Are shippers dumb?
Jason Collin (REL)
I do not understand these people. Are all shippers newbies or something?
Have they not seen the many interviews with Chris Carter when he clearly
states Mulder and Scully *will not* ever have a romantic relationship,
ever, not even in the last five minutes of the last episode.
Just in case some people where unaware of this *FACT*, I felt I had to
post this message. Also, just the existence of so called shippers
illustrates how the show has gone downhill, tremendously. No longer are
people concerned with the depth and mystery of the mythology, or the
unconventional plots (probably because there aren't any anymore), but
instead these people get excited whenever Mulder touches Scully's hand, or
they exchange a glance.
These glances and touches are what CC gives us nowadays in episodes to
supposedly satisfy us, instead of new and interesting plots, creative
MOTW, and a just plain X-File for M & S to investigate. It seems there
always has to be some gimmick in an episode now. When will Mulder return
to digging up an old X-File from his cabinet, break out the slide
projector, and explain to Scully why they are going somewhere, and end the
conversation with a Mulderism that is actually funny. And of course
Mulder cannot ditch Scully at anytime in an episode, nor can Scully be so
rigidly skeptical.
I added the previous sentences to show that I just don't complain about
the decline of the show, but also offer suggestions on how to improve and
restablish the X-Files to its previous quality.
Jason in the first thing is move the show back to Fridays Tampa
Lee Burwasser
Jason Collin (REL) wrote:
>
> I do not understand these people. Are all shippers newbies or something?
> Have they not seen the many interviews with Chris Carter when he clearly
> states Mulder and Scully *will not* ever have a romantic relationship,
> ever, not even in the last five minutes of the last episode.
They're not dumb, they're tired of being teased. Those two do not act
like comfortable friends. Granted, the Big Tease is consistent with the
plot teases, but 'shippers are less interested in getting plot answers
than in having the characterisation reach closure.
I would probably be classed as an anti-relationshipper myself, because
my advice would be to close out the Tease and have them settle down to a
deep, abiding, nonsexual love. Those who would rather have the Tease
closed out by a clinch have pretty much commandeered the word.
Lee Burwasser lburw...@crs.loc.gov
Landover MD USA
*working stiff--don't blame me for policy*
Cathy
I promise I'm going to shut up after this, but, although I'm not an
active shipper myself (although I'm thinking of joining the ranks to
protest anti-shipper discrimination), I think it's pointless to
criticize them. Just think of shippers as Freudians--whether or not you
want M&S to consummate a sexual relationship, no sane individual can
argue that they don't have a serious libidinal investment in each other.
Whether or not you buy Freud has a lot to do with how "scientific" you
are, or as my psychoanalyst friend would say, whether you're interested
in subjects or objects. What we in fact have in the shipper/anti-shipper
debate is a parallel argument to the one Mulder and Scully have all the
time--hard evidence versus intuition.
So shipper's aren't dumb, they're just Mulders. And we can all take a
lesson from how well Scully and Mulder handle the tension of an ongoing
difference in perspective.
Cathy
dail...@aol.com
>> Also, just the existence of so called shippers
>>illustrates how the show has gone downhill, tremendously.
Oh, that's what happened. Uh, huh...
>> No longer are people concerned with the depth and mystery of the
mythology, >>or the
>>unconventional plots (probably because there aren't any anymore), but
You are saying people are no longer interested in the depth, mystery and
unconventional plots because these things no longer exist. Umm...I'll buy
that.
>>instead these people get excited whenever Mulder touches Scully's hand,
or
>>they exchange a glance.
>>These glances and touches are what CC gives us nowadays in episodes to
>>supposedly satisfy us, instead of new and interesting plots, creative
>>MOTW, and a just plain X-File for M & S to investigate. It seems there
>>always has to be some gimmick in an episode now. When will Mulder
return
>>to digging up an old X-File from his cabinet, break out the slide
>>projector, and explain to Scully why they are going somewhere, and end
the
>>conversation with a Mulderism that is actually funny.
BAD SHIPPERS!!! BAD SHIPPERS!!! It's all your fault...I just KNEW it.
Leave CC alone, you haridans!! He's just trying SO HARD these days to
make a wonderful, chilling, interesting show...and you have hounded him
into chaotic, badly plotted, non-atmospheric mush. Don't you realize how
much CC fears your awesome power over him??
>>I added the previous sentences to show that I just don't complain about
>>the decline of the show, but also offer suggestions on how to improve
and
>>restablish the X-Files to its previous quality.
Brilliant suggestions....just brilli--..ummm..what were they again?
CiCi
Kim Wallace
On Wed, 6 Nov 1996, Jason Collin (REL) wrote:
> I do not understand these people. Are all shippers newbies or something?
How long have you been here?
JC
John A. Coffin
Portia
In <Pine.OSF.3.91.961107...@alcor.concordia.ca> Kim
Actually it *does* seem that the more rabid breed of 'shipper evolved
during Season 3. I don't know if this has anything to do with XF
becoming a mainstream hit during that time. There was certainly
discussion of the potential for M&S romance during Season 2 (can't
speak for Season 1 because I wasn't around), and there was M&S romance
fanfic too. But it wasn't anything like the "you're wrong and I'm
right" attitudes we see now (on both sides).
I find it amusing that some people are so sure that the show is "about"
one particular theme to the exclusion of all else. Some MOTW people
think it's "about" the paranormal and creepy creatures, some arc people
are sure it's "about" international and interplanetary conspiracy, some
'shippers, UST'ers and partnershippers (?) are positive it's "about"
the M&S relationship. CC probably had the first two in mind when
creating the show, but I don't think it matters any longer what he
intended. For me, the beauty of this show is the interplay of all
these aspects.
jillian jinx
Jason Collin (REL) wrote:
>
> I do not understand these people. Are all shippers newbies or something?
> states Mulder and Scully *will not* ever have a romantic relationship,
> ever, not even in the last five minutes of the last episode.
>
> illustrates how the show has gone downhill, tremendously. No longer are
> people concerned with the depth and mystery of the mythology, or the
> unconventional plots (probably because there aren't any anymore), but
> they exchange a glance.
Relationshippers aren't dumb, we just like to have a little fun.
Despite what CC says about mulder and scully never, ever getting
together, we still like to have a little hope. it's fun to talk to
people who do see that m&s care about each other and who like to disect
every little glance. it's kind of like wishing for a christmas present
that you will never get. you know deep down in yr hear that there is
never a chance in hell that you will get it, but it's fun to daydream
and wish.
i don't see why non-relationshippers and relationshippers get in such
fights and posting wars. people get so hung up on which side is right.
for god's sake, it's a tv show. it's meant to entertain! some people
get entertainment out of the 'romance' aspect of the show, and some get
it from the 'plot' part of the show. no matter where you find it, you
obviously enjoy the show, so let's leave it at that. it's just all for
fun, it's not a religion, nor is it a philosophy, so don't take it too
seriously, no matter what side of the line yr on.
jillian jinx
--
********************************************************
"When a man cannot choose, he ceases to be a man".
