Sarcastic vs. ironic vs. sardonic
'
are not the same. Can you explain how they differ? Note that I wish
to go beyond the dictionary definitions here, to how the words are
actually used.
I will see what kind of responses I get and then post my own answer.
Please let me know of any other place (e.g. web page, newsgroup) that
would be interested in discussing this question. I did a quick search
on Google and alt.usage.english was the best I could find.
richard.chambers7
"'" <ack9...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:45b780c3.02120...@posting.google.com...
> Sarcastic, ironic, and sardonic are often listed as synonyms, but they
> are not the same. Can you explain how they differ? Note that I wish
> to go beyond the dictionary definitions here, to how the words are
> actually used.
>
Sarcasm is often an aggressive form of humour. Its underlying aim is
usually to make somebody else look foolish or unreasonable.
Imagine that your teenage daughter has just got herself dressed for a date,
and has come downstairs in a miniskirt and see-through blouse. "My goodness!
You have dressed elegantly tonight!"
Irony is not aggressive. In fact, the speaker and his listeners are usually
all in the same boat together, and the effect of the humour is often to form
a team bond between them. Irony is a commentary on the vicissitudes of
life. Something that was once good has turned bad. Or, out of a total
disaster, you are able to see a tiny bit of hidden good.
After the local river has burst its banks and all the houses in your street
have been flooded, you might say to your neighbour that the gardens had
needed a spot of rain.
The song, popular in WW2 London, " . . . . the nightingale sang in
Berkeley Square". Yes, indeed it did, after the city had suffered yet
another night of German bombing. An example of irony in a song. The irony
was intended to lift wartime morale.
You are lucky to be on one of the lifeboats from the Titanic. "Could you
direct me to the Ball Room on this vessel, please?"
While irony is the speciality of the British, sardonic wit is the speciality
of the US Americans. I can recognise sardonic wit when I hear it, and I can
appreciate its humour, but I cannot categorise it in the way that I have
above for sarcasm and irony. Also, I cannot provide an example. Perhaps an
American could help me out.
Richard Chambers Leeds UK.
John Lawler
>"'" <ack9...@yahoo.com> writes:
I think you've captured irony and sarcasm admirably. The etymology of
'sarcasm' is instructive. From the OED:
[late Latin sarcasm-us, a. late Gr. sarkasmoi, f. sarkazein 'to tear flesh,
gnash the teeth, speak bitterly', f. sark-, sarc 'flesh' ]
The metaphor appears to have been established by Greek times. No "sticks
and stones can break my bones, but words can never hurt me" in Greek
culture, apparently. The same root 'sarc' is seen in a literal sense in
'sarcophagus', literally 'flesh-eater', a term for an elaborate coffin.
Sardonic humor has a *really* gruesome etymology:
[L. sardoni-us, from Latin adj. for 'Sardinian', the descriptive
epithet of bitter or scornful laughter; from the notion that the word
had primary reference to the effects of eating a `Sardinian plant' (L.
herba Sardonia or Sardoa), which was said to produce facial
convulsions resembling horrible laughter, usually followed by death. ]
The OED gives an interesting recent quotation as an illustration:
(1964) Listener 29 Oct. 667/2
"Because familiarity with the role has made Sean Connery feel able to
play Bond more relaxedly, an agreeable sardonicism has been added to
the earlier deliberately overdone Superman masculinity."
It seems not to be fatal anymore, and can even be agreeable. Not really
American, though -- more Scottish. The movies are an American franchise,
however.
-John Lawler http://www.umich.edu/~jlawler U Michigan Linguistics Dept
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Because in our brief lives, we catch so little of the vastness of
history, we tend too much to think of language as being solid as a
dictionary, with granite-like permanence, rather than as the rampant
restless sea of metaphor that it is." -- Julian Jaynes
Arcadian Rises
>Sarcasm is often an aggressive form of humour.
While "ironic" and "sardonic" may pass as humor, sometimes even successfully, I
don't see anything funny in sarcasm.
>Its underlying aim is
>usually to make somebody else look foolish or unreasonable.
...by means of humiliating that person. Again, I don't see anything funny in
sarcasm.
Harvey V
-snip-
> While irony is the speciality of the British, sardonic wit is the
> speciality of the US Americans. I can recognise sardonic wit when
> I hear it, and I can appreciate its humour, but I cannot
> categorise it in the way that I have above for sarcasm and irony.
> Also, I cannot provide an example. Perhaps an American could help
> me out.
Surely one of the reasons "sardonic" is harder to categorise in the way
that you have done for "irony" and "sarcasm" is because -- unlike those
forms -- it doesn't exist as an independent concept.
Collins's definition is "characterised by irony, mockery, or derision"
-- in other words, it's a sub-category of irony/sarcasm, not a separate
form in itself.
--
Cheers,
Harvey
For e-mail, harvey becomes whhvs.
William
news:20021203130028...@mb-fl.aol.com...
> >From: "richard.chambers7"
>
> >Sarcasm is often an aggressive form of humour.
>
> While "ironic" and "sardonic" may pass as humor, sometimes
> even successfully, I don't see anything funny in sarcasm.
It's usually funnier in the third person, when the second
person deserves to be called on something. Sometimes its
even funny in the second person if it makes you realize you
are/were doing something dumb.
Example:
Helping my girlfriend paint our bedroom I was getting a bit
cranky because of a series of minor frustrations. Cranky? No,
overreacting is more like it. So, rather than walk carefully
like a normal human, I STOMPED past a dresser daring anything
on or about it to get in my way. Well, the wallpaper scraper
handle was poking out, I hit it, the scraper spun about and
fell off the dresser, slashing my leg on the way down (6 years
later I still have the scar). A minute or two later my
girlfriend pokes her head into the bathroom, where I'm lying
on my back, leg elevated staunching the flow of red with a
large gauze pad, and says, "Calmer now, I see."
