can N-Back training improve fluid intelligence?

[Min Mae]

Previously I had a RAPM IQ test result was 112 by certified
psychologist .In

2009 August I practiced DNB 2.5 hours a day for 20 days with time off
two

days, Saturday and Sunday.
After 20 days I took RAPM test in my university by certified
psychologist.
I got IQ gain was 12.1 points. In the test i was only able to answer
more

questions that related to changes in position of objects in the
test(RAPM).

At 2010/04/12 I started SNB(single N-Back, visual modality) with
training time

was same as on DNB training time for 20 days. IQ gain by RAPM test was
no

change.That time i also was able to answer more questions that
related to

changes in position of objects in the RAPM test.

I also did not forget to give nutritions for my brain and my body when
DNB and

SNB training.

So i conclude N- back trainings(DNB n SNB) only improve visual
spatial

perception and they can not improve abstract reasoning/
Gf(indispensable in

mathematics and management).

so my question is :
can N-Back training improve fluid intelligence?

thx

[Działo, Christopher]

Why do you recommend QNB?

On Sun, Jan 16, 2011 at 2:07 AM, αrgvmziΩ σV <argu...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thank you for sharing this, Min Mae. (Very nice name, if I may say
so!)

The shortest answer to your question is that we need _a lot_ more
evidence to determine if fluid intelligence is really being improved
by the practice of this tool. In any event, you made some pretty good
gains (and you reflect some of the results in the literature when you
mention that you were only able to answer _more_ questions, not
necessarily figure the harder ones out), so it isn't a bad idea to
continue training.

I recommend QNB, in particular.

argumzio

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[Działo, Christopher]

Naturally.

Do you perform daily training on QNB solely? Why do you choose QNB when you could play more advanced n-back modalities such as PCSNB (position, color, sound) at n=3+

On Sun, Jan 16, 2011 at 2:12 AM, αrgvmziΩ σV <argu...@gmail.com> wrote:

It's harder. And it feels more refreshing than DNB. I could perceive
benefits more saliently with QNB than I did DNB. This is my honest
appraisal.

argumzio

> > brain-trainin...@googlegroups.com<brain-training%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>

[Arkanj3l]

Just curious Argumzio, do you still use brainwave manipulation of any
kind? Neurofeedback, for example, or binaural beats? You wrote up a
pretty good treatise on here a while ago, and it got me interested.

On Jan 16, 3:24 pm, αrgvmziΩ σV <argum...@gmail.com> wrote:
> That was a while ago. I've taken a long break from training to see how
> my own WM functioning deteriorates with time. (An experiment few have
> done on themselves here.) Over all, my WM functioning still remains
> well above average, but it is not unparalleled like cev's, for
> example. However, despite the small decline, I've noticed that I am
> able to think of original solutions to various problems, and that my
> WM functioning is hardly ever a real barrier; it would appear that my
> mind exercises it quite well, so the deterioration seems to have
> reached a levelling point.
>
> In any case, once I get the hankering for it, I will begin training
> afresh with a well-defined regimen on a more difficult mode.
>
> Others here are currently working with more difficult modes than QNB,
> and say there are good benefits from them as well. It is simply that
> from my experience, you can really _feel_ the need to focus on QNB
> than DNB. YMMV.
>
> argumzio

>
> On Jan 16, 1:17 am, Działo, Christopher <chrisdzi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Naturally.
>
> > Do you perform daily training on QNB solely? Why do you choose QNB when you
> > could play more advanced n-back modalities such as PCSNB (position, color,
> > sound) at n=3+
>

> > > > > brain-trainin...@googlegroups.com<brain-training%2Bunsubscribe@go oglegroups.com>
> > > <brain-training%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com<brain-training%252Bunsubscri b...@googlegroups.com>

>
> > > > > .
> > > > > For more options, visit this group at
> > > > >http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training?hl=en.
>
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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> > > To post to this group, send email to brain-t...@googlegroups.com.
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> > > brain-trainin...@googlegroups.com<brain-training%2Bunsubscribe@go oglegroups.com>

[Pontus Granström]

Well it seems that you increased your score (around 1 sd as expected) on a test claimed to measure your ability to reason, but doubt that the increase in score actually was due to an increased ability? A paradox or perhaps not.

* RAPM is perhaps not the god of reasoning, it might be flawed, n-back might reveal this flaw. What Raven thought was reasoning was nothing else than moving around visual information in certain patterns (things going in circles etc).

* That you actually improved your reasoning, if you define your reasoning ability as proportional to the number of correct answers on the test.

* That you increased your accuracy, RAPM empirically consists of 4-5 difficulties, getting a higher score on n-back is also associated with a higher accuracy in "WM operations".

* That test taking involves a lot of other factors that n-back enhances, wouldn't be that strange.

* Combinations or something else.

It seems though, that almost everyone that do n-backing seem to improve their score, which at least to me makes it more plausible that it's core "neurobiological functions" that underlies the performance on RAPM (without caring about
what it actually measures) is what's being improved.

On Sun, Jan 16, 2011 at 8:39 AM, αrgvmziΩ σV <argu...@gmail.com> wrote:

Nope. I've completely abandoned brain-wave manipulation software that
I had been using, e.g., Gnaural and NeuroProgrammer. After using them
for several years, I figured it was time to see what my brain would do
on its own. It would appear that they have positively modulated my
baseline activity, overall.

Here's what I do now: exercise (mostly strength train); take vitamins;
take nootropics, like piracetam, Alpha-GPC, etc. That's it.

argumzio

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to brain-trainin...@googlegroups.com.

[Gwern Branwen]

On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 11:13 PM, Min Mae <re5...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Previously I had a RAPM  IQ test result was 112 by certified
> psychologist .In

Added to the FAQ, thanks. (Would've been easier if your email hadn't
been so mangled I had to reformat my snippet.)

And as ever, I remind everyone that IQ before-after reports are
valuable, and null-results are even more valuable than a simple
increase.

--
gwern
http://www.gwern.net

[Pontus Granström]

Did you get any rawscore? It would be interesting to know how many more questions you completed.

[ailambris]

I have to agree with some of the earlier comments. It does seem that
(some) implementations of the Ravens examination are flawed. What I
think is more telling, though, is that the BrainWorkshop layout is in
fact a matrix, basically simulates the arrangement of matrix items, so
that I really begin to wonder: had the arrangement been in any other
way, say, one-dimensional streaming dots, would there still be
improvement in processing speed? It is just that Ravens purports to
measure G, our training improves speed on Ravens, and we have
artificially increased our "IQ".

> > brain-trainin...@googlegroups.com<brain-training%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> > .

[Działo, Christopher]

I currently play on 2x-PIA1B, and I really like the image feature. I honestly feel I am getting a work out, and my score is slowly raising -- considering I have been at this mode for 2 days now. I average 65%, but I know my score is higher; I know the correct matches but I get 'trigger happy' with the 5-keys and press the wrong ones. If I allow myself to think about what keys to press, my error go done drastically -- but I run out of time and the next trial comes, and as I was thinking about what match/keys to press, I don't have complete concentration and focus on the next trial.