---A Clockwork Orange
ser...@ptd.net
********************************************************
The Fire and the Rose
In article <Pine.GSO.3.95.961106191441.7353C-100000@brill>, "Jason Collin
(REL)" <jco...@brill.acomp.usf.edu> wrote:
> I do not understand these people. Are all shippers newbies or something?
> Have they not seen the many interviews with Chris Carter when he clearly
> states Mulder and Scully *will not* ever have a romantic relationship,
> ever, not even in the last five minutes of the last episode.
Sure we've seen it. We just don't believe it. (Hi everyone. This is my
first post, but I've been lurking for awhile.)
Why don't we believe it? Because the sexual tension is so blatant, and it
hasn't just appeared recently. In Pilot, she gets (almost) naked in his
room, fergoshsakes. This has been around from the beginning. We're just
getting louder as we get more frustrated. (But we like being frustrated,
so its okay.) CC's just drawing it out until we almost give up. Then, to
re-engage our interest, they will hook up, but under such circumstances
that they'll be able to pretend it didn't happen. Then another Big Tease
(as Lee Burwasser put it), and the cycle restarts. That's my prediction,
anyway.
And why should the impossibility or otherwise of our dreams affect them?
C'mon, this *is* the X-Files.
As for why we want a relationship:
1. It's a tease and we're frustrated.
2. It would be so cute.
3. It would be so cute and yet so imperilled--like two little
gerbils in the middle of a highway.
4. Their world is so terrifying--what else have they got but each
other? Who is ever going to put up with their obsessions and the dangers
they run and the secrets they have to keep but each other? Besides, any
other lover would get (and has gotten) munched in short order. The
X-Files is all about contrast, about a point of light surrounded by
darkness. Love would make the light a little brighter, and the darkness
deeper.
5. You're complaining about the quality of the episodes. I think
what you're complaining about is stagnation. Us Sandman fans know that
there comes a point when you must change or die. The X-Files can't
maintain this tension out of stasis. It has to evolve if it's going to
grow, and it has to grow if it's going to survive. Anti-shippers
sometimes say they don't want a relationship because then the show would
have to end, but I think the opposite. Exploring the ramifications of
love between S&M (yes, I do insist on putting the initials in that order)
would generate new issues for many a future episode. We don't want the
X-Files to become a soap opera; we want the action to be primary. But
*something* has to change soon if the series is going to remain
groundbreaking.
--
And all shall be well and
All manner of thing shall be well
When the tongues of flame are in-folded
Into the crowned knot of fire
And the fire and the rose are one. --T.S. Eliot, "Little Gidding"
Portia
In <55rfe8$2...@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> Cathy <Sil...@indiana.edu>
writes:
<snippage to get to the profound part faster>
>What we in fact have in the shipper/anti-shipper
>debate is a parallel argument to the one Mulder and Scully have all
the time--hard evidence versus intuition.
>
>So shipper's aren't dumb, they're just Mulders.
I like your analogy, Silver. I guess that would make me a Scully with
occasional Mulder tendencies.
I see a lot of parallels between M&S and "romantic" fiction. If we
see Scully as the protagonist/heroine, she is a strong and intelligent
woman thrown into a situation with a troubled, mysterious, obviously
very attractive man. His feelings are difficult to read and he tends
to treat her badly at times, but there are hints that he might be madly
in love with her. Some external or internal force prevents him from
declaring his love. This sounds like a Harlequin romance or a bodice
ripper, but it also describes Rochester and Jane Eyre (who/what is the
madwoman in Mulder's attic?), Cathy and Heathcliff, and other classics
which don't spring to mind at this late hour. My point is that the
'shipper perspective is understandable, and in fact is virtually
socialized into women's psyches in western culture. I think that's
where the vehemence comes in -- you know how the damn book is supposed
to end, but CC says he won't follow the formula.
Footnote to male 'shippers: your point is well taken but I'm
pontificating in generalities. I don't mean *only* women.
Mark Rajesh Das
Jason Collin (REL) (jco...@brill.acomp.usf.edu) wrote:
: I do not understand these people. Are all shippers newbies or something?
: Have they not seen the many interviews with Chris Carter when he clearly
: states Mulder and Scully *will not* ever have a romantic relationship,
: ever, not even in the last five minutes of the last episode.
Carter can fuck with yer mind. Not saying he will, not saying he won't
but saying he can. Secondly, some of these folks love playing the
"what it" game. There's a whole section of what-if short stories
in the Sci-fi genre so it's not a stretch of the imagination that
some people will play that game here.
: Just in case some people where unaware of this *FACT*, I felt I had to
: post this message. Also, just the existence of so called shippers
: illustrates how the show has gone downhill, tremendously. No longer are
: people concerned with the depth and mystery of the mythology, or the
: unconventional plots (probably because there aren't any anymore), but
: instead these people get excited whenever Mulder touches Scully's hand, or
: they exchange a glance.
Your second sentence doesn't follow.
Secondly, it is possible to like the show on two or more levels.
For instance, I like the story and the conspiracy idea, but I also
look for the shaping of Mulder as an obsessed-genius. Whenever I catch
glimpses of his character (From Grotesque esp) I'm a happy camper.
: These glances and touches are what CC gives us nowadays in episodes to
: supposedly satisfy us, instead of new and interesting plots, creative
: MOTW, and a just plain X-File for M & S to investigate. It seems there
: always has to be some gimmick in an episode now. When will Mulder return
: to digging up an old X-File from his cabinet, break out the slide
: projector, and explain to Scully why they are going somewhere, and end the
: conversation with a Mulderism that is actually funny. And of course
: Mulder cannot ditch Scully at anytime in an episode, nor can Scully be so
: rigidly skeptical.
Ah, now I see how your second sentence in the last P connects.
I'll have to agree with this part, at least in part. However, the point
was made (and a good point it be) that you're not allowing for the
characters to change. You want static characters, unchanging in their
ways.
: I added the previous sentences to show that I just don't complain about
: the decline of the show, but also offer suggestions on how to improve and
: restablish the X-Files to its previous quality.
return to the original concept. They didn't take this route. I say
they could have made the transition smoother and slower, but inevitably
something's gotta change.
: Jason in the first thing is move the show back to Fridays Tampa
Absolutely. Sundays aren't the same, but in a bad way.
"TM"
LISA LOISELLE
In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.96110...@alcor.concordia.ca>,
John A. Coffin <k_wa...@alcor.concordia.ca> wrote:
>
>On Wed, 6 Nov 1996, Jason Collin (REL) wrote:
>
>> I do not understand these people. Are all shippers newbies or something?
