"Both lanes of the six-lane expressway"
Maria
[As you can see on your screen, traffic is tied up on] "both lanes of
the six-lane expressway."
Yes, I knew what the newscaster meant, but it still caught my
aue-trained attention.
--
Maria
There's only one 'n' in my email address, and it's not in my first name.
T.H. Entity
wrought:
>Heard this morning on a television newscast about a traffic accident:
>
>[As you can see on your screen, traffic is tied up on] "both lanes of
>the six-lane expressway."
>
>Yes, I knew what the newscaster meant, but it still caught my
>aue-trained attention.
That would have been "both carriageways" in BrE. In AmE too?
--
THE
"If you or I use a word inappropriately, that's an error. If a newspaper
uses a word inappropriately, that's a citation source for the dictionaries."
-- Peter Moylan
dontbother
> On Wed, 13 Sep 2006 15:37:53 GMT, "Maria"
> <maria...@sbcglobal.net> wrought:
>
>>Heard this morning on a television newscast about a traffic
>>accident:
>>
>>[As you can see on your screen, traffic is tied up on] "both lanes
>>of the six-lane expressway."
>>
>>Yes, I knew what the newscaster meant, but it still caught my
>>aue-trained attention.
>
> That would have been "both carriageways" in BrE. In AmE too?
Nah, they don't have carriages there, except for babes-in-arms, but it
would've been "in both directions of the six-lane freeway" in
California lingo.
--
Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan.
Unmunged email: /at/easypeasy.com
"Impatience is the mother of misery."
Brian Wickham
<dontb...@mushmail.mom> wrote:
>>
>> That would have been "both carriageways" in BrE. In AmE too?
>
>Nah, they don't have carriages there, except for babes-in-arms, but it
>would've been "in both directions of the six-lane freeway" in
>California lingo.
Same thing in New York lingo also.
Brian Wickham
dontbother
> dontbother <dontb...@mushmail.mom> wrote:
>
>>> That would have been "both carriageways" in BrE. In AmE too?
>>
>>Nah, they don't have carriages there, except for babes-in-arms,
>>but it would've been "in both directions of the six-lane freeway"
>>in California lingo.
>
> Same thing in New York lingo also.
But you don't have freeways there.
Adrian Bailey
news:Xns983EC...@139.175.55.249...
> T.H. Entity <ggu...@yahoo.com> wrote
>
> > On Wed, 13 Sep 2006 15:37:53 GMT, "Maria"
> > <maria...@sbcglobal.net> wrought:
> >
> >>Heard this morning on a television newscast about a traffic
> >>accident:
> >>
> >>[As you can see on your screen, traffic is tied up on] "both lanes
> >>of the six-lane expressway."
> >>
> >>Yes, I knew what the newscaster meant, but it still caught my
> >>aue-trained attention.
> >
> > That would have been "both carriageways" in BrE. In AmE too?
>
> Nah, they don't have carriages there, except for babes-in-arms, but it
> would've been "in both directions of the six-lane freeway" in
> California lingo.
How about "both sides"?
Adrian
Salvatore Volatile
Say what? New Yorkers don't speak of "freeways" except in reference to
locations, far from New York, that call them thus (e.g. Los Angeles).
A native New Yorker might speak of "the six-lane highway" (at least if
he's younger than Arjay) or "the six-lane expressway" (which might be too
specific, but probably will do).
--
Salvatore Volatile
T.H. Entity
wrought:
Any Americans here done any road-building? I find it hard to believe
that they don't have a proper word to designate the two strips of
paving that are laid and only later divided into lanes with paint,
commonly like thusliwise for a "six-lane freeway":
embankment )
verge )
hard shoulder )
inside lane ) Northbound carriageway
middle lane )
outside lane )
kerb )
central reservation
kerb )
outside lane )
middle lane ) Southbound carriageway
inside lane )
hard shoulder )
verge )
embankment )
(I know we've done "hard shoulder", "central reservations" and "verge"
before, but I don't remember us dispensing with "carriageway".)
Mark Brader
>>>>> Heard this morning on a television newscast about a traffic
>>>>> accident:
>>>>>
>>>>> [As you can see on your screen, traffic is tied up on] "both lanes
>>>>> of the six-lane expressway."
>>>>>
Ross Howard:
>>>> That would have been "both carriageways" in BrE. In AmE too?
>
> Any Americans here done any road-building? I find it hard to believe
> that they don't have a proper word to designate the two strips of
> paving that are laid and only later divided into lanes ...
Hey, if British railways can get by without a singular word for a
switch, why not?
In Leftpondia if we really need a singular word that means "carriageway",
we get by with "roadway". For most purposes we use "lanes" with a modifier
that applies to that group. What the newscaster meant (modulo rotation)
was "both the southbound lanes and the northbound lanes". Some cities,
such as Toronto, have freeways with four roadways (carriageways), so:
<http://www.globalairphotos.com/images/on/toronto/2002/toh2002_119.jpg>.
With these roads we use terms like "westbound express lanes".
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "If you want a 20th century solution, the
m...@vex.net | obvious answer is helicopters!" -- Bob Scheurle
My text in this article is in the public domain.
R H Draney
>
>Maria Conlon:
>>>>>> Heard this morning on a television newscast about a traffic
>>>>>> accident:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [As you can see on your screen, traffic is tied up on] "both lanes
>>>>>> of the six-lane expressway."
>
>we get by with "roadway". For most purposes we use "lanes" with a modifier
>that applies to that group. What the newscaster meant (modulo rotation)
>was "both the southbound lanes and the northbound lanes". Some cities,
>such as Toronto, have freeways with four roadways (carriageways), so:
><http://www.globalairphotos.com/images/on/toronto/2002/toh2002_119.jpg>.
>With these roads we use terms like "westbound express lanes".
Yes, it's a question of the same name for both a larger and a smaller thing...a
"lane" is the course that a single vehicle can take, or the entire set of
courses running in a given direction...it's like "day" meaning "twenty-four
hours" as well as "the length of time the sun is up"; the only time it causes
trouble is when someone asks how many days you spent on a project....
By the by, there was a filler piece in yesterday's paper about the average
number of lanes, by state, on American highways...Alaska was lowest with 2.06
lanes, New Jersey was at the other extreme....r
--
"Screwing Type Gloomy - Giant Swing" --- Gloomy makes your world turn
around! Watch out for this charming toy teddy-bear that amazes you with
his agile walking skills through a special wind-up mechanism. Enjoy the
joyful company of this active playing wonder right away!
A. Gwilliam
> By the by, there was a filler piece in yesterday's paper about the
> average number of lanes, by state, on American highways...Alaska was
> lowest with 2.06 lanes, New Jersey was at the other extreme....r
When I visited Buenos Aires about eight years ago, one of its main
avenues claimed to have the most number of lanes of any road in the
world. At what appeared to be its widest point I counted a total of 23
lanes, including 4 or so turning lanes.
I can't for the life of me remember the name of the road, unfortunately.
--
A. Gwilliam
To e-mail me, replace "bottomless_pit" with "devnull"
Jonathan Morton
> Hey, if British railways can get by without a singular word for a
> switch, why not?
In technical railway parlance, there is such a word - it's "switch", as
in "S&C" for "switch and crossing" work.
We don't need a singular word for "points", though, because (like pants)
they only come in sets.
Regards
Jonathan
Fred
"Adrian Bailey" <da...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ZkWNg.38198$89.1...@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
Too clear and concise. It'll never do.
Mark Brader
>> In Leftpondia if we really need a singular word that means "carriageway",
>> we get by with "roadway". For most purposes we use "lanes" with a modifier
>> that applies to that group. What the newscaster meant (modulo rotation)
R.H. Draney:
> Yes, it's a question of the same name for both a larger and a smaller
> thing... a "lane" is the course that a single vehicle can take, or the
> entire set of courses running in a given direction...
No! At least, this is certainly not what I consider either correct or
common usage. If it was, one could speak of the southbound "lane" to
mean an entire carriageway.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "I'd opt for Oz, myself."
m...@vex.net --Buck Henry
rzed
news:12gh62q...@corp.supernews.com:
> Mark Brader:
>>> In Leftpondia if we really need a singular word that means
>>> "carriageway", we get by with "roadway". For most purposes we
>>> use "lanes" with a modifier that applies to that group. What
>>> the newscaster meant (modulo rotation) was "both the
>>> southbound lanes and the northbound lanes"...
>
> R.H. Draney:
>> Yes, it's a question of the same name for both a larger and a
>> smaller thing... a "lane" is the course that a single vehicle
>> can take, or the entire set of courses running in a given
>> direction...
>
> No! At least, this is certainly not what I consider either
> correct or common usage. If it was, one could speak of the
> southbound "lane" to mean an entire carriageway.
