Clovers vs. Clover
Mardon
I found 2 four-leaf clovers in the field of clover that is next to my
house.
How can the plural of clover be both "clovers" and "clover"?
BTW, this question arose today as I was composing an email to send to
my sister. It to go along with this photo that I took today:
http://www.JustPhotos.ca/oldphotos/macro/images/012763.jpg
Robert Bannister
> The following sounds a bit strange to me:
> I found 2 four-leaf clovers in the field of clover that is next to my
> house.
>
> How can the plural of clover be both "clovers" and "clover"?
>
> BTW, this question arose today as I was composing an email to send to
> my sister.
You are getting mixed up between mass nouns and count nouns. Clover,
like beer, does not normally have a plural, but just has you sample a
number of different beers, you can have different clovers. "Two
four-leaf clovers" is a plural; "a lot of clover" is not a plural.
--
Rob Bannister
Solo Thesailor
Would you say "a field of rose" then, or "a field of roses"? "A field
of tulip" or "a field of tulips"? I have not seen much of the former
form but very frequently the latter.
Also another one that has always puzzled me. Here's an example of both
forms being used in one short article on
http://axp.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/PESTNOTES/pn7437.html
...
Dwarf mistletoes are smaller plants than broadleaf mistletoes, ...
...
Broadleaf mistletoe absorbs both water and mineral nutrients from its
host trees.
....
The most effective way to control mistletoe and prevent its spread
is...
...
Mistletoes infecting a major branch or the trunk where it cannot be
pruned may be controlled by cutting ....
...
Broadleaf mistletoe requires light and will die within a couple of
years without it.
...
????
Solo Thesailor
http://sailingstoriesandtips.blogspot.com
Alec McKenzie
> The following sounds a bit strange to me:
> I found 2 four-leaf clovers in the field of clover that is next to my
> house.
>
> How can the plural of clover be both "clovers" and "clover"?
The problem is of your own making. Why not just say:
I found two four-leaf clovers in the field next to my house.
--
Alec McKenzie
usenet@<surname>.me.uk
Peter Duncanson
<notforspa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Would you say "a field of rose" then, or "a field of roses"? "A field
>of tulip" or "a field of tulips"? I have not seen much of the former
>form but very frequently the latter.
I would say "a rose field" or "a field of roses", and "a tulip
field" or "a field of tulips".
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Mike Lyle
Solo Thesailor wrote:
> Robert Bannister wrote:
> > Mardon wrote:
> >
> > > The following sounds a bit strange to me:
> > > I found 2 four-leaf clovers in the field of clover that is next to my
> > > house.
> > >
> > > How can the plural of clover be both "clovers" and "clover"?
> > >
> > > BTW, this question arose today as I was composing an email to send to
> > > my sister.
> >
> > You are getting mixed up between mass nouns and count nouns. Clover,
> > like beer, does not normally have a plural, but just has you sample a
> > number of different beers, you can have different clovers. "Two
> > four-leaf clovers" is a plural; "a lot of clover" is not a plural.
As Rob says, there are many species of clover: red clover, small white
clover, alsike clover, etc are all clovers. Because of the way they
grow, we usually speak of them in the same way we speak of grass(es):
"a field of grass", "a patch of clover". The case of "four-leafed
clover" or "four-leaf clover" is different: it would be awkward to say
something like "a leaf of clover with four leaflets", and since we are
speaking of a single object, the singular is natural.
>
> Would you say "a field of rose" then, or "a field of roses"? "A field
> of tulip" or "a field of tulips"? I have not seen much of the former
> form but very frequently the latter.
Roses and tulips generally grow as visibly individual plants rather
than in patches or clumps, so we usually treat the nouns as countable.
Not always, though: a professional might well say "a field of rose", as
with "a field of wheat", and we could say "there's a mass of wild rose
in the hedge".
"Flower" and other names of plant parts can also be treated as either
countable or uncountable. "There aren't any flowers in my garden";
"There's not much flower on the sweet peas yet". But "She gave me a
bunch of flowers".
>
> Also another one that has always puzzled me. Here's an example of both
> forms being used in one short article on
> http://axp.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/PESTNOTES/pn7437.html
> ...
> Dwarf mistletoes are smaller plants than broadleaf mistletoes, ...
That refers to several distinct species. In scientific language we
usually prefer to treat these words as countable.
[...]
> ...
> Broadleaf mistletoe requires light and will die within a couple of
> years without it.
In this case the writer is generalising, and it doesn't matter to him
at that moment whether he's referring to one species or more than one.
If he's thinking of the British Isles, there's only one species anyhow.
--
Mike.
John Dean
> The following sounds a bit strange to me:
> I found 2 four-leaf clovers in the field of clover that is next to my
> house.
>
> How can the plural of clover be both "clovers" and "clover"?
>
Like "I saw several large fishes swimming through a school of smaller fish"?
Mysterious, huh?
--
John Dean
Oxford
Donna Richoux
> The following sounds a bit strange to me:
> I found 2 four-leaf clovers in the field of clover that is next to my
> house.
>
> How can the plural of clover be both "clovers" and "clover"?
Similar to many other nouns that can be both countable and uncountable.
I'm not sure if you are asking about the entire concept, or just the
highly specific application to plants.
A field of grass
Vetch and timothy are two different grasses.
A glass of beer
This bar sells six different beers.
You use one form for the general undifferentiated material, and the
other for a collection of varities or species or individuals.
I could say more but I'll pause there for now.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Mike Lyle
Donna Richoux wrote:
[...]
> Vetch and timothy are two different grasses.[...]
Oy!
--
Mike.
R J Valentine
Kvetch, kvetch, kvetch. Do us all a fava and be nice to Donna.
--
rjv
Will
I'd say "I saw several large fish swimming through a school of smaller
fish."
Will.
Mardon
> You are getting mixed up between mass nouns and count nouns.
<*snip*>
Thanks to you and the other respondents for the replies. I
understand now that I've been misunderstanding the basics of mass
nouns and count nouns. It was the same problem I had with a previous
post about shrubbery. I think I finally understand it now. Thanks
again!
Donna Richoux
All right, I made that up without looking it up. I should have picked an
example I know better. The wildflower wikke/vetch here isn't grassy at
all, but has small compound leaves and pretty flowers.
Yet still I remember "vetch" being used as a lawn plant, and this site
selling Lawn Seeds agrees with me:
http://www.griesseed.com/lawnseeds_fertilizers.shtml
--
There's always something -- Donna Richoux
Evan Kirshenbaum
> The case of "four-leafed clover" or "four-leaf clover" is different:
> it would be awkward to say something like "a leaf of clover with
> four leaflets", and since we are speaking of a single object, the
> singular is natural.
Actually, it would be no more awkward to speak of "a <something> of
clover" than a blade of grass. We just happen not to do it. I looked
in the OED to see when we started talking about "a clover" to mean an
individual stalk (blade, sprig, stem), but they don't actually have
any mention of such a sense. I'm not sure it's all that common to do
so unless you specify the number of leaves.
As to why it's a mass noun rather than a count noun, most plants
smaller than trees are considered as mass nouns unless (this is the
best rule I can come up with) either they are grown for their
individual flowers or they are grown for (human) food and the food
is/was served whole. So beans, peppers, tomatoes, potatoes, carrots,
radishes,c roses, orchids, and daisies, but wheat, rye, fennel, thyme,
and spinach. "Pease", historically mashed into a porridge and treated
as a mass noun, was reanalyzed as "peas", a count noun, and I suspect
that this had to do with them starting to be served whole.
This is an example of a Whorfian "cryptotype" or "covert category", a
set of words that aren't overtly marked, but which pattern together
grammatically and have some sort of semantic relationship. This one
is similar to another cryptotype Whorf apparently used as an example:
fish. If you would make a meal of more than one of them (anchovies,
sardines, sand dabs), they tend to be count nouns, while if you would
eat one or a part of one (salmon, trout, tuna, flounder, cod), they
tend to be mass nouns.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
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kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
John Dean
Ah - like the miracle of the five loaves and the two fish? Excellent. You
know, some claim that miracle was the origin of today's Fishes and Chips
shops.
--
John Dean
Oxford
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Will wrote:
>> John Dean wrote:
>>> Like "I saw several large fishes swimming through a school of
>>> smaller fish"? Mysterious, huh?
>>
>> I'd say "I saw several large fish swimming through a school of
>> smaller fish."
>
> Ah - like the miracle of the five loaves and the two fish?
Actually, that's how the New International Version and the English
Standard Version give it
NIV: "We have here only five loaves of bread and two fish," the
answered...Taking the five loaves and the two fish ...
ESV: They said to him, "We have only five loaves here and two
fish"...taking the five loaves and the two fish ...
I suspect that most people, when explaining the "miracle of the loaves
and the fishes" will say that Jesus fed the multitudes with only five
loaves of bread and two fish.
Actually, looking at the text, it doesn't say that he multiplied the
fish. It says that he took the five loaves and two fish, broke the
loaves, and gave the loaves back to the disciples who gave them to the
crowds, who ate, with plenty to spare. My guess is that Jesus ate the
two fish himself.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |If I am ever forced to make a
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |choice between learning and using
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |win32, or leaving the computer
|industry, let me just say it was
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |nice knowing all of you. :-)
(650)857-7572 | Randal Schwartz
Mike Lyle
That's intereresting. The vetches are, of course, legumes, like clovers
and RJ's fava. Both species on the site are used in America, though
they seem to be European (not marked as introductions in Collins):
Crown vetch is good for soil retention on bare slopes, and it seems
Hairy vetch, called "Fodder vetch" here, is used as a green manure
crop. I'd expect a specialist supplier of grass seed to stock them,
though not for conventional lawns; and am not too surprised that this
supplier's website slips up in categorisation.