>
>
>JC
Not very long... I've never seen the sig before. So speaking of
newbies... AND most newbies are wayyy more polite, so no newbie-insults
allowed.
And *I* hope *you* either unsubscribe or learn to express your views in a
less volatile way. I think we're all happy to hear what anyone has to
say as long as it is not rude or insulting to any one person or group.
Lisa
... so blow me, why doncha? :)
Michelle Rainer
In article <Pine.GSO.3.95.961106191441.7353C-100000@brill>, "Jason Collin
> I do not understand these people. Are all shippers newbies or something?
> Have they not seen the many interviews with Chris Carter when he clearly
> states Mulder and Scully *will not* ever have a romantic relationship,
> ever, not even in the last five minutes of the last episode.
Actually CC has said a lot of things. Following a statement like that he's
said something along the lines of "anything can happen". Truth be told, I
think he just likes playing around with us all. That kind of statement
could antagonise both 'shippers and anti-shippers.
No, shippers are not 'all newbies or something'. I am a proud shipper, and
I have been watching from the beginning.:-)
> Just in case some people where unaware of this *FACT*, I felt I had to
> post this message. Also, just the existence of so called shippers
> illustrates how the show has gone downhill, tremendously. No longer are
> people concerned with the depth and mystery of the mythology, or the
> unconventional plots (probably because there aren't any anymore), but
> instead these people get excited whenever Mulder touches Scully's hand, or
> they exchange a glance.
'These people' as a matter of fact *do* care about the episodes and *all*
they entail, not just exchanging a glance or a touching of hands.
Puh-lease! I think that by saying that the show has gone downhill because
people are no longer concerned with the plots is a gross misjudgement. How
can a group of fans who you say are more interested in the UST moments
affect the show? Fans don't write the show! Are you a 'newbie' by any
chance?! <g>
Shippers are fans. Anti-shippers are fans. We're all fans. Fans and their
dedication to watching the show, gives XF it's ratings and ensures the
show keeps on airing. *all* fans are important. Does it make any
difference whether they are shippers or not?
> These glances and touches are what CC gives us nowadays in episodes to
> supposedly satisfy us, instead of new and interesting plots, creative
> MOTW, and a just plain X-File for M & S to investigate. It seems there
> always has to be some gimmick in an episode now. When will Mulder return
> to digging up an old X-File from his cabinet, break out the slide
> projector, and explain to Scully why they are going somewhere, and end the
> conversation with a Mulderism that is actually funny. And of course
> Mulder cannot ditch Scully at anytime in an episode, nor can Scully be so
> rigidly skeptical.
>
> I added the previous sentences to show that I just don't complain about
> the decline of the show, but also offer suggestions on how to improve and
> restablish the X-Files to its previous quality.
Well as for the nature and content of the eps themselves, you'd have to
ask CC that one. Maybe Mulder's moved on past the slideshow phase, who
knows? ;-) Different writers, different perceptions of what a good X-File
is.
> Jason in the first thing is move the show back to Fridays Tampa
Jaedd
John A. Coffin
On 7 Nov 1996 dail...@aol.com wrote:
> >>I added the previous sentences to show that I just don't complain about
> >>the decline of the show, but also offer suggestions on how to improve
> >>and restablish the X-Files to its previous quality.
>
> Brilliant suggestions....just brilli--..ummm..what were they again?
To return the show to Friday. I guess that's only one, and not a very
good one because the show does still show in some parts of the world on
Friday, and the results coming back are equally divided. LL and I both
hail from a CFCF12 region and I believe (from the posts I read) that she
is a shipper who didn't enjoy this show while I'm a non-shipper who
did...go figure.
JC
Pamela T. Pon
I've been wanting to remind everyone of this particular CC quote for some
time now. This seems an appropriate followup in which to include it ...
[drum roll] ... wait for it ...
Jason Collin (REL) <jco...@brill.acomp.usf.edu> wrote:
>I do not understand these people. Are all shippers newbies or something?
>Have they not seen the many interviews with Chris Carter when he clearly
>states Mulder and Scully *will not* ever have a romantic relationship,
>ever, not even in the last five minutes of the last episode.
Um, I don't think he's absolutely ruled out the last five minutes of the
last episode (or last movie). At any point *during* the series, yes.
But at the absolute end of the series, he's said that "anything can happen."
Whenever the "it will NEVER happen" quotes are flying thick and fast,
I can always amuse myself by remembering what CC said at a con I attended
(probably the 2-11-96 San Francisco one?):
... an audience member with a whole lotta chutzpah asked what was
gonna happen in the *final* episode of THE X-FILES. The following is what I
remember Carter replying, though the exact words may have been slightly
different -- except for the relevant phrase in quotation marks, which I
know is EXACTLY what he said (since it is *burned forever* in my memory):
CC: Mulder and Scully will find Samantha -- and then they'll
"jump each other's bones!"
Just another extreme possibility to keep in mind. >;-) >;-) >;-)
>Just in case some people where unaware of this *FACT*, I felt I had to
>post this message. Also, just the existence of so called shippers
>illustrates how the show has gone downhill, tremendously.
In that case it's been going downhill since the moment Scully walked into
that basement office for the first time ... because that's when the
relationship -- with or without UST -- began. Shippers have been around
since day one.
All I want is UST, not RST ...
**** pamela pon p...@best.com (very behind on e-mail; please *post* replies)
Save DUE SOUTH * Write CBS: 7800 Beverly Blvd, Los Angeles CA 90036
Save SPACE: ABOVE & BEYOND * Write FOX: Box 900, Beverly Hills CA 90213
**** Ride Forever ***** Do or Die ***** Thank you kindly ***** SEMPER FI ****
catherine yronwode
LISA LOISELLE <l_l...@alcor.concordia.ca> wrote:
>
> John A. Coffin <k_wa...@alcor.concordia.ca> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> I do not understand these people. Are all shippers newbies or
> >> something?
> >
>
> newbies...
I agree -- "Jason Collin (REL)" is not a sig i recognize, and i have
been here many moons.
Let's discuss the issue, though, shall we: Are shippers "dumb"? Are they
"newbies"?
The term "shippers" came up in season 3, during the "rift."
The "rift" was a patch of bad charcter writing (not necessarily bad plot
writing) in season 3 that resulted from Morgan and Wong being gone and a
batch of new writers being hired to do one-shots. The result was that we
got a run of stories in which new writers tried to keep the
"Scully=skeptic/Mulder=believer" characterizations alive by having the
characters snipe at each other and squabble all the time. For a while it
looked like a "new direction" for the series, and a lot of folks hated
it -- now it seems to have just been a coincidence of the new writers
and the order in which the episodes were shown.
During "the rift," we never saw Mulder and Scully touch each other.
There was no UST (unresolved sexual tension) between the characters.
