Hon my way to Georgia?
Joachim Pense
"h". At some places also "I".
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQ7SYt-b-fI>
Does that have to do with Ilinois, where she's from? If not, what else
is the explanation?
In a later version, she has dropped that feature:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZP5U6SW_08> (any relation to the color
of her hair? :-)
Joachim
tony cooper
<sn...@pense-mainz.eu> wrote:
>In this video, Alison Krauss precedes some initial "o"s with a strong
>"h". At some places also "I".
><http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQ7SYt-b-fI>
>
>Does that have to do with Ilinois, where she's from? If not, what else
>is the explanation?
I don't think it has anything to do with her Illinois upbringing. I
think she's affecting a "hillbilly accent" even though Georgia is not
hillbilly country.
I would doubt that her conversational voice would be anything like
this. In singing, though, she adapts an accent to suit the type of
music.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Donna Richoux
Yes, I hear it -- "Hon my way" for "On my way." It's very strange and
I've never heard any speaker of English do that anywhere.
All I can think of is singing technique -- it's hard to belt out a word
that begins with a vowel. She may have been advised to put an H in front
to get the word out, or she may have slipped into the habit
unconsciously.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Jerry Friedman
> In this video, Alison Krauss precedes some initial "o"s with a strong
> "h". At some places also "I".
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQ7SYt-b-fI>
>
> Does that have to do with Ilinois, where she's from?
I lived for seven years in Champaign-Urbana, where she's from, and I
never heard that.
(She was making a name for herself towards the end of my time there,
but I never went to see her perform.)
--
Jerry Friedman
R H Draney
Back in the 1990s, a couple of comedians noted that this was the best way to do
a quick-and-dirty impression of vice president Al Gore..."he puts aitches in
whords where they dhon't belhong; we're ghonna say nho to Bhosnia!"....r
--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.
Peter T. Daniels
It's a bad habit that your voice teacher will try to get you not to do
-- you don't want any noise coming out of you before the vowel. (That
includes a glottal, which probably makes it a little harder for a
German-speaker to sing Italian than some others.)
Ruud Harmsen
in sci.lang:
>In this video, Alison Krauss precedes some initial "o"s with a strong
>"h". At some places also "I".
><http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQ7SYt-b-fI>
>
>Does that have to do with Ilinois, where she's from? If not, what else
>is the explanation?
People don't always sing like they talk. (Ask PTD!)
Some fado singers routinely precede any first word starting in a vowel
with an m that's isn't part of the word.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Joachim Pense
Am 14.10.2010 08:21, schrieb Ruud Harmsen:
>
> People don't always sing like they talk. (Ask PTD!)
>
That's why I included sci.lang. And he already has answered.
Joachim
Peter T. Daniels
(What I object to with Ruud is his taking practices _deliberately
introduced into singing to make it sound better_ as dialect features.
This pre-aspiration isn't that, it's just a bad habit.)
Ruud Harmsen
<gram...@verizon.net>: in sci.lang:
>On Oct 14, 4:40�am, Joachim Pense <s...@pense-mainz.eu> wrote:
>> Am 14.10.2010 08:21, schrieb Ruud Harmsen:
>>
>>
>>
>> > People don't always sing like they talk. (Ask PTD!)
>>
>> That's why I included sci.lang. And he already has answered.
>
>(What I object to with Ruud is his taking practices _deliberately
>introduced into singing to make it sound better_ as dialect features.
??? Where did I ever claim such a thing?
>This pre-aspiration isn't that, it's just a bad habit.)
OK.
peer mankpoot
(PDT):
> (What I object to with Ruud is his taking practices _deliberately
> introduced into singing to make it sound better_ as dialect features.
> This pre-aspiration isn't that, it's just a bad habit.)
Well, not "just". It used to be a way for not-so-skilled singers to
sing more or less difficult parts. Starting with a glottal stop
apparently is more difficult than starting without.
Another example: if the singer is not sure of finding the right tone
or volume right away (as a result of lack of talent, lack of training,
uncertainty, stress) he or she often introduces a humming sound [m] or
[n] or [ng] at the start. The singer can then slide his or her way to
the right tone or volume.
Sadly, it seems to have become normal nowadays in popular music,
especially that awful r'n'b stuff. There are lots more things in
modern r'n'b I hate but I won't go into that. De gustibus and all that
jazz.
BTW, I would consider Alison Kraus (sp? I always forget) to be a
singer who really doesn't need this kind of trick. Funny that she is
"hon" her way to Georgia.
--
peer mankpoot
I tried to take a late night piss
but the toilet moved so again I missed
- The Pogues (Rain Street)
Peter T. Daniels
> Thu, 14 Oct 2010 04:29:47 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
>
> >On Oct 14, 4:40 am, Joachim Pense <s...@pense-mainz.eu> wrote:
> >> Am 14.10.2010 08:21, schrieb Ruud Harmsen:
>
> >> > People don't always sing like they talk. (Ask PTD!)
>
> >> That's why I included sci.lang. And he already has answered.
>
> >(What I object to with Ruud is his taking practices _deliberately
> >introduced into singing to make it sound better_ as dialect features.
>
> ??? Where did I ever claim such a thing?
You were _always_ taking features of singing as dialect features!
Evidently you hadn't understood that they could be distortions
introduced to make it sound better.
Joachim Pense
Am 14.10.2010 14:18, schrieb peer mankpoot:
> Peter T. Daniels schreef/citeerde op Thu, 14 Oct 2010 04:29:47 -0700
> (PDT):
>
> Another example: if the singer is not sure of finding the right tone
> or volume right away (as a result of lack of talent, lack of training,
> uncertainty, stress) he or she often introduces a humming sound [m] or
> [n] or [ng] at the start. The singer can then slide his or her way to
> the right tone or volume.
>
> Sadly, it seems to have become normal nowadays in popular music,
> especially that awful r'n'b stuff. There are lots more things in
> modern r'n'b I hate but I won't go into that. De gustibus and all that
> jazz.
Isn't sliding to the note a standard ornamentation in most singing
styles (except in western classical music)?
>
> BTW, I would consider Alison Kraus (sp? I always forget) to be a
It's Krauss.
> singer who really doesn't need this kind of trick. Funny that she is
> "hon" her way to Georgia.
She has certainly a great voice and masters a wide dynamic range.
Obviously, she has got rid of that habit when singing the version on the
second video I had pointed at, a few years later. Still it is strange
she needed it in the first one.
Sadly, she's drifting more and more into sugary pop lately. And, I have
the impression she liked that sort of thing from the beginning.
I didn't know of her until I accidentally stumbled into her version of
Hank Williams' and Bill Monroe's "Blue and Lonesome". Still the best
recording of her that I know. It raised my interest in Bluegrass and
other kinds of not too lightweight Country music. The world has a rich
variety of great music to offer, why not that as well...
Joachim
Peter T. Daniels
> Peter T. Daniels schreef/citeerde op Thu, 14 Oct 2010 04:29:47 -0700
> (PDT):
>
> > (What I object to with Ruud is his taking practices _deliberately
> > introduced into singing to make it sound better_ as dialect features.
> > This pre-aspiration isn't that, it's just a bad habit.)
>
> Well, not "just". It used to be a way for not-so-skilled singers to
> sing more or less difficult parts. Starting with a glottal stop
> apparently is more difficult than starting without.
Nope, it's one of the things directors of amateur choruses have to
harp on the most. (With singers whose native languages do that, of
course.)
> Another example: if the singer is not sure of finding the right tone
> or volume right away (as a result of lack of talent, lack of training,
> uncertainty, stress) he or she often introduces a humming sound [m] or
> [n] or [ng] at the start. The singer can then slide his or her way to
> the right tone or volume.
That is apparently accepted, even favored, in pop singing. It is
absolutely _not_ accepted in classical singing -- which is why the
vast majority of crossover albums are musically total failures. (In
both directions.)
> Sadly, it seems to have become normal nowadays in popular music,
> especially that awful r'n'b stuff. There are lots more things in
> modern r'n'b I hate but I won't go into that. De gustibus and all that
> jazz.
>
> BTW, I would consider Alison Kraus (sp? I always forget) to be a
> singer who really doesn't need this kind of trick. Funny that she is
> "hon" her way to Georgia.
I suppose I must have heard her on Prairie Home Companion, but I
usually just tune out the country singers. Gotta perk up again when
the Guy Noir or Lives of the Cowboys music starts, though.
peer mankpoot
(PDT):
> > > (What I object to with Ruud is his taking practices _deliberately
> > > introduced into singing to make it sound better_ as dialect features.
> > > This pre-aspiration isn't that, it's just a bad habit.)
> >
> > Well, not "just". It used to be a way for not-so-skilled singers to
> > sing more or less difficult parts. Starting with a glottal stop
> > apparently is more difficult than starting without.
>
> Nope, it's one of the things directors of amateur choruses have to
> harp on the most. (With singers whose native languages do that, of
> course.)
I agree with you on that; I wasn't making myself clear enough, sorry.
What I meant was that singers _seem to think_ it is difficult to start
with a stop, whereas it is a "trick" that can be easily learned. Even
for singers whose native languages can't have a glottal stop at the
beginning (are there any such languages?). It is a quite simple vocal
technique.
--
peer mankpoot
One of the reasons you have such a great voice is that
you have resonance where your brains ought to be.
- Anna Russell
peer mankpoot
> Isn't sliding to the note a standard ornamentation in most singing
> styles (except in western classical music)?