On Sun, Jan 16, 2011 at 2:12 AM, αrgvmziΩ σV <argu...@gmail.com> wrote:

It's harder. And it feels more refreshing than DNB. I could perceive
benefits more saliently with QNB than I did DNB. This is my honest
appraisal.

argumzio

On Jan 16, 1:09 am, Działo, Christopher <chrisdzi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > brain-trainin...@googlegroups.com<brain-training%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>

[milestones]

On Jan 17, 5:07 am, Działo, Christopher <chrisdzi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I currently play on 2x-PIA1B, and I really like the image feature. I
> honestly feel I am getting a work out, and my score is slowly raising --
> considering I have been at this mode for 2 days now. I average 65%, but I
> know my score is higher; I know the correct matches but I get 'trigger
> happy' with the 5-keys and press the wrong ones. If I allow myself to think
> about what keys to press, my error go done drastically -- but I run out of
> time and the next trial comes, and as I was thinking about what match/keys
> to press, I don't have complete concentration and focus on the next trial.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 16, 2011 at 2:12 AM, αrgvmziΩ σV <argum...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > It's harder. And it feels more refreshing than DNB. I could perceive
> > benefits more saliently with QNB than I did DNB. This is my honest
> > appraisal.
> > > argumzio

I am doing QNB exclusively these days. I don't plan on moving on to
more difficult modes for a while -- eventually, though, I will. QNB
provides a reasonable level of N (for me, right now, 4 back) as well
as enough things to pay attention to at one time. It's enough to take
me to take the next level of focus and attention and it seems to be
doing its job -- taking me further past the point where DNB left off.
That I probably won't progress too much past QNB 4 is pretty clear (I
do want to hit 5 back) but still giving me the workout I need. I
recommend it for anyone who has plateau'd out with DNB but not for
those still working to hit DNB = 3 or 4. (I am now doing QNB about
30-50 sessions a day, 5 days a week). The payoff beyond DNB has been
even more WM and attention control + rapid assimilation of new data/
ideas. The latter is something DNB only moderately helped with,
whereas QNB seems to have taken this to another level. I'm also
learning Chinese and so the emphasis on encoding visual and aural
information is being worked out by that activity -- though QNB is
likely a artificial mechanism augmenting the ability to encode, store,
retrieve, stick in long term memory, etc.

[ailambris]

I thought it has been said before that DNB is not a WM trainer?

> retrieve, stick in long term memory, etc.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Pontus Granström]

If you got any source on that feel free to post it.

On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 8:16 PM, αrgvmziΩ σV <argu...@gmail.com> wrote:

It trains WM but is not a measure of WM capacity (C).

argumzio

[Oinchack'Olp]

> It trains WM but is not a measure of WM capacity (C).

There is a test of WMC made by Dr. Lehrl and his peers at
http://www.mental-aktiv.de/mental-aktiv/Mentaltraining/Tests/flash_1.html

Although german language, it is almost self explaining. Notice that if
you remember false and so make an error in an exercise, you get 1
second try. Note also that when "*" characters (wildcard characters)
appear in that test, you are supposed to ignore them!

My personal result today was:
"Vielen Dank für Ihr Mitmachen! Ihre Arbeitsspeicherkapazität
beträgt aktuell 120.0 bit"
= "Thank you for your participation! Your WMC currently is 120.0 bit"

This was the second time (in all my life) I made that test. My first
time was 4 months ago and the result then was 92,5 or 93,5 bit, don't
know exactly anymore. It is also late at the evening in germany ( 10
pm ), so it might be that at the morning I would get a better result.
I am relatively awaken, though, and not really weary.

Merkspanne (~"length of memory") and Verarbeitungsgeschwindigkeit
(=information processing speed) can be tested also separately, see:
http://www.mental-aktiv.de/mental-aktiv/Mentaltraining/Test_Gehirnleistung.php

Remember, ignore the "*" characters in those tests!

[Joe G]

Ooooh, fun test. On my first attempt I scored 276.9 bits. Rather happy
with that.

On a note more salient to this discussion, I took the WAIS-IV
yesterday and will be receiving my scores soon, I took the WAIS-III
roughly 2.5 years ago - though I was only 14 then, and just 16 now, so
I am not sure of the usefulness of comparing my scores. I will report
back any gains/changes. As mentioned in another thread, the score will
have contain data on many aspects of intelligence, so that will be
useful for comparing the various factors.

On Jan 18, 9:31 pm, "Oinchack'Olp" <motsog...@yahoo.de> wrote:
> > It trains WM but is not a measure of WM capacity (C).
>

> There is a test of WMC made by Dr. Lehrl and his peers athttp://www.mental-aktiv.de/mental-aktiv/Mentaltraining/Tests/flash_1....

>
> Although german language, it is almost self explaining. Notice that if
> you remember false and so make an error in an exercise, you get 1
> second try. Note also that when "*" characters (wildcard characters)
> appear in that test, you are supposed to ignore them!
>
> My personal result today was:
>    "Vielen Dank für Ihr Mitmachen! Ihre Arbeitsspeicherkapazität
> beträgt aktuell 120.0 bit"
> = "Thank you for your participation! Your WMC currently is 120.0 bit"
>
> This was the second time (in all my life) I made that test. My first
> time was 4 months ago and the result then was 92,5 or 93,5 bit, don't
> know exactly anymore. It is also late at the evening in germany ( 10
> pm ), so it might be that at the morning I would get a better result.
> I am relatively awaken, though, and not really weary.
>
> Merkspanne (~"length of memory") and Verarbeitungsgeschwindigkeit

> (=information processing speed) can be tested also separately, see:http://www.mental-aktiv.de/mental-aktiv/Mentaltraining/Test_Gehirnlei...

[Działo, Christopher]

I'm worried with my processing bit score. I have taken it two times and scored 11.4bits/sec. This is within the lowest bracket.

[milestones]

On Jan 19, 7:00 am, Joe G <thought.2...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Ooooh, fun test. On my first attempt I scored 276.9 bits. Rather happy
> with that.

Joe G, 276.9 is a truly awesome score. I got 200.2 bits -- happy
mostly to see that quad back is doing its job wrt to WM training.

[Pontus Granström]

Here's a table on the correlation between IQ and bit capacity

http://www.v-weiss.de/lehrl.html

Seems like bit capacity above 140 corresponds with a 124 IQ.

[likeprestige]

I don't know what it's worth but I took an IQ test (very similar to
Raven's) supplied by the site listed below and obtained a score of
135. However, I'm thinking of getting my self properly tested within a
couple of months just for validation; WAIS would be ideal I think.

http://iqtest-australia.com/

likeprestige

On Jan 19, 10:41 pm, Pontus Granström <lepon...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Here's a table on the correlation between IQ and bit capacity
>
> http://www.v-weiss.de/lehrl.html
>
> Seems like bit capacity above 140 corresponds with a 124 IQ.
>

> On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 7:34 AM, milestones <wgweathe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Jan 19, 7:00 am, Joe G <thought.2...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > > Ooooh, fun test. On my first attempt I scored 276.9 bits. Rather happy
> > > with that.
>
> > Joe G, 276.9 is a truly awesome score. I got 200.2 bits -- happy
> > mostly to see that quad back is doing its job wrt to WM training.
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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> > To post to this group, send email to brain-t...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> > brain-trainin...@googlegroups.com<brain-training%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> > .

[likeprestige]

Wow Joe G, tremendous score.

I obtained 200.00 bits exactly, lol.

likeprestige

[Pontus Granström]

A 135 IQ matches exactly with 200.00 bits according to the graph at the homepage.

