Re: IQ test improvement

[whoisbambam]

amazing, truly

wish i could make some similar improvement

120 would be fine to me

:)



On Oct 9, 5:01 am, genvirO <carsthatdr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Thought this should be mentioned:
>
> iqtest.dk (english)
>
> I first attempted this test more than 2 years ago where I obtained a
> score of between 110-115.
>
> I attempted this test again today where I achieved a score of 138.

[Gwern Branwen]

On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 6:01 AM, genvirO <carsth...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Thought this should be mentioned:
>
> iqtest.dk (english)
>
> I first attempted this test more than 2 years ago where I obtained a
> score of between 110-115.
>
> I attempted this test again today where I achieved a score of 138.

So what level difference does the 2 years cover?

--
gwern
http://www.gwern.net

[☉]

Not so surprising if you actually factored in your age (i.e., maturation is a confound); Gf tends to peak in one's mid 20's.

argumzio

[Arky]

That's what I thought, but I have no idea of the rate of maturation or
whether a two standard deviation increase would be expected during
this time.

[☉]

Well, there are several other factors to consider, i.e., practice effects from similar tests previously taken, improvement to overall health as compared to two years ago, nutrition which may positively or negatively affect performance at the time of testing, motivation to do better, etc. It is for these and other reasons that anecdotes along these lines become unreliable, especially over such a broad length of time. In a sense, one wonders why people are so interested in them since the mode of inference concordant with their popularity is invalid in many specific ways.

Then you have certain views that regard initial test scores to be the more or less genuine measure of ability within the test construct, which is also why one might find tests being split in various studies to counteract any possible learning effect.

Anyway, iqtest.dk is pretty much old hat since 2 years ago. Such a timescale exists for the Flynn effect, I'm pretty sure.

argumzio

On Sunday, October 9, 2011 6:09:01 PM UTC-5, Arky wrote:

That's what I thought, but I have no idea of the rate of maturation or
whether a two standard deviation increase would be expected during
this time.

[Gwern Branwen]

On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 8:32 PM, genvirO <carsth...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I recognize the limitations, however I just thought it was worth
> mentioning.

So again, how many levels did you go in between the 2 IQ tests?

--
gwern
http://www.gwern.net

[Aman Idle]

you're the hardest to convince lol.

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[whoisbambam]

multiple countries?
how old are you, what countries in what time period, and perhaps an
explanation as to 'why' and 'how'--i would think constant moving on a
country level would be an expensive, tedious, culturally, language
issue, and otherwise convuluted process.

now i forgot your primary language, country of origin, background,
etc.

where do u plan on 'settling'?

i guess that may influence ur eligibilty for med school too if not
carefully planned.


as for those game modes, i dont know what those are (settings, etc)
nor how to do them. i just do dnb

pnb + anb = dnb?

not familiar with ur settings, exactly.

if u r at dnb8, what are ur pnb and anb levels"
10?

i suspect the other post may be insightful.

first, i am thinking u may have had some sort of neurological deficit
that may have had something to do with attention that u may have
overcome

second, there is indeed practice effects to consider with anything
humans do

third, ur brain probably has grown, as it is true that some
development can continue until about age 25 (average)

fourth, there may have been nutritional and stress issues involved

fifth, 'mindset' or 'motivation' or 'i KNOW i have improved'--this
concept of predetermined destiny may have had some influence

having said all that, it is certainly a large jump that i am not sure
all these things could account for--but certainly by 10points, in
combination. possibly 15.

but we are talking about 23+ points

that seems to defy my rationalizations more than i am convinced of
myself (in other words, my rationalizations dont seem to be able to
account for all that gain, in its best case scenario)






On Oct 9, 8:05 pm, genvirO <carsthatdr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> N-level: Well, as most of you may know, overtime I've very much just
> been rolling around in the mud of what BW has to offer, so because I
> haven't stayed in one country long enough to call it home, it's pretty
> much impossible for me to attribute my new 'world view' to one
> particular mode or another (whether or not this has played a part or n-
> back at all, I cannot say, however if the waters right I could maybe
> make a case for it), therefore I can only approach this
> holistically...
>
> ;)
>
> DNB: 4-back - 8-back = Time taken to reach level, 10+ months
> Quad-n-back: 2-back - 6-back     =  Time taken to reach level, between
> 6-8 months
> Variable-arithmetic n-back: 3-back - 7-back = Time taken to reach
> level, between 3-4 months.
>
> There are other modes to consider, however due to time being an
> important variable I decided to obviously exclude them.
>
> It may be worth mentioning what modes I currently train on:
>
> On average: 30 minutes per mode, per day.
>
> 1. Quadruple-stim, position, __colour__, sound, sound2
> =1.30 sec trials, 60 seconds for each session
>
> 2. Position, image
> = 5 sec trials, 10 minutes for each session
>
> 3. Sound-n-back
> =3 sec trials, 6 minutes for each session
>
> 4. Variable-Arithmetic n-back
> = 3 sec trials, 10 minutes for each session
>
> On Oct 10, 11:34 am, Gwern Branwen <gwe...@gmail.com> wrote:

[☉]

On Sunday, October 9, 2011 8:42:32 PM UTC-5, whoisbambam wrote:

but we are talking about 23+ points

that seems to defy my rationalizations more than i am convinced of
myself (in other words, my rationalizations dont seem to be able to
account for all that gain, in its best case scenario)

It may be easy to convince oneself of that, but it is dangerous to convince oneself in the light of only one example. You're simply underestimating how much someone can learn in taking a test. The real question: does it reflect a substantial increase? I.e., does it reflect an unalloyed improvement on one dimension of the test construct? Doubtfully.

argumzio

[Colin Dickerman]

That's amazing.

[whoisbambam]

argumzio,

make no mistake: i have learnt to remain skeptical with both small
studies and anectdotal testimony, despite my strong desire to
'believe' something may improve cognition.

:)

hell, now i am thinking about memory systems more.

perhaps dominic obrien.

but, yes, he can remember 1000 names of ppl in minutes, a deck or two
of cards in short order, and long strings of numbers, etc., but i am
still concerned as to how this can transfer to the university (the
learning of new information at a better, more effective rate/method)

for me, it is important to remember information faster/longer, moreso
than it is to improve my 'IQ', but they also seem related--but perhaps
there is a way to make the best of what we already have thru memory
systems, i dunno.


i have recently been reviewing information for a few national board
exams i desperately need to take to get my 'career' back. i have been
watching some videos from 3 lecturers, two of which are extremely
similar (i imagine the one guy either stole or had permission to use
the other guy's stuff), but one provides more 'why' and less
comprehensive

for instance, he tells me why you shouldnt give beta blockers to a
cocaine overdose--because then they would become alpha dependent
(cause u blocked alpha1, and possibly alpha2 in the case of
nonselective beta blockers), possibly an unctrollable hypertensive/
tachycardic crisis leading to intracerebral hemorrhage, etc as a
possibility, wherein the other guy just says 'dont give beta blockers'

because of the provided physiology, i 'understand' the concept and it
is MUCH easier for me to remember, despite the additional information
(and i studied the guy with less patho first, twice)

so i am basically watching these three lecturers now at 1.85-2 times
speed after the first round, some videos 2-3times

however, i am thinking that 'some' ppl just went to a 2-3 day
workshop, saw these guys talk once, and perhaps they retain this
information with just one viewing, and i find this disconcerting.

i would prefer to be more like that, being able to retain more
information watching a lecture once, like perhaps is the case at the
university.

:(

if, however, u give me a book, and i can write in the book, and as i
do this i write questions and answers (the answer may be written
twice, once in its entirety, once with just the first letter of each
word in the answer), my recall is extraordinary.

but very tedious indeed. i would have to record each lecturer, dictate
the content, read, formulate questions/answers, etc.

:(

but this active recall method wherein i have to 'retrieve' the
information is most interesting and effective for me. i dunno if it is
because i am using some kinesthetic issue with writing, or if it is
cause of active recall, or what.

i will usually get an A or perhaps a B with this method.

other classmates do nothing but write the notes and review it once or
twice, and can get a C or B-, unless they are gifted.

I would get an F with that method, indeed.

and thus my quest that ended me up here in this forum using dnb and my
use of dozens of useless supplements.

On Oct 9, 10:22 pm, ☉ <argum...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, October 9, 2011 8:42:32 PM UTC-5, whoisbambam wrote:
> > but we are talking about 23+ points
>
> > that seems to defy my rationalizations more than i am convinced of
> > myself (in other words, my rationalizations dont seem to be able to
> > account for all that gain, in its best case scenario)

> > <http://www.gwern.net>

[Colin Dickerman]

[☉]

Okay, just making sure.

I can't really say. I took the test a few years ago and got one answer wrong (143), so I can only say it is absurdly easy from the start, but it's all relative.

Your other points are a bit off-topic, and I'm not really sure how to answer to them in general, because I find my means of "studying" is just looking at information a few times (not really concentrating that hard) and it just sticks fairly well afterward.

argumzio

[whoisbambam]

yeah, i know--i have met several ppl like that.