Yes, absolutely. I wasn't making myself clear enough, sorry. I meant
the instances where the slide is a patch, a band aid, a disguise, and
not an intentional ornamentation.
[Alison Krauss]
> I didn't know of her until I accidentally stumbled into her version of
> Hank Williams' and Bill Monroe's "Blue and Lonesome". Still the best
> recording of her that I know.
Try "New Favorite" (2001). She's accompanied by Union Station - great
band. Dan Tyminski is fantastic, check out his solo recordings.
> It raised my interest in Bluegrass and
> other kinds of not too lightweight Country music.
Check out the self-titled album by Nickel Creek (2000), produced by
Krauss. Not strictly bluegrass, not strictly country, but a great
album.
> The world has a rich
> variety of great music to offer, why not that as well...
Then try some sugary pop as well. Why not?
--
peer mankpoot __
_|_ |_
| | |
|_|\_\_|
Etwas Kultur muss sein. |__|
Bertel Lund Hansen
> Isn't sliding to the note a standard ornamentation in most singing
> styles (except in western classical music)?
Yes. You'll find it even in western classical music, but to a
much lesser extent.
But there's a difference between sliding because you feel the
musical need for a slide precisely there, and sliding because you
cannot hit the note straight on.
> She has certainly a great voice and masters a wide dynamic range.
It's a great piece of music. I had to hear it three times before
I could disregard how beautiful it sounded and focus on the form.
--
Bertel, Denmark
Bertel Lund Hansen
> That is apparently accepted, even favored, in pop singing.
Not just pop (but we may have different definitions). Many
(socalled) rythmic genres use sliding as an effect. When it is
not a coverup for lack of ability, it is an indispensable effect.
> It is absolutely _not_ accepted in classical singing -
I would question that statement. A couple of months ago I
saw/heard an opera recording that my father has. I noticed a
little slide here and there. This weekend I'll see my father
again, and then I'll find out precisely which performance it was.
Here is an example where one can hear slide in a Verdi opera
(Rigoletto La Dona e mobile):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8A3zetSuYRg
The singer slides on the very first note. This may be an error.
But he also slides on "balbetto" and shortly after on "muu...".
There are several examples in the following singing. The slide is
far from as 'strong' as it is in say country&western, but it is
there.
> which is why the vast majority of crossover albums are musically
> total failures. (In both directions.)
I agree with the failure bit. The technique and the way effects
are used in the two kinds of music, is completely different.
--
Bertel, Denmark
Joachim Pense
Am 14.10.2010 16:54, schrieb peer mankpoot:
> Dan Tyminski is fantastic, check out his solo recordings.
>
Yes, indeed. I already had started redirecting the focus of attention
from Alison to Dan.
Joachim
Joachim Pense
And what does he sing? "I ham a man of constant sorrow."
James Hogg
They're all good, but Jerry Douglas is the real star of the band.
--
James
Joachim Pense
Alison had a good hand at picking the right people for US also in the
early times, when she got Tim Stafford and amazing Alison Brown on the
Banjo.
Joachim
Nick
> Back in the 1990s, a couple of comedians noted that this was the best
> way to do a quick-and-dirty impression of vice president Al Gore..."he
> puts aitches in whords where they dhon't belhong; we're ghonna say nho
> to Bhosnia!"....r
Does that affect the rhythm of his speech. If so, there's probably an
algorithm to explain it.
--
Online waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu
Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk
Peter T. Daniels
<splitteminebrams...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
> Peter T. Daniels skrev:
>
> > That is apparently accepted, even favored, in pop singing.
>
> Not just pop (but we may have different definitions). Many
> (socalled) rythmic genres use sliding as an effect. When it is
> not a coverup for lack of ability, it is an indispensable effect.
>
> > It is absolutely _not_ accepted in classical singing -
>
> I would question that statement. A couple of months ago I
> saw/heard an opera recording that my father has. I noticed a
> little slide here and there. This weekend I'll see my father
> again, and then I'll find out precisely which performance it was.
>
> Here is an example where one can hear slide in a Verdi opera
> (Rigoletto La Dona e mobile):
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8A3zetSuYRg
>
> The singer slides on the very first note. This may be an error.
There's certainly no reason to do a slide on "La"!
> But he also slides on "balbetto" and shortly after on "muu...".
> There are several examples in the following singing. The slide is
> far from as 'strong' as it is in say country&western, but it is
> there.
My computer doesn't have sound. Is that a trained singer, or some guy
who put up a video of himself singing?
Bertel Lund Hansen
> My computer doesn't have sound. Is that a trained singer, or some guy
> who put up a video of himself singing?
Luciano Pavarotti as the Duke of Mantua
--
Bertel, Denmark
Peter T. Daniels
Ah.
He got banned from Lyric Opera of Chicago not _only_ because he had a
tendency not to show up (we got stuck with _Luisa Miller_ twice on his
insistence). After the first few years, when he could no longer rely
on instinct but some technical training in technique and musicianship
might have made him into a truly great singer, he never bothered to
learn.
And ruined "Nessun dorma" for all time, by belting it out transposed
down about a minor third at the drop of a hat, so that every "Got
Talent" show features at least one attempt at a performance of it.
Bertel Lund Hansen
> He got banned from Lyric Opera of Chicago not _only_ because he had a
> tendency not to show up (we got stuck with _Luisa Miller_ twice on his
> insistence).
My point had to do with slide in western classical music. I never
liked Pavarotti either, but his singing illustrates what I mean.
--
Bertel, Denmark
Peter Moylan
>
> Isn't sliding to the note a standard ornamentation in most singing
> styles (except in western classical music)?
When our choir conductor catches us sliding, we have cause to be
grateful that she doesn't have a bigger baton.
--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.
peer mankpoot
> >> Dan Tyminski is fantastic, check out his solo recordings.
> > Yes, indeed. I already had started redirecting the focus of attention
> > from Alison to Dan.
> And what does he sing? "I ham a man of constant sorrow."
YES! He does! Now that you mention it I remember again. If my memory
serves me right he even sings "hI ham a man of constant sorrow".
So, after the metal umlaut (r�ck d�ts) we now also have the bluegrass
aitch.
--
peer mankpoot
Gestern Nacht ist meine Freundin explodiert
Ich hatte nicht damit gerechnet, darum bin ich blutverschmiert.
[Meine Ex(plodierte) Freundin - Die Aerzte]
James Hogg
> Joachim Pense schreef/citeerde op Thu, 14 Oct 2010 18:15:49 +0200:
>
>>>> Dan Tyminski is fantastic, check out his solo recordings.
>>> Yes, indeed. I already had started redirecting the focus of attention
>>> from Alison to Dan.
>> And what does he sing? "I ham a man of constant sorrow."
>
> YES! He does! Now that you mention it I remember again. If my memory
> serves me right he even sings "hI ham a man of constant sorrow".
>
> So, after the metal umlaut (r�ck d�ts) we now also have the bluegrass
> aitch.
We could call it the bluegrass haitch.
--
James
Ruud Harmsen
<gram...@verizon.net>: in sci.lang:
>On Oct 14, 7:47�am, Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
>> Thu, 14 Oct 2010 04:29:47 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gramma...@verizon.net>: in sci.lang:
>>
>> >On Oct 14, 4:40�am, Joachim Pense <s...@pense-mainz.eu> wrote:
>> >> Am 14.10.2010 08:21, schrieb Ruud Harmsen:
>>
>> >> > People don't always sing like they talk. (Ask PTD!)
>>
>> >> That's why I included sci.lang. And he already has answered.
>>
>> >(What I object to with Ruud is his taking practices _deliberately
>> >introduced into singing to make it sound better_ as dialect features.
>>
>> ??? Where did I ever claim such a thing?
>
>You were _always_ taking features of singing as dialect features!
Features of languages or regional accents. I can't have claimed
dialect features, because I hardly ever discussed songs in dialect and
I do not know enough about dialects.
>Evidently you hadn't understood that they could be distortions
>introduced to make it sound better.
I do and did understand that they can be that, but I claim they often
are not.
You on the other hand say that any evidence from songs must be
worthless by definition, because any of its features are probably
distortions to make it sound better.
Also, you seem to be unaware that classical singing habits are very
different from those in popular music and world music.
Ruud Harmsen
<peer.m...@gmail.com>: in sci.lang:
>Check out the self-titled album by Nickel Creek (2000), produced by
>Krauss. Not strictly bluegrass, not strictly country, but a great
>album.
BTW, I never say you write in English before. I think your English is
quite good.
Ruud Harmsen
<gram...@verizon.net>: in sci.lang:
>On Oct 14, 5:26�pm, Bertel Lund Hansen
>> � � � � Luciano Pavarotti [...]
>And ruined "Nessun dorma" for all time, by belting it out transposed
>down about a minor third at the drop of a hat, /
1) Why would that make any difference? Ah, you have absolute hearing.
I have not.
2) In every performance on Youtube I checked, by Pavarotti and by
others, the first vocal note is a d (re). What should it be according
to the score?
>/ so that every "Got
>Talent" show features at least one attempt at a performance of it.
What's that got to do with the transposition?
Ruud Harmsen
<inv...@peter.pmoylan.org.invalid>: in sci.lang:
>Joachim Pense wrote:
>>
>> Isn't sliding to the note a standard ornamentation in most singing
>> styles (except in western classical music)?
>
>When our choir conductor catches us sliding, we have cause to be
>grateful that she doesn't have a bigger baton.