As indeed we do when it's appropriate. The other day, the entire
southbound lane of US 29 was blocked by an overturned cement (that
is, concrete) truck. At the point where the blockage occurred,
there are two through lanes, one left-turn lane, and one right-
turn lane, all southbound. The four northbound lanes were
unaffected, so the northbound lane was unblocked.
--
rzed
Mark Brader
> When I visited Buenos Aires about eight years ago, one of its main
> avenues claimed to have the most number of lanes of any road in the
> world. At what appeared to be its widest point I counted a total of 23
> lanes, including 4 or so turning lanes.
Hmm. The misc.transport.road FAQ <http://www.roadfan.com/mtrfaq.html>
has this question and answer:
Q: Which freeways have the most lanes at one point (not counting toll
booths or ramps)?
A: In North America, Ontario Highway 401 (
http://members.aol.com/hwys/OntHwys/OntHwys401Hist.html ) in metro
Toronto has 20 lanes between 4 roadways, and I-285 north of I-85
near Atlanta's Hartsfield-Jackson Airport has 18, also between
4 roadways. Two roads in South America often mentioned as widest
in the world actually have fewer lanes: Avenida 9 de Julio (part
of National Route 14) in Buenos Aires, Argentina, has 16 (photos:
http://photobucket.com/albums/e100/jamessidney1/buenos%20aires/ ), and
the Monumental Axis in Brasilia, Brazil, widest in the world from outer
edge to outer edge, has 12 (most of the right-of-way is median). In the
United States, I-75 north of the northern I-285 interchange in northern
Atlanta has 16 lanes, 7 SB and 9 NB, for the most along 2 roadways; I-5
in downtown Seattle has 16 spread across 4 roadways (4 C/D + 4 mainline
+ 4 mainline + 4 C/D). ...
But looking at this image:
<http://www.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=buenos+aires&ie=UTF8&z=18&ll=-34.592815,-58.381578&spn=0.003175,0.006781&t=k>
I think A. has it about right. Is that the spot, A.?
(As far as I can tell from some small maps I googled up, this is indeed
part of Avenida 9 de Julio, though I can't confirm that *all* of the
carriageways you see are part of it. Note that the exact wording of 12.3
is actually limited to freeways; if you pan south, Av. 9 de Julio apparently
turns into one, but by then it has a lot less lanes.)
--
Mark Brader | "This was followed by a vocal response which
Toronto | would now be reserved for kicking a ball in a net."
m...@vex.net | --Derrick Beckett
Mark Brader
> > Hey, if British railways can get by without a singular word for a
> > switch, why not?
> In technical railway parlance, there is such a word - it's "switch", as
> in "S&C" for "switch and crossing" work.
Let's just say that if that was an established usage among British
railway professionals, I would have expected to come across it.
> We don't need a singular word for "points", though, because (like pants)
> they only come in sets.
Yeah. Our switch is your "set of points", just like your carriageway
is our "set of lanes".
--
Mark Brader "I always hoped that when someone quoted me
Toronto it would be because I said something profound."
m...@vex.net -- Chris Volpe
Mark Brader
>>> Yes, it's a question of the same name for both a larger and a
>>> smaller thing... a "lane" is the course that a single vehicle
>>> can take, or the entire set of courses running in a given
>>> direction...
Mark Brader:
>> No! At least, this is certainly not what I consider either
>> correct or common usage. If it was, one could speak of the
>> southbound "lane" to mean an entire carriageway.
Dick Zantow:
> As indeed we do when it's appropriate. The other day, the entire
> southbound lane of US 29 was blocked by an overturned cement (that
> is, concrete) truck. At the point where the blockage occurred,
> there are two through lanes, one left-turn lane, and one right-
> turn lane, all southbound. The four northbound lanes were
> unaffected, so the northbound lane was unblocked.
I tried to find this in Google News, but without success. However,
my searches turned up similar reports where "lane" was indeed used
in the manner that R.H. and Dick describe. Thanks for the correction!
Now I wonder if this is a regional usage or something, or if I just
failed to become aware of it.
--
Mark Brader | "It can be amusing, even if painful, to watch the
Toronto | ethnocentrism of those who are convinced their
m...@vex.net | local standards are universal." -- Tom Chapin
A. Gwilliam
A. = Andrew
I'm not absolutely certain, but Av. 9 de Julio sounds right, and a look
at a couple of other maps seems to fit in with my recollection. I do
remember that part of the way down the road was the impressive monument
to the national flag.
This is all from my sketchy memory, but the number of lanes fluctuated
quite a bit along the avenue's length, both because the space for the
road narrowed as it got close to the heart of the city, and because of
the traffic management. The road wasn't simply a huge width of lanes,
though; there were divisions between some of the lanes heading in the
same direction, as well of course as a division between the northbound
and southbound halves of the road. You can clearly see this in the
Google Maps photo that you linked to above.
Incidentally, there were pavement cafes on both sidewalks!
I do have a truly lousy photo from about the widest part of the road;
you can clearly count nine northbound lanes (although they are
converging), plus perhaps one other lane by the sidewalk acting as
either a turnoff or a sort of service lane, and at the very closest
edge of the picture it appears that yet another lane is just coming to
an end as it merges into one of the others. That would all tally with
my recollection of 11 lanes in one direction. Funnily enough, you can
only really see one car in the picture.
Maria
> R.H. Draney:
>>>> Yes, it's a question of the same name for both a larger and a
>>>> smaller thing... a "lane" is the course that a single vehicle
>>>> can take, or the entire set of courses running in a given
>>>> direction...
>
> Mark Brader:
>>> No! At least, this is certainly not what I consider either
>>> correct or common usage. If it was, one could speak of the
>>> southbound "lane" to mean an entire carriageway.
>
> Dick Zantow:
>> As indeed we do when it's appropriate. The other day, the entire
>> southbound lane of US 29 was blocked by an overturned cement (that
>> is, concrete) truck. At the point where the blockage occurred,
>> there are two through lanes, one left-turn lane, and one right-
>> turn lane, all southbound. The four northbound lanes were
>> unaffected, so the northbound lane was unblocked.
>
> I tried to find this in Google News, but without success. However,
> my searches turned up similar reports where "lane" was indeed used
> in the manner that R.H. and Dick describe. Thanks for the correction!
> Now I wonder if this is a regional usage or something, or if I just
> failed to become aware of it.
My guess: regional. Here (near Detroit), we would say "all (or
both)northbound lanes" to mean all (or both) lanes headed north rather
than saying "the northbound lane" to mean all or both northbound
lanes... _unless_ there is only one lane headed north. (The same usage
applies to other directions, too. Have I covered all the bases?)
--
Maria
Resident of southeast Michigan, near Detroit; native of east Tennessee.
Mark Brader
Marc Fannin, who maintains the misc.transport.road FAQ list, and he had
a comment on this point. Earlier I (Mark Brader) wrote:
> In Leftpondia if we really need a singular word that means "carriageway",
> we get by with "roadway". For most purposes we use "lanes" with a
> modifier...
Marc's comment was to cite an old thread from misc.transport.road,
in which it is suggested that, among other things, that "carriageway"
and "roadway" should have *distinct* meanings. (Note: there is a strong
predominance of Americans among the newsgroup's participants.) Here's
the thread:
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.transport.road/browse_frm/thread/8ea5bebecc027d69
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "It is one thing to praise discipline, and another
m...@vex.net | to submit to it." -- Miguel de Cervantes, 1613
the Omrud
b...@sbcglobal.net says...
> My guess: regional. Here (near Detroit), we would say "all (or
> both)northbound lanes" to mean all (or both) lanes headed north rather
> than saying "the northbound lane" to mean all or both northbound
> lanes... _unless_ there is only one lane headed north. (The same usage
> applies to other directions, too. Have I covered all the bases?)
UK usage agrees with yours - a "lane" is one car wide. The news often
tells how how many, or which, lanes are blocked. But there is an all-
inclusive plural of "lane" which is "carrigeway". That is, all of the
lanes going in one direction of a limited access road are together
described as a carriageway. So, "the northbound carriageway is
blocked" is bad news", but "a northbound lane is blocked" is less
serious". "Both carriageways of the M6 are blocked" is very
significant.
"limited access road" is not a normal term in UK English though. We
call it a "dual carriageway".
--
David
=====
Shinagawa, Japan
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
HVS
Those aren't really the correct comparitive terms, as a UK dual-
carriageway isn't by definition a "limited access" road: the
latter implies grade-separated intersections/interchanges.
A UK "dual carriageway" is what I grew up in Canada calling a
"divided highway", not a "limited access" road.
--
Cheers, Harvey
Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed
For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van
mike.j...@gmail.com
Mark Brader wrote:
> Hey, if British railways can get by without a singular word for a
> switch, why not?
>
Turnout is used quite a lot. Generically, this type of track hardware
is called "switch and crossing work" in Britain. Rail workers often
abbreviate this to "s and c".
the Omrud
harve...@ntlworld.com says...