[likeprestige]

Pontus,

Thanks for that, what was your score by the way?

likeprestige

P.S - Sorry for all posts guys, could have condensed.

On Jan 19, 10:41 pm, Pontus Granström <lepon...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Here's a table on the correlation between IQ and bit capacity
>
> http://www.v-weiss.de/lehrl.html
>
> Seems like bit capacity above 140 corresponds with a 124 IQ.
>

> On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 7:34 AM, milestones <wgweathe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Jan 19, 7:00 am, Joe G <thought.2...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > > Ooooh, fun test. On my first attempt I scored 276.9 bits. Rather happy
> > > with that.
>
> > Joe G, 276.9 is a truly awesome score. I got 200.2 bits -- happy
> > mostly to see that quad back is doing its job wrt to WM training.
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to brain-t...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> > brain-trainin...@googlegroups.com<brain-training%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> > .

[Pontus Granström]

I will do it more seriously but I got a 190 so far, I will give it a better shot without music in my ears.

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to brain-trainin...@googlegroups.com.

[Pontus Granström]

Gave it go again got 223.5 bit but there's more to gain.

[Shamanu999]

Imho this test isn't very usefull.
Forcing my self to use no strategy or repetition vs using simple repetition without any specific strategy created for me already more then 50% difference in the final scores...

[milestones]

On Jan 19, 8:49 pm, likeprestige <plastic...@live.com.au> wrote:
> I don't know what it's worth but I took an IQ test (very similar to
> Raven's) supplied by the site listed below and obtained a score of
> 135. However, I'm thinking of getting my self properly tested within a
> couple of months just for validation; WAIS would be ideal I think.

likeprestige, given your apparent well rounded profile, I'd bet your
WAIS IQ will come out even higher than 135, likely 140+ as long as you
don't struggle too much with the the lowly PSI tasks. However, to be
honest, there's not a real difference between scoring anywhere in the
99%ile on the WAIS. Braniacs on the net obsess over it, but the WAIS
is a mid-range test, trying to differentiate between those in 5th, the
25th, the 50th, the 75th, and the 95th%ile. It's not a test to
differentiate the gfited -- it doesn't discriminate well at the
extremes. And the top 1%ile qualifies as extreme (as is the bottom 1%,
which has nobody on the net obsessing over exactly where they place
down there). Imo, you're better off taking both an untimed Ravens and
the Terman Concept Mastery test. Generally these are tests given to
heavy hitters and do a good job discriminating in the gifted range
(according to many psychologists). Still though, it may be good to
take the WAIS as a baseline assessment if you want to.

[milestones]

267.7 on a retry. This time kicked ass on the third exercise --
defintely due to practice effect.

[Joe G]

Upon retaking the test I scored only 240.3. Am I correct in assuming
that the score is calculated like this: ((Number Span + Letter Span)/
2)*(Bits/S)? If so, my downfall is span rather than speed. I can
consistently hold 7 numbers and 8 letters, but often am able to hold
up to 9 numbers and 10 letters. This is comparatively less impressive
than a bit rate of >27, yes?

On Jan 19, 2:19 pm, αrgvmziΩ σV <argum...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The good thing about tests like CMT, as opposed to "culture free/fair"
> tests (which tend to be boring 2D matrices), is that they are either
> static in difficulty or become even more difficult with time. Overall,
> it is true that the WAIS is designed to discriminate around +/-2 sigma
> around the norm. However, I have yet to read the research on the new
> WAIS-IV (2008), which may not deviate too strongly from previous
> incarnations... (while the Stanford-Binet Intelligence Scales (2003)
> is supposed to be able to extrapolate well above 5 sigma).
>
> argumzio

[cev]

My first attempts at the three tests: Merkspanne - 13.3,
Verarbeitungsgeschwindigkeit 26, Arbeitsspeicherkapazität 285 (what
would that be IQwise?).

Using my scores on the individual tests and Joe's formula (which seems
logical), the latter mark would come out 346 - hah!

Had c.5 more attempts at the perceptual speed test and registered max
of 33, min 25, mode 26. Played yesterday after a
frenetic speeded mental arithmetic session and got 28 (which activity
also appeared to turbo-charge my anagramming skills). Brother, who is
c.IQ 150 posted a 28 first go and then left to do something more
productive with his enormous brain.

Provided that well-practised mnemonic strategies aren't used for the
storage task (I presume that the testees are expected to use simple
repetition), I would guess that both tests would be reasonably
resistant to practice.

Will try them out with students and attempt to get an idea of the
strength of their relation to their performance compared to the
standard reasoning tests. How best might I do this, statisticians?

On Jan 19, 3:09 pm, Joe G <thought.2...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Upon retaking the test I scored only 240.3. Am I correct in assuming
> that the score is calculated like this: ((Number Span + Letter Span)/
> 2)*(Bits/S)? If so, my downfall is span rather than speed. I can
> consistently hold 7 numbers and 8 letters, but often am able to hold
> up to 9 numbers and 10 letters. This is comparatively less impressive
> than a bit rate of >27, yes?
>

> > > take the WAIS as a baseline assessment if you want to.- Hide quoted text -

[Pontus Granström]

Have you looked on the webpage I posted? You got a nice graph there and some easy calculations would tell you what "G" a 285 score, my guess is around 155.

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[Joe G]

So, if we accept that DNB and its derivatives do effectively train and
improve one's WMC, which factor is it primarily affecting? I have been
off training for a while (I wish I had kept it up more diligently in
the weeks leading up to my retaking the WAIS). I am going to get back
into DNBing frequently and compare my score on that site now and
retest every couple of weeks on DNB to see what changes more. Does
anyone else want to partake in this quasi-study, that we may generate
more accurate data?

> > brain-trainin...@googlegroups.com<brain-training%2Bunsubscribe@go oglegroups.com>
> > .

[milestones]

On Jan 19, 11:19 pm, αrgvmziΩ σV <argum...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The good thing about tests like CMT, as opposed to "culture free/fair"
> tests (which tend to be boring 2D matrices), is that they are either
> static in difficulty or become even more difficult with time. Overall,
> it is true that the WAIS is designed to discriminate around +/-2 sigma
> around the norm. However, I have yet to read the research on the new
> WAIS-IV (2008), which may not deviate too strongly from previous
> incarnations... (while the Stanford-Binet Intelligence Scales (2003)
> is supposed to be able to extrapolate well above 5 sigma).
>

The ceiling of the WAIS 4 is 160 up from 155 from the last edition so
not much difference. Yeah, the Terman tests are super-crystallized. I
did see some sample items once and there's some very obscure stuff on
there. However, as I recall from the "Genetic Studies of Genius," the
Terman gifted group (of varied educational levels) did, on average,
far out-perform various learned groups (Phd's, etc) from various
universities and professions. I wonder if that would hold true today
-- I imagine it would. That said, the test is a dinosaur...almost like
a proto super-SAT verbal section that never came to fruition.

(Cev): "Provided that well-practised mnemonic strategies aren't used

for the
storage task (I presume that the testees are expected to use simple
repetition), I would guess that both tests would be reasonably
resistant to practice"

Okay, then, I'll cherry-pick my 267.7 bit score as representative of
the real me and not that 200.2 imposter. However, I'm loath to make
any WM<-->IQ conversions for myself. WM is WM; IQ is IQ, despite what
the WM Taliban has to say ;-)

[Pontus Granström]

Kind of small-minded remark, perhaps not so unsurprising.  