:)

that is what can happen when your iq is around 130 to 145

it seems beyond 145 and i have seen 'other' issues that offset the
'advantage' of said iq number and beyond.

just personal experience, of course.


yes, off topic. personal issue related to my lower iq.

[Pontus Granström]

I am not surprised at all that n-back seem to improve this type of test taking. But I am more and more asking myself what does it has to do with reasoning? You are ask to find
simple rules for the movement sometimes masked in presentational difficult ways where as the mathematical principle if using verbal tags or number would be very simple.
I am not doubting that it correlates with IQ, since speed and working memory constitutes it but that it should be a gold measure of your ability to reason? I think not.
It's not even close to real scientific reasoning or number series. Same goes with the problems I get in the popular magainze, they are nothing more than WMC tests in disguised.

I did the test for fun (iqtest.dk) in one speed session (10 min) and got 126. I do not doubt that if I used the whole time that I would ace it. In general I think that n-backers
will find the tests very easy after a few weeks of training and I do not doubt that n-backing indeed improves the skill no matter how you measure it.

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[☉]

On Monday, October 10, 2011 12:24:29 AM UTC-5, King Of The Stars wrote:

I did the test for fun (iqtest.dk) in one speed session (10 min) and got 126. I do not doubt that if I used the whole time that I would ace it. In general I think that n-backers
will find the tests very easy after a few weeks of training and I do not doubt that n-backing indeed improves the skill no matter how you measure it.

It's nice to say, "gee, this test looks easy, yeah, I could definitely ace it." But it is another matter to actually do it; and now that you've taken it, any future result is put into question.

Furthermore, it is not reasonable to declare that there is no "doubt that n-backing indeed improves the skill", whatever that "skill" may be, for obvious, scientifically informed reasons.

argumzio


 

[whoisbambam]

typo
that should have been beta1 and beta2

off topic, lol, of course, but i dont think i can directly edit the
post.

[Pontus Granström]

The ability to find in which sequences objects move or their constraints. I would say that 80% of the test is about movement, and a few tests are about multiple constraints.
Not that hard on a theoretical level but in practice a little bit more than WMC.

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[☉]

To that I would say, fortified by experience, that the world, like any test, has a funny way of behaving in ways we would least expect. That is, it might sound good in theory, but that is no guarantee that it is actually the case. Smoke and mirrors.

argumzio

[whoisbambam]

argumzio is correct in that a single result isnt necessarily
correlative to gains that may be achieved for others, and not
necessarily even for yourself.

i believe the former much more than the latter.

i am not sure what was in 'deficit', but i think u have corrected it
and are now reaching closer to ur inborn potential

that is the best case scenario.

:)

unless 1000 random ppl can duplicate ur achievements, preferrably
utilizing the scientific methods accepted by researchers today, rather
than anectdotal, there isnt much to be learnt from this, objectively.


nonetheless, i am very glad to see that u have 'appeared' to improve
drastically.

i say it is time to stop posting in forums, stop moving, re-focus ur
efforts on the sciences, mathematics, and language, and prepare urself
for medical school--set a timeline, utilize a daily planner/monthly
planner, set the goals, achieve them, cross them off.

perhaps khanacademy may be one starting point. perhaps supermemo.eu

perhaps a memory system for associations

and dont look back




On Oct 10, 1:48 am, genvirO <carsthatdr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Another report:
>
> Cambridge Brain Sciences
> --------------------------------------
>
> Odd-One-Out (OOO) task.
>
> First scored 12, May 26, 2010. I know this because I am reflecting on
> a post I made at at this time.
>
> = "I've taken the test once, score = 12... Seems I'm not as
> intelligent
> as I initially thought. "
>
> Today I scored 21.
>
> I'd say that's a pretty decent improvement. So, if the OOO task is any
> indication of fluid intelligence...
>
>  More options May 26 2010, 10:58 am

[☉]

Your point being?

As one might see elsewhere, "Cool story, bro".

argumzio

[☉]

Perhaps if you reflected on the fact that forum-goers are guided by the dim notion of improving intelligence (at some minute level). The self-aggrandizing posting of scores demonstrates close to nil, really, and if we all came here to gloat, there'd be little more to concern ourselves than obsessively taking tests, retaking tests, and building up a mass derangement and degradation of the forum.

Personally, the results you've shared don't seem terribly interesting, and they're not very well documented instances of what n-back's influence might be, since you don't share much other information of what has changed in your life for 2 years. Furthermore, you don't tell us how many sessions you've logged for each mode, which is much more specific and useful information than a vague span of time like "x amount of months". Unfortunately, there has to be a point, or it's a waste of our time.

