Too close call, with a possible lesson
Mike Jacoubowsky
of us heading in the "downhill" direction on Kings Mtn Road, preparing
to make the left turn onto Manuella. We had signaled our intentions and
it really couldn't be much more clear what we were doing. Nevertheless,
a black sedan overtook us, without warning, driving entirely in the
oncoming traffic lane, and passed us exactly at Manuella. If somebody
hadn't yelled out "DON'T TURN!!!" one of our guys, Karl, would quite
possibly have been road-kill this morning. We had already said "car
back" shortly before, so people knew at that point that we should be
taking the lane and signaling to make our intention clear. I've been
riding these same roads for literally 40+ years now and I have never,
ever seen something like this before.
The interesting thing here is that somebody in our group (Billy) was
thinking quickly enough to yell "DON'T TURN" instead of a
more-instinctive "car" or whatever. Karl had likely assumed that he was
safe to turn, being at the front of a large group, and had no idea
whatsoever that a car would pass in such a dangerous fashion. Not
dangerous, but absolutely positively deadly.
No, we didn't get a license plate; the car was easily doing 35 and we
were probably doing 10 as we prepared to make the left-hand turn. It was
so unreal that nobody even thought to chase her down anyway; it's
possible someone could have caught up to her at the Kings/84
intersection.
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
Ben Pfaff
> On our regular Tuesday/Thursday ride this morning, there were about 10
> of us heading in the "downhill" direction on Kings Mtn Road, preparing
> to make the left turn onto Manuella. We had signaled our intentions and
> it really couldn't be much more clear what we were doing. Nevertheless,
> a black sedan overtook us, without warning, driving entirely in the
> oncoming traffic lane, and passed us exactly at Manuella.
I'm glad to hear that no one was hurt.
This is another example of a stupid, careless driver. Every day
on my commute, I turn left from West Bayshore (in Palo Alto CA)
onto Loma Verde. This turn is immediately preceded by a series
of signs that say: SLOW, CONSTRUCTION ZONE, TRUCK CROSSING, BIKE
LANE, WATCH FOR PEDS, SHARE THE ROAD. And, still, even though I
am in the middle of the lane and signaling a left turn, I
regularly get cars blowing by me on the left. They are reckless
enough that I look behind me before I extend my hand to the left
because I don't want a vehicle taking my arm off!
--
"I admire him, I frankly confess it; and when his time comes
I shall buy a piece of the rope for a keepsake."
--Mark Twain
Sandlin
Reply:
I'm glad no one got hurt or likely road-killed. But, I'm glad
this was posted because I was beginning to think that I was the only
one who chronically has to cope with drivers blowing by me on the left
when I'm in the left lane, signally a left turn, and the idiots blow
right by me, on the left, sometimes moving into the oncoming traffic
lane! Duh! Or, they'll pass on my right, and turn left right in
front of me as I'm trying to get to the far, right side of the road,
out of their way. Why is it that they don't can't spare the two or
three seconds it takes for us to move ahead (just as a car would) and
make our turn (just like a car)? Two or three lost seconds is going
to irretrievably alter their life course?
I used to think that about 10% of the drivers on the road should
never have been given a license to drive, but now I'm thinking that
the percentage is closer to 40% who shouldn't be granted the privilege
of driving.
JMHO. Lansing, MI -- Armpit of the cycling universe.
Big Jim
near accidents do we get into in our cars- people texting, talking,
drunk etc
Mike Jacoubowsky
"Big Jim" <bigji...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:a466717d-9121-4d68...@r33g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
Glad to hear everyone is ok but a near miss doesnt count. How many
near accidents do we get into in our cars- people texting, talking,
drunk etc
The point wasn't that it was a "near miss." The point is that it was an
unusual action by somebody in our group that may have prevented
something very, very bad. We tend to think of a "near miss" as either a
random circumstance or something beyond our ability to deal with. This
was something that was very effectively dealt with. Something others
might learn from.
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
"Big Jim" <bigji...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:a466717d-9121-4d68...@r33g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
Camilo
wrote:
> ========="Big Jim" <bigjimp...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:a466717d-9121-4d68...@r33g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
> Glad to hear everyone is ok but a near miss doesnt count. How many
> near accidents do we get into in our cars- people texting, talking,
> drunk etc
> =========
>
> The point wasn't that it was a "near miss." The point is that it was an
> unusual action by somebody in our group that may have prevented
> something very, very bad. We tend to think of a "near miss" as either a
> random circumstance or something beyond our ability to deal with. This
> was something that was very effectively dealt with. Something others
> might learn from.
>
> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReactionBicycles.com
>
Mike, don't take this as being an apologist for the driver, but I'm
curious about a couple more factors.
It seems clear that this did not involve a left turn lane - correct?
Were the riders at the rear of the pack actively signalling a left
turn when the driver overtook?
The only reason I ask this is to understand the situation, not to make
excuses for the driver. But, I COULD envision a situation where the
riders were taking the lane to make the turn, but there was not an
actual left turn lane involved. The riders signalled the left turn,
but as they began to actually brake to slow down, nobody was
signalling any longer (which is perfectly legal of course - you can't
signal and use hand brakes at the same time).
The driver approaches and either didn't see the hand signal (no excuse
for that - driver simply WRONG).... or approached after the signal had
been given, but was no longer being given due to the braking/slowing
and the need for riders to keep both hands on the bars.
Driver then thinks it is simply a pack of riders riding slowly in the
lane (which is perfectly legal of course), but does not realize they
were about to make a left turn. He/she moves completely into the
oncoming lane to make what he/she thinks is a safe, appropriate pass,
just as he/she would do if overtaking a slow moving vehicle that is
not showing a turn signal.
Again, I'm NOT attempting to challenge the rider's actions, but just
envisioning a situation where an honest miscommunication between the
riders' intentions and the driver's intentions almost ended up in a
horrible accident.
I am very very glad that the riders toward the back of the pack were
experienced enough NOT TO ASSUME anything and to check again and see
the driver making the unsafe pass. That is exactly the right way to
ride and what separates experienced road riders from inexperienced
ones - the assumption that "if anything CAN go wrong, it will."
Camilo
Oh, another point I intended to make as a takeaway from your
experience - for those that aren't used to riding in a paceline or
pack in traffic, it is very important for one or two people at the
rear to back to take responsibility for making sure (as sure as is
possible) that overtaking drivers are aware of the upcoming turn. They
need to think ahead and back off a little so that they can maintain a
safe distance from the rest of the pack so they can keep that hand
signal out there as long as possible, at least to the point where
people up front begin the turn if at all possible. The also need to do
what riders in this pack did - make sure the overtaking drivers don't
make any boneheaded moves like this one. One deficiency in hand
signals in traffic is that it is often very difficult or impossible to
maintain the signal as you're actually braking and beginning your
turn, especially in a pack where you have other riders' slowing to
deal with.
Tom Kunich
news:d7657e46-f791-44f5...@d7g2000prl.googlegroups.com...
All of your advice is sound but Mike and his pals are very experienced
riders and know what they're doing. If he says that it was a close call
that's what it was. I know that my brother was riding along Skyline, looked
back near a high spot in the road and then started to make a u-turn and a
couple of motorcycles came up WELL over the speed limit. One of them went
down pretty hard though luckily he missed my brother by an inch.
Skyline intermittently becomes very dangerous and has a series of very bad
crashes which scares the idiots for a short while and then the ride is safe.
Then since idiots can't remember danger for any period of time they shortly
are back to their old ways of using Skyline as a road racing route for high
speed motorcycles and sports cars.
I've finally tried to stay off of there as much as possible except where
there's usually a lot of traffic which tends to slow down the idiots though
you still see them passing over a double yellow line around blind turns.
Bill Bushnell
> He/she moves completely into the
> oncoming lane to make what he/she thinks is a safe, appropriate pass,
> just as he/she would do if overtaking a slow moving vehicle that is
> not showing a turn signal.
This might be a reasonable assumption were it not for several conditions that
preclude safe passing in the manner described on this stretch of road.
This section of road has connecting driveways on both sides, is striped with a
double yellow line, and, as Mike said, the group was preparing to turn left onto a
connecting road (Manuella). Nowhere is it legal to pass on the opposite side of
a road through an intersection. The intersection with Manuella is especially
dangerous because visibility for traffic coming from Manuella is blocked by large
trees.
I don't know where Mike has been all these years, but I see this kind of rude,
headstrong and illegal driving, both as a driver and as a cyclist, more frequently
in and around Woodside.
--
Bill Bushnell
http://pobox.com/~bushnell/
Tom Kunich
news:4a5276f0$0$1592$742e...@news.sonic.net...
>
> I don't know where Mike has been all these years, but I see this kind of
> rude,
> headstrong and illegal driving, both as a driver and as a cyclist, more
> frequently
> in and around Woodside.
I have been run off the road or threatened by motorists going by one way or
the other more times in Woodside than in all of the rest of my riding put
together.
I was pushed off of the road by a Highway Patrolman in Woodside on Sandhill
Rd. on one occasion for no apparent reason. When he realized what he'd done
he took off before I could ID his car.
Frank Krygowski
> In ba.bicycles Camilo <campasc...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > He/she moves completely into the
> > oncoming lane to make what he/she thinks is a safe, appropriate pass,
> > just as he/she would do if overtaking a slow moving vehicle that is
> > not showing a turn signal.
>
> This might be a reasonable assumption were it not for several conditions that
> preclude safe passing in the manner described on this stretch of road.
>
> This section of road has connecting driveways on both sides, is striped with a
> double yellow line, and, as Mike said, the group was preparing to turn left onto a
> connecting road (Manuella). Nowhere is it legal to pass on the opposite side of
> a road through an intersection.
True.
