xfc: Change in Xemplary policy
Laurie Haynes
x-noarchive
From now on, Xemplary will no longer archive stories which
feature or heavily involve Doggett or Reyes. We have enough
to archive as it is without adding these new people. For the
time being, you may continue to post such stories to the XFC
lists, but once the autoarchiving program is instituted
(don't know when it will be finished), we will ask that you
not post them on the XFC lists. I pay to host Xemplary and I
also paid to have ads removed from XFC so our stories could
be automatically imported to the newsgroup. I choose to pay
this, so that's not a problem, I'm just stating this to
explain the ownership status.
I understand that Doggett has some fans. Someone might want
to consider starting a Doggett-centric mailing list for
those looking for stories concentrating on him.
Laurie Haynes
Co-archivist Xemplary
http://www.xemplary.com
X-Files fan fiction
Webmaster
I Made This Productions
Virtual X-Files Season 8
http://www.i-made-this.com
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X-Files Fan
Now that you run the world, specifically The X-Files world, will you be able to stop world hunger, end the economic downturn, and bring peace to the earth?
Quite the ego!
A Fan of X-Files.
shan...@xemplary.com (Laurie Haynes) wrote in article
<009901c0a672$553b3500$1fcaf4d0@laurie> :
_______________________________________________
Submitted via WebNewsReader of http://www.interbulletin.com
Who Cares
Who cares.
Xemplay, who?
shan...@xemplary.com (Laurie Haynes) wrote in article
<009901c0a672$553b3500$1fcaf4d0@laurie> :
_______________________________________________
Toniann
and my policy is usually just to lurk away, and this is quite clearly a
troll... But I just *knew* this would be the response to Xemplary's
policy change, sooner or later.
You know, you'd think we're all guaranteed rights and privileges to
Fanfic Archives at birth, or something, and heaven forbid anything
changes or interferes. But that ain't so. If an archivist wants to say,
"I no longer accept stories that contain the letter "E", s/he may do so.
Mind you, it's going to be difficult to find many stories, but hey, it's
not impossible.
Frankly, Laurie, for my two cents, good for you. It's a smart policy,
and a smart idea to implement it now before the ball gets rolling in a
big way.
Toniann
"X-Files Fan" <donot...@interbulletin.bogus> wrote in message
news:3AA5C63F...@interbulletin.com...
chris and steph
Stephanie :)
Ally112038
>Fanfic Archives at birth, or something, and heaven forbid anything
>changes or interferes. But that ain't so. If an archivist wants to say,
>"I no longer accept stories that contain the letter "E", s/he may do so.
>Mind you, it's going to be difficult to find many stories, but hey, it's
>not impossible.
>
>Frankly, Laurie, for my two cents, good for you. It's a smart policy,
>and a smart idea to implement it now before the ball gets rolling in a
>big way.
>
>Toniann
>
>
>
This policy was laid out in a polite, non agressive manner. It's a shame there
are those out there who seem to be unable to respond in the same way.
Someone once said that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. I think they had a
good point! <g>
Ally
witness protection
>>
>>Frankly, Laurie, for my two cents, good for you. It's a smart policy,
>>and a smart idea to implement it now before the ball gets rolling in a
>>big way.
>>
>>Toniann
Yeah! What she said!
wp
XXXXgizzieXXXX
"witness protection" <> wrote
> Yeah! What she said!
I agree an archivist can do wahtever they please with THEIR
archive, but...what ball??
XXXXXXXXXXgizzieXXXXXXXXXX
(sometimes stupid)
***********************************************************
"It's funny--there's a feeling in that instant following
some life changing event that you can maybe step
back over that sliver of time and actually stop the
awful from happening. But that feeling is a lie because
in the tiniest microsecond after any event occurs,
it's as safe in history as the Civil War. There is no
reverse, not even a neutral."
***********************************************************
Snarkypup
outlet!
Of course an archivist can do whatever they like. That doesn't mean it
isn't silly.