In Renaissance music with no vibrato at all? There I can imagine
slides to be forbidden.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9trNNUsb20
Ruud Harmsen
<peer.m...@gmail.com>: in sci.lang:
>Joachim Pense schreef/citeerde op Thu, 14 Oct 2010 18:15:49 +0200:
>> And what does he sing? "I ham a man of constant sorrow."
>
>YES! He does! Now that you mention it I remember again. If my memory
>serves me right he even sings "hI ham a man of constant sorrow".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8LCYS_85Dk
He does indeed.
"The place where high was born and bred."
Peter Moylan
the 20th century. It's possible, although I haven't checked, that The
Internationale is our very oldest song.
peer mankpoot
> BTW, I never say you write in English before.
w
I nevertheless frequently do. nl.* is not the only hierarchy I lurk
around and post in.
> I think your English is quite good.
Thank you, but I don't fully agree. I often struggle with it. Too bad
Dutch did not become the New World's lingo.
<insert urban legend here>
Anyway, I hope my English is not too bad. Mrs. Mankpoot doesn't speak
Dutch; we speak (a kind of) English together because her Dutch is
rudimentary and my Italian is absent.
--
peer mankpoot
Give a monkey a brain and he'll swear he's the center of the universe.
(Fishbone)
Peter T. Daniels
> Thu, 14 Oct 2010 06:46:20 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> >On Oct 14, 7:47 am, Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> >> Thu, 14 Oct 2010 04:29:47 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> >> <gramma...@verizon.net>: in sci.lang:
> >> >On Oct 14, 4:40 am, Joachim Pense <s...@pense-mainz.eu> wrote:
> >> >> Am 14.10.2010 08:21, schrieb Ruud Harmsen:
>
> >> >> > People don't always sing like they talk. (Ask PTD!)
>
> >> >> That's why I included sci.lang. And he already has answered.
>
> >> >(What I object to with Ruud is his taking practices _deliberately
> >> >introduced into singing to make it sound better_ as dialect features.
>
> >> ??? Where did I ever claim such a thing?
>
> >You were _always_ taking features of singing as dialect features!
>
> Features of languages or regional accents. I can't have claimed
> dialect features, because I hardly ever discussed songs in dialect and
> I do not know enough about dialects.
Oh, fer cryin' ourt loud. Would you read ONE linguistics book????
EVERYONE speaks a dialect. Some people speak the dialect called
"Standard" X, others speak a dialect identified with some subgroup
whether geographic, social, whatever.
> >Evidently you hadn't understood that they could be distortions
> >introduced to make it sound better.
>
> I do and did understand that they can be that, but I claim they often
> are not.
>
> You on the other hand say that any evidence from songs must be
> worthless by definition, because any of its features are probably
> distortions to make it sound better.
No, they are probably distortions for a variety of reasons. Including
physiology.
> Also, you seem to be unaware that classical singing habits are very
> different from those in popular music and world music.
You haven't been looking at my postings in this very thread?
Peter T. Daniels
> Ruud Harmsen schreef/citeerde op Fri, 15 Oct 2010 09:02:40 +0200:
>
> > BTW, I never say you write in English before.
>
> w
>
> I nevertheless frequently do. nl.* is not the only hierarchy I lurk
> around and post in.
>
> > I think your English is quite good.
>
> Thank you, but I don't fully agree. I often struggle with it. Too bad
> Dutch did not become the New World's lingo.
>
> <insert urban legend here>
Well, your guys were busy doing something else when the Brits decided
they wanted New Amsterdam!
Peter T. Daniels
> Fri, 15 Oct 2010 17:36:15 +1100: Peter Moylan
>
> >Joachim Pense wrote:
>
> >> Isn't sliding to the note a standard ornamentation in most singing
> >> styles (except in western classical music)?
>
> >When our choir conductor catches us sliding, we have cause to be
> >grateful that she doesn't have a bigger baton.
>
> In Renaissance music with no vibrato at all?
???? Are you stuck in the mode of early Harnoncourt? I listened to his
very first album released over here -- the b minor Mass -- and have
never again listened (deliberately) to a note he recorded.
Unfortunately half the Bach cantatas in Telefunken's series with
Leonhardt were done by Harnoncourt, and not a single 4-cantata volume
didn't have at least one by H.
Peter T. Daniels
> Thu, 14 Oct 2010 20:18:08 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> >On Oct 14, 5:26 pm, Bertel Lund Hansen
> >> Luciano Pavarotti [...]
> >And ruined "Nessun dorma" for all time, by belting it out transposed
> >down about a minor third at the drop of a hat, /
>
> 1) Why would that make any difference? Ah, you have absolute hearing.
> I have not.
If you've never attended an opera performance, then I can understand
why you'd have no appreciation of what it takes to produce a high C.
Whereas the high A-flat is within the competence of any chorus tenor.
(Orff evern writes A-flat or A for the _baritones_ in the orgasm
movement of Carmina Burana.)
> 2) In every performance on Youtube I checked, by Pavarotti and by
> others, the first vocal note is a d (re). What should it be according
> to the score?
No idea. What is the pitch of the climactic high note?
> >/ so that every "Got
> >Talent" show features at least one attempt at a performance of it.
>
> What's that got to do with the transposition?
(a) It makes it possible for them to attempt it at all, but (b) it
wasn't the transposition that made it commonplace, it was the "belting
it out" in hundreds of "Three Tenors" broadcasts.
Joachim Pense
Not exactly Renaissance.
Anyway, I conclude that you don't like the Hilliard Ensemble.
Joachim
Peter T. Daniels
(Wait, that's the New Age group that did that ridiculous album
claiming that JSB incorporated secret messages in the solo violin
Chaconne?)
My familiarity with pre-Baroque music came from (singing in) Howard
Mayer Brown's Collegium Musicum chorus in the late 1970s (he literally
wrote the book on performance practice of the time) and, after that,
from my association with His Majesties Clerkes when Ann Heider was the
director. (I was their librarian for several years.) She is a
musicologist. (After I left Chicago, the group's name changed to Colla
Voce, and I never did find out why.) She did a concert to demonstrate
the various pronunciations of Latin in the music of different
countries in the 16th century.
I used to love Karl Richter's Bach recordings -- he was one of the
first to try to incoporate the discoveries of musicologists into his
performances -- but he used modern instruments and modern singing
techniques, and now I find his performances unlistenable (except the
solo keyboard items).
Joachim Pense
Am 15.10.2010 14:53, schrieb Peter T. Daniels:
>>
>> Anyway, I conclude that you don't like the Hilliard Ensemble.
>
> (Wait, that's the New Age group that did that ridiculous album
> claiming that JSB incorporated secret messages in the solo violin
> Chaconne?)
>
In the eighties, they did some great "reference quality" recordings of
Middle Age works, e.g. by Perotin, Machaut. Their reduced, vibratoless
a-capella style was very refreshing at the time. At least it exposed the
design of the compositions very clearly, without distraction. I don't
think this is close to the appearance of the pieces as intended by the
composers, but that's a secondary question anyway.
They did some awful new-age stuff with ECM, but I feel free to actively
ignore that.
Joachim
peer mankpoot
(PDT):
> Well, your guys were busy doing something else when the Brits decided
> they wanted New Amsterdam!
And no-one in their right mind would rise against Brits in America, of
course.
--
peer (ducking)
CDB
> Peter T. Daniels skrev:
>
>
> Not just pop (but we may have different definitions). Many
> (socalled) rythmic genres use sliding as an effect. When it is
> not a coverup for lack of ability, it is an indispensable effect.
>
>> It is absolutely _not_ accepted in classical singing -
>
> I would question that statement. A couple of months ago I
> saw/heard an opera recording that my father has. I noticed a
> little slide here and there. This weekend I'll see my father
> again, and then I'll find out precisely which performance it was.
>
> Here is an example where one can hear slide in a Verdi opera
> (Rigoletto La Dona e mobile):
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8A3zetSuYRg
>
> The singer slides on the very first note. This may be an error.
> There are several examples in the following singing. The slide is
> far from as 'strong' as it is in say country&western, but it is
> there.
>
Roland Hutchinson
Check out his recording of Ma Vlast with the Vienna Phil. They played
the Moldau from this on the radio here the other day and I was mightily
impressed. The water sounds like water in a way that I don't recall ever
hearing in another performance.
--
Roland Hutchinson
He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba,"
... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy.
--Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ )
Peter T. Daniels
As Daniel Burnham was to say a bit over 200 years later, "Make no
little plans." [Referring to his vision for the development of
Chicago]
If the Dutch had put as much energy and enthusiasm into their New
World colonies as they did in the East Indies, they might have done a
lot better on the world stage! (We were a lot closer, too.)
Peter T. Daniels
wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Oct 2010 05:19:51 -0700, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Oct 15, 3:26 am, Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> >> Fri, 15 Oct 2010 17:36:15 +1100: Peter Moylan
> >> <inva...@peter.pmoylan.org.invalid>: in sci.lang:
>
> >> >Joachim Pense wrote:
>
> >> >> Isn't sliding to the note a standard ornamentation in most singing
> >> >> styles (except in western classical music)?
>
> >> >When our choir conductor catches us sliding, we have cause to be
> >> >grateful that she doesn't have a bigger baton.
>
> >> In Renaissance music with no vibrato at all?
>
> > ???? Are you stuck in the mode of early Harnoncourt? I listened to his
> > very first album released over here -- the b minor Mass -- and have
> > never again listened (deliberately) to a note he recorded.
