Dual N-Back and adult adhd

[mackyn victor]

I'm wondering if any adults with adhd have noticed any benefit from
the dual n-back. In theory, I'm guessing it should definitely be
helpful, but I'd like to hear some anecdotal reports if anyone has
them. I notice an acute effect of increased focus after using the dual-
n-back program but as of yet, I can't say I've noticed any difference
on days that I don't use the program.

Thanks,

M

[Reece]

In my experience with dual and multimodal n-back, the benefits I've
most observed have been increased multitasking ability and increased
concentration in the presence of distractions. For me, the benefits of
n-back training are most apparent on days I don't take my ADHD
medication. I have been training DNB with position-sound and color-
image modes lately. I used QNB for several months in the past, however
I (subjectively) believe DNB is giving me the most benefit.

[iwan tulijef]

In the beginning of my training the effects of DNB were astounding. I
was much faster in understanding written and spoken language. Perhaps
improvements in other categories were found, but these two were the
most noticeable. But after a while I got used to the improvement, the
improvements also got smaller and so I stopped nBack.

Now I stopped taking my ADD meds and developed myself a program with
the use of nBack and nirHeg to get more independent of the meds and to
build up my cognitive abilities. It's very interesting, when I took
the medication I easily got to level 8 and 9 in DNB. But now without
the meds, improvements in the DNB level are much harder and smaller.
I have to restart at level 4.

Now after some time of the training I have a weird impression. More
and more my working memory seems to alter his function to the thing
what is called in computer science a "stack". (ok, not really, but
this is, what came in my mind whe I noticed this effect). When I read
or hear new information, even very simple ones, then that information
gets collected in my working memory. There it waits sometime
unprocessed. Even so long that the glimpse of the question, "what does
that mean", can rise. Its like the meaning of the words are knocking
on the door and have difficulties to enter. But then information after
information gets processed. Its bizarre because I have the impression
it gets collected before it gets processed, and it mostly gets so late
processed when collection is already finished. For me that seems like
the bottle neck is also processing speed?
It reminds me a bit of a post, in which someone wrote something alike
that nBack improved his working memory in a way, that now when he has
lessons, he can't follow the teacher, but he can now collect an
updateable chain of information.
Any suggestions?
iwan

[Michael]

On Brain workshop, maybe you should try making the length of each
trial smaller. Default is 3.00sec, maybe you want it lower so that you
also practice processing information faster. Arithmetic n-back could
also help you, as you have to process simple math problems.

[iwan tulijef]

Yeah, think thats a good idea. Especially as the faster it gets the
less time's available for chunking routines.

[KD Jones]

Just wanted to throw in, maybe to offer some reason to keep trying.

I have ADHD, diagnosed late, supposedly very intelligent but
scattered. Later still I came to have a very strong sense of the
failure of working memory in my processes. Teachers and coworkers
could never figure out how I could be "so smart" and still "not get
this (or that)", which seemed like average stuff to them. Made for a
bit of a freakshow.

I worked LIKE MAD on DNB and reverse digit span (was working on a
combination 2- 4 hours a day with occasional brief lapses) for approx
2 months. (Also neurotherapy stuff, meditation, CES, and TDCS). Fell
away due to massive family/life/work complications. Getting back now.

Did notice increases in ease of verbal processing, reasoning, and
mood. I very seriously believe it was juat the tip of the iceberg
though, and that for a brain like mine wracked with ADHD, longer term
and serious work is necessary to engage a level of plastic response in
the brain that would bring me in range of "normalcy" in line with my
suppoaed intelligence in other areas. I really believe I felt the
front end of it distinctly. The most distinct results were with
reverse digit span, with which I went from struggling at 5 to 9 with
approx 3 of 5 trials (typically, but not worse) fully correct. DNB
continued to be a strain with my highest messy work at 7. But the
slow progress didn't seem to matter - the strain appeared to be the
important factor (as reported by Jeaggi). Mediating the frustration
with percieved "poor performance" was my issue. The view of the
purpose of the struggle really has to change to accomodate what feels
like a "know pain, no gain" aspect of the work.

[Neurohacker]

I'm definitely finding it helpful, even if it's just giving me some
practice at focusing. I think the best way to benefit if you have ADHD
is to just commit to do for twenty or thirty minutes each day, without
taking a break. I also do 20 minutes or so of mindfulness meditation
each day, and do what I can to stay healthy. I'm not about to stop
taking my meds (I'm generally skeptical of anything that advocates
that) but as a complimentary strategy, it's certainly working wonders.