Here's the thing: at least for the rest of this season, and possibly
the movies as well, we aren't just going to have Mulder and Scully
investigating X-Files, we're going to have Mulder, Scully, Doggett and
Reyes investigating X-Files. Now, I don't know how this new policy
works, but doesn't this mean that no one who reads or writes for
Xemplary can put up post-ep fan fic for the rest of the season and any
movies to come? I mean, I figure some post-eps would probably heavily
feature Doggett, at least. There's such potential for interesting
Doggett and Mulder interactions, tensions, etc. but now Laurie is
telling me that if I want to post to her list, I can't write about
that? Pah. I'm outta there.
Look, I don't like what CC has done to the XF any more than anyone
else. Robert Patrick's a fine actor, blah blah blah. And, okay, maybe
Laurie doesn't want Doggett-centric fic because she's got something
against men with pointy ears or some other weird reason. Whatever. As
you say, it's her archive. But it's my fan fiction and nobody is
going to dictate what I read, or write. There are other lists, and
other archives, that foster creative expression rather than trying to
stifle it. I'm going to take advantage of those. And that's my right,
as an author and reader.
Jess M.
XXXXgizzieXXXX <giz...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:985p64$rvf$1...@slb0.atl.mindspring.net...
Toniann
> you say, it's her archive. But it's my fan fiction and nobody is
> going to dictate what I read, or write. There are other lists, and
> other archives, that foster creative expression rather than trying to
> stifle it. I'm going to take advantage of those. And that's my right,
> as an author and reader.
> Jess M.
Absolutely. I wholeheartedly agree that if you or anyone else is of that
mind, they should read and post elsewhere. That's definitely as it
should be, and why it's great that there are so many fic lists and
archives out there.
I would not agree that Laurie is attempting to stifle creative
expression, however. She's simply clarifying and adjusting her policy. I
don't see how this is much different from Slash-only archives, or
MSR-only archives and lists. We're archivists because we enjoy
"collecting" XF fanfic, and we each have our areas of focus. The way I
look at it, we're potentially looking at a "Next Generation XF" universe
in the next couple of years, and I'm sure there are Star Trek archives
that only accept TOS stories and not STTNG stuff. So that's why I think
it's not only reasonable but also responsible of Laurie to set out a
policy now, before the fanfic starts flooding in (that being the "ball
rolling" I was referring to, gizzie <g>).
Toniann
cofax
>From now on, Xemplary will no longer archive stories which
>feature or heavily involve Doggett or Reyes.
Laurie's entitled to archive or not archive whatever she likes,
as owner of the Xemplary archive.
As moderator of XFC, which is a private list, she can also make
any decisions she likes about the content of her list. However,
I'm somewhat disappointed that she has chosen to take this step.
XFC has been for some time one of the biggest, most inclusive lists
around. It's the list that lots of folks used as their primary
access to fic, because nearly everything was posted through
it. Some people get their fic ONLY through XFC.
Many writers only post through XFC, because of the
large readership on it, and because of the auto-forward to atxc
(and thus to Ephemeral and Gossamer).
Now, because of this change in policy, people who subscribe *only*
to XFC will not see a lot of the Season 8/9 stories
that people will be telling in the future. Stories like "Suttee"
by Jintian Li, and Rachel Anton's "Shadow Wife". Both of which
I highly recommend, btw.
And writers who want to tell those stories will not post them
to XFC, and may unsubscribe from XFC altogether. Which is too bad.
later-
cofax
Pita M.
>But it's my fan fiction and nobody is
>going to dictate what I read, or write. There are other lists, and
>other archives, that foster creative expression rather than trying to
>stifle it. I'm going to take advantage of those. And that's my right,
>as an author and reader.
What are you wearing? <g> ITAWTP
My thought is this: I see two kinds of archives out there, submission archives
and rec archives. Submission archives take most everything they're sent, and
rec archives are at the complete whim of the archivist. I like both types, but
I liked Xemplary because, like Gossamer, it was easy to submit and/or read
anything within reason. I'm afraid that's being lost. I'd have the same
reaction if there was a new prohibition on slash fics, and I don't even read
them (generally). Ditto if an archivist decided they hate the cancer-arc and
refused to take anything from the last half of Season 4.