> On 15 Sep 2006, the Omrud wrote
>
> > "limited access road" is not a normal term in UK English
> > though. We call it a "dual carriageway".
>
> Those aren't really the correct comparitive terms, as a UK dual-
> carriageway isn't by definition a "limited access" road: the
> latter implies grade-separated intersections/interchanges.
Yes, you are right. All limited-access roads are dual carriageways but
not all dual carriageways are limited access roads.
> A UK "dual carriageway" is what I grew up in Canada calling a
> "divided highway", not a "limited access" road.
I'm not familiar with "divided highway". Is it North American regional,
or is it only Canadian?
Mike Barnes
>In article <Xns983F71B6...@62.253.170.163>,
>harve...@ntlworld.com says...
>
>> On 15 Sep 2006, the Omrud wrote
>>
>> > "limited access road" is not a normal term in UK English
>> > though. We call it a "dual carriageway".
>>
>> Those aren't really the correct comparitive terms, as a UK dual-
>> carriageway isn't by definition a "limited access" road: the
>> latter implies grade-separated intersections/interchanges.
>
>Yes, you are right. All limited-access roads are dual carriageways
Not quite. For example, The A6144(M) Carrington Spur is a single-
carriageway motorway. Or it was last time I looked.
Just don't ask what the speed limit is.
--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England
Salvatore Volatile
>> "divided highway", not a "limited access" road.
>
> I'm not familiar with "divided highway". Is it North American regional,
> or is it only Canadian?
"Divided highway" exists in my dialect, at least.
--
Salvatore Volatile
HVS
> In article <Xns983F71B6...@62.253.170.163>,
> harve...@ntlworld.com says...
>> "divided highway", not a "limited access" road.
>
> I'm not familiar with "divided highway". Is it North American
> regional, or is it only Canadian?
Not sure; I always assumed it was general-use NAmer. I see that
SVWUTBA has confirmed it's part of his vocabulary.)
HVS
What's the speed limit on the A6144(M), Mike?
Mike Barnes
>On 15 Sep 2006, Mike Barnes wrote
>> In alt.usage.english, the Omrud wrote:
>
>>> Yes, you are right. All limited-access roads are dual
>>> carriageways [...]
>>
>> Not quite. For example, The A6144(M) Carrington Spur is a
>> single- carriageway motorway. Or it was last time I looked.
>>
>> Just don't ask what the speed limit is.
>
>What's the speed limit on the A6144(M), Mike?
I'm glad you asked me that.
No, really.
You caused me to look it up, and by Jove, the A6144(M) was demotorwayed
on 24th May this year. It's now the plain A6144, with a 50 limit.
The limit used to be either 60 (because was an undivided road) or 70
(because it was a motorway). Opinions varied.
Garrett Wollman
HVS <harve...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>Those aren't really the correct comparitive terms, as a UK dual-
>carriageway isn't by definition a "limited access" road: the
>latter implies grade-separated intersections/interchanges.
Actually, no -- although many people are confused by the jargon.
A "limited-access" road is a road to which the abutting property
owners do not have a right of access. In engineering jargon, such
roads are called "expressways", but that term is subject to regional
variation (in both legal and popular usage) that "limited access" is
not.[1]
A "controlled access" road is a kind of limited-access road where
access is provided only by interchanges. In engineering jargon,
that's a "freeway", but again that term varies regionally. (In places
where the local dialect uses "expressway" for this sense, use of the
term "freeway" would mark the speaker as an out-of-towner --
stereotypically from California.)
>A UK "dual carriageway" is what I grew up in Canada calling a
>"divided highway", not a "limited access" road.
Agreed -- and that's the term used on signage ("DIVIDED HIGHWAY AHEAD"
/ "DIVIDED HIGHWAY ENDS") as well.
-GAWollman
[1] For example, here in Massachusetts, the term "expressway" -- or
"express highway" in the General Laws -- means "freeway" and not
"expressway" as civil engineers understand the terms.
--
Garrett A. Wollman | As the Constitution endures, persons in every
wol...@csail.mit.edu | generation can invoke its principles in their own
Opinions not those | search for greater freedom.
of MIT or CSAIL. | - A. Kennedy, Lawrence v. Texas, 539 U.S. 558 (2003)
Robert Lieblich
[ ... ]
> Yes, you are right. All limited-access roads are dual carriageways but
> not all dual carriageways are limited access roads.
Quibble: U.S. 15 bypasses Gettysburg, PA. to the east. It was designed
to be a divided limited-access road, but for many years only one of
the two halves had been paved and opened to traffic. The ramps were
built to connect to that half. The roadway at that time was one lane
in each direction with a double yellow line painted down the middle.
So it was a limited-access road that was not a dual carriageway.
I have encountered the same situation on other roadways. The West
Virginia Turnpike has always been limited access, and for many years a
long section of it was one lane in each direction with no divider.
There is a similar situation on some roads in Nova Scotia, where I
recently spent a week and drove a couple of them. There was a strech
of the Baltimore Beltway several miles long that for many years was
limited access but one lane in each direction, no divider. And I
vaguely recall still others like that.
We now return you to your regular discussion of traffic and roadways.
--
Bob Lieblich
Motorist manque
John Holmes
>> "divided highway", not a "limited access" road.
>
> I'm not familiar with "divided highway". Is it North American
> regional, or is it only Canadian?
It's common in Australia.
--
Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au
A. Gwilliam
> There was a strech of the Baltimore Beltway
Could you define "Beltway" for a Rightpondian?
Robert Lieblich wrote in his sig:
> Bob Lieblich
> Motorist manque
A useful tip:
On MsWin keyboards, using the "Alt Gr" key with vowels gives them an
acute accent. It only works with the "traditional" English vowel
letters (a, e, i, o, u), unfortunately; but it does work with capitals.
Blinky the Shark
> Robert Lieblich wrote:
>
>> There was a strech of the Baltimore Beltway
>
> Could you define "Beltway" for a Rightpondian?
>
> Robert Lieblich wrote in his sig:
>
>> Bob Lieblich
>> Motorist manque
>
> A useful tip:
> On MsWin keyboards, using the "Alt Gr" key with vowels gives them an
> acute accent. It only works with the "traditional" English vowel
> letters (a, e, i, o, u), unfortunately; but it does work with capitals.
I believe the "Gr" key is Rightpondian. (But there are other ways to
create such characters as "é" on this, the other side.)
--
Blinky RLU 297263
Killing all posts from Google Groups
The Usenet Improvement Project: http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html
Peter Moylan
> Brian Wickham <bwickham@NO~SPAM.nyc.rr.com> wrote
>> dontbother <dontb...@mushmail.mom> wrote:
>>
>>>> That would have been "both carriageways" in BrE. In AmE too?
>>> Nah, they don't have carriages there, except for babes-in-arms,
>>> but it would've been "in both directions of the six-lane freeway"
>>> in California lingo.
>
> But you don't have freeways there.
>
Six lanes of highway have taken their place.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
"And I can see it oh so clearly now"
Peter Moylan
>> A UK "dual carriageway" is what I grew up in Canada calling a
>> "divided highway", not a "limited access" road.
>
> I'm not familiar with "divided highway". Is it North American
> regional, or is it only Canadian?
"Divided road" is the usual Australian term for what you would call a
dual carriageway. We're less likely to say "divided highway", perhaps
because urban divided roads (which are not highways) are so common.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain
eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer
receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet
address could disappear at any time.
Don Aitken
wrote:
>A. Gwilliam wrote:
>> Robert Lieblich wrote:
>>
>>> There was a strech of the Baltimore Beltway
>>
>> Could you define "Beltway" for a Rightpondian?
>>
>> Robert Lieblich wrote in his sig:
>>
>>> Bob Lieblich
>>> Motorist manque
>>
>> A useful tip:
>> On MsWin keyboards, using the "Alt Gr" key with vowels gives them an
>> acute accent. It only works with the "traditional" English vowel
>> letters (a, e, i, o, u), unfortunately; but it does work with capitals.
>
>I believe the "Gr" key is Rightpondian. (But there are other ways to
>create such characters as "é" on this, the other side.)
The right Alt key is labelled "Alt Gr" on machines sold in Europe, but
it works exactly the same way whether so labelled or not.
--
Don Aitken
Mail to the From: address is not read.
To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com"
Robert Lieblich
>
> Robert Lieblich wrote:
>
> > There was a strech of the Baltimore Beltway
>
> Could you define "Beltway" for a Rightpondian?
A road that circles a city. Actually, I think it was intended as a
proper noun, although I have seen the term in rare generic usage, no
doubt by analogy. Wikipedia seems to indicate that it's now a generic
term <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beltway>, but that's contrary to my
experience. Whatever.
