Bass Runs Up or Down?

[Dave Overton]

Is there any concensus on whether to play ascending or
descending bass runs going from the root to the 4 or
5, and then from the 4 or 5 back to the root?
What do y'all do?
Thanks,
Dave

"Rock me momma like the wind and rain."

[Hal Laurent]

Dave Overton said:
>
> Is there any concensus on whether to play ascending or
> descending bass runs going from the root to the 4 or 5, and
> then from the 4 or 5 back to the root?

That depends on whether the note your going to is higher or lower than the
one you're coming from. :-)

Make sure you listen to the guitar player. If he's playing an ascending
run, you shouldn't (to my ear) also be playing an ascending run. In that
situation I'd either do a descending run or no run at all.

Be sparing with runs. If you do them all of the time they lose their
impact.

And most importantly, listen! Not just to yourself, but to yourself in the
context of the whole band.

--
Hal Laurent
Baltimore

[Josh Dayton]

Hey Dave,

There really is no right answer. It depends on the song, the key, the
lead instrument, the vocals, the tempo and other stuff. My answer is
listen to Bales or Wilborn and copy them. They are the two best note
choice guys around. They mostly stay with 1 and 5. Those guys do put in
runs but they are in the right place and time. To me runs are very
important to creating emphasis (though not the only way). However, you
generally want to avoid "notey" bass playing because in bluegrass settings
it can get bothersome to many people.

Therefore, modern Bluegrass bass tends to be more about how you play and
where you put the notes (1&5) as opposed to the number of notes. In many
cases similar emphasis to a run can be made by shortening and/or
lenghthening you note duration as opposed to using a run. There are other
little tricks for emphasis like pushing or pulling on the beat, staying on
the 1 of the chord, ghost notes, playing octaves, and others. If your not
sure if a run should go in it's better to leave it out... usually.
However saying that there are many GREAT players who use runs all
throughout the song and sound killer. The moral of the story is trust
your ears and don't get in the way. Hope this helps. Later.

Josh

[Keith Bowers]

Hello to all on BGbass.......

Have always found great insights on this list and have a couple questions-

We are going to be visiting Kauai Sept 25-Oct 11
and Oahu Oct 11 thru 16
and we were wondering if there are any BG jams or concert events
going on during those dates?

Also is there anywhere one could rent a double bass?

I will be bringing my mando and guitar, are there any caveats on
flying Hawaiian Airlines with instruments? Ive taken the mando
before with no problems.

Any info much appreciated.

Keith Bowers
Kristi O'Donnell
Whibey Island WA

[Barb Diederich]

At 1:05 PM -0400 9/8/06, Hal Laurent wrote:
>Make sure you listen to the guitar player. If he's playing an ascending
>run, you shouldn't (to my ear) also be playing an ascending run. In that
>situation I'd either do a descending run or no run at all.

I would say just the opposite. If the guitar player is doing an
ascending run and the bass is doing a descending run, they get in
each other's way. The bass should either double the guitar or not do
a run at all.

This is especially important when the guitarist is doing a syncopated
run. If you can't double it, stay out of the way.
--
--Barb
Bluegrass bassist 301-949-6887
________________________________________________________________________

Barb Diederich's Bluegrass Links and Lyrics: http://www.barbdiederich.com/
Over 2500 bluegrass-related links and 9000 lyrics!

[Bob Schacht]

Keith & Kristi,
I am forwarding your query to Caroline Wright, founder and President of
Bluegrass Hawaii (website http://bluegrasshawaii.com/).

I live on Oahu and play bass; you could borrow my bass for a few occasions,
unless you're persnickety about basses <G>. I suspect that there are
certain persons on this list who would not play my bass even if marooned on
a desert island with it (Its an Anton Schroetter, ca. 1975, with original
plywood top). But when I bought it new in 1975 from Weaver's Violin Shop in
Washington D.C., it was the best $300 investment I've ever made. There are
a couple of other bluegrass bassists here on Oahu, and they probably have
"better" basses.

Aloha,
Bob in HI
Secretary, BGHawaii

[Bob Schacht]

At 09:39 AM 9/8/2006, Barb Diederich wrote:

At 1:05 PM -0400 9/8/06, Hal Laurent wrote:
>Make sure you listen to the guitar player.  If he's playing an ascending
>run, you shouldn't (to my ear) also be playing an ascending run.  In that
>situation I'd either do a descending run or no run at all.

I would say just the opposite.  If the guitar player is doing an
ascending run and the bass is doing a descending run, they get in
each other's way.  The bass should either double the guitar or not do
a run at all.

I agree with Barb here, with the exception that *on rare occasions*, a smartly done counter run (with precisely controlled timing) can sound cool

This is especially important when the guitarist is doing a syncopated
run.  If you can't double it, stay out of the way.
--

I take this to mean that unless you can do it with each other, note for note, with the same timing, don't mess it up. It just muddies up the run.

A couple of more observations:

• Don't bother if the guitar player plays with a heavy hand, and his runs are already loud.
• If the guitar player plays with a very light hand, your reinforcement can be helpful, as long as its done with exactly the same timing, etc. as noted above.
• See how the guitar player reacts to your runs. If s/he likes it, cool. If it irritates him/her, don't do it.
• Runs down, and runs up, are not interchangeable since they require different numbers of notes. Generally, the timing should work so that the target note (root of the chord) comes on the first beat of the next measure. Depending on the timing, you might have to add a half-step at the end of the run (if you need to delay your arrival at the next root note) or might have to drop one of the notes of the scale (if you need to get to the next root note more quickly). I can't think without my bass in my hands, but IIRC the downward run is easier and more natural to time if you are moving from I to V than running up. But if you are going from I to IV, then running up is easier and more natural to time.