Laurie has every right to do whatever she wants with Xemplary. There's not the
tiniest thought in my mind that she doesn't. What bothers me is one of the
largest, well known fic mailing lists suddenly asking its subscribing authors
to ignore part of the canon of the show. People who want to write stories in
the setting of season 8 will have to lose that outlet and will probably lose
some readers as well.
I hope my ramblings came through coherently; I'm sick and I'm having trouble
thinking past the haze.
Take care!
Pita
Pit...@cs.com
Classic X--> http://bounce.to/Classics
My Fic--> http://dreamwater.org/pitafic
XXXXgizzieXXXX
"Snarkypup" <> wrote
> My God, there are more socks in this thread than the local Hanes
> outlet!
I hope it was a coincidence that this post followed on the heels
of my comment.
XXXXXXXXXXgizzieXXXXXXXXXX
(who thinks sock pupeteers need professional help)
XFDragon1
Thanks to the proliferation of the Web, it's not like the old days where no one
but a techie could have a web page and therefore archive. Where once you had
only Gossamer (and praise it we shall!) you now have a massive variety of
personal archives from jokefic to badfic to animalfic and whatever turns your
crank. You can find an archive for almost anything imaginable and a few you
might not.
Stop bleating this crap about "creative expression" and write. ATXC doesn't
have any doors on it and Gossamer will archive it. If you run an archive, you
call the shots. Period. Believe it or not, some other site will archive the
Season 8/9/Doggy/Reyes stories; they really will.
I just hate when people panic.
good call, Laurie - as pointed out, better said now than when you're out of web
space and have to THEN declare a stop.
Lysandra
Toniann said:
> Absolutely. I wholeheartedly agree that if you or anyone else is of that
> mind, they should read and post elsewhere. That's definitely as it
> should be, and why it's great that there are so many fic lists and
> archives out there.
>
> I would not agree that Laurie is attempting to stifle creative
> expression, however. She's simply clarifying and adjusting her policy. I
> don't see how this is much different from Slash-only archives, or
> MSR-only archives and lists. We're archivists because we enjoy
> "collecting" XF fanfic, and we each have our areas of focus. The way I
> look at it, we're potentially looking at a "Next Generation XF" universe
> in the next couple of years, and I'm sure there are Star Trek archives
> that only accept TOS stories and not STTNG stuff. So that's why I think
> it's not only reasonable but also responsible of Laurie to set out a
> policy now, before the fanfic starts flooding in (that being the "ball
> rolling" I was referring to, gizzie <g>).
First, I agree that the owner of XFC and/or Xemplary can do whatever she
wants with them.
It's just a shame, in my opinion, that what used to be an all-inclusive
list, and one that forwards to this newsgroup, is narrowing its focus. It
feels wrong to me for a list called "*X-Files* Creative" to be excluding two
characters who will probably end up being the leads of the show.
I would understand if the archivist wanted to pick and choose which stories
to include based on story quality within her field of interest. But up 'til
now, *any* stories were welcome at XFC and Xemplary, no matter the rating,
the subject matter, or the characters included. So I didn't consider
Xemplary the kind of archive where the owner decided which stories to
include. It's an *auto*archive, isn't it? And if I didn't misunderstand
Laurie's post about the policy changes, *any* stories that *don't* feature
Doggett and/or Reyes will still be welcome:
<<Xemplary will no longer archive stories which feature or
heavily involve Doggett or Reyes.>>
I'm not quite sure how the new anti-Doggett, anti-Reyes auto-archiving at
XFC/Xemplary will work. Does a mere *mention* of either of those names
throw the story out? To be honest, I'm not all that interested in Doggett
and Reyes myself, not yet. But if and when they are all that's left on "The
X-Files," will XFC even continue to exist?
