Ilcho Gavrilov
Novica
Three years jail for for stepping on the flag. Three years jail for
showing "disrespect" to the symbols of the state......
Will the people who robbed countless Macedonians of their life
savings ever see the inside of a courtroom, let alone a prison cell?
No, because the latter are SDSM members (and important ones at that)
while the former is a member of VMRO-DPMNU. You can "disrespect" the
citizens of Macedonia by robbing people of their money, running the
economy into the ground, selling off state assests to party members
for a song, being involved in all sorts of corruption but p l e a se,
c i t i z e n s, don't "disrespect" the flag.......... It would be
such a hilarious joke if there wasn't a man facing three years in
jail.
The TAT criminals, who have left a trail of suicides and broken
families in their wake, remain unpunished while a citizen exercising
his basic right to protest in a manner which has not hurt anybody
(except for the "dignity" of the state) is sentenced to three years
jail. The logic is Orwellian.
The sad irony, of course, is that two years ago the government showed
extreme "disrespect" to Macedonia's first flag by unilaterally
changing it without even asking the people. Given that VMRO-DPMNU and
the Democratic Party boycotted the last elections the government that
made that decision was not even representative of the whole
electorate - which should have made it an even greater imperative to
go to a referendum on the issue because the current government does
not have a mandate.
SDSM's quiet steps towards a one party system have now become giant
leaps towards totalitarianism. Macedonia is now a one party state and
Ilcho Gavrilov is a political prisoner.
Any Makedoners who might be members of Amnesty International should
bring Ilcho's case before their local group. Contact your federal
member of parliament or write to your country's foreign or justice
minister and ask them to take this matter up with the Macedonian
government.
Any other suggestions about how else we can manifest our support?
Regards
Novica
Peter
Novica wrote:
I support your position on this issue 100% .
In Australia it is possible to burn the Australian and other national
flags in Protests or Demonstrations without any legal recrimination.
Macedonian Democracy is a "Claytons Democracy"( a Democracy when you
don't have Democracy).
Regards
Peter
Luben Todorovski
Novica wrote:
>
> Three years jail for for stepping on the flag. Three years jail for
> showing "disrespect" to the symbols of the state......
>
> Will the people who robbed countless Macedonians of their life
> savings ever see the inside of a courtroom, let alone a prison cell?
>
> No, because the latter are SDSM members (and important ones at that)
> while the former is a member of VMRO-DPMNU. You can "disrespect" the
> citizens of Macedonia by robbing people of their money, running the
> economy into the ground, selling off state assests to party members
> for a song, being involved in all sorts of corruption but p l e a se,
> c i t i z e n s, don't "disrespect" the flag.......... It would be
> such a hilarious joke if there wasn't a man facing three years in
> jail.
>
> The TAT criminals, who have left a trail of suicides and broken
> families in their wake, remain unpunished while a citizen exercising
> his basic right to protest in a manner which has not hurt anybody
> (except for the "dignity" of the state) is sentenced to three years
> jail. The logic is Orwellian.
>
Yeah, the Macedonian Social Democrats (ex-communist) have a very
"exotic" definition of democracy and the rule of law. Poor Ilcho,
this tme he will be the one to pay the highest price of the MK political
and juridical perversion. The logic is not Orwellian,
the logic is pure Gligorovian.
> The sad irony, of course, is that two years ago the government showed
> extreme "disrespect" to Macedonia's first flag by unilaterally
> changing it without even asking the people. Given that VMRO-DPMNU and
> the Democratic Party boycotted the last elections the government that
> made that decision was not even representative of the whole
> electorate - which should have made it an even greater imperative to
> go to a referendum on the issue because the current government does
> not have a mandate.
>
It is our tragedy, Novica . The "wise man" Gligorov and the
rest of his gang of criminals that call themselves a legitimate
Macedonian government could expect that their newly designed
flag would not have any respect among the MK citizens. Frankly
the propellers on the RoM flag mean nothing to me.
By the way the symbols of RoM where adopted they are
more sign of humiliation than dignity.
I will be really surprised to see a Macedonian that will
see the RoM flag as an identification of his "national dignity".
I am afraid tomorrow I can be put aside for 3 years for disrespect
of some newly designed name of my fatherland. The names and the party
of the possible designers are not hard to guess, they will remained the
same.
> SDSM's quiet steps towards a one party system have now become giant
> leaps towards totalitarianism. Macedonia is now a one party state and
> Ilcho Gavrilov is a political prisoner.
>
Macedonia needs new elections, new government. It is now up to
Gligorov to decide to step down together with his miserable gang. He
still
has slight chances to leave the post of president of Republic of
Macedonia with some dignity and to be remembered as the first
president of democratic and independent Macedonia.