I had to admit, sheepishly, that that was funny. -Wm
Arcadian Rises
[on sarcasm]
>It's usually funnier in the third person, when the second
>person deserves to be called on something. Sometimes its
>even funny in the second person if it makes you realize you
>are/were doing something dumb.
>
I call that 'sardonic", not sarcastic.
>
>Example:
>Helping my girlfriend paint our bedroom I was getting a bit
>cranky because of a series of minor frustrations. Cranky? No,
>overreacting is more like it. So, rather than walk carefully
>like a normal human, I STOMPED past a dresser daring anything
>on or about it to get in my way. Well, the wallpaper scraper
>handle was poking out, I hit it, the scraper spun about and
>fell off the dresser, slashing my leg on the way down (6 years
>later I still have the scar). A minute or two later my
>girlfriend pokes her head into the bathroom, where I'm lying
>on my back, leg elevated staunching the flow of red with a
>large gauze pad, and says, "Calmer now, I see."
>
>I had to admit, sheepishly, that that was funny. -Wm
>
That _was_ funny.
Can you compare it to 'making fun' of the underweight people in a concentration
camp?
Matti Lamprhey
> Arcadian Rises <arcadi...@aol.com> writes
>
> >That _was_ funny.
> >Can you compare it to 'making fun' of the underweight people in a
> >concentration camp?
>
> subject of humour.
Or even to be the subject of humour.
> I recall a cartoon, it may have been Punch but not
> sure, which showed concave chested, emaciated inmates of a concentration
> camp. One inmate is saying to the other: "It beats being fat on my
> wife's cooking, believe me."
I know _Punch_ has been crap for a generation, but they still wouldn't have
published that.
Matti
Arcadian Rises
<ja...@marage.demon.co.uk> writes:
><arcadi...@aol.com> writes
>
>>That _was_ funny.
>>
>>Can you compare it to 'making fun' of the underweight people in a
>concentration
>>camp?
>
>I can't think of a single subject that is too mundane not to be the
>subject of humour. I recall a cartoon, it may have been Punch but not
>sure, which showed concave chested, emaciated inmates of a concentration
>camp. One inmate is saying to the other: "It beats being fat on my
>wife's cooking, believe me."
That's funny, IMO, because the inmate made fun of his wife cooking. Some may
argue that trivialization of a concentration camp may spoil the fun; but I
believe the resilience of the inmate, who could exercise his sense of humor
under adverse circumstances, makes up somehow for the morbid circumstances, and
allow us to laugh.
>
>Humour, as always, works best when it's inappropriate. We laugh, not
>only the gag, but at the mechanics that caused our sudden withdrawal of
>sympathy in a situation where sympathy is clearly deserved.
In your example the sympathy is transferred to someone who had been subjected
to bad cooking and the humor comes from exaggerating the 'taste' of bad cooking
compared to concentration camp 'cuisine'.
>
>Having said that, I never found the leather-coated Gestapo thugs in the
>sitcom series "'Allo, 'Allo" funny. They may have been due to the show's
>plodding scripts and naff title.
I believe it depends a great deal on _who_ is poking fun. In your previous
example, it helps (humorwise) that the inmate was the 'perpetrator'. If the
remark were made by a leather-coated Gestapo thug, there would be no humor at
all (IMO) because consciously, and even subconsciously, we can allow ourselves
to laugh at a tragic situation: the aggressor making fun of his victim. It's
our survival instincts who don't allow ourselves to laugh. First we survive,
then we can laugh.
Don Aitken
wrote:
>>From: "richard.chambers7"
>
>>Sarcasm is often an aggressive form of humour.
>
>While "ironic" and "sardonic" may pass as humor, sometimes even successfully, I
>don't see anything funny in sarcasm.
>
The idea that sarcasm is a form of humor seems to be a fairly modern
one. In the 19th century it was regarded as one of the essential
components of oratory, and never carried the disapproving overtones it
usually does today. See Erskine May's discussion of parliamentary
oratory at http://home.freeuk.net/don-aitken/emay2v112.html, first
published in 1861.
--
Don Aitken
GrapeApe
>The idea that sarcasm is a form of humor seems to be a fairly modern
>one. In the 19th century it was regarded as one of the essential
>components of oratory, and never carried the disapproving overtones it
>usually does today.
What were peoples opinions of Voltaire?
Steve Hayes
We have a saying: sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.
Related (not etymologically) to Schadenfreude.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Alan Jones
"Don Aitken" <don-a...@freeuk.com> wrote in message
news:q6lquu49i8hge1gv5...@4ax.com...
Thanks for the reference, from which I quote: " ...potent in ridicule,
sarcasm, and invective,-rich in imagination and humour ..... The deepest
wounds which sarcasm and invective could inflict, have been unsparingly
dealt to political opponents. Combatants 'have sharpened their tongues like
a serpent; adder's poison is under their lips.' "
So the essence of sarcasm is the intention to wound; its means is irony, and
this distinguishes it from invective, which is meant to hurt, but directly
rather than ironically. Ridicule is a more trivial thing than sarcasm - a
pin-prick rather than a thrust with the stiletto, and aimed at deflating the
pompous and silly rather than mortally wounding the wicked or wrong-headed.
It's a pity that the word "sarcasm", perhaps particularly in the US, has
lost its original force; it comes from the Greek "sarkazein" (to rip off
flesh like a dog, says my Liddell & Scott lexicon) and its humour, if any,
is bitterly dark.
Alan Jones
Martin Ambuhl
> Sarcastic, ironic, and sardonic are often listed as synonyms, but they
> are not the same. Can you explain how they differ? Note that I wish
> to go beyond the dictionary definitions here, to how the words are
> actually used.
Unless you have a very poor dictionary, there is no need to go beyond
"dictionary definitions." Indeed, we need not go even as far as that.