Perhaps I'm just being stubborn, and the fact that I've always associated
XFC with ATXC makes me uncomfortable with the upcoming changes. Maybe it's
the fact that the archivist is dictating policy change based on what she
*doesn't* like rather than what she *does* that bothers me. I assume that
Laurie hasn't previously loved every single story that's come through XFC,
but she archived them all anyway.
I have no problem being associated with Scullyfic, which caters to fics that
feature Scully, or Smut and MSR-Smut, which cater to fics that feature smut.
I wouldn't post non-Scully fics to Scullyfic, or G-rated fics to the smutty
lists. If, however, the owners of Scullyfic suddenly decided to change
their policy and only let members post fics which featured Scully *but not
Mulder,* I might take issue with that.
So, Laurie, why not start an archive which caters to fans of, say, Mulder,
rather than an archive which caters to fans of Mulder, Scully, Skinner,
Krycek, Well-Manicured Man, Cigarette Smoking Man, the First Elder, Margaret
Scully, Bill Scully, Melissa Scully, Samantha Mulder, Teena Mulder, Bill
Mulder, Byers, Langly, Frohike, Marita Covarrubias, Pendrell, Diana Fowley,
Jeffrey Spender, Holly, Kim, Kersh, Susanne Modeski, Chuck Burks, X, Deep
Throat ... but *not* Doggett or Reyes?
Toniann, quoted above, mentions "areas of focus." That's what annoys me
here; the "focus" is on Not Doggett and Not Reyes, rather than on something
the archivist actually likes. It's the negative reinforcement that bothers
me about this whole thing.
Of course, this is all just my opinion, your mileage may vary, yadda yadda
and so on and so forth. And I wholeheartedly agree with Toniann's first
statement, that people who disagree with the new policy should read and post
elsewhere.
I'll be reading and posting over at XFF, Scullyfic, PhoenixFic, Smut, and
MSR-Smut. <g>
Laurie, or anyone else, please feel free to respond publicly or privately if
you take issue with anything I've said here, or if I have my facts wrong.
= Robbie =
o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o
Visit my fanfic -- it won't bite unless you want it to...
http://www.angelfire.com/ms/lysandlys/main.html
Token24601
And I did not speak out
Because I did not write Doggettfic.
Then they came for the GunmenFic
And I did not speak out
Because I did not write for the Gunmen.
Then they came for the slash
And I did not speak out
Because I did not write slash.
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me.
Token24601
>the
>tiniest thought in my mind that she doesn't. What bothers me is one of the
>largest, well known fic mailing lists suddenly asking its subscribing authors
>to ignore part of the canon of the show. People who want to write stories in
>the setting of season 8 will have to lose that outlet and will probably lose
>some readers as well.
Disco. No one gives a shit what someone wants to archive, it's the change to
the list that I find disturbing.
It's the nature of the exclusionary policy that bothers me, I think. It's been
mentioned previously that the non-welcome nature of Doggett/Reyes fic is not
based on what it is (i.e. a list dedicated to slash, or humor, or MSR, or
whatever) but instead on an arbitrary dislike of two of the principle players
on the current show.
This may be a cultural bias. I am permitted to start a club for baseball, or
chess, or whatever, but I am not permitted (and find reprehensible) the idea of
a club which exists to exclude Jews or Blacks. Take the metaphor for what it's
worth without too much umbrage, I'm not comparing it directly to racisim, but
its a part of the arbitrary mindset which fosters that sort of behavior. It
strikes the same chord in me, and I find it bothersome.
Token
pam
Oh, please. No one is STOPPING you from posting Doggettfic.
You can always post it here *directly* instead of relying
on the XFC list to do it for you, which will result in it
being automatically archived at Ephemeral (as long as you
get the tags right) and at Gossamer. You can always post
it to the X-FILES-FANFIC/Chaos list, which will get it
forwarded here and archived at Gossamer. And you can always
start your *own* archive and tell everyone here where it is
so they can visit. And when you do, you will have every
right to decide what you will and will not archive on *your*
site, which you are paying for with *your own* money.
Soccerdev1
to
the list that I find disturbing.
