Great googly-moogly
herodotus
instead of CHIEFS in the endzones and says "Great googly-moogly"
when it is pointed out to him? I just heard that phrase again, in
Zappa's Dont' Eat the Yello Snow. How old is this phrase?
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Dennis Bathory-Kitsz
>
> Remember the Snickers commercial where the guy paints CHEFS
> instead of CHIEFS in the endzones and says "Great googly-moogly"
> when it is pointed out to him? I just heard that phrase again, in
> Zappa's Dont' Eat the Yello Snow. How old is this phrase?
My grandfather used it when I was a very small child (as "great
googla-moogla") in the early 1950s, and as I recall Screamin' Jay
Hawkins also used it in his classic 1950s song, "You Put a Spell on Me".
Dennis
--
Dennis Báthory-Kitsz
MaltedMedia Productions: http://maltedmedia.com/
Kalvos & Damian's New Music Bazaar: http://kalvos.org/
The Transitive Empire: http://maltedmedia.com/empire/
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ICQ: 10526261 / AIM: DBathory
Dennis Bathory-Kitsz
>
> Quibble time. Dennis, are you sure Screamin' Jay didn't say "great googa
> mooga"?
I'm not certain. I have the record, though, and I'll check -- it's
vinyl, so I'll have to hook up the turntable... dig dig dig dig... ah,
here it is. I'll hook it up after my radio show & get back to you later
today!
Orne Batmagoo
["Great Googly-moogly!"]
[Snickers commercial, Frank Zappa, Dennis's grandfather, Screamin' Jay Hawkins.]
> Quibble time. Dennis, are you sure Screamin' Jay didn't say "great googa
> mooga"? I can say for sure that a DJ in the Philadelphia area in the 1950's
> ("The Geator"), a contemporary of the great Hawkins, used "great googa
> mooga." I always thought The Geator stole it from Jay.
They were probably afraid that the estate of W. C. Fields would sue them for
copyright infringement.
--
Orne Batmagoo
"Godfrey Daniels!"
Orne Batmagoo
> ["Great Googly-moogly!"]
I'm following up my own post. All I really said was,
> They were probably afraid that the estate of W. C. Fields would sue them for
> copyright infringement.
My meaning, of course, is that W. C. Fields is the originator of the phrase.
It's unlikely that he stole it from anybody else, as his express purpose was
getting "cuss words" past the censors. Fields had started his movie career
in silent films. So, when "talkies" began, there simply had not been many
folks who preceded Fields, who also wanted to get stuff past the censors.
What Fields Said What the Censor Forbade
---------------- -----------------------
Great Googly-moogly! Great God Almighty!
Godfrey Daniel! God damn it!
Must have been an Ethiopian Must have been a n----- in the
in the fuel supply. woodpile.
The list goes on; Fields got away with saying "oo-scray" (screw) instead
of "am-scray" (scram) in _The_Fatal_Glass_of_Beer_. In another film,
_The_Old_Fashioned_Way_, a character says, "Aw, fudge!" to which Fields
reacts, "Don't use that kind of language in front of my daughter."
"Fields commits more violations of the Hays Code than all the other stars
combined," wrote Alva Johnston in The Saturday Evening Post in 1938.
Although memos from that era indicate that both were on the "forbidden" list,
Fields managed to use the words "dick" and "pussy" prominently throughout his
film _The_Bank_Dick_. From <http://www.louisville.edu/~kprayb01/WChumor.html>:
Thus, Fields manages to set up a scenario whereby his "hero," Egbert
Souse'--the bank "dick" (slang for detective)--derives his most pleasure
while inside the "Black Pussy" (a tavern). That connection was lost on
everybody, but the censors went ballistic at the name "Black Pussy Cafe,"
until Fields told them that there really was such a place. To placate
them he added the word 'Cat' to the script, and the "Black Pussy _Cat_
Cafe" seemed to appease the righteous ones. Then, in utter defiance,
Fields called it "The Black Pussy" or the "Black Pussy Cafe" throughout
the film.
In an earlier film _International_House_ (1933), Fields sets up a gag
that can't be anything but salacious; it makes no sense otherwise. In
the scene, Fields' female companion says something is under her and she's
"sitting on something," to which Fields responds, "Ah, a pussy." He then
proceeds to lift a cat from the seat.
Fields' legendary battles with the censors caused him to sometimes be quite
obscure when putting sexual double entendres into his scripts. Because of Mae
West's reputation, the censors were on their toes more than usual for the film
_My_Little_Chickadee_, which she and Fields made together. Thus, it's filled
with such obscure gems.
There is no doubt that Fields was the originator of the exclamation, "great
googly-moogly" as a Bowdlerized version of "Great God Almighty!"
--
Orne Batmagoo
Mark Brader
> Fields' legendary battles with the censors caused him to sometimes be quite
And sometimes he wasn't so obscure. "Never Give a Sucker an Even Break"
(1941), in which Fields plays himself, has a scene set in a milk bar.
[Remember milk bars?] Early in the scene he steps briefly out of the
character of himself, so to speak, by turning to the camera and informing
the audience: "This scene's supposed to be in a saloon, but the censor
cut it out. It'll play just as well this way." He's telling the truth.
The scene is then played more or less just as it must have been originally
written, only with milk replacing beer.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto, m...@vex.net
Irving Thalberg's advice on GONE WITH THE WIND:
"Forget it, Louis. No Civil War picture ever made a nickel."
My text in this article is in the public domain.
Richard Fontana
> And sometimes he wasn't so obscure. "Never Give a Sucker an Even Break"
> (1941), in which Fields plays himself, has a scene set in a milk bar.
> [Remember milk bars?]
No, I'm unfamiliar with the term. A Google search suggests that the term
"milk bar" is in very common use in Australia and New Zealand, where
context suggests it may be akin to the American deli, corner grocery
store, old-fashioned general store, or suburbanoid convenience store.
Comments?
RF
Carol Salisbury
> No, I'm unfamiliar with the term. A Google search suggests that the term
> "milk bar" is in very common use in Australia and New Zealand, where
> context suggests it may be akin to the American deli, corner grocery
> store, old-fashioned general store, or suburbanoid convenience store.
> Comments?
>
> RF
>
I think it varies. Certainly in South Australia where I was brought up
those things were not called milk bars but delis. I know other states
differ. (I have a feeling they are called milk bars in Victoria, I'm sure
another reader can confirm.) My husband, who is from North Island in New
Zealand, always calls them milk bars.
Carol Salisbury
Carmen L. Abruzzi
----------
In article <JyiU4.14$GC4.3...@news0.optus.net.au>, "Carol
Salisbury" <daff...@dynamite.com.au> wrote:
But do people actually order milk by the glass and drink it in
the establishment, as one would with an alcoholic drink at a
regular bar? Like they did in "A Clockwork Orange". Only I
think there was something else in the milk in that case.
Richard Fontana
> I was surprised to find that so many people don't know what milk bars
> are. In the eastern states of Australia you'll find them all over
> the place. And no, they're not the same as general stores. They're
> more like cafes. They have tables where you can sit down, and they
> sell ice creams, milk shakes, and the like. These days they also
> tend to sell things like coffee. Most of them have food available,
> although the choice tends to be rather limited: sandwiches, meat
> pies, that sort of thing. If they take their sandwiches seriously,
> they're likely to drop the term "milk bar" and move on to a more
> up-market name. In the seedier areas of town, they move down-market
> instead and start selling hamburgers.
>
> They must have existed in the USA at some stage, because I've
> seen one in "Happy Days".
You mean Arnold's Drive-In? Presided over by Arnold (Pat Morita, who left
and later turned up in _The Karate Kid_) and later by Al Molinaro (a
veteran of _The Odd Couple_)?