>
> > Unfortunately half the Bach cantatas in Telefunken's series with
> > Leonhardt were done by Harnoncourt, and not a single 4-cantata volume
> > didn't have at least one by H.
>
> Check out his recording of Ma Vlast with the Vienna Phil. They played
> the Moldau from this on the radio here the other day and I was mightily
> impressed. The water sounds like water in a way that I don't recall ever
> hearing in another performance.
Indeed, in recent decades he, like Gardiner, has been creeping up
through the 19th century. Gardiner's series in NYC of all of
Schumann's orchestral works was magnificent (1997, just when his boxed
set came out). He had Robert Levin talk about the piano he used, and
all four horners described their instruments (two valved, two natural
-- as specified in the scores of the Konzertstueck and the Second
Symphony) and how they acquired them. He also talked about the seating
plan of the orchestra.
Long ago, I read the memoir of a London cellist who complained about
Hans Richter's demand that cellists use the floor peg instead of
supporting the instrument between the knees -- apparently it was
important for that modern music by Brahms -- but if Gardiner had
unpegged cellos in the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment, he
didn't mention it (I was too far away to see, though I don't think the
point occurred to me at the time).
My best Ma Vlast was a concert by Zdenek Macal and the Grant Park
Symphony marking some significant anniversary of the '68 events.
(Could it have been the 25th? no, the M.D. would have been Hugh Wolff
by then ... maybe it was in honor of the fall of communism?)
peer mankpoot
(PDT):
> If the Dutch had put as much energy and enthusiasm into their New
> World colonies as they did in the East Indies, they might have done a
> lot better on the world stage!
If my auntie had testicles she would have been my uncle.
> (We were a lot closer, too.)
"We"? How old are you then, Peter?
I do hope you weren't serious.
--
peer mankpoot
J'ai eu une flash en quatre couleurs.
[�a plane pour moi - Plastic Bertrand]
Ruud Harmsen
<gram...@verizon.net>: in sci.lang:
>Oh, fer cryin' ourt loud. Would you read ONE linguistics book????
>EVERYONE speaks a dialect.
In one sense of the word dialect.
Or explained in a different way:
- Everyone speaks a dialect
- Not everyone speaks dialect.
>Some people speak the dialect called
>"Standard" X, others speak a dialect identified with some subgroup
>whether geographic, social, whatever.
In one sense of the word 'dialect'. There are more senses.
Peter T. Daniels
> Peter T. Daniels schreef/citeerde op Fri, 15 Oct 2010 08:35:21 -0700
> (PDT):
>
> > If the Dutch had put as much energy and enthusiasm into their New
> > World colonies as they did in the East Indies, they might have done a
> > lot better on the world stage!
>
> If my auntie had testicles she would have been my uncle.
Highly unlikely!
> > (We were a lot closer, too.)
>
> "We"? How old are you then, Peter?
>
> I do hope you weren't serious.
Eh? Pronouns don't have tense. I am a New Yorker, and there is no
reason for me not to identify with New Yorkers (or New Amsterdamers)
of 350 years ago.
Get out your world map, and measure the distance from, say, Rotterdam
to New Amsterdam vs. the distance from Rotterdam to Batavia (whether
you take the sea route around the Cape of Good Hope, or an overland
route).
Peter T. Daniels
> Fri, 15 Oct 2010 05:14:33 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
>
> >Oh, fer cryin' ourt loud. Would you read ONE linguistics book????
> >EVERYONE speaks a dialect.
>
> In one sense of the word dialect.
In the linguistics sense.
> Or explained in a different way:
> - Everyone speaks a dialect
> - Not everyone speaks dialect.
>
> >Some people speak the dialect called
> >"Standard" X, others speak a dialect identified with some subgroup
> >whether geographic, social, whatever.
>
> In one sense of the word 'dialect'. There are more senses.
Not in linguistics, there aren't.
Ruud Harmsen
<gram...@verizon.net>: in sci.lang:
>> >When our choir conductor catches us sliding, we have cause to be
>> >grateful that she doesn't have a bigger baton.
>>
>> In Renaissance music with no vibrato at all?
>
>???? Are you stuck in the mode of early Harnoncourt?
I had never heard of Harnoncourt (but now have, thanks to Youtube; I
like his Austrian accent, sorry, that's a dialect to you) and I
haven't the slighest idea why you mention him.
By Renaissance I mean people like John Dunstable and Clemens non Papa.
Joachim Pense
Harnoncourt was one of the pioneers of Historically Informed Performance
from the 1950s on. He is still active as a conductor, lately in the more
mainstream area.
Joachim
Ruud Harmsen
<gram...@verizon.net>: in sci.lang:
OK, so the following sentences are invalid in linguistics (including
sociolinguistics):
"He doesn't speak dialect, but standard Dutch."
"Even regional TV channels in the Netherlands are almost exclusively
in Dutch, dialects are not used; however, Omrop Frysl�n uses Frisian
whenever possible, in various dialects including Stadsfries."
"In many regions of the country, there is a continuum between Standard
Dutch and various levels of dialect. People use what they feel is
approriate for the situation."
Peter T. Daniels
> Fri, 15 Oct 2010 11:42:16 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Oct 15, 12:52 pm, Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> >> Fri, 15 Oct 2010 05:14:33 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> >> <gramma...@verizon.net>: in sci.lang:
>
> >> >Oh, fer cryin' ourt loud. Would you read ONE linguistics book????
> >> >EVERYONE speaks a dialect.
>
> >> In one sense of the word dialect.
>
> >In the linguistics sense.
>
> >> Or explained in a different way:
> >> - Everyone speaks a dialect
> >> - Not everyone speaks dialect.
>
> >> >Some people speak the dialect called
> >> >"Standard" X, others speak a dialect identified with some subgroup
> >> >whether geographic, social, whatever.
>
> >> In one sense of the word 'dialect'. There are more senses.
>
> >Not in linguistics, there aren't.
>
> OK, so the following sentences are invalid in linguistics (including
> sociolinguistics):
>
> "He doesn't speak dialect, but standard Dutch."
"He doesn't speak a regional dialect, but standard Dutch."
> "Even regional TV channels in the Netherlands are almost exclusively
> in Dutch, dialects are not used; however, Omrop Fryslân uses Frisian
> whenever possible, in various dialects including Stadsfries."
"... local dialects are not used." (For the second one, the context is
clear.)
> "In many regions of the country, there is a continuum between Standard
> Dutch and various levels of dialect. People use what they feel is
> approriate for the situation."
"Levels of dialect"? Who wrote these examples?
Peter T. Daniels
> Fri, 15 Oct 2010 05:19:51 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
>
> >> >When our choir conductor catches us sliding, we have cause to be
> >> >grateful that she doesn't have a bigger baton.
>
> >> In Renaissance music with no vibrato at all?
>
> >???? Are you stuck in the mode of early Harnoncourt?
>
> I had never heard of Harnoncourt (but now have, thanks to Youtube; I
> like his Austrian accent, sorry, that's a dialect to you) and I
> haven't the slighest idea why you mention him.
Try to get it from the context.
Oh, that's right, you chose to ignore and remove the context.
I presume that in an interview or lecture, whatever you may have
heard, Harnoncourt spoke Standard German with a regional accent. I
doubt there's something that could be identified by so vague a term as
"Austrian dialect" _tout court_.
> By Renaissance I mean people like John Dunstable and Clemens non Papa.
Dunstable is Late Medieval, and anyway in England, the period is
usually called "Tudor" rather than "Renaissance" at all. Clemens is
indeed Renaissance and I don't know that I've heard anything of his.
But I certainly wouldn't want to hear Tallis, Byrd, and Dowland (the
leading Tudor composers) sung with no vibrato!
Peter T. Daniels
> Am 15.10.2010 22:14, schrieb Ruud Harmsen:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Fri, 15 Oct 2010 05:19:51 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
>
> >>>> When our choir conductor catches us sliding, we have cause to be
> >>>> grateful that she doesn't have a bigger baton.
>
> >>> In Renaissance music with no vibrato at all?
>
> >> ???? Are you stuck in the mode of early Harnoncourt?
>
> > I had never heard of Harnoncourt (but now have, thanks to Youtube; I
> > like his Austrian accent, sorry, that's a dialect to you) and I
> > haven't the slighest idea why you mention him.
>
> > By Renaissance I mean people like John Dunstable and Clemens non Papa.
>
> Harnoncourt was one of the pioneers of Historically Informed Performance
> from the 1950s on. He is still active as a conductor, lately in the more
> mainstream area.
That notorious b minor Mass came out early in my senior year in
college, or '71. (5 sides on 3 LPs -- the 6th side had no filler
content but was mirror-polished blank.)
Around that time three of us were collecting the three Mahler sets
that were coming out simultaneously -- I the Haitink (Philips),
someone else the Kubelik (DGG), and someone else the Solti (London).
(Now, amusingly, all three are owned by the same company and all three
are museum pieces. Maybe if I see them real cheap, I'll pick up the
Haitink digital remakes.) Of course we already had the Bernstein.
Which Sony put into a very, very cheap complete box a few years ago,
even including the Mahler's 8th first movement from the opening-night
concert at Philharmonic Hall in 1962; DG has never brought the price
down much on his digital set. My first Mahler CDs were the first set
in that format -- Inbal's live recordings on Denon.
peer mankpoot
(PDT):
> > > If the Dutch had put as much energy and enthusiasm into their New
> > > World colonies as they did in the East Indies, they might have done a
> > > lot better on the world stage!
> >
> > If my auntie had testicles she would have been my uncle.