Mulder's previous continual reflexive grooming gestures towrd Scully
(one of the character's most endearing traits, in part because it spoke
of his longing for the missing sibling Sammantha) disappeared. Instead
of Scully and Mulder teasing each other, we got them fighting. Scully's
former criticisms of Mulder's "gullibility" turned into querelous
bitching. And we saw Scully jealous of other women. The latter was not a
bad thing in the context of the series, but it was very unfortunate in
the context of the third season "rift" because there was no reciprocity.
We NEVER saw Mulder jealous of Scully's male associates because she had
none. Parity was lost. Scully had UST for Mulder, but he no longer had
it for her. Not only did he not groom her, she seemed to be a "scorned
woman."
Anyway, objections to "the rift" caused a lot of folks in the newsgroup
to polarize their thinking, so instead of discussing UST, as we had
previously, we found ourselves in two camps: relationshippers versus
anti-relationshippers. During the flame war that erupted, anybody who
openly admitted to enjoying the show's pre-rift UST was virtually
guaranteed to be labelled a "shipper," and some accepted the term, with
more or less good grace.
Most of the anti-shipper venom (and i mean venom, not discussion; venom
like that of "Jason Collin (REL)") seems to have come from young men
("Jason Collin (REL)" posts from the University of Southern Florida and
is probably a student). These people tend to see the X-Files as
"Mulder's story," not the story of Scully and Mulder. They certainly
don't see it as "Scully's story." To them, Mulder is a hero only insofar
as he remains free of female involvement and committment. In promoting
their viewpoint, they would even de-sex Mulder so that his touching and
grooming of Scully was shorn of sexual connotiations. This probably
reflects their own life experiences. Their youth may be unconsciously
revealed in the frequency with which they use words like "dumb" and
"brainless" to describe folks with whom they disagreee. It may also be
seen in their utter ignorance of normal social intercourse as perceived
by those of us (both young and old) who see in Mulder's touching and
grooming gestures a measurable level of conscious or unconscious sexual
desire toward Scully, whether or not that desire will ever culminate in
sexual intimacy.
Revelations about Gillian Anderson's low pay rate compared to David
Duchovny's, rumours that the producers are willing to ditch the Scully
character if she asks for equal pay, and CC's adamant statements that
there will never be a sexual liaison between the characters all seem to
point to the notion that CC is himself writing what he sees as "Mulder's
story," and that he considers Scully (and Anderson the actress)
non-essential to the show. He may be writing the series by drawing upon
a youthful, anti-female part of his own life experience. He may see a
de-sexed Mulder as a "free" Mulder, one who can collect video porn and
drool over random female characters without the threat of a "killjoy"
serious relationship with Scully ruining his opportunities to "score."
Of course, not all male viewers (and very few female viewers) see Scully
as a negative quantity or an expendable character. This newsgroup hosts
regular discussions about Scully as a strong female lead...although such
posts have become rarer since her character has been written with
increasing shrillness and lack of sexiness. One male friend of mine --
48 years old, twice married, the father of a college-age daughter --
told me today (and i note the fact because he is a rabid X-Files fan but
does not post to this newsgroup): "They're turning Scully into a nagging
shrew and it's a shame, because she was such a refreshing character. I
liked the way she and Mulder used to goof around with each other, but
they've tossed all of that out now." This guy is not a "shipper," but he
likes Scully and he misses the old UST, even though he didn't have a
name for it like we do.
In a sense, the UST Mulder felt for Scully was a measure of the writers'
(and Mulder's) respect for Scully's worth. Rather than being a merely
reactive fetch-and-carry helper or a faithful sidekick, she was Mulder's
intellectual and on-the-job equal, and his side of the UST-parity was
his acknowledgement of her sexual worth as well.
With "The Field Where I Died," CC and Morgan and Wong seem to have
discarded ALL elements of the "tease" of UST. If the X-Files is
"Mulder's story" and if Mulder believes that "souls mate eternal," and
that he lost his soul-mate for this lifetime when Melissa committed
suicide, then there is no more point in developing UST between him and
Scully -- it would just be a reflexive gesture from a shallow,
skirt-chasing Mulder and would have no personal import for Scully at
all.
"The Field Where I Died" has alientated a large part of the UST and
"shipper" contingent in this newsgroup and sent a some of the rest into
denial ("it was all Mulder's fantasy") -- but even their denial cannot
undo the damage, because if the X-Files is about what Mulder believes
and if he believes he's lost his "eternal" soul-mate, well, that's that.
No more UST, much less a "relationship."
I hope that someone connected with the show is reading the many comments
that have appeared in the group lately...because it looks to me as if
the boat is capsizing and people are ready to jump "ship" to some other
show that will give them a science fiction or horror or UFO theme --
plus a strong yet friendly female character who is sexually desired (if
not bedded) by her male partner. The name of the patch that will keep
the old canoe afloat is not "relationship," it is "UST" -- and a word to
the wise should be sufficent.
cat
catherine yronwode * mailto:c...@luckymojo.com * http://www.luckymojo.com
* Lucky W Amulet Archive * The Sacred Landscape * Karezza and Tantra *
for discussions about folkloric magic, ask your ISP for news:alt.lucky.w
madse004
In article <01bbcddf$fa45cc60$461e...@devel1.Psychology.Dal.Ca>,
alan...@demosys.gcomm.com wrote:
> Jason Collin (REL) <jco...@brill.acomp.usf.edu> wrote in article
> <Pine.GSO.3.95.961106191441.7353C-100000@brill>...
> snipp....
> >
> > I added the previous sentences to show that I just don't complain about
> > the decline of the show, but also offer suggestions on how to improve
> and
> > restablish the X-Files to its previous quality.
>
> And thank you very much for that. I'm sure
> Mr. Carter will be oh so grateful for your
> advice. Have you considered popping over
> to Ireland and giving Roddy Doyle some
> suggestions for his next novel?
> --
> Alan Hurshman
> (who can never remember the sarcasn emoticon)
> Halifax, Nova Scotia
Thank you for the "Roddy" of Mr. Doyle--for some reason I get "Roddy"
mixed-up with "Paddy Clarke, ha, ha, ha" and it comes out Paddy Doyle (not
that you probably care, but I feel like such a dope sometime!) The real
reason I am replying to this? Suggested emoticon for tongue-in-cheek, aka
sarcasm :-@
Thank you for bearing with my drivel-
Doc Aay
Alyssa Fernandez
catherine yronwode wrote (snipped a bit for brevity):
> This newsgroup hosts
> regular discussions about Scully as a strong female lead...although such
> posts have become rarer since her character has been written with
> increasing shrillness and lack of sexiness. One male friend of mine > told me today ... "They're turning Scully into a nagging
> shrew and it's a shame, because she was such a refreshing character. I
> liked the way she and Mulder used to goof around with each other, but
> they've tossed all of that out now."