I would describe Arnold's as something close to a "diner" or a
"coffeeshop" as those terms are known in my part of the world, though I
now see that they don't work perfectly. Though it was called a drive-in,
much of the internal action of the show took place inside Arnold's.
Arnold's had a rather large space and a hidden kitchen (unlike a diner),
and teenagers would go there to eat hamburgers, drink milkshakes, and
listen to Richie Cunningham music on the jukebox.
In modern-day suburbanoid Midwesternified America, there are a lot
of "family restaurant" semi-fast-food chains that come close to this sort
of model too.
> I have the impression that pharmacies
> took over their function, because of some legal technicality
> over whether they were allowed to open at weekends.
Hmm. There's also the traditional "drug store" (in bygone rural America),
and the "malt shop" and "fountain shop" now generally encountered
only in vintage Archie comics and things like that. This may be closer to
your milk bar.
Arnold's on Happy Days was the sort of place that had to close in the
early '70s due to competition from chains like Denny's, Friendly's, etc.
Not that there's anything wrong with that.
RF
Dennis Bathory-Kitsz
>
> They must have existed in the USA at some stage, because I've
> seen one in "Happy Days".
Where I'm from (Northeast U.S.), those were soda fountains or malt
shops, mostly gone now. Luncheonettes still serve the function in some
towns (Dave's in lower Manhattan was great -- the best egg cream ever --
but it's been closed for at least a decade). Diners are a little more
general, but still might advertise a soda fountain.
But most of the soda fountains have gone the way of drive-in movies and
curb service.
Dennis
...who seeks out diners for their pies
Peter Moylan
>
>> No, I'm unfamiliar with the term. A Google search suggests that the term
>> "milk bar" is in very common use in Australia and New Zealand, where
>> context suggests it may be akin to the American deli, corner grocery
>> store, old-fashioned general store, or suburbanoid convenience store.
>> Comments?
>
>those things were not called milk bars but delis. I know other states
>differ. (I have a feeling they are called milk bars in Victoria, I'm sure
>another reader can confirm.) My husband, who is from North Island in New
>Zealand, always calls them milk bars.
I was surprised to find that so many people don't know what milk bars
are. In the eastern states of Australia you'll find them all over
the place. And no, they're not the same as general stores. They're
more like cafes. They have tables where you can sit down, and they
sell ice creams, milk shakes, and the like. These days they also
tend to sell things like coffee. Most of them have food available,
although the choice tends to be rather limited: sandwiches, meat
pies, that sort of thing. If they take their sandwiches seriously,
they're likely to drop the term "milk bar" and move on to a more
up-market name. In the seedier areas of town, they move down-market
instead and start selling hamburgers.
They must have existed in the USA at some stage, because I've
seen one in "Happy Days". I have the impression that pharmacies
took over their function, because of some legal technicality
over whether they were allowed to open at weekends.
--
Peter Moylan pe...@ee.newcastle.edu.au
See http://eepjm.newcastle.edu.au for OS/2 information and software
Mark Brader
> In the eastern states of Australia you'll find them all over
> the place. And no, they're not the same as general stores. They're
> more like cafes. They have tables where you can sit down, and they
> sell ice creams, milk shakes, and the like. These days they also
> tend to sell things like coffee. Most of them have food available,
> They must have existed in the USA at some stage, because I've
> seen one in "Happy Days".
And indeed, this is about what's depicted in that W.C. Fields scene.
I only ever remember encountering one of them myself: that was in
Guelph, Ontario, Canada, when I was living there circa 1965, and I
think it was actually on the premises of a dairy.
> I have the impression that pharmacies took over their function...
If you substitute carbonated soft drinks for the milk in the above
description, you're talking about a "soda fountain", yes? I understand
that these were indeed common in pharmacies at one time; today the fast
food restaurant seems to fill that, to coin a term, economological niche.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "If any form of pleasure is exhibited, report
m...@vex.net | to me and it will be prohibited." --DUCK SOUP
Lea V. Usin
> I only ever remember encountering one of them myself: that was in
> Guelph, Ontario, Canada, when I was living there circa 1965, and I
> think it was actually on the premises of a dairy.
I passed one every day on the way to high school during the early sixties
in Toronto, and it too was attached to a dairy.
More recently, before a visit, I read that Tallinn, Estonia, was famous
for its milk bars. I had no idea what to expect, but as others have
described, they turned out to be mostly ice cream parlours, with a small
selection of other dairy products as well.
Cheers, Lea
--
Lea V. Usin
ac...@ncf.ca
Carol Salisbury
Carmen L. Abruzzi <Abr...@some.org> wrote in message
news:8fsjj6$4nn$1...@mark.ucdavis.edu...
>
> ----------
> In article <JyiU4.14$GC4.3...@news0.optus.net.au>, "Carol
> Salisbury" <daff...@dynamite.com.au> wrote:
>
>
> >
> >> No, I'm unfamiliar with the term. A Google search suggests that the
> >term
> >> "milk bar" is in very common use in Australia and New Zealand, where
> >> context suggests it may be akin to the American deli, corner grocery
> >> store, old-fashioned general store, or suburbanoid convenience store.
> >> Comments?
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I think it varies. Certainly in South Australia where I was brought up
> >those things were not called milk bars but delis. I know other states
> >differ. (I have a feeling they are called milk bars in Victoria, I'm
> >sure
> >another reader can confirm.) My husband, who is from North Island in New
> >Zealand, always calls them milk bars.
> >
> the establishment, as one would with an alcoholic drink at a
> regular bar? Like they did in "A Clockwork Orange". Only I
> think there was something else in the milk in that case.
No, they don't. They are places where you can buy litres of milk, as well
as bread, soft drinks, confectionery - mostly for consumption off the
premises. They are convenience shops with extended opening hours. Really
they bear no resemblance to an alcohol-type bar, the name is obviously a
relic of some earlier type of establishment.
Carol Salisbury
mag...@rahul.net
wrote:
>Carol Salisbury <daff...@dynamite.com.au> wrote:
>>
>>> No, I'm unfamiliar with the term. A Google search suggests that the term
>>> "milk bar" is in very common use in Australia and New Zealand, where
>>> context suggests it may be akin to the American deli, corner grocery
>>> store, old-fashioned general store, or suburbanoid convenience store.
>>> Comments?
>>
>>I think it varies. Certainly in South Australia where I was brought up
>>those things were not called milk bars but delis. I know other states
>>differ. (I have a feeling they are called milk bars in Victoria, I'm sure
>>another reader can confirm.) My husband, who is from North Island in New
>>Zealand, always calls them milk bars.
>
>I was surprised to find that so many people don't know what milk bars
>are. In the eastern states of Australia you'll find them all over
>the place. And no, they're not the same as general stores. They're
>more like cafes. They have tables where you can sit down, and they
>sell ice creams, milk shakes, and the like. These days they also
>tend to sell things like coffee. Most of them have food available,
>although the choice tends to be rather limited: sandwiches, meat
>pies, that sort of thing. If they take their sandwiches seriously,
>they're likely to drop the term "milk bar" and move on to a more
>up-market name. In the seedier areas of town, they move down-market
>instead and start selling hamburgers.
>
>They must have existed in the USA at some stage, because I've
>seen one in "Happy Days". I have the impression that pharmacies
>took over their function, because of some legal technicality
>over whether they were allowed to open at weekends.
The one depicted in Happy Days would be called a "malt shop" in the US.
James Follett
<slrn8i3pn...@eepjm.newcastle.edu.au>
pe...@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au "Peter Moylan" wrote:
>I was surprised to find that so many people don't know what milk bars
>are. In the eastern states of Australia you'll find them all over
>the place. And no, they're not the same as general stores. They're
>more like cafes. They have tables where you can sit down, and they
>sell ice creams, milk shakes, and the like.
