Load Of Fun building visit.

[Adam Bachman]

I've put notes up at http://wiki.baltimorenode.org/index.php?title=LoadOfFun,
so I'll spare the details.

The following is infused with passion, please flame gently.

I say go for it.

My argument is brief, we should go for the cheapest, soonest available
space. This is that. The community we'd be joining fits us and we fit
them. Boom. Space problem solved. What's next?

Same argument, spread out over like 10 paragraphs:

* 10 members at $75 a month could support it easily.

* CANNOT BE BEAT for community and visibility. There is life in this
building. Like minded makers working, creating, sharing, ? and from
what I heard at our first meeting, that's what folks are looking for.
Right now our list is full of spaces that are standalone and/or in
shady parts of town. More than leasing into a building with a very
tolerant landlord, we'd be leasing into a community of artists and
creatives that have a history of acting at the fringes (just look at
the event calendar: http://www.loadoffun.net/LoadofFun/EventsCalendar.html)

* We are looking for a started space, the seed. This is a starter
space. This is not the be all, end all for the node. 16,000 square
feet and a pony farm is version infinity, we're on version 0. This is
how things start and grow. Shared vision + core community + first
space. This could be the node's first space and all it would require
is the core to support it.

* The building has a lot of shared event space. We would be leasing
700sq ft of anytime space, but getting 1000+ of as-needed space.
RobotRave could have a home here.

* VERY tolerant and understanding landlord who's willing to give us a
chance because he's excited about what we're doing. The dude is
already down and dirty with the artists, he knows the community and
sees potential. I can't conceive of a commercial landlord who would be
as down for what we're doing.

* It's available now. Not a few months, or when we have money, or when
we're sure. Sure it's a risk, but it's a risk we can take today
instead of six months from now. There will be a lot of fizzle six
months from now if we're spaceless for the intermediate.

I think this is kind of an inflection point for us. I can't act alone
so don't worry about me signing any leases, but if folks are with me,
I want to do it. This kind of opportunity won't come up often (or
maybe it will, I'm extremely impatient).

I'd suggest as a next step / course of action, we take no more than
five days to accept or reject this as a space. I didn't ask the
Sherwin for a hard date, perhaps that's something you could ask,
Kelly? I don't think we'll get more than that from him, anyways. Five
days, then we sign the lease or move on and don't look back. I'd
regret it, but I'm one of 20 / 50 / 130 depending on whether you count
meetings, mailing list, or twitter.

It'd be nice if we had 10 killer spaces on the table at once with
unlimited time to decide and collect membership dues. I don't think
we'll ever have that, not that I doubt peoples' interest in the node,
but that's not the way the world has ever worked for me. I think we
consider each space one at a time. WE CANNOT compare this space to
places we've never seen, or hackerspaces we look at online, or the
hackerspace/labs we dream about. Those are fantasies, idealized
wonderlands that don't exist.

We also CANNOT compare this space to where we'll be in a year or 10.
Those are the future. Organizations grow and move up, or fizzle and
fade. I don't care to speculate on where we'll be, because we're not
there. I hope we will grow into a 150 member, globally active tech/
arts community with a 20,000 foot warehouse and electronic equipment
museum and state of the art industrial laboratory, but that's out
there.

- - -

Ha :) I guess that's my piece, I really enjoyed taking the tour around
the building with folks today, sorry I missed the discussion
afterwards.

I'm looking forward to the workshop.


- Adam
http://adambachman.org
http://twitter.com/abachman

[Adam Bachman]

One more outburst then I'm done.

I'd clarify my "act now" message with this: if we're going to dither,
that's fine. Let's dither our brains out. Let's take a year and look
for the perfect location. Let's take a year to organize, incorporate,
apply for 501c3, sort out the bylaws, and all the rest.

In the meantime, if there are 9 people who are willing to join me for
a year, I'd like to move on this space and use it as the home base for
that process. $75 a month will cover it.

(also, velocipede, the charles theater, the hexagon space are all
within two blocks of Load of Fun ;)

http://velocipedebikeproject.org/
http://www.thecharles.com/
http://hexagonspace.com/


- Adam

On Jul 2, 8:29 pm, Adam Bachman <adam.bach...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I've put notes up athttp://wiki.baltimorenode.org/index.php?title=LoadOfFun,

[Avery Boyce]

I'm sorry I couldn't make it tonight.  If there's really nothing about this space that makes you hesitate - or anyone else hesitate? - then we probably can't find anything better suited in the short term.

I have a couple of questions.

1) How many people can the space comfortably hold at one time? (ie, if we were doing the ambient orb workshop there.  what if we were doing bigger projects?  what if we wind up with 10 sq ft of NASA donations?)

2) Does the landlord want a month to month lease? 

Here's my suggestion.  Let's move forward as if we're going to take the Load of Fun space and collect money, incorporate, open a bank account, do bylaws and get everything ready.  At the event on the 9th let's have open registration for membership.  I suggest calculating the open membership rate this way:

Rent + utilities + 20% (ie, $900)

___________________________________

# of people the space will comfortably hold

If the space holds 15 people comfortably, the rate would be $60/month.  If it holds 25 people, it would be $36.  If we get full registration at the first event then founder money can go towards startup fees, taking potential sponsors out for drinks :), or toys for the space.  If we don't get full registration, founder money will be needed to float the space until we do.  This way there is also a built in budget of $150/month for tools, events, advertising, etc... or cushion, depending on how you look at it.

Before the event we'll also need to figure out what being a member really means.  Do you just get a sticker?  Do you get to come in whenever you want?  Do you participate in meetings?  I have only skimmed the materials on how hackerspaces work, so I am coming from a relatively uninformed perspective here.  My apologies if this is all laid out already (it only just occurred to me that it might be..). If so, feel free to reply with a link and I'll smack myself and then go do some reading.

-Avery

[Jon Lesser]

So I the consensus following the meeting was that the 'Load of Fun'
place looked great, but that we would make a concerted effort to look
at other potential properties next week. If nothing comes up by July
12, then we take a last look at our finances and move on the Load of
Fun place.

