=SDC= Q50: Froglorn Leghorn
Vinny Burgoo
It was a dark and stormy night and low clouds, roiling overhead like a
drab rug gyrated by a hidden horde of frenzied Diabolonians, hurled down
rain by the gallon to obliterate Professor Doktor Xenophrasticus van
Leghorn's little party as it emerged at last from the forest of giant
asparagus ("Ah! Cleidaceae!" the big Boer gasped, flushing with
childlike pleasure, when he first saw the plant: "The asparagine
bracteate equivalence is wholly specious!") and squinted, blinking, from
the rim of the crater at a spectacle vested with such horror that none
could later say how they had remained steadfast, ambulant and continent,
though love of the Vulcan Diamond (or Patina) Frog and fear of the tall,
indomitable colonial scholar's scorn certainly played their parts: at
the centre of a heathen necropolis a bonfire defied the downpour and
illuminated a wheeled pagan temple - a barbarian version of those little
shacks from which the fairer sex bathes at Brighton - before which
thousands of orange frogs with amber limbs and a curious greenish
lozenge on their backs were being subjected to acts of an unspeakably
evil nature by ninety-nine ape-like creatures wearing chainmail and
macabre masks with big rubber noses while the hundredth, the simians'
evil leader, prepared himself for the sombre slaughter of the gaudy,
chirruping innocents by tightening his belt-buckle, effortlessly moving
the heavy oaken temple back ten yards and, after wiping his hands with a
damp rag, lighting the fuse of a grenade.
"Those misobatrachian vandals down there," said the prof, gesturing
dismissively at the crater. "I find them uniquely creepy. But behave
nicely, as gentle as you can be, eh? Aim to kill them quickly - thoracic
or in the throat. And don't step on any frogs or I'll dock your pay."
Next week: Who won and how.
===
How many exonyms of European cities can you find in the above? All
exonyms must use the unaccented 26-letter Latin alphabet. Endonyms can
be in any alphabet. Cities can't be used twice. Cities can overlap.
Archaic exonyms (e.g. Leghorn, Cleves) aren't allowed. In each case,
provide the exonym, a language that uses it, and the endonym or its
usual English version.
A Cormo for the first to list all exonyms that the Panel knows of in the
text above. A Touabaire for whoever has listed the greatest number of
exonyms when the question is closed.
Special bonus: a Cormo for the exonym of a small North American
community.
--
VB
T. O. Panellist
James Hogg
Here's what I've found so far:
Bruggy, Czech for Bruges
Bolonia, Spanish for Bologna
Flushing, English for Vlissingen (or is that archaic?)
Ginebra, Catalan for Geneva
Stambul, Polish for Istanbul
Candia, Italian for Iraklio
Tallin, Spanish for Tallinn
Lisabon, Slovak for Lisbon
Gant, Catalan for Ghent
Anvers, French for Antwerp
Berlim, Portuguese for Berlin
Vilna, Slovenian for Vilnius
Neapel, Swedish for Naples
Mailand, German for Milan
Berno, Polish for Bern
Seville, English for Sevilla
Breslau, German for Wroclaw
Kleef, Dutch for Cleves
Prag, German for Prague
Munique, Portuguese for Munich
--
James
CDB
>>
Venice, English for Venezia;
Corinth, English for Korinthos.
musika
Then there's
Ragusa, Italian for Dubrovnik.
--
Ray
UK
musika
--
Ray
UK
musika
--
Ray
UK
musika
--
Ray
UK
Vinny Burgoo
>Flushing, English for Vlissingen (or is that archaic?)
Only if I am. That's what we called it in when my family went there in
the '60s.
(I didn't think anyone calls Kleve Cleves. Most of us talk about
Anneofcleves without really associating her name with a real place. The
exceptions probably call her Anne of Kleve.)
The Polish 'Stambul', however, is dodgy. The L has a bar through it.
Try the Latvian, Stambula.
LFS
In 1962 my parents sent me on an organised holiday to Blankenberg. I
remember very little about it, apart from delicious icecream and at some
point visiting both Flushing and Sluis, which I found rather funny.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
James Hogg
OK then:
Stambula, Latvian for Istanbul
plus
Gand, French for Ghent
Turin, English for Torino
Atina, Bosnian for Athens
Wasa, a spelling you sometimes see in English and Swedish for Vaasa in
Finland
I suppose Grena could be called an exonym for Grenå in Denmark
In an ideal world, Lozen would be Lausanne in some language, but I can
only find Lozan, e.g. in Turkish
Linkin, illiterate for Lincoln
--
James
James Hogg
> Vinny Burgoo wrote:
>> In alt.usage.english, James Hogg wrote:
>>
>>> Flushing, English for Vlissingen (or is that archaic?)