I agree with the pro-Scully sentiment here, but not with the assessment
that she has become shrill, unsexy, or a shrew. Look at season 4 so
far: in Herrenvolk, she took on the Bounty Hunter pretty much
single-handedly; in Home, we had the conversation on the bench and
Mulder looked at her, apparently for the first time, as a mother (and
presumably a woman); and in Teliko, she saved our beloved Moose's
drooling hide. Unruhe, I grant you, was not a great vehicle for Scully;
but, despite the Mulder-centric plot of FWID, her "Flukeman" line was
the humorous highlight.
There has not been much goofing around so far, I grant you, but IMHO
that's because (with the exception of "Home") the 4th season episodes
have been short on humor in general--lacking not just Scullyisms, but
Mulderisms, too. You may see this as an effort to neuter Scully, but
it's not as if Mulder has been wowing other women lately with his studly
displays of droll charm. NOBODY has been funny. Instead the emphasis
has been on drama and darker themes. I think it just says that we could
use Darrin Morgan right now (and explains why FOX wisely chose to re-run
WotC when it did).
> I hope that someone connected with the show is reading the many comments
> that have appeared in the group lately...because it looks to me as if
> the boat is capsizing and people are ready to jump "ship" to some other
> show that will give them a science fiction or horror or UFO theme --
> plus a strong yet friendly female character who is sexually desired (if
> not bedded) by her male partner. The name of the patch that will keep
> the old canoe afloat is not "relationship," it is "UST" -- and a word to
> the wise should be sufficent.
Again, I'm with you half of the way. I agree--TOTALLY agree--with your
pro-UST sentiment. But I am not about to jump ship, and expect that
most other 'philes aren't, either. I trust that Scully's turn in the
lime-light will come and that humor will make a strong come-back in the
very near future. That's part of the appeal of X-Files: it can serve
up angst and torture one week, then give you humor and spookiness the
next.
Vive la UST,
Alyssa
grav...@aol.com
<<As for why we want a relationship:
1. It's a tease and we're frustrated.>>
Boy, you ain't kiddin'! :)
<< 2. It would be so cute. >>
Stunning is the word I'd use, but cute will work because next you
write.....
<< 3. It would be so cute and yet so imperilled--like two little
gerbils in the middle of a highway.>>
Bwahahahahaha! I'm picturing this. Delicious metaphor!!!!
<< 4. Their world is so terrifying--what else have they got but each
other? Who is ever going to put up with their obsessions and the dangers
they run and the secrets they have to keep but each other? Besides, any
other lover would get (and has gotten) munched in short order. The
X-Files is all about contrast, about a point of light surrounded by
darkness. Love would make the light a little brighter, and the darkness
deeper.>>
Beautifully put---evil isn't nearly as frightening when it isn't
threatening something you love...
<< 5. You're complaining about the quality of the episodes. I think
what you're complaining about is stagnation. Us Sandman fans know that
there comes a point when you must change or die. The X-Files can't
maintain this tension out of stasis. It has to evolve if it's going to
grow, and it has to grow if it's going to survive. Anti-shippers
sometimes say they don't want a relationship because then the show would
have to end, but I think the opposite. Exploring the ramifications of
love between S&M (yes, I do insist on putting the initials in that order)
would generate new issues for many a future episode. We don't want the
X-Files to become a soap opera; we want the action to be primary. But
*something* has to change soon if the series is going to remain
groundbreaking.>>
Really!!! I can't believe that The X-Files---the so-called bastion of
"out there" would subscribe to a hackneyed bit of conventional wisdom such
as "if the leads get together, it would ruin the show." How would anyone
know? Just about all the shows everyone cites as bad examples used
"resolution" of the UST in a last ditch effort to save a dying show---or
else they stretched and mangled the tease to the point of absurdity. And
besides, if sexual tension ISN'T the focus of The X-Files, as we're always
told, then why would resolving the tension be so detrimental? The other
tension, the tension that drives the plot, is the conflict between the
empiricist and the intuitor. And that conflict may never be
solved---hallelujah!
Paula G.
Alan Hurshman
Simonfeld
>
>The term "shippers" came up in season 3, during the "rift."
>
>The "rift" was a patch of bad charcter writing (not necessarily bad
plot
>writing) in season 3 that resulted from Morgan and Wong being gone and
a
>batch of new writers being hired to do one-shots. The result was that
we
>got a run of stories in which new writers tried to keep the
>"Scully=skeptic/Mulder=believer" characterizations alive by having the
>characters snipe at each other and squabble all the time. For a while
it
>looked like a "new direction" for the series, and a lot of folks hated
>it -- now it seems to have just been a coincidence of the new writers
>and the order in which the episodes were shown.
You know, I didn't even notice a "rift" while watching the third
season until the week between "Piper Maru" and "Apocrypha", when
somebody TOLD ME about it. It was at a convention, and all these people
were screeching at Chris Carter about some "rift" and how he's ruined
the show (which came as a shock to me, because the third season had
been the best so far IMO).
I talked to a lot of people at that convention who said the third
season sucked because of The Rift. That's exactly why I don't like
shippers: many of them will just pan an episode unless it has some
out-of-place, useless,
we-just-put-this-in-here-to-make-the-shippers-happy Mulder and Scully
talking/touching/smiling scene (leading many shippers to praise
"Quagmire" and "Home" but dump on "D.P.O" and "The Walk"). It doesn't
matter how ingenious an episode was, how intense the effects or story
were, how well the guest stars performed, etc. It just matters if the
two agents held hands or smiled at each other. I'm not saying all
shippers are like that, of course; many of them are above that. But
still, the vast majority seem to have that sort of mindset. It wouldn't
be so bad, except that they seem to be *everywhere* on the web. :)
>During "the rift," we never saw Mulder and Scully touch each other.
>There was no UST (unresolved sexual tension) between the characters.
>Mulder's previous continual reflexive grooming gestures towrd Scully
>(one of the character's most endearing traits, in part because it
spoke
>of his longing for the missing sibling Sammantha) disappeared. Instead
>of Scully and Mulder teasing each other, we got them fighting.
Scully's
>former criticisms of Mulder's "gullibility" turned into querelous
>bitching. And we saw Scully jealous of other women. The latter was not
a
>bad thing in the context of the series, but it was very unfortunate in
>the context of the third season "rift" because there was no
reciprocity.
I didn't notice any of this, except for "Syzygy" (did I spell that
right? :). But I don't see why it should affect the quality of an
episode if Mulder doesn't exchange a long, endearing look w/ Scully or
hold her hand. There was none of that in "Conduit", and that remains a
classic episode of The X-Files.
>
>Most of the anti-shipper venom (and i mean venom, not discussion;
This isn't meant to be venom at all, BTW. Just a comment.
But when you said that the rift developed from new writers bad
interpretations of the characters, I was puzzled. I've heard the rift
started in "Oubliette" and melted away in "Pusher". Now, 7 of the
episodes in between those 2 were written by the veterans (CC, Howard
Gordon, Frank Spotnitz, and Darin Morgan [well, Darin Morgan is more
like an all-star rookie]). 2 of them were written by first-timers.