It's the nature of the exclusionary policy that bothers me, I think. It's been
mentioned previously that the non-welcome nature of Doggett/Reyes fic is not
based on what it is (i.e. a list dedicated to slash, or humor, or MSR, or
whatever) but instead on an arbitrary dislike of two of the principle players
on the current show.
This may be a cultural bias. I am permitted to start a club for baseball, or
chess, or whatever, but I am not permitted (and find reprehensible) the idea of
a club which exists to exclude Jews or Blacks. Take the metaphor for what it's
worth without too much umbrage, I'm not comparing it directly to racisim, but
its a part of the arbitrary mindset which fosters that sort of behavior. It
strikes the same chord in me, and I find it bothersome.
Token
>>
I'm with Token. She owns the list, pays for it, runs it and has a right to do
with it as she wishes, but it's a disturbing trend among both writers, readers,
archivists, etc.
I'm also a little confused. Do stories featuring Doggett means stories where
he is the central character or stories where his name is so much as mentioned?
~Nat
Judyfromkansas
H. Dougan
(stormlantern)
Judyfromkansas
Big-Hearted Moose, who accommodated everybody (in his antlers) and lived to
regret it. Eventually he caught on and tossed interlopers out. The happy
ending? He walked away from the hunters who had pursued him. The interlopers,
who had slowed the Moose down, got stuffed (and to quote the good Doctor, "as
they should be").
H. Dougan
(stormlantern)
XFDragon1
this into a free speech issue...
ATXC will NOT be affected. Nope. Nada. Not one freaking bit.
Really.
You see, there's this site called Gossamer. You might have heard of it.
Thousands of stories including some about a guy called Pendrell and another
called Spender. And Fowley.
Gossamer picks up EVERY story that's posted here on ATXC. They dont' care about
what the content is, or even the spelling. (sigh!)
Stop having such a freaking kneejerk reaction and take a deep breath. No one is
saying to not write these, and fact is - there's been WAY more controversial
topics (anyone remember the last rapefic discussion?) over what was "fit to
post" here and what wasn't.
Get a frigging clue and stop making everything into a crisis. This won't affect
anyone unless they ONLY post via XFC and do NOT post to ATXC..
sheesh...
Meg
the fanfiction world. That's the impression I get...even if the individuals
who wrote this policy claim they are not...It just doesnt make any sense.
Xemplary is an x-files fanfiction archive..which should mean that all xfiles
fanfiction (with respect to some crude or disturbing fic) be permitted to
post there. John Doggett is an important character in the xfiles now..and
in my opinion a very interesting character...Not posting Doggett fic is
ridiculous..he is a major part of the xfiles...what's next?...no Krychek,
Skinner or Marita Fic?
meg
"Laurie Haynes" <shan...@xemplary.com> wrote in message
news:009901c0a672$553b3500$1fcaf4d0@laurie...
Token24601
You have my made my day. You have, in a single breath, compared Haynes to a
"big hearted moose" and cited Seuss's allagory for genocide as literary
evidence. Here, have some Crane. It appears to reflect your feelings on the
nature of things, so you should enjoy it.
The wayfarer,
Perceiving the pathway to truth,
Was struck with astonishment.
It was thickly grown with weeds.
"Ha," he said,
"I see that none has passed here
In a long time."
Later he saw that each weed
Was a singular knife.
"Well," he mumbled at last,
"Doubtless there are other roads."
-Stephen Crane
Token
Ally112038
>the fanfiction world. That's the impression I get...even if the individuals
>who wrote this policy claim they are not...It just doesnt make any sense.
>Xemplary is an x-files fanfiction archive..which should mean that all xfiles
>fanfiction (with respect to some crude or disturbing fic) be permitted to
>post there. John Doggett is an important character in the xfiles now..and
>in my opinion a very interesting character...Not posting Doggett fic is
>ridiculous..he is a major part of the xfiles...what's next?...no Krychek,
>Skinner or Marita Fic?
>
>meg
>
what they do or don't allow to be posted to the archive.
