(Tri,Quad,Pentuple N-Back Modes) [so-called breadth training]

[A.Four.Sigma]

This thread has been created with the goal of understanding the
effects of Tri, Quad, and Pentuple N-back modes. Please post about
your personal experiences with these modalities. Also post thoughts
about if you have noticed any ways in which the benefits from these
modes differ from others (e.g. dual n-back).

[Arkanj3l]

My understanding is that they stress executive function -- none of
this crap about "breadth". "Breadth" doesn't seem quantifiable, or a
part of any model I know.

I'm correctable, of course.

[A.Four.Sigma]

My personal experience is that yes, executive function has increased
after training these modalities. After experiencing a plateau at N=5
for dual N back, (steadily improving n-level, but not noticing many
substantial cognitive changes) I switched to pentuple n-back.

Subjectively I can say that first, I can remember images more vividly.
That is, colors are more vivid in my memory, and also in dreams. This
is likely do to the color/image component of pentuple/quad/tri
nbacking. I also notice a decrease in the load that learning a new
topic places on my WM. That is, I feel that my WM capacity is
increased such that I can manipulate more data with ease, making
learning mathematics and abstract concepts quite simple. Dual N
backing increased this by a set amount, and then when the results
seemed to plateau, anecdotally I can say that it appears Pentuple/Quad
N back appear to have kickstarted results again.

Also, since beginning N back training in general, I have astronomical
recall, to the point that if I forget something I have read, a formula
for instance, I can visualize the image of it, then re-read it from
memory. Also, if i consciously forget where I placed something,
subconscious streams of the place I last saw it take place. In other
words, I intuitively recall the location of the item I lost with
stunning accuracy, generally with an exact mental photograph of the
item where I left it. Finding the item, I notice that it is situated
exactly as it was in my memory.

Also increased ability to create humor, and express ideas verbally.

On top of this training, I study a musical instrument, play chess for
2 hours per day, exercise 3-5 days per week, take fish oil, flax, and
other brain supplements and study language.

I can surely say that I feel myself getting smarter week by week; it
is a rather surreal experience.

Currently at between P2B and P3B.

[A.Four.Sigma]

[Arkanj3l]

I'm curious if this sort of training aids in not visual memory, but
visualization of new concepts, possibly creative. I've heard that it
doesn't: the fact that your visual memory is so strong might mean that
there's no real "room" for anything else. Perhaps manipulating
creative ideas in your head is a combination of visual and verbal
processes; you reason in verbal which updates visualization.

OK, I'm musing now. Point is, can you *create* better images in your
head or can't you?

I haven't moved on to tri/quad/pent yet, but I am planning to after
I've suitably conquered D6B/D7B, or if that it's impossible without
executive function training (if that's the case, kind of shows how n-
back might be making us better chunkers than anything else.
Subjectively though I believe it's both, but higher levels lead to
more executive function stress).

[polar]

congratulations, seem like you're in the middle of the n-back fun ;) -
enjoy it to the fullest!

[A.Four.Sigma]

I just realized something, that while studying, Ive been chunking
data. By improving my ability to chunk larger strings of information
with nbacking, Ive been able to learn faster, chunking different parts
of mathematical equations molding them together. arkangel, thanks for
sparking this eureka moment.

> > > > modes differ from others (e.g. dual n-back).- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Arkanj3l]

OK, another quick question:

Do gains in Pent n-back translate to working memory/level gains in DNB
for you?

[A.Four.Sigma]

Doing Pentuple N back at lower levels, and going back to dual, I've
noticed that I mainted and maybe slightly improved my accuracy. This
is after not doing dual for a few weeks. This also came after about 4
days of no PNB or any WM training whatever. For the next few days, I
will do PNB maximally, along with some ComVar N, and see if my DNB
level goes to 6 (it is around 5 right now). If it goes to 6, I will be
able to say that PNB and ComVar training, even at lower N (2 and 3)
increased my Nback level. I will be sure to post results.

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[A.Four.Sigma]

one thing we mentioned in another thread is that PNB and QNB prevent
you from using strategy because of the large number of stimuli
presented at the same time. They force an intuitive approach, which I
find to be more or less the case. Inability to effective strategize is
definitely the case with Dual ComVarNB as well.

On Oct 7, 8:47 pm, likeprestige <plastic...@live.com.au> wrote:
> Consider the following when training using the pentuple variant or
> dual-n-back:
>
> "In contrast, n-back performance and matrix reasoning share a great
> deal of common variance; consequently, there was transfer as a result
> of n-back training. We also proposed that it is important that
> participants only minimally learn task-specific strategies in order to
> prevent specific skill acquisition. We think that besides the transfer
> to matrix reasoning, the improvement in the near transfer measure
> provides additional evidence that the participants
> trained on task-underlying processes rather than relying on material-
> specific strategies. Further, we proposed that it is important to
> maximally stress the information processing system by using a very
> complex training paradigm, in our case, a dual variant of the n-back
> task."
>
> I will now be adopting a more intuitive approach as opposed to the
> rigorous rehearsal of stimuli.
>
> "However, the results of both studies indicate that this is not
> necessary in order to get transfer: Study 1 showed that the single n-
> back task is equally related to matrix reasoning, and Study 2 showed
> that single n-back training yields transfer to our Gf tasks as well.
> Thus, using a dual task for training does not seem to be necessary in
> order to obtain transfer to matrix reasoning."
>
> On another note, I think it's appropriate to speculate that had they
> instead used _auditory_ stimuli to act as the single-n-back task as
> opposed to the visuospatial modality, perhaps their findings would
> have reflected a less symmetrical result between the two training-task
> paradigms.
>
> likeprestige
>
> Perhaps you could reflect the same form of training when playing
> pentuple, A.Four.Sigma