>> Only if I am. That's what we called it in when my family went there in
>> the '60s.
>>
>> (I didn't think anyone calls Kleve Cleves. Most of us talk about
>> Anneofcleves without really associating her name with a real place. The
>> exceptions probably call her Anne of Kleve.)
>>
>> The Polish 'Stambul', however, is dodgy. The L has a bar through it.
>>
>> Try the Latvian, Stambula.
>
> OK then:
>
> Stambula, Latvian for Istanbul
>
> plus
>
> Gand, French for Ghent
> Turin, English for Torino
> Atina, Bosnian for Athens
> Wasa, a spelling you sometimes see in English and Swedish for Vaasa in
> Finland
>
> In an ideal world, Lozen would be Lausanne in some language, but I can
> only find Lozan, e.g. in Turkish
>
> Linkin, illiterate for Lincoln
And how could I forget this?
Colonia, Italian for Köln
--
James
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Is it really possible that I've found one that James missed? Or is it
just that I've missed it in his list?
Boergas, Dutch for Burgas
--
athel
James Hogg
> On 2011-08-24 09:07:54 +0200, James Hogg <Jas....@gOUTmail.com> said:
>
>> James Hogg wrote:
>>> Vinny Burgoo wrote:
>>>> In alt.usage.english, James Hogg wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Flushing, English for Vlissingen (or is that archaic?)
>>>> Only if I am. That's what we called it in when my family went there in
>>>> the '60s.
>>>>
>>>> (I didn't think anyone calls Kleve Cleves. Most of us talk about
>>>> Anneofcleves without really associating her name with a real place. The
>>>> exceptions probably call her Anne of Kleve.)
>>>>
>>>> The Polish 'Stambul', however, is dodgy. The L has a bar through it.
>>>>
>>>> Try the Latvian, Stambula.
>>>
>>> OK then:
>>>
>>> Stambula, Latvian for Istanbul
>>>
>>> plus
>>>
>>> Gand, French for Ghent
>>> Turin, English for Torino
>>> Atina, Bosnian for Athens
>>> Wasa, a spelling you sometimes see in English and Swedish for Vaasa in
>>> Finland
>>>
>>> In an ideal world, Lozen would be Lausanne in some language, but I can
>>> only find Lozan, e.g. in Turkish
>>>
>>> Linkin, illiterate for Lincoln
>>
>> And how could I forget this?
>>
>> Colonia, Italian for Köln
>
> Is it really possible that I've found one that James missed? Or is it
> just that I've missed it in his list?
>
> Boergas, Dutch for Burgas
It's perfectly possible to find ones that I missed. In the words "behave
nicely" I was so desperately trying to think of a place-name Haven that
I missed Venice.
Leida, Portuguese for Leiden
Valence, French for Valencia
Lontoo, Finnish for London
Rim, Croatian for Rome
Rom, Danish for Rome
--
James
musika
Damn, I just got Leida and Valence. According to the rules I don't think you
can use Rome twice.
--
Ray
UK
James Hogg
> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2011-08-24 09:07:54 +0200, James Hogg <Jas....@gOUTmail.com> said:
>>
>>> James Hogg wrote:
>>>> Vinny Burgoo wrote:
>>>>> In alt.usage.english, James Hogg wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Flushing, English for Vlissingen (or is that archaic?)
>>>>> Only if I am. That's what we called it in when my family went there in
>>>>> the '60s.
>>>>>
>>>>> (I didn't think anyone calls Kleve Cleves. Most of us talk about
>>>>> Anneofcleves without really associating her name with a real place. The
>>>>> exceptions probably call her Anne of Kleve.)
>>>>>
>>>>> The Polish 'Stambul', however, is dodgy. The L has a bar through it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Try the Latvian, Stambula.
>>>> OK then:
>>>>
>>>> Stambula, Latvian for Istanbul
>>>>
>>>> plus
>>>>
>>>> Gand, French for Ghent
>>>> Turin, English for Torino
>>>> Atina, Bosnian for Athens
>>>> Wasa, a spelling you sometimes see in English and Swedish for Vaasa in
>>>> Finland
>>>>
>>>> In an ideal world, Lozen would be Lausanne in some language, but I can
>>>> only find Lozan, e.g. in Turkish
>>>>
>>>> Linkin, illiterate for Lincoln
>>> And how could I forget this?
>>>
>>> Colonia, Italian for Köln
>> Is it really possible that I've found one that James missed? Or is it
>> just that I've missed it in his list?
>>
>> Boergas, Dutch for Burgas
>
> It's perfectly possible to find ones that I missed. In the words "behave
> nicely" I was so desperately trying to think of a place-name Haven that
> I missed Venice.