I know of only two roads actually bearing the name "Beltway," one
around Baltimore and one around Washington (the latter called "the
Capital Beltway"). There are similar roads in many other places, but
they have different names. For example, the tendency in Texas is to
call them "Loops," and there's a Circumferential Highway planned to
circle Nashua, New Hampshire, though most of it remains unconstructed.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumferential_Highway_(Nashua)>. Not
all roads of this sort are limited- or controlled-access.
The first Wikipedia article I cited has a useful list of such roads,
but it is a bit misleading in consiging the Capital Beltway to D.C.
In actuality, all of the road except for a tiny sliver runs through
Maryland and Virginia. In similar fashion, the Baltimore Beltway lies
outside the Baltimore city limits. Also, many of the roads it lists,
such as the two in Massachusetts, do not form complete loops, and
some, again including the two in Massachusetts, never will.
> Robert Lieblich wrote in his sig:
>
> > Bob Lieblich
> > Motorist manque
>
> A useful tip:
> On MsWin keyboards, using the "Alt Gr" key with vowels gives them an
> acute accent. It only works with the "traditional" English vowel
> letters (a, e, i, o, u), unfortunately; but it does work with capitals.
Thank you.
--
Bob Lieblich
Accenter manqué
LFS
> "A. Gwilliam" wrote:
>
>>Robert Lieblich wrote:
>>
>>
>>>There was a strech of the Baltimore Beltway
>>
>>Could you define "Beltway" for a Rightpondian?
>
>
> A road that circles a city. Actually, I think it was intended as a
> proper noun, although I have seen the term in rare generic usage, no
> doubt by analogy. Wikipedia seems to indicate that it's now a generic
> term <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beltway>, but that's contrary to my
> experience. Whatever.
>
> I know of only two roads actually bearing the name "Beltway," one
> around Baltimore and one around Washington (the latter called "the
> Capital Beltway"). There are similar roads in many other places, but
> they have different names. For example, the tendency in Texas is to
> call them "Loops," and there's a Circumferential Highway planned to
> circle Nashua, New Hampshire, though most of it remains unconstructed.
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumferential_Highway_(Nashua)>. Not
> all roads of this sort are limited- or controlled-access.
>
Hm. Beltways, loops, circumferential highways - the Rightpondian "ring
road" seems tame in comparison. Bet you don't have gyratory systems,
though (Hi Robin!)
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
the Omrud
Surely the speed limit on motorways relates to their being dual
carriageways rather than a specific rule.
--
David
=====
Mike Barnes
>Mike Barnes <mikeb...@bluebottle.com> had it:
>
>> In alt.usage.english, HVS wrote:
>> >On 15 Sep 2006, Mike Barnes wrote
>> >> In alt.usage.english, the Omrud wrote:
>> >
>> >>> Yes, you are right. All limited-access roads are dual
>> >>> carriageways [...]
>> >>
>> >> Not quite. For example, The A6144(M) Carrington Spur is a
>> >> single- carriageway motorway. Or it was last time I looked.
>> >>
>> >> Just don't ask what the speed limit is.
>> >
>> >What's the speed limit on the A6144(M), Mike?
>>
>> I'm glad you asked me that.
>>
>> No, really.
>>
>> You caused me to look it up, and by Jove, the A6144(M) was demotorwayed
>> on 24th May this year. It's now the plain A6144, with a 50 limit.
>>
>> The limit used to be either 60 (because was an undivided road) or 70
>> (because it was a motorway). Opinions varied.
>
>Surely the speed limit on motorways relates to their being dual
>carriageways rather than a specific rule.
http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/09.htm#103
the Omrud
> In alt.usage.english, the Omrud wrote:
> >Mike Barnes <mikeb...@bluebottle.com> had it:
> >
> >> The limit used to be either 60 (because was an undivided road) or 70
> >> (because it was a motorway). Opinions varied.
> >
> >Surely the speed limit on motorways relates to their being dual
> >carriageways rather than a specific rule.
>
> http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/09.htm#103
Word.
--
David
=====
LFS
> Mike Barnes <mikeb...@bluebottle.com> had it:
>
>
>>In alt.usage.english, the Omrud wrote:
>>
>>>Mike Barnes <mikeb...@bluebottle.com> had it:
>>>
>>>
>>>>The limit used to be either 60 (because was an undivided road) or 70
>>>>(because it was a motorway). Opinions varied.
>>>
>>>Surely the speed limit on motorways relates to their being dual
>>>carriageways rather than a specific rule.
>>
>>http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/09.htm#103
>
>
> Word.
>
<giggle>
You back then? Was it good?
the Omrud
Brill. Three days work, but three days holiday before. Kyoto is
well worth a visit and the bullet train just works. Impressively
boring. I can get around quite well on my own now, which really
throws the natives - they assume that foreigners will need escorts.
It was something of a surprise to some of them to discover that
people in France don't routinely understand English.
--
David
=====
Mark Brader
> Kyoto is well worth a visit and the bullet train just works...
> I can get around quite well on my own now, which really
> throws the natives - they assume that foreigners will need escorts.
> It was something of a surprise to some of them to discover that
> people in France don't routinely understand English.
How'd that last point happen to come up?
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "Don't let it drive you crazy...
m...@vex.net | Leave the driving to us!" --Wayne & Shuster
the Omrud
> "David":
> > Kyoto is well worth a visit and the bullet train just works...
> > I can get around quite well on my own now, which really
> > throws the natives - they assume that foreigners will need escorts.
> > It was something of a surprise to some of them to discover that
> > people in France don't routinely understand English.
>
> How'd that last point happen to come up?
A young Japanese colleague, who speaks reasonable English, likes to
spend his holiday cycling. He found out that France is cyclist-
friendly and booked a cycling holiday there, with a rented bike. It
was only when he got into the French countryside that he discovered
he could not communicate at all with the locals. He had just assumed
that people in Europe would speak some English.
So they don't routinely realise that Europeans are used to travelling
in countries where they can't be understood. I can cope in a simple
way in most European countries by application of English, Latin,
French, very rusty Russian and rudimentary German, but I was reduced
to pointing in Portugal where (as I have said before), the language
looks like Spanish but sounds like Martian.
In Japan, most of the signs you need for navigation, including all
all railway signs and many bus signs, are in English, as are those on
ATMs and in hotels etc.
--
David
=====
Robert Bannister
> In alt.usage.english, the Omrud wrote:
>>Surely the speed limit on motorways relates to their being dual
>>carriageways rather than a specific rule.
>
>
> http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/09.htm#103
>
I would hate that. I expect all roads to have specific speed signs (with
repeaters after every junction or on every access road). Our inner city
freeways frequently have varying speed limits and I have seen the same
thing in Germany, particularly around areas where the traffic is usually
very heavy.
--
Rob Bannister
Salvatore Volatile
> Robert Lieblich wrote:
>
>> There was a strech of the Baltimore Beltway
>
> Could you define "Beltway" for a Rightpondian?
I think it's ApproxBrE "Ring Road", isn't it?
--
Salvatore Volatile
Tony Cooper
<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>A. Gwilliam wrote:
>> Robert Lieblich wrote:
>>
>>> There was a strech of the Baltimore Beltway
>>
>> Could you define "Beltway" for a Rightpondian?
>
>I think it's ApproxBrE "Ring Road", isn't it?
As far as I know, there are only certain sections of certain
interstates that are called "beltways". Most are just "bypasses".
I-95 runs through Jacksonville FL, but there is also I-295 that
bypasses downtown Jacksonville. It splits of from I-95 entering Jax,
and rejoins I-95 leaving Jax.
"Ring Road"s are any such configuration going around a major city in
the UK. Do I have that right?
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL
Peter Moylan
> In Japan, most of the signs you need for navigation, including all
> all railway signs and many bus signs, are in English, as are those on
> ATMs and in hotels etc.
Only fair. On Queensland's Gold Coast, a great many of the street signs
are in Japanese.
Blinky the Shark
> On Mon, 18 Sep 2006 01:08:08 +0000 (UTC), Salvatore Volatile
><m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>>A. Gwilliam wrote:
>>> Robert Lieblich wrote:
>>>
>>>> There was a strech of the Baltimore Beltway
>>>
>>> Could you define "Beltway" for a Rightpondian?
>>
>>I think it's ApproxBrE "Ring Road", isn't it?
>
> As far as I know, there are only certain sections of certain
> interstates that are called "beltways". Most are just "bypasses".
> I-95 runs through Jacksonville FL, but there is also I-295 that
> bypasses downtown Jacksonville. It splits of from I-95 entering Jax,
> and rejoins I-95 leaving Jax.
One beltway that comes to mind is I465 around Indianapolis, Indiana.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-465
the Omrud
The limits given in the Highway Code are defaults, so it's not
confusing. If there's a sign, you obey the sign. If there isn't a
sign then you know that the speed limit is as describe above.