This is an accurate description of milk bars that flourished in
English towns in the 1940s and 1950s. There was a chain of them
called "Black and White Milk Bars" on account of their black
and white decor: marbled floors, table tops, and bars top of black
and white marble. There were few choices of milk shake flavouring:
raspberry and cherry. In those days England was a major producer of
cherries (before bullfinches) therefore market stalls were groaning
under mountains of them in the summer. B&W cherry milk shakes tended
to be all cherry and not much milk. Coffee milkshakes contained more
milk and were 2d extra. The coffee flavour was achieved with a squirt
of "Camp" chicory essense.
They also sold "creme" buns containing ersatz cream.
The British taste for wartime and immediate post-war ersatz foods
has never gone away. Bottles of Camp are still available; in
supermarkets the space assigned to the display of synthetic ice
cream is greater than that for ice cream, and Cadbury still make
quite dreadful ersatz chocolate.
One reason for this is the remarkable flexibility of EU regulations
regarding food labelling. On many occasions Britain has negotiated
waivers so that food manufacturers can continue mislabelling. Ice
cream doesn't have to contain dairy cream; chocolate doesn't have
to be chocolate; baked beans don't have to be baked and the maker
doesn't have to say what type of beans are used or where they come
from.
The list is depressingly long and getting longer, with food
manufacturers being cheered on by the tabloid press. "Hands off
our chocolate!" The result is that when German supermarkets open
in the UK (Lidl/Aldi) with extensive sourcing from Europe,
British shoppers are astonished at just how cheap good food can
be. A 1 litre carton of real Italian ice cream cost GBP 1.49 in
Lidl -- almost double what Tesco charge for "premium" ice cream.
--
James Follett -- novelist http://www.davew.demon.co.uk
Marion Gevers
>>They must have existed in the USA at some stage, because I've
>>seen one in "Happy Days". I have the impression that pharmacies
>>took over their function, because of some legal technicality
>>over whether they were allowed to open at weekends.
>
>The one depicted in Happy Days would be called a "malt shop" in the US.
That rings a bell. Actually, I have a strong suspicion that our milk bar
has much in common with the US drugstore soda fountain; though I can't
be sure of that, because I've never seen a soda fountain.
You'll notice that the two Australians contributing to this thread seem
to have distinctly different definitions of the term "milk bar". The sort
of shop Carol is talking about is what I'd call a convenience store, or
corner grocery, or general store, or something like that. This could be
because we're from different states. It could also be because the
small neighbourhood grocery shop is trying to do a bit of everything,
in a last-gasp attempt to survive the competition from the big
shopping complexes. The lines are blurring. More and more often
I've seen such shops carrying the sign "mixed business". I've just
taken a look in the yellow pages of my phone book, and there seems
to be only a handful of places still calling themselves milk bars.
Meanwhile, I've changed my mind about what I saw in "Happy Days".
It seems to me that Arnold's establishment is a bit closer to what
I, in my formative years, knew as the All Nita. In a small town
(population 4000) there weren't a lot of places for the kids to hang
out, but the All Nita was where we went after a night at the
pictures. (Movies, for you foreigners.) It was an adjunct to a
petrol station near the edge of town, its main function was to sell
coffee and reheated pasties to long-distance truckies, and its big
attraction for adolescents was that it had a juke box. Such places
still exist wherever a major highway runs through a small
country town. I'm pretty sure they still exist in the US, too,
because I've seen the freeway signs saying "Gas food". If it sells
gas food, it's a cousin to our All Nita.
I haven't seen a juke box for a few years, though. I wonder
where they all went.
--
Peter Moylan
N.Mitchum
------
> I was surprised to find that so many people don't know what milk bars
> sell ice creams, milk shakes, and the like. These days they also
>
> They must have existed in the USA at some stage, because I've
> seen one in "Happy Days". I have the impression that pharmacies
> took over their function, because of some legal technicality
> over whether they were allowed to open at weekends.
I've only heard of milk bars -- never seen one, never heard a
definition. You seem to be describing an American "soda
fountain," which often shows up in films of, say, 1930-1960, as a
long counter serving non-alcoholic refreshements to freckled,
clean-cut highschool kids. They're typically part of a drugstore.
The guy behind the counter wears a white cap and is known as a
"soda jerk." (I just remembered that the druggist who employed
George Bailey in *It's a Wonderful Life* had a soda fountain in
his shop. You've seen it?)
----NM
Skitt
Peter Moylan <pe...@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> wrote in message
news:slrn8i3pn...@eepjm.newcastle.edu.au...
>
> I was surprised to find that so many people don't know what milk bars
> the place. And no, they're not the same as general stores. They're
> sell ice creams, milk shakes, and the like. These days they also
> tend to sell things like coffee. Most of them have food available,
> pies, that sort of thing. If they take their sandwiches seriously,
> they're likely to drop the term "milk bar" and move on to a more
> up-market name. In the seedier areas of town, they move down-market
> instead and start selling hamburgers.
>
> seen one in "Happy Days". I have the impression that pharmacies
> took over their function, because of some legal technicality
> over whether they were allowed to open at weekends.
What you describe sounds like the "Fifth Street Creamery" which was
kitty-corner from our house in San Jose at Santa Clara and 5th Streets. It
was basically an ice cream and soda fountain with a few other munchies
available for on-site consumption as well as carry-out. Long gone, though,
as is the house we lived in. After all, that was in 1950.
--
Skitt http://i.am/skitt/
Some mornings it's just not worth chewing through
the leather straps. -- Emo Phillips
GrapeApe
Robert Lieblich
[ . . . ]
> Arnold's on Happy Days was the sort of place that had to close in the
> early '70s due to competition from chains like Denny's, Friendly's, etc.
> Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Actually, RF, there *is* something wrong with that.
On trips with the kids when they were young enough to deign to travel
with us, my wife and I tried assiduously not to eat in chain emporia.
In the last few years (early 80's) it became quite difficult to do so.
The homogenization of the American highway was in its last phases by
then, and you could pass half a dozen Denny's before encountering
something local. And most of the locals were so fatigued, if not
starved, by fighting off the chain competition that eating there had
ceased, for the most part, to be worth the effort.
There most definitely is something wrong with that . . . unless you want
to eat the same thing everywhere you go.
Robert Lieblich
>
> Is a Dairy a Non-Kosher Deli?
Just in case this is a serious question . . .
There are kosher dairy stores. Israel has lots of them. Ratner's on
Houston Street in New York is quite well known. To my knowledge they
aren't called delis, however. Delis sell meat.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Richard Fontana wrote:
>
> > Arnold's on Happy Days was the sort of place that had to close in
> > the early '70s due to competition from chains like Denny's,
> > Friendly's, etc. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
>
> Actually, RF, there *is* something wrong with that.
>
> On trips with the kids when they were young enough to deign to
> travel with us, my wife and I tried assiduously not to eat in chain
> emporia. In the last few years (early 80's) it became quite
> difficult to do so. The homogenization of the American highway was
> in its last phases by then, and you could pass half a dozen Denny's
> before encountering something local.
Yeah, but that took what, half an hour?
> And most of the locals were so fatigued, if not starved, by fighting
> off the chain competition that eating there had ceased, for the most
> part, to be worth the effort.
>
> There most definitely is something wrong with that . . . unless you
> want to eat the same thing everywhere you go.
I can go either way on this argument. On the one hand, it is great to
eat in new places. On the other, there is something to be said for
the predictability of known quantities. You're unlikely to have a
surprisingly good meal at a Denny's. You're also unlikely to have a
surprisingly bad one. Sometimes that's what you want. Sometimes it
isn't. I haven't done much long-distance travelling by car lately
(more than from the Bay Area to LA or Napa), but I don't recall it
being hard to either find or avoid chain restaurants.
Then, of course, there's the argument that the restaurants that
survive the competition with the chains must have something going for
them, typically either quality or local fare.