>
> Leida, Portuguese for Leiden
> Valence, French for Valencia
> Lontoo, Finnish for London
> Rim, Croatian for Rome
> Rom, Danish for Rome
Aken, Dutch for Aachen
--
James
James Hogg
>>>>>
>>>>> In an ideal world, Lozen would be Lausanne in some language, but I
>>>>> can only find Lozan, e.g. in Turkish
>>>>>
>>>>> Linkin, illiterate for Lincoln
>>>>
>>>> And how could I forget this?
>>>>
>>>> Colonia, Italian for Köln
>>>
>>> Is it really possible that I've found one that James missed? Or is it
>>> just that I've missed it in his list?
>>>
>>> Boergas, Dutch for Burgas
>>
>> It's perfectly possible to find ones that I missed. In the words
>> "behave nicely" I was so desperately trying to think of a place-name
>> Haven that I missed Venice.
>>
>> Leida, Portuguese for Leiden
>> Valence, French for Valencia
>> Lontoo, Finnish for London
>> Rim, Croatian for Rome
>> Rom, Danish for Rome
>
> Damn, I just got Leida and Valence. According to the rules I don't think
> you can use Rome twice.
You're right. I got carried away. I've broken the rules twice. I have
two Ghents as well.
--
James
Athel Cornish-Bowden
> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2011-08-24 09:07:54 +0200, James Hogg <Jas....@gOUTmail.com> said:
>>
>>> James Hogg wrote:
>>>> Vinny Burgoo wrote:
>>>>> In alt.usage.english, James Hogg wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Flushing, English for Vlissingen (or is that archaic?)
>>>>> Only if I am. That's what we called it in when my family went there in
>>>>> the '60s.
>>>>>
>>>>> (I didn't think anyone calls Kleve Cleves. Most of us talk about
>>>>> Anneofcleves without really associating her name with a real place. The
>>>>> exceptions probably call her Anne of Kleve.)
>>>>>
>>>>> The Polish 'Stambul', however, is dodgy. The L has a bar through it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Try the Latvian, Stambula.
>>>>
>>>> OK then:
>>>>
>>>> Stambula, Latvian for Istanbul
>>>>
>>>> plus
>>>>
>>>> Gand, French for Ghent
>>>> Turin, English for Torino
>>>> Atina, Bosnian for Athens
>>>> Wasa, a spelling you sometimes see in English and Swedish for Vaasa in
>>>> Finland
>>>> I suppose Grena could be called an exonym for Grenĺ in Denmark
>>>>
>>>> In an ideal world, Lozen would be Lausanne in some language, but I can
>>>> only find Lozan, e.g. in Turkish
>>>>
>>>> Linkin, illiterate for Lincoln
>>>
>>> And how could I forget this?
>>>
>>> Colonia, Italian for Köln
>>
>> Is it really possible that I've found one that James missed? Or is it
>> just that I've missed it in his list?
>>
>> Boergas, Dutch for Burgas
>
> It's perfectly possible to find ones that I missed. In the words "behave
> nicely" I was so desperately trying to think of a place-name Haven that
> I missed Venice.
>
> Leida, Portuguese for Leiden
> Valence, French for Valencia
> Lontoo, Finnish for London
> Rim, Croatian for Rome
> Rom, Danish for Rome
OK. You're certainly a lot better at it than I am, nonetheless. I felt
sure there had to be a reason for writing "Boer" rather than "Dutchman".
--
athel
Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>>>> I suppose Grena could be called an exonym for Gren� in Denmark
>>>>>
>>>>> In an ideal world, Lozen would be Lausanne in some language, but I
>>>>> can only find Lozan, e.g. in Turkish
>>>>>
>>>>> Linkin, illiterate for Lincoln
>>>>
>>>> And how could I forget this?
>>>>
>>>> Colonia, Italian for K�ln
>>>
>>> Is it really possible that I've found one that James missed? Or is it
>>> just that I've missed it in his list?
>>>
>>> Boergas, Dutch for Burgas
>>
>> It's perfectly possible to find ones that I missed. In the words
>> "behave nicely" I was so desperately trying to think of a place-name
>> Haven that I missed Venice.
>>
>> Leida, Portuguese for Leiden
>> Valence, French for Valencia
>> Lontoo, Finnish for London
>> Rim, Croatian for Rome
>> Rom, Danish for Rome
>
> Damn, I just got Leida and Valence. According to the rules I don't
> think you can use Rome twice.
On the other hand I feel sure some language must call Lleida Leida.
Catalan has an enthusiasm for starting words with Ll that even the
Welsh must envy, but it's not shared by most other languages (even
Castilian, which uses ll much less than Catalan does). However, the
only page that I can find that uses Leida for Lleida makes it look more
like a misspelling than an exonym.
Got it! Aragonese spells it Leida (and as it's pretty darn close to
Aragon their opinion should carry some weight!).