On one of our club rides, a motorist tried to pull the same trick,
obviously illegal, but at much lower speed. The group of cyclists was
waiting for oncoming traffic to clear on a two-lane road, with plenty
of arms out signalling the obvious turn. As soon as the traffic
cleared, a motorist tried to bully his way through in the opposing
lane. But enough cyclists had started the turn, and he was blocked as
he sat in the left (i.e. opposing) lane.
And as it happened, one gutsy young lady among us gave him a withering
lecture for his stupidity. It was kind of fun to watch.
If there are lessons here, one is to always double check before
leaving your line or your lane. Another is that mirrors can be
helpful.
- Frank Krygowski
Mike Jacoubowsky
Bill: Maybe it's all just crept up so gradually over the years that I've
been like the frog put in a kettle of warm water that's very slowly brought
up to a boil and never realizes it's time to get out until too late. But
overall I really haven't had too many issues with cars over the years. Guess
I've been lucky. And perhaps some of it is because some of the worst stuff I
see is when I'm driving, so when I'm on a bike it usually isn't going to
take me by surprise.
Yes, those trees and foliage on Manuella do make it interesting. Fortunately
the coverage isn't complete so you can usually tell if there are cars or
bikes coming at you. Pedestrians are a harder read, and it's pedestrians
that I'm most concerned about not running into, especially there where you
have a few older folk we see on a regular basis.
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Peter Cole
> The interesting thing here is that somebody in our group (Billy) was
> thinking quickly enough to yell "DON'T TURN" instead of a
> more-instinctive "car" or whatever. Karl had likely assumed that he was
> safe to turn, being at the front of a large group, and had no idea
> whatsoever that a car would pass in such a dangerous fashion. Not
> dangerous, but absolutely positively deadly.
Brings up the interesting point of when & what to call out on group
rides. There's the obvious annoyance of "car back" every time a car
passes. Then there's the debate (at least here) if riders in an
intersection should call "clear" for the trailing riders.
I've been caught off guard a few times by a situation like yours,
wondering what to yell.
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
For this and other bicycling reasons, I avoid group rides these days,
because many riders make what I find are misplaced assumptions about
group responsibility. On rides with others, I prefer to ride as
though each of us were on self reliant solo rides and not thinking or
acting for the others. As you say, when and what should one call out.
This style of riding has worked well in the past and still does with
riders who have not lived a sheltered life at the end of their
parent's leashes. I use that characterization because many of these
riders do this visibly with their offspring, rarely allowing them to
learn to ride without training wheels while hovering over them to
protect them from myriad imagined dangers.
Beyond that, the John Forester disciples of "take the lane" folks
cause animosity between my bicycle ride and cars. Riding on local
mountain roads with no shoulder become a war zone with riders who
insist on riding into the traffic lane at least a yard from the edge
stripe, not realizing that this is an affront to passing traffic. The
cover of his book has a bicyclist conspicuously riding in the center
of the traffic lane, although one might imagine he is descending at
auto traffic speed, but not a good image for a book on bicycle safety:
Because this is so prevalent, road signs on our mountain roads don't
just state "Share the Road", but rather "Bicycles - Share the Road",
an effect brought to us by "take the lane" folks. For motor traffic
we have "Slower Traffic use Turnouts" signs... and they do.
Jobst Brandt
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
For this and other bicycling reasons, I avoid group rides these days,
Jay Beattie
I thought there were similarly punitive signs on Sauvie Island (north
of downtown PDX), but I guess not. http://www.flickr.com/photos/benmcleod/2667188860/
This is on the way homw, and is an invitation to disaster at the wrong
time of day. http://www.flickr.com/photos/turkeybot/3419172178/
Another classic -- note to cyclists, you are going to die:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/fwickafwee/2626133775/ -- Jay Beattie.
Bill Sornson
> Another classic -- note to cyclists, you are going to die:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/fwickafwee/2626133775/
My new wallpaper for the day!
Mike Jacoubowsky
news:4a53d4f3$0$1665$742e...@news.sonic.net...
> Peter Cole wrote:
>
>>> The interesting thing here is that somebody in our group (Billy)
>>> was thinking quickly enough to yell "DON'T TURN" instead of a
>>> more-instinctive "car" or whatever. Karl had likely assumed that
>>> he was safe to turn, being at the front of a large group, and had
>>> no idea whatsoever that a car would pass in such a dangerous
>>> fashion. Not dangerous, but absolutely positively deadly.
>
>> Brings up the interesting point of when & what to call out on group
>> rides. There's the obvious annoyance of "car back" every time a car
>> passes. Then there's the debate (at least here) if riders in an
>> intersection should call "clear" for the trailing riders.
>
>> I've been caught off guard a few times by a situation like yours,
>> wondering what to yell.
>
> For this and other bicycling reasons, I avoid group rides these days,
> because many riders make what I find are misplaced assumptions about
> group responsibility. On rides with others, I prefer to ride as
> though each of us were on self reliant solo rides and not thinking or
> acting for the others. As you say, when and what should one call out.
>
> This style of riding has worked well in the past and still does with
> riders who have not lived a sheltered life at the end of their
> parent's leashes. I use that characterization because many of these
> riders do this visibly with their offspring, rarely allowing them to
> learn to ride without training wheels while hovering over them to
> protect them from myriad imagined dangers.
This has nothing to do with people living "sheltered lives" and being
dependent upon others. It has a lot to do with making sure people get by,
that they're not run over, etc. I suppose you don't call out potholes these
days either, because a rider should be able to spot them on their own and
act appropriately?
I'm not my brother's keeper, but that doesn't mean I can't act as if there's
a social community in which people can help each other out.
Is it also rude to ask somebody by the side of the road if they need
anything? Or is cycling supposed to be some sort of zen
shared-yet-not-shared experience, maybe where you don't talk with anybody
during the ride but get together later to compare notes?
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
<jobst....@stanfordalumni.org> wrote in message
news:4a53d4f3$0$1665$742e...@news.sonic.net...
Frank Krygowski
> Beyond that, the John Forester disciples of "take the lane" folks
> cause animosity between my bicycle ride and cars. Riding on local
> mountain roads with no shoulder become a war zone with riders
> stripe, not realizing that this is an affront to passing traffic.
So Jobst, what do you do when you've got (say) an eight foot wide lane
on a two lane road, and no shoulder?
Me, I ride in the traffic lane. After all, it's not a "motor vehicle
lane," it's a traffic lane. I'm legal road traffic, and I'm not
required to endanger myself unreasonably by facilitating close passes
in narrow lanes.
> Because this is so prevalent, road signs on our mountain roads don't
> just state "Share the Road", but rather "Bicycles - Share the Road"..
Got a photo? Sounds non-MUTCD to me.
BTW. my state (like many) has specifically listed situations in which
cyclists are allowed to take the lane. A lane too narrow to safely
share is one of those situations.
- Frank Krygowski
Kerry Montgomery
"Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com> wrote in message
news:T82dneyKN6CrgcnX...@earthlink.com...
Well, I remember one posting from Jay Beattie where he sounded a little
annoyed by all the people who'd asked him if he needed help for one
incident. I'd still ask him, though, even if I recognized him!
Kerry
<rest of earlier messages snipped>
Bill Sornson
Didn't Jobst whine about riders not waving at him? Maybe we know why now.
BS
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
If you are at the head of a line of riders, it is incumbent upon you
to not barely miss a pot hole or ride between shards of glass, none of
which are apparent to following riders. Just waving you left hand in
the "in fashion" does not absolve you of giving hazardous obstacles a
wide berth so others can see and avoid them.
> I'm not my brother's keeper, but that doesn't mean I can't act as if
> there's a social community in which people can help each other out.
The point is whether "your brother" is aware that you are not his
keeper. I find that many riders see neither end of that stick.
> Is it also rude to ask somebody by the side of the road if they need
> anything? Or is cycling supposed to be some sort of zen
> shared-yet-not-shared experience, maybe where you don't talk with
> anybody during the ride but get together later to compare notes?
I suppose you missed that I give a personal greeting to riders and
hikers I meet along my rides. In that respect, it offers persons
standing next to the road to mention that they need help. To
interrupt a person engrossed in tire repair or hardware adjustment
with a question "Do you need help" is both an intrusion and a
condescending slur, implying that the person is incapable of asking.
Of course when you and I were "young and beautiful", riding with the
local racing types, all of this seemed natural, because we all knew
what it was about. Being on tubulars we each carried only one spare
and were prepared to loan it to a fellow rider. I have pictures of
those rides and you were in their midst, be that to Big Basin, Santa
Cruz, Loma Prieta, or Mt. Hamilton, etc.
Jobst Brandt
Tom Keats
"Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com> writes:
> Is it also rude to ask somebody by the side of the road if they need
> anything? Or is cycling supposed to be some sort of zen
> shared-yet-not-shared experience, maybe where you don't talk with anybody
> during the ride but get together later to compare notes?
I'm inclined to take a bike lying on its side on the ground
as more of a sign of distress, than a nicely propped-up bike
near its rider who is sitting on a street furniture bench while
sipping a double-shot Americaino and doing the newspaper
crossword puzzle. I've been in that latter situation a number
of times myself. And while I appreciate people's concern, it
gets to be socially awkward, having to wave-on so many
Good Samaritans, some of whom I suspect just really wanna
show off or finally find a use for their handy-dandy
Park multi-tool.
So I'd say it's not rude, but it's also not always worthy
of an open-arms welcome either.
If you really need roadside assistance, lie your bike
flat down on the ground and wear a desperate, consternated
look on your face. And hope you don't get robbed.
cheers,
Tom
--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca
Jay Beattie
> "Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com> wrote in message
>
> news:T82dneyKN6CrgcnX...@earthlink.com...
>
>
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Someone reads my posts? I think I was just countering a claim that
lycra-clad cyclists were unfriendly, although I was probably feigning
annoyance at the sheer volume of concerned lycra-clad cyclists who
passed while I was fixing a flat in front of the pet cemetary on
Skyline. I started to feel like a WallMart greeter.