I've always found it somewhat amusing, though, that many of the same
people who denigrate the sameness of national chains will pick up a
_New York Times_ or tune into CNN rather than turn to the local paper
or TV station and will pick a chain hotel/motel over an unknown
quantity.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |The whole idea of our government is
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |this: if enough people get together
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |and act in concert, they can take
|something and not pay for it.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com | P.J. O'Rourke
(650)857-7572
Perchprism
>From: "N.Mitchum" aj...@lafn.org
>Date: 5/17/00 2:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <3922EC...@lafn.org>
>
>Peter Moylan wrote:
>------
>> I was surprised to find that so many people don't know what milk bars
>> sell ice creams, milk shakes, and the like. These days they also
>>
>> They must have existed in the USA at some stage, because I've
>> seen one in "Happy Days". I have the impression that pharmacies
>> took over their function, because of some legal technicality
>> over whether they were allowed to open at weekends.
>
>I've only heard of milk bars -- never seen one, never heard a
>definition. You seem to be describing an American "soda
>fountain," which often shows up in films of, say, 1930-1960, as a
>long counter serving non-alcoholic refreshements to freckled,
>clean-cut highschool kids. They're typically part of a drugstore.
>The guy behind the counter wears a white cap and is known as a
>"soda jerk." (I just remembered that the druggist who employed
>George Bailey in *It's a Wonderful Life* had a soda fountain in
>his shop. You've seen it?)
I'm glad this thread got started, because among the million little unanswered
questions I have has always been how milk got into "Clockwork Orange."
There used to be a place around here called the "Cowtail Bar, " which was a big
ice-cream parlour. I never thought they called it "Bar" because of any
resemblance to a booze bar, nor to suggest a resemblance. I wonder now whether
they themselves didn't think of it as a milk bar back when it was founded,
though "milk bar" is nonsense here now.
--
Perchprism
(southern New Jersey, near Philadelphia)
Alex Chernavsky
>I'm glad this thread got started, because among
>the million little unanswered questions I have has
>always been how milk got into "Clockwork Orange."
Burgess called it "moloko-plus", with "moloko" being the Russian word for
milk, and the "plus" presumably referring to some added psychoactive
ingredient. The place that served moloko-plus was called the Korova Milk
Bar. "Korova" means "cow" in Russian.
--
Alex Chernavsky
al...@astrocyte-design.com
Truly Donovan
Moylan) wrote:
>I was surprised to find that so many people don't know what milk bars
>are. In the eastern states of Australia you'll find them all over
>the place. And no, they're not the same as general stores. They're
>more like cafes. They have tables where you can sit down, and they
>sell ice creams, milk shakes, and the like. These days they also
>tend to sell things like coffee. Most of them have food available,
>although the choice tends to be rather limited: sandwiches, meat
>pies, that sort of thing. If they take their sandwiches seriously,
>they're likely to drop the term "milk bar" and move on to a more
>up-market name. In the seedier areas of town, they move down-market
>instead and start selling hamburgers.
>
>They must have existed in the USA at some stage, because I've
>seen one in "Happy Days". I have the impression that pharmacies
>took over their function, because of some legal technicality
>over whether they were allowed to open at weekends.
They sound like what was known in earlier days as a soda fountain, to
be found most often as an adjunct to a pharmacy. The clerks were known
as "soda jerks." They still existed in my teenage years (50s), but
were already on their way out.
I was talking to a friend of mine the other day who teaches
ten-year-olds; she seemed dismayed that her class wasn't interested in
the idea of having banana splits for some upcoming celebration. It
then occurred to me that these children, raised on McDonald's
"shakes," probably had no idea what a banana split might be.
--
Truly Donovan
tr...@lunemere.com
*Chandler's Daughter* [Write Way Publishing, Jan 2000]
GrapeApe
Hmm I probably should have kept kosher status out of it.
So what is the difference between a dairy and and a deli?
In New York City, a Dairy can be something very much like a Delicatessan, but I
am sure there is some distinction related to the name.
In rural America, a Dairy is a factory where milk is taken for processing, not
a retail emporium for foodstuffs.
Truly Donovan
<lieb...@erols.com> wrote:
>There most definitely is something wrong with that . . . unless you want
>to eat the same thing everywhere you go.
Remembering some of the gustatory delights of my pre-Interstate trip
cross-country, sometimes Wendy's doesn't sound like such a bad idea.
Charles Riggs
<tru...@attglobal.net> wrote:
>They sound like what was known in earlier days as a soda fountain, to
>be found most often as an adjunct to a pharmacy. The clerks were known
>as "soda jerks." They still existed in my teenage years (50s), but
>were already on their way out.
Soda jerks they were, but I wouldn't call them "clerks". Would you
call a waiter or a cook a clerk? I don't think so.
Charles Riggs
Richard Fontana
They weren't called "pop jerks" in the Midwest, were they?
RF
Richard Fontana
> >> Is a Dairy a Non-Kosher Deli?
> >
> >Just in case this is a serious question . . .
> >
> >There are kosher dairy stores. Israel has lots of them. Ratner's on
> >Houston Street in New York is quite well known. To my knowledge they
> >aren't called delis, however. Delis sell meat.
>
> Hmm I probably should have kept kosher status out of it.
> So what is the difference between a dairy and and a deli?
>
> In New York City, a Dairy can be something very much like a Delicatessan, but I
> am sure there is some distinction related to the name.
No, you're thinking (I think) of a "dairy *restaurant*".
There's nothing like what you're talking about called a "dairy". If my
understanding is correct, "dairy restaurants", traditionally run by
Ashkenazic Jewish proprietors, are bona fide sit-down restaurants
that are conceptually similar to the generic coffee-shop or
diner, and offer all sorts of food, such as blintzes, smoked fish,
various egg dishes, etc., but no meat dishes per se
of the sort that are made available in a traditional kosher sort of
delicatessen. It may be that these places are also called "dairy stores",
of the sort described by R. Lipton, or that that refers to a similar but
non-sit-down sort of place.
It should also be noted that the term "deli" is much broader in meaning
than I think you are implying.
> In rural America, a Dairy is a factory where milk is taken for processing, not
> a retail emporium for foodstuffs.
I think this is one of the generally understood meanings of "dairy"
everywhere, the other being the more traditional
non-mass-production "dairy" farm or "dairy" in the sense of "place where
you keep milk, butter, cheese". In New York city, as I think I mentioned
in another posting, and perhaps elsewhere, it's common for a certain class
of small grocery stores to have the terms "milk" or
"dairy" in their proper name, often also with the evocative word "farm",
but these places aren't called "dairies".
RF
Perchprism
>From: "Alex Chernavsky" al...@astrocyte-design.com
>Date: 5/17/00 11:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <VkJU4.4793$Rx3.2...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com>
Alex, is that you? Healed up nicely, I trust?
I dream in Nadsat, but I hadn't known that "korova" was "cow." Thanks. Still,
milk seems a tame base for an ultra-violent droogie's beverage, does it not, O
my brother?
Evan Kirshenbaum
> On Thu, 18 May 2000, Charles Riggs wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 18 May 2000 00:09:36 -0600, Truly Donovan
> > <tru...@attglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> > >They sound like what was known in earlier days as a soda
> > >fountain, to be found most often as an adjunct to a pharmacy. The
> > >clerks were known as "soda jerks." They still existed in my
> > >teenage years (50s), but were already on their way out.
> >
> > Soda jerks they were, but I wouldn't call them "clerks". Would you
> > call a waiter or a cook a clerk? I don't think so.
>
> They weren't called "pop jerks" in the Midwest, were they?
Why would they be? They served (ice cream) sodas, at least as far as
we were concerned. I ordered an ice cream soda last month at a
Baskin-Robbins, and the kid had to ask his manager how it was made.