The mood is more than lightened. It is so bright and light that no shadows dance on the wall.

argumzio

On Monday, October 10, 2011 2:12:24 AM UTC-5, genvirO wrote:

"unless 1000 random ppl can duplicate ur achievements, preferrably
utilizing the scientific methods accepted by researchers today,
rather
than anectdotal, there isnt much to be learnt from this, objectively.
"

We already know this. I don't understand what all the sand bagging is
about.

[☉]

Hmm... "IQ test improvement". Really? I wonder if that's what this is about. Maybe: "The figure behind likeprestige's test scores, whether they're real or not, who cares? But we might find out in this month's episode, so stay tuned!"

The elevated nature of your response just about sums up the entire past, present, and future of this thread. I hope you enjoy yourself.

argumzio


On Monday, October 10, 2011 2:17:50 AM UTC-5, genvirO wrote:

Did you bother to read the title of the thread?

Does it say: "Radicool video clips of some awesome dudes showin' how
to rip it up on the surf!"

I don't think so. My advice to you is that you never choose to cut
your own hair otherwise I fathom that something could perhaps go
drastically wrong.Oh diddums...

Tongue in cheek, let's lighten the mood now shall we!

[☉]

I would say judging from this further response that I don't trust any data given by you. But, hey, that's me. Anyway, take no offense, but I don't trust anecdotes, as I've said in the past on numerous occassions.

Hint to Gwern: there's a gaping hole in the firewall for selecting anecdotes.

argumzio


On Monday, October 10, 2011 2:49:18 AM UTC-5, genvirO wrote:

There are no walls per se, argumzio, only the mirrors that surround
you (kid, kid).

Forgive me while I depart from answering any of your conjecture that's
analogous to vomit landing on a well cooked meal; all I'll say is that
Gwern collects data in relation to pre-post IQ scores. So what I do, I
follow due course by providing my results.

Hardly self-aggrandizing, but perhaps I missed something where by I
said something along the lines of: "Did you see what I just did? Did
you see it? I doubt it, so I'll tell you! I just got a whole in one
biatch. No no, make that swish from half-court, ohhhhh baby did you
catch the sweat that's trying to make a run for it now away from your
body and on to mine because it knows where the "real funk" is. That's
right, I got funk, biatch!".

Nope. Well, now there is but it's there for demonstrative purposes
only.

"since you don't share much other information of what has changed in
your life for 2 years."

If there was "change" I'd provide it. I'm sorry I didn't give you a
prescription for the flu considering you have a sore ankle.

"you don't tell us how many sessions you've logged for each mode, "

Unfortunately I am unable to be this specific, sorry, I certainly see
how being pedantic here could help. Nevertheless, I will see if I can
try and work 'something' out by tomorrow. Bear in mind though, it will
only be an estimation and thus not as tight as a straitjacket, which
is something that I regret.

[☉]

likeprestige, it's only a matter of principle. Again, if you feel offended, please do not. I never intend to do so. I only raise a general concern here that should be minded in all sincerity.

argumzio, smiling inwardly


On Monday, October 10, 2011 2:58:50 AM UTC-5, genvirO wrote:

I'd love to make more jokes with you but to be honest I really just
don't know what problem you've had with what I've said about this, to
date.

[whoisbambam]

lol.
i believe u mentioned something that may have been construed as a
'deficit' at some time here--perhaps it had something to do with
reading comprehension/analysis

it isnt really important, however.

i told u i was rationalizing

perhaps u r not too familiar with psychology (again, not really
important, speculative)

perhaps u had NO deficits of anykind, and u r not any aberration, and
all who do what u have done will see such stellar results.

honestly, i dont know the contrary--just using my own innate faculties
to try to see clearly thru the entanglement that cognitive self-
improvement brings me thru/into, trying to not be unduly influenced,
remaining objective, etc

nothing personal

by all means, dont focus, spend ur hours here posting ad nauseum. it
is the nature of younger men to be like that. defiance gets in the way
of older folks too, but unfortunately i have seen many a life wasted,
delayed, or worse.

do continue posting incessantly, indeed.

if u truly can not see the distractions, and ur behaviour ignores
advise as 'please stop', lol, do what u must--it is, after all, ur
right, defiantly or altruistically, to do so

be well.

seems to me, lol, and this is speculative, that u r less 'balanced'
nowadays.

but be well anyway.

i have no beef with u.

yet

email me privately if u wish to make it a beef.

i will accomodate u without distracting others in this forum.

i hope that sounds defiant enough for u.

relate do u?

a better language to understand?

give me a break.

rebalance, or not.


i think, however, u will just continue the rant here, doing nothing,
net effect. no med school, no increase in knowledge that u can
meaningfully take advantage of or serve, nor come to me with ur beef.
inaction. inaction. many a life story that infliction is.

but, if that is what makes u well, then, be well.

please, stop.