I just put up the notes from the meeting with some decisions and action items:
http://wiki.baltimorenode.org/index.php?title=2009-07-02_Meeting_Notes

And I added a few things to Adam's excellent notes on Load of Fun
http://wiki.baltimorenode.org/index.php?title=LoadOfFun

On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 9:14 PM, Avery Boyce<avery...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 1) How many people can the space comfortably hold at one time? (ie, if we
> were doing the ambient orb workshop there.  what if we were doing bigger
> projects?  what if we wind up with 10 sq ft of NASA donations?)

It's about 700 square feet (we measured 18.5' by 36.75'). I'm really
sure, but I think 20-30 people at individual workspaces for a workshop
would be fine. For everyday working, I think 10-15 people could work
comfortably without feeling like they were right on top of each other.

> 2) Does the landlord want a month to month lease?

Lease would start August 1st and last for one year. After the year, it
will not automatically renew and instead becomes a month to month
agreement. Kelly will inquire about the possibility of a six month
lease, which may or may not automatically renew for another six months
before becoming month to month.

> Here's my suggestion.  Let's move forward as if we're going to take the Load
> of Fun space and collect money, incorporate, open a bank account, do bylaws
> and get everything ready.  At the event on the 9th let's have open
> registration for membership.  I suggest calculating the open membership rate
> this way:
> Rent + utilities + 20% (ie, $900)
> ___________________________________
> # of people the space will comfortably hold
> If the space holds 15 people comfortably, the rate would be $60/month.

This sounds quite reasonable to me. We have also tried to back into
the right monthly dues by taking a survey of what people would be
willing to pay. If you're on board for membership right away, add
yourself to the dues section of this page
http://wiki.baltimorenode.org/index.php?title=Mo_money...

> Before the event we'll also need to figure out what being a member really
> means.  Do you just get a sticker?  Do you get to come in whenever you want?
>  Do you participate in meetings?

I think we have been putting off this level of specifics so far, but I
agree we'll make a more compelling case to potential members if we
tell them what specific benefits come with membership. OTOH, it's hard
to make rules in the absence of a space and some initial membership to
vote on those rules. On yet another hand, we could define some general
benefits we intent and hope to provide. For example, a community of
members with diverse talents, or something slightly more tangible
like, 24/7 access for members. This is going to take a lot of
discussion, and I think it's been properly put off heretofore.

--
http://jonlesser.net

[Matthew Forr]

Adam,

From what I gathered after you left we're ready to really throw down
within the next week. That means I'll be taking the incorporation
papers down to the office on tuesday and expediting that process.

Once that is done we can be ready to collect dues, open bank accounts
and rent.

In the meantime to get that done the only thing we need consensus on
is a mission statement (sentence).

After seeing that place I'm happy to move forward on it; my only fear
is that it will be too small but that can be dealt with. Kelly will be
talking with Sherwin to see what we can work out.

Is that too slow?

-Matthew Forr

[Patrick Roanhouse - Plan8]

Adam,

We haven't even looked at any other places. We should look at least 3
other places next week and then decide also we need to sleep on it.

Regards,

Patrick

[Kelly Egan]

I think Patrick makes a wise point.

Lets do a full court press to see what else is out there in the next week. Once we have some reports from people on other locations we can make an informed decision.

I will talk to Sherwin about our concerns on the lease and report back.

Kelly

[Jon Lesser]

I will just throw out there that if anyone sets up an appointment to
see a place and wants some company, I have a very flexible schedule
right now and can almost certainly meet you at said property to take a
look. Or if the landlord can only meet at time you're unavailable, let
me know and I can probably show up.

-Jon

--
http://jonlesser.net

[Patrick Roanhouse - Plan8]

What are good times for you John? I can set up appointments tomorrow
then during the day if you want for next week on monday or wednesday.
Tuesday night I have the Baltimore/DC Javascript Meetup So that starts
at 7 and is in columbia. Anyone else free on Monday or Wed?

[Jon Lesser]

If I get to choose a time, I would say after 1pm, but really, any time
is easily workable. Tomorrow or next week are fine.

-Jon

--
http://jonlesser.net

[Adam D Bachman]

> So I the consensus following the meeting was that the 'Load of Fun'
> place looked great, but that we would make a concerted effort to look
> at other potential properties next week. If nothing comes up by July
> 12, then we take a last look at our finances and move on the Load of
> Fun place.

Nice, as I was walking out the door after writing my note I figured other folks would come to a similar conclusion. Just with more thought and consensus involved :) Specifically, we want to move on this, but should take enough time to consider other options, spam the heck out of our membership and PR connections, and sleep on it (I definitely agree with that) before jumping in with both feet.

BUT, we should not take too much time. We've been kind of nibbling at the edges of this thing for a month or two, lets set a hard limit and go.

I think I'd emphasize that considering space on a comfortable time scale would be much more comfortable if we were already in a space. This is small and within reach. In light of the size, we may have to cap full blown, key holding (are you the gatekeeper?), gold card, special hat on your birthday membership at 25 or so (if we could be so lucky), but for events we'd only be limited be the Load of Fun's total capacity.

I'm not trying to pick on anyone for dreaming big (Patrick and Matt specifically brought up the larger space idea tonight), I'm trying to keep myself in check. When I read about spaces like 3rd Ward and Tech Shop, the first thing I think is, "we could do that." But then I have to slap myself in the face because those guys have 15 people on staff and did a lot of market research before striking it big. We could get there, but not on this round. That's a lot of hustle and will go over smoother (as an all volunteer process) with a big long buffer.

I like the 12th as a go date. Are there any conditions that would change that? Say, every other space is way out of range, way worse, or Sherwin isn't willing to wait that long. Will it be possible to push that date forward?

Either way, while that process is happening, I'd like to start promoting the membership opportunity, but we probably need the cohesive membership statement available for folks to review.