The vast majority of UK motorways have no special speed limit,
although there are variable speed limits on the M25 near Heathrow and
the M42 near Solihull which bring the speed down to increase the
traffic flow during busy periods. Other than those, and temporary
limits for road works, the speed limit in the motorway is 70 mph. A
few urban motorways-grade roads have lower limits (e.g. the Mancunian
Way A57(M) is marked at 50 mph.
--
David
=====
R H Draney
>
>On 16 Sep 2006 09:37:49 GMT, Blinky the Shark <no....@box.invalid>
>wrote:
>
>>A. Gwilliam wrote:
>>> On MsWin keyboards, using the "Alt Gr" key with vowels gives them an
>>> acute accent. It only works with the "traditional" English vowel
>>> letters (a, e, i, o, u), unfortunately; but it does work with capitals.
>>
>>I believe the "Gr" key is Rightpondian. (But there are other ways to
>>create such characters as "é" on this, the other side.)
>
>The right Alt key is labelled "Alt Gr" on machines sold in Europe, but
>it works exactly the same way whether so labelled or not.
Like fun it does....
Unless the user of the machine has made special arrangements in its
configuration, the right Alt key on a Leftpondian PC keyboard acts exactly the
same as the left Alt key....r
--
"Screwing Type Gloomy - Giant Swing" --- Gloomy makes your world turn
around! Watch out for this charming toy teddy-bear that amazes you with
his agile walking skills through a special wind-up mechanism. Enjoy the
joyful company of this active playing wonder right away!
Mike Barnes
>Mike Barnes wrote:
>
>> In alt.usage.english, the Omrud wrote:
>
>>>Surely the speed limit on motorways relates to their being dual
>>>carriageways rather than a specific rule.
>> http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/09.htm#103
>>
>
>I would hate that. I expect all roads to have specific speed signs
>(with repeaters after every junction or on every access road).
That would be an awful lot of signs. And as you can see from the table,
there are often several speed limits according to the class of vehicle.
> Our inner city freeways frequently have varying speed limits and I
>have seen the same thing in Germany, particularly around areas where
>the traffic is usually very heavy.
I'm not sure whether you mean varying with time or location. But
whichever you mean, it's the same here (except that varying with time is
pretty rare). As it says under the table, "These are the national speed
limits and apply to all roads unless signs show otherwise".
R J Valentine
...
} The vast majority of UK motorways have no special speed limit,
} although there are variable speed limits on the M25 near Heathrow and
} the M42 near Solihull which bring the speed down to increase the
} traffic flow during busy periods.
How does that increase the traffic flow? The flow is about thirty cars a
minute per lane at all reasonable speeds in heavy traffic. Reducing speed
limits just increases the number of cars stuck on the road.
--
rjv
the Omrud
Nope. Reducing the speed has two positive effects. It reduces the
safe distance between cars, which means that the road can hold more
cars per mile. And it dramatically reduces the jams caused by slight
perturbations in the traffic flow. For these reasons, when the road
is full to capacity, the actual time taken to get to the end is
reduced when the limit is set to 50 mph.
--
David
=====
R J Valentine
How is that different from what I said?
--
rjv
Peter Duncanson
Roughly.
Encarta defines "beltway" as:
highway skirting urban area: a highway that surrounds or skirts
an urban area
and it defines "ring road" as
U.K.
Same as beltway
COED says:
ring road noun a bypass encircling a town.
These definitions are incomplete.
There are some ring roads that might once have skirted an urban area
but no longer do so because of urban expansion.
There are also some ring roads well within urban areas -- by design.
For example my nearest "large" city, Belfast, has an Outer Ring,
which is the road labelled A55 on this map:
http://www.multimap.com/map/browse.cgi?lat=54.596&lon=-5.914&scale=200000&icon=x
This never was largely outside the urban area. It certainly isn't
now. (Because of the presence of the estuary of the River Lagan the
Outer Ring has a large gap.)
An Inner Ring is planned, and is being constructed piecemeal:
http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/roads/belfastinnerring.html
I believe this is typical of many UK cities and large towns.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
the Omrud
Cars don't become stuck so often with the lower speed limit in place,
when the road is overloaded. Not just "heavy traffic" - that's
normal. These two places routinely had a waiting time of up to an
hour to travel two or three miles, twice each day. With the variable
speed limit, this time does seem to be reduced.
--
David
=====
Tony Cooper
My post wasn't clear. The point I was making is that only certain
stretches of certain interstates in the US are *called* beltways. In
most cases, I think we refer to them as "the bypass" rather than "the
beltway".
I'm under the impression that "the ring road" is a term to describe
most, if not all, similar roadways in the UK.
I understand that the definitions of "ring road", "beltway" and
"bypass" are about the same.
For an interstate to be called a "bypass" in the US, it has to be a
controlled access road that branches off from the main interstate and
rejoins it on the other side of the city. It's not just an alternate
route that can be taken.
We do have alternate routes. You might see a highway marked Highway
441 and signs directing you to Highway 441-A. They are usually found
in areas where the original highway's route has been changed over time
and the old route is more congested. The old route would be the "A"
route.
We also have what are called "truck routes". If Highway 123 is a
major highway that passes through a congested area, a "truck route"
may be established so large trucks don't go through the congested area
when they aren't making a delivery in that area. The "truck route"
may be a differently numbered highway or a combination of highways.
The "truck route" may even be just a series of streets.
"Truck routes" are also chosen to provide routes where a truck will
not encounter overpasses that have low clearance or to avoid other
obstacles. "Truck routes", like bypasses, rejoin the major highway
once past the congested area.
Don Aitken
There seems to be no consistency in naming these things. London has an
outer ring (the M25) which called an orbital motorway, a middle one
called the North and South Circular Roads and an inner one called the
Ring Road. There was going to be another (between the second and
third) of which only fragments were ever built. That was called the
Motorway Box, presumably because it was approximately rectangular.
Birmingham also has three; the outer one doesn't seem to have a name,
the middle one is called Middleway, and the inner one is called
Queensway.
A. Gwilliam
> For an interstate to be called a "bypass" in the US, it has to be a
> controlled access road that branches off from the main interstate and
> rejoins it on the other side of the city. It's not just an alternate
> route that can be taken.
That sounds like quite a good definition for what would be meant by a
"bypass" in the UK. I'm surprised by its being used in the US as for
some reason the word doesn't sound very "American" to me.
I'd say that a bypass here wouldn't have to be controlled access by
definition, though, although most probably are.
Ring roads can have normal access, too.
I guess the range of types of road is the same as that for highways in
the US. Some are very much independent of neighbouring road systems,
some are just "main roads".
--
A. Gwilliam
To e-mail me, replace "bottomless_pit" with "devnull"
Mark Brader
> There seems to be no consistency in naming these things. London has an
> outer ring (the M25) which called an orbital motorway, a middle one
> called the North and South Circular Roads and an inner one called the
Ah! "Orbital motorway". *That*'s the correct translation of Beltway
(keeping in mind that Beltway is only used in naming certain specific
ones). "Ring road", in contrast, doesn't imply a motorway.
--
Mark Brader | Nature is often much more interesting than we would
Toronto | like her to be. However when we finally do understand
m...@vex.net | something, we strike our foreheads and cry "Of course!",
| and then marvel at how beautifully simple it was
| all the time. -- Leigh Palmer
Tony Cooper
<bottoml...@southernskies.co.uk> wrote:
>Tony Cooper wrote:
>
>> For an interstate to be called a "bypass" in the US, it has to be a
>> controlled access road that branches off from the main interstate and
>> rejoins it on the other side of the city. It's not just an alternate
>> route that can be taken.
>
>That sounds like quite a good definition for what would be meant by a
>"bypass" in the UK. I'm surprised by its being used in the US as for
>some reason the word doesn't sound very "American" to me.
It's a very American word to me, but I should point out that there may
be differences across the country in what some things are called. I'm
sure Areff will say that "bypass" is no longer used in the US and even
"Happy Days" couldn't revive it.
>I'd say that a bypass here wouldn't have to be controlled access by
>definition, though, although most probably are.
>
>Ring roads can have normal access, too.
>
>I guess the range of types of road is the same as that for highways in
>the US. Some are very much independent of neighbouring road systems,
>some are just "main roads".
I've never heard "motorway" used in the US. We use "Interstate", but
sometimes we (but not the government) use "Interstate" to describe an
Intrastate. In Florida, "roundabouts" are just beginning to appear,
but usually in neighborhood street settings. They've long been in
Boston, and thoroughly frighten new drivers to the area.
Then we have the Freeway, Expressway, Tollway, Turnpike, etc.
differences, but that's a subject often discussed here in aue.
Garrett Wollman
Tony Cooper <tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>I've never heard "motorway" used in the US. We use "Interstate", but
>sometimes we (but not the government) use "Interstate" to describe an
>Intrastate. In Florida, "roundabouts" are just beginning to appear,
>but usually in neighborhood street settings. They've long been in
>Boston, and thoroughly frighten new drivers to the area.