I have decided that I am annoyed by people who draft me without a
greeting or little racer dudes who sit on my wheel going up hill and
then jump around in the last ten feet. If you're so godamn good, you
should be a spot on the horizon and not sitting on the wheel of some
big old guy with harware in his leg. -- Jay Beattie.
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>> Beyond that, the John Forester disciples of "take the lane" folks
>> cause animosity between my bicycle ride and cars. Riding on local
>> mountain roads with no shoulder become a war zone with riders
>> insist on riding into the traffic lane at least a yard from the
>> edge stripe, not realizing that this is an affront to passing
>> traffic.
> So Jobst, what do you do when you've got (say) an eight foot wide
> lane on a two lane road, and no shoulder?
That occurs on Mt. Hamilton where the road has a double yellow line and
dual Botts dots on a section between a cliff and a wall, both lanes
together, not more than ten feet wide. I ride as close to the edge
as practical in the event there 9is oncoming traffic in that long
curve. If there is a car behind me, it is his prerogative to decide
when to pass, not mine by visibly blocking.
> Me, I ride in the traffic lane. After all, it's not a "motor
> vehicle lane," it's a traffic lane. I'm legal road traffic, and I'm
> not required to endanger myself unreasonably by facilitating close
> passes in narrow lanes.
I see you are a believer in "take the lane". If an equestrian were to
do that in front of your car, I think you might have a different
perspective. Whether passing in such a place is reasonable is up to
the person passing, not the person blocking the passage.
>> Because this is so prevalent, road signs on our mountain roads don't
>> just state "Share the Road", but rather "Bicycles - Share the Road"..
> Got a photo? Sounds non-MUTCD to me.
I didn't thin you would accuse me of lying but you just did.
Let me say it once more:
We have road signs in the Santa Cruz mountains stating "Bicycles -
Share the Road".
> BTW. my state (like many) has specifically listed situations in
> which cyclists are allowed to take the lane. A lane too narrow to
> safely share is one of those situations.
How are they "specifically listed" to take the lane? I ride through
Niles Canyon (CA HWY84) and Santa Cruz to Felton (CA HWY9) where there
is no road beyond the lane edge stripe, both roads having plenty of
car and truck traffic, and I have no problem on regular rides there.
In contrast, the "take the lane" types tell me they find those roads
too dangerous to ride, which I can understand because they pick a
fight with semi-trailer-trucks, commuters, and locals, by telling them
when to drive and not to drive faster than their bicycles. These same
people also slice other bicyclists with their car on such roads to
demonstrate how unsafe it is. I have overheard such people recount
such events that they created as a lesson. If I believe it's too
dangerous, then I'll show that smart-ass why, is the scenario.
I find this a classic of people who cannot see things from the other
person's perspective. When in their cars, all bicyclists are jerks,
and when on their bicycles, all motor vehicle operators are jerks.
"Take the lane" bicycling is that perception.
Jobst Brandt
Doug Faunt N6TQS +1-510-655-8604
>
> We have road signs in the Santa Cruz mountains stating "Bicycles -
> Share the Road".
>
Yes, and I read that sign as saying "There are likely to be bicycles
here- share the road with them" addressed to motor vehicle operators.
In those same mountains, I did see a bicyclist blow through a
temporary single lane area, due to road work, against the temporary
red traffic light, and thought I was about to see a death, but the
motorist coming up hill did manage to get over far enough to avoid
splattering the cyclist. But it was a very close thing.
73, doug
Mike Jacoubowsky
news:pc813h...@news.eternal-september.org...
The flip side of this coin was on Canada Road maybe 5 years ago, when I
came across a guy looking a bit dazed with blood on his forehead.
Amazingly, I saw *many* riders (it was a beautiful Sunday, so the road
was full of cyclists) ride right past him. As well as two joggers. I
stopped and the guy was seriously out of it. He'd crashed but had no
memory of what had happened. I called 911 on my cell phone and later
found out he'd had a concussion and spent some time at the hospital, but
came out OK in the end.
How in the world would so many people ride past someone like that???
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
"Tom Keats" <tkeat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:pc813h...@news.eternal-september.org...
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>> We have road signs in the Santa Cruz mountains stating "Bicycles -
>> Share the Road".
> Yes, and I read that sign as saying "There are likely to be bicycles
> here- share the road with them" addressed to motor vehicle
> operators.
It takes a biased perspective to see that sign in that interpretation.
When do we see passing cars not share the road? Cars don't have a
"Take the lane" road blocking maneuver that would deny bicyclists use
of roads, but there are bixcyclists intent on blocking cars from
traveling even at low speeds past their bicycling.
> In those same mountains, I did see a bicyclist blow through a
> temporary single lane area, due to road work, against the temporary
> red traffic light, and thought I was about to see a death, but the
> motorist coming up hill did manage to get over far enough to avoid
> splattering the cyclist. But it was a very close thing.
I see, you are one of those who find those roads too dangerous for
bicyclists. I come upon power company work in that area, trimming
trees and repairing wires where one way traffic is controlled by
flagmen who invariable let bicyclists use the remainder of the largely
blocked lane to pass. I also notice that some fully safety equipped
bicyclists, with day-glow vests mirrors and HID headlights flashing,
rather wait with cars before riding through such zones.
There is a misunderstanding of sorts there. If one lane traffic with
bicycles in the same direction can pass safely, then bicyclists
obviously have enough room to pass with opposing traffic, there being
practically no bicyclists on that road to occupy both sides of car
traffic. If that were to occur, it behooves the opposing bicyclist to
yield his space if necessary, although this conflicts with some
rider's Apartheid attitude toward traffic.
Jobst Brandt
Mike Jacoubowsky
> How are they "specifically listed" to take the lane? I ride through
> Niles Canyon (CA HWY84) and Santa Cruz to Felton (CA HWY9) where there
> is no road beyond the lane edge stripe, both roads having plenty of
> car and truck traffic, and I have no problem on regular rides there.
OK, it's at this point where we need to point out, for those who haven't
come across Jobst, that he is an imposingly-large figure on a bike. And
regarding visibility on a bike and safety in general, size *does*
matter. Motorists are going to see him from a distance and give him more
room than they might for a smaller rider.
I learned long ago that, if I was concerned cars weren't giving me
enough room or maybe didn't see me, standing up makes a world of
difference. Part of it is simply improved visibility, and part of it is
that a cyclist standing on his or her pedals looks like they might be
about to "do" something. They don't appear as stable or predictable.
(There are two local riders I can spot near the limits of my eyesight.
Jobst is one, the other being Lindsay Crawford. Both are fairly big,
each with his own distinctive riding style, and they put in enough hours
on the bike that you see them fairly often.)
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
<jobst....@stanfordalumni.org> wrote in message
news:4a542aed$0$1621$742e...@news.sonic.net...
Tom Sherman °_°
> Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
> [...]
>>> Because this is so prevalent, road signs on our mountain roads don't
>>> just state "Share the Road", but rather "Bicycles - Share the Road"..
>
>> Got a photo? Sounds non-MUTCD to me.
>
> I didn't thin you would accuse me of lying but you just did.
A bit touchy here? I would not interpret Frank's comment as an
accusation, but as an expression of interest.
--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.
Tom Sherman °_°
> [...]
> Is it also rude to ask somebody by the side of the road if they need
Only if they appear to be discharging bodily waste.
Ozark Bicycle
wrote:
> jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org writes:
>
> > We have road signs in the Santa Cruz mountains stating "Bicycles -
> > Share the Road".
>
> Yes, and I read that sign as saying "There are likely to be bicycles
> here- share the road with them" addressed to motor vehicle operators.
Agreed - in fact, that seems so obvious, one wonders how anyone could
see it as being intended otherwise.
<remainder snipped>
Ozark Bicycle
> Doug Faunt wrote:
> >> We have road signs in the Santa Cruz mountains stating "Bicycles -
> >> Share the Road".
> > Yes, and I read that sign as saying "There are likely to be bicycles
> > here- share the road with them" addressed to motor vehicle
> > operators.
>
> It takes a biased perspective to see that sign in that interpretation.
Yes, Jobst, a perspective biased toward *reality*!
<remainder of Brandt rant snipped>
Art Harris
> For this and other bicycling reasons, I avoid group rides these days,
> because many riders make what I find are misplaced assumptions about
> group responsibility. On rides with others, I prefer to ride as
> though each of us were on self reliant solo rides and not thinking or
> acting for the others.
I agree. I hadn't done a group ride in a few years until last weekend.
Riding on quiet roads on a Sunday morning, there was a constant stream
of warnings shouted out (and relayed) for every little bump and crack
in the road. It gets pretty annoying.
Art Harris
SMS
> I learned long ago that, if I was concerned cars weren't giving me
> enough room or maybe didn't see me, standing up makes a world of
> difference.
While far too funky for a Madone, "http://www.flashback.ca/bicycle.html"
works wonders.
Peter Cole
> The flip side of this coin was on Canada Road maybe 5 years ago, when I
> came across a guy looking a bit dazed with blood on his forehead.
> Amazingly, I saw *many* riders (it was a beautiful Sunday, so the road
> was full of cyclists) ride right past him. As well as two joggers. I
> stopped and the guy was seriously out of it. He'd crashed but had no
> memory of what had happened. I called 911 on my cell phone and later
> found out he'd had a concussion and spent some time at the hospital, but
> came out OK in the end.
>
> How in the world would so many people ride past someone like that???
Perhaps "duty to rescue" & "good Samaritan" laws?
I stopped in a similar situation. There were others, but they bailed
quickly, leaving me with the guy. It turned out to be a rather
disturbing incident because the rider insisted on continuing his ride
(commute) but was obviously pretty out of it.