-Matt

[iwan tulijef]

n-Back helped me a lot. Especially in the beginning when I started
with DNB, the effect was astounding. I got much faster in
understanding written and spoken words.In the beginning I think the
function of my working memory was really bad. What then happened is
that I got habituated to the effect and the increases were smaller, so
noticing improvements got more difficult.

Now, I'm doing a self developed program which will help me to stop
taking the ADD meds and building up my cognitive abilities. I do that
with the help of nBack and nirHeg. Its very interesting, when I take
the ADD medicaments I have no problems to get to level 8 or 9 in DNB.
When not taking them I started again at 4. ;-)

But I also have a question to you which rised during my training with
nBack.
More and more I have the impression that the training with nBack
alters my working memory to function like the thing which is called in
computer science " stack ". When I reuptake new informations, even not
very complicated ones, then its like that this information is for some
short time unprocessed in my conscious and gets collected there. Then
after a short time one item after one gets processed. Its a bit
bizarre, because I noticed that after I restarted with nBack and it
seems its similar to the operations you do when training with nBack.
Also I get the impression that I have to train my processing speed.
Any helpful suggestions?

iwan

On 29 Aug., 02:25, Reece <rockyb...@hotmail.com> wrote:

[Mark Williams]

Hmmm, I've never been diagnosed with anything, as my brother was mostly the centre of attention as kids, he has ADD, ODD, Dyslexia and Dyspraxia. And because I seemed to be doing well academically people just kidna left me alone I guess. In retrospect, I should have been taken along and checked out, as my school work fell away sharply at college and I have never really recovered in truth, lapses in memory, concentration abound. I almost certainly have something like ADHD or possibly even Asperger's, who knows, I'm too scared to go get checked out at my age lol (40). 

Anyway, I tried a while back a rigorous course of Dual-n-back, and this website: http://www.cambridgebrainsciences.com (no hidden costs or anything) along with mindfulness meditation.

Certainly I noticed improvements at the various tests but overall in my every day life, it's hard to tell, I still have my bad days, where conversation stalls, where I find myself sweating just at the thought at engaging in something that most people, who are apparently less 'intelligent' than I would consider a doddle. I have definitely noticed a dramatic reduction in brain fog. The difference between me+coffee and me-without is something to behold though. I can waltz into a meeting or interview after a massive coffee and talk like a car salesman with a Phd and then there are times I can barely speak. I seem to have issues following instruction and remembering what people say, especially if if there's something else going on in the background. I'm a mess in truth. 

Just finished reading this fascinating book which I recommend if you haven't already: http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Plastic-Mind-Sharon-Begley/dp/1845296745

And it certainly has inspired me to try once more to wrestle my misfiring brain into submission. 

[Brain Train]

suggest you to visit amenclinics.com... has good info about diagnosis ADD.

also, the book by Dr. Amen is helpful... 'Making a good brain great'. you may get useful suggestion on controlling ADD.. (fish oil, Acetyl L carnitine, good half an hour brisk walk is also suggested by him).

Then, there is a book.. 'Healing 6 types of ADD....' where he covered a lot of case studies. Many people reaslized only after their professional life was over! .. when someone from their next generation was diagnosed with ADD.

The point is that if you suspect ADD, don't ignore it. if you get treated (whether by medicine or just by some health supplements / diet change/ aerobic exercise) you will gain a lot of productivity in day to day life. you will become more organised, will plan better and also execute on your plans better!

people with ADD often have great high level plans (with details missing, with no milestone and timelines) which mostly remain unexecuted or half done! i guess that is enough hint :)

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[Heinstar]

Just because you function better / can't function without coffee doesn't necessary mean that you have ADHD which I used to think. It could be due to other neurotransmitter imbalances that's causing the brain fog. According to my psychologist and psychiatrist, they don't think I have ADHD but I never have enough mental energy, attentiveness without drinking coffee and I find it extremely hard to work at a job or study without first drinking coffee. When I went to the doctor for my cognitive issues, I was told that I was "depressed" and got put onto antidepressants. Lexapro was the first antidepressant I was put onto and it hardly did anything positive to my cognition besides making me not care about anything and further lowering my motivation. But oddly, norepinephrine inhibition from Cymbalta seems to have increased my mental energy, attentiveness and motivation. Although I still need coffee to function even while on Cymbalta, my ability to memorise information, mental energy and attention has noticeably improved ever since I've started taking Cymbalta + drinking coffee every morning.

Since norepinephrine inhibition seems to be working so well, I was considering trying Wellbutrin + SSRIs to get the triple reuptake inhibition effect to maximise the potential benefit from balancing neurotransmitter imbalances. But for now, I'm modulating my dopamine receptor using Mr Happy stack to see if that's sufficient.