Long term n-back training
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Redux
Dec 24, 2010, 3:24:40 PM12/24/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
From the long-term n-back users, I'd like to know what kind of
progress has been made beyond one full year of regular training (IQ or
any other real world perceived benefits)...
For example, what type of progress was made between 1 year and 1 year
and a half? 1 year and 2 years ? (I understand the sample size could
be small...)
progress has been made beyond one full year of regular training (IQ or
any other real world perceived benefits)...
For example, what type of progress was made between 1 year and 1 year
and a half? 1 year and 2 years ? (I understand the sample size could
be small...)
Pontus Granström
Dec 26, 2010, 5:44:23 AM12/26/10
to brain-t...@googlegroups.com
I've done many thousands of n-back sessions and still experience benefits from it. I have reached dual-8-back, single 9-back and I am currently on triple-4-back (went there the second day).
What I can make of it is that position n-back seemed to make me recall my dreams more often and vividly (speculated that it had to do with more activity in a area that is active during dreaming), which has helped since I know what dreams that cause me to wake up, I were surprised that they were so "non horrifying" and the problem is now almost cured, also I experienced greater ease with spatial problems, since they often require updating of visual information. I do the IQ-test in a popular magazine once or twice a month, which I look at differently now when I know more about different constructs, I tend to look at the problems thorough the eyes of "group discussions" if you understand what I mean. Also I tend to notice when problem solving
feels like n-backing, which happens quite often.
Triple-n-back feels fun and motivating since I haven't reached my max, but hitting the ceiling in any training is of course not good, other than I do feel more clear headed after a good session, I also seem to improve in concentration tests
but haven't been able to break any of my personal speed records like flanker, penguin pursuit and so on. They are at the 99+ percentile so I guess they are fast enough but breaking a personal record is always fun and I believe I can break
at least my flanker record.
What I can make of it is that position n-back seemed to make me recall my dreams more often and vividly (speculated that it had to do with more activity in a area that is active during dreaming), which has helped since I know what dreams that cause me to wake up, I were surprised that they were so "non horrifying" and the problem is now almost cured, also I experienced greater ease with spatial problems, since they often require updating of visual information. I do the IQ-test in a popular magazine once or twice a month, which I look at differently now when I know more about different constructs, I tend to look at the problems thorough the eyes of "group discussions" if you understand what I mean. Also I tend to notice when problem solving
feels like n-backing, which happens quite often.
Triple-n-back feels fun and motivating since I haven't reached my max, but hitting the ceiling in any training is of course not good, other than I do feel more clear headed after a good session, I also seem to improve in concentration tests
but haven't been able to break any of my personal speed records like flanker, penguin pursuit and so on. They are at the 99+ percentile so I guess they are fast enough but breaking a personal record is always fun and I believe I can break
at least my flanker record.
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milestones
Dec 29, 2010, 6:39:38 AM12/29/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
With the caveat that this will most likely vary from person to person,
I'd say that beyond one year of consistent training one will see an
Increase in global intellectual powers as well as minimal to no gains
in the realm of fluid intelligence (which seems to cap out within the
first year of dual n back training). Now I am training quad back
exclusively on an almost daily basis and usually I land at quad 4 back
at 60-75%. (I have not hit 5 back yet). I no longer train (regularly)
with dual n back. The gains I'm seeing are: faster encoding speed;
faster and more accurate retrieval of data from long term memory; as
well as an increase in data-sequencing speed (the latter is a relative
weakness of mine that now seems to have been helped by consistent quad-
back training -- though I've not tested any transfer so this is
subjective). Also, though my fluid intelligence has probably ceased
gaining, it seems I'm functioning at higher bands of ability far more
regularly -- even when I'm tired or sluggish.
All in all, far better global functioning, particularly executive
control with quad back that did not seem to come about by dint of dual
n back training. However, I am glad I went through a rigorous training
with dual n back in my first year (reached a high of 10 back). Dual n
back offers the attentionally-challenged the ability to focus in a way
that will keeps the mind from wandering. It will break it out of
televison-trance mode, and will offer most people capable of
benefitting from it, a radical shift toward greater focus....just
don't forget that there are steeper and steeper stairways that lie
ahead after dual n back.