Actually, we've never had "roundabouts" in Boston. The term locally
has always been "rotary" (and in New Jersey it's "[traffic] circle").
Some people in the civil-engineering profession are trying to bring
the word "roundabout" to the U.S. to describe a particular kind of
rotary. So far as I know, we don't have any of those in Massachusetts
yet. (John F. Carr would know for sure.) As far as the traffic laws
are concerned, they are "rotary intersections" regardless. (Most of
the design "innovations" that the "roundabout" proponents herald have
been standard design features on rotaries here for quite some time
now.)
I think most of the "roundabout" installations in the U.S. are
actually what BrE would call a "mini-roundabout". However, I don't
think any of the U.S. versions are as minimalistic as the British
variety can be -- most people would just drive straight over a painted
dot in the middle of an intersection.
-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | As the Constitution endures, persons in every
wol...@csail.mit.edu | generation can invoke its principles in their own
Opinions not those | search for greater freedom.
of MIT or CSAIL. | - A. Kennedy, Lawrence v. Texas, 539 U.S. 558 (2003)
Tony Cooper
(Garrett Wollman) wrote:
>In article <mkktg29s6mqg5u49n...@4ax.com>,
>Tony Cooper <tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>I've never heard "motorway" used in the US. We use "Interstate", but
>>sometimes we (but not the government) use "Interstate" to describe an
>>Intrastate. In Florida, "roundabouts" are just beginning to appear,
>>but usually in neighborhood street settings. They've long been in
>>Boston, and thoroughly frighten new drivers to the area.
>
>Actually, we've never had "roundabouts" in Boston. The term locally
>has always been "rotary" (and in New Jersey it's "[traffic] circle").
Yes, now I remember the term. That's the Boston term for "Let's Play
Chicken". Boston drivers can smell tentativeness and caution. They
consider it a weakness, and would take your ears for souvenirs if they
could be bothered to stop.
I've always thought that lions on the hunt are reincarnated Boston
drivers. They have a past life of driving through rotaries to help
them spot the weak member of the herd.
Salvatore Volatile
> On 18 Sep 2006 16:00:30 GMT, "A. Gwilliam"
><bottoml...@southernskies.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Tony Cooper wrote:
>>
>>> For an interstate to be called a "bypass" in the US, it has to be a
>>> controlled access road that branches off from the main interstate and
>>> rejoins it on the other side of the city. It's not just an alternate
>>> route that can be taken.
>>
>>That sounds like quite a good definition for what would be meant by a
>>"bypass" in the UK. I'm surprised by its being used in the US as for
>>some reason the word doesn't sound very "American" to me.
>
> It's a very American word to me, but I should point out that there may
> be differences across the country in what some things are called. I'm
> sure Areff will say that "bypass" is no longer used in the US and even
> "Happy Days" couldn't revive it.
Well, I understand "bypass", Coop, but I wouldn't say it's some
generally-applied term in AmE, though it may be more of a general term
than "beltway" (which is always part of a proper name).
> We use "Interstate", but
> sometimes we (but not the government) use "Interstate" to describe an
> Intrastate.
"Intrastate" is not a term used in AmE; you are confusing the FFs. An
Interstate highway may be an Interstate highway even if you're talking
about some segment of it that's entirely within one state (see, e.g.,
Hawaii).
I have heard some Americans refer to *any* limited-access highway (=
SparkE "freeway"?) as "an interstate", which seems dead wrong to me.
> In Florida, "roundabouts" are just beginning to appear,
> but usually in neighborhood street settings. They've long been in
> Boston, and thoroughly frighten new drivers to the area.
Whoa. Do they *call* them "roundabouts" in Fla.? In Massachusetts they're
called "rotaries"; in NY they are "traffic circles" if anything.
"Roundabout" is a BrE term, made famous by the dinosaur band "Yes" in the
early '70s.
--
Salvatore Volatile
Garrett Wollman
Salvatore Volatile <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>I have heard some Americans refer to *any* limited-access highway (=
>SparkE "freeway"?) as "an interstate", which seems dead wrong to me.
If you live in a place where the only freeways are part of the
Eisenhower Interstate Highway System, this seems perfectly natural.
Tony Cooper
<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On 18 Sep 2006 16:00:30 GMT, "A. Gwilliam"
>><bottoml...@southernskies.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>Tony Cooper wrote:
>>>
>>>> For an interstate to be called a "bypass" in the US, it has to be a
>>>> controlled access road that branches off from the main interstate and
>>>> rejoins it on the other side of the city. It's not just an alternate
>>>> route that can be taken.
>>>
>>>That sounds like quite a good definition for what would be meant by a
>>>"bypass" in the UK. I'm surprised by its being used in the US as for
>>>some reason the word doesn't sound very "American" to me.
>>
>> It's a very American word to me, but I should point out that there may
>> be differences across the country in what some things are called. I'm
>> sure Areff will say that "bypass" is no longer used in the US and even
>> "Happy Days" couldn't revive it.
>
>Well, I understand "bypass", Coop, but I wouldn't say it's some
>generally-applied term in AmE,
I knew it. I may not be the sharpest knife in this drawer, but I do
pick up things.
>though it may be more of a general term
>than "beltway" (which is always part of a proper name).
>
>> We use "Interstate", but
>> sometimes we (but not the government) use "Interstate" to describe an
>> Intrastate.
>
>"Intrastate" is not a term used in AmE;
I knew you'd say that, too.
>you are confusing the FFs. An
>Interstate highway may be an Interstate highway even if you're talking
>about some segment of it that's entirely within one state (see, e.g.,
>Hawaii).
>
>I have heard some Americans refer to *any* limited-access highway (=
>SparkE "freeway"?) as "an interstate", which seems dead wrong to me.
>
>> In Florida, "roundabouts" are just beginning to appear,
>> but usually in neighborhood street settings. They've long been in
>> Boston, and thoroughly frighten new drivers to the area.
>
>Whoa. Do they *call* them "roundabouts" in Fla.?
Yes.
http://orlando.metblogs.com/archives/2006/06/roundabout_russ.phtml
I think it's a blatant rip-off of what you would call a
Hiberno-Whateverism. They are being added to now upscale formerly
slightly seedy and before that nice-but-not-special near-downtown
areas. Like the Delaney Street area in the linked article.
Some of the streets in the older neighborhoods are wide enough to add
them, the design allows a landscaped area in the middle or a fountain,
and the residents just wouldn't want to call them something as common
as a "rotary".
LFS
> Don Aitken writes:
>
>>There seems to be no consistency in naming these things. London has an
>>outer ring (the M25) which called an orbital motorway, a middle one
>>called the North and South Circular Roads and an inner one called the
>>Ring Road. ...
>
>
> Ah! "Orbital motorway". *That*'s the correct translation of Beltway
> (keeping in mind that Beltway is only used in naming certain specific
> ones). "Ring road", in contrast, doesn't imply a motorway.
I think we had orbitals before we had motorways. I have a vague memory
of travelling from London to Southend, in the back of my dad's 1935
Austin Ruby, around the time of the first Sputnik, when people were
talking more than usual about orbits, and noticing a road described as
orbital.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Mark Brader
> I think we had orbitals before we had motorways.
Makes sense, but the subthread was about beltways. Or Beltways.
> I have a vague memory of travelling from London to Southend, in the
> back of my dad's 1935 Austin Ruby, around the time of the first Sputnik,
> when people were talking more than usual about orbits, and noticing a
> road described as orbital.
These days Sputnik is usually called a "negative double" (although a few
people use both terms with distinct meanings). The general shift to
five-card majors in Leftpondia has probably promoted its widespread
adoption.
--
Mark Brader | "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
Toronto | "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have
m...@vex.net | come here. This is, after all, a Bridge Club."
| -- Ray Lee (after Lewis Carroll)
Mike Barnes
>I think we had orbitals before we had motorways. I have a vague memory
>of travelling from London to Southend, in the back of my dad's 1935
>Austin Ruby, around the time of the first Sputnik, when people were
>talking more than usual about orbits, and noticing a road described as
>orbital.
Are you sure you're not thinking of "arterial"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A127_road
sage
> Heard this morning on a television newscast about a traffic accident:
>
> [As you can see on your screen, traffic is tied up on] "both lanes of
> the six-lane expressway."
>
> Yes, I knew what the newscaster meant, but it still caught my
> aue-trained attention.
>
Hmm: In both directions, should do it.
Cheers, Sage
Peter Duncanson
<la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
>I think we had orbitals before we had motorways. I have a vague memory
>of travelling from London to Southend, in the back of my dad's 1935
>Austin Ruby, around the time of the first Sputnik, when people were
>talking more than usual about orbits, and noticing a road described as
>orbital.