--
athel
Athel Cornish-Bowden
> ===
> It was a dark and stormy night...
Lanta (French, and I suppose English) for Occitan Lantar
--
athel
Lars Enderin
> Wasa, a spelling you sometimes see in English and Swedish for Vaasa in
> Finland
The current Swedish name is Vasa, though. Note that the Swedish names of
places in Finland are often the original names, since Finland was a
Swedish province for hundreds of years. For example, Helsingfors is at
least as valid a name as Helsinki, and I think Åbo predated Turku.
James Hogg
How does the panel define exonym? Vasa is an endonym for the
Swedish-speaking minority in Finland (as it was for the Swedish-speaking
majority that used to exist in that city). Can Anvers be called an
exonym in Belgium when French is one of the official languages in
Belgium? There must be native French speakers even in Antwerp.
--
James
Vinny Burgoo
For this question, if a city is in a generally X-speaking area then the
name in X is an endonym. If people who speak Y have a name for it that
is different (incl. mere spelling) to the name in X then the name in Y
is an exonym. It doesn't matter who founded the city or whether the
country is officially multilingual.
'City' might also need a definition. The Panel has yet to discuss this
properly. It had an informal rule that, to count as a city, a settlement
had to have a population larger than 100,000. That doesn't tally with
real-world English usage so might be relaxed.
(Vaasa has a population of about 60,000.)
--
VB
T. O. Arbitrary
Joe Fineman
> Ragusa, Italian for Dubrovnik.
Even more wonderful, Tsarephat, Hebrew for France.
--
--- Joe Fineman jo...@verizon.net
||: Who would not rather read a story about people catching fish :||
||: than a story about people eating fish? :||
msh210
> Even more wonderful, Tsarephat, Hebrew for France.
Sorry, the rules say:
# All exonyms must use the unaccented 26-letter Latin alphabet.
Michael Hamm
TO Panelist
musika
> "musika" <mUs...@SPAMNOTexcite.com> writes:
>
>> Ragusa, Italian for Dubrovnik.
>
> Even more wonderful, Tsarephat, Hebrew for France.
>
--
Ray
UK
Peter Moylan
the place Anvers at home, although they generally call it Antwerpen when
they're out in public. (In some quarters, there is hostility towards
speaking French in public.) We should consider, though, that those
people are outnumbered by far by the people in France who call it Anvers.
Likewise, there must be more Swedish speakers outside Finland than inside.
--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.
Vinny Burgoo
This one collides with the Panel's definition of 'exonym' (Lanta is in a
generally French-speaking area) and bumps gently but fatally against its
undefined definition of 'city'.
Which is a shame. There must be some T. O. exonyms in the text that the
Panel didn't spot.
--
VB
T. O. European
Vinny Burgoo
>Is it really possible that I've found one that James missed? Or is it
>just that I've missed it in his list?
>
>Boergas, Dutch for Burgas
Accepted (and spotted) by the Panel.
Vinny Burgoo
>musika wrote:
>> musika wrote:
>>> Then there's
>>> Ragusa, Italian for Dubrovnik.
>> Dorpat, German for Tartu.
>Athen, German et al for Athens
Accepted (and spotted) by the Panel.
Vinny Burgoo
>> Leida, Portuguese for Leiden
>> Valence, French for Valencia
>> Lontoo, Finnish for London
>> Rim, Croatian for Rome
>> Rom, Danish for Rome
>
>Aken, Dutch for Aachen
Four accepted (and spotted) by the Panel. 'Rom' is a self-duplicate.
Vinny Burgoo
>And how could I forget this?
>
>Colonia, Italian for Köln
Accepted (and spotted) by the Panel.
Vinny Burgoo
>Here's what I've found so far:
>
>Bruggy, Czech for Bruges
>Bolonia, Spanish for Bologna
>Flushing, English for Vlissingen (or is that archaic?)
>Ginebra, Catalan for Geneva
>Stambul, Polish for Istanbul
>Candia, Italian for Iraklio
>Tallin, Spanish for Tallinn
>Lisabon, Slovak for Lisbon
>Gant, Catalan for Ghent
>Anvers, French for Antwerp
>Berlim, Portuguese for Berlin
>Vilna, Slovenian for Vilnius
>Neapel, Swedish for Naples
>Mailand, German for Milan
>Berno, Polish for Bern
>Seville, English for Sevilla
>Breslau, German for Wroclaw
>Kleef, Dutch for Cleves
>Prag, German for Prague
>Munique, Portuguese for Munich
Accepted (and spotted) by the Panel.
Vinny Burgoo
[...]