- Adam

[Patrick Roanhouse - Plan8]

I really wish we could get at least 2000 Sqft because the space for HacDC is 900 Sqft and that is packed once you have the tables, the work benches, the storage and just people it only holds 8 people and anymore your gonna be standing. Also with things like crime and what we might store at the Load of Fun, as well as the power outlet concerns leaves me feeling very uneasy.

[Kelly Egan]

Speaking of HacDC, I know this isn't directly related to planning but they will be hosting DorkbotDC next Tuesday at their space. Good chance to meet our counterparts in DC, see there space.

http://dorkbot.org/dorkbotdc/

KellyAl

[Mark Huson]

I'm very hesitant to get a large space right now. Even if a 2,000 sq ft space was available at $.5 a sq ft that would still be $1000/month plus utilities. Having a large space would be great but we don't yet know what size of a group we will have and i know i don't want to be on the hook for an expensive space if we can't find the members to fill it. We can always grow if we need to after our lease is up and space in
Baltimore is always relatively cheap and available. Even too small a space is easy enough to work around. If we need to host workshops that are too large for which ever space we end up leasing we can move the workshop to MICA, the windup space, etc. and then have the leased space for the day to day tinkering. I know that would not be the ideal but it sounds to me like a good mix of bare bones start up costs and the potential for expandability.

[balduino]

Couldn't sleep last night. Some jots
I think we agreed that moving on a space now (now meaning within 10
days) would occur. The stars are aligning with the Node, and its
important to grab the momentum of the first event and move. This
should be a very exciting milestone.

On Loads of Fun
I think it is a great start space, where we would have fairly low
finacial risks, and I share Adam's enthusiasm. Sherman seemed very
supportive. Shared amenities and opportunities for relationships,
collaborations, and marketing of the group are great, and should
count beyond the seemingly small space. I have concerns about the
possibility of too much success, but I also want to move forward with
something. Maybe it would be good to look around for extra crappy
space strictly for storage nearby.
Kelly will, I'm sure, do a good job of sharing our lease concerns
while expressing enough enthusiasm to hold the space for 10 days. If
he cannot hold for 10 days, let's move at whatever time limit Kelly
comes back with.

Meanwhile, incorporation should take place. This means mission
statement finished (cant remember if deadline is Monday or Tuesday).
Mission statement is something to take seriously, and is not just
something for paperwork. It will be referred to, especially during
disputes. Let's really focus on this milestone over the weekend.
Please edit and discuss.

In the meantime, let's mad dash looking at other spaces in order to
properly vent all possibilities. Patrick, Avery, or whoever, I'm
available Monday through Friday after 5 pm.


With regard to incorporation, I think we owe money. Please post exact
bill, and preferred means of payment.

Steve Stowell
2900 Clear Hill Lane
Mount Airy, MD 21771

Cell: 240-994-1308

On Jul 3, 7:48 am, Patrick Roanhouse - Plan8

[Avery Boyce]

The lady responsible for showing 920 Cathedral is only available on the weekends and I imagine she's not too keen about working this weekend.  I'm available next Saturday or Sunday basically all day.  Anyone else want to come and has scheduling requests?

-Avery

[Steven Stowell]

How about Saturday at 10 AM?
-Steve

[cooter]

I am really concerned about this rush to incorporate and get a space
without taking the time to actually understand specifics of how to
implement and sustain this organization. We haven't figured out the
mission let alone how to implement it. This is a recipe for failure.
80% of first time startups fail. From what I have read, most people
fail because of bad implementation rather than a bad idea.

Given how quickly everyone want to startup. I would recommend stopping
the search for a space and create a business plan based on the 'Load
of Fun' space. While I don't think we need a formal 40 page business
plan, I do think we all need to understand specifics on the type of
information typically found in a business plan. Given the similar size
and closeness of HacDC, I would recommend everyone visit to see what
that size space is like. I would also recommend that one or two of us
contact them about their startup and ongoing implementation costs and
issues.

Starting small and bootstrapping works well for somethings, but it is
not feasible for every organization. I am concerned that the small
size limits us to a few electronic projects with limited growth
potential and high costs. I think there are better ways to start
something small like this, by sharing space with other organizations.

With regard to Techshop, WE CAN DO THAT! Techshop started with two
guys wanting to start a place where they could make things. Their
market research consisted of the two of them sitting at the Maker
Faire with a signup sheet indicating whom would be interested in using
such a facility. They did not even have enough money to start the
thing up. It was not until people on the list started offering to lend
them the money did they start the whole process to incorporate. They
utilized a lot of volunteers to get off the ground.

I see larger organizations like 3rd Ward and Techshop having the
ability to do just about anything. You can tie into the arts,
community development, economic development, and education communities
for money and resources to create this organization. I have little
doubt that we could get grants totaling several million dollars from
these communities. It would not surprise me that we could start up
such a place solely on non-monetary donations. The only downside is
that you can't start something like this up in the next week.

John

[Sepideh Miller]

On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 6:35 PM, cooter <jcuto...@gmail.com> wrote:

I am really concerned about this rush to incorporate and get a space
without taking the time to actually understand specifics of how to
implement and sustain this organization.

Sustaining organizations is very hard, and I think that is beyond the scope of
bringing an organization into existence.
 

We haven't figured out the
mission let alone how to implement it. This is a recipe for failure.
80% of first time startups fail. From what I have read, most people
fail because of bad implementation rather than a bad idea.

This is not a business so if we fail, a few people are out a couple hundred
dollars at most.
 

Given how quickly everyone want to startup. I would recommend stopping
the search for a space and create a business plan based on the 'Load
of Fun' space. While I don't think we need a formal 40 page business
plan, I do think we all need to understand specifics on the type of
information typically found in a business plan. Given the similar size
and closeness of HacDC, I would recommend everyone visit to see what
that size space is like. I would also recommend that one or two of us
contact them about their startup and ongoing implementation costs and
issues.

Having visited HacDC and having read this group, I would think that the people
here have more artistic bent whereas HacDC folk were generally very software
oriented.  I would love one of the HacDC people to come demonstrate how
to do the LED cube.