I don't know which vetch or vetches would be good in lawns: over here
they sometimes use small white clover for lawns which won't be walked
on, as it's fairly drought-resistant and doesn't need much cutting.
--
Mike.
Alan Jones
> Robert Bannister wrote:
>> Mardon wrote:
>>
>>> The following sounds a bit strange to me:
>>> I found 2 four-leaf clovers in the field of clover that is next to
>>> my house.
>>>
>>> How can the plural of clover be both "clovers" and "clover"?
>>>
>>> BTW, this question arose today as I was composing an email to send
>>> to my sister.
>> You are getting mixed up between mass nouns and count nouns. Clover,
>> like beer, does not normally have a plural, but just has you sample a
>> number of different beers, you can have different clovers. "Two
>> four-leaf clovers" is a plural; "a lot of clover" is not a plural.
> Would you say "a field of rose" then, or "a field of roses"? "A field
> of tulip" or "a field of tulips"? I have not seen much of the former
> form but very frequently the latter.
[...]
In your original example, "four-leaved clovers" means particular individual
specimens. "Fields of clover" refers to a a kind of plant grown as a crop,
without consideration of any individual specimen; the word "clover" here is
a mass noun and therefore singular, however many clover plants are in the
field. You could also have "clovers" as meaning distinct types of clover:
"Not all clovers are satisfactory as 'green manure' ".
There aren't, I think, many plant names that work in all three of these
ways. "Rose" and "tulip" are rare in the second sense, though I could
imagine something like "The floral decorations were as impressive as they
were extensive, with great swathes of rose and carnation along the
cloisters". Perhaps the size of the flowers is relevant: roses and tulips
are perhaps more often imagined as individual specimens than as
undifferentiated ground-cover like clover. Market garden will have
polytunnels full of lettuce, whereas the home gardener may protect his
few lettuces with cloches -but they would ask a friend "Are you growing
lettuce again, after the snail problem last year?"
Flowering lavishly in my garden this evening there are roses and pinks and
sweet peas (all, as you see, countables and plural) but also lavender and
clematis. Except in the "type" sense, one can't say "a lavender" or "a
clematis", and "clematis" has to serve as both singular and plural and as
the mass noun; but one can say "I've bought a new clematis" (that wouldn't
mean a single flower, though, but a whole plant, and there is no special
plural form). Books probably exist called The Cultivation of The Rose,
or of The Sweet Pea, and that would mean any and every type of rose and
sweet pea; but the equivalent would be "The Cultivation of Clematis".
I don't know why English has these inconsistencies.
Alan Jones
Default User
I wouldn't normally say that, instead using "fish" rather than
"fishes". My idiolect would usually reserve "fishes" for kinds of fish,
similar to "grasses", except for set phrases like "loaves and fishes".
Brian
--
If televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who
won't shut up.
-- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com)
Default User
> Mardon <mgb7...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The following sounds a bit strange to me:
> > I found 2 four-leaf clovers in the field of clover that is next to
> > my house.
> >
> > How can the plural of clover be both "clovers" and "clover"?
>
> Similar to many other nouns that can be both countable and
> uncountable. I'm not sure if you are asking about the entire
> concept, or just the highly specific application to plants.
>
> A field of grass
> Vetch and timothy are two different grasses.
>
> A glass of beer
> This bar sells six different beers.
The second example is more similar to the clover question, as one can
say, "I've had six beers, and that's starting to be a lot of beer." You
can't do that with grass.
Mike Lyle
Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
> "Mike Lyle" <mike_l...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
>
> > The case of "four-leafed clover" or "four-leaf clover" is different:
> > it would be awkward to say something like "a leaf of clover with
> > four leaflets", and since we are speaking of a single object, the
> > singular is natural.
>
> Actually, it would be no more awkward to speak of "a <something> of
> clover" than a blade of grass. We just happen not to do it. I looked
> in the OED to see when we started talking about "a clover" to mean an
> individual stalk (blade, sprig, stem), but they don't actually have
> any mention of such a sense. I'm not sure it's all that common to do
> so unless you specify the number of leaves.
I demur. "Blade" is a monosyllable, while "four-leafed x" is at least a
trisyll. That leaves out the unhappy relationship of "leaf" and
"leaflet", which is where the awkwardness would really come in. That's
why we both imagine countable "clover" is probably used for the leaf
only in connection with the number of leaflets: I can't offhand think
of another case in which the name of the plant is ordinarily used,
countably, for the leaf. There presumably must be others, but just now
I can only think of rather old-fashioned usages like "bays" and
"laurels". Of course, if we aren't specifying the number of leaflets,
we call it a "cloverleaf", "clover-leaf", or "clover leaf".
--
Mike.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Flowering lavishly in my garden this evening there are roses and
> pinks and sweet peas (all, as you see, countables and plural)
The last so only since the late seventeenth century. Prior to that
(and, in some places afterwards), it would have been "pease" and
uncountable.
Although perhaps that's too strong. The OED gives "peasen" (variously
spelled) as an earlier regional "plural (and collective)". There are
only two earlier quotations that seem to be unquestionably plural:
a1425 WYCLIF _Sel. Eng. Wks._ (1871) II. 71 Pesis [_v.r._ peesen]
ben divers from whete, as creatures diversen fro God.
1533 T. ELYOT _Castel of Helthe_ (1541) II. 25b, Peasyn are muche
in the nature of beanes.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Theories are not matters of fact,
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |they are derived from observing
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |fact. If you don't have data, you
|don't get good theories. You get
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(650)857-7572 | --John Lawler
Evan Kirshenbaum
> The second example is more similar to the clover question, as one
> can say, "I've had six beers, and that's starting to be a lot of
> beer." You can't do that with grass.
You could if you ate (and therefore ordered individual quantities of)
grass. "Salad" comes pretty close.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Sometimes I think the surest sign
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |that intelligent life exists
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |elsewhere in the universe is that
|none of it has tried to contact us.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com | Calvin
(650)857-7572
Default User
> "Default User" <defaul...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> > The second example is more similar to the clover question, as one
> > can say, "I've had six beers, and that's starting to be a lot of
> > beer." You can't do that with grass.
>
> You could if you ate (and therefore ordered individual quantities of)
> grass. "Salad" comes pretty close.
I don't see how I would say, "I ate a grass today." It would be, "I ate
some grass" or "I ate a blade of grass."
On the other hand, I would say, "I drank a beer" or "I found a clover."
Mike Lyle
Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
> "Alan Jones" <a...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes:
>
> > Flowering lavishly in my garden this evening there are roses and
> > pinks and sweet peas (all, as you see, countables and plural)
>
> The last so only since the late seventeenth century. Prior to that
> (and, in some places afterwards), it would have been "pease" and
> uncountable.
>
> Although perhaps that's too strong. The OED gives "peasen" (variously
> spelled) as an earlier regional "plural (and collective)". There are
> only two earlier quotations that seem to be unquestionably plural:
>
> a1425 WYCLIF _Sel. Eng. Wks._ (1871) II. 71 Pesis [_v.r._ peesen]
> ben divers from whete, as creatures diversen fro God.
>
> 1533 T. ELYOT _Castel of Helthe_ (1541) II. 25b, Peasyn are muche
> in the nature of beanes.
Not sweet peas, though. Unfortunately the relevant book's in a box, but
I'm pretty sure they were unknown in Br before the 18C. I see that OED1
has "sweet pea" from 1730, and "sweet-scented pea" from 1728.
--
Mike.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>
>> "Default User" <defaul...@yahoo.com> writes:
>>
>> > The second example is more similar to the clover question, as one
>> > can say, "I've had six beers, and that's starting to be a lot of
>> > beer." You can't do that with grass.
>>
>> You could if you ate (and therefore ordered individual quantities
>> of) grass. "Salad" comes pretty close.
>
> I don't see how I would say, "I ate a grass today." It would be, "I
> ate some grass" or "I ate a blade of grass."
That's because you're not thinking of it being sold in an
individually-consumable quantity. Imagine a waiter at a horse
restaurant saying to his horse customers "Okay, that's three grasses,
an alfalfa, and a hay with a side of sugar cubes."
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Bullwinkle: You sure that's the
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 | only way?
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |Rocky: Well, if you're going to be
| a hero, you've got to do
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com | stupid things every once in
(650)857-7572 | a while.
Default User
> "Default User" <defaul...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> > Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
> >
> >> "Default User" <defaul...@yahoo.com> writes:
> >>
> >> > The second example is more similar to the clover question, as one
> >> > can say, "I've had six beers, and that's starting to be a lot of
> >> > beer." You can't do that with grass.
> >>
> >> You could if you ate (and therefore ordered individual quantities
> >> of) grass. "Salad" comes pretty close.
> >
> > I don't see how I would say, "I ate a grass today." It would be, "I
> > ate some grass" or "I ate a blade of grass."