Cindy Benson
Just my two cents...
No longer are
> > people concerned with the depth and mystery of the mythology, or the
> > unconventional plots (probably because there aren't any anymore), but
> > instead these people get excited whenever Mulder touches Scully's hand,
or
> > they exchange a glance.
Well, is it just me or does anyone else feel there's something unnatural
with the way these two behave? I mean how can two people work together so
closely and so intensely that NOTHING EVER happens? I'm not saying a quick
roll in the hay or anything, but it looks to me like they're trying too
hard not to get together! It just doesn't seem natural to me.
Like when the show ends in a very emotional state, sometimes a hug is
called for. Even if they were two women or two men! Nothing romantic, just
out of sheer relief to still be alive! Is that too much to ask for?
----
Cindy
oldham
On Fri, 8 Nov 1996, catherine yronwode wrote:
> The term "shippers" came up in season 3, during the "rift."
>
> The "rift" was a patch of bad charcter writing (not necessarily bad plot
> writing) in season 3 that resulted from Morgan and Wong being gone and a
> batch of new writers being hired to do one-shots. The result was that we
This is exactly what I thought. It seemed liked last season, however,
that the producers did not want to admit this; they were "unaware" of any
rift and did not see problems in the characters' development. they
wanted to believe
that any writers could write for these characters - going along with CC
admonition that the emphasis of the show was supposed to be almost
totally on "scary" stories. What these episodes lacked were the
consistent character development, which can only happen with the same
group of writers.
>
> Most of the anti-shipper venom (and i mean venom, not discussion; venom
> like that of "Jason Collin (REL)") seems to have come from young men
> ("Jason Collin (REL)" posts from the University of Southern Florida and
> is probably a student). These people tend to see the X-Files as
> "Mulder's story," not the story of Scully and Mulder. They certainly
Agreed!
> Of course, not all male viewers (and very few female viewers) see Scully
> as a negative quantity or an expendable character. This newsgroup hosts
> regular discussions about Scully as a strong female lead...although such
> posts have become rarer since her character has been written with
> increasing shrillness and lack of sexiness. One male friend of mine --
>
Didn;t the xf have at one point one or two women writers? Do they have
any now?
If I were Scully I would be a little tired of picking up after Mulder
-
this season's opener was the worst. He leaves her to an unknown fate at
the hands of the alien, while he trots off with Jeremiah Smith - even if
he was so obsessed with finding his sister wouldn';t he have been the
least bit curious about what happened to Scully
Of course, this follows along with this being "Mulder's" story, not
Scully's. Wouldn't every guy like someone like this - to be their
unquestioning pal, cleaning up after them after their escapades?
> In a sense, the UST Mulder felt for Scully was a measure of the writers'
> (and Mulder's) respect for Scully's worth. Rather than being a merely
> reactive fetch-and-carry helper or a faithful sidekick, she was Mulder's
> intellectual and on-the-job equal, and his side of the UST-parity was
> his acknowledgement of her sexual worth as well.
The best explanation of this whole ying/yang this between them.
> cat
>
>
>
Carolyn
catherine yronwode
monfeld wrote:
> But when you said that the rift developed from new writers bad
> interpretations of the characters, I was puzzled. I've heard the rift
> started in "Oubliette" and melted away in "Pusher". Now, 7 of the
> episodes in between those 2 were written by the veterans (CC, Howard
> Gordon, Frank Spotnitz, and Darin Morgan [well, Darin Morgan is more
> like an all-star rookie]). 2 of them were written by first-timers.
I wrote that, but i am not a "shipper" and i was merely trying to
explain the term "the rift," not endorse the concept. I know little
about what the majority of folks define as "the rift," so go easy on me,
okay?
I never thought of "Oubliettte" as a "rift" story. Far from it! Mulder's
pain was certainly felt by Scully -- and the dialgogue about "not
eerything is related to your sister" was a beautiful example of their
near-perfect understanding of each other.
"Syzygy" was the "riftiest" story of the third season -- and you are
right -- it was written by CC.
In short, i seem to be wrong in attributing the "rift" to "new" writers
-- but i stand by my statement that it was a coincidence of the filming
and broadcast order of the episodes, not a planned "new direction" for
the series.
Others have opined that CC is very bad at writing Mulder-Scully UST
scenes and that Morgan and Wong do it best. That idea gained credibility
with the "conversation on the bench" in the otherwise dismal "Home" --
but M&W also wrote "TFWID" -- which is the antithesis of UST and in afct
knocks UST in the head and buries it.
For me, the problem comes down to a lack of continuity editing. There
should be a story editor reviewing all the episodes before they are
filmed and commenting on whether or not they are consistent in terms of
characterization (e.g. Mulder and Scully's relationship) or plotting
(e.g. Cancerman as a Gestapo soldier). I assume such a job description
exists and that someone is drawing pay for the work -- but he or she is
incompetent. The series is suffering because of this.
JS Michel
catherine yronwode wrote:
(some good stuff snipped)
>
> "The Field Where I Died" has alientated a large part of the UST and
> "shipper" contingent in this newsgroup and sent a some of the rest into
> denial ("it was all Mulder's fantasy") -- but even their denial cannot
> undo the damage, because if the X-Files is about what Mulder believes
> and if he believes he's lost his "eternal" soul-mate, well, that's that.
> No more UST, much less a "relationship."
>
> I hope that someone connected with the show is reading the many comments
> that have appeared in the group lately...because it looks to me as if
> the boat is capsizing and people are ready to jump "ship" to some other
> show that will give them a science fiction or horror or UFO theme --
> plus a strong yet friendly female character who is sexually desired (if
> not bedded) by her male partner. The name of the patch that will keep
> the old canoe afloat is not "relationship," it is "UST" -- and a word to
> the wise should be sufficent.
I liked TFWID, though I can see why others didn't. In any case, I'm sure
that someone connected with the show has at least heard of the net
reaction. Though they're probably baffled at what was probably a totally
unexpected response, I'll bet they're not that worried, and with good
cause. Simply stated, there have been lots of episodes in the past that
sparked violent response, and TFWID won't be the last. People hollered
about jumping ship after "Syzygy" but if they did, it sure had little
impact on the ratings. I'd bet money on the fact that the same will
happen here, especially in light of the fact that I doubt very much
that Mulder's "soulmate" belief will carry over into other episodes.
I'd be surprised if it was ever mentioned again, though I wouldn't mind
if it were just so we could be enlightened as to what his final conclusion
was regarding the whole Melissa/Sarah business.
I'm sure the UST will be back, and few people will be discussing FWID in a
few months, just like few people discuss Syzygy anymore despite violent
opposition to its implications to the M&S relationship last season.