>
> Highly unlikely!
I'm so sorry, I didn't know you had your irony glands removed.
Anyway, there is no way you can corroborate that the Netherlands would
have done better (whatever that is) on the world stage (whatever that
is) if it hadn't sold Manhattan in the 17th century. Given the history
of NL and USA, and given their present positions, I don't think they
did very bad in the first place, by the way, but even then.
"They might have", you say. Sure, they might have. They might have
not. Or something inbetween.
> > > (We were a lot closer, too.)
> >
> > "We"? How old are you then, Peter?
> >
> > I do hope you weren't serious.
>
> Eh? Pronouns don't have tense. I am a New Yorker, and there is no
> reason for me not to identify with New Yorkers (or New Amsterdamers)
> of 350 years ago.
There is no reason for the opposite either. I am an old Old
Amsterdamer but that doesn't mean I am part of a 17th century
population. Most of all it means that I have no part in what was or
wasn't accomplished by those people. I don't like to refer to the
Dutch of centuries ago with "we" - I am not one of them.
If, and if only, I am part of a certain group, it logically means that
it is a presently existing group. It's a bit like referring to your
favourite team with "us" and "we" - "we won", "we lost". No, "we" did
not, "they" did. "We" are just happy or sad.
I am sorry if I got carried away here but I detest this identification
thing, which btw often seems to be a one way street: taking credit for
the accomplishments of others who happened to be born on more or less
the same spot, but leaving the bad things on their account.
Maybe it's just me.
> Get out your world map, and measure the distance from, say, Rotterdam
> to New Amsterdam vs. the distance from Rotterdam to Batavia (whether
> you take the sea route around the Cape of Good Hope, or an overland
> route).
Yeah yeah yeah. Whatever.
--
peer mankpoot
I wonder if we'll smile in our coffins while loved ones mourn the day
- Pantera (I'm broken)
Joachim Pense
Am 16.10.2010 00:03, schrieb Peter T. Daniels:
>
> Dunstable is Late Medieval, and anyway in England, the period is
_Musically_ (On the line Machaut/Landini - Ciconia - Dunstable - Dufay -
Ockeghem), I would place him to the beginning Renaissance, or directly
on the borderline.
Joachim
Ruud Harmsen
<gram...@verizon.net>: in sci.lang:
>> OK, so the following sentences are invalid in linguistics (including
>> sociolinguistics):
>>
>> "He doesn't speak dialect, but standard Dutch."
>
>"He doesn't speak a regional dialect, but standard Dutch."
I'm not sure about English, but in Dutch, these two sentences have the
same meaning. Everybody understands both, and interprets them the
same.
>> "Even regional TV channels in the Netherlands are almost exclusively
>> in Dutch, dialects are not used; however, Omrop Frysl�n uses Frisian
>> whenever possible, in various dialects including Stadsfries."
>
>"... local dialects are not used."
There are other dialects than local dialects. So adding "dialect" is
superfluous.
Perhaps you have trouble understanding the difference, because you
live in the US? As I understand it, there are hardly any dialects in
the Americas.
>> "In many regions of the country, there is a continuum between Standard
>> Dutch and various levels of dialect. People use what they feel is
>> approriate for the situation."
>
>"Levels of dialect"? Who wrote these examples?
I made them up.
By "levels of dialect" I mean something like what was recently
discussed here (i.e., in sci.lang) in another thread, as
"tetraglossia". Try this:
http://groups.google.com/groups/search?q=tetraglossia+group:sci.lang&qt_s=Search+Groups
Of course, this too is hard to imagine someone living in the Americas.
Ruud Harmsen
<gram...@verizon.net>: in sci.lang:
>> OK, so the following sentences are invalid in linguistics (including
>> sociolinguistics):
>>
>> "He doesn't speak dialect, but standard Dutch."
>
>"He doesn't speak a regional dialect, but standard Dutch."
The Dutch word "dialectspreker" certainly isn't equivalent with "human
being". It would be if "dialect" were to be interpreted as you seem to
do, because every human being speaks a language, and so at least one
dialect.
http://www.kennislink.nl/publicaties/platpraters-schoppen-het-minder-ver
Oops, the author is Dimitri Tokmetzis, so obviously someone of Greek
descent. Does he master Dutch? I think he does.
Ruud Harmsen
<gram...@verizon.net>: in sci.lang:
>I presume that in an interview or lecture, whatever you may have
>heard, Harnoncourt spoke Standard German with a regional accent.
I watched and heard this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lNIC9pPZso
"Nikolaus Harnoncourt conducts Johann Strauss Fledermaus (The Bat - La
Chauve-Souris) - medici.tv"
It took me only one second, two words, two syllables to know he had to
be Austrian: he says "ich wei�" with [EI] instead of [aI].
>I
>doubt there's something that could be identified by so vague a term as
>"Austrian dialect" _tout court_.
There are many, or so I read in Wikipedia, some Bairisch, some
Alemannisch. But Nikolaus Harnoncourt in those Youtube clips speaks
Hochdeutsch with an accent, not dialect.
BTW, from what I wrote:
>> I had never heard of Harnoncourt (but now have, thanks to Youtube; I
>> like his Austrian accent, sorry, that's a dialect to you) and I
>> haven't the slighest idea why you mention him.
, how does it follow that there is a �Austrian dialect" _tout court_�?
I said I like his Austrian accent, which means he was _an_ Austrian
accent, which he has. There are many different ones, but I am not
knowledgeable enough about them to be able to localise them.
Ruud Harmsen
>> Dunstable is Late Medieval, and anyway in England, the period is
Sat, 16 Oct 2010 09:58:31 +0200: Joachim Pense <sn...@pense-mainz.eu>:
in sci.lang:
>_Musically_ (On the line Machaut/Landini - Ciconia - Dunstable - Dufay -
>Ockeghem), I would place him to the beginning Renaissance, or directly
>on the borderline.
Thanks for the names, some I didn't know yet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vedgS24uZk
Guillaume de Machaut - Douce dame, tant come vivray
Ruud Harmsen
in sci.lang:
>_Musically_ (On the line Machaut/Landini - Ciconia - Dunstable - Dufay -
>Ockeghem), I would place him to the beginning Renaissance, or directly
>on the borderline.
I remember around 1976, when you had to go to grammaphone record shops
to find out about music styles, I could never really find this type of
music, although I must have occasionally heard it on the radio. I just
didn't know where to look.
Now with Wikipedia and Youtube it is so easy, and there is so much to
enjoy! We live in a wonderful era.
Now listening to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vADjiznPm0 .
Guillaume de Machaut (1300-05 - 1377) - Kyrie, from ''Messe de Nostre
Dame''.
Ruud Harmsen
sci.lang:
>I said I like his Austrian accent, which means he has _an_ Austrian
>accent, which he has. There are many different ones, but I am not
>knowledgeable enough about them to be able to localise them.
I must have posted this before:
http://entdecke.austria.info/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHETf2U2A1s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6Z0tEgN_jc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_U1IEpWT-7c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9XJDQTvtJg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXllVwI1H5I
All Austrian, all different.
Keine Dialekte, alles Hochdeutsch, f�r mich ohne Probleme
verst�ndlich.
Peter T. Daniels
> Fri, 15 Oct 2010 14:54:25 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
>
> >> OK, so the following sentences are invalid in linguistics (including
> >> sociolinguistics):
>
> >> "He doesn't speak dialect, but standard Dutch."
>
> >"He doesn't speak a regional dialect, but standard Dutch."
>
> I'm not sure about English, but in Dutch, these two sentences have the
> same meaning. Everybody understands both, and interprets them the
> same.
If you're complaining about a factual claim, why did you make it in
your version in the first place?
> >> "Even regional TV channels in the Netherlands are almost exclusively
> >> in Dutch, dialects are not used; however, Omrop Fryslân uses Frisian
> >> whenever possible, in various dialects including Stadsfries."
>
> >"... local dialects are not used."
>
> There are other dialects than local dialects. So adding "dialect" is
> superfluous.
Then why did you put it into your example?
> Perhaps you have trouble understanding the difference, because you
> live in the US? As I understand it, there are hardly any dialects in
> the Americas.
Then you understand very wrong.
> >> "In many regions of the country, there is a continuum between Standard
> >> Dutch and various levels of dialect. People use what they feel is
> >> approriate for the situation."
>
> >"Levels of dialect"? Who wrote these examples?
>
> I made them up.
Ah. You might want to add a book on dialectology to that book on
general linguistics.
> By "levels of dialect" I mean something like what was recently
> discussed here (i.e., in sci.lang) in another thread, as
> "tetraglossia". Try this:http://groups.google.com/groups/search?q=tetraglossia+group:sci.lang&...
>
> Of course, this too is hard to imagine someone living in the Americas.
Perhaps your adjacent message contains a clarification of what you
intended there ...
Peter T. Daniels
> Sat, 16 Oct 2010 13:46:47 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>: in
> sci.lang:
>
> >I said I like his Austrian accent, which means he has _an_ Austrian
> >accent, which he has. There are many different ones, but I am not
> >knowledgeable enough about them to be able to localise them.
>
>
> All Austrian, all different.
>
> Keine Dialekte, alles Hochdeutsch, für mich ohne Probleme
> verständlich.
It's fun to watch you have an argument with yourself and end up
exactly where I led you five messages ago!
Ruud Harmsen
<gram...@verizon.net>: in sci.lang:
>> >> "Even regional TV channels in the Netherlands are almost exclusively
>> >> in Dutch, dialects are not used; however, Omrop Frysl�n uses Frisian
>> >> whenever possible, in various dialects including Stadsfries."