But my experience is telling me such a thing is hardly possible
from a man with Gligorov's moral in politics. He became a president by
an act of a political intrigue. The first thing he has shown as a
president
was that he is not a person whose word can be trusted. His incompetence
and
the incompetence of the gang of young and stupid SDS politicians of
the Crvenkovki kind has devastated the Macedonian
economy, our national dignity, etc. If somebody has shown disrespect
to
the Macedonian Republic and MK citizens, that is him and his party.
They act deaf to the fact that only 20% of Macedonians have some
support for the ruling party. They try to convince themselves that
the meaningless peace of cloth called new Macedonian flag is a symbol of
our national dignity.
They should know, their flag is only a symbol of our misfortune to have
them
govern our beloved country.
> Any Makedoners who might be members of Amnesty International should
> bring Ilcho's case before their local group. Contact your federal
> member of parliament or write to your country's foreign or justice
> minister and ask them to take this matter up with the Macedonian
> government.
>
> Any other suggestions about how else we can manifest our support?
>
I will suggest a fond to be formed that will be used for a skillful
attorney for Ilcho. I suppose a way can be found in the MK legal system
for another fair trial. You should know that Ilcho is not the first
victim of
the SDS perversion. Lets hope he will be the last.
Pozdrav:
Bube
> Regards
>
> Novica
Toni D. Stojanovski
Dali se sekavame na na 20-godisnata skopjanka koja pred 2-3 godini bese
zaklana so 20-tina ubodi od noz?
Pametime li kako zavrsi ubiecot?
Ako dobro pametam, prvo bese zatvoren, pa pusten da se brani od sloboda,
za na kraj da izbega od Makedonija.
Mozebi ne mu pomognalo toa sto ministerot za nadovresni raboti mu e
blizok rodnina. Mozebi.:)
Koj mu e kriv na Ilco Gavrilov sto vujko mu ne e vladika?
Propelerot go izgazi tokmu togas koga na vlasta i trebase da si ja
prodolzi hajkata protiv opozicijata.
Znameto go gazel 10-tina sekundi, sudenjeto mu traelo 1 saat, a kaznata
3 godini.
SDSM-ovska demokratija, i se' e mozno.
Bi bilo ubavo da slusneme komentar od makedonerite koi minatata godina
go velicea Gligorov i negovata nominacija za Nobelovata nagrada. I
negovata politika i mudrost.
Kazete nesto i za negovite najnovi "mudrosti".
Toni.
Michael Seraphinoff
The "crime" of Ilcho G. as described by Novica certainly doesn't justify
the punishment. If Macedonia wants to be acceptable to the world community
it must respect human rights standards of the larger community. I also
think that Amnesty International would be interested in such a case. (But
remember that AI also defended some Albanians that Macedonians thought
deserved their punishment in the past.) Beware of double standards.
I would also be interested in knowing the status of such a crime in
other countries. There was such a controversy in the US that almost led
to flag burners serving prison terms, but our Supreme Court overruled such
punishment. Flags are often misused as symbols. Here in the US the used
car dealers have the largest flags of all.
Michael Seraphinoff
st...@oldwoman.serma.cea.fr
Tri godini za gazenje zname, epten go preterale.
Znam deka site ne mislat kako mene. Ima mnogumina, vo Makedonija
i vo svetot, sto smetaat deka za zname treba da se gine i moze da se
ubiva. Predpostavuvam deka onie sto zaginaa vo Gostivar, nivnite
istomislenici gi smetaat za heroi i macenici. A onie sto gi ubija, da
ne zboruvam za onie sto tepaa, mnogumina gi odobruvaat.
Ima mnogumina sto mislat deka znameto so sonceto trebase da
se brani po sekoja cena.
Iako, kako sto predpostavuvam spored ona sto go citame, i Ilco
e od tie sto smetaat deka za zname treba da se gine, a posle veli
" ne, ne pijan bev", besmisleno i glupavo e voopsto da se stava vo
zatvor za toa. Edna kloca vo gazot, dovolno mu e. A za vo negovata
zatvorska celija, ima tolku mnogu drugi pozasluzni od nego.
v
Zarko
Novica
The Sydney Uni Macedonian Society will be meeting this Friday in the
Wentworth building on Level 5 in Room 4 at 1pm.
All interested people are invited to intend. Amongst other things
we'll be discussing a planned harbour cruise (which will be held
sometime during the mid - semester break, so Sydney Makedoners keep
it in mind!)
Regards
Novica
lask...@students.wisc.edu
The state of Texas stil has a law which allows the State of Texas to
persecute individuals misusing the flag of the United States, even in
somewhat "harmless misusage" such as placing upside down, with the stars on
the bottom, as a way to symbolize "down with the United States."
As far as the law on the flag in Macedonia is conserned, if the guy had a
problem with SDSM, he should have stepped on the flag of SDSM, and in that
case any persecution could not have been justified, and probably would not
have followed.
Ilcho knew clearly that a persecution would follow, yet he played with the
fire and got burned. Tough. The problem is not with the ruling of the
court, but with the law. Jury in the United States is not asked to make a
desicion on what they think is right, but on what they think the law says
is right, and in the case of Ilcho he was guilty.