Jay Beattie
wrote:
No, it's like the the sign saying "Slow Children Ahead." It is to
warn you of approaching children who have low IQs -- and not that you
should necessarily slow down. I feel so sad for the parents when I
see these signs. -- Jay Beattie.
Tom Kunich
news:84268433-c30f-4bdc...@x25g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
> I agree. I hadn't done a group ride in a few years until last weekend.
> Riding on quiet roads on a Sunday morning, there was a constant stream
> of warnings shouted out (and relayed) for every little bump and crack
> in the road. It gets pretty annoying.
While I quite agree with you about half of the people I ride with don't look
where they're going in a group so if you don't shout a warning into their
ear they'll break a wheel off on an uncovered manhole. What's more, group
rides cannot keep themselves from having people racing each other and
pulling the entire group up to faster than they should be riding.
Tom Kunich
news:4a54241f$0$1621$742e...@news.sonic.net...
>
> I suppose you missed that I give a personal greeting to riders and
> hikers I meet along my rides.
I can attest to that. What's more it REALLY burns them up when you continue
riding up those cliff faces in the big ring.....
> To
> interrupt a person engrossed in tire repair or hardware adjustment
> with a question "Do you need help" is both an intrusion and a
> condescending slur, implying that the person is incapable of asking.
Well, I understand what you're saying but I've found that there are lots of
people who won't ask for help when they need it because they're afraid of
looking like boobs. I've even found people messing around dismounting tires
when they had no idea of how to fix a flat. And others who didn't have
either a patch kit or a spare innertube though they had a tire pump. Mike
and I probably tend to understand that a bit more than you since he is a
bike shop owner and I did a lot of support for kids racing.
Tom Kunich
news:4a542aed$0$1621$742e...@news.sonic.net...
>
> That occurs on Mt. Hamilton where the road has a double yellow line and
> dual Botts dots on a section between a cliff and a wall, both lanes
> together, not more than ten feet wide. I ride as close to the edge
> as practical in the event there 9is oncoming traffic in that long
> curve. If there is a car behind me, it is his prerogative to decide
> when to pass, not mine by visibly blocking.
I had exactly this argument with a member of our club when I was a younger
member. He too insisted on riding as far to the right as possible soas to
let the cars behind pass him when they felt. On a 6 lane road he was driven
into a ditch and never recovered enough to resume riding again. And he too
was a megamile rider.
So I take the lane when it isn't safe to pass and I make sure that no one
behind me tries to pass.
> I see you are a believer in "take the lane". If an equestrian were to
> do that in front of your car, I think you might have a different
> perspective. Whether passing in such a place is reasonable is up to
> the person passing, not the person blocking the passage.
Equestrians usually are traveling below walking speed. Bicyclists going
through sections such as we're talking about rarely block the road for more
than a half minute.
Tom Kunich
news:mfr3a97...@panix1.panix.com...
> jobst....@stanfordalumni.org writes:
>>
>> We have road signs in the Santa Cruz mountains stating "Bicycles -
>> Share the Road".
>
> Yes, and I read that sign as saying "There are likely to be bicycles
> here- share the road with them" addressed to motor vehicle operators.
Indeed that's what they're supposed to impart.
Tom Kunich
news:4a543444$0$1646$742e...@news.sonic.net...
> Doug Faunt wrote:
>
>>> We have road signs in the Santa Cruz mountains stating "Bicycles -
>>> Share the Road".
>
>> Yes, and I read that sign as saying "There are likely to be bicycles
>> here- share the road with them" addressed to motor vehicle
>> operators.
>
> It takes a biased perspective to see that sign in that interpretation.
> When do we see passing cars not share the road? Cars don't have a
> "Take the lane" road blocking maneuver that would deny bicyclists use
> of roads, but there are bixcyclists intent on blocking cars from
> traveling even at low speeds past their bicycling.
And I'm in total disagreement with you on that Jobst. That sign is supposed
to warn motorists that there are bicyclists on the road. Not to inform
bicyclists to share the road.
Bill Sornson
>> jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org writes:
>>> We have road signs in the Santa Cruz mountains stating "Bicycles -
>>> Share the Road".
> No, it's like the the sign saying "Slow Children Ahead." It is to
> warn you of approaching children who have low IQs -- and not that you
> should necessarily slow down. I feel so sad for the parents when I
> see these signs. -- Jay Beattie.
Nice. <eg>
Bill "methinks JB added a dash (and even that doesn't really change the
meaning)" S.
Doug Faunt N6TQS +1-510-655-8604
> Doug Faunt wrote:
>
> > In those same mountains, I did see a bicyclist blow through a
> > temporary single lane area, due to road work, against the temporary
> > red traffic light, and thought I was about to see a death, but the
> > motorist coming up hill did manage to get over far enough to avoid
> > splattering the cyclist. But it was a very close thing.
>
> I see, you are one of those who find those roads too dangerous for
> bicyclists. I come upon power company work in that area, trimming
> trees and repairing wires where one way traffic is controlled by
> flagmen who invariable let bicyclists use the remainder of the largely
> blocked lane to pass. I also notice that some fully safety equipped
> bicyclists, with day-glow vests mirrors and HID headlights flashing,
> rather wait with cars before riding through such zones.
>
> There is a misunderstanding of sorts there. If one lane traffic with
> bicycles in the same direction can pass safely, then bicyclists
> obviously have enough room to pass with opposing traffic, there being
> practically no bicyclists on that road to occupy both sides of car
> traffic. If that were to occur, it behooves the opposing bicyclist to
> yield his space if necessary, although this conflicts with some
> rider's Apartheid attitude toward traffic.
>
What don't you understand about a cyclist going the wrong way on a
one-way road, and very nearly paying for his life for that?
It really was one lane and a blind curve. Only a very alert motorist
who was willing to take a risk prevented that accident.
73, doug
SMS
> No, it's like the the sign saying "Slow Children Ahead." It is to
> warn you of approaching children who have low IQs -- and not that you
> should necessarily slow down. I feel so sad for the parents when I
> see these signs. -- Jay Beattie.
LOL, that's exactly what I think of when I see those signs! Geez, how
much would a comma have cost them?! I remember being in Youngstown Ohio
two years ago and I was riding down Ohio Avenue, and I saw a sign that
read "Slow Adult Ahead." I thought it was a strange sign until I did
some research.
Ronko
Mi...@ChainReaction.com says...
Bill Bushnell
> Nice. <eg>
The signs I have seen in the area (and that Jobst has also seen) usually look like
this.
--
Bill Bushnell
http://pobox.com/~bushnell/
Ben Pfaff
> The signs I have seen in the area (and that Jobst has also seen) usually look like
> this.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/ljcep6
Multiple variations are seen in practice:
http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~uno/diamondsigns/vehicles.html
--
Ben Pfaff
http://benpfaff.org
Frank Krygowski
> Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>
> > So Jobst, what do you do when you've got (say) an eight foot wide
> > lane on a two lane road, and no shoulder?
>
> That occurs on Mt. Hamilton where the road has a double yellow line and
> dual Botts dots on a section between a cliff and a wall, both lanes
> together, not more than ten feet wide. I ride as close to the edge
> as practical in the event there 9is oncoming traffic in that long
> curve. If there is a car behind me, it is his prerogative to decide
> when to pass, not mine by visibly blocking.
In my experience, riding at the edge of a narrow lane invites a
motorist to try to squeeze by, endangering the cyclist. Back in the
day when I rode that way, I had motorists pass close enough that I
could touch their windshield. In fact, two years ago, a timid friend
of mine had a passenger side mirror badly bruise here left arm in just
that situation. She now rides further left.
And speaking of experience: When it comes to cars passing bikes, my
experience as a cyclist trumps that of any motorist. I've been passed
by tens of thousands of cars. Most motorists around here go most
weeks without passing a single cyclist. I'm the one with more
expertise, I'm the one with the most to lose if something goes wrong,
and I have a legal right to use the road in safety. Therefore I use
my judgment to deter unsafe passing.
>
> > Me, I ride in the traffic lane. After all, it's not a "motor
> > vehicle lane," it's a traffic lane. I'm legal road traffic, and I'm
> > not required to endanger myself unreasonably by facilitating close
> > passes in narrow lanes.
>
> I see you are a believer in "take the lane". If an equestrian were to
> do that in front of your car, I think you might have a different
> perspective.
Sorry, you're wrong. Saturday, we drove to a family get-together,
motoring through Amish country. Equestrians (well, horse drawn
buggies and wagons) were very common. The Amish took the lane both on
side roads and on state highways. Motorists lined up behind them
until it was safe to pass (and incurred far more delay than I've ever
seen caused by cyclists). I never considered complaining; in fact,
nobody seemed to complain.
Roads are not for motor vehicles only; and if a motorist is delayed by
even (gasp!) a full minute, it's not a tragedy.
> >> Because this is so prevalent, road signs on our mountain roads don't
> >> just state "Share the Road", but rather "Bicycles - Share the Road"..
> > Got a photo? Sounds non-MUTCD to me.
>
> I didn't thin you would accuse me of lying but you just did.
Jobst, if I wanted to say you were lying, I'd say something like "You
are lying." I've seen plenty of "Share the Road" signs. I've never
seen one with punctuation indicating it was directed only at the
cyclists. The sign you described therefore sounds non-standard. So -
got a photo?
http://www.trafficsign.us/shs/warn/w16-1.pdf
and
http://www.dot.state.fl.us/trafficoperations/Operations/Studies/temanual/Chapter2/2.11.pdf
(or http://tinyurl.com/kn4cas )
show MUTCD versions. They're not what you describe.
And BTW,
http://www.dot.ca.gov/dist07/sync/pr/1X9204%20-%20PCH%202-29-08.pdf
says "“Share the Road” signs are posted to notify motorists to
accommodate cyclists and to ensure bicycle safety through the
construction zone." It doesn't say the intent is to get cyclists out
of the lane.