Let's just look at where these words come from:
sarcastic (< sarcasm): Gk. sarkasmos < sarkazein, to tear flesh
sardonic < substituting Sardonios (Sardinian) for sardanios, for bitter and
scornful laughter, from the notion that eating a Sardinian plant led to
facial convulsions resembling those arising in such laughter. [This
dates to Homer]
ironic (<irony) < Gk. eironeia, simulated ignorance (or dissemblance)
Lists of "synonms" should always be taken as suggestive of related words,
not as setting forth words that can be blindly substituted.
Matti Lamprhey
> "Don Aitken" <don-a...@freeuk.com> wrote...
> > >
> > The idea that sarcasm is a form of humor seems to be a fairly modern
> > one. In the 19th century it was regarded as one of the essential
> > components of oratory, and never carried the disapproving overtones it
> > usually does today. See Erskine May's discussion of parliamentary
> > oratory at http://home.freeuk.net/don-aitken/emay2v112.html, first
> > published in 1861.
>
> Thanks for the reference, from which I quote: " ...potent in ridicule,
> sarcasm, and invective,-rich in imagination and humour ..... The deepest
> wounds which sarcasm and invective could inflict, have been unsparingly
> dealt to political opponents. Combatants 'have sharpened their tongues
> like a serpent; adder's poison is under their lips.' "
>
> So the essence of sarcasm is the intention to wound; its means is irony,
> and this distinguishes it from invective, which is meant to hurt, but
> directly rather than ironically. Ridicule is a more trivial thing than
> sarcasm - a pin-prick rather than a thrust with the stiletto, and aimed at
> deflating the pompous and silly rather than mortally wounding the wicked
> or wrong-headed.
> It's a pity that the word "sarcasm", perhaps particularly in the US, has
> lost its original force; it comes from the Greek "sarkazein" (to rip off
> flesh like a dog, says my Liddell & Scott lexicon) and its humour, if any,
> is bitterly dark.
Good stuff. I suggest adding something based on this post to the "FAQ".
Matti
Slow
speciality
> of the US Americans. I can recognise sardonic wit when I hear it, and I can
> appreciate its humour, but I cannot categorise it in the way that I have
> above for sarcasm and irony. Also, I cannot provide an example. Perhaps an
> American could help me out.
>
> Richard Chambers Leeds UK.
Here's quote from:
http://www.artandculture.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/ACLive.woa/wa/keyword?id=121
"Beyond sarcasm lies the sardonic, last refuge of the recalcitrant
cynic, where the most intellectual of ironies may be freely and
thoroughly enjoyed. The associated pleasures include indulgence in
mockery and derision, skepticism, and the exercise of wit. Whereas the
cheap shot is merely sarcastic, the sardonic delivers the measured and
cutting blow with tried and tempered steel."
Shakib Otaqui
James Follett <ja...@marage.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >[...]
> >Can you compare it to 'making fun' of the underweight people in a concentration
> >camp?
>
> I can't think of a single subject that is too mundane not to be the
> subject of humour. I recall a cartoon, it may have been Punch but not
> sure, which showed concave chested, emaciated inmates of a concentration
> camp. One inmate is saying to the other: "It beats being fat on my
> wife's cooking, believe me."
> [...]
This would probably get the editor fired in these increasingly
squeamish times:
Take Tim McCarthy, the editor of The Courier, in Littleton,
New Hampshire, who wanted to include a cartoon by Mike
Marland, depicting two towers, labeled, "Social" and
"Security" and a small plane piloted by Bush, labeled "Bush
Budget." The cartoonist had to apologize. McCarthy lost his
job.
Extracted from an article on censorship at
<http://www.swans.com/library/art8/ga147.html>
--
Shakib Otaqui
arcadi...@aol.com (Arcadian Rises) wrote:
> [...]
> I believe it depends a great deal on _who_ is poking fun. In your previous
> example, it helps (humorwise) that the inmate was the 'perpetrator'. If the
> remark were made by a leather-coated Gestapo thug, there would be no humor at
> all (IMO) because consciously, and even subconsciously, we can allow ourselves
> to laugh at a tragic situation: the aggressor making fun of his victim. It's
> our survival instincts who don't allow ourselves to laugh. First we survive,
> then we can laugh.
That's very true. Take the following two jokes which
illustrate the meaning of that wonderful word "chutzpa".
Moshe and David are talking about Israel's economic troubles.
Moshe suggests that Israel should declare war on America,
lose and then take advantage of American reconstruction aid
as Germany and Japan did after the second world war. "But
Moshe," retorts David, "what happens if we win?"
I don't think there's any possible objection to this one.
The Israeli government puts a bounty on the heads of
Palestinian guerillas, so Moshe and David go Arab-hunting in
the Judaean wilderness. They spend a long day without
success and eventually set up camp and go to sleep. In the
morning, David wakes up to find that they're surrounded by
Arabs pointing guns. "Wake up, Moshe," he says. "We're
rich!"
This one is likely to fall foul of the PC merchants, but most
fellow Arabs join me in rueful laughter when I tell it. But
it's very close to the line: I doubt if we would be as
receptive if it's told by an Israeli or an American (just as
The Producers could not possibly have been made by a non-Jewish
writer/director and stars).
--
richard.chambers7
"Shakib Otaqui" <c6crx...@sneakemail.com> wrote in message
news:20021204.1426.4395$c6crx...@sneakemail.com...
>
> The Israeli government puts a bounty on the heads of
> Palestinian guerillas, so Moshe and David go Arab-hunting in
> the Judaean wilderness. They spend a long day without
> success and eventually set up camp and go to sleep. In the
> morning, David wakes up to find that they're surrounded by
> Arabs pointing guns. "Wake up, Moshe," he says. "We're
> rich!"