HacDC is a small room in a big church.  I think they may have had another
room that I did not see.  The space had a few tables and some shelves and a
sink.  They had taken down some insulation which made the space very loud
and difficult to work in when there were more than about 15 people there.  HacDC
members have keys to the space, but they have weekly events that are open to
the public.
 

Starting small and bootstrapping works well for somethings, but it is
not feasible for every organization. I am concerned that the small
size limits us to a few electronic projects with limited growth
potential and high costs. I think there are better ways to start
something small like this, by sharing space with other organizations.

Electronics components are small.  You really do not need a ton of
space to do electronics projects.  How much things cost depends
on if you have people who can contribute things or go to various
events where schools are selling off their old electronics to the public
or repair things that may need some love. 
 

With regard to Techshop, WE CAN DO THAT! Techshop started with two
guys wanting to start a place where they could make things. Their
market research consisted of the two of them sitting at the Maker
Faire with a signup sheet indicating whom would be interested in using
such a facility. They did not even have enough money to start the
thing up. It was not until people on the list started offering to lend
them the money did they start the whole process to incorporate. They
utilized a lot of volunteers to get off the ground.

We are not Techshop.  We are not in San Francisco.  We do not have the
start up capital to get the type of equipment Techshop has, and we don't have
the population density to make a profitable Techshop-like venture unless our
Techshop could get a liquor license.  And heavy machinery and liquor do not
mix well.  The liability insurance on that type of venture would potentially be
quite high.  Whether Techshop needed much started up capital to create their venture
is besides the point.  In Silly Valley, where there are a lot of people with too much
money, people throw out a lot of things before the end of the functional lives of
such items.  In Maryland, people get rid of baby clothes.

I see larger organizations like 3rd Ward and Techshop having the
ability to do just about anything. You can tie into the arts,
community development, economic development, and education communities
for money and resources to create this organization. I have little
doubt that we could get grants totaling several million dollars from
these communities. It would not surprise me that we could start up
such a place solely on non-monetary donations. The only downside is
that you can't start something like this up in the next week.

John

John, usually I tend to be the contrarian so I see where you are coming up, but
I don't see what you want to do as being something viable in this market due to
lack of sufficient local population with expendable income. 

What I do want to see hammered out is a set amount on dues.  HacDC charges
$50/month for members.  This includes your own key and the ability to use the
various wires and materials on hand.  There is also a list of things that were taken
from the space.  Some times people get really upset over what was removed from
the space and not returned. 

I am a little concerned about that space with the big windows because people
could potentially bust in and grab stuff if we kept something with much value
in there. 

 

[Adam D Bachman]

> Having visited HacDC and having read this group, I would think that the people
> here have more artistic bent whereas HacDC folk were generally very software 
> oriented.

Heh, I don't have much ambition beyond software. I'd be happy with a room full of workstations and projectors. 

> We do not have the start up capital to get the type of equipment Techshop 

> has, and we don't have the population density to make a profitable Techshop-like 

> venture unless our Techshop could get a liquor license.

The response from the landlord/building manager was something along the lines of, of course you can have beer at the party, what kind of party would it be without? We are explicitly prohibited from selling it, but we can sell tickets to events. There's already a precedent in the space for the $10 = show normal ticket and $15 = show + 2 drinks ticket.

But capital, yeah, don't really have that.

> I am a little concerned about that space with the big windows because people
> could potentially bust in and grab stuff if we kept something with much value 
> in there.  

I'd say that's more of a Baltimore city problem, than a "this space" problem. If you've got some high end 'ish up in it, and you're not coy about advertising it, 's probably gonna be stolen. Leave the desktop gene sequencers at the lab.

On the other hand, we're free to build as we like, with the requirement that whatever we put in the window is favorable for the building since that intersection sees 10's if not 100's of thousands of cars a day (did I mention high visibility). So if we wanted to build a one foot deep, ultra secure shadow box, that'd be fine. Once you start going there, though, you have to question walls with only drywall and insulation, ceilings that are only a few inches or less of wood, doors that we don't have all the keys to, etc. We can be phobic, but a different space won't change the risk by much.

> This is not a business so if we fail, a few people are out a couple hundred dollars at most.

Right. Plus, because it's not even really an organization except for in people's heads, it can't fail if folks don't forget. We're not trying to cure homelessness, or prevent all bad stuff, we're just trying to get into the same room with other geeks and some tools. 

On the money side, as long as there are no legal issues or huge unplanned, unavoidable expenses (shouldn't have got the 20,000 dollar deductible), I'm confident we could keep the space open for a year with only two or three sponsors. No way we could swing that if the burn rate was over $800 monthly (what I expect from rent + utils + insurance).

And that's really it. I'm all for the drawn out process of designing a business plan, scoping out the market, etc. I think that won't stop as long as our visions keep trying to jump out of our heads and into the real world. That's why we're here in this situation now today.

This movement that's happening, as I see it, is the acquisition of a multi-purpose lab and workshop space in which the extended work of organizing, funding acquisition, and relationship building can be done. The space we've been talking about is compact enough (size and $$) that it doesn't require a staff to maintain and a legion of subscribers to fund. Paid, key holding membership will be capped, but attendance will be virtually unlimited, because through the building and our continuing relationships with outside organizations, we will still have access to the same Baltimore we're in today.

If we do this and get 25 members right off the bat, sure that's 25 people who won't sign up for the big space in six months, but it's 25 people who *will* sign up for the big space in one year. That's the vision I have for this place and the organization one year out. When I'm talking startup mode, the balance sheet I have in mind is driven solely by memberships. No outside funding, no mentoring or sponsoring organizations (a la http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/The_Sponsoring_Anti-Pattern), no grants or donations. That's all icing that can support projects, equipment, and push the big-space timetable forwards. In order to work in that "ramen non-profitability" mode, we do need the most out of our space for the least amount of money, with the emphasis on least.

If, two months in, we manage to write the grant proposal that nets us a multi tens-of-thousands budget, then the work just gets easier. The longer we go without space--24 hour accessible, free-to-do-what-we-want, no-holds-barred, (mostly) unlimited noise and (mostly) unlimited tools usage space-- the harder it will be to write that grant, because momentum will be lost.