>Gand, French for Ghent
>Turin, English for Torino
>Atina, Bosnian for Athens
>Wasa, a spelling you sometimes see in English and Swedish for Vaasa in
>Finland
>I suppose Grena could be called an exonym for Grenå in Denmark
>
>In an ideal world, Lozen would be Lausanne in some language, but I can
>only find Lozan, e.g. in Turkish
>
>Linkin, illiterate for Lincoln
Turin is accepted (and was spotted) by the Panel.
It didn't spot Wasa or Grena. It would need proof that Wasa is a current
exonym (as defined above somewhere) of Vaasa. Grena? No. It's too small
and its exonymity is too fragile.
Ghent is one kind of duplicate, Athens another.
--
VB
T. O. Arbitrary European
Vinny Burgoo
>On the other hand I feel sure some language must call Lleida Leida.
>Catalan has an enthusiasm for starting words with Ll that even the
>Welsh must envy, but it's not shared by most other languages (even
>Castilian, which uses ll much less than Catalan does). However, the
>only page that I can find that uses Leida for Lleida makes it look more
>like a misspelling than an exonym.
>
>Got it! Aragonese spells it Leida (and as it's pretty darn close to
>Aragon their opinion should carry some weight!).
Aragonese? The Panel has rooms full of humble, dedicated and skilled
Googlers (on at least the minimum wage, honest) but I doubt that even
they can find 'Leida' meaning 'Lleida' in Aragonese.
Proof, please.
Vinny Burgoo
>Couple more near the end:
>
>Venice, English for Venezia;
>Corinth, English for Korinthos.
Accepted (and spotted) by the Panel.
--
VB
T. O. European
James Hogg
Vinny Burgoo
That was quick. (A dozen flunkies have just been fired.)
This, too, could collide with the question's definition of 'exonym' (is
Catalonia a generally Catalan-speaking area?) but it might get through.
The Panel is nothing if not democratic.
--
VB
T. O. Panellist
musika
> musika wrote:
>> musika wrote:
>>>> Ragusa, Italian for Dubrovnik.
>>> Dorpat, German for Tartu.
>> Athen, German et al for Athens
Bon, Albanian for Bonn
--
Ray
UK
Vinny Burgoo
'Bon' accepted (and spotted) by the Panel.
musika
--
Ray
UK
musika
--
Ray
UK
musika
--
Ray
UK
musika
>Ragusa, Italian for Dubrovnik.
> Dorpat, German for Tartu.
> Athen, German et al for Athens
> Brema, Italian for Bremen.
> Bon, Albanian for Bonn
> Bolonia, Basque for Bologna
> Turin, Czech for Torino
> Prag, Danish for Praha
--
Ray
UK
musika
--
Ray
UK
musika
--
Ray
UK
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Most definitely, especially in a smaller city like Lleida.
> but it might get through. The Panel is nothing if not democratic.
--
athel
Athel Cornish-Bowden
> In alt.usage.english, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2011-08-23 12:01:49 +0200, Vinny Burgoo <hlu...@yahoo.co.uk> said:
>>
>>> ===
>>> It was a dark and stormy night...
>>
>> Lanta (French, and I suppose English) for Occitan Lantar
>
> This one collides with the Panel's definition of 'exonym' (Lanta is in
> a generally French-speaking area)
True. Not much Occitan spoken in France.
> and bumps gently but fatally against its undefined definition of 'city'.
Definitely. I forgot that requirement.
>
> Which is a shame. There must be some T. O. exonyms in the text that the
> Panel didn't spot.
--
athel
Joe Fineman
> On Aug 24, Joe Fineman abed:
>> Even more wonderful, Tsarephat, Hebrew for France.
>
> Sorry, the rules say:
> # All exonyms must use the unaccented 26-letter Latin alphabet.
I apologize. I did not read the beginning of this thread, and did not
realize that it was a contest. I will eschew =SDC= threads in
future.
--
--- Joe Fineman jo...@verizon.net
||: Beware of single-issue people and multiple-issue :||
||: organizations. :||
musika
--
Ray
UK
James Hogg
Well spotted!
--
James
musika
Thanks. I knew frogs were there for a reason.
--
Ray
UK
James Hogg
And here's a blindingly obvious one that we have all missed:
Grenade, French for Granada
--
James
musika
Ha! I looked up Grenade but didn't find the association. Bugger!
--
Ray
UK
James Hogg
Then there is Nis, which could be Turkish for Nice or English for Ni�.
--
James
musika
Well done. I've given up now.
--
Ray
UK
Peter Moylan
As it happens, it's also English for Torino.
--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.
Jeffrey Turner
A little Grenadine with one's sheep isn't a bad idea.
Jeffrey Turner
> msh210<msh...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Aug 24, Joe Fineman abed:
>>> Even more wonderful, Tsarephat, Hebrew for France.