On Oct 10, 2:58 am, genvirO <carsthatdr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I'd love to make more jokes with you but to be honest I really just
> don't know what problem you've had with what I've said about this, to
> date.
>

[J.]

@Whoisbambam
I know you have the best intentions, but, dude... he's spending like 2
hours a day training his brain and you're lecturing him on inaction?
I think your advice just came off as condescending and an unprovoked
and seemingly random "attack" on his character, though I'm sure that
was entirely unintended (for some reason I expect people in this forum
to see sly sarcasm in posts, so I'm just putting up a disclaimer that
I actually DO HONESTLY think you have good intentions. Maybe Argumzio
has created that expectation here). Maybe all you were trying to say
was "Genviro, job completed! You now have a glorious IQ and can do
whatever you want! Fly free and pursue the medical career you have
mentioned to us!". I think it was mostly your phrasing that caused a
bit of a rude tone. I also think you might be misinterpreting and/or
having a conversation with Genviro that you intended to have with
someone else... Most of your passion here seems to be a bit misplaced
considering the contents of this thread, so maybe rethink to whom you
wanted to give this advice? Did Genviro really provoke that response
out of you? (Maybe I'm entirely wrong and if so I apologize. That's
just how I read it and I wanted to share that with you just in case it
gave you any insight).

I think all Genviro was trying to say was that you're unintentionally
crossing a boundary, giving advice where it isn't wanted. at a time
that seemed inappropriate and unexpected.

Also, I believe Genviro's comment that your mentioning of a deficit
was more "suggestive" was merely that he presented score changes and
that was it, where as you went so far as to suggest a specific means
by which these scores may have come about. I don't believe he was
battling you over whether or not such a deficit exists/existed, etc.

That's my little attempt at mediation and I'd rather not get drawn
into this any further, but I hope my efforts helped!

@Genviro
Awesome results ^_^ I hope for your sake and everyone else's that
those gains are real. Were there changes elsewhere in your academic/
intellectual life that corroborate these results?

[whoisbambam]

maybe.

there is no projection on my part. nor life regrets that may be
suppressed and festering.

i see submlimation where sublimation is.

i have been reading in this forum for quite some time, and we are each
allowed to formulate our own opinions, about research, or about
individuals, or about whatever we each please in this non-communistic
society. he has done so, u have done so, and so have i.

i am excited to see likeprestige's increased scores--not just because
of my benevolent nature, but for more self-serving possibilities too,
admittedly--but i will remain steadfast with my reservations, as
argumzio gently reminded me of.

i merely expressed my personal opinion on the matter--every single
thing i write in this forum is nothing other than personal feelings/
beliefs, not facts. i have read personal life-stories of the man. he
is very capable, yet remains, well, i will stop per his request.

i am hopeful that he removes all emotion and reads between the lines
of what i have written (but sadly, i think not.).

u seemed to have felt it, J.

you reacted.

there is no battle here yet. there is no animosity. just an observed
dichotomy between ability and inaction.

:)

but, J., you may have assuaged the intended effect prematurely, and
the lesson may have slipped away.

too bad.

i am not going to try anymore.

i am pretty sure he wont be going on to med school--just a personal
feeling/belief--as is unbalanced, sublimation (fear into endless self-
testing/cognitive improvement, aimlessness etc), over-compensated,
insecure, reactionary, and what have u.

some ppl with anger issues play football, or take up martial arts, or
what have u.

some ppl with FEAR of failure issues take up, well, belaboring.

as for what i wanted--i made that clear. if wrapping things up and
going to med school is a bad thing, then guilty.

now what?

nothing.

sad.

poor Mother Russia. Jen ne sais pais, France??? I am proud to say i
aint an English colony. Thank u, France.

[Gwern Branwen]

On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 3:53 AM, ☉ <argu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hint to Gwern: there's a gaping hole in the firewall for selecting
> anecdotes.

One which I have pointed out in the past at least twice, and also why
I stopped collecting anecdotes which did not come with before/after IQ
scores.

--
gwern
http://www.gwern.net

[☉]

On Monday, October 10, 2011 8:38:13 AM UTC-5, gwern wrote:

One which I have pointed out in the past at least twice, and also why
I stopped collecting anecdotes which did not come with before/after IQ
scores.

Not quite the hint I was getting at, but okay. (The thread is more or less over for me, anyway.)

argumzio

[Simen]

Your improvements are indeed amazing genvirO! Let's just hope it was
the n-backing that caused it and that I one day can see similar
results.