My thoughts on dual n back training are somewhat controversial --I
think one should do whatever is possible at the outset of the training
to reach as high an N level as possible as opposed to playing
intuitively...therefore this involves some sort of strategy to help
with tracking audio and visual. But, once hard work and strategy pay
off and a high N level is reached, then I'd say it's time to cut the
cord and move on to another variation of N back that will obviate the
use of old strategy...probably tri-back or just move right on to quad.
I plan on doing quad back for a while longer, maybe a few more months
or more, and then move to pent. back and so on and on. At this point,
my strategy is not to jump around but rather to train in one mode only
for months at a time and then move to something else. Some say
constant novelty as the optimal way to train. However, that is not my
approach for long term training...though soon I will alternate crab-
quad back training in with regular quad back training.
I'd say that beyond one year of consistent training one will see an
Increase in global intellectual powers as well as minimal to no gains
in the realm of fluid intelligence (which seems to cap out within the
first year of dual n back training). Now I am training quad back
exclusively on an almost daily basis and usually I land at quad 4 back
at 60-75%. (I have not hit 5 back yet). I no longer train (regularly)
with dual n back. The gains I'm seeing are: faster encoding speed;
faster and more accurate retrieval of data from long term memory; as
well as an increase in data-sequencing speed (the latter is a relative
weakness of mine that now seems to have been helped by consistent quad-
back training -- though I've not tested any transfer so this is
subjective). Also, though my fluid intelligence has probably ceased
gaining, it seems I'm functioning at higher bands of ability far more
regularly -- even when I'm tired or sluggish.
All in all, far better global functioning, particularly executive
control with quad back that did not seem to come about by dint of dual
n back training. However, I am glad I went through a rigorous training
with dual n back in my first year (reached a high of 10 back). Dual n
back offers the attentionally-challenged the ability to focus in a way
that will keeps the mind from wandering. It will break it out of
televison-trance mode, and will offer most people capable of
benefitting from it, a radical shift toward greater focus....just
don't forget that there are steeper and steeper stairways that lie
ahead after dual n back.
My thoughts on dual n back training are somewhat controversial --I
think one should do whatever is possible at the outset of the training
to reach as high an N level as possible as opposed to playing
intuitively...therefore this involves some sort of strategy to help
with tracking audio and visual. But, once hard work and strategy pay
off and a high N level is reached, then I'd say it's time to cut the
cord and move on to another variation of N back that will obviate the
use of old strategy...probably tri-back or just move right on to quad.
I plan on doing quad back for a while longer, maybe a few more months
or more, and then move to pent. back and so on and on. At this point,
my strategy is not to jump around but rather to train in one mode only
for months at a time and then move to something else. Some say
constant novelty as the optimal way to train. However, that is not my
approach for long term training...though soon I will alternate crab-
quad back training in with regular quad back training.
polar
Dec 29, 2010, 10:16:58 AM12/29/10
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Hi, why not repeat things sometimes :) I do n-back for more than two
years now, cca 5 times per week, varying between different modes
(including rotational spiNback). Did my gf improved? Absolutely. Do I
know precisely how much? No, but given my experiences and school, I
can make a very probable, honest, and educated guess: I gained no less
then 0.5 SD, and no more then 1 SD. Taking mensa scoring (rapm II),
this means I gained something between 7 and 15 points of iq - let's
say 7. Seven points of iq is A LOT. And consider, that a) I
experienced most of the progress during first two-three months (after
that it's mostly maintainance) b) I do only 20 minutes a day.