>>
>> Sorry, the rules say:
>> # All exonyms must use the unaccented 26-letter Latin alphabet.
>
> I apologize. I did not read the beginning of this thread, and did not
> realize that it was a contest. I will eschew =SDC= threads in
> future.
Eschew 50 times before swallowing.
R H Draney
To put it in the mood?...r
--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.
R H Draney
LFS
That would be for cows, shirley.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Athel Cornish-Bowden
English and French too, for that matter. I was there a few weeks ago.
"Turin" is still alive and well in French, but giving way to "Torino"
in English. (Apart from anything else English speakers don't know how
to pronounce "Turin" -- imitation French, like "Turing" without the g,
or stress on the "in".)
--
athel
Athel Cornish-Bowden
<inv...@peter.pmoylan.org.invalid> said:
> musika wrote:
>> musika wrote:
>>> musika wrote:
>>>> musika wrote:
>>>>> musika wrote:
>>>>>> musika wrote:
>>>>>>> musika wrote:
>>>>>>>> Ragusa, Italian for Dubrovnik.
>>>>>>> Dorpat, German for Tartu.
>>>>>> Athen, German et al for Athens
>>>>> Brema, Italian for Bremen.
>>>> Bon, Albanian for Bonn
>>> Bolonia, Basque for Bologna
>> Turin, Czech for Torino
>
> As it happens, it's also English for Torino.
You were there before me! I didn't see this when I posted a few minutes ago.
--
athel
Athel Cornish-Bowden
> Fletcherize
W. E. Gladstone (famous for other things as well) had the same idea.
--
athel
Athel Cornish-Bowden
> In alt.usage.english, James Hogg wrote:
>
>> Flushing, English for Vlissingen (or is that archaic?)
>
> Only if I am. That's what we called it in when my family went there in
> the '60s.
>
> (I didn't think anyone calls Kleve Cleves.
The French do, I think. (At least, they call it "Clèves", which would
be disallowed by the rules.)
> Most of us talk about Anneofcleves without really associating her name
> with a real place. The exceptions probably call her Anne of Kleve.)
>
> The Polish 'Stambul', however, is dodgy. The L has a bar through it.
>
> Try the Latvian, Stambula.
--
athel
Athel Cornish-Bowden
> In alt.usage.english, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
>> On the other hand I feel sure some language must call Lleida Leida.
>> Catalan has an enthusiasm for starting words with Ll that even the
>> Welsh must envy, but it's not shared by most other languages (even
>> Castilian, which uses ll much less than Catalan does). However, the
>> only page that I can find that uses Leida for Lleida makes it look more
>> like a misspelling than an exonym.
>>
>> Got it! Aragonese spells it Leida (and as it's pretty darn close to
>> Aragon their opinion should carry some weight!).
>
> Aragonese? The Panel has rooms full of humble, dedicated and skilled
> Googlers (on at least the minimum wage, honest) but I doubt that even
> they can find 'Leida' meaning 'Lleida' in Aragonese.
>
> Proof, please.
This makes me wonder how the Panel went about their work in devising
the question. I assumed that they did what I did: (1) notice (or
deliberately introduce) the string "leida"; (2) think it might be an
exonym for Lleida in some language; (3) go to the Wikipedia page for
Lleida; (4) check all the different versions in turn (you don't need to
open the actual pages, as mousing over the names of the language gives
you the name in that language as a tooltip). I'd have got there quicker
if I'd actually gone in order, as Aragonese is the first (apart from
Arabic) on the list, but I made the mistake of going to ones I thought
likely first, but nearly all of them call it Lleida, or they call it
something based on the Castilian Lérida.
Incidentally, you asked elsethread if most people in Catalonia speak
Catalan (to which I answered yes, at least they do outside Barcelona),
but another important point is that Lleida is the official Spanish
name. The Castilian article says "Lérida (en catalán y oficialmente
Lleida) es una ciudad española...", and I think that probably reflects
the legal reality.
--
athel
Athel Cornish-Bowden
<acor...@ifr88.cnrs-mrs.fr> said:
> On 2011-08-25 20:32:04 +0200, Vinny Burgoo said:
>
>> In alt.usage.english, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>> On 2011-08-23 12:01:49 +0200, Vinny Burgoo <hlu...@yahoo.co.uk> said:
>>>
>>>> ===
>>>> It was a dark and stormy night...
>>>
>>> Lanta (French, and I suppose English) for Occitan Lantar
>>
>> This one collides with the Panel's definition of 'exonym' (Lanta is in
>> a generally French-speaking area)
>
> True. Not much Occitan spoken in France.