> > BTW. my state (like many) has specifically listed situations in
> > which cyclists are allowed to take the lane. A lane too narrow to
> > safely share is one of those situations.
>
> How are they "specifically listed" to take the lane?
From the Ohio Revised Code:
"4511.55 Riding Bicycles - Every person operating a bicycle on a
roadway shall ride as near to the right side of the roadway as
practicable, but may ride to the left of hazards, e.g., when fixed or
moving objects are in the way; when there are surface hazards; when it
is unsafe or otherwise impractical to do so - such
as when the lane is too narrow for the bicycle and an overtaking
vehicle to travel safely side by side..."
> In contrast, the "take the lane" types tell me they find those roads
> too dangerous to ride, which I can understand because they pick a
> fight with semi-trailer-trucks, commuters, and locals, by telling them
> when to drive and not to drive faster than their bicycles. These same
> people also slice other bicyclists with their car on such roads to
> demonstrate how unsafe it is. I have overheard such people recount
> such events that they created as a lesson. If I believe it's too
> dangerous, then I'll show that smart-ass why, is the scenario.
>
> I find this a classic of people who cannot see things from the other
> person's perspective. When in their cars, all bicyclists are jerks,
> and when on their bicycles, all motor vehicle operators are jerks.
> "Take the lane" bicycling is that perception.
I think you're conflating different groups of people, imagining they
all form one uniform group with which you disagree. You need to
sketch some Venn diagrams.
- Frank Krygowski
Frank Krygowski
> Doug Faunt wrote:
> >> We have road signs in the Santa Cruz mountains stating "Bicycles -
> >> Share the Road".
> > Yes, and I read that sign as saying "There are likely to be bicycles
> > here- share the road with them" addressed to motor vehicle
> > operators.
>
> It takes a biased perspective to see that sign in that interpretation.
Hmm. Not according to CalTrans. Again, they say things like "Share
the Road signs are posted to notify motorists to accommodate cyclists
and to ensure bicycle safety through the construction zone."
> When do we see passing cars not share the road?
Any impartial observer would see cars "not sharing the road" pretty
frequently. Within the past week, while either motoring or cycling,
I've seen lawn service trucks parked where they thoroughly block a
travel lane. I've seen motorists crawl along at 15 mph while either
searching for an address, or at 5 mph while simply talking
distractedly on a cell phone! (Fortunately, that guy was headed in
the opposite direction.) I've cycled past a young lady parked at a
stop sign, blocking traffic, while she texted a message. I've seen
motorists engaged in cell phone or passenger conversations hold up
traffic ten seconds after a traffic light turned green. These and
other motorist-caused delays completely outnumber all cyclist-caused
delays. In fact, I'm quite sure that motorists delay my bike much
more than my bike delays motorists.
> Cars don't have a
> "Take the lane" road blocking maneuver that would deny bicyclists use
> of roads, but there are bixcyclists intent on blocking cars from
> traveling even at low speeds past their bicycling.
When it's safe to do so, I certainly accommodate passing by
motorists. But I'm not going to put my safety at risk so some
motorist reaches the next red light five seconds sooner!
- Frank Krygowski
Dan O
That is a warning that bicycles are to be expected on the road.
Doug Faunt N6TQS +1-510-655-8604
> In ba.bicycles Bill Sornson <so...@noyb.com> wrote:
> > Jay Beattie wrote:
> > >> jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org writes:
>
> > >>> We have road signs in the Santa Cruz mountains stating "Bicycles -
> > >>> Share the Road".
>
> > > No, it's like the the sign saying "Slow Children Ahead." It is to
> > > warn you of approaching children who have low IQs -- and not that you
> > > should necessarily slow down. I feel so sad for the parents when I
> > > see these signs. -- Jay Beattie.
>
> > Nice. <eg>
>
> > Bill "methinks JB added a dash (and even that doesn't really change the
> > meaning)" S.
>
I've actually seen the sign that JB mentions, in the past couple of
weeks (on that same ride about which I mentioned the other problem),
and while I can't say if the hyphen was there, it certainly had
"Bicycles Share The Road" on separate lines of text, no icons. I, in
fact, noted at the time that it could be misinterpreted as JB does. I
suspect they're not standard because of that possible interpretation.
I was doing Black Road, Skyline, Hwy 9, Pierce Road; but don't recall
exactly where I saw that sign.
Some time with Google Street View might actually find an image, but I
don't have that much time now.
73, doug
Bill Sornson
Clearly directed at drivers, not cyclists.
Bill "no bias, no bull" S.
Tom Kunich
news:h32i2q$26p$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> In article <06OdnTeKdqLKq8nX...@earthlink.com>,
>
> A midget bike rider in day-glo green will be far more visible than Jobst.
Jobst has a dull colored bike and wears dull clothing but still stands WAY
out when he's riding. Someone as tall as he is tends to draw attention
regardless of other considerations.
Tom Kunich
news:mfrtz1n...@panix1.panix.com...
>
> I've actually seen the sign that JB mentions, in the past couple of
> weeks (on that same ride about which I mentioned the other problem),
> and while I can't say if the hyphen was there, it certainly had
> "Bicycles Share The Road" on separate lines of text, no icons. I, in
> fact, noted at the time that it could be misinterpreted as JB does.
Let's remember that Jobst is a superior rider and because of his speed and
his size which makes him very noticeable he has seldom had problems with
cars. So he has a little different viewpoint than the rest of us.
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>>>> We have road signs in the Santa Cruz mountains stating "Bicycles
>>>> - Share the Road".
>>> Yes, and I read that sign as saying "There are likely to be
>>> bicycles here- share the road with them" addressed to motor
>>> vehicle operators.
>> It takes a biased perspective to see that sign in that
>> interpretation. When do we see passing cars not share the road?
>> Cars don't have a "Take the lane" road blocking maneuver that would
>> deny bicyclists use of roads, but there are bicyclists intent on
>> blocking cars from traveling even at low speeds past their
>> bicycling.
> And I'm in total disagreement with you on that Jobst. That sign is
> supposed to warn motorists that there are bicyclists on the
> road. Not to inform bicyclists to share the road.
On a 55mph road a bicyclist on an upgrade causes large backups. How
many minutes that may be is immaterial. It is the animosity generated
in road users toward a bicyclist who takes it upon himself to control
traffic as he sees fit.
If in spite of riding at the right edge of the road, a backup ensues
because a driver is unwilling to pass, it behooves the bicyclist to
pull over and let cars pass, just as cars do in turnouts on mountain
roads provided for such circumstances. Bicyclists not doing so,
implies that they are special beings that have priority over other
road users, as in "take the lane".
Jobst Brandt
Tom Kunich
news:4a553192$0$1630$742e...@news.sonic.net...
>
>> And I'm in total disagreement with you on that Jobst. That sign is
>> supposed to warn motorists that there are bicyclists on the
>> road. Not to inform bicyclists to share the road.
>
> On a 55mph road a bicyclist on an upgrade causes large backups. How
> many minutes that may be is immaterial. It is the animosity generated
> in road users toward a bicyclist who takes it upon himself to control
> traffic as he sees fit.
>
> If in spite of riding at the right edge of the road, a backup ensues
> because a driver is unwilling to pass, it behooves the bicyclist to
> pull over and let cars pass, just as cars do in turnouts on mountain
> roads provided for such circumstances. Bicyclists not doing so,
> implies that they are special beings that have priority over other
> road users, as in "take the lane".
Err, we were discussing a sign Jobst.
I agree with you that cyclists should not arbitrarily impede automobiles and
I usually make every effort to keep their way clear. But if there's a lot of
traffic on a road without a bike lane or enough siding to stay out of their
way you have to get to the top sometime so it makes actually slows more cars
if you pull over on a busy road. You then have to pull out sometime and now
you're going even slower. Better to just keep slogging to the top if the
roadway is that bad.
But the fact is that such roadways are extremely rare. And I wonder how
often you've had to pull off the road on the upper end of Kings Mountain
Road or Old La Honda Rd.
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>>> And I'm in total disagreement with you on that Jobst. That sign is
>>> supposed to warn motorists that there are bicyclists on the road.
>>> Not to inform bicyclists to share the road.
>> On a 55mph road a bicyclist on an upgrade causes large backups.
>> How many minutes that may be is immaterial. It is the animosity
>> generated in road users toward a bicyclist who takes it upon
>> himself to control traffic as he sees fit.
>> If in spite of riding at the right edge of the road, a backup
>> ensues because a driver is unwilling to pass, it behooves the
>> bicyclist to pull over and let cars pass, just as cars do in
>> turnouts on mountain roads provided for such circumstances.
>> Bicyclists not doing so, implies that they are special beings that
>> have priority over other road users, as in "take the lane".
> Err, we were discussing a sign Jobst.
> I agree with you that cyclists should not arbitrarily impede
> automobiles and I usually make every effort to keep their way clear.
> But if there's a lot of traffic on a road without a bike lane or
> enough siding to stay out of their way you have to get to the top
> sometime so it makes actually slows more cars if you pull over on a
> busy road. You then have to pull out sometime and now you're going
> even slower. Better to just keep slogging to the top if the roadway
> is that bad.
Thanks. Page Mill Road with its intermittent 20% grades often
requires a bit of letting cars pass on the way up. Sonora Pass HWY108
has even more of such places.
> But the fact is that such roadways are extremely rare. And I wonder
> how often you've had to pull off the road on the upper end of Kings
> Mountain Road or Old La Honda Rd.
It happens about every time I ride those roads as well as HWY9 from
Santa Cruz to Felton.
Jobst Brandt
Michael Press
Doug Faunt N6TQS +1-510-655-8604 <fa...@panix.com> wrote:
> jobst....@stanfordalumni.org writes:
>
> >
> > We have road signs in the Santa Cruz mountains stating "Bicycles -
> > Share the Road".