>
> That's because you're not thinking of it being sold in an
> individually-consumable quantity. Imagine a waiter at a horse
> restaurant saying to his horse customers "Okay, that's three grasses,
> an alfalfa, and a hay with a side of sugar cubes."
You mean as a shortened form of "grass salad", I assume. It still
doesn't refer to a single piece of grass the was "clover" can.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>
>> "Default User" <defaul...@yahoo.com> writes:
>>
>> > Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>> >
>> >> "Default User" <defaul...@yahoo.com> writes:
>> >>
>> >> > The second example is more similar to the clover question, as
>> >> > one can say, "I've had six beers, and that's starting to be a
>> >> > lot of beer." You can't do that with grass.
>> >>
>> >> You could if you ate (and therefore ordered individual
>> >> quantities of) grass. "Salad" comes pretty close.
>> >
>> > I don't see how I would say, "I ate a grass today." It would be,
>> > "I ate some grass" or "I ate a blade of grass."
>>
>> That's because you're not thinking of it being sold in an
>> individually-consumable quantity. Imagine a waiter at a horse
>> restaurant saying to his horse customers "Okay, that's three
>> grasses, an alfalfa, and a hay with a side of sugar cubes."
>
> You mean as a shortened form of "grass salad", I assume.
I wouldn't presume to guess what an order of grass would look like at
a horse restaurant.
> It still doesn't refer to a single piece of grass the was "clover"
> can.
No, it refers to a single serving of grass in the same way that "beer"
can. In other words, "I found three clovers" and "I drank three
beers" are really different constructions. I can (by imagining
serving animals that eat it) get "three grasses" in the second sense,
but not the first.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Pious Jews have a category of
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kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |that this is one of them.
(650)857-7572 | Joseph C. Fineman
John Dean
> "John Dean" <john...@fraglineone.net> writes:
>
>> Will wrote:
>>> John Dean wrote:
>>>> Like "I saw several large fishes swimming through a school of
>>>> smaller fish"? Mysterious, huh?
>>>
>>> I'd say "I saw several large fish swimming through a school of
>>> smaller fish."
>>
>> Ah - like the miracle of the five loaves and the two fish?
>
> Actually, that's how the New International Version and the English
> Standard Version give it
Indeed. Not the good old KJV, of course.
>
> NIV: "We have here only five loaves of bread and two fish," the
> answered...Taking the five loaves and the two fish ...
>
> ESV: They said to him, "We have only five loaves here and two
> fish"...taking the five loaves and the two fish ...
>
> I suspect that most people, when explaining the "miracle of the loaves
> and the fishes" will say that Jesus fed the multitudes with only five
> loaves of bread and two fish.
>
Depends. They might read the version in Matthew 15 instead of Matt. 14 and
come across the *other* fast food miracle:
34 And Jesus saith unto them, How many loaves have ye? And they said, Seven,
and a few little fishes.
--
John Dean
Oxford
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>> I suspect that most people, when explaining the "miracle of the
>> loaves and the fishes" will say that Jesus fed the multitudes with
>> only five loaves of bread and two fish.
>
> Depends. They might read the version in Matthew 15 instead of
> Matt. 14 and come across the *other* fast food miracle:
>
> 34 And Jesus saith unto them, How many loaves have ye? And they
> said, Seven, and a few little fishes.
Ah, yes. "A few small fish" there in both the NIV and the ESV. For
that one, it looks more likely that the crowd got the fish, as well,
although it seems strange to talk of "breaking" fish.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
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John Dean
> "John Dean" <john...@fraglineone.net> writes:
>
>> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>
>>> I suspect that most people, when explaining the "miracle of the
>>> loaves and the fishes" will say that Jesus fed the multitudes with
>>> only five loaves of bread and two fish.
>>
>> Depends. They might read the version in Matthew 15 instead of
>> Matt. 14 and come across the *other* fast food miracle:
>>
>> 34 And Jesus saith unto them, How many loaves have ye? And they
>> said, Seven, and a few little fishes.
>
> Ah, yes. "A few small fish" there in both the NIV and the ESV. For
> that one, it looks more likely that the crowd got the fish, as well,
> although it seems strange to talk of "breaking" fish.
How else do you get the little buggers to stand still while you're saddling
them?
--
John Dean
Oxford
Robert Bannister
> Donna Richoux wrote:
>
>
>>Mardon <mgb7...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>The following sounds a bit strange to me:
>>>I found 2 four-leaf clovers in the field of clover that is next to
>>>my house.
>>>
>>>How can the plural of clover be both "clovers" and "clover"?
>>
>>Similar to many other nouns that can be both countable and
>>uncountable. I'm not sure if you are asking about the entire
>>concept, or just the highly specific application to plants.
>>
>> A field of grass
>> Vetch and timothy are two different grasses.
>>
>> A glass of beer
>> This bar sells six different beers.
>
>
> The second example is more similar to the clover question, as one can
> say, "I've had six beers, and that's starting to be a lot of beer." You
> can't do that with grass.
I've got half a dozen different grasses in my excuse for a lawn, but
there still isn't a lot of grass there.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>
>
>>"Default User" <defaul...@yahoo.com> writes:
>>
>>
>>>Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>"Default User" <defaul...@yahoo.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>The second example is more similar to the clover question, as one
>>>>>can say, "I've had six beers, and that's starting to be a lot of
>>>>>beer." You can't do that with grass.
>>>>
>>>>You could if you ate (and therefore ordered individual quantities
>>>>of) grass. "Salad" comes pretty close.
>>>
>>>I don't see how I would say, "I ate a grass today." It would be, "I
>>>ate some grass" or "I ate a blade of grass."
>>
>>That's because you're not thinking of it being sold in an
>>individually-consumable quantity. Imagine a waiter at a horse
>>restaurant saying to his horse customers "Okay, that's three grasses,
>>an alfalfa, and a hay with a side of sugar cubes."
>
>
> You mean as a shortened form of "grass salad", I assume. It still
> doesn't refer to a single piece of grass the was "clover" can.
And isn't "I drank a beer" a shortened form of "I drank a glass of
beer"? Personally, I wouldn't use "a clover"; I'd say "bit of clover",
so maybe we're straying from the general into personal dialect.
--
Rob Bannister
Default User
That's fine, but not equivalent. "A grass" isn't a blade of grass, the
way "a clover" is.
Default User
> Default User wrote:
> > You mean as a shortened form of "grass salad", I assume. It still
> > doesn't refer to a single piece of grass the was "clover" can.
>
> And isn't "I drank a beer" a shortened form of "I drank a glass of
> beer"? Personally, I wouldn't use "a clover"; I'd say "bit of
> clover", so maybe we're straying from the general into personal
> dialect.
I personally don't think so. I think "beer" is both countable and
non-countable. Regardless, "a grass" is not currently established to
mean that.
Oleg Lego
>Robert Bannister wrote:
>
>> Default User wrote:
>>
>> > Donna Richoux wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >>Mardon <mgb7...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > > The following sounds a bit strange to me:
>> > > > I found 2 four-leaf clovers in the field of clover that is next
>> > > > to my house.
>> > > >
>> > > > How can the plural of clover be both "clovers" and "clover"?
>> > >
>> > > Similar to many other nouns that can be both countable and
>> > > uncountable. I'm not sure if you are asking about the entire
>> > > concept, or just the highly specific application to plants.
>> > >
>> >> A field of grass
>> >> Vetch and timothy are two different grasses.
>> > >
>> >> A glass of beer
>> >> This bar sells six different beers.
>> >
>> >
>> > The second example is more similar to the clover question, as one
>> > can say, "I've had six beers, and that's starting to be a lot of
>> > beer." You can't do that with grass.
>>
>> I've got half a dozen different grasses in my excuse for a lawn, but
>> there still isn't a lot of grass there.
>
>That's fine, but not equivalent. "A grass" isn't a blade of grass, the
>way "a clover" is.
But you don't ever say "a clover" to describe an example of clover.
If you are speaking of its type, as in "Trifolium hybridum is a
clover". In this case, you are not talking about a single example of a
plant, but rather, of a type, or species of the general term "clover"
What you do say is "a four-leaf clover". The entire phrase is an
atomic entity that happens to describe a particular thing--a piece
(example) of a clover plant having distinct (and rare) properties.
Solo Thesailor
Alan Jones wrote:
> ....
>
> Flowering lavishly in my garden this evening there are roses and pinks and
> sweet peas (all, as you see, countables and plural) but also lavender and
> clematis. Except in the "type" sense, one can't say "a lavender" or "a
> clematis", and "clematis" has to serve as both singular and plural and as
> the mass noun; but one can say "I've bought a new clematis" (that wouldn't
> mean a single flower, though, but a whole plant, and there is no special
> plural form). Books probably exist called The Cultivation of The Rose,
> or of The Sweet Pea, and that would mean any and every type of rose and
> sweet pea; but the equivalent would be "The Cultivation of Clematis".
> I don't know why English has these inconsistencies.
>
> Alan Jones
Thank you, also to other contributors here. Discussion on loaves of
bread and fishes also made me think of "food". Recently there seems to
be a new (to me) and widespread (?) use of "foods" which in the olden
days I thought was a no-no. Is it new and now acceptable or has that
been in common usage for some time? When would you use "food" and when
"foods"?