>
> This one is likely to fall foul of the PC merchants, but most
> fellow Arabs join me in rueful laughter when I tell it. But
> it's very close to the line: I doubt if we would be as
> receptive if it's told by an Israeli or an American (just as
> The Producers could not possibly have been made by a non-Jewish
> writer/director and stars).
>
When I first came to Leeds in 1972, I saw some bread in a Jewish Baker's. It
looked attractive, but in my ignorance I thought that the unleavened Jewish
bread might have some special religious significance. Not wishing to offend
religious sensibilities, I decided to play it careful. Too careful. I went
into the shop and asked the assistant whether it would be alright for a
Gentile to buy some of her bread. She leaned slowly forward on the counter:-
"My friend," she said, "I'm Jewish. "I'll sell you my grandmother if
the price is right."
The sort of joke that only a Jewish person can tell.
Richard Chambers Leeds UK.
Arcadian Rises
<richard....@ntlworld.com> writes:
>When I first came to Leeds in 1972, I saw some bread in a Jewish Baker's. It
>looked attractive, but in my ignorance I thought that the unleavened Jewish
>bread might have some special religious significance. Not wishing to offend
>religious sensibilities, I decided to play it careful. Too careful. I went
>into the shop and asked the assistant whether it would be alright for a
>Gentile to buy some of her bread. She leaned slowly forward on the counter:-
>"My friend," she said, "I'm Jewish. "I'll sell you my grandmother if
>the price is right."
>
>The sort of joke that only a Jewish person can tell.
Self-mockery is what makes the difference between humor and sarcasm.
In other words, if I say it, is classy; if you say it, is tacky. :)))))
Joe Fineman
_MEU_ has a nice little table s.v. humor, contrasting that word, the
three you mention, and also wit, satire, and cynicism. Here I extract
the three, with his notion of the
Motive or aim (MoA)
Province (P)
Method or means (MoM)
Audience (A)
Sarcasm:
MoA Inflicting pain
P Faults & foibles
MoM Inversion
A Victim & bystander
Irony:
MoA Exclusiveness
P Statement of facts
MoM Mystification
A An inner circle
The sardonic:
MoA Self-relief
P Adversity
MoM Pessimism
A Self
--
--- Joe Fineman j...@TheWorld.com
||: Journalists and lexicographers have the professional duty of :||
||: recording a great deal of foolishness. :||
William
>
> Can you compare it to 'making fun' of the underweight people
> in a concentration camp?
Not sure how I would.
In a slightly different vein, though, sometimes the
manifestly unfunny does find its way into humor, often
as an absurd comparison. For example, the joke that
the designation of the military ration pack MRE (Meal,
Ready to Eat) actually stands for Meal, Rejected by
by Ethiopians doesn't make light of the problem of
famine in Ethiopia, but, rather, suggests that the
ration is so bad even the starving won't have it.
-Wm
Tony Cooper
I suppose I'm very callous, but I fail to see anything at all
objectionable about either joke. Close to the line? Hardly.
--
Provider of Jots, Tittles and the occasional "Oy!"
Tony Cooper aka tony_cooper213 at yahoo.com
Tony Cooper
<ja...@marage.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>X-No-Archive: yes
>In article <20021204.1426.4395$c6crx...@sneakemail.com>, Shakib Otaqui
><c6crx...@sneakemail.com> writes
>
>> That's very true. Take the following two jokes which
>> illustrate the meaning of that wonderful word "chutzpa".
>>
>> Moshe and David are talking about Israel's economic troubles.
>> Moshe suggests that Israel should declare war on America,
>> lose and then take advantage of American reconstruction aid
>> as Germany and Japan did after the second world war. "But
>> Moshe," retorts David, "what happens if we win?"
>
>This joke was actually made into a movie "The Mouse that Roared". Like
>many English movies, best forgotten.
You jest. Any movie with Margaret Rutherford in it is not
forgettable.
Mike Oliver
>> Moshe suggests that Israel should declare war on America,
>> lose and then take advantage of American reconstruction aid
>> as Germany and Japan did after the second world war. "But
>> Moshe," retorts David, "what happens if we win?"
>
> many English movies, best forgotten.
So many seem, unfortunately, to have forgotten that _The_Mouse_That_Roared_
was actually a *novel*. A marvellously entertaining one, as was
its sequel, _The_Mouse_on_the_Moon_.
I have little to say about the movie version; it seems that I
might have caught bits and pieces of it on TV.
Robert Lieblich
>
> On Wed, 4 Dec 2002 17:28:43 +0000, James Follett
> <ja...@marage.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >X-No-Archive: yes
> >In article <20021204.1426.4395$c6crx...@sneakemail.com>, Shakib Otaqui
> ><c6crx...@sneakemail.com> writes
> >
> >> That's very true. Take the following two jokes which
> >> illustrate the meaning of that wonderful word "chutzpa".
> >>
> >> Moshe and David are talking about Israel's economic troubles.
> >> Moshe suggests that Israel should declare war on America,
> >> lose and then take advantage of American reconstruction aid
> >> as Germany and Japan did after the second world war. "But
> >> Moshe," retorts David, "what happens if we win?"
> >
> >This joke was actually made into a movie "The Mouse that Roared". Like
> >many English movies, best forgotten.
>
> You jest. Any movie with Margaret Rutherford in it is not
> forgettable.
Wanna bet on that, Tony? You seem to have forgotten that La
Rutherford appears in the sequel, *The Mouse on the Moon*, taking
the role of Grand Duchess Gloriana that Peter Sellers played in
*Roared* -- along with two others. Good training for *Dr.
Strangelove*.
Most Americans seem to have found the *Mouse* movies quite
charming. I know I did.
Sorry, Jimbo.
--
Bob Lieblich
Maybe it was that football-shaped bomb
Tony Cooper
True. She was not in the TMTR. I do like Rutherford, though. I
would love to see "Murder at the Gallop" again just to see old Maggie
R.