- - - -

I think there's still a lot of disconnect on what node is and is for. Right now it's blurry enough that we're all projecting our own desires on to it freely, and getting fired up when someone tries to take it another way. The mission statement building process (http://wiki.baltimorenode.org/index.php?title=Mission_Statement) will help with that some, and, I'd suggest, stepping back and watching it go down in flames if you're not down for the dirty work happening right now. This is what node is today. 

Like I said awhile back, this is an inflection point, and there will be pain. I hope (strangely) that the pain will be mostly financial; that we'll all get most of what we want, but the only thing it will cost us is money. That's unlikely, since we're starting to get emotionally invested.

From here, we keep pushing, we research more spaces, we type like mad on the wiki, and we try to inject our mental genome into the zygote that is node, so that someday, when the metaverse looks back on us and smiles, it'll know we did our best. (sorry for that last bit, I've got Snow Crash on the mind, bout time for a re-read, I guess)

- Adam

[Jon Lesser]

I agree that a more formal business plan would be great and helpful
for the group. http://wiki.baltimorenode.org/index.php?title=Business_Plan&action=edit

I see no reason why we shouldn't move ahead with incorporation. It's a
one-time cost and will be necessary regardless of the space we end up
with. The only reason to hold off would be if we wanted to go with a
for profit model, in which case our Articles on Incorporation would
need to changed dramatically.

The TechShop is a for profit enterprise. They have expanded to
Portland, OR and Duram, NC and are currently considering a franchising
model. If you are an investor with $25,000 or more, they are
interested in talking to you. I moved here from Berkeley two years ago
and having worked in and around startups there, I can attest to
difference in the investment environment between Baltimore and the Bay
area. I believe 3rd ward is also a for profit venture. I am not really
interesting in seeking investors and beginning a for profit venture
with y'all.

I would be interested in seeking grants, which I believe will flow
more easily after we receive 501(c)(3) destination letter, which
requires incorporation. I think it will be easier and more fun to grow
a small non profit into a large non profit than to wait around for a
year look for some angel investor willing to drop $50,000 on us.

-Jon

On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 6:56 PM, Sepideh Miller<bag...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>

--
http://jonlesser.net

[Alan Grover]

cooter wrote:
> I am really concerned about this rush to incorporate and get a space
> without taking the time to actually understand specifics of how to
> implement and sustain this organization. We haven't figured out the
> mission let alone how to implement it.

Except, we have, at several meetings.

Mission: space & stuff & people to do Make'r like things. Our members
want to build stuff.
Implementation: A small core funds/guarantees a space. Proven members
develop the space/stuff/marketing. Start with non-space events. Do
bigger, cooler stuff.

> This is a recipe for failure.
> 80% of first time startups fail. From what I have read, most people
> fail because of bad implementation rather than a bad idea.

Except, this is not a business. The Beehive is a great example of Just
Getting Started(tm). Dave Troy got strong interest from 40 people, and
we started it the next day. After an informal month or two of meeting in
coffee shops, he felt that there was enough of a base, and just arranged
a space.

> I see larger organizations like 3rd Ward and Techshop having the
> ability to do just about anything. You can tie into the arts,
> community development, economic development, and education communities
> for money and resources to create this organization. I have little
> doubt that we could get grants totaling several million dollars from
> these communities. It would not surprise me that we could start up
> such a place solely on non-monetary donations. The only downside is
> that you can't start something like this up in the next week.

Yes, you can. You already called it: start small and bootstrap. It's
pretty clear that we have the interest. I don't want to take months, and
create bureaucracy, to start big. WE CAN START TOMORROW.

Here's the risk:
Adam, and a small core, is stuck with the rent for a year.
We grow and don't have enough space.

--
Alan Grover
awgr...@mail.msen.com
+1.734.476.0969

(The "email signature" and/or digital-signature
are only for informational and integrity purposes
and does not constitute a legal signature)

[cooter]

On Jul 4, 1:17 pm, Alan Grover <awgro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> cooter wrote:
> > I am really concerned about this rush to incorporate and get a space
> > without taking the time to actually understand specifics of how to
> > implement and sustain this organization. We haven't figured out the
> > mission let alone how to implement it.
>
> Except, we have, at several meetings.
>
> Mission: space & stuff & people to do Make'r like things. Our members
> want to build stuff.
> Implementation: A small core funds/guarantees a space. Proven members
> develop the space/stuff/marketing. Start with non-space events. Do
> bigger, cooler stuff.

Except that the mission you list is actually a vision, the
implementation is actually a mission, and the implementation (how big
of a space, what types of tools, what type of events) has yet to
really be discussed.

>
> > This is a recipe for failure.
> > 80% of first time startups fail. From what I have read, most people
> > fail because of bad implementation rather than a bad idea.
>
> Except, this is not a business. The Beehive is a great example of Just
> Getting Started(tm). Dave Troy got strong interest from 40 people, and
> we started it the next day. After an informal month or two of meeting in
> coffee shops, he felt that there was enough of a base, and just arranged
> a space.
>

It will be a business once we file the paperwork with the state. I do
think we need to use this Just Getting Started(tm) methodology. All we
need now is to find a successful business person willing to fund 6
months and do most of the work to set it up. I don't think he just
started Beehive Baltimore without some type of planning process. I am
willing to bet one month's hackerspace dues that Dave Troy went
through some type of planning process to determine it's viability
before Beehive Baltimore was incorporated.

> > I see larger organizations like 3rd Ward and Techshop having the
> > ability to do just about anything. You can tie into the arts,
> > community development, economic development, and education communities
> > for money and resources to create this organization. I have little
> > doubt that we could get grants totaling several million dollars from
> > these communities. It would not surprise me that we could start up
> > such a place solely on non-monetary donations. The only downside is
> > that you can't start something like this up in the next week.
>
> Yes, you can. You already called it: start small and bootstrap. It's
> pretty clear that we have the interest. I don't want to take months, and
> create bureaucracy, to start big. WE CAN START TOMORROW.