From my point of view, it's very similar to exercising - when you do
jogging or bodybuilding 20 minutes daily, your condition improves to
meet the challenge - and stays there. You can of course try to run
faster and lift heavier weights, but n-back already is adaptive, so
only variable that really counts is time. I experienced clear
improvements in concentration, will-power (less procrastination, you
can call it motivation), memory (both stm and ltm) and mood too. On
the other hand, it's a kind of addiction - very healthy of course and
not too serious, but you should be aware of that when trying to do
more than 30 minutes a day. Like with heavy exercising or sprinting
for 30 minutes a day, you get those benefits (muscles, less anxiety
etc.), but you'll experience "runners blue" when you cut it from day
to day (example http://www.news-medical.net/news/20090817/Running-and-addiction.aspx
- and n-back even directly changes your dopaminergic physiology in
brain). Nevertheless, we were born to run, we were born to use our
intellect, and using it is the best way to keep it. So nevermind
evergrowing muscles, or some gains in one's vague potential (cause iq
is just that, no more), I do my daily fittness, and it simply works
for me, that's all.
years now, cca 5 times per week, varying between different modes
(including rotational spiNback). Did my gf improved? Absolutely. Do I
know precisely how much? No, but given my experiences and school, I
can make a very probable, honest, and educated guess: I gained no less
then 0.5 SD, and no more then 1 SD. Taking mensa scoring (rapm II),
this means I gained something between 7 and 15 points of iq - let's
say 7. Seven points of iq is A LOT. And consider, that a) I
experienced most of the progress during first two-three months (after
that it's mostly maintainance) b) I do only 20 minutes a day.
From my point of view, it's very similar to exercising - when you do
jogging or bodybuilding 20 minutes daily, your condition improves to
meet the challenge - and stays there. You can of course try to run
faster and lift heavier weights, but n-back already is adaptive, so
only variable that really counts is time. I experienced clear
improvements in concentration, will-power (less procrastination, you
can call it motivation), memory (both stm and ltm) and mood too. On
the other hand, it's a kind of addiction - very healthy of course and
not too serious, but you should be aware of that when trying to do
more than 30 minutes a day. Like with heavy exercising or sprinting
for 30 minutes a day, you get those benefits (muscles, less anxiety
etc.), but you'll experience "runners blue" when you cut it from day
to day (example http://www.news-medical.net/news/20090817/Running-and-addiction.aspx
- and n-back even directly changes your dopaminergic physiology in
brain). Nevertheless, we were born to run, we were born to use our
intellect, and using it is the best way to keep it. So nevermind
evergrowing muscles, or some gains in one's vague potential (cause iq
is just that, no more), I do my daily fittness, and it simply works
for me, that's all.
milestones
Jan 2, 2011, 2:58:52 AM1/2/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Last night I retook the iqtest.org.uk and scored higher on a second
try than I did a few months ago -- 145 up from 133. This could be due
to 1) consistent quad back practice 2) being back on creatine as I
have been for the last month 3) Omega 3/epa/fish oil 4) just a normal
swing in scores due to other factors, including familiarity with the
items. Or, of course, maybe some combination of the above. Not being
given any information whatsoever on this particular test, I don't know
what to make of the results but I thought it worth mentioning.
try than I did a few months ago -- 145 up from 133. This could be due
to 1) consistent quad back practice 2) being back on creatine as I
have been for the last month 3) Omega 3/epa/fish oil 4) just a normal
swing in scores due to other factors, including familiarity with the
items. Or, of course, maybe some combination of the above. Not being
given any information whatsoever on this particular test, I don't know
what to make of the results but I thought it worth mentioning.
John Crook
Jan 2, 2011, 8:58:00 AM1/2/11
to brain-t...@googlegroups.com
wow, that's a big change. well done.
moe
Jan 2, 2011, 1:43:48 PM1/2/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Nice improvement Will. I vowed not to take anymore IQ tests for
various reasons but I was bored so I took the one listed in your post
a few minutes ago. Got 139 on this one and I'm wondering if I've made
an improvement in speeded reasoning. On heavily speeded tests that
I've taken in the past I've only scored around 130 so I'd like to
think that I've gotten faster but different tests can't be compared so
iunno.
various reasons but I was bored so I took the one listed in your post
a few minutes ago. Got 139 on this one and I'm wondering if I've made
an improvement in speeded reasoning. On heavily speeded tests that
I've taken in the past I've only scored around 130 so I'd like to
think that I've gotten faster but different tests can't be compared so
iunno.