Sigh.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Politicians are like compost--they
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |should be turned often or they start
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |to smell bad.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> They sound like what was known in earlier days as a soda fountain,
> to be found most often as an adjunct to a pharmacy. The clerks were
> known as "soda jerks." They still existed in my teenage years (50s),
> but were already on their way out.
I'm pretty sure there was a working soda fountain attached to one of
the pharmacies in my home town (Deerfield) when I was in high school
(late '70s, early '80s), although it wasn't a popular hangout for us.
I don't think I've seen one since then.
> I was talking to a friend of mine the other day who teaches
> ten-year-olds; she seemed dismayed that her class wasn't interested
> in the idea of having banana splits for some upcoming
> celebration. It then occurred to me that these children, raised on
> McDonald's "shakes," probably had no idea what a banana split might
> be.
I'm not sure you can blame McDonald's. There are plenty of decent ice
cream places out there, including some of the chains (Swensen's,
Baskin-Robbins, Haagen Dazs). There are also some great non-chains.[1]
[1] Those on the Peninsula should check out Rick's Rather Rich Ice
Cream in Mountain View, a hole-in-the-wall that has quite probably
the best ice cream I've ever tasted. The "rather rich" refers to
the butterfat content, which is substantially higher than your
normal "super-premium" ice cream. He told us[2] that he had tried
to use a higher butterfat content, but that the ice cream had
turned to butter in the machine.
[2] Rick mans the shop himself and makes the ice cream himself. He
holds two degrees in ice cream and will happily talk about its
manufacture while you eat. He'll also give you free tastes of
anything on his large, ever-changing, and sometimes bizarre menu.
The big fancy sundaes like banana splits just seem to be less popular
these days, perhaps because they have gotten relatively expensive.
Of course, when I was growing up, we split our ice cream treats
between big sundaes at Swensen's (or a local equivalent) and
soft-serve cones at Carvelle.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |We never met anyone who believed in
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |fortune cookies. That's astounding.
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |Belief in the precognitive powers
|of an Asian pastry is really no
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |wackier than belief in ESP,
(650)857-7572 |sublaxation, or astrology, but you
|just don't hear anyone preaching
|Scientific Cookie-ism.
| Penn and Teller
Richard Fontana
Maggie Davis, an author of what I think would be classified as historical
romance novels, under the pen-name Katherine Deauxville, used the term
"milk bar" in her novel _Stage Door Canteen_, which is excerpted on her
website, <http://www.maggiedavis.com/> (which I found via a Google
search). She has granted me permission to quote the following response to
my emailed inquiry about the term "milk bar". I believe her knowledge is
based on research.
=== quotation ===
As far as I have been able to find out "milk bar" was in common use during
WW2 when USO canteens and other service organizations featured a "bar"
with milk, chocolate milk, cookies and ice cream, because they were
forbidden to serve alcoholic beverages to U.S. forces. However, the term
"bar" had a certain appeal to the GIs, and apparently was widely used.
"Milk bar" may date back to the Thirties, when "malt shops," and "ice
cream parlors," and confectionaries (New York's candy stores with soda
fountain and the notorious "egg creams") were found to a much greater
extent than they are today. I believe church socials in the Thirties
offered "milk bars" at teen dances.
=== end of quotation ===
RF
Richard Fontana
> Truly Donovan <tru...@attglobal.net> writes:
> >
> > I was talking to a friend of mine the other day who teaches
> > ten-year-olds; she seemed dismayed that her class wasn't interested
> > in the idea of having banana splits for some upcoming
> > celebration. It then occurred to me that these children, raised on
> > McDonald's "shakes," probably had no idea what a banana split might
> > be.
>
> I'm not sure you can blame McDonald's. There are plenty of decent ice
> cream places out there, including some of the chains (Swensen's,
> Baskin-Robbins, Haagen Dazs). There are also some great non-chains.[1]
[...]
> The big fancy sundaes like banana splits just seem to be less popular
> these days, perhaps because they have gotten relatively expensive.
> Of course, when I was growing up, we split our ice cream treats
> between big sundaes at Swensen's (or a local equivalent) and
> soft-serve cones at Carvelle.
I agree that there must have been a gradual shift in taste with respect to
preferred varieties of ice-cream-based foods.
When I was a child in New York in the '70s, the banana split was an item
of great cultural importance, yet I think I only rarely if ever had one.
It wasn't regarded as an archaic thing, and presumably could be had in a
traditional ice-cream parlour (which places were gradually
disappearing), but I do think that it was an older generation that really
venerated it. The banana split was something you'd hear about but would
never eat. More standard forms of sundaes were still frequently eaten,
though the decline of the ice-cream parlour made this increasingly
difficult. Truly Donovan mentions the McDonald's shake, but it should be
noted that, for many years at least, McDonald's offered something
rather horrible which they called a "sundae".
Looking back on my life, I see now that my parents, born in the early
1930s, always had an intense degree of interest in sundaes which was never
quite shared by their children. Already when we were kids interest was
shifting away from the sundae and towards more minimalist forms of ice
cream. I don't think this should be associated with the partial decline
of sweet-toothedness, which seemed to be a later cultural development, but
I think that younger people were interested in the taste of the ice cream
proper, untouched by "hot fudge" and similar materials. The generational
difference was apparent during the early 1980s, when my brother was an
undergraduate at MIT. When we were in the Boston area, my mother always
wanted to go to Cabot's, which was a place that specialized in large
traditional sundaes, frappes, etc., while my brother argued
energetically that such places had low-quality ice cream which was being
masked by the hot fudge, bananas, etc.; he urged us to go to Toscanini's
instead.
RF
GrapeApe
>There's nothing like what you're talking about called a "dairy".
Hmm....
I think it was in the Elliot Gould film "Over the Brooklyn Bridge" in which
both signage of the restaurant and dialogue repeatedly referred to a "dairy",
in much the same way many say, "Lets go to the Deli," rather than "Lets go to
the Delicatessan Restaurant"
The writer Arnold Somkin died a couple of years before the film was released,
but I trust that dialog as representing some semblance of reality, that the
Brooklyn characters called such a restaurant a "dairy".
So apparently the difference is that a Deli sells Beef where as a Dairy does
not? Does a Dairy only have fish, and no chicken?
GrapeApe
They weren't called Coke jerks in the south, either.
Robert Lieblich
A kosher dairy (restaurant or not) would not sell chicken, because all
fowl counts as meat.
When I moved to the Northern Virginia suburbs of Washington, D.C., some
three-decades-and-more ago, "delicatessen" meant "beer joint." There
was no liquor by the drink in Virginia back then. Most beer joints
served something they insisted was food, and it did vaguely resemble
standard bar food. I never heard of one serving much of anything that
you'd find in a delicatessen anywhere else. To my knowledge,
"delicatessen" is no longer used around here to mean beer joint.
Richard Fontana
> > They weren't called "pop jerks" in the Midwest, were they?
>
> They weren't called Coke jerks in the south, either.
From this we can conclude that they weren't called "tonic jerks" in
New England.
RF
Richard Fontana
> >No, you're thinking (I think) of a "dairy *restaurant*".
> >There's nothing like what you're talking about called a "dairy".
>
> Hmm....
>
> I think it was in the Elliot Gould film "Over the Brooklyn Bridge" in which
> both signage of the restaurant and dialogue repeatedly referred to a "dairy",
> in much the same way many say, "Lets go to the Deli," rather than "Lets go to
> the Delicatessan Restaurant"
>
> The writer Arnold Somkin died a couple of years before the film was released,
> but I trust that dialog as representing some semblance of reality, that the
> Brooklyn characters called such a restaurant a "dairy".