On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 7:56 PM, αrgvmziΩ σV <argu...@gmail.com> wrote:

Well, that's the I.Q. index. The FSIQ index, as it does on WAIS-III,
goes far beyond an I.Q. of 160. Otherwise, how could 5 sigma societies
accept it as an admission standard? I'm sure you're aware of
those... ;)

Nice play with "WM Taliban". Cooijmans said "IQ Taliban" was nice but
the perp failed to include periods in "IQ" as is explained here:
http://www.paulcooijmans.com/intelligence/iq_is_spelt_with_periods.html

:)

argumzio

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[likeprestige]

Thanks for the resources milestones!

Do you see the "kindness" guys?

Let's reduce the soap opera discussions please, the end game is as
hard to figure out as the destination of a man who's just been shot in
the heart (leaves a trail) with a sniper rifle, no further away from
where the 'Taliban' took him out.

likeprestige

[whoisbambam]

Some of you guys are soooo confusing.

So........

Are there ways to improve intelligence/aptitude, or not? And what
might they be?

In other words, let us say we want to acquire new information, like if
we want to go to college.........

Or if we were working with a surgeon who used 30 different instruments
for 10 different kinds of surgeries...........

Are there things we can do to help us in these kinds of real-world
situatons?

I was thinking it would be something like:
nback training
modafinil
Magnesium L treonate (mgT)
cardiovascular exercise (25minutes a day on a treadmill, 5days a week,
70% maximal heart rate)

possibly lumosity and posit science, possibly rise of nations






On Jan 19, 6:48 pm, αrgvmziΩ σV <argum...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Oh, so now you're the authority on fora dynamics? That is doubly
> intriguing considering... ;)
>
> Not that I'm nominating myself for the job, of course.
>
> argumzio
>
> P.S. I've done my homework, so I can't give thanks for that which I'm
> not thankful. It's a solitary state of affairs.

[Pontus Granström]

Psycho metrics is a good thing but doesn't explain cognition, when psycho metrics becomes a religion that denies the study of cognition it becomes dangerous and halts the progress. G whether you like it or not is in terms of
scientific clearness is quite fuzzy. The study of mental speed and working memory as a underlying construct for thinking is on quite solid ground. I suggest everyone to read a  little about the BIP theory. It would even gives ways
to express brainpower in terms of "quantitative units" even on a absolute scale. A person with a 140 IQ has four times the brain power than one with 75 for example. Highly recommended .

General cognitive ability, underlying IQ, is limited by the channel capacity of short-term memory. Mental power, that means the capacity C of short-term memory (measured in bits of information) is the product of the individual mental speed Ck of information processing (in bit/s), see the following paper by Lehrl and Fischer (1990), and the duration time D (in s) of information in short term working memory, see “Memory Span as the Quantum of Action of Thought”

http://www.v-weiss.de/publ9-e.html

Anyone who studies these pages (and some of the links) will be given quite a clear understanding about intelligence in terms of cognition, why n-backing might be a very good candidate for IQ improvements, and why speed RAPM
correlates so highly will full scale IQ (it taps the underlying biology of G rather than an isolated constant).



2011/1/20 whoisbambam <smat...@gmail.com>:

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[moe]

Umm, 140bits/s on the 1st attempt and 280 bits/s second attempt. I
guess the first attempt could be attributed to not fully understanding
the exercise.

On Jan 20, 3:20 am, Pontus Granström <lepon...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Psycho metrics is a good thing but doesn't explain cognition, when psycho
> metrics becomes a religion that denies the study of cognition it becomes
> dangerous and halts the progress. G whether you like it or not is in terms
> of
> scientific clearness is quite fuzzy. The study of mental speed and working
> memory as a underlying construct for thinking is on quite solid ground. I
> suggest everyone to read a  little about the BIP theory. It would even gives
> ways
> to express brainpower in terms of "quantitative units" even on a absolute
> scale. A person with a 140 IQ has four times the brain power than one with
> 75 for example. Highly recommended .
>

> *General cognitive ability, underlying IQ, is limited by the channel

> capacity of short-term memory. Mental power, that means the capacity C of
> short-term memory (measured in bits of information) is the product of the
> individual mental speed Ck of information processing (in bit/s), see the
> following paper by Lehrl and Fischer (1990), and the duration time D (in s)
> of information in short term working memory, see "Memory Span as the Quantum
> of Action of Thought"
>

> http://www.v-weiss.de/publ9-e.html*

>
> Anyone who studies these pages (and some of the links) will be given quite a
> clear understanding about intelligence in terms of cognition, why n-backing
> might be a very good candidate for IQ improvements, and why speed RAPM
> correlates so highly will full scale IQ (it taps the underlying biology of G
> rather than an isolated constant).
>

> 2011/1/20 whoisbambam <smath...@gmail.com>:

> brain-trainin...@googlegroups.com<brain-training%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> .> For more options, visit this group at
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training?hl=en.
>
>
>
>

[Aman Idle]

Um sorry what excersice r u reffering to?

>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send> brain-trainin...@googlegroups.com<brain-training%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>

>> .> For more options, visit this group at
>>
>> http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training?hl=en.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
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[freekyguy007]

my scores

FIRST TEST-- http://www.mental-aktiv.de/mental-aktiv/Mentaltraining/Tests/flash_2.html
MY SCoRE- 10 -- its above 6.6 so its in the top high..yay !!

SECOND TEST-- http://www.mental-aktiv.de/mental-aktiv/Mentaltraining/Tests/flash_4.html
MY SCoRE- 25.0 bits/s-- its over 21 bits/s in the chart so its
high..yay again(lolz)!!

THIRD TEST-- http://www.mental-aktiv.de/mental-aktiv/Mentaltraining/Tests/flash_1.html
MY SCoRE- 257 -- is it gud enough..? hehe.(no yay here:->)
god bless all

*PEACE*

[moe]

The German exercise that measures number span, letter span, and the
speed measure.

On Jan 22, 10:35 pm, Aman Idle <aman.i...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Um sorry what excersice r u reffering to?
>

[moe]

Ok, took the test one more time to confirm my second attempt and
scored 305.9 bits.

My mental speed isn't all that great though (good but not great).
Took the speed portion a few times and got 23.5 bits/s two out of 3
attempts.

My speed is somewhat disheartening and is making me question whether
or not I truly have a 140+ iq brain (looking at the chart 23.5 bits/s
is about iq 130-135) despite my gf scores. Well I guess I shouldn't
be too hard on my self due to the fact that the WMC/bits score
correlates more highly with g than the speed/bits/s score alone. And
thinking about it it's just another game :)

[Pontus Granström]

Well you have to remember the proposed allele frequency for "brain speed" is only two, given that, a score above 21.5 would most certainly be indicative of good genetics. In reality just as Plomin points out, IQ scores will never
be cleansed from other factors (personality etc etc) hence we will see some other variation as well. 

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[moe]

Okay I gotcha, Thanks. I guess I'll go ahead and read the literature
on the subject.

On Jan 23, 3:06 pm, Pontus Granström <lepon...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well you have to remember the proposed allele frequency for "brain speed" is
> only two, given that, a score above 21.5 would most certainly be indicative
> of good genetics. In reality just as Plomin points out, IQ scores will never
> be cleansed from other factors (personality etc etc) hence we will see some
> other variation as well.
>

> > <brain-training%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com<brain-training%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>

[Felipe Beijamini]

Ok, has anyone here heard about the magic number 7?