> >
>
> Yes, and I read that sign as saying "There are likely to be bicycles
> here- share the road with them" addressed to motor vehicle operators.
I abide by both readings.
I can only do something about my behavior.
--
Michael Press
Bill Bushnell
I don't think straw men help understanding.
Let's make the case a bit less clear-cut.
Is a bicyclist riding properly when he is riding in the center of the lane moving,
say, at 35 mph here:
Or here:
, locations where auto traffic speed varies from 35 to 50 mph?
Michael Press
"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
I totally disagree with you. The intention with which the
sign was installed weighs not at all in my accounting. I
see those signs as indicating to motorists that bicycles
are fully enfranchised road users. To bicyclists they
indicate that motorists are full enfranchised road users.
See how sharing works? Anybody's attitude is easily
discernible to others. Somebody riding a bicycle that is
ill disposed toward motorists will get his message across.
It is not fair to taunt motorists, for then they must
deal with the feelings that arise.
--
Michael Press
Michael Press
<5b42a2c4-2287-4c64...@t33g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>,
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Any impartial observer would see cars "not sharing the road" pretty
> frequently. Within the past week, while either motoring or cycling,
> I've seen lawn service trucks parked where they thoroughly block a
> travel lane. I've seen motorists crawl along at 15 mph while either
> searching for an address, or at 5 mph while simply talking
> distractedly on a cell phone! (Fortunately, that guy was headed in
> the opposite direction.) I've cycled past a young lady parked at a
> stop sign, blocking traffic, while she texted a message. I've seen
> motorists engaged in cell phone or passenger conversations hold up
> traffic ten seconds after a traffic light turned green. These and
> other motorist-caused delays completely outnumber all cyclist-caused
> delays. In fact, I'm quite sure that motorists delay my bike much
> more than my bike delays motorists.
I do not see any of that.
--
Michael Press
Tom Kunich
news:4a55372c$0$1630$742e...@news.sonic.net...
>
> Page Mill Road with its intermittent 20% grades often
> requires a bit of letting cars pass on the way up. Sonora Pass HWY108
> has even more of such places.
But Page Mill Road has places to pull over above and below those nasty
places. I haven't ridden Sonora Pass so I'll take your word for it.
>> But the fact is that such roadways are extremely rare. And I wonder
>> how often you've had to pull off the road on the upper end of Kings
>> Mountain Road or Old La Honda Rd.
>
> It happens about every time I ride those roads as well as HWY9 from
> Santa Cruz to Felton.
I've ridden Hwy 9 from Felton to Santa Cruz a number of times and while
there are places where the road is too narrow to allow passing safely, the
distance to a place where you can get out of the way of cars is usually
within less than a half minute.
I agree with you that we shouldn't be arbitrarily blocking traffic. But WE
are road users as well. And while I don't know about you, but I've paid
enough taxes that I'm not in the least worried about having paid for my
place on the roadway.
Jay Beattie
Dang. I thought you were talking about riding up HWY 17. I did that
once -- one of the stupidest things I have ever done. I was in a
hurry and didn't feel like going around the reservoir. -- Jay Beattie.
Tom Kunich
news:4a553b91$0$1622$742e...@news.sonic.net...
>
> Let's make the case a bit less clear-cut.
>
> Is a bicyclist riding properly when he is riding in the center of the lane
> moving,
> say, at 35 mph here:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/nky2or
>
> Or here:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/lwxfr2
>
> , locations where auto traffic speed varies from 35 to 50 mph?
I don't understand what you're asking Bill. If you are asking if I would
pull over on those roads if I were doing 35 mph and there was a car
approaching going in my direction from behind? No I would not. I would take
the whole road and he could just wait his turn.
Now if I were going the opposite way UP and doing 10 mph I would try to
allow a car to pass safely.
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>> Page Mill Road with its intermittent 20% grades often requires a
>> bit of letting cars pass on the way up. Sonora Pass HWY108 has
>> even more of such places.
> But Page Mill Road has places to pull over above and below those
> nasty places. I haven't ridden Sonora Pass so I'll take your word
> for it.
... or on these sections. You can do it if you believe that cars
don't naturally travel at less than 5mph.
>>> But the fact is that such roadways are extremely rare. And I
>>> wonder how often you've had to pull off the road on the upper end
>>> of Kings Mountain Road or Old La Honda Rd.
>> It happens about every time I ride those roads as well as HWY9 from
>> Santa Cruz to Felton.
> I've ridden Hwy 9 from Felton to Santa Cruz a number of times and
> while there are places where the road is too narrow to allow passing
> safely, the distance to a place where you can get out of the way of
> cars is usually within less than a half minute.
On the up hill there is no place for that before the RR crossing but a
bicyclist can ride as closely as possible to the concrete wall and
stop to let cars pass. Often a "track stand" is enough.
> I agree with you that we shouldn't be arbitrarily blocking traffic.
> But WE are road users as well. And while I don't know about you,
> but I've paid enough taxes that I'm not in the least worried about
> having paid for my place on the roadway.
Get off the legality of it and consider the human interaction and
courtesy people should show each other.
Jobst Brandt
Clive George
news:4a554534$0$1677$742e...@news.sonic.net...
> Get off the legality of it and consider the human interaction and
> courtesy people should show each other.
Like I see when I ride mountains in France, or even hills here. I'm not a
fast climber, but I never have any problem with cars simply waiting for an
appropriate moment to pass. I don't hug the side of the road, and it's
extremely rare that I have to explicitly let a car by - and even then it's
just a few yards on the very edge combined with a signal to tell them to
take that gap I've just given them.
I don't take the mickey, like the group of French riders I saw on the Col
d'Allos who took a narrow section as a bunch, forcing the car coming the
other way to stop (single file would have fitted fine), but I'm not
compromising my safe riding position out of a misguided notion of
"courtesy" - I'm behaving as people do in civilised countries.
Tom Kunich
news:4a554534$0$1677$742e...@news.sonic.net...
>
> Get off the legality of it and consider the human interaction and
> courtesy people should show each other.
Perhaps you aren't thinking that you yourself deserve a bit of courtesy from
car operators?
Again, I don't delay cars if I can avoid it but I don't make a big deal out
of avoiding it. When large heavy trucks are blocking the road should they
pull over to let faster traffic by?
Tom Kunich
news:NcqdnYxJ8JzR1MjX...@brightview.co.uk...
I think that pretty much sums up my attitude as well.
Frank Krygowski
> In article
> <5b42a2c4-2287-4c64-9c8b-cacd7568f...@t33g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>,
> Frank Krygowski <frkry...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Any impartial observer would see cars "not sharing the road" pretty
> > frequently. Within the past week, while either motoring or cycling,
> > I've seen lawn service trucks parked where they thoroughly block a
> > travel lane. I've seen motorists crawl along at 15 mph while either
> > searching for an address, or at 5 mph while simply talking
> > distractedly on a cell phone! (Fortunately, that guy was headed in
> > the opposite direction.) I've cycled past a young lady parked at a
> > stop sign, blocking traffic, while she texted a message. I've seen
> > motorists engaged in cell phone or passenger conversations hold up
> > traffic ten seconds after a traffic light turned green. These and
> > other motorist-caused delays completely outnumber all cyclist-caused
> > delays. In fact, I'm quite sure that motorists delay my bike much
> > more than my bike delays motorists.
>
> I do not see any of that.
You don't see incidents like those I described? I'm amazed! Those are
all things I've seen in the past week! (Well, the girl texting may
have been about 8 or 9 days ago, I'm not sure.)
The conversation after the light turned green happened Sunday. I had
started when the light turned green, and was track-standing behind and
to the side of the car, saying twice "It's green, you can go now." If
I hadn't said that, I might still be waiting there
- Frank Krygowski
Frank Krygowski
> "Clive George" <cl...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> news:NcqdnYxJ8JzR1MjX...@brightview.co.uk...
>
>
>
And mine.
- Frank Krygowski
Bill Bushnell
> news:4a553b91$0$1622$742e...@news.sonic.net...
> >
> > Let's make the case a bit less clear-cut.
> >
> > Is a bicyclist riding properly when he is riding in the center of the lane
> > moving,
> > say, at 35 mph here:
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/nky2or
> >
> > Or here:
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/lwxfr2
> >
> > , locations where auto traffic speed varies from 35 to 50 mph?
> I don't understand what you're asking Bill. If you are asking if I would
> pull over on those roads if I were doing 35 mph and there was a car
> approaching going in my direction from behind? No I would not. I would take
> the whole road and he could just wait his turn.
You got it.
Ok. What if the bicyclist were going slower, say, 25 mph? What is the minimum
reasonable speed that a bicylist could travel to be allowed use of the full lane
on this particular section of road where there are curves and no paved shoulder?
Case 1:
I was driving an automobile down La Honda Rd. (second link above) at a brisk but
not reckless speed and came upon a platoon of three cars about one mile west of
Skylonda, at the front of which was a bicyclist riding about 25-30 mph. That
speed felt a bit slow to me, surrounded as I was by 2 tons of glass and metal,
but as a fellow cyclist I realized that the cyclist at the front could not be
expected to go much faster on this gradual downgrade.
I watched as each of the cars in front of me buzzed past the cyclist, across the
double yellow line, near blind curves, gambling that there was no opposing
traffic. When I found myself behind the cyclist I decided to hang back and not
tailgate him and to see if he would on his own move to the shoulder at a couple
of spots where I know this can comfortably be done (before the Old La Honda Rd.
junction and lower at an open section before the bottom of the descent) where
following traffic can pass without crossing to the opposite lane.
At these more open sections he didn't move to the shoulder, and opposite traffic
prevented my crossing the double-yellow line, even though visibility was good, so
I followed him all the way into La Honda, where I turned off the highway. I
figured I had lost a minute at most.