>>
>> >"... local dialects are not used."
>>
>> There are other dialects than local dialects. So adding "dialect" is
>> superfluous.
>
>Then why did you put it into your example?
Sorry, I meant "adding local is superfluous" (which was obvious to
some, though not all, also given my reputation, in some news groups at
least, for stupidly using wrong words and leaving essential words
out.)
>> Perhaps you have trouble understanding the difference, because you
>> live in the US? As I understand it, there are hardly any dialects in
>> the Americas.
>
>Then you understand very wrong.
The dialects in the Americas are so close to the standard languages
that they do not deserve to be called dialects. They are largely
accents, and even the pronunciation differences are usually minute.
>> >> "In many regions of the country, there is a continuum between Standard
>> >> Dutch and various levels of dialect. People use what they feel is
>> >> approriate for the situation."
>>
>> >"Levels of dialect"? Who wrote these examples?
>>
>> I made them up.
>
>Ah. You might want to add a book on dialectology to that book on
>general linguistics.
Of course. An amateur dared speak in front of a Learned Master! He
should not be not allowed to go on until he has read enough Learned
Books!
Ruud Harmsen
<gram...@verizon.net>: in sci.lang:
>On Oct 16, 7:58�am, Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
>> Sat, 16 Oct 2010 13:46:47 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>: in
>> sci.lang:
>>
>> >I said I like his Austrian accent, which means he has _an_ Austrian
>> >accent, which he has. There are many different ones, but I am not
>> >knowledgeable enough about them to be able to localise them.
>>
>> I must have posted this before:http://entdecke.austria.info/http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHETf2U2A1shttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6Z0tEgN_jchttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_U1IEpWT-7chttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9XJDQTvtJghttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXllVwI1H5I
>>
>> All Austrian, all different.
>>
>> Keine Dialekte, alles Hochdeutsch, f�r mich ohne Probleme
>> verst�ndlich.
>
>It's fun to watch you have an argument with yourself and end up
>exactly where I led you five messages ago!
???? Please provide a message-ID and/or an explanation.
Ruud Harmsen
<gram...@verizon.net>: in sci.lang:
This may be a case of false friends. The online Merriam-Webster
doesn't have the sense "as opposed to standard language" at all:
===
a : a regional variety of language distinguished by features of
vocabulary, grammar, and pronunciation from other regional varieties
and constituting together with them a single language <the Doric
dialect of ancient Greek>
b : one of two or more cognate languages <French and Italian are
Romance dialects>
c : a variety of a language used by the members of a group <such
dialects as politics and advertising � Philip Howard>
d : a variety of language whose identity is fixed by a factor other
than geography (as social class) <spoke a rough peasant dialect>
e : register 4c
f : a version of a computer programming language
/===
My British dictionaries, Collins and Oxford Concise, do suggest such a
meaning, but not very cleary.
On the other hand the Dutch dictionary Van Dale stresses the
opposition between dialect and standard language immediately:
"1) de taal van een streek of plaats (of van een sociale groep) voor
zover ze verschilt van de algemene of landstaal"
("[..] insofar as it differs from the general or national language").
The German Duden Universalw�rterbuch leans towards the English
dictionaries of isn't very clear about it:
===
Di|a|le?kt, der; -[e]s, -e [lat. dialectos < griech. di�lektos =
Ausdrucksweise, zu: dial�gesthai = sich bereden; sprechen]: a)
Mundart; Gruppe von Mundarten mit gewissen sprachlichen
Gemeinsamkeiten: Els�sser D.; ein norddeutscher D.; [unverkennbaren,
breiten] D. sprechen; in unverf�lschtem D.; b) (Sprachw.) regionale
Variante einer Sprache.
/===
Das Wort �Mundart� hat jedoch die von mir erzielte Bedeutung:
===
Mu?nd|art, die [f�r Dialekt]: innerhalb einer Sprachgemeinschaft auf
ein engeres Gebiet beschr�nkte, von der Hochsprache in verschiedener
Hinsicht abweichende, urspr�ngliche, meist nur gesprochene Sprache;
Dialekt.
/===
"[...] differing from the Standard Language in several aspects [...]".
Ruud Harmsen
sci.lang:
>Das Wort �Mundart� hat jedoch die von mir erzielte Bedeutung:
>===
>Mu?nd|art, die [f�r Dialekt]: innerhalb einer Sprachgemeinschaft auf
>ein engeres Gebiet beschr�nkte, von der Hochsprache in verschiedener
>Hinsicht abweichende, urspr�ngliche, meist nur gesprochene Sprache;
>Dialekt.
>/===
>
>"[...] differing from the Standard Language in several aspects [...]".
Dutch also has the word "streektaal", literally "region language".
Mike Lyle
> Peter T. Daniels schreef/citeerde op Fri, 15 Oct 2010 05:16:57 -0700
> (PDT):
>
>> Well, your guys were busy doing something else when the Brits decided
>> they wanted New Amsterdam!
>
> And no-one in their right mind would rise against Brits in America, of
> course.
...apart from other Brits, which is what happened. Crafty Albion, as
usual: couldn't lose.
--
Mike.
Nathan Sanders
Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> The dialects in the Americas are so close to the standard languages
They are (mostly) mutually intelligible, but they are still noticeable
different.
I do find certain dialects, like Appalachian English, to be almost
completely incomprehensible if I don't strain my ears, even though I
grew up in the Appalachian mountains. Here's a clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03iwAY4KlIU
> that they do not deserve to be called dialects. They are largely
> accents, and even the pronunciation differences are usually minute.
The differences in pronunciation between speakers with the Northern
Cities and the Southern Shifts are *very* different. Northern Cities
"hot" and Southern "height" have almost exactly the same vowel!
It's true that there aren't an overwhelming number of syntactic or
morphological differences between American dialects, but there are
still plenty to choose from:
double modals (Southern)
I might could do that.
`I might be able to do that.'
habitual marker "be" (AAVE)
He be watching TV at 9pm.
`He's usually watching TV at 9pm.'
lack of "be" for present progressive (AAVE):
He watching TV at 9pm.
`He is (will be) watching TV at 9pm.'
intensifier "hella" ((Northern) Californian) versus
"wicked" (New England) and
"really" and "very" (standard):
That's hella/wicked/really/very cool.
`That's very cool.'
That guy hella/wicked/really/*very stinks.
`That guy really stinks.'
There were hella/*wicked/*really/*very people at the party.
`There were a lot of people at the party.'
"needs" + past participle (Midwestern and others)
My car needs washed.
`My car needs to be washed / needs washing.'
"stand on line" (NYC)
We stood on line for hours before they let us into the show.
`We stood in line for hours before they let us into the show.'
negative concord (many dialects)
I didn't see nobody.
`I didn't see anybody.'
"ain't" (many dialects)
I ain't going.
`I'm not going.'
(note: fills gap due to missing *amn't)
There are a large number of semantic/lexical differences that have
nothing to do with phonology (soda/pop/coke, green/string beans,
sneakers/tennis shoes/running shoes, etc.).
Nathan
--
Department of Linguistics
Swarthmore College
Peter T. Daniels
> "needs" + past participle (Midwestern and others)
> My car needs washed.
> `My car needs to be washed / needs washing.'
Pittsburgh, actually. Not Chicago.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
> In article <et5jb694gtanh87m0...@4ax.com>,
> Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
>
>> The dialects in the Americas are so close to the standard languages
>
> They are (mostly) mutually intelligible, but they are still noticeable
> different.
>
> I do find certain dialects, like Appalachian English, to be almost
> completely incomprehensible if I don't strain my ears, even though I
> grew up in the Appalachian mountains. Here's a clip:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03iwAY4KlIU
>
>> that they do not deserve to be called dialects. They are largely
>> accents, and even the pronunciation differences are usually minute.
>
> The differences in pronunciation between speakers with the Northern
> Cities and the Southern Shifts are *very* different.
I once stopped at a gas station somewhere along the highway in
Virginia, about half way between Washington DC and Durham, and popped
into the shop there to buy something to eat. The (white) girl behind
the counter couldn't understand a word that I said, and I couldn't
understand a word she said. She was, I suppose, speaking English, but
what she thought I was speaking I have no idea.
--
athel
Joachim Pense
Am 16.10.2010 18:40, schrieb Nathan Sanders:
>
> It's true that there aren't an overwhelming number of syntactic or
> morphological differences between American dialects, but there are
> still plenty to choose from:
>
> double modals (Southern)
> I might could do that.
> `I might be able to do that.'
Any relation to Scots?
>
> habitual marker "be" (AAVE)
> He be watching TV at 9pm.
> `He's usually watching TV at 9pm.'
A preserved old form?
>
> negative concord (many dialects)
> I didn't see nobody.
> `I didn't see anybody.'
Doesn't that occur universally? I wonder if the situation exists where
this construction is common in low-status colloquial language but
despised in high-status one.
>
> "ain't" (many dialects)
> I ain't going.
> `I'm not going.'
> (note: fills gap due to missing *amn't)
That is often linked with Afro-American language. Is that justified.
Joachim
Alan Munn
Nathan Sanders <san...@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> In article <et5jb694gtanh87m0...@4ax.com>,
> Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
>
> > The dialects in the Americas are so close to the standard languages
>
> They are (mostly) mutually intelligible, but they are still noticeable
> different.