Cheers
Solo Thesailor
http://sailingstoriesandtips.blogspot.com
Default User
> The Default User entity posted thusly:
> > That's fine, but not equivalent. "A grass" isn't a blade of grass,
> > the way "a clover" is.
>
> But you don't ever say "a clover" to describe an example of clover.
Well, I do.
> What you do say is "a four-leaf clover". The entire phrase is an
> atomic entity that happens to describe a particular thing--a piece
> (example) of a clover plant having distinct (and rare) properties.
Maybe you. I'd use "a clover" to talk about an individual clover plant,
not just as a set phrase.
Alan Jones
"Foods" when you mean "types of food". Not new, I think - it follows a
standard patttern. Compare the generic "wine" with "the wines of France and
Spain", or "literature" and "the literatures of ancient Greece and Rome".
*I've seen "Englishes", meaning "varieties of English".
Alan Jones
Mike Lyle
Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
> "John Dean" <john...@fraglineone.net> writes:
>
> > Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>
> >> I suspect that most people, when explaining the "miracle of the
> >> loaves and the fishes" will say that Jesus fed the multitudes with
> >> only five loaves of bread and two fish.
> >
> > Depends. They might read the version in Matthew 15 instead of
> > Matt. 14 and come across the *other* fast food miracle:
> >
> > 34 And Jesus saith unto them, How many loaves have ye? And they
> > said, Seven, and a few little fishes.
>
> Ah, yes. "A few small fish" there in both the NIV and the ESV. For
> that one, it looks more likely that the crowd got the fish, as well,
> although it seems strange to talk of "breaking" fish.
John D's cogent observation from the fish-schooling department aside
for the present, they eat with their fingers in the mysterious orient.
The fishes, of course, may be red herrings, if we're to take the event
as a symbolic Messianic meal like the Last Supper: you don't need a lot
of bread for that. That would explain why we have no record of the
local bludgers turning up en masse the following day and demanding
another free lunch.
--
Mike.
Robert Bannister
Especially since it would appear the fish were neither cooked nor smoked.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
> Oleg Lego wrote:
>
>
>>The Default User entity posted thusly:
>
>
>>>That's fine, but not equivalent. "A grass" isn't a blade of grass,
>>>the way "a clover" is.
>>
>>But you don't ever say "a clover" to describe an example of clover.
>
>
> Well, I do.
>
>
>>What you do say is "a four-leaf clover". The entire phrase is an
>>atomic entity that happens to describe a particular thing--a piece
>>(example) of a clover plant having distinct (and rare) properties.
>
>
> Maybe you. I'd use "a clover" to talk about an individual clover plant,
> not just as a set phrase.
The way clover all mats together, it would be quite difficult to pick a
single clover plant without getting a few bits of root and stem from its
brothers and cousins.
--
Rob Bannister
Skitt
I'm looking over a four-leaf clover that I overlooked before. (Hi, Laura.)
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
http://www.geocities.com/opus731/
Default User
> The way clover all mats together, it would be quite difficult to pick
> a single clover plant without getting a few bits of root and stem
> from its brothers and cousins.
So?
John Dean
Hence one of jesting Pilate's questions - "What have you guys been smoking?"
--
John "And would not stay for an answer" Dean
Oxford
R H Draney
>
>Mike Lyle wrote:
>
>> The fishes, of course, may be red herrings, if we're to take the event
>> as a symbolic Messianic meal like the Last Supper: you don't need a lot
>> of bread for that. That would explain why we have no record of the
>> local bludgers turning up en masse the following day and demanding
>> another free lunch.
>>
>Especially since it would appear the fish were neither cooked nor smoked.
Not to worry; they were doubtless sashimi-grade....r
--
It's the crack on the wall and the stain on the cup that gets to you
in the very end...every cat has its fall when it runs out of luck,
so you can do with a touch of zen...cause when you're screwed,
you're screwed...and when it's blue, it's blue.
Oleg Lego
>Oleg Lego wrote:
>
>> The Default User entity posted thusly:
>
>> > That's fine, but not equivalent. "A grass" isn't a blade of grass,
>> > the way "a clover" is.
>>
>> But you don't ever say "a clover" to describe an example of clover.
>
>Well, I do.
>
>> What you do say is "a four-leaf clover". The entire phrase is an
>> atomic entity that happens to describe a particular thing--a piece
>> (example) of a clover plant having distinct (and rare) properties.
>
>Maybe you. I'd use "a clover" to talk about an individual clover plant,
>not just as a set phrase.
Just for reference, what part of the world do you call home? I have
never, until just this minute, heard anyone use "a clover" that way.
Default User
> The Default User entity posted thusly:
> > Maybe you. I'd use "a clover" to talk about an individual clover
> > plant, not just as a set phrase.
>
> Just for reference, what part of the world do you call home? I have
> never, until just this minute, heard anyone use "a clover" that way.
The USA.
Bob Cunningham
<defaul...@yahoo.com> said:
> Oleg Lego wrote:
> > The Default User entity posted thusly:
> > > Maybe you. I'd use "a clover" to talk about an individual clover
> > > plant, not just as a set phrase.
> > Just for reference, what part of the world do you call home? I have
> > never, until just this minute, heard anyone use "a clover" that way.
> The USA.
But what part? I haven't lived all my life in the USofA,
but I will have done so before much longer, and I've never
heard anyone say "a clover". I've heard "a clover leaf",
and "a cloverleaf", the former referring to the leaf of a
clover plant; the latter, to a freeway interchange *.
I've also never heard anyone refer to a single alfalfa plant
as "an alfalfa" or a single lettuce plant as "a lettuce".
(But "a lettuce" could refer to a variety of lettuce, like
Bibb, Iceberg, or Romaine.)
Are there different varieties of clover?
* But the _New Shorter Oxford_ has the second meaning
spelled "clover leaf".
--
Bob Cunningham, Southern California, USA
I've been young and I've been old; young is better.
-- Woody Wordpecker
(Paraphrasing Sophie Tucker)
Wood Avens
<exw...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>I've also never heard anyone refer to a single alfalfa plant
>as "an alfalfa" or a single lettuce plant as "a lettuce".
I don't know from alfalfa, but would you really not go to the salad
section of your supermarket and, dodging the spray mist, pick up "a
lettuce" off the stack of Romaine lettuces?
--
Katy Jennison
spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @
Bob Cunningham
<wood...@askjennison.com> said:
> On Sun, 09 Jul 2006 11:07:39 GMT, Bob Cunningham
> <exw...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >I've also never heard anyone refer to a single alfalfa plant
> >as "an alfalfa" or a single lettuce plant as "a lettuce".
> I don't know from alfalfa, but would you really not go to the salad
> section of your supermarket and, dodging the spray mist, pick up "a
> lettuce" off the stack of Romaine lettuces?
I wouldn't. I would pick up a head of lettuce.
Your "salad section" is also interesting. It probably
refers to what I would call the produce section. I think
there may be some items in the produce section that wouldn't
usually be used in salads. At the moment, though, every
fruit or vegetable I can think of seems like a possibility
for a salad ingredient, even apples, apricots, peaches,
oranges, kiwis, and grapefruit.
How about lemons? Would anyone make a salad with pieces of
lemon in it? Turnips?
The produce section in our markets usually has an area where
there are packaged salads. I suppose I could call that a
salad section, but I would be more likely to call it the
salad place.
Is "salad section" a commonly heard term in some parts of
the US?
the Omrud
> On Sun, 09 Jul 2006 12:57:02 +0100, Wood Avens
> <wood...@askjennison.com> said:
>
> > On Sun, 09 Jul 2006 11:07:39 GMT, Bob Cunningham
> > <exw...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > >I've also never heard anyone refer to a single alfalfa plant
> > >as "an alfalfa" or a single lettuce plant as "a lettuce".
>
> > I don't know from alfalfa, but would you really not go to the salad
> > section of your supermarket and, dodging the spray mist, pick up "a
> > lettuce" off the stack of Romaine lettuces?
>
> I wouldn't. I would pick up a head of lettuce.
>
> Your "salad section" is also interesting. It probably
> refers to what I would call the produce section. I think
> there may be some items in the produce section that wouldn't
> usually be used in salads. At the moment, though, every
> fruit or vegetable I can think of seems like a possibility
> for a salad ingredient, even apples, apricots, peaches,
> oranges, kiwis, and grapefruit.
UK supermarkets have a large section with fresh fruit, vegetables,
etc, but salad, fruit, root vegetables and so on are usually grouped
together. So there is a salad section in the fresh food section (we
wouldn't say "produce").
--
David
=====
away on my hols soon - I may get online though
Bob Cunningham
<usenet...@gmail.com> said:
[...]
> UK supermarkets have a large section with fresh fruit, vegetables,
> etc, but salad, fruit, root vegetables and so on are usually grouped
> together. So there is a salad section in the fresh food section (we
> wouldn't say "produce").
Could you say that a supermarket has a greengrocery section?
Which reminds me: I've wondered from time to time about a
greengrocer selling oranges and other things that aren't
green.
Tony Cooper
<exw...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>On 9 Jul 2006 06:00:34 GMT, "Default User"
><defaul...@yahoo.com> said:
>
>> Oleg Lego wrote:
>
>> > The Default User entity posted thusly:
>
>> > > Maybe you. I'd use "a clover" to talk about an individual clover
>> > > plant, not just as a set phrase.