Maybe this cyclist was one of Jobst's militant "take-the-lane" adherents. I can
see how it can be frustrating to faster traffic to come upon a slower vehicle.
And in this case I think the cyclist should have used the shoulder if there was
space and time to let at least one of the following cars past. I don't think he
was riding unreasonably where there was no place to pull off. But then I tend to
be a laid-back driver willing to give the cyclist more accommodation than most
drivers of that road, habituated as they are to driving it unimpeded at a certain
speed.
Case 2:
I was on my bike riding in the center of the lane descending the section of
Skyline Blvd. (CA35) at the first link above at about 35-40 mph. Just before I
got to the mild S-curves at the bottom of the hill at the foot of Mt. Melville a
car approached at high speed from behind and tailgated me briefly. Then the
driver sat on his horn, crossed the center line in the curve, came alongside, and
feigned an attempt to push me off the road, as seen in the movies. Calling his
bluff--his car was nearly new--I didn't change my line, and fortunately, no
physical contact was made.
Who was unreasonable in this case?
I think the problem is that individual judgment varies widely. As a motorist I
might not mind following a cyclist at a moderate speed for some distance, but
some drivers seem unable to suffer anything on the road that slows them down.
Tom Keats
"Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com> writes:
>> If you really need roadside assistance, lie your bike
>> flat down on the ground and wear a desperate, consternated
>> look on your face. And hope you don't get robbed.
> The flip side of this coin was on Canada Road maybe 5 years ago, when I
> came across a guy looking a bit dazed with blood on his forehead.
> Amazingly, I saw *many* riders (it was a beautiful Sunday, so the road
> was full of cyclists) ride right past him. As well as two joggers. I
> stopped and the guy was seriously out of it. He'd crashed but had no
> memory of what had happened. I called 911 on my cell phone and later
> found out he'd had a concussion and spent some time at the hospital, but
> came out OK in the end.
Of course it is entirely appropriate to offer assistance, as
you (quite properly) did, when there is a possibility it may
truly be needed.
> How in the world would so many people ride past someone like that???
Maybe fear of litigation plays a part?
Here in Vancouver there's a population of homeless people,
some of whom are dazed either from lack of prescribed
medication, or too much self-medication with the bad stuff.
As a consequence, sometimes they get beaten up, or hit by
cars, or they simply fall down. Many citizens are loathe
to "get involved" when these unfortunate folks could use
some help, too. Maybe people get to be leery of dazed
strangers in general.
And then there's the "Me Generation" and its aftershocks.
It seems to me a lot of people in North America have been
raised with the notion that their own self-esteem and
self-interests are the most important things in the world.
Couple that with growing up in environments and lifestyles
which don't foster much of a community spirit, and you've
got a bunch of people who don't even know how
to care about others.
cheers,
Tom
--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca
Peter Cole
> And then there's the "Me Generation" and its aftershocks.
> It seems to me a lot of people in North America have been
> raised with the notion that their own self-esteem and
> self-interests are the most important things in the world.
> Couple that with growing up in environments and lifestyles
> which don't foster much of a community spirit, and you've
> got a bunch of people who don't even know how
> to care about others.
Although it's popular to trash the current generation, maybe with
justification, I think this behavior is old news. I remember an incident
(many years ago) where a bunch of us returned from the library late one
winter night to find an elderly woman collapsed on the sidewalk in front
of our house. One of our party had left a few minutes earlier, and we
found his tracks in the snow leading up to and then stepping over the woman.
Douglas Adams wrote about the invention of the "somebody else's problem"
field generator. Some people don't need one.
Tom Kunich
>
> I was on my bike riding in the center of the lane descending the section
> of
> Skyline Blvd. (CA35) at the first link above at about 35-40 mph. Just
> before I
> got to the mild S-curves at the bottom of the hill at the foot of Mt.
> Melville a
> car approached at high speed from behind and tailgated me briefly. Then
> the
> driver sat on his horn, crossed the center line in the curve, came
> alongside, and
> feigned an attempt to push me off the road, as seen in the movies.
> Calling his
> bluff--his car was nearly new--I didn't change my line, and fortunately,
> no
> physical contact was made.
>
> Who was unreasonable in this case?
Let's remember that trying to use a car as a deadly weapon is a felony. That
should be impressed on ALL drivers. Instead it becomes a game and often cops
seeing it with their own eyes will do nothing about it.
> I think the problem is that individual judgment varies widely. As a
> motorist I
> might not mind following a cyclist at a moderate speed for some distance,
> but
> some drivers seem unable to suffer anything on the road that slows them
> down.
I have had cars pass me on downhills and then be slower than I was going.
There's something in the psyche of many drivers that makes them feel
superior to everyone else.
Jay Beattie
I don't think anyone wants to sit behind what he or she considers to
be a slow moving vehicle. Motorists consider bicyclists to be slow
moving vehicles. The problem is when they are wrong -- like on
descents. A motorist may roar around a bike at the top of a descent
and then end up crawling down the hill, trying to negotiate the tight
turns. Other cars may amount to slow moving vehicles, too,
particularly RVs, trucks, etc., but there is no opportunity to pass
them -- not like with bikes, although around here, the motorcyclists
will pass anything anywhere. -- Jay Beattie.
russell...@yahoo.com
I never ride on the shoulder of the road. My bicycle is a legal
vehicle of the road. It belongs on the road. The shoulder is not the
road. I wonder if it is even legal to drive/ride on the shoulder. If
a cop came upon a car driving on the shoulder, and there was not an
obvious reason such as a flat tire and no spare or sputtering motor,
would the cop just go on by or would he stop and give the car a ticket
for driving on the shoulder illegally? And of course there is the
obvious problem with shoulders, it is where all of the glass and
stickers and retread wire ends up and you will puncture your bike
tires very quickly.
I guess I figure if bicyclists ride on the shoulder, they are telling
cars they do not belong on the road and are not legal users of the
road and must only ride on shoulders, sidewalks or bike paths. And
are fair game to be murdered if they dare encroach upon the domain of
the road where cars are the only proper users.
I don't think he
> was riding unreasonably where there was no place to pull off. But then I tend to
> be a laid-back driver willing to give the cyclist more accommodation than most
> drivers of that road, habituated as they are to driving it unimpeded at a certain
> speed.
>
> Case 2:
>
> I was on my bike riding in the center of the lane descending the section of
> Skyline Blvd. (CA35) at the first link above at about 35-40 mph. Just before I
> got to the mild S-curves at the bottom of the hill at the foot of Mt. Melville a
> car approached at high speed from behind and tailgated me briefly. Then the
> driver sat on his horn, crossed the center line in the curve, came alongside, and
> feigned an attempt to push me off the road, as seen in the movies. Calling his
> bluff--his car was nearly new--I didn't change my line, and fortunately, no
> physical contact was made.
>
> Who was unreasonable in this case?
>
> I think the problem is that individual judgment varies widely. As a motorist I
> might not mind following a cyclist at a moderate speed for some distance, but
> some drivers seem unable to suffer anything on the road that slows them down.
>
> --
> Bill Bushnellhttp://pobox.com/~bushnell/- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Tim McNamara
Bill Bushnell <mrb...@pobox.com> wrote:
<snip>
Bill, I think what you're somewhat obliquely highlighting is that for
many people, cooperation with others and allowing them to "get ahead"
is perceived as "losing." If I don't "take the lane" and assert my
rights to the road, then I have "lost" the interaction. Basically it is
misplaced competition. This occurs in all human interactions in which
people lose sight of the fact that cooperation is usually more effective
and usually less destructive than competition (indeed, a type of
cooperation underpins competition).
Tim McNamara
<ab245303-13d6-4133...@c36g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
"russell...@yahoo.com" <russell...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I never ride on the shoulder of the road. My bicycle is a legal
> vehicle of the road. It belongs on the road. The shoulder is not
> the road. I wonder if it is even legal to drive/ride on the
> shoulder. If a cop came upon a car driving on the shoulder, and
> there was not an obvious reason such as a flat tire and no spare or
> sputtering motor, would the cop just go on by or would he stop and
> give the car a ticket for driving on the shoulder illegally? And of
> course there is the obvious problem with shoulders, it is where all
> of the glass and stickers and retread wire ends up and you will
> puncture your bike tires very quickly.
>
> I guess I figure if bicyclists ride on the shoulder, they are telling
> cars they do not belong on the road and are not legal users of the
> road and must only ride on shoulders, sidewalks or bike paths. And
> are fair game to be murdered if they dare encroach upon the domain of
> the road where cars are the only proper users.
Cognitive rigidity in action.
Michael Press
<d7dbbce6-a38a-45f8...@h31g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
I am too busy watching the way the cars move to
look at a driver; always moving my attention from
one to the next, and watching the pavement as well.
--
Michael Press
Don Freeman
I believe the point was that no one was moving.
(PeteCresswell)
>So Jobst, what do you do when you've got (say) an eight foot wide lane
>on a two lane road, and no shoulder?
>
>Me, I ride in the traffic lane. After all, it's not a "motor vehicle
>lane," it's a traffic lane.
I'm not Jobst.... but I've got say it: I wouldn't ride there,
period.
I suspect that many people are unaware of motor vehicle drivers
who have no compunction about intentionally hitting a cyclist
with their vehicle - and know they can get away with it.
How many are there? What are the chances that I will provoke
one by riding in their path? "If you can't afford to lose,
don't play the game."
--
PeteCresswell
d p chang
i think in either direction (to/from sc) this would be one of the
scarier rides i can think of.
\p
---
When your work speaks for itself, don't interrupt. - Henry J. Kaiser
Michael Press
Don Freeman <free...@cosmoslair.com> wrote:
Then I look at the wheels of the car, where the rubber
meets the road, and the angle of the front wheels.
Also if the brake lights are one, if the back up lights
are on, and if a turn signal is flashing. All these
are much quicker reads, than peering through glass
only to see a head high cushion; and much more informative.