Oinchack'Olp
Jan 4, 2011, 12:33:24 PM1/4/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
I took that test at iqtest.org.uk the day before yesterday (= January
2nd 2011) and scored 142. But according to the intelligence-cannot-be-
increased-dogma, that's simply not possible, because in the past I
always scored ~119 on iq tests.
2nd 2011) and scored 142. But according to the intelligence-cannot-be-
increased-dogma, that's simply not possible, because in the past I
always scored ~119 on iq tests.
αrgvmziΩ σV
Jan 4, 2011, 1:07:27 PM1/4/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Different scores on different tests are seen all the time. Nothing
astonishing there in the least, because it is very rare for any two
tests to have a perfect correlation with each other. (Some tests do in
fact have a near-perfect correlation, however.) I seriously doubt
there's any sort of dogma involved here, just lack of understanding of
the mathematics and concepts involved in psychometrics.
argumzio
astonishing there in the least, because it is very rare for any two
tests to have a perfect correlation with each other. (Some tests do in
fact have a near-perfect correlation, however.) I seriously doubt
there's any sort of dogma involved here, just lack of understanding of
the mathematics and concepts involved in psychometrics.
argumzio
Jelani Sims
Jan 4, 2011, 1:12:11 PM1/4/11
to brain-t...@googlegroups.com
A change from 119 into 142 is much more then just an expected variation.
On Jan 4, 2011 1:07 PM, "αrgvmziΩ σV" <argu...@gmail.com> wrote:
Different scores on different tests are seen all the time. Nothing
astonishing there in the least, because it is very rare for any two
tests to have a perfect correlation with each other. (Some tests do in
fact have a near-perfect correlation, however.) I seriously doubt
there's any sort of dogma involved here, just lack of understanding of
the mathematics and concepts involved in psychometrics.
argumzio
On Jan 4, 11:33 am, "Oinchack'Olp" <motsog...@yahoo.de> wrote:
> I took that test at iqtest.org.uk...
αrgvmziΩ σV
Jan 4, 2011, 1:19:01 PM1/4/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Sure, if you actually knew what "tests" he took before. Not all tests
are legitimate to begin with.
No point in making a quibble about details that don't exist.
argumzio
On Jan 4, 12:12 pm, Jelani Sims <gouki...@gmail.com> wrote:
> A change from 119 into 142 is much more then just an expected variation.
>
are legitimate to begin with.
No point in making a quibble about details that don't exist.
argumzio
On Jan 4, 12:12 pm, Jelani Sims <gouki...@gmail.com> wrote:
> A change from 119 into 142 is much more then just an expected variation.
>
Felipe Beijamini
Jan 4, 2011, 1:27:14 PM1/4/11
to brain-t...@googlegroups.com
I still don´t believe so much that this IQ test can really show how smart, or intelligent people are.
--
Felipe Beijamini
Laboratório de Cronobiologia Humana
Departamento de Fisiologia
Setor de Ciências Biológicas
Universidade Federal do Paraná - UFPR
Curitiba - PR - Brasil
I will try to explain why.
I believe intelligence is much more than logical or mathematical questions. All of these IQ test are based on logical and mathematical problems, so then this IQ test may be good to evaluate how good are people in solve this kind of problem, but I think these test fail in evaluate creativity or another skills.
I think we do not have only THE intelligence, but we can have many kinds of intelligence (musical intelligence, sports intelligence, mathematical AND/OR logical intelligence, linguistic intelligence). Some people can be very good in solve problems like the problems showed in IQ test, otherwise the same person can not be good to understand an abstract problem.
I Hope I make me understand. (I will take some English classes ASAP)
Felipe.
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Felipe Beijamini
Laboratório de Cronobiologia Humana
Departamento de Fisiologia
Setor de Ciências Biológicas
Universidade Federal do Paraná - UFPR
Curitiba - PR - Brasil
ailambris
Jan 4, 2011, 1:29:01 AM1/4/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
I'm having trouble seeing that an improvement in score by way of
retake is any improvement at all. I don't mean to sound caustic, but
it just doesn't make sense for the simple reason that there is a
limited amount of time given to complete the test in the first place.