Unfortenately the tragedy does not end here, but it continues on makedon,
where the same individuals that would have hailed the Government of
Macedonia if Ilcho was an Albanian, and probably even demanding a stronger
punishment under the excuse "pa ssto tatka baral da go gazi znameto, neka
si odi vo Albaija toa da go pravi" , now offer "civilized" examples from
the advanced and democratic white west, such as the Netherlands. The law
was passed to please individuals like you, who would have expected action
had it been an Albanian or Greek burning the flag. Unfortunately it
happened to a Macedonian.
All the examples of the liberal countries given are completely unaplicable
to Macedonia. The Netherlands has legalized light opiates (drugs), such as
marijuana, alternative forms of sexuality are widely accepted, AIDS is not
viewed as a divine punishment for perverse sexual practices striking the
ones that deserve it, and the dress code is liberal as well. In Macedonia
we are not ready to accept any of these liberal ideas, such as drugs, dress
code other than "orginal (a.k.a. turski) petsokec i najk", and not to even
bother with inter-ethnic or God forbid inter-racial or same sex marriages.
To illustrate this, remember the discussion on Macedonians marrying
Americans last year,including partners of other racial groups. And if that
was not enough, in Prilep, the first Macedonian AIDS case (a man, his wife
and their two children) did not die of opportunistic infections, as it is
the case in the civilized West, but of hunger and cold because the people
of Prilep did not want to touch anything they have touched (nobody even
accepted the guy's money for food).
Yet when it serves the purpose to bash on the Government we find liberal
examples such as the Netherlands very useful, not admitting that Macedonia
is not ready to accept the whole liberal package deal, in order not to
cause cognitive dissonance, and to consequently be forced to accept
something we do not like.
Liberalism and democracy is greater that the mere sum of its parts, and
taking just bits and pieces that suit us and leaving out the rest does not
make us liberal nor democratic. it is an all or nothing deal.
In summary, ilcho should not have burned the flag of Macedonia if his
problem was SDSM. And examples of liberal countries do not serve the
argument that he is innocent, because we are not liberal yet, and if it
were an Albanian burning the flag, any action taken against him/her would
have please the majority on Makedon.
dsl
Luben Todorovski
Epten.
> Znam deka site ne mislat kako mene. Ima mnogumina, vo Makedonija
> i vo svetot, sto smetaat deka za zname treba da se gine i moze da se
> ubiva. Predpostavuvam deka onie sto zaginaa vo Gostivar, nivnite
> istomislenici gi smetaat za heroi i macenici. A onie sto gi ubija, da
> ne zboruvam za onie sto tepaa, mnogumina gi odobruvaat.
>
Za zname bi trabalo da se "gine", neznam dali bilo shto e tolku vredno
za da se ubiva. Samo znameto treba da ima nekoe znachenje, neli?
Ne mislam na zakonsko. Morame da si priznaeme deka nasheto
drzhavno zname nema ama bilo kakvo znachenie za bilo kogo vo RoM.
Pretstavuva jaden dizajn na Gligorovata impotentna polika i
kaka takvo e samo pokazatel na nashata nesreka seushte da go imame
kako pretsedatel na nashata drzhava.
>
> Ima mnogumina sto mislat deka znameto so sonceto trebase da
> se brani po sekoja cena.
>
Znameto so sonceto imashe vazhnost i seushte se polzuva kako idifikacija
na Makedoskata ideja. Iako vo momentot ne e drzhavno zname, sepak za
mnogumina Makedonci vo zemjata i dijasporata e obelezhje na nashata
nacija.
> Iako, kako sto predpostavuvam spored ona sto go citame, i Ilco
> e od tie sto smetaat deka za zname treba da se gine, a posle veli
> " ne, ne pijan bev", besmisleno i glupavo e voopsto da se stava vo
> zatvor za toa. Edna kloca vo gazot, dovolno mu e. A za vo negovata
> zatvorska celija, ima tolku mnogu drugi pozasluzni od nego.
>
Neosporno e deka Ilcho neposeduva nitu politichka, nitu opshta kultura.
No 3 godini vo Idrizovo nema da mu pomognat vo toj pogled. Chovekot
e zhrtva na politichka igra. Iskoristen e od SDSM za da najnizok nachin
sobere bar malce simpatii od nekoi vo MK koi seushte si go trujat
mozokot
so izdanijata na velepropasta narechena NIP Nova Makedonija.
Od druga strana e napushten od VMRO-DPMNE bidejki partijata koja
ima najgolema podrshka vo Makedonskiot elektorat sigurno nejke da
gradi imidz na huliganstvo. Ne treba chovek da bide genie da
go svati molkot na partijata vo odnos na sluchajot Ilco protiv
narodot. Ilcho e zhrtva na svojata glupost i na niskata i valkana
igra narechena Makedonska politika.
Pozdrav:
Bube
> v
> Zarko