>
>> > Just for reference, what part of the world do you call home? I have
>> > never, until just this minute, heard anyone use "a clover" that way.
>
>> The USA.
>
>But what part? I haven't lived all my life in the USofA,
>but I will have done so before much longer, and I've never
>heard anyone say "a clover". I've heard "a clover leaf",
>and "a cloverleaf", the former referring to the leaf of a
>clover plant; the latter, to a freeway interchange *.
Would you consider the following sentence to be incorrect?
"That's a clover, but it's not a four-leaf clover".
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL
the Omrud
> On Sun, 09 Jul 2006 13:12:43 GMT, the Omrud
> <usenet...@gmail.com> said:
>
>
> [...]
>
> > UK supermarkets have a large section with fresh fruit, vegetables,
> > etc, but salad, fruit, root vegetables and so on are usually grouped
> > together. So there is a salad section in the fresh food section (we
> > wouldn't say "produce").
>
> Could you say that a supermarket has a greengrocery section?
I don't think I could, no.
> Which reminds me: I've wondered from time to time about a
> greengrocer selling oranges and other things that aren't
> green.
They probably sell orange's and other thing's.
I'm not sure there are many greengrocers left in the UK.
Mike Lyle
the Omrud wrote:
> Bob Cunningham <exw...@earthlink.net> had it:
>
> > On Sun, 09 Jul 2006 13:12:43 GMT, the Omrud
> > <usenet...@gmail.com> said:
> >
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > > UK supermarkets have a large section with fresh fruit, vegetables,
> > > etc, but salad, fruit, root vegetables and so on are usually grouped
> > > together. So there is a salad section in the fresh food section (we
> > > wouldn't say "produce").
We civilians wouldn't, but that's exactly what those in the trade say.
If you want banana boxes for your books when moving house, it's the
Produce Manager you ask for.
> >
> > Could you say that a supermarket has a greengrocery section?
>
> I don't think I could, no.
I rather think I could, but perhaps as a conscious semi-affectation;
I'd be much more likely to say "the fruit and veg."
>
> > Which reminds me: I've wondered from time to time about a
> > greengrocer selling oranges and other things that aren't
> > green.
>
> They probably sell orange's and other thing's.
"Green" here means "fresh" rather than "green in colour". "A green
youth." Other grocers sell dried vegetation of various kinds. As for
orange's and other fruit's, even in our lifetime the distinction
between greengrocer's and fruiterer's was still more or less alive.
>
> I'm not sure there are many greengrocers left in the UK.
Not many, sad to say; but still a fair number, especially in markets.
What I want to know is where rich people buy their fruit when out of
range of Fortnum's etc. They can't possibly put up with the half-ripe
chilled rubbish you get from supermarkets (Waitrose even have the gall
to label their most expensive plastic-wrapped half-ripe stuff
"Perfectly Ripe".)
(OT, ObR3. It's incredible that I still after all these years I make
the entry to _Zadok_ bang on the beat without even _listening_ to the
intro. We sang it every year at school.)
--
Mike.
mUs1Ka
Perhaps they were when he bought them.
--
Ray.
UK.
the Omrud
>
> the Omrud wrote:
> > Bob Cunningham <exw...@earthlink.net> had it:
> >
> > > On Sun, 09 Jul 2006 13:12:43 GMT, the Omrud
> > > <usenet...@gmail.com> said:
> > >
> > >
> > > [...]
> > >
> > > > UK supermarkets have a large section with fresh fruit, vegetables,
> > > > etc, but salad, fruit, root vegetables and so on are usually grouped
> > > > together. So there is a salad section in the fresh food section (we
> > > > wouldn't say "produce").
>
> We civilians wouldn't, but that's exactly what those in the trade say.
> If you want banana boxes for your books when moving house, it's the
> Produce Manager you ask for.
OK. Noting that Produce is "prod-youss", not the US "pro-dooss".
> (OT, ObR3. It's incredible that I still after all these years I make
> the entry to _Zadok_ bang on the beat without even _listening_ to the
> intro. We sang it every year at school.)
<smile> Still my natural home, AUE + R3.
LFS
[greengrocers]
>
>
> Not many, sad to say; but still a fair number, especially in markets.
> What I want to know is where rich people buy their fruit when out of
> range of Fortnum's etc. They can't possibly put up with the half-ripe
> chilled rubbish you get from supermarkets (Waitrose even have the gall
> to label their most expensive plastic-wrapped half-ripe stuff
> "Perfectly Ripe".)
Perhaps they have it specially flown in from where it grows, thus
avoiding the refrigeration.
>
> (OT, ObR3. It's incredible that I still after all these years I make
> the entry to _Zadok_ bang on the beat without even _listening_ to the
> intro. We sang it every year at school.)
>
Are you singing to yourself? I have been but I was listening to Springsteen.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Mike Lyle
Bob Cunningham wrote:
[...]
> But what part? I haven't lived all my life in the USofA,
> but I will have done so before much longer, and I've never
> heard anyone say "a clover". I've heard "a clover leaf",
> and "a cloverleaf", the former referring to the leaf of a
> clover plant; the latter, to a freeway interchange *.
>
> I've also never heard anyone refer to a single alfalfa plant
> as "an alfalfa" or a single lettuce plant as "a lettuce".
It's a matter of the plant's habit of growth and the way it is used. A
primrose plant is "a primrose", because they grow as individuals.
Clumpy species like grasses and clovers generally get treated as
masses, both because of their habit and because as forage or fodder
they aren't fed as individual specimens.
Kale grows individually, but as fodder it's treated as uncountable:
"Give the cows kale", not "kales". "Mind your own business" isn't a
fodder or forage crop, but it grows in clumps, so we'd have "some
myob", not generally "a myob".
In the garden, we'd certainly say "a lettuce" or "a cabbage" for each
plant. Though we could also speak of "a row of cabbage", my usual
version is "a row of cabbages". A greengrocer will have "a box of
lettuce" from which he'd sell you "a lettuce". (BrE usual pron
['lettis], AusE ['lett@s].)
>
> (But "a lettuce" could refer to a variety of lettuce, like
> Bibb, Iceberg, or Romaine.)
Yes, that too.
>
> Are there different varieties of clover?
Are there ever? You ain't no farm boy, Bob. Not only distinct species,
but also cultivars without number, each for its specific purpose under
heaven.
There are also a few garden varieties, such as a bronze-leafed
selection I've seen around. At the nursery, you'd buy "a dozen bronze
clovers", though also "a dozen bronze clover". In horticulture and
arboriculture, it's not only names ending in sibilants which often lose
the plural ending.
--
Mike
HVS
> Bob Cunningham <exw...@earthlink.net> had it:
-snip-
>> Which reminds me: I've wondered from time to time about a
>> greengrocer selling oranges and other things that aren't
>> green.
>
> They probably sell orange's and other thing's.
Those used to be sold by a fruiterer rather than a greengrocer,
didn't they? I'm sure I've seen shop/market signs for fruiterers
as a separate trade.
--
Cheers, Harvey
Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed
For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van
Mike Lyle
LFS wrote:
> Mike Lyle wrote:
>
> [greengrocers]
> > What I want to know is where rich people buy their fruit when out of
> > range of Fortnum's etc. They can't possibly put up with the half-ripe
> > chilled rubbish you get from supermarkets (Waitrose even have the gall
> > to label their most expensive plastic-wrapped half-ripe stuff
> > "Perfectly Ripe".)
>
> Perhaps they have it specially flown in from where it grows, thus
> avoiding the refrigeration.
You disappoint me, Laura. I expected a shopping queen like you to know
beyond a mere perhaps exactly where the more ample felines got their
stuff. Mind you, I seem to remember Palm's in the Market were pretty
good: is that nostalgical rose-tintery from less critical days when I
liked Vesta curries and thought lardy-cake was a noble breakfast?
>
> >
> > (OT, ObR3. It's incredible that I still after all these years I make
> > the entry to _Zadok_ bang on the beat without even _listening_ to the
> > intro. We sang it every year at school.)
> >
>
> Are you singing to yourself? I have been but I was listening to Springsteen.
You could hear me all over Glos. The police came twice.
--
Mike.
LFS
> LFS wrote:
>
>>Mike Lyle wrote:
>>
>>[greengrocers]
>
>
>>>What I want to know is where rich people buy their fruit when out of
>>>range of Fortnum's etc. They can't possibly put up with the half-ripe
>>>chilled rubbish you get from supermarkets (Waitrose even have the gall
>>>to label their most expensive plastic-wrapped half-ripe stuff
>>>"Perfectly Ripe".)
>>
>>Perhaps they have it specially flown in from where it grows, thus
>>avoiding the refrigeration.
>
>
> You disappoint me, Laura. I expected a shopping queen like you to know
> beyond a mere perhaps exactly where the more ample felines got their
> stuff. Mind you, I seem to remember Palm's in the Market were pretty
> good: is that nostalgical rose-tintery from less critical days when I
> liked Vesta curries and thought lardy-cake was a noble breakfast?
What's a shopping queen and why would you think I am one?
Palm's is still there but is now much like any other high-priced deli.
I've only ever looked, never bought anything there.
I don't know where the rich shop in these parts (if I knew any, I'd ask
them) but the checkout lady at M&S in Summertown yesterday told us that
Kevin Maxwell had just been in.