I have no doubt that there is a lot of interest in a place where you
can make things. Starting small limits the types of things you can
make, which limits the number of people that will be interested.

Starting small with the Lots of Fun space requires more than $10,000
to sustain the organization for one year. This money gives us access
to approximately 700 sq ft of space. Adam is proposing to raise this
money by charging $40/month dues which requires a minimum of 25 people
to break even. Can you get 25 people to commit to paying $40/month for
a year given the limited amount of tooling that will fit into the
space? To figure out this question, we need to first figure out what
we are actually going to do with the space.

John

[Jon Lesser]

On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 4:43 AM, cooter<jcuto...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Starting small with the Lots of Fun space requires more than $10,000
> to sustain the organization for one year. This money gives us access
> to approximately 700 sq ft of space. Adam is proposing to raise this
> money by charging $40/month dues which requires a minimum of 25 people
> to break even. Can you get 25 people to commit to paying $40/month for
> a year given the limited amount of tooling that will fit into the
> space? To figure out this question, we need to first figure out what
> we are actually going to do with the space.

I think this could be a very fruitful vein of discussion. What's worth
$40, $50, or $75 a month to you? Some of us are willing to jump in not
knowing what specific tools are going to be available or how the
space, be it 700 or 7700 sq ft, is going to appropriated. All of us
are justifiably concerned about pledging money without being sure of
the benefits we'll receive. If there are specific resources or tools
you want the space to be able to accommodate, air that out to the
list. The thing I'd like to see accommodated would be an area to do
welding. The Load of Fun space has cement floors as well as a large
back alley and the enough amps in the power system.

The BeeHive model is really interesting in that they don't provide any
_things_ that people don't already have at home (chairs, couches,
desks, and wireless). All of the value is in the intangibles like
_going_ somewhere to work, being around like-spirited people, and
feeling part of a community. The Beehive costs $25 for just 1 day a
month ($275/month for 24/7 access). Granted, Beehive members are
theoretically making some money for themselves in the time they spend
there.

For me, I already have a basement with hand and power tools, a table
saw, miter saw and drill press. I have bins full of discreet
components, sensors and microprocessors. Baltimore and Craigslist are
full of surplus junk. What I don't have are the sort of intangibles
provided by the Beehive and could, to some significant degree, be
provided by the Node. I'm sure there will also be a few tools I don't
have, but the value for me is the people. If the space can't
accommodate a Bridgeport (or an exact Taiwanese replica like some list
members might not be using...), it's not a deal breaker.

If the group at large is primarily interested in a well equipped wood
and/or metal shop, the Load of Fun space would provide enough space
for that, but it's be a shop and not really a community space.

One note regarding event space and the Load of Fun building that might
not be clear for people who didn't go on the tour last week. There is
a gallery space (LOF/G) and a black box theater space (LOF/T) adjacent
to what would be the Node room. (See attached floor plan). Some events
(mixers!) could spill out into the gallery space. And the theater
space can be configured in several ways, includes a decent sound and
lighting system, and is available at a cost of 15% of any proceeds
generated from the event. There are lots of spaces in Baltimore to
hold events, I'm just throwing this out there.

-Jon

[Avery Boyce]

I think the analogy to the Beehive is a great one.  What I want more than anything is a place to come and be inspired by/learn from what other people are doing.  Having the 4 events a month we discussed before will add some great structure, built-in learning time and a way to reach out to new/potential members.  One other crucial element of the Beehive's success has been that someone is (almost) always there.  There might be room here for two tiers of membership.  The $75/month plan includes a key but you also have to commit to being in the space one evening a week from 6-9pm, or something.  Then we can say, there's a good shot that someone is in the space all the time, but if you want to come when someone else is around for sure, come Tuesdays and Thursdays between 6 and 9 (or whatever).  The $40/month people have to come when someone else is there, or if there's the option, get a building person to open the door for them. This would have the side benefit of limiting the number of keys floating around.  (Can we make as many keys as we want from Sherwin's perspective?)  

I might represent the least shop-oriented faction with my desires for the space, but here's what I want in terms of "stuff".  I want big tables with room to spread out.  I want the basics handy, like pliers and glue.  I would be happy to bring in things like pliers and glue and leave them for everyone to use if stuff didn't walk out of the building very often.  I think the supplies in the place could grow pretty organically and oriented towards the projects people want to do that way.  In my head this is like my elementary school art classroom, or the workshop on Project Runway, except we have bins of motors and LEDs instead of thread and paintbrushes.  Getting appropriate storage bins might be the most expensive part of filling the space.. no one ever seems to get rid of storage bins.  Good thing ikea is cheap!

FYI, $900/$75 = 12.  That might be as many key-memberships that are available. This might be distasteful to some of you, but limiting the number of key memberships has a powerful effect on desirability.  You will get more memberships, even at the $40 level, if you limit the opportunity to pay $75.  And having 12 people committed to being there regularly makes newbies feel more comfortable.  

Another note on the business side of things.  PayPal doesn't require a tax id or incorporation to create an account.  I assume we created an account for the 1st event, actually.  We can take membership dues that way - even set up auto-charge every month depending on what membership management tool we decide to use.  Cash flow is going to be so important for this thing and I'd hate to have to harass 25 people every month to send in their money.  

Potential mission statement:

Baltimore Node serves as the building block of a community that educates, affirms and promotes the role of making and inventing across the technology, art and sustainability fields.

Sustainability - trying to get those gardening ideas from the meeting at Red Emmas in there.  

Regarding startup costs:

We have $1700 in startup funds committed from 5 people.

Startup Costs ($220 - $1270) + $2400 in 3 months rent.

I have not fact checked these, I'm just taking from previous emails.

$220 - expedited incorporation papers

$300 - personal property tax to the state during incorporation and annually (is this applicable if our intention is to be a 501(c)?)

Will we need any sort of deposit for the Load of Fun space ($600?)?