If so, it can't have been a very widely-used term. Of course Brooklyn was
and is a very big place, so it's difficult to generalize. I still suspect
that "dairy" would be a nonstandard, highly locale-specific (as to
neighborhood and perhaps particular restaurant). It's certainly not like
"deli", which is "deli" in standard speech. It would be like shortening
"Chinese restaurant" to "Chinese". "We're gonna get takeout from the
Chinese". Quite possible, but hardly standard.
As far as signage goes, I don't think I've seen dairy restaurants use
"dairy" without the "restaurant" being there, explicitly or otherwise.
Think of a coffeeshop: it could very well have a sign that just said
"Coffee", with no "shop".
RF
Richard Fontana
> Did New England call it tonic when it was only soda? Or are you referring to
> 'moxie'?
"Tonic" was New England for what I call "soda", which is for me (sort
of by definition) the primary meaning of "soda" ("only soda" doesn't
really mean anything to me, but I guess you mean "plain carbonated
water"). "Moxie" was a particular brand/flavor of soda [tonic], a close
relative to root beer.
[...]
> Anyway, the jerks were jerking soda. Not pop. Not soda with syrup flavoring,
> but plain old carbonated water.
Oh, you mean seltzer.
RF
GrapeApe
>>
>> They weren't called Coke jerks in the south, either.
>
>From this we can conclude that they weren't called "tonic jerks" in
>New England.
Did New England call it tonic when it was only soda? Or are you referring to
'moxie'?
In the south, it was not too uncommon to hear "what kind?" when you ask for a
Coke. And they didnt mean Cherry Coke or Diet Coke either, the other choices
may have been Sprite. Coke was used a bit generically for soft drinks, but
particularly for Colas. You would be given a Pepsi or a Double Cola or an RC
if thats all that was available when requesting a Coke.
GrapeApe
>> but plain old carbonated water.
>
I originally typed seltzer. Were you peeking?
I backed out of seltzer because there are some schools of thought that say
seltzer has certain mineral content, carbonated water isnt necessarily seltzer,
seltzer isnt necessarily soda.
Richard Fontana
To me, seltzer is actually something that is bottled or canned and sold
commercially as a beverage, and is not (for at least that reason) the same
thing as plain old minimalist carbonated water. So, for example, it is
quite appropriate, in my view, for Coca Cola to list as one of its
ingredients "carbonated water". It would be quite wrong for them to claim
instead that this ingredient is "seltzer", and it might be correct but
confusing for them to call it "soda water".
The issue of whether seltzer is different from club soda, and why, was
discussed on AUE several months ago.
RF
Charles Riggs
<lieb...@erols.com> wrote:
>When I moved to the Northern Virginia suburbs of Washington, D.C., some
>three-decades-and-more ago, "delicatessen" meant "beer joint."
Now you're getting into my time frame. Which particular beer joint was
called this? I never recall hearing that usage. Actually, I don't
recall, unfortunately, seeing any true delis in Northern Virginia
because few Jews lived there. Hopefully, times have changed and
Virginia has become less backward and more Marylandized. Back to the
subject, weren't beer joints which served a minimum of food called
"Raw Bars" in Virginia back then?
> There
>was no liquor by the drink in Virginia back then. Most beer joints
>served something they insisted was food, and it did vaguely resemble
>standard bar food. I never heard of one serving much of anything that
>you'd find in a delicatessen anywhere else. To my knowledge,
>"delicatessen" is no longer used around here to mean beer joint.
By the way, we don't have delis in Ireland at all -- not *real* delis.
Charles Riggs
Stephen Toogood
<ev...@garrett.hpl.hp.com> writes
>I'm not sure you can blame McDonald's. There are plenty of decent ice
>cream places out there, including some of the chains (Swensen's,
>Baskin-Robbins, Haagen Dazs). There are also some great non-chains.[1]
>
> Cream in Mountain View, a hole-in-the-wall that has quite probably
> the best ice cream I've ever tasted. The "rather rich" refers to
> the butterfat content, which is substantially higher than your
> normal "super-premium" ice cream. He told us[2] that he had tried
> to use a higher butterfat content, but that the ice cream had
> turned to butter in the machine.
>
>[2] Rick mans the shop himself and makes the ice cream himself. He
> holds two degrees in ice cream
At two degrees wouldn't it melt?
Oh, Fahrenheit of course.
This thread has fascinated me as a disinterested observer, because it
highlights how much more important culturally ice cream is on the other
side of the pond. Most of the stuff sold in the UK is complete dross, as
I expect most of yours is, mostly due to governmental refusal to
regulate the term 'ice cream'. Hoffentlich the EC will force us to.
Attempts to open US-style parlors over here have never really taken off.
The best chain I found (and they don't seem to be around any more) was
Canadian (Laura Seccord).
Your description of Rick and his business is tempting me to start saving
for the air fare. Where's 'the Peninsular?'
--
Stephen Toogood
Alfred Armstrong
> <snip>
> It would be like shortening
> "Chinese restaurant" to "Chinese". "We're gonna get takeout from the
> Chinese". Quite possible, but hardly standard.
Actually this side of the great water, it _is_standard. 'We're going to
the Chinese', 'We're going for an Indian'. Sit in any pub on a Friday
night here, and you'll hear such phrases chorussed from every side.
--
Alfred Armstrong
http://www.oddbooks.co.uk/
"Christ goes deeper than I do, but I have had a wider experience" -
Frank Harris
Alex Chernavsky
>Those on the Peninsula should check out Rick's Rather Rich Ice
>Cream in Mountain View
Are there still a lot of FroYo [1] places in and around Palo Alto?
When I used to live there (early 1990s), you couldn't turn around without
hitting one of those shops. Actually, the quality of the product was
surprisingly high, considering that it was made without any fat. Healthy,
too.
[1] Frozen yogurt, which doesn't actually contain any yogurt, as far as I
know. By the way, what's the deal with the bizarre abbreviations in that
part of the country? I've heard some people claim that the tradition is
limited to Stanford University (MemChu for Memorial Church, CoHo for Coffee
House, etc.).
http://www.stanford.edu/~vigenere/Html/Stanford/StanfordSpeak.html
So, is it just Stanford or the Bay Area in general, or...?
--
Alex Chernavsky
al...@astrocyte-design.com
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote, in part:
>
> >Those on the Peninsula should check out Rick's Rather Rich Ice
> >Cream in Mountain View
>
> Are there still a lot of FroYo [1] places in and around Palo Alto?
A few. It's not quite the fad it once was.
> When I used to live there (early 1990s), you couldn't turn around
> without hitting one of those shops. Actually, the quality of the
> product was surprisingly high, considering that it was made without
> any fat. Healthy, too.
And a good alternative for those of us who are lactose intolerant and
don't remember to bring pills with us.
>
> [1] Frozen yogurt, which doesn't actually contain any yogurt, as far
> as I know.
It certainly should!
> By the way, what's the deal with the bizarre abbreviations in that
> part of the country? I've heard some people claim that the
> tradition is limited to Stanford University (MemChu for Memorial
> Church, CoHo for Coffee House, etc.).
>
> http://www.stanford.edu/~vigenere/Html/Stanford/StanfordSpeak.html
>
> So, is it just Stanford or the Bay Area in general, or...?