It´s something about our hability to remember a maximum around 7 number or 7 digits.

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to brain-trainin...@googlegroups.com.

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--
Felipe Beijamini

Laboratório de Cronobiologia Humana
Departamento de Fisiologia
Setor de Ciências Biológicas
Universidade Federal do Paraná - UFPR
Curitiba - PR - Brasil

[jttoto]

Strange, despite all my Dnb training, my speed is high (25 bits/s
first attempt, higher the 2nd time) (most likely not due to Dnb), yet
my digit span is not so remarkable. Perhaps explains why prior to Dnb
I would do well on certain Gf tests despite having a rather mediocre
memory.

[Windt]

So, I am confused. Did Min Mae increase his IQ the second time
training with n-back. The first round he gained 12 iq points however
it is somewhat unclear if he increased his score with using single n
back. Did Min Mae experience a second IQ increase in intelligence?

> > > > brain-trainin...@googlegroups.com<brain-training%2Bunsubscribe@go­oglegroups.com>

> > > > .> For more options, visit this group at
>

> > > >http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training?hl=en.- Hide quoted text -

[freekyguy007]

i think dual n back combined with placebo helps..lolzz
XD

PS: try a dual back session after a session if i-doser..maybe it will
help..

*PEACE*

[Pontus Granström]

This article is very interesting http://www.v-weiss.de/majgenes-full.html Anyone with a digit span score at or above 8 is very likely to have the right genetics, the rest is just environmental factors hence trainable to some degree, just as
the 100-m dash is trainable. An increase around 1SD is very consistent with the genetical limits. It would even be a bit larger for people with "low IQ". It's not very likely that differences of a couple of points are due to genetics for example,
raw scores are not normally distributed (it's a myth of psychology). If this is true it's very consistent with the idea of RAPM having 4 difficulties one for each interval between the genotypes.

Remember, if you do not train the 100-m dash you will not reach your full potential,same goes with IQ. There's room to swing at the tests, even if the genetics only suggest three scores.

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[Pontus Granström]

Forgot, if the underlying factor to IQ is brain power (bit/s), creatine that improves energy would also improve IQ-scores as observed. I scored 26.7 bit/s just a couple of minutes ago, but I doubt that my genes have changed much.

[milestones]

> My mental speed isn't all that great though (good but not great).
> Took the speed portion a few times and got 23.5 bits/s two out of 3
> attempts.

> My speed is somewhat disheartening and is making me question whether
> or not I truly have a 140+ iq brain (looking at the chart 23.5 bits/s
> is about iq 130-135) despite my gf scores.  Well I guess I shouldn't
> be too hard on my self due to the fact that the WMC/bits score
> correlates more highly with g than the speed/bits/s score alone.  And
> thinking about it it's just another game :)

Speed segment is my strength. I just took it on its own and got IVG :
33.3 bit/s then 10 on the letter span. For the speed portion to have a
high enough G loading, it would need to be in a battery with other
related tasks. On its own, it's more like visual acumen/perceptual
speed task and I imagine that the relationship to Gf would not be that
strong. Whatever the case, I would not question your Gf scores based
on MS or span tasks (or any other tasks or tests for that
matter).

[milestones]

> Forgot, if the underlying factor to IQ is brain power (bit/s), creatine that
> improves energy would also improve IQ-scores as observed. I scored 26.7
> bit/s just a couple of minutes ago, but I doubt that my genes have changed
> much.

Yeah, I've been on creatine for several weeks now and that probably
helped me with performance on these tasks, especially as I'm not as
young as most of you.

[Pontus Granström]

Freekyguy, what's your favourite I-dose?

On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 5:27 AM, freekyguy007 <freeky...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Aman Idle]

What are you meant to do on this one? http://www.mental-aktiv.de/mental-aktiv/Mentaltraining/Tests/flash_4.html

[Aman Idle]

first and second test are the same right?

On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 11:26 AM, freekyguy007 <freeky...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Aman Idle]

hm on speed i got 20 bits/sec, after that it gets impossible lol.

[Pontus Granström]

One is span test, the second one is bit/s test, the third test combines the two and multiplies them into a capacity score measured in bits. This should be a measure of your brain power, underlying IQ. If the theory is correct
some people suggest that it is only a measure of reading speed, others not. In any case it is very consistent with either the "n-back speed theory" or the "n-back power theory" (increased span and speed). Some people suggest
that n-back just improves speed, while according to this theory speed is underlying brain power, making it possible to express intelligence on an absolute scale rather than a faked normalized one as they do in psychometrics.
A score around 20 bit/s might be indicative of "optimal genetics" or average but highly trained brain power. The major gene theory suggest 3 genotypes, where each allel either contributes with 70 or 35 bits, in that sense everything above a 130 IQ is equal in terms of genetics.

[Pontus Granström]

Would you say your IQ on some test is around 120?

[Aman Idle]

yes i remember getting that sort of a score long time ago. Then again i've seen 110 aswell. I took the test which continues to next round (3 tes) ended up with 80 bits, that's not good is it? Ok i am in university with lots of people talking around me so i am a bit disstracted, but 80 doesen't sounds too good compared to others.

[Pontus Granström]

80 bits sound a bit low yes, you have to be really focused when taking span tests. Give it a go with a fresh mind some other time.

[Aman Idle]

22.0 bit/sec on the speed test. I increased the volume of some calming chinese music in my headphones which blocked out the noise of some annoying blonde girls that can't do nothing but talk loud. The capital letters mixed with normal adds some difficulty but i like it. I've noticed that it helps looking slightly more towards the end of the span than the beginning.

[Aman Idle]

i've done other digit recal tests on other sites both forwards and backward, and 8 or 9 doesen't trouble me, so ill try more when i get home.

[Aman Idle]

Off topic. Aint got internet untill 10 of feb. Been without it for 2 weeks. Don't go with virgin media if u are in the uk, they suck. They have do digg up the ground to correct the cables, which they need council permission for. : /

[Aman Idle]

25 bit woho. :)

[freekyguy007]

FIRST TEST--http://www.google.com/url?sa=D&q=http://www.mental-
aktiv.de/mental-aktiv/Mentaltraining/Tests/flash_2.html

MY SCoRE- 10 -- its above 6.6 so its in the top high..yay !!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SECOND TEST--http://www.google.com/url?sa=D&q=http://www.mental-
aktiv.de/mental-aktiv/Mentaltraining/Tests/flash_4.html

MY SCoRE- 25.0 bits/s-- its over 21 bits/s in the chart so its
high..yay again(lolz)!!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
THIRD TEST--http://www.google.com/url?sa=D&q=http://www.mental-
aktiv.de/mental-aktiv/Mentaltraining/Tests/flash_1.html

MY SCoRE- 257 -- is it gud enough..? hehe.(no yay here:->)

got all these on the 1st attempt are the any good..

@PONTUS my fav i-doser doses are a-bomb and anesthesia..they
rockk.....a-bomb feels like a really steep roller coaster..

. also hey ive reached dual 3 back ..could u help me how do deal with
this im finding this difficult.....
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
god bless all

*PEACE*

[Aman Idle]

23.5bits/sec. Some of the words you remember, so even if u saw it quickly if u get three letters i think you can make it out, but so far i've seen all four letter and im improving.

 god bless all

 *PEACE*

[whoisbambam]

What is this neuroprogrammer stuff?