[A.Four.Sigma]

After some training on these non DNB modes, I went back to DNB and did
not have significant gains. However, I can say that it is MUCH easier
because my brain has adapted to dealing with much more simultaneous
stimuli ( I recently took to trying QComV3B). Executive functionality
has definitely been altered as a result of these strenuous modes. Even
though DNB performance did not significantly improve, I also have to
spend time getting re-accustomed to it since I have not done it for
some time. After adapting to it again, it's possible that the plateau
at D5B could be shattered.

Despite the lack of improvement at DNB, I definitely noticed overall
improvement in cognitive function in general, whereas with DNB, such
improvement was becoming stale and/or difficult to notice after
continued training.

On Oct 7, 7:14 am, Arkanj3l <kenneth.bruskiew...@gmail.com> wrote:

[milestones]

I think it's true what you say about dual n back improvement becoming
unproductive at a certain point. I'm grateful for the gains I seemed
to have received from training dual n back. I used to be extremely
forgetful with remembering where I put things and now it's very easy
to retrace steps and recall where I placed xyz item. As far as IQ
tests go, I did see a gain on a well designed (untimed) culture fair
test of about 1 standard deviation after training one DNB on and off
for close 2 years. (Other tests with lower ceilings, however, showed
no or marginal gains).

So I am convinced N back helps with some aspects of working memory as
well as being able to aggrandize analytical focus (aka fluid
intelligence) as one moves up to about DNB 5 or so. After that,
"transfer gains" seem to attenuate more and more the higher N one
goes. Moving my average from 6 to 8 back over 19 session seemed to
bring me far less real life effects than moving my N average from 3 to
5 (where I felt the most transfer).

I've now switched to playing pent back almost exclusively to see what
the effects might be. I'm at P2B and usually land between 45-70% and
so sometimes fall to P1B but can usually get back to P2B after 1 or
two tries. This leads me to believe that I have at least mastered
where the keys on the keyboard are and that my problem is about
information processing (which is the good, productive problem to
have). My guess is that unlike DNB at the higher N levels, any
strategies I develop for PNB to raise N level will likely be a
transferrable honing of information processing skills b/c strategies
have to be speedily retained and implemented amid a sea of new
stimuli.

One potential shortcut that I have not tried yet is to shift
particular attention to some stimuli and less attention to others, but
I seem do this anyway without trying to -- usually I get more correct
on location, say, than shape. For instance, a run just now at P2B at
63% seems pretty representative of how I score: A: 6-0 F:3-2 J:2-5 L:
4-3 ;: 4-1 (though L and ;: rarely follow any pattern from trial to
trial). To apply this strategy might improve percentages to some
extent, but it would be counterproductive in the end. I think it's
good to just try to recall as much as possible as it comes at you and
switch from attending all the different stimuli without emphasizing
one over the other. Even though there seems to be some unconscious
bias as to what stimuli gets recalled, over time that bias probably
diminishes as the mind gets used to it all...I'm finding this to be
the case even after training PNB a short while, where at first my mind
was completely overwhelmed and rejected certain stimuli altogether --
usually one of the auditories and one of the visuals. Now at least, I
can "hang on" (to varying degrees) to them all.

Interesting to see what the specific transfer gains will feel like by
training P2B when I move up to P3B...I suspect though this "when" may
take quite a bit of time -- hopefully it will take place before age
related cognitive decline sets the boulder rolling against my
efforts ;-)

[A.Four.Sigma]

Even though there seems to be some unconscious

bias as to what stimuli gets recalled,...I'm finding this to be

the case even after training PNB a short while, where at first my
mind
was completely overwhelmed and rejected certain stimuli altogether"

:D a true gem. Glad to see someone else noticing a plateau in
perceived benefits. I am also sure that this plateau will be broken
with PNB and similar modes. Currently I'm training on Quad Combination
Variable3Back. I also play some PVarNback. Very tough modes and I can
feel the brain stretching.

[Arkanj3l]

Wow, today's the first time I managed to hit and keep a decent (but
low) D5B level without manual mode. This is after around an hour and a
half total of QNB.

[Arkanj3l]

Admittedly, though, I've begun to train with 2 second trials instead
of the default 3. That might have had more of an effect.

[Dzialo, Chris]

I personally find 2 second trails easier then the default 3 seconds. I score higher higher when on 2 seconds or lower compared to 3 + seconds trials.

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