As far as I recall I've only once heard Occitan spoken, and that was
spoken by an Englishman receiving an honorary degree in Bordeaux, and,
not surprisingly, he made it sound rather English. If you accept
Provençal as a form of Occitan (though French people don't usually seem
to include it when they refer to Occitan) I've heard it more often, but
usually spoken with such a strong French accent that it doesn't sound
like a real language.
Vinny Burgoo
>In alt.usage.english, James Hogg wrote:
>
>>> Leida, Portuguese for Leiden
>>> Valence, French for Valencia
>>> Lontoo, Finnish for London
>>> Rim, Croatian for Rome
>>> Rom, Danish for Rome
>>
>>Aken, Dutch for Aachen
>
>Four accepted (and spotted) by the Panel. 'Rom' is a self-duplicate.
Five, not four.
--
VB
T. O. Innumerator
Vinny Burgoo
>On 2011-08-25 20:34:07 +0200, Vinny Burgoo <hlu...@yahoo.co.uk> said:
>> In alt.usage.english, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>> On the other hand I feel sure some language must call Lleida Leida.
>>>Catalan has an enthusiasm for starting words with Ll that even the
>>>Welsh must envy, but it's not shared by most other languages (even
>>>Castilian, which uses ll much less than Catalan does). However, the
>>>only page that I can find that uses Leida for Lleida makes it look
>>>more like a misspelling than an exonym.
>>> Got it! Aragonese spells it Leida (and as it's pretty darn close to
>>>Aragon their opinion should carry some weight!).
>> Aragonese? The Panel has rooms full of humble, dedicated and skilled
>>Googlers (on at least the minimum wage, honest) but I doubt that even
>>they can find 'Leida' meaning 'Lleida' in Aragonese.
>> Proof, please.
>
>This makes me wonder how the Panel went about their work in devising
>the question. I assumed that they did what I did: (1) notice (or
>deliberately introduce) the string "leida"; (2) think it might be an
>exonym for Lleida in some language; (3) go to the Wikipedia page for
>Lleida; (4) check all the different versions in turn (you don't need to
>open the actual pages, as mousing over the names of the language gives
>you the name in that language as a tooltip).
Good grief! So it does.
> I'd have got there quicker if I'd actually gone in order, as Aragonese
>is the first (apart from Arabic) on the list, but I made the mistake of
>going to ones I thought likely first, but nearly all of them call it
>Lleida, or they call it something based on the Castilian Lérida.
>
>Incidentally, you asked elsethread if most people in Catalonia speak
>Catalan (to which I answered yes, at least they do outside Barcelona),
>but another important point is that Lleida is the official Spanish
>name. The Castilian article says "Lérida (en catalán y oficialmente
>Lleida) es una ciudad española...", and I think that probably reflects
>the legal reality.
Then definitely an exonym, however defined. The first not spotted by the
Panel.
--
VB
T. O. Panellist
Mike Barnes
>As far as I recall I've only once heard Occitan spoken, and that was
>spoken by an Englishman receiving an honorary degree in Bordeaux, and,
>not surprisingly, he made it sound rather English.
I've heard it a few times in Italy. It sounded quite different from
Italian and Piemontese, both more widely spoken in the locality.
--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England
Mark Brader
>
> The French do, I think. (At least, they call it "Clèves", which would
> be disallowed by the rules.)
R.V. Jones did, in "Most Secret War" (US title "The Wizard War"). Here's
the passage, found using Google Books:
# There, once again, was 'Knickebein'; and 'Kleve' could be the
# west German town that we knew as Cleves, where Anne came from.
# If so the translation would run: 'Cleves Knickebein is confirmed
# (or established) at position 53° 24' north and 1° west.'
# The geographical position referred to was a point in England,
# roughly on the Great North Road a mile or so south of Retford.
Jones was writing this in 1978, about events in 1940.
--
Mark Brader "I can say nothing at this point."
Toronto "Well, you were wrong."
m...@vex.net -- Monty Python's Flying Circus
My text in this article is in the public domain.
R H Draney
>
>On 26/08/2011 03:56, R H Draney wrote:
>> Jeffrey Turner filted:
>>>
>>
>> To put it in the mood?...r
>>
>>
>
>That would be for cows, shirley.
Don't make me go all Glenn Miller on you!...
Is it too late to change my original wisecrack to "to lower its
inhibitions?"...r
R H Draney
>
>On 2011-08-26 05:00:08 +0200, R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> said:
>
>> Fletcherize
>
>W. E. Gladstone (famous for other things as well) had the same idea.
That's why I think we should let Fletcher have this one; there's nothing else
he's going to be remembered for....r
Mike Lyle
<athe...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>On 2011-08-26 02:29:13 +0200, Peter Moylan
><inv...@peter.pmoylan.org.invalid> said:
>
>> musika wrote:
[...]
>>> Turin, Czech for Torino
>>
>> As it happens, it's also English for Torino.