I found a transparentcorp website.........they have a np3
software............

but i am unsure how to use this in any meaningful way.............

you use it with the IOM device and Mind Stereo or something??

Can somebody explain this process, and is there real-world benefit in
cognitive enhancement?

thanks.



On Jan 16, 1:39 am, αrgvmziΩ σV <argum...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Nope. I've completely abandoned brain-wave manipulation software that
> I had been using, e.g., Gnaural and NeuroProgrammer. After using them
> for several years, I figured it was time to see what my brain would do
> on its own. It would appear that they have positively modulated my
> baseline activity, overall.
>
> Here's what I do now: exercise (mostly strength train); take vitamins;
> take nootropics, like piracetam, Alpha-GPC, etc. That's it.
>
> argumzio
>
> On Jan 16, 1:31 am, Arkanj3l <kenneth.bruskiew...@gmail.com> wrote:> Just curious Argumzio, do you still use brainwave manipulation of any
> > kind? Neurofeedback, for example, or binaural beats? You wrote up a
> > pretty good treatise on here a while ago, and it got me interested.
>
> > On Jan 16, 3:24 pm, αrgvmziΩ σV <argum...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > That was a while ago. I've taken a long break from training to see how
> > > my own WM functioning deteriorates with time. (An experiment few have
> > > done on themselves here.) Over all, my WM functioning still remains
> > > well above average, but it is not unparalleled like cev's, for
> > > example. However, despite the small decline, I've noticed that I am
> > > able to think of original solutions to various problems, and that my
> > > WM functioning is hardly ever a real barrier; it would appear that my
> > > mind exercises it quite well, so the deterioration seems to have
> > > reached a levelling point.
>
> > > In any case, once I get the hankering for it, I will begin training
> > > afresh with a well-defined regimen on a more difficult mode.
>
> > > Others here are currently working with more difficult modes than QNB,
> > > and say there are good benefits from them as well. It is simply that
> > > from my experience, you can really _feel_ the need to focus on QNB
> > > than DNB. YMMV.
>
> > > argumzio
>
> > > On Jan 16, 1:17 am, Działo, Christopher <chrisdzi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Naturally.
>
> > > > Do you perform daily training on QNB solely? Why do you choose QNB when you
> > > > could play more advanced n-back modalities such as PCSNB (position, color,
> > > > sound) at n=3+
>
> > > > On Sun, Jan 16, 2011 at 2:12 AM, αrgvmziΩ σV <argum...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > It's harder. And it feels more refreshing than DNB. I could perceive
> > > > > benefits more saliently with QNB than I did DNB. This is my honest
> > > > > appraisal.
>
> > > > > argumzio
>
> > > > > On Jan 16, 1:09 am, Działo, Christopher <chrisdzi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > Why do you recommend QNB?
>
> > > > > > On Sun, Jan 16, 2011 at 2:07 AM, αrgvmziΩ σV <argum...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > Thank you for sharing this, Min Mae. (Very nice name, if I may say
> > > > > > > so!)
>
> > > > > > > The shortest answer to your question is that we need _a lot_ more
> > > > > > > evidence to determine if fluid intelligence is really being improved
> > > > > > > by the practice of this tool. In any event, you made some pretty good
> > > > > > > gains (and you reflect some of the results in the literature when you
> > > > > > > mention that you were only able to answer _more_ questions, not
> > > > > > > necessarily figure the harder ones out), so it isn't a bad idea to
> > > > > > > continue training.
>
> > > > > > > I recommend QNB, in particular.
>
> > > > > > > argumzio
>
> > > > > > > On Jan 15, 10:13 pm, Min Mae <re5...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > Previously I had a RAPM  IQ test result was 112 by certified
> > > > > > > > psychologist .In
>
> > > > > > > > 2009 August I practiced DNB 2.5 hours a day for 20 days with time off
> > > > > > > > two
>
> > > > > > > > days, Saturday and Sunday.
> > > > > > > > After 20 days I took RAPM test in my university  by certified
> > > > > > > > psychologist.
> > > > > > > > I got IQ gain was  12.1 points. In the test i was only able to answer
> > > > > > > > more
>
> > > > > > > > questions that related to changes in position of objects in the
> > > > > > > > test(RAPM).
>
> > > > > > > > At 2010/04/12 I started SNB(single N-Back, visual modality) with
> > > > > > > > training time
>
> > > > > > > > was same as on DNB training time for 20 days. IQ gain by RAPM test
> > > > > was
> > > > > > > > no
>
> > > > > > > > change.That time i also was able  to answer more questions that
> > > > > > > > related to
>
> > > > > > > > changes in position of objects in the  RAPM test.
>
> > > > > > > > I also did not forget to give nutritions for my brain and my body
> > > > > when
> > > > > > > > DNB and
>
> > > > > > > > SNB training.
>
> > > > > > > > So i conclude N- back trainings(DNB n SNB) only improve visual
> > > > > > > > spatial
>
> > > > > > > > perception and they can not improve abstract reasoning/
> > > > > > > > Gf(indispensable in
>
> > > > > > > > mathematics and management).
>
> > > > > > > > so my question is :
> > > > > > > > can N-Back training improve fluid intelligence?
>
> > > > > > > > thx

>
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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> > > > > > > "Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence" group.
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> > > > > <brain-training%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com<brain-training%252Bunsubscri b...@googlegroups.com>
>
> > > > > > > .

> > > > > > > For more options, visit this group at
> > > > > > >http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training?hl=en.
>

> > > > > --
> > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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> > > > > brain-trainin...@googlegroups.com<brain-training%2Bunsubscribe@go oglegroups.com>
> > > > > .

[Pontus Granström]

It's a brainwave entrainer thing, quite complex with a lot of presets and the possibility to create your own.

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[Min Mae]

For 1st round (DNB)i got 12 points.
For 2nd round(single N-Back) i got same result,12 points.
so my IQ is 136(before my IQ was 112).

On Jan 24, 7:09 am, Windt <keif...@aol.com> wrote:
> So, I am confused. Did Min Mae increase his IQ the second timetrainingwithn-back. The first round he gained 12 iq points however
> it is somewhat unclear if he increased his score with using singlenback. Did Min Mae experience a second IQ increase inintelligence?

>
> On Jan 23, 6:21 pm, jttoto <jtdem...@uncc.edu> wrote:
>
>
>

> > Strange, despite all my Dnbtraining, my speed is high (25 bits/s

> > > > > clear understanding aboutintelligencein terms of cognition, why n-backing

> > > > > might be a very good candidate for IQ improvements, and why speed RAPM
> > > > > correlates so highly will full scale IQ (it taps the underlying biology of G
> > > > > rather than an isolated constant).
>
> > > > > 2011/1/20 whoisbambam <smath...@gmail.com>:
>
> > > > > > Some of you guys are soooo confusing.
>
> > > > > > So........
>

> > > > > > Are there ways toimproveintelligence/aptitude, or not? And what

> > > > > > might they be?
>
> > > > > > In other words, let us say we want to acquire new information, like if
> > > > > > we want to go to college.........
>
> > > > > > Or if we were working with a surgeon who used 30 different instruments
> > > > > > for 10 different kinds of surgeries...........
>

> > > > > > Are there things wecando to help  us in these kinds of real-world

> > > > > > situatons?
>
> > > > > > I was thinking it would be something like:
> > > > > >nbacktraining
> > > > > > modafinil
> > > > > > Magnesium L treonate (mgT)
> > > > > > cardiovascular exercise (25minutes a day on a treadmill, 5days a week,
> > > > > > 70% maximal heart rate)
>
> > > > > > possibly lumosity and posit science, possibly rise of nations
>
> > > > > > On Jan 19, 6:48 pm, αrgvmziΩ σV <argum...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >> Oh, so now you're the authority on fora dynamics? That is doubly
> > > > > >> intriguing considering... ;)
>
> > > > > >> Not that I'm nominating myself for the job, of course.
>
> > > > > >> argumzio
>

> > > > > >> P.S. I've done my homework, so Ican't give thanks for that which I'm

> > > > > "DualN-Back, BrainTraining&Intelligence" group.> To post to this group, send email to brain-t...@googlegroups.com.

> > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>
> > > > > brain-trainin...@googlegroups.com<brain-training%2Bunsubscribe@go­­oglegroups.com>
> > > > > .> For more options, visit this group at
>

> > > > >http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training?hl=en.-Hide quoted text -

[ailambris]

no way

> > > > > >http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training?hl=en.-Hidequoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Pontus Granström]

If you take into account that a 5 point gain is usually seen without training, it's a 19 point gain, very consistent with the other studies. It's above the average gain somewhat, but not remarkably high. You also switched training regime, which
might be recommended. It would be interesting if you could take a BIP test http://www.mental-aktiv.de/mental-aktiv/Mentaltraining/Tests/flash_4.html and report your bit/s.

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[cyberiad]

First attempt: 50 bit/s

http://i1228.photobucket.com/albums/ee443/21616/Picture15.png

On Jan 27, 2:50 am, Pontus Granström <lepon...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If you take into account that a 5 point gain is usually seen without
> training, it's a 19 point gain, very consistent with the other studies. It's
> above the average gain somewhat, but not remarkably high. You also switched
> training regime, which

> might be recommended. It would be interesting if you could take a BIP testhttp://www.mental-aktiv.de/mental-aktiv/Mentaltraining/Tests/flash_4....
> report your bit/s.

> > > > > > > > brain-trainin...@googlegroups.com<brain-training%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>

> > <brain-training%2Bunsubscribe@go­­­oglegroups.com>
> > > > > > > > .> For more options, visit this group at
>
> > > > > > > >http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training?hl=en.-Hidequotedtext-
>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > --
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[whoisbambam]

So what is the consensus on this thread title?:
Can N-back training improve fluid intelligence?

It seems there is more and more evidence supporting the fact that
Nback training improves working memory, fluid intelligence, and the
gains are appreciated after a night's sleep, correct?


And dual nback has the most appreciative effect?

BTW, does anybody know what the 'effect' is? 0.2, 0.5, 0.8, 1.1??

I forgot the adjective in front of effect, but i believe i read that
less than 0.5 really is nothing appreciative.

thanks.

On Jan 27, 2:50 am, Pontus Granström <lepon...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If you take into account that a 5 point gain is usually seen without
> training, it's a 19 point gain, very consistent with the other studies. It's
> above the average gain somewhat, but not remarkably high. You also switched
> training regime, which

> might be recommended. It would be interesting if you could take a BIP testhttp://www.mental-aktiv.de/mental-aktiv/Mentaltraining/Tests/flash_4....
> report your bit/s.

> > > > > > > > brain-trainin...@googlegroups.com<brain-training%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>

> > <brain-training%2Bunsubscribe@go­­­oglegroups.com>
> > > > > > > > .> For more options, visit this group at
>
> > > > > > > >http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training?hl=en.-Hidequotedtext-
>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to brain-t...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

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[Pontus Granström]

My personal best is 28.6, I don't like that decimal though since a bit is a discrete unit that can't be divided. I guess it means 29 bit since I must have scored above 28 to get a 28.6 "average". It's strange to get bits with a decimal in any case.
If you got a 50 bit/s then you are at least almost twice as intelligent as I am.

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to brain-trainin...@googlegroups.com.

[Działo, Christopher]

This is absolutely horrible.

 I took the bit test and scored no more then 11bits/sec. I'm wondering if this may not be accurate test for my person -- I am dyslexic: having troubles writing, spelling, and always confuse my left and right. I have been spending 1h daily with n-back, along with a rigorous supplement, exercise, and reading regimen.

I score 12 digits/letters on the digit span tests without troubles, and can even reach up to 15 depending on the sequence.

[carvalhoneto]

Pontus

I reached 30.8 bit/s after a few tries. The minimum was 16.7 bit/s.
. 50 bit/s!!!!!!!!!! No Way I THINK THAT IS Superhuman

Augusto

[jsibley1]

I only seem to get at most 10 bits/second on that test. Maybe I'm
doing it wrong?

[Pontus Granström]

Would you say that you got a slow reading speed? You got any IQ-test
results that indicate well below average performance?

On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 5:23 PM, jsibley1 <jsib...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I only seem to get at most 10 bits/second on that test. Maybe I'm
> doing it wrong?
>

[Działo, Christopher]

Something remarkable has happened.

After consumption of a psychoactive compound, I am now able to each 23 bits/sec. Several weeks ago, it was not possible for me to get more then 11.4 bits/sec. I have been able to maintain performance, and perform daily n-backing. Objects now have a visual trail and feel something has dramatically happened to my visual memory.

On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 11:23 AM, jsibley1 <jsib...@gmail.com> wrote:

I only seem to get at most 10 bits/second on that test. Maybe I'm
doing it wrong?

[Aman Idle]

whats this compund if u dont mind me asking?

2011/2/7 Działo, Christopher <chris...@gmail.com>

[jsibley1]

Thank you for the reply!

In general, I have a slow reading speed. Whatever sentence I read or
hear, I forget the one preceding it. So I read slow to process the
information before moving on. I find it hard to socialize because I
cannot keep up with discussions. With regards to the score of 10 bit/
s... I have no problem seeing the letters and recognizing them. My
problem is processing it to working memory quickly enough.

Though, I do know that I'm quite intelligent despite a sub-par working
memory. I have a BS in Mathematics. I do not have any official IQ
scores... but I've taken a few of the "legitimate" self-tests and have
scored an average around 130-135. In elementary school, I was in their
gifted program and commended for my creativity.

When I'm presented with a new challenge, I fumble around like a brain
dead dolt because I have a hard time holding and processing new
information. But once I get everything committed to long term memory,
I surpass many of the best.

[Działo, Christopher]

Casual use of vaporized N,N-Dimethyltryptamine over the past 4-5 days. I feel greatly advanced, I don't know what the experiences have structurally altered my brain, but combined with my diet, exercise and supplements -- the world is much more fluid and clear, I now experience some permanent ghost-like trailing effect when objects move. It appears I have acquired this profound control over my form and pushed my mind to new limits. It's been several days and this state of mind is still present. For the past several days, I feel nothing but animal like, alien and have a new perspective on what it means to live and be a creature of life. My motor control has been greatly increased, typing skills are faster, and n-backing is more fluid. I have also went from a rehearsal type method to a purely intuitive approach, allowing my scores to increase along with the ease of the task. I am much more agile, and feel I have discovered, unlocked or sparked a higher level control of my person.

[menesus]

Just curious, were the health and diet changes before taking DMT? (I
know you mentioned zinc before, etc.)