I was in a jam in the Midwest decades ago, and after things were going pretty good for a while, one of the older guitar players said, to nobody in particular, "I don't know why I bother to play any runs, since the bass is playing them all." At the time, I took it as a compliment, but maybe it wasn't.

Bob in HI

[Hal Laurent]

Barb Diederich said:
>
> At 1:05 PM -0400 9/8/06, Hal Laurent wrote:
> >Make sure you listen to the guitar player. If he's playing an
> >ascending run, you shouldn't (to my ear) also be playing an
> ascending
> >run. In that situation I'd either do a descending run or no
> run at all.
>
> I would say just the opposite. If the guitar player is doing
> an ascending run and the bass is doing a descending run, they
> get in each other's way. The bass should either double the
> guitar or not do a run at all.

To each their own, I guess. I really hate the sound of the bass and guitar
both doing the same run. And ascending and descending runs together don't
necessarily have to clash, although it depends on the particulars of each.
Listening is important.

--
Hal Laurent
Baltimore

[Dennis Lee]

Listen to anything with Tom Gray if you are interested in playing
something a bit more creative, challanging and very tasteful.
Always the right notes in the right places with a complete ability to
honor the integrity of the overall sound of the song. Never brings
attention to himself but comes along side each player in an effort to
inhance what they are doing at any given time during a song. It is
always good to keep in mind what not to play as much as what to play.
He does both. And most importantly he honors the 'bluegrass sound' in
everything he plays. Distracting? - No. Inhancing? - Yes. He be da man.

dennis lee

[Keith Bowers]

>Hey Bob

Thank you very much for the offer and for the info
All basses are good basses right !?
We will be on Oahu 11-16 of Oct
Perhaps we can pick a few?

>
>Keith & Kristi,
>I am forwarding your query to Caroline Wright, founder and President of
>Bluegrass Hawaii (website http://bluegrasshawaii.com/).
>
>I live on Oahu and play bass; you could borrow my bass for a few occasions,
>unless you're persnickety about basses <G>. I suspect that there are
>certain persons on this list who would not play my bass even if marooned on
>a desert island with it (Its an Anton Schroetter, ca. 1975, with original
>plywood top). But when I bought it new in 1975 from Weaver's Violin Shop in
>Washington D.C., it was the best $300 investment I've ever made. There are
>a couple of other bluegrass bassists here on Oahu, and they probably have
>"better" basses.
>
>Aloha,
>Bob in HI
>Secretary, BGHawaii
>
>
>
>

--
****************************
Keith Allen Bowers
kabo...@whidbey.net
www.meerkerkgardens.org
****************************

[kipster]

ok, Sully asked me why i didnt post on this...so here goes

bass runs--wish i didnt do them. i make my mind up to not do any walk ups or
down, but halfway through the first mid-tempo song and im doing it again.
usually walk ups. but every time i do it, it clashes with the guitarist who
has decided he's going the other direction and i hate the way that sounds,
which is why i hate walk ups and walk downs.

in some songs, they are unavoidable. can you imagine Johnny Cash's 'Walk the
Line' without them? or 'Rebecca' by Herschel Sizemore? tough to leave them
out. but the minute you do one, the guitarist goes the other way. man, i
hate that!

if you are doing them constantly, i personally believe that constitutes poor
taste. im not a big fan of the George Shuffler school of walking all the
time. just too many notes, too busy. some people will disagree but no one
has ever told me to play more notes. in fact, Sully once saw me perform
'Louisville Breakdown' using TWO notes for the entire song. the I and the V.
thats it. after the song, Sully said something like, "Tough bass part!"
well, in a sense it was. paring a song down to 2 notes and then sticking to
that formula for 3 and 1/2 minutes is hard work! maybe i should look into
ritalin to help me focus?

kip

[kipster]

great post, josh. i agree on all of that. except this:

> However saying that there are many GREAT players who use runs all
> throughout the song and sound killer.

there are great players who have done this, but i dont personally like that
style. killer? YMMV.

there is a tradition of minimalist bassists out there--Jake Tulloch seems to
be the father of that school. noteable adherents include Barry Bales,
Marshall Wilborn, Mike Paisley, Mark Fain, Superman, Mike Anglin, Dennis
Crouch, Harold Nixon, Earl Yager, and Jason Moore. though not quite as
noteable, i am an adherent to this school, too.

kip

----- Original Message -----
From: "Josh Dayton" <u_jd...@umassd.edu>
To: <bgBa...@googlegroups.com>

[Josh Dayton]

Ok, bad phrasing on my part: Should been- use bass runs frequently
throughout the song. These are guys who sound killer-TOM GRAY, Mark
Schatz and Byron House. They are great players who sound great in the
context of their bands. (Seldom Scene, The Tony Rice Unit, and all
Byron's Stuff he's doing now. Did you hear him on the Kieth Sewell's
Shambles? That is amazing stuff.) There is no one in the world that can
convince me that there was any other player in the world suited better to
the original Scene than Tom Gray. So we can agree to disagree if you
want.

Anyway, you dont have to convert me to minamalist playing. I personally
get my kicks from stuff like good tone and pushing and pulling the beat
rather than runs. Anyhoo, for me minamalist stuff is the way to go 99% of
the time, but there is room for the other stuff. Later man.

Josh