Shakib Otaqui
James Follett <ja...@marage.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> [...]
> > But
> > it's very close to the line: I doubt if we would be as
> > receptive if it's told by an Israeli or an American (just as
> > The Producers could not possibly have been made by a non-Jewish
> > writer/director and stars).
>
> One didn't have to pore over credits to decide whether or not it was a
> funny film. As I've pointed out previously, what makes humour is
> inappropriateness -- a point which extends from the inappropriateness of
> laughing at someone skidding on a banana skin to the inappropriateness
> of goose-stepping nazis in a musical.
We're as one on this point. In practice, though, The Producers
with different parentage would have led to an almighty row in
the unlikely event that the money to make it was found.
Similarly, blind friends tell very funny "blindie" jokes that
few if any comedians would dare to repeat in public.
--
Shakib Otaqui
Tony Cooper <tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >[...]
> > The Israeli government puts a bounty on the heads of
> > Palestinian guerillas, so Moshe and David go Arab-hunting in
> > the Judaean wilderness. They spend a long day without
> > success and eventually set up camp and go to sleep. In the
> > morning, David wakes up to find that they're surrounded by
> > Arabs pointing guns. "Wake up, Moshe," he says. "We're
> > rich!"
> >
> > This one is likely to fall foul of the PC merchants, but most
> > fellow Arabs join me in rueful laughter when I tell it. But
> > it's very close to the line: I doubt if we would be as
> > receptive if it's told by an Israeli or an American (just as
> > The Producers could not possibly have been made by a non-Jewish
> > writer/director and stars).
>
> I suppose I'm very callous, but I fail to see anything at all
> objectionable about either joke. Close to the line? Hardly.
Its premise is the same as the one about Italian tanks having
one forward gear and four reverse or, more generally, any joke
about a particular group's deficiencies - in this case, the
inability or unwillingness to fight. With such jokes, who
tells them and why are significant.
--
M. J. Powell
<tony_co...@yahoo.com> writes
>On Wed, 4 Dec 2002 17:28:43 +0000, James Follett
><ja...@marage.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>X-No-Archive: yes
>>In article <20021204.1426.4395$c6crx...@sneakemail.com>, Shakib Otaqui
>><c6crx...@sneakemail.com> writes
>>
>>> That's very true. Take the following two jokes which
>>> illustrate the meaning of that wonderful word "chutzpa".
>>>
>>> Moshe and David are talking about Israel's economic troubles.
>>> Moshe suggests that Israel should declare war on America,
>>> lose and then take advantage of American reconstruction aid
>>> as Germany and Japan did after the second world war. "But
>>> Moshe," retorts David, "what happens if we win?"
>>
>>This joke was actually made into a movie "The Mouse that Roared". Like
>>many English movies, best forgotten.
>
>You jest. Any movie with Margaret Rutherford in it is not
>forgettable.
The brilliant Miss Marple.
Mike
--
M.J.Powell
R H Draney
news:%BqH9.2637$n31.143079@newsfep2-gui:
> When I first came to Leeds in 1972, I saw some bread in a Jewish
> Baker's. It looked attractive, but in my ignorance I thought that
> the unleavened Jewish bread might have some special religious
> significance. Not wishing to offend religious sensibilities, I
> decided to play it careful. Too careful. I went into the shop and
> asked the assistant whether it would be alright for a Gentile to
> buy some of her bread. She leaned slowly forward on the counter:-
> "My friend," she said, "I'm Jewish. "I'll sell you my
> grandmother if the price is right."
Because Hanukkah is still underway, let me just take this
opportunity to wish everyone Happy Challah Days....r
Jerry Friedman
> ' wrote:
> > Sarcastic, ironic, and sardonic are often listed as synonyms, but they
> > are not the same. Can you explain how they differ? Note that I wish
> > to go beyond the dictionary definitions here, to how the words are
> > actually used.
>
> Unless you have a very poor dictionary, there is no need to go beyond
> "dictionary definitions."
I disagree completely. Many actual uses of these words don't
correspond to dictionary definitions. Alanis Morissette's, for
example. At the other end of the intellectual spectrum [*], there's
Richard Rorty, one of the most eminent living American philosophers.
His definition of the term "ironist" is quoted at
<http://www.uta.edu/english/rcct/E5311/notes3.html>, among other
places. "I use 'ironist' to name the sort of person who faces up to
the contingency of his or her own most central beliefs and
desires--someone sufficiently historicist and nominalist to have
abandoned the idea that those central beliefs and desires refer back
to something beyond the reach of time and chance. Liberal ironists are
people who include among these ungroundable desires their own hope
that suffering will be diminished, that the humiliation of human
beings by other human beings may cease."
Here, as elsewhere in my experience, "irony" seems to refer to an
attitude of looking for and mocking incongruities--thus not taking
anything too seriously or (in this case) finding flaws in any claim
that beliefs are "beyond the reach of time and chance". I can't find
that definition in the AHD, MWCD10, or NSOED.
My favorite dictionary definition for "ironic" in the situational
sense is the one from NSOED. Matti quoted it at
<http://makeashorterlink.com/?D14636CA2> earlier this year. "... a
contradictory or ill-timed outcome of events as if in mockery of the
fitness of things."
> Indeed, we need not go even as far as that.
> Let's just look at where these words come from:
>
> sarcastic (< sarcasm): Gk. sarkasmos < sarkazein, to tear flesh
Oh good, now I know I don't plant roses because they're too sarcastic.
[*]
> sardonic < substituting Sardonios (Sardinian) for sardanios, for bitter and
> scornful laughter, from the notion that eating a Sardinian plant led to
> facial convulsions resembling those arising in such laughter. [This
> dates to Homer]
That works.