-- JS --
dup...@utdallas.edu
> Are all shippers newbies or something?
Because we have a different opinion than you? THAT makes us newbies?
Nice try.
<snip>
> Just in case some people where unaware of this *FACT*, I felt I had to
> post this message.
Why thank you, oh great one. I'm so greatful that you've deigned to
illstrate yourself in such a *polite and well-mannered* post.
<snip>
> Also, just the existence of so called shippers
> illustrates how the show has gone downhill, tremendously.
Oh, right, because there were no 'shippers in the first season <can you
say Tooms?>. They've simply filled the void which Chris Carter and Co.
left when they dumbed down the show, right? Us vacant morons couldn't
understand the show in its heyday, but now that there's no plot . . .?
> No longer are
> people concerned with the depth and mystery of the mythology, or the
> unconventional plots (probably because there aren't any anymore), but
Right, because, again, us 'shippers are inherently stupid, right? God,
you can't even argue one point. Pick a theory and stick with it. The
show's supposed downhill decline is IN NO WAY related to the existance of
'shippers. You've said nothing.
<snip>
If you dislike the idea of Mulder and Scully feeling anything towards
each other but friendship, don't read 'shipper posts. People watch the
same show for different reasons, none any more valid than another. In
short, if you think the X-Files sucks this season, don't watch it. But
don't try to someone link that with the existance of 'shippers, cause
you're just making yourself look mighty stupid.
Danielle
--
~~~~~~~~~~~Danielle A. Dupre'~~~~~~~~~dup...@utdallas.edu~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely
rearranging their prejudices."
--William James
para...@aol.com
First of all, that Jason guy just needs to be ignored. He was baiting.
You guys KNOW he was baiting. He's a fool.
<<The "rift" was a patch of bad charcter writing (not necessarily bad plot
writing) in season 3 that resulted from Morgan and Wong being gone and a
batch of new writers being hired to do one-shots.>>
I'm a little unclear as to how bad character writing can exist without bad
plotting. In good writing, they should go hand in hand. And forgive me,
but even though it's been explained to me like I'm two-years-old, I still
fail to see the rift. Is there some rift gene I'm missing?
<<During "the rift," we never saw Mulder and Scully touch each other.
There was no UST (unresolved sexual tension) between the characters.>>
UST exists. It can't be turned on and off. In some situations, when
they're being shot at, for example, or when Moose is jumping onto a boxcar
and dropping his phone, UST will fade slightly into the woodwork. But it
will always exist.
<<Mulder's previous continual reflexive grooming gestures towrd Scully
(one of the character's most endearing traits, in part because it spoke
of his longing for the missing sibling Sammantha) disappeared. Instead
of Scully and Mulder teasing each other, we got them fighting.>>
Uh. The characters are affected by the situations. The characters react
to the situations. The characters learn from the situations. The status
quo of happy Moose and Squirrel cannot always exist. In order for the
characters to grow, they must challenge themselves and each other and push
the boundaries.
<<Most of the anti-shipper venom (and i mean venom, not discussion; venom
like that of "Jason Collin (REL)") seems to have come from young men
("Jason Collin (REL)" posts from the University of Southern Florida and
is probably a student). These people tend to see the X-Files as
"Mulder's story," not the story of Scully and Mulder. They certainly
don't see it as "Scully's story.">>
This is the most ludicrous thing I've read (until I got to the next
paragraph). Anybody can plainly see that we see the show through Scully's
eyes. It is her arc that determines (or should determine, there has been
a bit of derailing here) the dirrection of the series. Mulder and Scully
are the protagonists but it is Scully who is the true protagonist. We
learn from her and through her actions. We learn along with Scully more
often than we learn along with Mulder. This is simple fact, NOT opinion.
<< To them, Mulder is a hero only insofar
as he remains free of female involvement and committment. In promoting
their viewpoint, they would even de-sex Mulder so that his touching and
grooming of Scully was shorn of sexual connotiations. This probably
reflects their own life experiences. Their youth may be unconsciously
revealed in the frequency with which they use words like "dumb" and
"brainless" to describe folks with whom they disagreee. It may also be
seen in their utter ignorance of normal social intercourse as perceived
by those of us (both young and old) who see in Mulder's touching and
grooming gestures a measurable level of conscious or unconscious sexual
desire toward Scully, whether or not that desire will ever culminate in
sexual intimacy. >>
Hoo-boy!! What a hoot! It's quite obvious that you just want to piss off
a good majority of the community with this statement. Lord knows you
couldn't truly believe this.
<<Revelations about Gillian Anderson's low pay rate compared to David
Duchovny's, rumours that the producers are willing to ditch the Scully
character if she asks for equal pay, and CC's adamant statements that
there will never be a sexual liaison between the characters all seem to
point to the notion that CC is himself writing what he sees as "Mulder's
story," and that he considers Scully (and Anderson the actress)
non-essential to the show.>>
Point: Male actors make more money on average than female actors.
Understand? As for CC seeing the show as Mulder's story...he obviously
identifies more with Mulder (that only makes sense) but he gives us the
story through Scully. So you are just completely wrong.
<<In a sense, the UST Mulder felt for Scully was a measure of the writers'
(and Mulder's) respect for Scully's worth. Rather than being a merely
reactive fetch-and-carry helper or a faithful sidekick, she was Mulder's
intellectual and on-the-job equal, and his side of the UST-parity was
his acknowledgement of her sexual worth as well. >>
She still is his equal. If you can't see that...
<<With "The Field Where I Died," CC and Morgan and Wong seem to have
discarded ALL elements of the "tease" of UST. If the X-Files is
"Mulder's story" and if Mulder believes that "souls mate eternal," and
that he lost his soul-mate for this lifetime when Melissa committed
suicide, then there is no more point in developing UST between him and
Scully -- it would just be a reflexive gesture from a shallow,
skirt-chasing Mulder and would have no personal import for Scully at
all.
"The Field Where I Died" has alientated a large part of the UST and
"shipper" contingent in this newsgroup and sent a some of the rest into
denial ("it was all Mulder's fantasy") -- but even their denial cannot
undo the damage, because if the X-Files is about what Mulder believes
and if he believes he's lost his "eternal" soul-mate, well, that's that.
No more UST, much less a "relationship."
I hope that someone connected with the show is reading the many comments
that have appeared in the group lately...because it looks to me as if
the boat is capsizing and people are ready to jump "ship" to some other
show that will give them a science fiction or horror or UFO theme --
plus a strong yet friendly female character who is sexually desired (if
not bedded) by her male partner. The name of the patch that will keep
the old canoe afloat is not "relationship," it is "UST" -- and a word to
the wise should be sufficent.>>
I find it unfortunate that many Shippers can't cast aside their views on
the potential of a romance and see this episode for what it was: a
gorgeous valentine to the characters Morgan and Wong respect and know so
well.
****************************
PAULSON AND MOTT IN '96!!!!!