Now, if you've taken it, it is probably with little difficulty that
you remember those problems that you struggled with. As a consequence,
you are likely solving these mini-puzzles even after you've left the
exam and have moved onto some other activity. It's called rumination.
What I think is most interesting actually, is that we have all become
accustomed now to the Ravens style. When I see these problems,
automatically I am checking for addition, subtraction, rotation
operations. I think that in some way this is a failure, on my part, to
demonstrate novelty of intellect, to demonstrate the fluidity of my
intelligence. I have almost tainted any future attempt of measurement,
because I am so well acquainted now with the style of the exam.
All of this aside: has anyone noticed improvement by way of physical
exercise? Was it high or low intensity, long or short duration? What
about alcohol--has anyone noticed that small amounts prime them also
for thought?
retake is any improvement at all. I don't mean to sound caustic, but
it just doesn't make sense for the simple reason that there is a
limited amount of time given to complete the test in the first place.
Now, if you've taken it, it is probably with little difficulty that
you remember those problems that you struggled with. As a consequence,
you are likely solving these mini-puzzles even after you've left the
exam and have moved onto some other activity. It's called rumination.
What I think is most interesting actually, is that we have all become
accustomed now to the Ravens style. When I see these problems,
automatically I am checking for addition, subtraction, rotation
operations. I think that in some way this is a failure, on my part, to
demonstrate novelty of intellect, to demonstrate the fluidity of my
intelligence. I have almost tainted any future attempt of measurement,
because I am so well acquainted now with the style of the exam.
All of this aside: has anyone noticed improvement by way of physical
exercise? Was it high or low intensity, long or short duration? What
about alcohol--has anyone noticed that small amounts prime them also
for thought?
kriegerlie
Jan 7, 2011, 5:15:10 PM1/7/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
i have noticed with alcohol (very little) my train of though seems a
little less cloudy...is this what you mean?
On Jan 4, 6:29 am, ailambris <ailamb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm having trouble seeing that an improvement in score by way of
> retake is any improvement at all. I don't mean to sound caustic, but
> it just doesn't make sense for the simple reason that there is a
> limited amount of time given to complete the test in the first place.
> Now, if you've taken it, it is probably with little difficulty that
> you remember those problems that you struggled with. As a consequence,
> you are likely solving these mini-puzzles even after you've left the
> exam and have moved onto some other activity. It's called rumination.
>
> What I think is most interesting actually, is that we have all become
> accustomed now to the Ravens style. When I see these problems,
> automatically I am checking for addition, subtraction, rotation
> operations. I think that in some way this is a failure, on my part, to
> demonstrate novelty of intellect, to demonstrate the fluidity of my
> intelligence. I have almost tainted any future attempt of measurement,
> because I am so well acquainted now with the style of the exam.
>
> All of this aside: has anyone noticed improvement by way of physical
> exercise? Was it high or low intensity,longor short duration? What
little less cloudy...is this what you mean?
On Jan 4, 6:29 am, ailambris <ailamb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm having trouble seeing that an improvement in score by way of
> retake is any improvement at all. I don't mean to sound caustic, but
> it just doesn't make sense for the simple reason that there is a
> limited amount of time given to complete the test in the first place.
> Now, if you've taken it, it is probably with little difficulty that
> you remember those problems that you struggled with. As a consequence,
> you are likely solving these mini-puzzles even after you've left the
> exam and have moved onto some other activity. It's called rumination.
>
> What I think is most interesting actually, is that we have all become
> accustomed now to the Ravens style. When I see these problems,
> automatically I am checking for addition, subtraction, rotation
> operations. I think that in some way this is a failure, on my part, to
> demonstrate novelty of intellect, to demonstrate the fluidity of my
> intelligence. I have almost tainted any future attempt of measurement,
> because I am so well acquainted now with the style of the exam.
>
> All of this aside: has anyone noticed improvement by way of physical
blacky
May 30, 2018, 10:36:57 PM5/30/18
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
What's most important is if you've noticed an improvement in your ability to solve problems and understand situations that you formally couldn't.
Also what's an example of someone using high intelligence to solve a problem or understand something? It's important to identify this because Iq test are so damn unreliable.
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