> ironic (<irony) < Gk. eironeia, simulated ignorance (or dissemblance)
Do enlighten me. A couple months ago my (wayward and fickle)
assistant found a strong magnet in the physics lab and mentioned to me
that it and the piece of metal that went with it had pinched him. I
smiled and said "Careful [*]". Then a couple minutes later, I managed
[*] to pinch myself quite hard with it. Is that irony? What does it
have to do with simulated ignorance or dissemblance? [*]
> Lists of "synonms" should always be taken as suggestive of related words,
> not as setting forth words that can be blindly substituted.
That I can agree with.
[*] Everyone is invited to classify the foregoing as ironic,
sarcastic, or sardonic. Inclusive "or".
--
Jerry Friedman
Simon R. Hughes
> Mike Oliver <oli...@math.ucla.edu> wrote:
[...]
> > So many seem, unfortunately, to have forgotten that _The_Mouse_That_Roared_
> > was actually a *novel*. A marvellously entertaining one, as was
> > its sequel, _The_Mouse_on_the_Moon_.
> >
> > I have little to say about the movie version; it seems that I
> > might have caught bits and pieces of it on TV.
>
> That was at the end of an era the produced some delightful British
> comedies. I don't think I'm the only Merkin who enjoyed the "Carry on"
> series and "St. Trinian" series, as well as the oddball comedies like "A
> Jolly Bad Fellow."
I (a Brit) enjoyed those films when I was a child, but find them
unwatchable these days.
--
Simon R. Hughes
<!-- -->
Joe Fineman
> Moshe and David are talking about Israel's economic troubles.
> Moshe suggests that Israel should declare war on America, lose
> and then take advantage of American reconstruction aid as
> Germany and Japan did after the second world war. "But Moshe,"
> retorts David, "what happens if we win?"
Or else "It will never work. With our luck, we'd win".
Jewish jokes often have several versions in which the point varies a
bit.
--
--- Joe Fineman j...@TheWorld.com
||: Perspective means you are not in the picture. :||
'
In my experience:
Sarcastic is most often applied to statements that say the opposite of
what is meant, usually in an exaggerated fashion that highlights the
ridiculousness of the surface interpretation. "Oh yeah, I _so_ want
to go to the mall."
Ironic is most often applied to situations where the reality is the
opposite of what might be expected in a surface interpretation.
This is very different from the usage in the Alanis Morissette song
"Ironic" (Jagged Little Pill, 1995:
http://www.alanismorissette.com/music/jaggedlittlepill.html#ironic)
which might more accurately be termed a persecution complex.
In the movie "Good Will Hunting" there is the following bit of
dialogue (approximated from memory):
"At the next reunion I'll buy you a drink."
"Sean, at those reunions the drinks are free."
"I know, I was being ironical."
This is close to my usage.
Sardonic is most often applied to a sense of humor. To be honest I
never use this word and before this inquiry I did not really know what
it meant.
The dictionary definitions (Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary,
Tenth Edition):
(Sarcasm): 1: a sharp and often ... ironic utterance designed to cut
or give pain
(Irony): 2 a: the use of words to express something other than and
esp. the opposite of the literal meaning 3 a (1): incongruity between
the actual result of a sequence of events and the normal or expected
result
(Sardonic): disdainfully or skeptically humorous: derisively mocking
SARCASTIC implies an intentional inflicting of pain by deriding,
taunting, or ridiculing. IRONIC implies an attempt to be amusing or
provocative by saying usu. the opposite of what is meant. SARDONIC
implies scorn, mockery, or derision that is manifested by either
verbal or facial expression.
I do not use sarcastic to indicate simply having intent to inflict
pain. Note that the dictionary definition says _often_ but not
necessarily ironic. By the dictionary definition it seems "I see you
made Mr. Blackwell's worst-dressed list" could be considered
sarcastic; I do not agree. (A simple addition, "Congratulations, I
see you made Mr. Blackwell's worst-dressed list", would make it
sarcastic by my definition.) My example above, "Oh yeah, I _so_ want
to go to the mall" would _not_ be sarcastic according to the
dictionary definition, unless you suppose the intent is to inflict
pain on whoever suggested I do want to go to the mall.
"Sarcastic wit" which appears frequently in the dictionary entries I
saw is not part of my usage. Before this inquiry I would have
interpreted it as close to "dry wit" which however to me has meaning
unrelated to sarcasm -- subtle humor that takes a moment to understand
(analogous to dry wine). Sarcasm by my definition cannot be subtle.
(But irony can.)
"A sarcastic tone of voice" has meaning to me (a tone of voice
designed to indicate the statement being made is not to be taken
seriously) but is difficult to assign a meaning given the dictionary
definition.
From the dictionary definition of irony we see that, in my case,
sarcastic has taken on the meaning of definition 2 a of irony, while
ironic has been reduced to the 3 a (1) definition.
In the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth
Edition, I found a usage note that indicated irony should "suggest
... lessons about human vanity or folly."
(http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ironic):
"78 percent of the Usage Panel rejects the use of ironically in the
sentence 'In 1969 Susie moved from Ithaca to California where she met
her husband-to-be, who, ironically, also came from upstate New York.'"
I have no problem with this usage; to me the term has lost this
subtlety.
Several dictionary entries for sardonic emphasized derision and
disdain.
I was not aware of the apparently close association of sardonic with
facial expression: "perhaps fr. ? to grin like a dog, or from a
certain plant of Sardinia, Gr. ?, which was said to screw up the face
of the eater" (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sardonic).
The definition of sardonic closest to my understanding is "bitterly
humorous or mocking", close to the dictionary definition of sarcastic.
Adam
On a totally unrelated note, I find the usage "78 percent of the Usage
Panel ..." extremely irritating. It is more direct, accurate,
informative, and less pretentious to say "7 out of the 9 members of
the Usage Panel ...". This of course is not about English usage, but
rather the pompous misuse of mathematics and effective communication
in general.
