 6:16 am, Gwern Branwen <gwe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> > On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 10:52 PM, moe <lindasmit...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> > > After 6 months of training I decided to take the tri 52 again and
> > On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 10:52 PM, moe <lindasmit...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> > > After 6 months of training I decided to take the tri 52 again and
> > > there has been no improvement in intelligence (or should I say
> > > abstract reasoning ability), I'm still at 144 sd15 on that test. My
> > > digit span has gone up a bit from 9 forward 8 reverse to between 10-12
> > > forward and reverse depending on how I'm feeling. I'm still not sure
> > > if the improvements in digit span are genuine memory improvements or
> > > increased skill at chunking. I think I'll continue with my quad
> > > routine as it seems to be strengthening my concentration in a way dual
> > > has not.
>
> > > I guess in my case abstract reasoning ability is fixed and there's
> > > forward and reverse depending on how I'm feeling. I'm still not sure
> > > if the improvements in digit span are genuine memory improvements or
> > > increased skill at chunking. I think I'll continue with my quad
> > > routine as it seems to be strengthening my concentration in a way dual
> > > has not.
>
> > > nothing I can do about it.
>
> > Where does one take thistri52? The closest I found washttp://www.cerebrals.org/wp/?p=1whichjust descirbes it.
>
>
> > --
> > gwern
Pontus Granström
Aug 30, 2010, 12:06:12 PM8/30/10
to brain-t...@googlegroups.com
That's why IQ-tests comes with time limits! This especially true for differentiating in above average capability groups.
>
> > --
> > gwern
hansblixx
Aug 30, 2010, 12:13:08 PM8/30/10
to brain-t...@googlegroups.com
So does this test makes any sense?
moe
Aug 30, 2010, 4:03:23 PM8/30/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
I don't think that time spent matter much with these "power tests".
In fact many test designers encourage spending as much time as needed
to reach max score.
BTW after today I'll be done with this vocab endeavor. At 100 words
per day (some days 200) with breaks every few days or so this endeavor
still seems to have taken an inordinate amount of time to finish. I
guess it was worth it though as my comprehension has subjectively
improved a bit, overall I feel a bit sharper, and I do not have to
open up the dictionary as much as before. What's funny is that after
changing a minor detail in the memorization process I was able to
commit 100 words to memory in a little over an hour instead of 4
hours. Well.. I'm not sure if I can count it as an hour as it takes
about 1.5-2 hrs to transfer the information to flash cards (I'm a slow
writer) then it takes about a hour to commit the words to memory. Now
if I were using pre made flash cards I'm still not sure If the entire
process would take an hour as I think that the act of writing the
words and definitions down aid in committing them to memory.
Now that I'm through with the vocab I'll probably spend my free time
learning higher level math/physics.
In fact many test designers encourage spending as much time as needed
to reach max score.
BTW after today I'll be done with this vocab endeavor. At 100 words
per day (some days 200) with breaks every few days or so this endeavor
still seems to have taken an inordinate amount of time to finish. I
guess it was worth it though as my comprehension has subjectively
improved a bit, overall I feel a bit sharper, and I do not have to
open up the dictionary as much as before. What's funny is that after
changing a minor detail in the memorization process I was able to
commit 100 words to memory in a little over an hour instead of 4
hours. Well.. I'm not sure if I can count it as an hour as it takes
about 1.5-2 hrs to transfer the information to flash cards (I'm a slow
writer) then it takes about a hour to commit the words to memory. Now
if I were using pre made flash cards I'm still not sure If the entire
process would take an hour as I think that the act of writing the
words and definitions down aid in committing them to memory.
Now that I'm through with the vocab I'll probably spend my free time
learning higher level math/physics.
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