Then I quickly move on to other traffic. If I am looking
to pass a slow or stopped vehicle, then I look behind
to detect and advise motorists behind me.
--
Michael Press
Frank Krygowski
> > Frank Krygowski <frkry...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> The conversation after the light turned green happened Sunday. I had
> >> started when the light turned green, and was track-standing behind and
> >> to the side of the car, saying twice "It's green, you can go now." If
> >> I hadn't said that, I might still be waiting there
>
> > I am too busy watching the way the cars move to
> > look at a driver;
>
> I believe the point was that no one was moving.
Exactly. They were first at the light, I was second, the light was
green, but nobody was moving.
If it were a cyclist causing that ten second delay, I'm sure the
motorists behind us would have been really angry. As it was, there
were no horns or shouts - just me, calmly letting them know that I
can't do a track stand forever!
- Frank Krygowski
Frank Krygowski
> Per Frank Krygowski:
>
> >So Jobst, what do you do when you've got (say) an eight foot wide lane
> >on a two lane road, and no shoulder?
>
> >Me, I ride in the traffic lane. After all, it's not a "motor vehicle
> >lane," it's a traffic lane.
>
> I'm not Jobst.... but I've got say it: I wouldn't ride there,
> period.
>
> I suspect that many people are unaware of motor vehicle drivers
> who have no compunction about intentionally hitting a cyclist
> with their vehicle - and know they can get away with it.
And there are people out there who will mug you when you leave the
mall, and people who will kidnap your kid the minute he's out of your
sight, and bogeymen in the woods. It's a dangerous world, all right!
(OK, sarcasm off now.)
>
> How many are there?
Few. Very few. Remember there are at least ten million miles ridden
between bike fatalities. It's not dangerous.
> What are the chances that I will provoke
> one by riding in their path?
Minimal. And I can't imagine trying to live so I never, ever provoked
anybody.
> "If you can't afford to lose, don't play the game."
Have the courage to really live.
- Frank Krygowski
Mike Jacoubowsky
> A midget bike rider in day-glo green will be far more visible than
> Jobst.
Strike one.
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
"Ronko" <ronkr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:h32i2q$26p$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> In article <06OdnTeKdqLKq8nX...@earthlink.com>,
> Mi...@ChainReaction.com says...
>>
>>
>><jobst....@stanfordalumni.org> wrote
>>> How are they "specifically listed" to take the lane? I ride through
>>> Niles Canyon (CA HWY84) and Santa Cruz to Felton (CA HWY9)
> where there
>>> is no road beyond the lane edge stripe, both roads having plenty of
>>> car and truck traffic, and I have no problem on regular rides there.
>>
>>OK, it's at this point where we need to point out, for those who
> haven't
>>come across Jobst, that he is an imposingly-large figure on a bike.
> And
>>regarding visibility on a bike and safety in general, size *does*
>>matter. Motorists are going to see him from a distance and give him
> more
>>room than they might for a smaller rider.
>>
>>I learned long ago that, if I was concerned cars weren't giving me
>>enough room or maybe didn't see me, standing up makes a world of
>>difference. Part of it is simply improved visibility, and part of it
>>is
>>that a cyclist standing on his or her pedals looks like they might be
>>about to "do" something. They don't appear as stable or predictable.
>>
>>(There are two local riders I can spot near the limits of my eyesight.
>>Jobst is one, the other being Lindsay Crawford. Both are fairly big,
>>each with his own distinctive riding style, and they put in enough
> hours
>>on the bike that you see them fairly often.)
>>
>>--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
>>www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
>>
>>
>><jobst....@stanfordalumni.org> wrote in message
>>news:4a542aed$0$1621$742e...@news.sonic.net...
>>> Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Beyond that, the John Forester disciples of "take the lane" folks
>>>>> cause animosity between my bicycle ride and cars. Riding on
> local
>>>>> mountain roads with no shoulder become a war zone with riders
>>>>> insist on riding into the traffic lane at least a yard from the
>>>>> edge stripe, not realizing that this is an affront to passing
>>>>> traffic.
>>>
>>>> So Jobst, what do you do when you've got (say) an eight foot wide
>>>> lane on a two lane road, and no shoulder?
>>>
>>> That occurs on Mt. Hamilton where the road has a double yellow
> line
>>> and
>>> dual Botts dots on a section between a cliff and a wall, both lanes
>>> together, not more than ten feet wide. I ride as close to the edge
>>> as practical in the event there 9is oncoming traffic in that long
>>> curve. If there is a car behind me, it is his prerogative to decide
>>> when to pass, not mine by visibly blocking.
>>>
>>>> Me, I ride in the traffic lane. After all, it's not a "motor
>>>> vehicle lane," it's a traffic lane. I'm legal road traffic, and
>>>> I'm
>>>> not required to endanger myself unreasonably by facilitating close
>>>> passes in narrow lanes.
>>>
>>> I see you are a believer in "take the lane". If an equestrian were
>>> to
>>> do that in front of your car, I think you might have a different
>>> perspective. Whether passing in such a place is reasonable is up to
>>> the person passing, not the person blocking the passage.
>>>
>>>>> Because this is so prevalent, road signs on our mountain roads
> don't
>>>>> just state "Share the Road", but rather "Bicycles - Share the
>>>>> Road"..
>>>
>>>> Got a photo? Sounds non-MUTCD to me.
>>>
>>> I didn't thin you would accuse me of lying but you just did.
>>>
>>> Let me say it once more:
>>>
>>> We have road signs in the Santa Cruz mountains stating "Bicycles -
>>> Share the Road".
>>>
>>>> BTW. my state (like many) has specifically listed situations in
>>>> which cyclists are allowed to take the lane. A lane too narrow to
>>>> safely share is one of those situations.
>>>
>>> How are they "specifically listed" to take the lane? I ride through
>>> Niles Canyon (CA HWY84) and Santa Cruz to Felton (CA HWY9)
> where there
>>> is no road beyond the lane edge stripe, both roads having plenty of
>>> car and truck traffic, and I have no problem on regular rides there.
>>>
>>> In contrast, the "take the lane" types tell me they find those roads
>>> too dangerous to ride, which I can understand because they pick a
>>> fight with semi-trailer-trucks, commuters, and locals, by telling
> them
>>> when to drive and not to drive faster than their bicycles. These
> same
>>> people also slice other bicyclists with their car on such roads to
>>> demonstrate how unsafe it is. I have overheard such people
> recount
>>> such events that they created as a lesson. If I believe it's too
>>> dangerous, then I'll show that smart-ass why, is the scenario.
>>>
>>> I find this a classic of people who cannot see things from the other
>>> person's perspective. When in their cars, all bicyclists are jerks,
>>> and when on their bicycles, all motor vehicle operators are jerks.
>>> "Take the lane" bicycling is that perception.
>>>
>>> Jobst Brandt
>>
>>
> A midget bike rider in day-glo green will be far more visible than
> Jobst.
>
Tom Keats
Well, I wasn't really out to trash any particular generation.
I've just observed how social values have changed over time,
with unintended consequences. I'm guessing that each generation
wrongly supposes its values will somehow be tacitly and innately
transferred to its posterity.
As for my "growing up in environments and lifestyles
which don't foster much of a community spirit" comment,
I'm conjecturing folks who've grown up in more population
rarified areas (newly developed suburban or subsuburban
residential areas) might have been deprived of gaining
a sense of community.
I'm aware of how ~really~ population rarified areas,
i.e: agricultural areas, actually foster a very strong
sense of community. Although people are spread further
apart, they'll interact with each other. Same thing
for older, more established suburbs that have become
civilized enough to acquire sidewalks, and enough
fire hydrants. Maybe even a real Fire Department.
But out in the cheap, newly-developed real estate,
I suspect the residents just don't have enough time
after working and commuting, (and on weekends,
excursing the mini-van into Civilisa- erm, I mean
The City to buy stuff,) to establish real communities.
People move out to the sticks, and work & commute
their padonkadonks off, to raise posterity. 'Cuz
they can't afford the white picket fence dream
anywhere else. That's the lifestyle component
to my point. And the only opportunity their kids
might get to meet each other, is at the same time
every day, on the same ol' school bus, or via
FaceBook.
When I look back upon my own taken-for-granted youth,
I had streets, playgrounds, parks, abandoned lumber
yards, corner stores, schools, other people's back yards,
etc as venues in which to associate with my peers.
I think that's what kids need: association with their peers,
and places to do so. Not a sterile, lonely back yard fronted
by a cute white picket fence, in a real estate terrarium.
Furthermore, "texting" within the same area code is
just /so/ perverse.
Bill Bushnell
> <snip>
That's a good point, although I hadn't intended to point that out. The point
that I probably should have summarized in my prior message was that in my
experience I have had poorer interaction experiences between bikes and autos when
bikes are going close to but not quite as fast as typical auto speeds.
When a bicyclist is riding slowly it easy for a driver of a motor vehicle to pass
as the bicyclist is usually riding near the edge of the road and the speed
differential is high, making the pass easy to do within limited distance.
When a bicyclist is riding close to motor vehicle speed such as on a downhill,
the bicyclist is usually using most of the lane and the speed differential is
small, requiring more time for a driver to execute the pass, which must be made
by crossing into the adjacent lane. Moreover, drivers who choose to pass a
slightly slower-moving cyclist rather than follow for a while are often the more
aggressive drivers.
I run into this problem every day when I ride to work at the following location
where I get into the low-30's coming off a bridge over railroad tracks,
slower than the usual 40+ mph motor traffic. (Speed limit is 30 mph.) Although
it's difficult to see in the wide-angle photo of Google's Street View, the right
lane goes from comfortably wide to narrow at the center of the photo. I use the
full lane there but am frequently buzzed and honked at even though I'm still
moving 25-30 mph at that point.