Everyone seems to be stuck on allowing free expression of the writers - but
what about free expression of the archive owners?
If they choose to not allow certain fic to be posted there then that's up to
them.
Personally I have no problems with Dogett/Reyes/Skinner or even....:::gasps::::
good 'ole Diana <g> but my opinions on these things don't really matter
anyway since I only write what I want to write. Writing *is* about personal
choice. So is maintaining an archive.
There are lots of other archives out there. Xemplary isn't the only one.
Laurie has stated that she no longer wants to archive Doggett/Reyes. Respect
her choice and move on to pastures new.
This is fanfic - it's not the be all and end all of life as we know it!
Ally
Token24601
>making
>this into a free speech issue..
Not trying to make it a free speech issue at all. Merely suggesting that it is
disturbing to me that one of the major archival lists, which has traditionally
been a long standing free and open list, is changing to a bizzare specialty
format.
>ATXC will NOT be affected. Nope. Nada. Not one freaking bit.
>Really.
>You see, there's this site called Gossamer. You might have heard of it.
You hold me in thrall with your wit and net savvy. I am new to these
"com-pu-tars" so as such cannot fathom things as you see them. I post to the
newsgroup by making screeching noises into a tin can, which may account for the
quality of some of my fic.
Your masterful display of sarcasm aside, I merely point out what I find to be
obvious. Apparently this offends you. <shrug> Not really my problem.
Again, the issue (for me) is not what she chooses to do with her list, or her
archive, but the arbitrary nature of the dismissal coupled with the claim that
it is not an arbirtrary issue (the bandwidth claim).
XFDragon1
>archive, but the arbitrary nature of the dismissal coupled with the claim
>that
>it is not an arbirtrary issue (the bandwidth claim).
actually, there IS no issue for you. You've got nothing to do with it. She runs
the archive and the list, and if she decides that no fic titles with the
letter "Q" shall ever pass through the gates, it's up to her.
I've lived with these sort of restrictions for years. Sorry to hear you can't.
AFan
Yawn.
A Fan
shan...@xemplary.com (Laurie Haynes) wrote in article
<009901c0a672$553b3500$1fcaf4d0@laurie> :
_______________________________________________
Token24601
of a listmom, no matter how many people miss the point about why the grousing
might be legit.
Real life is calling. So is fic. I haven't updated my own recs page in months
and months.
<goes back to writing>
Xochi Luvr
Soccerdev1 at socce...@aol.com wrote on 3/7/01 5:26 PM:
> I'm also a little confused. Do stories featuring Doggett means stories
where
> he is the central character or stories where his name is so much as
mentioned?
I'm going to assume what Laurie told me in private email is fit for mass
distribution because it is a piece of her policy on Doggett/Reyes
restriction.
This is what I sent to the xfc-fdbk mailing list:
on 3/7/01, XochiLuvr at xoch...@surfacing.com wrote:
>>> From now on, Xemplary will no longer archive stories which
>>> feature or heavily involve Doggett or Reyes.
>
> Stories which feature Doggett? Could you elaborate? Is that a complete,
> hands-down, ban/embargo/injunction against any fanfic that even
mentions the
> possible existence of John Doggett?
>
> If so, are you essentially banning any and all fic based on season 9 eps
or
> spoilers (since Doggett _is_ official canon, now, and as a primary
character
> at that), or have you simply chosen to excommunicate one half of this
season's
> X-Files department?
>
> Since Doggett's a central character, and Skinner/the Spenders/Marita/ad
> infinitum are not, do we need to ask for permission to post whenever we
use a
> secondary character, or are they already on the Index of banned
characters?
>
> Krycek was Mulder's partner, is he out now, too? What about Diana?
Arthur
> Dales? Ritter was Scully's partner for a bit, what about him?
>
> Are there any other characters we're not allowed to use? Are crossovers
out
> now, as well? What about AU? Can we have an approved
character/situation list,
> please? Maybe a list of punishments for each infraction?