>
>>>(OT, ObR3. It's incredible that I still after all these years I make
>>>the entry to _Zadok_ bang on the beat without even _listening_ to the
>>>intro. We sang it every year at school.)
>>>
>>
>>Are you singing to yourself? I have been but I was listening to Springsteen.
>
>
> You could hear me all over Glos. The police came twice.
Did they sing along?
Donna Richoux
> Which reminds me: I've wondered from time to time about a
> greengrocer selling oranges and other things that aren't
> green.
It's similar in Dutch -- the word for vegetable is "groente"
(green-thing) no matter what color it is. I suppose once upon a time
everything that was vegetable-like was green (leafy, even), and more
colorful items were added to the category bit by bit, like all the New
World imports.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Graeme Thomas
siness.co.uk> writes
>I don't know where the rich shop in these parts (if I knew any, I'd ask
>them)
A couple of years ago a wealthy lady of my acquaintance (her hubby's
wealth that year was estimated, in _The Times_ list, to be around £100
million) complained to me about Tesco's vans. She'd ordered some of
their goods off the Internet, and was generally pleased with the
process, but found the Tesco's vans too shaming. I gather that the
local Tesco ordered a plain white van for her and other discerning
customers.
--
Graeme Thomas
Mike Lyle
LFS wrote:
> Mike Lyle wrote:
>
> > LFS wrote:
> >
> >>Mike Lyle wrote:
> >>>(OT, ObR3. It's incredible that I still after all these years I make
> >>>the entry to _Zadok_ bang on the beat without even _listening_ to the
> >>>intro. We sang it every year at school.)
> >>>
> >>
> >>Are you singing to yourself? I have been but I was listening to Springsteen.
> >
> >
> > You could hear me all over Glos. The police came twice.
>
> Did they sing along?
Nah, nothing so exciting: they just smashed in my front door, trashed
the furniture, ripped out my hard drive, threw me down the stairs, and
shot me in the shoulder, telling the accompanying reporters that they
had had a serious tip-off, and left saying "Just a routine enquiry,
sir." They didn't rape the cat, because I haven't got one.
--
Mike.
Robert Bannister
I thought that was just a red herring. Still, it explains why he needed
to wash his hands.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
Many years ago, they called themselves "greengrocers and fruitiers",
much has butchers had "butcher, pork butcher and poulterer" in their
signs. I don't remember a separate greengrocer's and fruitier's, but I
assume they must have existed at one time. "Greengrocery aisle" wouldn't
surprise me, but I mainly hear "Vegetable aisle" or "Fruit aisle", even
though they are both more or less in the same place and it is not an aisle.
And, speaking only for myself, I have always said "a lettuce" or "two
lettuces", but never "a clover" or "an alfafa".
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
> Other grocers sell dried vegetation of various kinds.
This must be why greengrocers are always spraying water over their stuff
so that if you forget to take it out of the plastic bag when you get
home, it will go mouldy overnight. - Sorry: a pet peeve.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
>
> Would you consider the following sentence to be incorrect?
>
> "That's a clover, but it's not a four-leaf clover".
I think that would pass unnoticed in conversation, but I would be more
likely to say: "That's clover, but it's not (a) four-leaf clover".
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
>>(But "a lettuce" could refer to a variety of lettuce, like
>>Bibb, Iceberg, or Romaine.)
Is Romaine the same as Cos? I have noticed how in Western Australia,
"Cos" was unknown until fairly recently and we only used to have
"Italian lettuce".
--
Rob Bannister
Oleg Lego
Greengrocer's, shirley.
Oleg Lego
>Mike Lyle <mike_l...@yahoo.co.uk> had it:
>
>> We civilians wouldn't, but that's exactly what those in the trade say.
>> If you want banana boxes for your books when moving house, it's the
>> Produce Manager you ask for.
>
>OK. Noting that Produce is "prod-youss", not the US "pro-dooss".
Or for my dialect, "prod-ews", or as someone else spelled it
phonetically the 'u' is an 'iw'.
Oleg Lego
>On 9 Jul 2006 06:00:34 GMT, "Default User"
><defaul...@yahoo.com> said:
>
>> Oleg Lego wrote:
>
>> > The Default User entity posted thusly:
>
>> > > Maybe you. I'd use "a clover" to talk about an individual clover
>> > > plant, not just as a set phrase.
>
>> > Just for reference, what part of the world do you call home? I have
>> > never, until just this minute, heard anyone use "a clover" that way.
>
>> The USA.
>
>But what part? I haven't lived all my life in the USofA,
>but I will have done so before much longer, and I've never
>heard anyone say "a clover". I've heard "a clover leaf",
>and "a cloverleaf", the former referring to the leaf of a
>clover plant; the latter, to a freeway interchange *.
>
>I've also never heard anyone refer to a single alfalfa plant
>as "an alfalfa" or a single lettuce plant as "a lettuce".
>
>(But "a lettuce" could refer to a variety of lettuce, like
>Bibb, Iceberg, or Romaine.)
>
>Are there different varieties of clover?
Yes, quite a few. Being originally from Vancouver, I was at one time
aware of only one variety, a low ground-cover type, with globular
flowers, mainly white, pink, or purple.
Since moving to Saskatchewan, I have seen several other species, one
of which can grow to about 5-6 ft, tall, with bright yellow flowers,
and much sought after by horses. I believe clovers are closely related
to alfalfa, both being legumes.
K. Edgcombe
Mike Lyle <mike_l...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> >
>> > (OT, ObR3. It's incredible that I still after all these years I make
>> > the entry to _Zadok_ bang on the beat without even _listening_ to the
>> > intro. We sang it every year at school.)
You wait till you have to walk in procession up a long aisle, in time to the
music, and time your distance so that you arrive one bar before the entry,
wheel round sharply on the last two beats of the introduction, and raise the
roof on the first beat.
It's very tricky when you haven't quite got there in time.
Done it several times with a piano accordion (also processing; the player has
to memorise the intro, till he arrives at his music stand). It works
surprisingly well.
Katy
Matthew Huntbach
> the Omrud wrote:
>> Bob Cunningham <exw...@earthlink.net> had it:
>>> On Sun, 09 Jul 2006 13:12:43 GMT, the Omrud
>>> <usenet...@gmail.com> said:
>>>> UK supermarkets have a large section with fresh fruit, vegetables,
>>>> etc, but salad, fruit, root vegetables and so on are usually grouped
>>>> together. So there is a salad section in the fresh food section (we
>>>> wouldn't say "produce").
> We civilians wouldn't, but that's exactly what those in the trade say.
> If you want banana boxes for your books when moving house, it's the
> Produce Manager you ask for.
To which the reply these days (I needed soem of those boxes a while
back and tried to get them) seems inevitably to be "Nah mate, we always
smash them up as soon as we empty them".
Agreed, "produce" is the term used in the trade for what the public
might call "greengrocery", in fact it doesn't seem outlandish or
too AmE to me for it to be used in general conversation.
> "Green" here means "fresh" rather than "green in colour". "A green
> youth." Other grocers sell dried vegetation of various kinds. As for
> orange's and other fruit's, even in our lifetime the distinction
> between greengrocer's and fruiterer's was still more or less alive.
>>
>> I'm not sure there are many greengrocers left in the UK.
>
> Not many, sad to say; but still a fair number, especially in markets.
Agreed, there may be separate market stalls where markets still
exist which sell fruit and which sell veg, but I think "greengrocers"
is universally accepted as a term for a shop which sells both fruit and
veg.
As suggested, they are disappearing as most of us buy these things
in supermarkets these days and not from individual shops. Somehow we
all seem to like the existence of these shops and mourn them when
they go, but we don't actually do the shopping there that would make
them a profitable business. I remember when I was a councillor and
people would object to planning permission for yet another small shop
being turned into a takeaway with "why can't it be a greengrocers/
butchers/fishmongers like it used to be?". The reason is, as one longed
to shout out at these people, is that it went out of business when that's
what it was because it couldn't make a profit - the alternative
is the shop remains empty and derelict, or it opens up as the one thing
that still seems to be able to make a business out of a small shop on a
suburban street. Somehow the general public in this country still don't
seem to realise we don't live in a socialist command economy, and the
local council can't just command a greengrocer etc to open and one will.
Similarly, most people seem to be under the impression there's some
committee which meets somewhere to set house prices, and really don't
get the argument that the price of a house is whatever someone is willing
to pay for it.
> What I want to know is where rich people buy their fruit when out of
> range of Fortnum's etc. They can't possibly put up with the half-ripe
> chilled rubbish you get from supermarkets (Waitrose even have the gall
> to label their most expensive plastic-wrapped half-ripe stuff
> "Perfectly Ripe".)
If that's how Waitrose sell it, you can be sure that's how even rich
people think it should be these days.
Matthew Huntbach
Tony Cooper
<m...@dcs.qmul.ac.uk> wrote:
>Agreed, there may be separate market stalls where markets still
>exist which sell fruit and which sell veg, but I think "greengrocers"
>is universally accepted as a term for a shop which sells both fruit and
>veg.
>
The shortening of "vegetable" to "veg" seems to be yet another pondial
difference. In the US, it would be "fruit and veggies".
Bob Cunningham
<mike_l...@yahoo.co.uk> said:
> Bob Cunningham wrote:
[...]
> > Are there different varieties of clover?
> Are there ever? You ain't no farm boy, Bob.