Pretty much just Stanford, I think. Thanks for the link. They appear
to have added a few more since I was there from '82-'87. Some were
canonical:
MemChu Memorial Church
MemAud Memorial Auditorium
FloMo Florence Moore Hall, a dorm
FroYo Frozen Yogurt
HausMitt Haus Mitteleurpoa, a theme house
ResEd Residential Education
HumBio Human Biology, an interdepartmental major
AmStud American Studies, an interdepartmental major and dorm
FemStud Feminist Studies
CompSci Computer Science
ChemE Chemical Engineering
PetE Petroleum Engineering
AeroAstro Aeronautics and Astronautics
PChem Physical Chemistry
OChem Organic Chemistry
and some were consciously "cute", but not used all that often
CoHo the Coffee House
CoPo the Corner Pocket (a pizza counter in the Student Union)
HooTow Hoover Tower
MemHoop a sculpture that looked like a big basketball hoop
MemPest a sculpture that looked like a giant mosquito
Abbreviations have been added for a few things we had that didn't have
them:
AxeComm Axe Committee (it's a long story)
GovCo Governor's Corner, a dorm
MixedCo Mixed Company, an a capella group
SymSys Symbolic Systems, an interdepartmental major
As well as for things we didn't have:
MuFuUnSun Much Fun Under the Sun (a yearly event)
ResComp Residential Computing
SlavDom Slavianskii Dom, a theme house
StaBu Starbucks
TresEx a store in the Student Union
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Usenet is like Tetris for people
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |who still remember how to read.
Palo Alto, CA 94304
Evan Kirshenbaum
> In article <v9hd7mj...@garrett.hpl.hp.com>, Evan Kirshenbaum
> <ev...@garrett.hpl.hp.com> writes
> >[1] Those on the Peninsula should check out Rick's Rather Rich Ice
> > Cream in Mountain View, a hole-in-the-wall that has quite probably
> > the best ice cream I've ever tasted. The "rather rich" refers to
> > the butterfat content, which is substantially higher than your
> > normal "super-premium" ice cream. He told us[2] that he had tried
> > to use a higher butterfat content, but that the ice cream had
> > turned to butter in the machine.
>
> Your description of Rick and his business is tempting me to start
> saving for the air fare. Where's 'the Peninsular?'
Geographically the Peninsula is the spit of land capped at its
northern end by San Francisco, bounded on the west by the Pacific
Ocean and on the East by San Francisco Bay. In practice, it doesn't
include San Francisco and runs down to (but not including) San Jose,
going a bit south of the actual peninsula. It also doesn't typically
run all the way to the ocean, but rather contains those cities
accessible from the two north/south arteries: I-280 on the west and US
101 on the east.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |It is one thing to be mistaken; it is
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |quite another to be willfully
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |ignorant
| Cecil Adams
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Michael Cargal
>Richard Fontana wrote:
>> <snip>
>> It would be like shortening
>> "Chinese restaurant" to "Chinese". "We're gonna get takeout from the
>> Chinese". Quite possible, but hardly standard.
>
>Actually this side of the great water, it _is_standard. 'We're going to
>the Chinese', 'We're going for an Indian'. Sit in any pub on a Friday
>night here, and you'll hear such phrases chorussed from every side.
And in Southern California, we would leave out the article, saying
"We're going out for Chinese."
--
Michael Cargal mhca...@home.com
Skitt
Stephen Toogood <ste...@stenches.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:DwZsNJAu...@stenches.demon.co.uk...
> In article <v9hd7mj...@garrett.hpl.hp.com>, Evan Kirshenbaum
> <ev...@garrett.hpl.hp.com> writes
> >
> > holds two degrees in ice cream
>
> At two degrees wouldn't it melt?
>
> Oh, Fahrenheit of course.
Hardly.
--
Skitt http://i.am/skitt/
Some mornings it's just not worth chewing through
the leather straps. -- Emo Phillips
Richard Fontana
That works in the Northeast too, or at least the New York area, but maybe
the whole country. What I was talking about was something like using "the
Chinese" as a synonym for "the Chinese restaurant", which is a bit
different.
RF
Richard Fontana
> Aaron J. Dinkin <din...@fas.harvard.edu> spewed forth:
> > In article <20000518235655...@ng-fu1.aol.com>,
> > grap...@aol.comjunk (GrapeApe) wrote:
>
> >> >> Anyway, the jerks were jerking soda. Not pop. Not soda with syrup
> >> >> flavoring, but plain old carbonated water.
> >> >
> >> >Oh, you mean seltzer.
> >>
> >> I originally typed seltzer. Were you peeking?
> >>
> >> I backed out of seltzer because there are some schools of thought that say
> >> seltzer has certain mineral content, carbonated water isnt necessarily
> >> seltzer, seltzer isnt necessarily soda.
>
> > To some schools of thought, soda isn't necessarily seltzer. That is, soda
> > is seltzer with syrup flavoring; seltzer is just carbonated water.
>
> To my school of thought, seltzer = soda water. When you add minerals, in
> particular quinine, it becomes tonic water. On the other hand,
> tonic = soda = seltzer + syrup.
To me, seltzer is a retail food product, consisting of carbonated water
and little else (perhaps flavoring). If it's not packaged as seltzer,
it's carbonated water. "Soda water" is a term I wouldn't normally use.
"Tonic" is tonic water (generally only when used in particular drinks),
and otherwise vaguely suggests an antique liquid product intended for
medicinal or pseudo-medicinal use.
RF
Dennis Bathory-Kitsz
>
> To me, seltzer is a retail food product
When I lived in Trenton, New Jersey, seltzer was delivered weekly to
homes in wooden cases with 12 bottles containing spray nozzles.
Delivered seltzer was cheaper and better -- more effervescent, and with
the wonderful nozzle which you could use to infuse juice -- than the
"new" bottled variety found in the supermarkets. The driver exchanged
the full box every week so the seltzer was always fresh. Seltzer
delivery fell victim to the rising fuel costs in the 1970s.
Dennis
--
Dennis Báthory-Kitsz
MaltedMedia Productions: http://maltedmedia.com/
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Richard Fontana
> Richard Fontana wrote:
>
> > "Tonic" is tonic water (generally only when used in particular drinks),
> > and otherwise vaguely suggests an antique liquid product intended for
> > medicinal or pseudo-medicinal use.
>
> Except in New England, of course, where tonic = soda = pop = any type
> of flavored carbonated beverage (Coke, Pepsi, Sprite, ginger ale,
> root beer, etc.)
Don't forget moxie.
RF
nancy g.
Stephen Toogood
writes
'seltzer' these days, at least not without the 'Alka-' prefix.
Since the word describes a German mineral water, I suspect that the
usage halted abruptly in 1914 or thereabouts.
The drink more recently fashionable as a 'spritzer' was c1900 termed a
'hock and seltzer' (see also John Betjeman, 'The arrest of Oscar Wilde')
Fitting, perhaps, that it should have been re-invented with another
German name.
By 'pseudo-medicinal use', I take it Richard means mixing with gin. The
phrase 'purely for medicinal purposes, you understand' is not unheard in
our household, especially at times when work is stressful. Tonic water
contains (quoted from the bottle of Waitrose own-brand in the pantry)
water, sugar, citric acid, flavouring, sodium benzoate, quinine
hydrochloride. It is of course carbonated.
If you don't go for gin, it's excellent with Angostura Bitters.
The term 'tonic water' is not in the UK used for any other fluid. (he
said, somewhat dogmatically)
Soda water used to appear in pressurised siphons that hooray henries
would think it a corking wheeze to point at each other. Non-Scotsmen
would often put soda water in whisky, though that's become rare these
days. The difference between soda water and sparkling mineral water is
(in UK usage) the presence of sodium bicarbonate in soda water that
gives it a slightly slimy taste.
--
Stephen Toogood
Benjamin Krefetz
> On 22 May 2000, Benjamin Krefetz wrote:
>> Aaron J. Dinkin <din...@fas.harvard.edu> spewed forth:
>> > In article <20000518235655...@ng-fu1.aol.com>,
>> > grap...@aol.comjunk (GrapeApe) wrote:
>>
>> >> >> Anyway, the jerks were jerking soda. Not pop. Not soda with syrup
>> >> >> flavoring, but plain old carbonated water.
>> >> >
>> >> >Oh, you mean seltzer.
>> >>
>> >> I originally typed seltzer. Were you peeking?
>> >>
>> >> I backed out of seltzer because there are some schools of thought that say
>> >> seltzer has certain mineral content, carbonated water isnt necessarily
>> >> seltzer, seltzer isnt necessarily soda.