We should probably budget $150 for lawyers, although hopefully we'll get some free legal advice

Most banks require a $100-$1000 initial deposit, which has to be maintained for 1-6 months.  This is moot if we actually have 3 months of rent socked away in advance.

I suggest we start also making a plan for approaching sponsors.  Our worst case scenario to meet both rent buffer and start up goals involves raising $2k after using committed member funds.  At a minimum we need to raise $1500 or so.  My suggestion is that we identify 5-7 highly aligned commercial businesses (where are we going to buy tools from?  who would want to advertise to our member base?) and ask them for $500 "founder" sponsorships.  That buys them at least 6 months of having a banner in the space saying something like "Baltimore Node made possible by Ace Hardware" or whatever.  This can include web-based businesses like who we bought the Arduinos from, although they would probably be tougher to approach than local ones.  Maybe we can offer a commitment to buy everything we need for events from them, like the workshop supplies.  

-Avery

ps - A friend of mine has table made from a sturdy metal frame and a plywood top that she's looking to get rid of.  I told her we'd probably take it.

pps - I'm going to send an email to 920 Cathedral lady about Saturday at 10am unless I hear different from you all in the next 8 hours.

[Sepideh Miller]

Avery, you are proposing punching the fat kid AND taking his lunch money with your $75/month plan.

I think a better alternative would be that the $75/mo people get keys and membership no questions asked, and the $40/month members have to volunteer in the space for having the benefit of discounted membership.

I don't know what the value of any membership is without a key.   Not having reasonable access to the space would mean that you do not have access to the stuff in the space making it totally useless. 

[Mark Huson]

Speaking of keys. Each key is "uncopyable" so there for costs extra to make. The current plan is to give certain people keys and to have scheduled hours, at least to start. There has been talk about the process for giving out keys as well. I know i am personally not comfortable with just giving any new member a key, i'm concerned about theft and/or vandalism. It would be a pretty good deal to pay $75 get a key and then have complete access to come in and take what ever you want. There has to be a certain level of trust before i'm comfortable giving out a key.

Now that being said i don't have any issue with giving keys to everyone that is trusted. I think if someone is trusted and they do want a key then the cost for the copy would fall to them.

In regards to the different membership classes i don't agree we should have different levels. A better solution to those who are unable to afford the full membership price could volunteer in someway to help cover the costs. I guess that sounds similar to what Avery was saying but I'm suggesting a flat membership price but then have the volunteer hours count towards the membership balance. I hope that makes sense, let me know if it doesn't. :)

-Mark

[Kelly Egan]

I agree with Mark keys should be about trust not money. Maybe after we operate for a while we can open the key pool but before we rush to make 25 copies lets establish how the space works. That said if we are going to succeed, the space need to be available as much as possible. Perhaps keys also requires you to be present/on call a certain percentage of the time. Keys entail responsibility.

[Kelly Egan]

Avery

I like you mission statement idea, you should post it to the wiki.

Kelly

On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 11:55 AM, Avery Boyce <avery...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Sepideh Miller]

What you are saying makes a lot of sense. These were issues that I was trying to think through.  The folks at HacDC said there is a fairly small core membership, and there are other people who churn through every few months or so when projects of interest come up.  Having fixed hours would definitely address the access issue.  And not wanting to just give a key to anyone without some sort of real commitment to the space makes sense. 

On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 12:58 PM, Mark Huson <meh...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Patrick Roanhouse - Plan8]

We can also make it so that the people who are those in charge of planning are the ones with keys and we set up a schedule for each day for someone to be there. We can also just do 3 days a week so that we can have multiple people promise to be there to cover it if no one person can't make it to open up and unlock.

[Jon Lesser]

Regarding new members and trust, I have tried to address this in the
bylaws thusly:

"Any qualified person may be elected to become a member at any regular
meeting. A qualified person must be elected by more than three
quarters (3/4ths) of members present at the meeting to become a
member. Existing members should consider the qualified person's
commitment, trustworthiness, capacity to contribute, willingness to
participate in the community, and any relevant risks before affirming
a qualified person with their vote. If a member is unable to assess
these considerations, they should make an effort to get the know the
qualified person so they can make a proper assessment. "
-- http://wiki.baltimorenode.org/index.php?title=Bylaws#Section_2:_Becoming_a_member

The idea is that new members don't become members just by paying, but
have to be accepted by the existing membership. If the new person has
no rapport with the group, they should be encouraged to get to know
people through events, public meetings, and just hanging out. This
language and process is similar to HacDC. At NYC Resistor, you need to
be invited by an existing member and the onus is on that member to
champion the potential member. I prefer the method currently outlined
in the bylaws as I think it's less likely to lean towards cronyism.

+1 for all members having keys if membership is by election as
outlined above. We will need to bootstrap initial membership and this
will take a small leap of faith that I'm willing to take.

Also, the bylaws are anything but fixed at this point, so please
review and debate them. If you want to leave comments inline, register
for the wiki and end your comments with four tildes (~~~~) so your
name will be recorded with a timestamp.

-Jon

--
http://jonlesser.net

[Avery Boyce]

Maybe I didn't explain my idea as eloquently as I could have, but the whole punching a fat kid and stealing from him.. um.. thanks.

By the way, I realize I've been in the business community exclusively for a long time and my language and concerns reflect that.  I'm not a one-dimensional corporate bringer of doom or anything though, I'm really excited to be part of something more community oriented. I'm happy to have my ideas modified or scaled back or thrown out as we make our way towards a common goal with the best chance of success.

About the keys.  Looks like everyone is on the same page about not everyone having a key automatically.  I think it makes sense that Responsibility + Commitment (hours or money or both) + Trust = Key.  It's great not having membership tiers except that you have to define how someone earns a key.  If it's just "the founders trust you" then it's a really murky system with potential for unintentional abuse.  I'm actually thrilled that you all think volunteering should count towards key privileges because I'm super enthusiastic but my budget isn't going to support $75/month.  

I would really urge you all to not make membership a popularity contest.  Even putting yourself out there for rejection by the current membership base is incredibly unappealing to....90% of people interested in this kind of hobby?  