That's true, although as a boy in Utah I did stay with
relatives on a farm from time to time.
The farmers there grew alfalfa for hay. So far as I knew,
no one grew clover for any purpose.
Incidentally, over the years I've wondered from time to time
about the relationship between lucerne and alfalfa, but I've
never been curious enough to look it up. Now I have. Turns
out, according to both a British and an American dictionary,
lucerne is just another name for alfalfa. The American
dictionary says "lucerne" is chiefly British.
> Not only distinct species,
> but also cultivars without number, each for its specific purpose under
> heaven.
What are some of the specific purposes?
Matthew Huntbach
Whereas here a "veggie" is a vegetarian. This is strong enough for the
phrase "fruit and veggies" to conjure up an image of people rather
than greengrocery ...
Matthew Huntbach
R J Valentine
...
} The farmers there grew alfalfa for hay. So far as I knew,
} no one grew clover for any purpose.
Honey? Seems like most of the honey in the supermarket is clover honey,
though every once in a while I'll find a supermarket with a shelf of other
honeys.
My "lawn" is mostly clover, and it doesn't look half bad. I go out once a
week and lop off the blossoms with my cordless mower, and the honeybees
scatter an inch or two ahead of the mower. The thing about clover is that
it tends to encroach on the driveway and on the manhole cover that covers
the water meter, so I had to go out and get a cordless edger-trimmer
(there was one that came with the mower, but it's too much bother to
attach it and then horse the mower around to do the same job). (I've got
about ten feet of grass on three sides of the house and two or three times
that in front, as do all the neighbors [most of whom have gasoline ride-on
mowers, except the ones who have a service come in to do the job].)
The other day I noticed a row of beehives on a farm in Lancaster County,
and somewhere I've got a movie called _Ulee's Gold_ about a beekeeper
(played by Peter Fonda) down near where Coop lives.
Of course none of that demonstrates that people actually grow clover on
purpose, but it's at least possible.
--
rjv
Lancaster County is one of two Pennsylvania counties north of Cecil County
here at the head of the Chesapeake Bay (LEIA) on the Mason-Dixon Line.
Salvatore Volatile
> On Sun, 9 Jul 2006, Mike Lyle wrote:
>> the Omrud wrote:
>>> Bob Cunningham <exw...@earthlink.net> had it:
>>>> On Sun, 09 Jul 2006 13:12:43 GMT, the Omrud
>>>> <usenet...@gmail.com> said:
>
>>>>> UK supermarkets have a large section with fresh fruit, vegetables,
>>>>> etc, but salad, fruit, root vegetables and so on are usually grouped
>>>>> together. So there is a salad section in the fresh food section (we
>>>>> wouldn't say "produce").
>
>> We civilians wouldn't, but that's exactly what those in the trade say.
>> If you want banana boxes for your books when moving house, it's the
>> Produce Manager you ask for.
>
> To which the reply these days (I needed soem of those boxes a while
> back and tried to get them) seems inevitably to be "Nah mate, we always
> smash them up as soon as we empty them".
>
> Agreed, "produce" is the term used in the trade for what the public
> might call "greengrocery", in fact it doesn't seem outlandish or
> too AmE to me for it to be used in general conversation.
Wait, I'm still confused. In UK supermarkets, is it the case that the
section containing fresh fruits and vegetables (= BrE "raw and non-jellied
fruit and veg") -- what in AmE is universally known as "the Produce
Section" -- is called "SALAD" or "The Salad Section"?
I wonder whether in AmE "produce" started out as a tradism which passed
into general usage (owing, perhaps, to usage in supermarket signs and
such). Research is necessary.
Also, was "greengrocery" or "greengrocer"
ever current in AmE (those terms are now, outside of the Cooper household,
extinct or obsolete in AmE)? I'd call a store that specializes in selling
fresh fruits and vegetables a "fruit and vegetable store".
> Similarly, most people seem to be under the impression there's some
> committee which meets somewhere to set house prices, and really don't
> get the argument that the price of a house is whatever someone is willing
> to pay for it.
Heck, we get that in the US too. Even a petit-bourgeois like Coop starts
demanding that the Government take action when gasoline (= BrE "petrol")
prices get too high.
--
Salvatore Volatile
Salvatore Volatile
> On Mon, 10 Jul 2006 12:29:49 +0100, Matthew Huntbach
><m...@dcs.qmul.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>>Agreed, there may be separate market stalls where markets still
>>exist which sell fruit and which sell veg, but I think "greengrocers"
>>is universally accepted as a term for a shop which sells both fruit and
>>veg.
>>
> The shortening of "vegetable" to "veg" seems to be yet another pondial
> difference.
Agreed.
> In the US, it would be "fruit and veggies".
I wouldn't expect that myself. Vegetable or vegetarian get shortened to
"veggie" in some contexts, but not that one, IME.
"Veg" does occur in AmE as a verb (to veg, or to veg out).
--
Salvatore Volatile
Peter Moylan
"Adam, Adam, what have you done? Now the fish will smell like that."
Sorry, wrong story.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain
eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer
reliably receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses.
The optusnet address still has about 2 months of life left.
Peter Moylan
> The second example is more similar to the clover question, as one can
> say, "I've had six beers, and that's starting to be a lot of beer." You
> can't do that with grass.
"I've had six joints, and that's starting to be a lot of grass."
Peter Moylan
> I'm not sure there are many greengrocers left in the UK.
They seem to be making a comeback in the land of Aus. People - at least
some of us - are getting sick of the poor quality of supermarket fruit
and vegetables. Supermarket carrots are so large and woody that you
could feed a multitude with five barley loaves and two carrots. Lettuces
have been too long in storage. Brussels sprouts are so big that you have
to remove about half the mass before you penetrate to the edible
interior part. A lot of the fruit stays unripe for the first two or
three days after you've bought it, then suddenly goes through the "ripe"
stage to "rotten" in the space of about half an hour. I could go on.
Anyway, the point is that you get better quality at the greengrocer's',
and people are starting to notice the difference.
For similar reasons, I now get my meat from a butcher's shop rather than
from a supermarket. I don't often bother with a bakery, unless I'm
buying a dessert, because mass-produced multigrain bread is still
edible, but the so-called "hot bread shops" are doing a roaring trade in
some areas.
I rather miss the fact that the milkman's milk isn't from his own cows,
but that's the price of having moved to a city. Mind you, I might be
willing to move if anyone knows of a place where milk is still sold in
glass bottles. I'm still not used to the taste of cardboard milk, and
the plastic milk is even worse.
Solo Thesailor
Matthew Huntbach wrote:
> On Sun, 9 Jul 2006, Mike Lyle wrote:
> > the Omrud wrote:
> >> Bob Cunningham <exw...@earthlink.net> had it:
>
> > "Green" here means "fresh" rather than "green in colour". "A green
> >
Yes, also "green ginger" (but not "green finger") -I used to think that
that was weird.
> .....
> people would object to planning permission for yet another small shop
> being turned into a takeaway with "why can't it be a greengrocers/
> butchers/fishmongers like it used to be?".
>...
Glad to report all of these are alive and well in Australia. They
specialise in fresher and more-variety foods and personal service.
Greengroceries were looking like they would fade out but the new, just
starting, trend is to have a juice bar at the front. Similarly, plant
nurseries (ie retail shops) start to have a coffee-shop or
cofee-and-gift-shop annex to draw people back from megastores. You
might want to suggest that to them or just come over here to shop?
Solo Thesailor
http://sailingstoriesandtips.blogspot.com
Matthew Huntbach
> Matthew Huntbach wrote:
>>
>>>>>> UK supermarkets have a large section with fresh fruit, vegetables,
>>>>>> etc, but salad, fruit, root vegetables and so on are usually grouped
>>>>>> together. So there is a salad section in the fresh food section (we
>>>>>> wouldn't say "produce").
>> Agreed, "produce" is the term used in the trade for what the public
>> might call "greengrocery", in fact it doesn't seem outlandish or
>> too AmE to me for it to be used in general conversation.
> Wait, I'm still confused. In UK supermarkets, is it the case that the
> section containing fresh fruits and vegetables (= BrE "raw and non-jellied
> fruit and veg") -- what in AmE is universally known as "the Produce
> Section" -- is called "SALAD" or "The Salad Section"?
I think the implication was that the "salad section" would be a
subsection of the section that sells fresh fruit and vegetables
(perfectly correct BrE as well, apart from "fruit" not "fruits").
If pushed for a name for this section, I think I'd go for "produce
section" as well. So maybe less of a pandial difference here than
supposed.
Matthew Huntbach
Peter Moylan
we now call "Devon" was called "German sausage" in my youth. Of course,
that was in the days when only migrants bought stuff from a
delicatessen. The stuff they sold there was so different from
traditional food that we thought we'd be poisoned by it.
Leslie Danks
[...]
> Spitting Image scene:
>
> Mrs Thatcher (Giving order to waiter): I'll have the rack of lamb.
>
> Waiter: And what about the vegetables?
>
> (Rapid loosen to show entire cabinet at the same dining table)
>
> Mrs Thatcher (eyeing her hapless colleagues) Oh, they'll have the same
> as me.
The last time I was in Foyles in London I saw a blue plaque (near the lift)
with the following (alleged) quote from said iron lady:
I looked at the members of my cabinet and thought "If this lot knew anything
about industry, they'd be doing it."