>
> Furthermore, does this list (a "writer's resource - slash - feedback -
slash -
> discussion - whatever" list) consider Doggett to be
manly-man-non-gratia as
> well? Yahoogroups is free, as are its archives.
>
> XochiLuvr
She responded to a post I made to the XFC-FDBK list, a companion list to
xfc-atxc that I thought was meant to be an open, public forum for feedback
and writing and discussion in general. My message never appeared on
that list. Turns out that all messages made to that list must be approved
by the moderator, as are any made to XFC-ATXC/no-atxc if you check at
yahoo groups.
> No more than one paragraph of Doggett or Reyes.
That's part of what she told me in a two sentence reply to my entire email.
The other sentence in the reply was something I must assume was was
meant to be private, and I will keep it as such.
I took over the MSR-SMUT list from Brandon last year and run two other
MSR centric lists. While Livia has an eternally devoted love-slave in me for
her "excellent, non-intrusive helmsmanship" comment, it's not so much a
matter of _how_ I run them, but the reason behind _why_ I run them.
MSR-Smut, MSR-Central, and MSR-D are specialty lists. I don't run them
for some kind of ego-trip, I run them because I'm a shipper and I want to
ensure that there is an inviting atmosphere for fans of the 'ship, be they
readers or writers. To that end I entertain all kinds of suggestions from
subscribers on how to improve the lists, and I try to do what is best for
the
whole of the group.
If someone asks me if I am the "owner" of the lists, my answer is yes. I
am ultimately responsible for them, and yes, what I say goes. The trick is,
I try not to say too much, and I always listen. Not to disparage Laurie or
any specific listowner by saying this, but I wish more listowners would
listen to their subscribers. Unfortunately, it isn't required.
Whether or not I agree with Laurie is irrelevant. XFC-ATCX/NO-ATXC/FDBK
are her lists to do with as she pleases.
This is my take on the XFC fic lists right now.
1. XFC-ATXC/no-ATXC is _not_ the same as Xemplary. Laurie "owns" all
three, but each is a separate, though inter-related, entity.
2. Running lists on yahoo-groups is free. Payment for advertisement
removal, forwarding to newsgroups, and webspace costs are separate
issues.
From yahoogroups: "If you are a group owner interested in having a
plain-text only group for all members, disable attachments in your group
settings and HTML-based messages will be rejected."
Yahoo's ads in plain text take up the five lines of every post:
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~>
3 lines of ad space, plus header and ender lines with "--~-~>" completing
the header line and "----_->" completing the footer line.
Just like this.
---------------------------------------------------------------------_->
Every post from every list ends with:
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
How difficult would it be to write a script to strip those lines from every
post?
3. The XFC lists have always been universal in their content. I always
looked at it like this: Gossamer archives everything from ephemeral which
archived everything from XFC which accepted everything. Not completely
accurate, but certainly true. At least it was.
4. Nowhere in the XFC FAQ or on the xemplary website does is it state that
XFC or Xemplary will not accept certain posts. That should be revised and
posted publicly ASAP. I assume it will be.
What does all this boil down to? Xemplary is no longer a major (read:
universal) archive, and the XFC lists will follow as soon as Laurie
implements the new system.
You know what, though? She's well within her rights. She doesn't _have_
to do what the xfc members want. She doesn't even have to ask. She
didn't.
I don't like it. I hate it. A lot, a lot, a lot.
But she has that right.
So deal.
XL
--
http://surfacing.com/xl/
xoch...@surfacing.com
Owner, Chief Cook and Bottle Washer,
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MSR-SMUT/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MSR-Central/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MSR-D/
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pam
> I have so many more things to do than hate a FICTIONAL character.
Such as changing your socks every 5 minutes?
Snarkypup
coincidence. I swear. I know you are not a sock.
Jess
XXXXgizzieXXXX <giz...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:9865m1$acp$1...@slb0.atl.mindspring.net...