Jerry Friedman
> Thank you all for your responses. Here is my answer.
>
> In my experience:
>
> Sarcastic is most often applied to statements that say the opposite of
> what is meant, usually in an exaggerated fashion that highlights the
> ridiculousness of the surface interpretation. "Oh yeah, I _so_ want
> to go to the mall."
I think that's true, at least in the U.S.
...
> The dictionary definitions (Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary,
> Tenth Edition):
>
> (Sarcasm): 1: a sharp and often ... ironic utterance designed to cut
> or give pain
> (Irony): 2 a: the use of words to express something other than and
> esp. the opposite of the literal meaning 3 a (1): incongruity between
> the actual result of a sequence of events and the normal or expected
> result
> (Sardonic): disdainfully or skeptically humorous: derisively mocking
>
> SARCASTIC implies an intentional inflicting of pain by deriding,
> taunting, or ridiculing. IRONIC implies an attempt to be amusing or
> provocative by saying usu. the opposite of what is meant. SARDONIC
> implies scorn, mockery, or derision that is manifested by either
> verbal or facial expression.
>
> I do not use sarcastic to indicate simply having intent to inflict
> pain. Note that the dictionary definition says _often_ but not
> necessarily ironic. By the dictionary definition it seems "I see you
> made Mr. Blackwell's worst-dressed list" could be considered
> sarcastic; I do not agree. (A simple addition, "Congratulations, I
> see you made Mr. Blackwell's worst-dressed list", would make it
> sarcastic by my definition.) My example above, "Oh yeah, I _so_ want
> to go to the mall" would _not_ be sarcastic according to the
> dictionary definition, unless you suppose the intent is to inflict
> pain on whoever suggested I do want to go to the mall.
I agree with you, and it seems to me that "sarcasm" generally implies
some sort of indirection, something the listener has to figure out.
The simplest is saying the opposite of what is meant, but there are
other kinds. How about "You're ugly, and your mother dresses you
funny"? That's certainly "intentional inflicting of pain by deriding,
taunting, or ridiculing", but I wouldn't call it sarcasm.
> "Sarcastic wit" which appears frequently in the dictionary entries I
> saw is not part of my usage. Before this inquiry I would have
> interpreted it as close to "dry wit" which however to me has meaning
> unrelated to sarcasm -- subtle humor that takes a moment to understand
> (analogous to dry wine). Sarcasm by my definition cannot be subtle.
> (But irony can.)
So by my definition sarcasm has to be subtle--at least a little.
...
> "78 percent of the Usage Panel rejects the use of ironically in the
> sentence 'In 1969 Susie moved from Ithaca to California where she met
> her husband-to-be, who, ironically, also came from upstate New York.'"
>
> I have no problem with this usage; to me the term has lost this
> subtlety.
I'd say something like "oddly enough" instead.
...
> On a totally unrelated note, I find the usage "78 percent of the Usage
> Panel ..." extremely irritating. It is more direct, accurate,
> informative, and less pretentious to say "7 out of the 9 members of
> the Usage Panel ...". This of course is not about English usage, but
> rather the pompous misuse of mathematics and effective communication
> in general.
There were a couple hundred people on the usage panel, listed at
<http://www.bartleby.com/64/12.html>.
--
Jerry Friedman
richard.chambers7
"'" <ack9...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:45b780c3.02120...@posting.google.com...
> . . . .[cut] . . . .
> The definition of sardonic closest to my understanding is "bitterly
> humorous or mocking", close to the dictionary definition of sarcastic.
>
>
given an actual example of sardonic wit. As a Brit, I perceive it as
something which is very American, laconic in the extreme, and
self-disregarding. I have spent some time in the last day-and-a-half trying
to think of an example. The one I have come up with concerns an American and
a German soldier facing each other at a distance of twenty yards. The German
fires, and the bullet scrapes past the cheek of the American, causing blood
to flow from a surface wound. "Missed!" shouts the American, shooting the
German dead.
Would you agree that the simple exclamation of "Missed!" in these
circumstances is sardonic humour? Do you think that this style of humour is
more typically American than it is British? Have I got hold of the wrong
end of the stick? Can you give me any alternative examples of the sardonic?
I do not agree with your conclusions on irony. Primarily, irony is a comment
on the ups and downs of life, particularly if the "down" is terrible in the
extreme. It is only a secondary (not a primary) feature of irony that the
humour is effected by saying something that you do not believe to be true,
or by saying the opposite of the truth. Somebody earlier in the thread
mentioned Voltaire's "Candide", which is an excellent source for those
interested in studying good examples of irony. Voltaire is probably the best
writer in the ironic style that the world has seen. A good translation of
Candide is available in Penguin Books. I claimed in an earlier posting that
irony is the speciality of the British, but we may have learnt it from the
French.
Richard Chambers Leeds UK.
'
"'" <ack9...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:45b780c3.02120...@posting.google.com...
> The definition of sardonic closest to my understanding is "bitterly
> humorous or mocking", close to the dictionary definition of sarcastic.
Your investigation is not quite complete, in my opinion, because nobody has
given an actual example of sardonic wit.
Unfortunately I have not much experience with the word, as I noted.
The one I have come up with concerns an American and a German soldier
facing each other at a distance of twenty yards. The German fires, and
the bullet scrapes past the cheek of the American, causing blood to
flow from a surface wound. "Missed!" shouts the American, shooting the
German dead.
At present I would say this is not a good example of the sardonic. It
is certainly mocking, and humorous, but it is not in any way bitter;
the American is likely rather gleeful at being alive.
Do you think that this style of humour is more typically American than
it is British? ... Can you give me any alternative examples of the
sardonic?
I will try. There is an American comic strip, The Boondocks by Aaron
McGruder (http://www.ucomics.com/boondocks/) that appears to be
unrelentingly sardonic. Any day's panel serves as a good example.