--
Les
HVS
It was always very clear that she didn't admire industrialists:
she admired people who told industrialists what they should do.
Her admiration of people from industry was that of a naive person
who came out of university; married a rich guy; and went into
politics to hector people about how to run things that she'd
never done.
--
Cheers, Harvey
Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed
For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van
Salvatore Volatile
Aha. I think you're right, ex-Councillor. Coop might argue otherwise,
but I don't think most Americans refer to fresh fruits and vegetables as
"produce" most of the time either. It's really mainly when referring to
produce sections of supermarkets or like establishments. No one says,
"Let's go to the supermarket to buy some produce", or "I'm hungry. Do
we have any produce?". But I can easily imagine someone saying "I met my
husband in the produce section".
So I think the real Pondian differences here are other ones:
1) The disappearance (if it ever was established) of the term
"greengrocer" from AmE, and its retention in BrE;
2) The general disappearance of establishments specializing primarily or
exclusively in the sale of fresh fruits and vegetables (such places
certainly are plentiful enough in New York [LCIA], but we know that New
York has one foot in the Old World), though this seems to be belatedly
occurring in the UK as well.
Speaking of Pondian differences, did anyone notice that on _The Simpsons_
last night Milhous <sp> used the term "Christian name" to mean first name?
--
Salvatore Volatile
Mike Lyle
Bob Cunningham wrote:
> On 9 Jul 2006 08:49:55 -0700, "Mike Lyle"
> <mike_l...@yahoo.co.uk> said:
>
> > Bob Cunningham wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > > Are there different varieties of clover?
>
> > Are there ever? You ain't no farm boy, Bob.
>
> That's true, although as a boy in Utah I did stay with
> relatives on a farm from time to time.
>
> The farmers there grew alfalfa for hay. So far as I knew,
> no one grew clover for any purpose.
I wonder if they actually did without your knowledge, or if the local
climate suited alfalfa better. I rather think it may be more
drought-resistant, as it roots deeply (which also means it's good at
bringing nutrients up from the subsoil). Certainly at least some
varieties can be toxic to cattle if fed exclusively, so there would
have been other stuff available to balance the diet.
>
> Incidentally, over the years I've wondered from time to time
> about the relationship between lucerne and alfalfa, but I've
> never been curious enough to look it up. Now I have. Turns
> out, according to both a British and an American dictionary,
> lucerne is just another name for alfalfa. The American
> dictionary says "lucerne" is chiefly British.
"Lucerne" is the ordinary Aus term, too, and it's the headword in
Collins _Field Guide to the Wild Flowers of Br. and N. Europe_. Though
some of the varieties sold by seedsmen, especially if American in
origin, may well called "alfalfa". As the word's form suggests, it's
from Arabic (via Spanish). Oddly, it's now apparently called "mielga"
in Spanish -- maybe from the botanical "medicago". Yet more oddly, my
Spanish dictionary is American, but calls it only "lucerne" in both E-S
and S-E sections: no mention of "alfalfa".
>
> > Not only distinct species,
> > but also cultivars without number, each for its specific purpose under
> > heaven.
>
> What are some of the specific purposes?
Green manure, or blending with grasses for grazing, hay, or silage
(some kinds don't make ideal hay); or you'll need particular varieties
for particular soils and climates. I'd guess that RJ's lawn probably
has something like a small-leafed white clover, which grows low and
spreads well: it also looks better than grass during dry spells, but
isn't much good for football. To conclude firmly on familiar AUE
ground, under grazing, such creeping clovers don't get eaten to death
by sheep.
[...]
--
Mike.
Mike Lyle
Matthew Huntbach wrote:
> On Sun, 9 Jul 2006, Mike Lyle wrote:
> > We civilians wouldn't, but that's exactly what those in the trade say.
> > If you want banana boxes for your books when moving house, it's the
> > Produce Manager you ask for.
>
> To which the reply these days (I needed soem of those boxes a while
> back and tried to get them) seems inevitably to be "Nah mate, we always
> smash them up as soon as we empty them".
You surprise me. If you ask, they'll keep them for you. Two years ago,
I needed about fifty, and it didn't take long to amass them by daily
visits to Safeway and Tesco in Carmarthen. Or maybe that's just another
black mark for Londoners.
[...]
>
> > What I want to know is where rich people buy their fruit when out of
> > range of Fortnum's etc. They can't possibly put up with the half-ripe
> > chilled rubbish you get from supermarkets (Waitrose even have the gall
> > to label their most expensive plastic-wrapped half-ripe stuff
> > "Perfectly Ripe".)
>
> If that's how Waitrose sell it, you can be sure that's how even rich
> people think it should be these days.
Oh, dear. You've fallen for it, too. There is a level or two above
Waitrose, you know. The prodigously wealthy may get stuff from Aldi and
Lidl if they feel like it, let alone Waitrose; but they also know
special places for particular things they care about, and if they
don't, their staff do.
--
Mike.
the Omrud
>
> Matthew Huntbach wrote:
> > On Sun, 9 Jul 2006, Mike Lyle wrote:
> [...]
> > > We civilians wouldn't, but that's exactly what those in the trade say.
> > > If you want banana boxes for your books when moving house, it's the
> > > Produce Manager you ask for.
> >
> > To which the reply these days (I needed soem of those boxes a while
> > back and tried to get them) seems inevitably to be "Nah mate, we always
> > smash them up as soon as we empty them".
>
> You surprise me. If you ask, they'll keep them for you. Two years ago,
> I needed about fifty, and it didn't take long to amass them by daily
> visits to Safeway and Tesco in Carmarthen. Or maybe that's just another
> black mark for Londoners.
You could collect four times that many in Warrington Morrisons every
morning - they are piled up behind the tills for all to take. They
must be popular as there are never any left by the evening.
--
David
=====
away on my hols soon - I may get online though
Peter Duncanson
wrote:
>X-No-Archive: yes
>
>In message <e8tnka$jrv$1...@news.wss.yale.edu>, Salvatore Volatile
><m...@privacy.net> writes
>
>> But I can easily imagine someone saying "I met my
>>husband in the produce section".
>
>The English supermarket chain Asda actually encourage this sort of lewd
>behaviour. During their so-called 'singles evenings' spinsters and
>bachelors are encouraged to mingle and generally get to know each other.
It's worse than that, as I suspect you know, JF.
http://www.thehitchingpost.co.uk/news/news-print_out.php?nID=77
Checkout Britain's First Superstore Wedding! ( 01 Mar 2004 )
Asda Wedding "I'm just popping down to Asda to get a husband -
won't be long"...With these words, perhaps, Jill Piggott trotted
down to her local supermarket yesterday and got married. Her
wedding to Pete Freeman in the clothing department of the Asda
in York was Britain's first superstore wedding.
To say, however, that she went down the aisle would not be true.
Instead, accompanied by her 11 lilac-clad bridesmaids and
wearing a strapless white gown, she made her entrance up the
store's escalator and through the menswear and underwear
sections to the ceremony in the shoe department.
There, amid the discount signs and temptingly reasonable
footwear, she was married by City of York head registrar Robert
Livsey. To a skirl of Scottish pipes playing that traditional
air - the Asda theme tune - she then departed through the
automatic doors to her reception and a new life as Mrs Freeman.
The bride works on the Asda checkout, and her husband is a
regular customer. Very regular, it turned out, for the romantic
grocery buyer kept making a beeline for her queue. The blushing
groom said: "Our eyes just sort of met at the checkout." Such is
fate, and so they became the first couple to take advantage of
Asda's new wedding licence.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Oleg Lego
"Clovers vs. Clover"
>I wonder whether in AmE "produce" started out as a tradism which passed
>into general usage (owing, perhaps, to usage in supermarket signs and
>such). Research is necessary.
It's possible. Recently, I have been seeing what I think is an example
of that. Lotteries are said to have 'prizes', but the trade term for
any given lottery is "prizing". I have seen and heard advertisements
recently that use the term "prizing", as in "A million dollars in
prizing".
Are there other examples?
Mike Lyle
Few, I think, as vile as "trouser" and "pant".
--
Mike.
Oleg Lego
>
>Bob Cunningham wrote:
>> On 9 Jul 2006 08:49:55 -0700, "Mike Lyle"
>> <mike_l...@yahoo.co.uk> said:
>>
>> > Bob Cunningham wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> > > Are there different varieties of clover?
>>
>> > Are there ever? You ain't no farm boy, Bob.
>>
>> That's true, although as a boy in Utah I did stay with
>> relatives on a farm from time to time.
>>
>> The farmers there grew alfalfa for hay. So far as I knew,
>> no one grew clover for any purpose.
>
>I wonder if they actually did without your knowledge, or if the local
>climate suited alfalfa better. I rather think it may be more
>drought-resistant, as it roots deeply (which also means it's good at
>bringing nutrients up from the subsoil).
There are two distinct kinds of alfalfa available in these parts. One
is the "tap-root" variety, good for bringing up deep nutrients and
moisture, and the other is a shallow-rooted spreading variety, good
for helping to resist soil erosion. The best alfalfa fields have both.
Good hay fields also have grasses to reduce the overall protein
concentration. My field is 2/3 alfalfa (half tap-root, half
spreading), and the other 1/3 is Meadow Brome and Crested Wheat Gras.