>
>You were there before me! I didn't see this when I posted a few minutes ago.
But I bet the Czechs don't pronounce it "czerin".
--
Mike.
Vinny Burgoo
>It was a dark and stormy night and low clouds, roiling overhead like a
[...]
>Next week: Who won and how.
>===
>
>How many exonyms of European cities can you find in the above? All
>exonyms must use the unaccented 26-letter Latin alphabet. Endonyms can
>be in any alphabet. Cities can't be used twice. Cities can overlap.
>Archaic exonyms (e.g. Leghorn, Cleves) aren't allowed. In each case,
>provide the exonym, a language that uses it, and the endonym or its
>usual English version.
>
>A Cormo for the first to list all exonyms that the Panel knows of in
>the text above. A Touabaire for whoever has listed the greatest number
>of exonyms when the question is closed.
>
>Special bonus: a Cormo for the exonym of a small North American
>community.
Here's the T. O. list:
1 Bruggy (Slovak)/Brugge. 2 Bolonia (Spanish)/Bologna. 3 Lontoo
(Finnish)/London. 4 Ragusa (Italian)/Dubrovnik. 5 Leida
(Portuguese)/Leiden. 6 Boergas (Dutch)/[Burgas]. 7 Flushing
(English)/Vlissingen. 8 Ginebra (Spanish)/[Geneva]. 9 Valence
(French)/Valencia. 10 Rim (Croatian)/Roma. 11 Stambula
(Latvian)/[Istanbul]. 12 Candia (Italian)/[Heraklion]. 13 Dorpat
(German)/Tartu. 14 Tallin (Swedish)/Tallinn. 15 Colonia
(Italian)/[Cologne]. 16 Athen (Danish)/[Athens]. 17 Lisabon
(Croatian)/Lisboa. 18 Bon (Albanian)/Bonn. 19 Gante (Spanish)/Ghent. 20
Anvers (French)/Antwerpen. 21 Efrog (Welsh)/York. 22 Berlim
(Portuguese)/Berlin. 23 Nish (Albanian)/[Nis]. 24 Vilna
(Finnish)/Vilnius. 25 Neapel (German)/Napoli. 26 Mailand
(German)/Milano. 27 Brema (Polish)/Bremen. 28 Berno (Polish)/Bern. 29
Seville (English)/Sevilla. 30 Breslau (German)/Wroclaw. 31 Kleef
(Dutch)/Kleve. 32 Aken (Dutch)/Aachen. 33 Prag (German)/Praha. 34
Grenade (French)/Granada. 35 Vanda (Swedish)/Vantaa. 36 Turin
(English)/Torino. 37 Munique (Portuguese)/[Munich]. 38 Venice
(English)/Venezia. 39 Kil (Albanian)/Kiel. 40 Corinthe
(French)/[Corinth].
Bonus: Beehai, the Navajo name of Dulce, New Mexico.
Cities 35 and 39 weren't spotted. Nor was the bonus. Two cities unknown
to the Panel were spotted: Leida (Lleida/Lerida) and Nis (Nice).
Here is who spotted what (exonyms in no particular order):
James Hogg: 29 plus 1 not spotted by the Panel.
Leida (Leiden), Valence, Lontoo, Rim, Aken, Colonia, Bruggy, Bolonia,
Flushing, Ginebra, Stambula, Candia, Tallin, Lisabon, Gant, Anvers,
Berlim, Vilna, Neapel, Mailand, Berno, Seville, Breslau, Kleef, Prag,
Munique, Turin, Grenade, Nis (Nice), Nis (Nish).
musika: 6.
Ragusa, Dorpat, Athen, Bon, Efrog, Brema.
CDB: 2.
Venice, Corinth.
Athel Cornish-Bowden: 1 plus 1 not spotted by the Panel.
Boergas, Leida (Lleida)
Vinny Burgoo
>This makes me wonder how the Panel went about their work in devising
>the question.
[...]
Most of the manuscript was discovered in a dark and stormy corner of
this website:
<http://neohumanism.org/l/li/list_of_european_cities_with_alternative_nam
es.html>
Jerry Friedman
> ===
> It was a dark and stormy night and low clouds, roiling overhead like a
...
> Next week: Who won and how.
Nobody produced the complete T. O. list. By the Totally Revised
scoring system, James Hogg gets a Touabaire for coming up with the
most exonyms, and CDB, Ray (musika), and Athel Cornish-Bowden get a
Herdwick each for their contributions.
The Totally Official tally is 40. Cities are listed in order of their
mentions in the text: exonym (language)/endonym (or, if the endonym
uses a tricky alphabet, [the usual English version]).
Bonus: Beehai (Navajo)/Dulce, New Mexico.
--
Jerry Friedman, T. O. Copier and Paster