>
> I do find certain dialects, like Appalachian English, to be almost
> completely incomprehensible if I don't strain my ears, even though I
> grew up in the Appalachian mountains. Here's a clip:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03iwAY4KlIU
As they say there's a lot of vocabulary from Scottish English there.
Some words are familiar to me:
poke
(also the expression "a pig in a poke". Is this familiar to Americans?)
plumb
I wonder if there's any connection between 'si-goggly' and a 'googly'
(cricket term). Oxford says the latter's origin is unknown; the two
words share some semantics.
>
> > that they do not deserve to be called dialects. They are largely
> > accents, and even the pronunciation differences are usually minute.
>
> The differences in pronunciation between speakers with the Northern
> Cities and the Southern Shifts are *very* different. Northern Cities
> "hot" and Southern "height" have almost exactly the same vowel!
Here's a real world example of Canadian Raising meets Southern
monophtongization. This happened to me fairly frequently when I taught
at UNC Chapel Hill.
[Location: place that makes sandwiches]
Me: I'd like a ham and cheese sandwich please.
Them: White or wheat [hwA? @r hwi?]
Me: White [wVI?}
And I'd get 'wheat'.
(My raised /aI/ was much closer to the Southern /i/ than to the
monothongized southern /A/.)
>
> It's true that there aren't an overwhelming number of syntactic or
> morphological differences between American dialects, but there are
> still plenty to choose from:
>
> double modals (Southern)
> I might could do that.
> `I might be able to do that.'
Also in Scottish English.
And also leads to the following construction (if a student of mine is
correct:)
John was seen leave.
John had dishes to break on him.
(Which are * in standard English without 'to'.)
>
>
> "needs" + past participle (Midwestern and others)
> My car needs washed.
> `My car needs to be washed / needs washing.'
Also in Scottish English.
>
> "stand on line" (NYC)
> We stood on line for hours before they let us into the show.
> `We stood in line for hours before they let us into the show.'
>
> negative concord (many dialects)
> I didn't see nobody.
> `I didn't see anybody.'
Also negative inversion constructions:
Can't nobody beat him.
`Nobody can beat him'
>
> "ain't" (many dialects)
> I ain't going.
> `I'm not going.'
> (note: fills gap due to missing *amn't)
Actually, it doesn't fill this gap always. In many dialects, including
AAE, 'ain't' substitutes for 'didn't' as well.
He ain't done nothing.
He ain't seen nobody.
Alan
Brian M. Scott
<sn...@pense-mainz.eu> wrote in
<news:i9clei$h8m$03$1...@news.t-online.com> in
alt.usage.english,sci.lang:
> Am 16.10.2010 18:40, schrieb Nathan Sanders:
>> It's true that there aren't an overwhelming number of syntactic or
>> morphological differences between American dialects, but there are
>> still plenty to choose from:
>> double modals (Southern)
>> I might could do that.
>> `I might be able to do that.'
> Any relation to Scots?
There are significant lexical and syntactic differences, and
in both varieties the written attestations are too late to
support the hypothesis of direct transmission. The current
view, I believe, is that the southern US double models are
partly an independent development and partly a continuation
of the double modal construction in the abstract.
>> habitual marker "be" (AAVE)
>> He be watching TV at 9pm.
>> `He's usually watching TV at 9pm.'
> A preserved old form?
What would it preserve?
>> negative concord (many dialects)
>> I didn't see nobody.
>> `I didn't see anybody.'
> Doesn't that occur universally? I wonder if the situation
> exists where this construction is common in low-status
> colloquial language but despised in high-status one.
Certainly.
>> "ain't" (many dialects)
>> I ain't going.
>> `I'm not going.'
>> (note: fills gap due to missing *amn't)
> That is often linked with Afro-American language. Is that justified.
No.
Brian
Nathan Sanders
<f51e42fb-3e28-4b00...@u10g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>,
Pittsburgh is covered by "and others".
> Not Chicago.
I didn't mean to imply is was common to *all* Midwestern dialects.
I've heard it in Indiana, and I've seen it reported for Illinois,
Ohio, Iowa, and MIssouri.
Brian M. Scott
<am...@msu.edu> wrote in
<news:amunn-AC0F8F....@reserved-multicast-range-NOT-delegated.example.com>
in alt.usage.english,sci.lang:
> In article <sanders-A98D0C...@74.sub-97-136-209.myvzw.com>,
> Nathan Sanders <san...@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>> In article <et5jb694gtanh87m0...@4ax.com>,
>> Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
>>> The dialects in the Americas are so close to the standard languages
>> They are (mostly) mutually intelligible, but they are still noticeable
>> different.
>> I do find certain dialects, like Appalachian English, to be almost
>> completely incomprehensible if I don't strain my ears, even though I
>> grew up in the Appalachian mountains. Here's a clip:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03iwAY4KlIU
> As they say there's a lot of vocabulary from Scottish English there.
> Some words are familiar to me:
> poke
> (also the expression "a pig in a poke". Is this familiar
> to Americans?)
Can't speak for others, but I've known it since I was a kid.
(And was amused when in high school I discovered that German
turns the pig into a cat.)
> plumb
> I wonder if there's any connection between 'si-goggly' and
> a 'googly' (cricket term). Oxford says the latter's
> origin is unknown; the two words share some semantics.
The word seems to be more commonly found in the form
<sigogglin> (or <sygogglin>). There's also <antigog(g)lin>,
with the same meaning. I don't have access to DARE, but at
<http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/2007/08/little-rewriting.html>
I found this:
According to the Dictionary of American Regional English,
Volume 1, "antigoglin" -- which has various spellings
(annigoglin, antegogglin' and antigogglin(g)) -- is used
as either adjective or adverb, with the meaning "askew,
out of plumb" and "Slantwise, diagonal(ly)," and comes
from "anti-" (against, counter) and "goggling" (from
goggle, to shake, tremble).
<http://www.nytimes.com/2000/07/02/magazine/the-way-we-live-now-7-2-00-on-language-dare.html>
quotes Frederic Cassidy (of DARE):
The older sense of gogglin' refers to eyes that squint;
people who squint don't see things straight. They
get things crooked, or antigogglin'.
According to
<www.ncsu.edu/linguistics/docs/curriculum/teacher_lo-res_IntroandDay1.pdf>,
<antigogglin> is found in Pittsburgh and the (U.S.) South
Midland region.
>>> that they do not deserve to be called dialects. They are
>>> largely accents, and even the pronunciation differences
>>> are usually minute.
>> The differences in pronunciation between speakers with
>> the Northern Cities and the Southern Shifts are *very*
>> different. Northern Cities "hot" and Southern "height"
>> have almost exactly the same vowel!
> Here's a real world example of Canadian Raising meets
> Southern monophtongization. This happened to me fairly
> frequently when I taught at UNC Chapel Hill.
> [Location: place that makes sandwiches]
> Me: I'd like a ham and cheese sandwich please.
> Them: White or wheat [hwA? @r hwi?]
> Me: White [wVI?}
> And I'd get 'wheat'.
> (My raised /aI/ was much closer to the Southern /i/ than to the
> monothongized southern /A/.)
Young girl who was regularly exposed to speakers of three
dialects: 'Daddy, when I go up a hill, do I cl[A:]m it,
cl[VI]m it, or cl[AI]m it?' (Her father told me the story
many years ago.)
>> It's true that there aren't an overwhelming number of
>> syntactic or morphological differences between American
>> dialects, but there are still plenty to choose from:
>> double modals (Southern)
>> I might could do that.
>> `I might be able to do that.'
> Also in Scottish English.
But often different ones, e.g., 'will can', which is rare in
the U.S.
> And also leads to the following construction (if a student
> of mine is correct:)
> John was seen leave.
> John had dishes to break on him.
> (Which are * in standard English without 'to'.)
I think that you mean that the second one is * WITH the
'to'.
[...]
Brian
Ruud Harmsen
<san...@alum.mit.edu>: in sci.lang:
>In article <et5jb694gtanh87m0...@4ax.com>,
> Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
>
>> The dialects in the Americas are so close to the standard languages
>
>They are (mostly) mutually intelligible, but they are still noticeable
>different.
But nowhere as different as those in say England, Scotland, Germany,
Switzerland, Austria.
>The differences in pronunciation between speakers with the Northern
>Cities and the Southern Shifts are *very* different. Northern Cities
>"hot" and Southern "height" have almost exactly the same vowel!
That doesn't make it anything other than accents.
Alan Munn
This makes more sense. And standard English still has "goggling". (and
goggles).
Hmm. If it were really Canadian raising, the pronunciation of 'climb'
would be with [AI] not [VI] since it's conditioned by the following
voiceless consonant, which [m] isn't.
>
> >> It's true that there aren't an overwhelming number of
> >> syntactic or morphological differences between American
> >> dialects, but there are still plenty to choose from:
>
> >> double modals (Southern)
> >> I might could do that.
> >> `I might be able to do that.'
>
> > Also in Scottish English.
>
> But often different ones, e.g., 'will can', which is rare in
> the U.S.
Yes, that might could be true. :-) I really only have 'might could',
which is also fine in Southern English. There's also quite a bit of
variability in the acceptability of the various combinations within
Southern English; it wouldn't surprise me if there is a similar sort of
variability in the Scottish ones. I think there are also differences in
which modal can move in questions. These differences would definitely
fit with your earlier comment about the unlikeliness of the American
ones coming from the Scottish ones.
>
> > And also leads to the following construction (if a student
> > of mine is correct:)
>
> > John was seen leave.
> > John had dishes to break on him.