Is it dose-dependent? How long does it last? Have you noticed any side
effects?

On Feb 7, 3:34 pm, Działo, Christopher <chrisdzi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> *Casual use of vaporized N,N*-Dimethyltryptamine over the past 4-5 days. I

> feel greatly advanced, I don't know what the experiences have
> structurally altered my
> brain, but combined with my diet, exercise and supplements -- the world is
> much more fluid and clear, I now experience some permanent ghost-like
> trailing effect when objects move. It appears I have acquired this profound
> control over my form and pushed my mind to new limits. It's been several
> days and this state of mind is still present. For the past several days, I
> feel nothing but animal like, alien and have a new perspective on what it
> means to live and be a creature of life. My motor control has been greatly
> increased, typing skills are faster, and n-backing is more fluid. I have
> also went from a rehearsal type method to a purely intuitive approach,
> allowing my scores to increase along with the ease of the task. I am much
> more agile, and feel I have discovered, unlocked or sparked a higher level
> control of my person.
>

> On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 3:27 PM, Aman Idle <aman.i...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > whats this compund if u dont mind me asking?
>

> > 2011/2/7 Działo, Christopher <chrisdzi...@gmail.com>

>
> >> Something remarkable has happened.
>
> >> After consumption of a psychoactive compound, I am now able to each 23
> >> bits/sec. Several weeks ago, it was not possible for me to get more then
> >> 11.4 bits/sec. I have been able to maintain performance, and perform daily
> >> n-backing. Objects now have a visual trail and feel something has
> >> dramatically happened to my visual memory.
>

[jttoto]

Honestly, due to retest effects, it is possible that the only thing
you are doing is training to become better at the game, not training
to improve your processing speed. I can practice RAPM questions for
months and get better at them, but it doesn't mean I'm any smarter.
Hell, I improved my score substantially on just the 2nd try. Clearly
there is a Gc element involved after the first game. Your score on
the first try is most indicative of your actual speed.

I'm not saying that playing this game doesn't have far-transfer
benefits, but I am saying that there is (to my knowledge) no proof
that you are training anything other than the skill at the game
itself.

[jttoto]

Yes, I know plenty of intelligent people with subpar WM. Usually
these people are incredibly gifted at inductive reasoning and
discovering relations despite their disadvantage in memory. It kind
of reminds me of the study on "Aha!" problem solvers.

[likeprestige]

There is a strong relationship between WMC and reasoning abilities,
which is based off a number of recent empirical studies.

There was a small research effort to put them into separate boxes a
few years ago, but there is nothing new that suggests that this is the
case.

If anyone can steer me into _recent_ research that suggests the
latter, please do so because I can't find anything new that discredits
the first statement.

[jttoto]

I seem to recall that reasoning and WMC are correlated rather strongly
with reasoning according to the "quantity not quality" paper. But
even with a correlation of .66 there are always exceptions to the
rule. (I would also want to note, that visual reasoning tests deal
with novel and abstract information. So it seems reasonable that
there is resolving proactive interference becomes less of a factor. I
wish the study looked at verbal and mathematical reasoning as well)

I will admit that my inference is mostly conjecture not supported by
strong evidence. (though not disproven) I was merely pointing out
that some people are able to solve problems without consciously
thinking of it (the Aha solvers) It seems intuitive that WM becomes
less important for the "Aha!" solvers than it does the methodical
ones. (in fact, at least based on the article, the main driving force
of their problem solving involved areas of the brain associated with
daydreaming and visual processing, although I admit the researchers
did not isolate WM as a noncontributing factor)

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080129170702.htm

[jttoto]

In short, I'm not trying to say that WM and reasoning don't have a
strong relation. However, I am open to the idea that some are able to
reason well despite a poor WM. For example, despite a recent study
showing people with Asperger's excelling in the RAPM on average, the
disorder is well known for its attention and WM deficits.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10536083

[Noah Dunn]

How do I convert my score to bits per second?

On Jan 19, 4:04 am, Pontus Granström <lepon...@gmail.com> wrote:
> A 135 IQ matches exactly with 200.00 bits according to the graph at the
> homepage.
>
> On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 1:02 PM, likeprestige <plastic...@live.com.au>wrote:
>
> > Wow Joe G, tremendous score.
>
> > I obtained 200.00 bits exactly, lol.
>
> > likeprestige
>
> > On Jan 19, 9:00 am, Joe G <thought.2...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > > Ooooh, fun test. On my first attempt I scored 276.9 bits. Rather happy
> > > with that.
>
> > > On a note more salient to this discussion, I took the WAIS-IV
> > > yesterday and will be receiving my scores soon, I took the WAIS-III
> > > roughly 2.5 years ago - though I was only 14 then, and just 16 now, so
> > > I am not sure of the usefulness of comparing my scores. I will report
> > > back any gains/changes. As mentioned in another thread, the score will
> > > have contain data on many aspects of intelligence, so that will be
> > > useful for comparing the various factors.
>
> > > On Jan 18, 9:31 pm, "Oinchack'Olp" <motsog...@yahoo.de> wrote:
>
> > > > > It trains WM but is not a measure of WM capacity (C).
>
> > > > There is a test of WMC made by Dr. Lehrl and his peers athttp://
> >www.mental-aktiv.de/mental-aktiv/Mentaltraining/Tests/flash_1....
>
> > > > Although german language, it is almost self explaining. Notice that if
> > > > you remember false and so make an error in an exercise, you get 1
> > > > second try. Note also that when "*" characters (wildcard characters)
> > > > appear in that test, you are supposed to ignore them!
>
> > > > My personal result today was:
> > > >    "Vielen Dank für Ihr Mitmachen! Ihre Arbeitsspeicherkapazität
> > > > beträgt aktuell 120.0 bit"
> > > > = "Thank you for your participation! Your WMC currently is 120.0 bit"
>
> > > > This was the second time (in all my life) I made that test. My first
> > > > time was 4 months ago and the result then was 92,5 or 93,5 bit, don't
> > > > know exactly anymore. It is also late at the evening in germany ( 10
> > > > pm ), so it might be that at the morning I would get a better result.
> > > > I am relatively awaken, though, and not really weary.
>
> > > > Merkspanne (~"length of memory") and Verarbeitungsgeschwindigkeit
> > > > (=information processing speed) can be tested also separately, see:
> >http://www.mental-aktiv.de/mental-aktiv/Mentaltraining/Test_Gehirnlei...
>
> > > > Remember, ignore the "*" characters in those tests!

>
> > --
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> > To post to this group, send email to brain-t...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> > brain-trainin...@googlegroups.com<brain-training%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>

[Pontus Granström]

According to Frank (1985) the mean channel capacity of IQ 130 is 140
bits, 105 bits of IQ 112, and 70 bits of IQ 92.

I don't remember exactly but I think I interpolated it somewhat. From
a biological (genetics) point of view it might be interesting to know
if you are "high,average or low", but from a psychometric point of
view (where other factors contribute)
more exact numbers might be interesting. There's a gap between
biological intelligence and psychometrical intelligence that doesn't
make it that strange that different things can improve the score.

http://www.v-weiss.de/lehrl-full.html

> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to brain-trainin...@googlegroups.com.

[Pontus Granström]

http://www.v-weiss.de/publ9-e.html

table 3 contains the information your are looking for, do some
approximate interpolation for scores that falls in between. Column c
contains bit and columnh contains IQ.