****************************
Stef Davies
Brilliant, brilliant post, Catherine Y! It sums up everything I am feeling,
especially about 'TFWID' - may it rest its sorry soul in peace - but
wasn't eloquent enough to express myself. Bravo!
Explains exactly why this episode was such a bad mistake, angst-fest
extraordinaire. Another point: I watch X-Files for the subtlely and
brilliantly effective understatement of the performances, yet here I felt
as if I'd accidently stepped into the William Shatner School Of Acting -
Gillian Anderson always excepted.
>> <<With "The Field Where I Died," CC and Morgan and Wong seem to have
>> discarded ALL elements of the "tease" of UST. If the X-Files is
>> "Mulder's story" and if Mulder believes that "souls mate eternal," and
>> that he lost his soul-mate for this lifetime when Melissa committed
>> suicide, then there is no more point in developing UST between him and
>> Scully -- it would just be a reflexive gesture from a shallow,
>> skirt-chasing Mulder and would have no personal import for Scully at
>> all.
>>
>> "The Field Where I Died" has alientated a large part of the UST and
>> "shipper" contingent in this newsgroup and sent a some of the rest into
>> denial ("it was all Mulder's fantasy") -- but even their denial cannot
>> undo the damage, because if the X-Files is about what Mulder believes
>> and if he believes he's lost his "eternal" soul-mate, well, that's that.
>> No more UST, much less a "relationship."
>>
>> I hope that someone connected with the show is reading the many comments
>> that have appeared in the group lately...because it looks to me as if
>> the boat is capsizing and people are ready to jump "ship" to some other
>> show that will give them a science fiction or horror or UFO theme --
>> plus a strong yet friendly female character who is sexually desired (if
>> not bedded) by her male partner. The name of the patch that will keep
>> the old canoe afloat is not "relationship," it is "UST" -- and a word to
>> the wise should be sufficent.>>
One hundred ercent suport for the whole post.
X x X x X x X x X x X x X x X x X x X
Neil Kandalgaonkar
In article <19961112182...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
<para...@aol.com> wrote:
>Mulder and Scully
>are the protagonists but it is Scully who is the true protagonist. We
>learn from her and through her actions. We learn along with Scully more
>often than we learn along with Mulder. This is simple fact, NOT opinion.
This sounds like bait, but here I go anyway.
You're not making sense. That's like saying that Dr. Watson is the
protagonist of the Sherlock Holmes mysteries because we learn through his
eyes.
The protagonist, in the words of my high school English prof, "moves the
story forward". And far too often Scully just tags along after Mulder's
wild hunches, there to berate him if he's wrong and sulk scientifically
when he's right. The only moment she has is the inevitable autopsy scene.
And even then, we rarely see Mulder, for instance, dumbfounded at her
medical knowledge -- she talks into a tape recorder! Mulder just arrives
after its all done and grunts, as if dissecting a body is some sort of
flunky's job.
I don't have any problem with the show focusing on Mulder. But I have to
admit most of my favorite episodes have Scully taking a more active role.
-- "final repose" Scully cracks the case by 'women's intuition' but actually
is processing data she has unconsciously recorded. Also saves Mulder from
certain death at the hands of a banana cream pie.
-- the one with the Christ-child, and Christian mythology -- you don't have
to like the story but the reversal of the believer-skeptic roles was
interesting
-- "Jose Chung" The whole story is told through Scully's bleeping
perspective. (actually perspective with layers like an onion, but who's
counting).
It's boring if Scully is just Mulder's sidekick. Mulder is actually a
more interesting character if Scully's is strengthened -- his visionary
beliefs stand out more as Scully portrays a credible scientific
FBI agent.
Gainsaying everything Mulder says, but going along with him anyway, is
*not* conflict.
><< To them, Mulder is a hero only insofar
>as he remains free of female involvement and committment. In promoting
>their viewpoint, they would even de-sex Mulder so that his touching and
>grooming of Scully was shorn of sexual connotiations.
Mulder and Scully's relationship is truly erotic, in the sense of
incompleteness. But to accept Scully as sexual, you also have to accept
that her whole personality, including the skepticism, is something that
Mulder needs. (and Mulder's beliefs, vice versa).
When Scully is written as just a nattering nabob of negativism, then her
sexiness goes out the window too. She's just an obstacle in Mulder's path.
--
Neil Kandalgaonkar CUG web weaver http://cug.concordia.ca/~neil
ne...@cug.concordia.ca Current moon phase: look outside
para...@aol.com
<<You're not making sense. That's like saying that Dr. Watson is the
protagonist of the Sherlock Holmes mysteries because we learn through his
eyes. >>
Perhaps I should have been a little more clear. Scully is the character
with the most clearly-defined character arc. We were introduced to
Mulder's world at the same time Scully was. Therefore, the creator and
the writers ask us to interpret through Scully's eyes. Granted, as the
show has progressed, we see a lot of what's been going on through Mulder's
eyes and we learn about his character, but there is no debating the simple
fact that it is Scully's arc which brings us into the story and her arc
which will effect the most change upon her character at the end.
<<The protagonist, in the words of my high school English prof, "moves the
story forward". And far too often Scully just tags along after Mulder's
wild hunches, there to berate him if he's wrong and sulk scientifically
when he's right. The only moment she has is the inevitable autopsy scene.
And even then, we rarely see Mulder, for instance, dumbfounded at her
medical knowledge -- she talks into a tape recorder! Mulder just arrives
after its all done and grunts, as if dissecting a body is some sort of
flunky's job.
I don't have any problem with the show focusing on Mulder. But I have to
admit most of my favorite episodes have Scully taking a more active
role.>>
I don't think you're really understanding how I'm using protagonist here.
In screenwriting, no matter how many "protagonists" you have, one of the
protagonists has to be the character to whom the audience most easily
identifies. They may not necessarily be the most intersting or most
compelling character but it is vital that the audience be invited into the
story by someone they trust.
Make sense?
Wayne Gordon
Neil Kandalgaonkar wrote:
>
> When Scully is written as just a nattering nabob of negativism, then her
> sexiness goes out the window too. She's just an obstacle in Mulder's path.
> --
"nattering nabob of negativism" - have you been reading old Agnew
speeches?!
John Madigan
On 18 Nov 1996 para...@aol.com wrote:
> In screenwriting, no matter how many "protagonists" you have, one of the
> protagonists has to be the character to whom the audience most easily
> identifies. They may not necessarily be the most intersting or most
> compelling character but it is vital that the audience be invited into the
> story by someone they trust.
>
> Make sense?
Yeah, but X-Philes don't trust _anybody_! ;-)
___________________________________________________________________________
John Madigan jh...@axe.humboldt.edu Arcata, California
Where the wildlife preserve, the wetland, the fish farm and the wastewater
treatment plant are inseparable! Almost makes it worth all the fog ......