>>
>> > To some schools of thought, soda isn't necessarily seltzer. That is, soda
>> > is seltzer with syrup flavoring; seltzer is just carbonated water.
>>
>> To my school of thought, seltzer = soda water. When you add minerals, in
>> particular quinine, it becomes tonic water. On the other hand,
>> tonic = soda = seltzer + syrup.
> To me, seltzer is a retail food product, consisting of carbonated water
> and little else (perhaps flavoring). If it's not packaged as seltzer,
> it's carbonated water. "Soda water" is a term I wouldn't normally use.
> "Tonic" is tonic water (generally only when used in particular drinks),
> and otherwise vaguely suggests an antique liquid product intended for
> medicinal or pseudo-medicinal use.
I gather "tonic" as a synonym for "soda" is limited to New England in use.
Ben
Richard Fontana
Yes. It's been discussed here a bit before. I got the impression
that the usage is dying out in New England -- migrants to Boston seem
unaware of it.
RF
Aaron J. Dinkin
<Pine.GSO.4.10.100052...@merhaba.cc.columbia.edu>,
Richard Fontana <re...@columbia.edu> wrote:
Yes. For instance, my parents' relatives use, or used to use, "tonic", but
it is only present in my passive vocabulary.
-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
Mike Page
<ste...@stenches.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote (of tonic water):
>
>If you don't go for gin, it's excellent with Angostura Bitters.
>
>The term 'tonic water' is not in the UK used for any other fluid. (he
>said, somewhat dogmatically)
Sorry this a long time after the original post - it's the marking
season. I'd concur that tonic and bitters (sometimes called a
'boilermaker', my barmaid daughter tells me) is excellent when
you don't want something alcoholic [1], but why have the last
four pubs I've asked for it in not had the bitters? Has bitters
been outlawed by some EU regulation or been found to cause horrid
diseases?
[1] Bitters contains alcohol but is used in minute quantities. A
pink gin is prepared by swirling a few drops of bitters round the
glass and throwing any excess away. It's the Marmite of the
drinking world.
Mike Page
Let the ape escape for e-mail
Charles Strauss
Boy, that's not what they mean by 'boilermaker' in the USA, especially
in Chicago!
/cms
Larry Preuss
mi...@pagehq.orang.freeserve.net wrote:
> On Mon, 22 May 2000 15:01:42 +0100, Stephen Toogood
> <ste...@stenches.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote (of tonic water):
>
> >
> >If you don't go for gin, it's excellent with Angostura Bitters.
> >
> >The term 'tonic water' is not in the UK used for any other fluid. (he
> >said, somewhat dogmatically)
>
> Sorry this a long time after the original post - it's the marking
> season. I'd concur that tonic and bitters (sometimes called a
> 'boilermaker', my barmaid daughter tells me) is excellent when
> you don't want something alcoholic [1], but why have the last
> four pubs I've asked for it in not had the bitters? Has bitters
> been outlawed by some EU regulation or been found to cause horrid
> diseases?
>
> [1] Bitters contains alcohol but is used in minute quantities. A
> pink gin is prepared by swirling a few drops of bitters round the
> glass and throwing any excess away. It's the Marmite of the
> drinking world.
>
>
> Mike Page
> Let the ape escape for e-mail
In the US a boilermaker is a shot glass of liquor dropped into a glass
of beer, or was so when I was in college.
Lp
--
Skitt
Michael West <mbw...@remove.bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:vTWY4.8557$c5.1...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
>
> "Larry Preuss" wrote
> >
> > In the US a boilermaker is a shot glass of liquor dropped into a glass
> > of beer, or was so when I was in college.
>
>
>
> describe a "depth charge."
>
> A boilermaker was just a plain old shot-and-a-beer,
> administered serially rather than in parallel, rapidly,
> the shot first. The shot was American or Canadian
> whiskey, and the beer was whatever was on tap. This
> is what my buddies used to call "power drinking."
I'm with you!
--
Skitt (in SF Bay Area) http://i.am/skitt/
I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and doggone it,
people like me!
Larry Preuss
<mbw...@remove.bigpond.com> wrote:
> "Larry Preuss" wrote
> >
> > In the US a boilermaker is a shot glass of liquor dropped into a glass
> > of beer, or was so when I was in college.
>
>
>
> Growing up in Chicago, I learned to call what you
> describe a "depth charge."
>
> A boilermaker was just a plain old shot-and-a-beer,
> administered serially rather than in parallel, rapidly,
> the shot first. The shot was American or Canadian
> whiskey, and the beer was whatever was on tap. This
> is what my buddies used to call "power drinking."
>
> Mike West
> Melbourne, Australia
>
I stand well corrected; what I described was called a depth charge. It's
been a long, long time.
Larry
--
Michael West
Laura F Spira
Mike Page wrote:
> On Mon, 22 May 2000 15:01:42 +0100, Stephen Toogood
> <ste...@stenches.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote (of tonic water):
>
> >
> >If you don't go for gin, it's excellent with Angostura Bitters.
> >
> >The term 'tonic water' is not in the UK used for any other fluid. (he
> >said, somewhat dogmatically)
>
> Sorry this a long time after the original post - it's the marking
> season. I'd concur that tonic and bitters (sometimes called a
> 'boilermaker', my barmaid daughter tells me) is excellent when
> you don't want something alcoholic [1], but why have the last
> four pubs I've asked for it in not had the bitters? Has bitters
> been outlawed by some EU regulation or been found to cause horrid
> diseases?
>
> [1] Bitters contains alcohol but is used in minute quantities. A
> pink gin is prepared by swirling a few drops of bitters round the
> glass and throwing any excess away. It's the Marmite of the
> drinking world.
>
Your drink is called a 'steelworks' where Damien Hirst drinks but perhaps
we wouldn't want to drink there....
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Earle Jones
<la...@DRAGONspira.u-net.com> wrote:
> Mike Page wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 22 May 2000 15:01:42 +0100, Stephen Toogood
> > <ste...@stenches.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote (of tonic water):
> >
[...]
> >
> > Sorry this a long time after the original post - it's the marking
> > season. I'd concur that tonic and bitters (sometimes called a
> > 'boilermaker', my barmaid daughter tells me) is excellent when
> > you don't want something alcoholic [1], but why have the last
> > four pubs I've asked for it in not had the bitters?
*
When I order a Boilermaker, I would expect a mug of beer with a shot of
whiskey. In one version, the whiskey is poured into the beer. If the
whiskey, shot glass and all, is dropped into the beer, it is known as a
"Depth Charge".
And what is a "Diesel"?
earle
*
Stephen Toogood
.orang.fsnet.co.uk> writes
>Sorry this a long time after the original post - it's the marking
>season. I'd concur that tonic and bitters (sometimes called a
>'boilermaker', my barmaid daughter tells me) is excellent when
>you don't want something alcoholic [1], but why have the last
>been outlawed by some EU regulation or been found to cause horrid
>diseases?
Someone told me (no source) that Angostura had been found to be
carcinogenic. It won't stop me drinking the stuff.
One fluid I have been deprived of since the end of European duty-free is
Cork Gin. Cork blue-label makes the Perfect Harry Pinkers. Any idea
whether it's imported into the UK?
>
>[1] Bitters contains alcohol but is used in minute quantities. A
>pink gin is prepared by swirling a few drops of bitters round the
>glass and throwing any excess away. It's the Marmite of the
>drinking world.
>
We'll agree to differ; I hate marmite.
--
Stephen Toogood
Mike Page
> >pink gin is prepared by swirling a few drops of bitters round the
> >glass and throwing any excess away. It's the Marmite of the
> >drinking world.
> >
> We'll agree to differ; I hate marmite.
I meant in the 'less is more' sense.
--