Which part of London would you have been travelling from?
Might it have been the North Orbital Road, A405 and A414, that you
saw?
From the Highway Development Survey (1937):
http://www.btinternet.com/~roads/lon_mway/bressey.html
Sir Charles Bressey (engineer) and Sir Edwin Lutyens (architect)
were set to work by the Ministry in 1934 to "study and report on
the need for improved communications by road ... in the area of
Greater London, and to prepare a Highway Development Plan for
that area".
...
Many of the radial routes into and out of the metropolis were
marked as in need of upgrading or bypassing, but the real
visionary ideas in the document were the North and South Orbital
Routes. These would have been 'parkways' up to 200 ft wide, with
restricted access, and flyovers at major junctions. They were to
orbit London at a radius of about 20 miles. The North Orbital
was to link Staines with the Thames ferry at Tilbury (with a
branch to Thurrock and a new tunnel) via Watford, St Albans,
Hatfield, Hoddesdon and Brentwood. Some of the North Orbital
Road got built, as the A405 and A414 (some sections subsequently
being upgraded to the M25 J17-19)
Don Aitken
<la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
Of course, if they were real orbitals, cars could jump from lane to
lane instantly, which would be handy.
Robert Bannister
Once upon a time, we had a rule that it was 60 kph in built-up areas and
unrestricted elsewhere. Then it was changed to 60 in town, 110 in
Western Australia and Northern Territory* and 100 elsewhere. Then
someone had the bright idea of 50 kph in suburban streets. Now, I am
glad to say, we have signs on just about every road except the smallest
suburban streets.
* Not entirely sure about that one: NT did have unrestricted until quite
recently.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
Agreed. As I understand queue theory, the most important thing is to get
all the cars travelling at the same speed. The actual speed does not
have a great deal of effect except over long distances.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
> In alt.usage.english, Robert Bannister wrote:
>
>>Mike Barnes wrote:
>>
>>
>>>In alt.usage.english, the Omrud wrote:
>>
>>>>Surely the speed limit on motorways relates to their being dual
>>>>carriageways rather than a specific rule.
>>>
>>> http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/09.htm#103
>>>
>>
>>I would hate that. I expect all roads to have specific speed signs
>>(with repeaters after every junction or on every access road).
>
>
> That would be an awful lot of signs. And as you can see from the table,
> there are often several speed limits according to the class of vehicle.
It is, but we've got them. The special speed limits that apply to
certain vehicles were only ever a maximum speed anywhere and they used
to be printed on the back of the vehicle. I'm not sure whether that's
still done. Long time since I've read the rules, but I think the speed
limit signs apply to normal traffic and that others (caravans, heavy
trucks, etc.) just have to know the special rules that apply to them.
For example, I think a bus has a max of 100 kph that even applies on
freeways where the limit is 110, but I could be wrong: freeways may have
their own rules.
--
Rob Bannister
Peter Moylan
> It is, but we've got them. The special speed limits that apply to
> certain vehicles were only ever a maximum speed anywhere and they
> used to be printed on the back of the vehicle. I'm not sure whether
> that's still done. Long time since I've read the rules, but I think
> the speed limit signs apply to normal traffic and that others
> (caravans, heavy trucks, etc.) just have to know the special rules
> that apply to them. For example, I think a bus has a max of 100 kph
> that even applies on freeways where the limit is 110, but I could be
> wrong: freeways may have their own rules.
The rule in NSW (and I think in other states) is that buses and trucks
over a certain size have to be fitted with a speed limiting device that
makes it impossible for them to travel at more than 100 km/h. Most of
them do 110 on freeways anyway - and some will tailgate at that speed
until you pull over and let them overtake - so I guess that there aren't
frequent checks that the device hasn't been tampered with.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain
eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer
receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet
address could disappear at any time.
the Omrud
> the Omrud wrote:
>
> > The limits given in the Highway Code are defaults, so it's not
> > confusing. If there's a sign, you obey the sign. If there isn't a
> > sign then you know that the speed limit is as describe above.
> >
> > The vast majority of UK motorways have no special speed limit,
> > although there are variable speed limits on the M25 near Heathrow and
> > the M42 near Solihull which bring the speed down to increase the
> > traffic flow during busy periods. Other than those, and temporary
> > limits for road works, the speed limit in the motorway is 70 mph. A
> > few urban motorways-grade roads have lower limits (e.g. the Mancunian
> > Way A57(M) is marked at 50 mph.
> >
> Once upon a time, we had a rule that it was 60 kph in built-up areas and
> unrestricted elsewhere. Then it was changed to 60 in town, 110 in
> Western Australia and Northern Territory* and 100 elsewhere. Then
> someone had the bright idea of 50 kph in suburban streets. Now, I am
> glad to say, we have signs on just about every road except the smallest
> suburban streets.
The normal UK limit of 30 mph in "built-up areas" is posted as you
enter it, but there are no repeaters for 30 mph. There is some rule
about lampposts - if there are lampposts at less than 100m separation
(or something) then you have to assume that the limit is 30 mph
unless otherwise signed.
There are even fewer signs in France. Once you pass the legal town
name sign, the 50 kph limit is in force until you pass the sign with
the town name crossed out.
--
David
=====
Mike Barnes
>Mike Barnes wrote:
>
>> In alt.usage.english, Robert Bannister wrote:
>>
>>>Mike Barnes wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>In alt.usage.english, the Omrud wrote:
>>>
>>>>>Surely the speed limit on motorways relates to their being dual
>>>>>carriageways rather than a specific rule.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/09.htm#103
>>>>
>>>
>>>I would hate that. I expect all roads to have specific speed signs
>>>(with repeaters after every junction or on every access road).
>> That would be an awful lot of signs. And as you can see from the
>>table,
>> there are often several speed limits according to the class of vehicle.
>
>It is, but we've got them. The special speed limits that apply to
>certain vehicles were only ever a maximum speed anywhere and they used
>to be printed on the back of the vehicle. I'm not sure whether that's
>still done.
Some European countries used to have speed limit signs on the back of
heavy vehicles. I think that practice has died out, possibly because of
increased international trade: different rules applied in different
counties, and it wasn't unusual to see a truck with two or more
different speed limit signs on the back, e.g. (80) (90). Truck speeds
are now mechanically limited to 90 km/h.
Percival P. Cassidy
> The normal UK limit of 30 mph in "built-up areas" is posted as you
> enter it, but there are no repeaters for 30 mph. There is some rule
> about lampposts - if there are lampposts at less than 100m separation
> (or something) then you have to assume that the limit is 30 mph
> unless otherwise signed.
>
> There are even fewer signs in France. Once you pass the legal town
> name sign, the 50 kph limit is in force until you pass the sign with
> the town name crossed out.
I stumbled into this thread by accident, but your post has reminded me
of one of the things I find so infuriating about driving in the USA --
at least in the parts of it where I have done much driving:
Not only are the speed limits not standardized (one municipality's speed
limit for "built-up areas" may be 30mph, another's 25mph), but there are
seldom repeaters for any of the speed limits (except on freeways, which
probably are not under the control of the local municipality). The
result is that if as you drive into town you happen to miss the single
sign telling you that the speed limit is 25mph and you assume that it is
30mph -- or even (because your intuitive criterion of what constitutes a
"built-up area" differs from the municipality's) that you are still in
"open country" with a 55mph speed limit, you can find yourself with a
speeding ticket and no acceptable defence/defense.
Conversely, if you miss the 55mph sign as you leave town on what is
still only a two-lane road and assume that the speed limit is still
30mph, you can get a long line of infuriated drivers behind you and
perhaps unwittingly contribute to an accident as some of them try
overtaking.
(In general I consider US road signage to be far inferior to that in the
area of the UK I know best -- London area -- with its floodlit signs and
pedestrian crossings. Road markings here don't get repainted very often
either. And don't get me going on the subject of traffic lights/signals
suspended over the intersection where they cannot be seen because of the
large truck between me and the signal.)
Perce
Tony Cooper
<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>Whoa. Do they *call* them "roundabouts" in Fla.? In Massachusetts they're
>called "rotaries"; in NY they are "traffic circles" if anything.
>"Roundabout" is a BrE term, made famous by the dinosaur band "Yes" in the
>early '70s.
In today's Orlando Sentinel: "Windermere officials have dressed up
their downtown in recent years with handsome brick roundabouts ,
sidewalk benches, and ornate street lights."