>
> > (Which are * in standard English without 'to'.)
>
> I think that you mean that the second one is * WITH the
> 'to'.
Yes, indeed.
Alan
Nathan Sanders
Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> Sat, 16 Oct 2010 12:40:51 -0400: Nathan Sanders
> <san...@alum.mit.edu>: in sci.lang:
>
> >In article <et5jb694gtanh87m0...@4ax.com>,
> > Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> >
> >> The dialects in the Americas are so close to the standard languages
> >
> >They are (mostly) mutually intelligible, but they are still noticeable
> >different.
>
> But nowhere as different as those in say England, Scotland, Germany,
> Switzerland, Austria.
Once someone comes up with an objective way to measure dialect
differences, we can test that statement.
> >The differences in pronunciation between speakers with the Northern
> >Cities and the Southern Shifts are *very* different. Northern Cities
> >"hot" and Southern "height" have almost exactly the same vowel!
>
> That doesn't make it anything other than accents.
There are many more differences besides the vowels.
Ruud Harmsen
<san...@alum.mit.edu>: in sci.lang:
>I do find certain dialects, like Appalachian English, to be almost
>completely incomprehensible if I don't strain my ears, even though I
>grew up in the Appalachian mountains. Here's a clip:
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03iwAY4KlIU
Interesting!
Hard to understand as you say, but eventually I succeed in most cases.
Ruud Harmsen
<b.s...@csuohio.edu>: in sci.lang:
>> poke
>> (also the expression "a pig in a poke". Is this familiar
>> to Americans?)
>
>Can't speak for others, but I've known it since I was a kid.
>(And was amused when in high school I discovered that German
>turns the pig into a cat.)
http://nl.wiktionary.org/wiki/een_kat_in_de_zak_kopen
Alan Munn
Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
The OED says the term comes from people who would trick people by
selling a cat in a bag to someone who was expecting a pig ( presumably a
piglet, otherwise you'd need one hell of a big cat (not to mention the
size of the poke needed :-) )
Alan
Joachim Pense
Am 16.10.2010 19:42, schrieb Brian M. Scott:
>
>>> habitual marker "be" (AAVE)
>>> He be watching TV at 9pm.
>>> `He's usually watching TV at 9pm.'
>
>> A preserved old form?
>
> What would it preserve?
>
"be" meaning "is" in older forms of English. Still in some idomatic
expressions (which I fail to recall right now).
Joachim
Brian M. Scott
<sn...@pense-mainz.eu> wrote in
<news:i9cvs2$dlo$00$1...@news.t-online.com> in
alt.usage.english,sci.lang:
>>> A preserved old form?
>> What would it preserve?
But dialectal 3rd person singular <be> for <is> is very
different from <be> as a habitual marker.
Brian
Brian M. Scott
<am...@msu.edu> wrote in
<news:amunn-E096A2....@reserved-multicast-range-NOT-delegated.example.com>
in alt.usage.english,sci.lang:
> In article <1hxlbllanuusl$.1nzknmg40ae8u$.d...@40tude.net>,
> "Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
>> On Sat, 16 Oct 2010 13:30:06 -0400, Alan Munn
>> <am...@msu.edu> wrote in
>> <news:amunn-AC0F8F....@reserved-multicast-range-NOT-delegated.examp
>> le.com>
>> in alt.usage.english,sci.lang:
[...]
>>> (My raised /aI/ was much closer to the Southern /i/ than to the
>>> monothongized southern /A/.)
>> Young girl who was regularly exposed to speakers of three
>> dialects: 'Daddy, when I go up a hill, do I cl[A:]m it,
>> cl[VI]m it, or cl[AI]m it?' (Her father told me the story
>> many years ago.)
>
> Hmm. If it were really Canadian raising, the pronunciation of 'climb'
> would be with [AI] not [VI] since it's conditioned by the following
> voiceless consonant, which [m] isn't.
Actually, now that I play it back in memory, that one was
actually 'cl[A.I]m' or 'cl[OIm]', which I think is found in
places on the Atlantic coast.
[...]
Brian
Brian M. Scott
<san...@alum.mit.edu> wrote in
<news:sanders-F2B7CE...@74.sub-97-136-209.myvzw.com>
in alt.usage.english,sci.lang:
>> Pittsburgh, actually.
>> Not Chicago.
I can certainly vouch for it in Cleveland. Of course we're
only a couple of hours from Pittsburgh.
Brian
Joachim Pense
That's right, now you pointed to it. Any historical explanations for
this form?
Joachim
Brian M. Scott
<sn...@pense-mainz.eu> wrote in
<news:i9d0t1$fmg$00$1...@news.t-online.com> in
alt.usage.english,sci.lang:
>>>>> A preserved old form?
>>>> What would it preserve?
Disputed. One theory is that it developed from Caribbean
creoles:
(1) He (d)a quiet.
(2) He does quiet.
(3) He does be quiet.
(5) He be quiet.
In (1), <(d)a> is a creole habitual marker. In (2) it's
replaced by English <does>. Then a copula is introduced,
and finally <does> is deleted as part of a more general
process of phonological reduction, leaving <be> as a
habitual marker.
Brian
Brian M. Scott
<san...@alum.mit.edu> wrote in
<news:sanders-A98D0C...@74.sub-97-136-209.myvzw.com>
in alt.usage.english,sci.lang:
[...]
> I do find certain dialects, like Appalachian English, to
> be almost completely incomprehensible if I don't strain
> my ears, even though I grew up in the Appalachian
> mountains. [...]
When I was in the army the colonel whose clerk I was got a
new driver. He was a really nice kid, but he was from the
Appalachian back of beyond, and for the first couple of
weeks the only person in the office who could reliably
understand him was the sergeant major, who'd grown up in the
same general area.
Brian
Peter T. Daniels
> On Sat, 16 Oct 2010 13:53:21 -0400, Nathan Sanders
> <news:sanders-F2B7CE...@74.sub-97-136-209.myvzw.com>
> in alt.usage.english,sci.lang:
>
> > In article
> > "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >> On Oct 16, 12:40 pm, Nathan Sanders <sand...@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> >>> "needs" + past participle (Midwestern and others)
> >>> My car needs washed.
> >>> `My car needs to be washed / needs washing.'
> >> Pittsburgh, actually.
> > Pittsburgh is covered by "and others".
> >> Not Chicago.
> > I didn't mean to imply is was common to *all* Midwestern dialects.
> > I've heard it in Indiana, and I've seen it reported for Illinois,
> > Ohio, Iowa, and MIssouri.
>
> I can certainly vouch for it in Cleveland. Of course we're
> only a couple of hours from Pittsburgh.
Pittsburgh is spreading: Labov already reported quite a while ago that
Erie is exempt from Northern Cities Shift, while the urbs on either
side (Buffalo and Cleveland? (where do Youngstown and Akron fall?))
have it.
Plus northern (at least) WV.
benl...@ihug.co.nz
> On Sat, 16 Oct 2010 14:52:21 -0400, Alan Munn
> <am...@msu.edu> wrote in
> <news:amunn-E096A2....@reserved-multicast-range-NOT-delegated.example.com>
> in alt.usage.english,sci.lang:
>
> > "Brian M. Scott" <b.sc...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
> >> On Sat, 16 Oct 2010 13:30:06 -0400, Alan Munn
> >> <am...@msu.edu> wrote in
> >> <news:amunn-AC0F8F....@reserved-multicast-range-NOT-delegated.examp
> >> le.com>
> >> in alt.usage.english,sci.lang:
>
> [...]
>
> >>> (My raised /aI/ was much closer to the Southern /i/ than to the
> >>> monothongized southern /A/.)
> >> Young girl who was regularly exposed to speakers of three
> >> dialects: 'Daddy, when I go up a hill, do I cl[A:]m it,
> >> cl[VI]m it, or cl[AI]m it?' (Her father told me the story
> >> many years ago.)
>
> > Hmm. If it were really Canadian raising, the pronunciation of 'climb'
> > would be with [AI] not [VI] since it's conditioned by the following
> > voiceless consonant, which [m] isn't.
>
> Actually, now that I play it back in memory, that one was
> actually 'cl[A.I]m' or 'cl[OIm]', which I think is found in
> places on the Atlantic coast.
>
> [...]
>
> Brian
It's stereotypical for the "Hoi Toiders" of coastal North Carolina.
Jerry Friedman
> On Sat, 16 Oct 2010 13:53:21 -0400, Nathan Sanders
> <news:sanders-F2B7CE...@74.sub-97-136-209.myvzw.com>
> in alt.usage.english,sci.lang:
>
> > In article
> > "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >> On Oct 16, 12:40 pm, Nathan Sanders <sand...@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> >>> "needs" + past participle (Midwestern and others)
> >>> My car needs washed.
> >>> `My car needs to be washed / needs washing.'
> >> Pittsburgh, actually.
> > Pittsburgh is covered by "and others".
> >> Not Chicago.
> > I didn't mean to imply is was common to *all* Midwestern dialects.
> > I've heard it in Indiana, and I've seen it reported for Illinois,
> > Ohio, Iowa, and MIssouri.
>
> I can certainly vouch for it in Cleveland. Of course we're
> only a couple of hours from Pittsburgh.
Interesting. I don't recall hearing it in Cleveland. (On the other
hand, in my childhood my family often visited my mother's family in
Pittsburgh, and I don't recall it from there, either.)
My boss, who's from near Lubbock, Texas, says "This needs cleaned,"
etc.
--
Jerry Friedman