Friday, December 6, 2002:
"Huey, what does 'euro -- whateveryousaid' mean?"
"Eurocentrism? It's when you eliminate the African perspective and
marginalize or omit people of color -- their contributions, their
experiences, etc. Understand?"
"Not really."
"Do you ever watch 'Friends'"?
"Yes."
"Then you understand."
Hmm, I just realized that 'Friends' as an American sitcom may be a bad
example to give a Brit. Briefly, 'Friends' is an immensely popular
show about the trials and tribulations of six friends, all white. I
do not watch it much but I have never seen a black person on the show.
Here is another panel that is not culture-specific and also is not
focused on racism. Saturday, December 7, 2002:
"You got in trouble today?"
"Yeah, granddad was mad I didn't take my textbooks to school."
"Hmmm."
"What?"
"It's just interesting that nobody ever notices that I _never_ have my
textbooks."
"If only we were all as adept at lowering people's expectations."
I would say sardonic wit arises out of a dark and cynical view of the
world, and usually a sense of personal injury (thus the bitterness).
Humor is often a coping mechanism that makes light of the subject.
Let me postulate that sardonicism represents a failure of this coping
mechanism, because the sardonic never loses his serious intent and in
a fundamental way sardonic wit is not "funny". (Here we finally find
the notion of "opposition" common to the uses of sarcasm and irony.)
Blacks in America experience personal injuries due to racism every
day, thus their humor is often sardonic. (Aaron McGruder and all the
main characters of The Boondocks are black.) However, mainstream
Americans are fundamentally optimistic since they are rich and
powerful and can generally afford to ignore the rest of the world
(this fact contributes to black sardonicism). Thus I would say
sardonic humor is not part of mainstream America.
I do not agree with your conclusions on irony. Primarily, irony is a comment
on the ups and downs of life, particularly if the "down" is terrible in the
extreme.
Interesting. I do not perceive this, and it is not in the dictionary
definition. I suppose it is somewhat related to the Usage Panel's
position that irony be reserved for comments on human vanity or folly.
It is only a secondary (not a primary) feature of irony that the
humour is effected by saying something that you do not believe to be true,
or by saying the opposite of the truth.
It is only the dictionary definition that describes irony as saying
the opposite of what you mean (and then only as one of several
alternate uses). My personal usage of the word does not have this
feature.
The example from "Good Will Hunting" does not comment on the
vicissitudes of life (buying a drink for free hardly qualifes as "up"
or "down"), and the character Sean is not saying something that he
believes untrue or is the opposite of the truth (he does not believe
he will not "buy" the drink and apparently does intend to "buy" the
drink); he simply did not mention the fact that the drinks are free
which is contrary to the expectation set up by "buy".
So at least one person does seem to agree with my usage.
Somebody earlier in the thread mentioned Voltaire's "Candide", which
is an excellent source for those interested in studying good examples
of irony. Voltaire is probably the best writer in the ironic style
that the world has seen. A good translation of Candide is available in
Penguin Books.
Thank you for the recommendation.
Adam
'
I agree with you, and it seems to me that "sarcasm" generally implies
some sort of indirection, something the listener has to figure out.
The simplest is saying the opposite of what is meant, but there are
other kinds.
I cannot think of an example I would call sarcastic that involves any
kind of indirection other than blatant opposition.
> Sarcasm by my definition cannot be subtle.
So by my definition sarcasm has to be subtle--at least a little.
In my experience it is so important to the intent of a sarcastic
statement that the target "get it" that the statement itself is
subject to various distortions such as extreme modifiers, syllabic
emphasis, and tone of voice. It is impossible to subtly say the
opposite of what you mean (unless the intent is to mislead, which is
called lying).
> On a totally unrelated note, I find the usage "78 percent of the Usage
> Panel ..." extremely irritating. It is more direct, accurate,
> informative, and less pretentious to say "7 out of the 9 members of
> the Usage Panel ...". This of course is not about English usage, but
> rather the pompous misuse of mathematics and effective communication
> in general.
There were a couple hundred people on the usage panel, listed at
<http://www.bartleby.com/64/12.html>.
Very well, this usage is not pretentious or pompous. The information
that there were a couple hundred people on the panel is necessary to
forestall unkind interpreters like myself, but if the panel is
referred to frequently (likely) and the number of members is mentioned
at the beginning (likely) then I am simply guilty of criticizing a
quote taken out of context.
Adam
gmrs...@gmail.com
Sarcastic is when you state something contrary to what another has said or done. For example, if someone asks you in class, "wait its 15 minutes until lunch, right?" and what they said was true, a person may respond with "no, its 2,000 hours until lunch" in a demeaning tone to form humor. The person who recieves a sarcastic response is usually offended, while some others find it funny. To use sarcasm correctly, you should either read the crowd before making a sarcastic comment or just not care if people get mad, you end up looking obnoxious, or you make a fool of yourself.
Sardonic is the next level of sarcasm. While sarcasm is usually light and cheery, sardony usually has a grim tone or topic. For example, if you and two friends are walking down an alleyway and get held up by a man in an attempted mug and one of your friemds got shot and the other was,not patong attention, if the other asks "Um, did [name] just get shot?" after turning and seeing the bullet wound and your friend bleeding on the floor, a person may say, "No, they jumped off a building onto an active electrical wire and got shocked, then carried to the Pacific Ocean by a flock og seagulls." I realize that was an extreme case, I don't even know why that came to my mind but it was the least violent thing I could think of.
Janet
gmrs...@gmail.com says...
> Ironic is when you state something in which everyone in the group has the same or similar opinions about,
> Sarcastic is when you state something contrary to what another has said or done.
While sarcasm is usually light and cheery, sardony usually has a grim
tone or topic.
Janet.