Tony Cooper
<nob...@notmyISP.net> wrote:
>I stumbled into this thread by accident, but your post has reminded me
>of one of the things I find so infuriating about driving in the USA --
>at least in the parts of it where I have done much driving:
>
>Not only are the speed limits not standardized (one municipality's speed
>limit for "built-up areas" may be 30mph, another's 25mph), but there are
>seldom repeaters for any of the speed limits (except on freeways, which
>probably are not under the control of the local municipality). The
>result is that if as you drive into town you happen to miss the single
>sign telling you that the speed limit is 25mph and you assume that it is
>30mph -- or even (because your intuitive criterion of what constitutes a
>"built-up area" differs from the municipality's) that you are still in
>"open country" with a 55mph speed limit, you can find yourself with a
>speeding ticket and no acceptable defence/defense.
You will find that in towns where the city's budget is largely
supported by the revenue from traffic fines. It does not represent
lack of recognition of the need for signs. It represents the need of
the city for income from visitors.
There is a city in Florida where the speed limit on the highway
leading to the city is 55 mph, and the speed limit in the city limits
is 30 mph. There is a 55 mph sign about 200 yards from the city
limit, a sign about 100 yards from the city limit warning that the
speed limit changes ahead, and a sign at the city limit saying the
allowed speed is 30 mph. The police "station" (actually a small
wooden building about the size of a telephone box) is located about
100 yards inside the city limits and has a drive-through window for
fine payers.
Drifting a bit...It's somewhat customary in the US for a driver to
blink his headlights at on-coming traffic to indicate that there is a
speed trap ahead for the on-coming driver. Some local governments
make this a specific traffic offense (interference) and station an
officer at a point to view the blinker's cars. They can write more
tickets for this than they can for speeders caught.
Maria
> ..... And don't get me going on the subject of
> traffic lights/signals suspended over the intersection where they
> cannot be seen because of the large truck between me and the signal.)
If there's a large truck between you and the signal, you can probably
wait for the truck to go before you do. Just a suggestion.
--
Maria
Resident of southeast Michigan, near Detroit; native of east Tennessee.
There's only one 'n' in my email address, and it's not in my first name.
Graeme Thomas
<usenet...@gmail.com> writes
>There is some rule
>about lampposts - if there are lampposts at less than 100m separation
>(or something) then you have to assume that the limit is 30 mph
>unless otherwise signed.
I have just checked my copy (1993, for some reason) of The Highway Code,
and it is rather unhelpful. It just states that the speed limit is
30mph "on all roads with street lighting unless signs show otherwise".
But I'm sure that when I learned the highway code the bit about street
lights not only specified a minimum distance between lampposts, but it
also specified the date of installation. The 30mph limit only applied
if the lights had been put in since about 1935.
A few years ago the council decided to install lights on a nearby road.
They had to get a special regulation passed to enable the existing
national speed limit to continue, and they had to have a public
consultation in case anyone objected. It seemed a lot of fuss.
--
Graeme Thomas
Tony Cooper
<gra...@graemet.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>I have just checked my copy (1993, for some reason) of The Highway Code,
>and it is rather unhelpful. It just states that the speed limit is
>30mph "on all roads with street lighting unless signs show otherwise".
>
>But I'm sure that when I learned the highway code the bit about street
>lights not only specified a minimum distance between lampposts, but it
>also specified the date of installation. The 30mph limit only applied
>if the lights had been put in since about 1935.
>
In the US, back in the days before radar guns, police clocked vehicles
by timing the vehicle between telephone poles or street lights. The
distance was known, the amount of time to traverse the distance was
measured, so the speed could be determined.
Robert Bannister
> The normal UK limit of 30 mph in "built-up areas" is posted as you
> enter it, but there are no repeaters for 30 mph. There is some rule
> about lampposts - if there are lampposts at less than 100m separation
> (or something) then you have to assume that the limit is 30 mph
> unless otherwise signed.
I remember that lamppost rule. I don't think anybody really knew the
exact distance. Now you can gone quasi-metric, how have you translated
the 30 mph? I know the last car I had that was marked in both had a red
line on 50 kph, but Oz chose to make it 60, which is nearer to 40 mph.
I've just done the maths: 30 mph is actually slower than 50 kph. I was
quite surprised as 50 seems awfully slow, and yet I passed my driving
tests in England and 30 seemed OK then. Of course, in Australia, we had
very little traffic back in the days when we went metric.
>
> There are even fewer signs in France. Once you pass the legal town
> name sign, the 50 kph limit is in force until you pass the sign with
> the town name crossed out.
>
At least, they've got a lot more signs these days showing when you have
"priorité", which is better than the give way to the off-side rule. Over
here, in the absence of any "give way" sign, the rule is to give way to
the right, ie the driver's side, which makes a lot more sense, since you
mainly concentrate on that side to look for overtaking cars. I remember
a German friend trying to kill me several times by insisting he had
"Vorfahrt" most of the time.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
> either. And don't get me going on the subject of traffic lights/signals
> suspended over the intersection where they cannot be seen because of the
> large truck between me and the signal.
One of the scariest things over here in Oz, and I imagine this must
happen in the USA too, is when the sun is strong and low and makes it
impossible to see which traffic light is lit. They have put brighter
globes/bulbs in and they have increased the size of the shade over the
top, but there are still times in the early morning or late afternoon
when you simply cannot tell whether a light is red, green or out of order.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
> Robert Bannister wrote:
>
>> It is, but we've got them. The special speed limits that apply to
>> certain vehicles were only ever a maximum speed anywhere and they
>> used to be printed on the back of the vehicle. I'm not sure whether
>> that's still done. Long time since I've read the rules, but I think
>> the speed limit signs apply to normal traffic and that others
>> (caravans, heavy trucks, etc.) just have to know the special rules
>> that apply to them. For example, I think a bus has a max of 100 kph
>> that even applies on freeways where the limit is 110, but I could be
>> wrong: freeways may have their own rules.
>
>
> The rule in NSW (and I think in other states) is that buses and trucks
> over a certain size have to be fitted with a speed limiting device that
> makes it impossible for them to travel at more than 100 km/h. Most of
> them do 110 on freeways anyway - and some will tailgate at that speed
> until you pull over and let them overtake - so I guess that there aren't
> frequent checks that the device hasn't been tampered with.
>
I have an idea that that works with diesel engines, but not so well with
petrol. Motorway driving in England is really scary with road trains
doing at least 75 mph - I had a hired Renault that could only make 70 in
overdrive on the flat.
--
Rob Bannister
Maria
>
> One of the scariest things over here in Oz, and I imagine this must
> happen in the USA too, is when the sun is strong and low and makes it
> impossible to see which traffic light is lit. They have put brighter
> globes/bulbs in and they have increased the size of the shade over the
> top, but there are still times in the early morning or late afternoon
> when you simply cannot tell whether a light is red, green or out of
> order.
Only once did I live west of a day job. That was enough to convince me
that driving into the sun at either end of the day was not a good idea.
--
Maria
the Omrud
> the Omrud wrote:
>
>
> > The normal UK limit of 30 mph in "built-up areas" is posted as you
> > enter it, but there are no repeaters for 30 mph. There is some rule
> > about lampposts - if there are lampposts at less than 100m separation
> > (or something) then you have to assume that the limit is 30 mph
> > unless otherwise signed.
>
> I remember that lamppost rule. I don't think anybody really knew the
> exact distance. Now you can gone quasi-metric, how have you translated
> the 30 mph? I know the last car I had that was marked in both had a red
> line on 50 kph, but Oz chose to make it 60, which is nearer to 40 mph.
No. Many matters related to roads are not metricated. Miles and
yards are still with us. Although petrol has been sold in litres for
many years.
--
David
=====
Frances Kemmish
Just around the corner from our house is a traffic light where the green
light is so bright that at night it is impossible to see the rest of
your surroundings. I could understand putting in a nice bright red
light, to make sure people stop, but why put in a green light that makes
it hard for traffic to move at all?
Fran
Frances Kemmish
> There seems to be no consistency in naming these things. London has an
> outer ring (the M25) which called an orbital motorway, a middle one
> called the North and South Circular Roads and an inner one called the
> Ring Road. There was going to be another (between the second and
> third) of which only fragments were ever built. That was called the
> Motorway Box, presumably because it was approximately rectangular.
>
I know there was something called "Ringway II" which was in the planning
stages in the early 1970s. I worked with someone at that time whose
house value was badly affected by being in the path of the proposed
road. They sold to the local authority under some scheme to help people
with "blighted property", but then the road plan was cancelled. I
suppose someone in the local authority made a nice profit on reselling
formerly-blighted houses.
> Birmingham also has three; the outer one doesn't seem to have a name,
> the middle one is called Middleway, and the inner one is called
> Queensway.
>
I remember the "Outer Circle" in Birmingham. Well, what I really
remember is the number 11 bus route which went all the way around the
city. I had a friend who worked as a conductor on the route, when he was
a student. We spent an interesting Sunday afternoon once, travelling the
whole circuit.
I see someone has published a book about it:
http://www.tempus-publishing.com/bookdetails.php?isbn=0752430815
Fran
John Holmes
That would be a real quantum leap in traffic management.
--
Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au