-Avery

ps - what page is the mission statement going on?

[Kelly Egan]

I also might make the point that while we might not want to categories of members there should be some distinction between the legal term member and its operational use.
By making someone a member of the corporation they are entitled to legal rights outlines by our bylaws and more importantly, state law. These rights require that for instance we can only remove a member for cause (which requires some process) or for non-payment of dues. It might be useful to make some distinguishing characteristic between legal membership in the corporation and the ability to hold keys which should probably be more easily removed (for instance a member poses a safety concern)

I think we could place language in that leaves the decision up to the membership but makes membership decisions not about the personality of the person but our ability to access their commitment to the cause/mission of the organization.
To eliminate the popularity contest we have to instill a welcoming culture, as I doubt a legal procedures could prevent such a thing without become a free-for-all. I do wonder why particularly 3/4 of the membership as opposed to a simple majority? I don't really have an opinion on the exact percentage just wondering.

Mission statement page should link of the main page under founding documents.

[Kelly Egan]

Wow too many typos:

Here is a clearer version:

I also might make the point that while we might not want two categories of members, there should be some distinction between the legal term member and its operational use.
By making someone a member of the corporation they are entitled to legal rights outlined by our bylaws and more importantly, state law. These rights require that for instance we can only remove a member for cause (which requires some process) or for non-payment of dues. It might be useful to make some distinguishing characteristic between legal membership in the corporation and the ability to hold keys which should probably be more easily removed (for instance a member poses a safety concern)

As for removing the possibility of a popularity contents, an important concern, I think we could place language in that leaves the decision up to the membership, but makes the decision not about the personality of the person but our ability to access their commitment to the cause/mission of the organization.
Also to eliminate the popularity contest we have to instill a welcoming culture, as I doubt a legal procedures could prevent such a thing without become a free-for-all. I do wonder why particularly 3/4 of the membership as opposed to a simple majority? I don't really have an opinion on the exact percentage just wondering.

The mission statement page should link off the main page under founding documents.

http://wiki.baltimorenode.org/index.php?title=Mission_Statement

[Adam D Bachman]

> there should be some distinction between the legal term member and its operational use

I agree strongly with this.

Right now we're conflating membership with controlling interest in the business. The business is pure infrastructure support : http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/The_Infrastructure_Pattern . Membership is projects (blimp, etc.), events (scheduled classes, workshops, parties, and recurring jam sessions (e.g., Hive76's Pizza, Python and Processing : http://www.hive76.org/?p=6)), and other *usage* of the infrastructure.

Board of Directors and the organization's officers are the business side. Details and administrivia, signing checks, and the like (roles to be determined through adoption of bylaws).

> the possibility of a popularity contest... a welcoming culture

It's interesting to flip through other hackerspace membership policies. No two are the same, and they range from pure invitation only (NYCResistor) to start paying dues and show up to collect your key (Pumping Station One). Here's a list of the one's I'm looking at:

* http://www.nycresistor.com/participate/

* http://blog.cowtowncomputercongress.org/membership/

* https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/Noisebridge_Membership (application: https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/Image:Noisebridgemembership.pdf)

* http://hacklab.to/membership/

* http://pumpingstationone.org/blog/members.html

Of all of these, I think my favorite is Noisebridge, with an application and a one month review period. Initially, we'll all have to be reviewing each other, I suppose, but beyond that, the 30 days + application (with it's associated fields filled in) method sets boundaries on how harsh the process could end up.

Noisbridge is also big on the "starving hacker" rate. It's not cool to call people out and make a big deal of it, but if we have a private channel for fee negotiation (fin...@baltimorenode.org or something) and codified review process, then it could work. Conditions on the "starving hacker" or "student" rate shouldn't be patronizing, but it should probably only be a short term arrangement. Say four months and then review, only reserve five membership slots for the starving hacker rate, and full-paying members can bump SHR members on the waiting list (oh I hope we have a waiting list); something like that.

I also think key holding should be a guaranteed priviledge of full membership. Perhaps full membership would kick in after one month of dues, application review, and a vote by current membership ("exploratory membership => full membership"), but I don't think I'd be able to work within any sort of hours requirement condition on key holding. We might decide that's a good way to run the first month, but five months from now, every member should have a key.

Avery, you asked about Sherwin's position on key distribution (physical). As I understood it during our time talking with him, we can make as many copies of our street access door key as we want. Those are non-duplicatible keys, so we'll still have to ask his permission for each one. The keys to the main LoF door are limited, but access from inside the space to the bathrooms and the rest of the building will still be possible. The gist: we can make as many copies as we want, but LoF gives permission and keeps track, too. It will be important to get that permission in the lease, but verbally, we should be fine for a 1 member = 1 key policy.


- Adam

[Jon Lesser]

On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 11:55 AM, Avery Boyce<avery...@gmail.com> wrote:

> pps - I'm going to send an email to 920 Cathedral lady about Saturday at
> 10am unless I hear different from you all in the next 8 hours.

Is this scheduled now? If so, I'll add it to the calendar.

-Jon

--
http://jonlesser.net

[Avery Boyce]

Mandy hadn't replied to email.  I just gave her a call.  She reiterated that the space is in rough shape.  I tried to figure out whether it needed skilled labor or just elbow grease and she was like well, everything works, but you would need a plumber to put in new fixtures so I think it's just really, really dirty.  She would not be willing to go lower than $1500/month, but it would be a month to month lease.  She is coming to Baltimore twice next week and so is reluctant to come this weekend.. I'll be out of town next week for a wedding, but I told her there are several people who could come see it during the week if we're interested.  I figure we'll have a much better idea of how many members we'll actually have after tonight.  Just to do the math, $1500 + $300/utilities requires 36 members paying $50/month, but this space would be enormous.  If we shared with Velocipede we could get it down into a reasonable rate probably.  

I told her I'd call her tomorrow to tell her whether we want to see the space and who her contact person would be for scheduling something.  

See you all at 7!

Avery