Judyfromkansas
thought the assertion of some people that L. Frank Baum's "Oz" books were
thinly-veiled political tracts supporting communism was a bit farfetched. But
whatever. To MOST people, the "Moose" story is a lesson on how NOT to let
people take advantage of your generosity. How NOT to be so nice that you let
people walk all over you. That is certainly the point I was trying to make -
that Laurie has the right to exclude/include anyone she pleases in her archive,
instead of accommodating everyone for fear of risking disapproval by some. I do
think that's her right. I don't think it's a matter of censorship, since she
isn't trying to make anyone else ban Doggettfic. JMHO.
H. Dougan
(stormlantern)
"It's not where ya start, it's where ya finish" - Little Orphan Annie
"It's a great life, as long as you don't weaken. And if you do weaken, it can
still be a great life...it all depends on what you weaken from" - Louis
Armstrong
Token24601
>I
>thought the assertion of some people that L. Frank Baum's "Oz" books were
>thinly-veiled political tracts supporting communism was a bit farfetched. But
>whatever. To MOST people, the "Moose" story is a lesson on how NOT to let
>people take advantage of your generosity. How NOT to be so nice that you let
>people walk all over you
I'll leave the XFC bit off, since I said I would, but yeah, I've found the
story to be an allegory for genocide.
I nearly did a paper on it, actually. The concencus among those who have
concencuses on such things is that it is (among other things) an
anti-immegration tale. The moose, freed from "freeloaders" is allowed to trot
away. I mostly took it a step further and noted that the freeloaders were
killed by the mooses enemies.
If I didn't already *know* that Seuss hated Nazi's, it's not a bad sort of
fable for the Germans treatment of the Jews and Gypsies and Slavs and Catholics
and whatnot. It could certainly be read that way easily enough. Note for
usenet law fans, this is in no way refering to recent events in terms of the
Holocaust, so no laws need be invoked. It is merely a tangent which I find
interesting.
But Geisel did do propaganda for a living for a long, long time. There has
recently been an excellent book of his work published, actually. You can take
it however you like, but if you wanted to find a solid piece of
anti-immigration/welfare/etc. propaganda, you could do worse then that story.
It's certainly more grounded in reality than the Baum books as commie tracts.
Like I said, I find it interesting.
Token
Judyfromkansas
kindly refrain from associating me with distasteful subjects such as genocide.
Then everything'll be okey-dokey.
CherylC561
(Ally112038) writes:
>s
Doesn't bother me at all since the doggett character really doesn't interest me
that much. If people want to read about him they can go to a site that
features that character. There's plenty of space out there for everyone so I
don't see where it would be a big deal. Also, if a person is paying for the
space they should have the right to put up whatever they want.
Stinker
Kim
"cofax (cof...@yahoo.com)" wrote:
>
> Now, because of this change in policy, people who subscribe *only*
> to XFC will not see a lot of the Season 8/9 stories
> that people will be telling in the future. Stories like "Suttee"
> by Jintian Li, and Rachel Anton's "Shadow Wife". Both of which
> I highly recommend, btw.
>
> And writers who want to tell those stories will not post them
> to XFC, and may unsubscribe from XFC altogether. Which is too bad.
>
You have to infer that that is exactly what Laurie wants.
It's a purge, pure and simple. From "X-Files" archive, to "What Laurie
Likes Only" archive.
Which is her right.
But it may not be right for everyone.
Snarkypup
> It's a purge, pure and simple. From "X-Files" archive, to "What
Laurie
> Likes Only" archive.
After that, I'd tell you how much I love you, Kim, but I know you're
saving yourself for Skinner.
Jess
Kim
<perk!>
I'm willing to walk on the wild side. <G>
*~*~*~*~*~*
Kim
Journ...@aol.com
http://journeytox.net <--- PLEASE NOTE NEW URL
WNS initiate: 2/13/01
"I'm in your hands." Skinner, The X-Files, SR819
"Words are, of course, the most powerful drug used by mankind." Rudyard Kipling
GrrRah
Snarkypup wrote:
>
> > It's a purge, pure and simple. From "X-Files" archive, to "What
> Laurie
> > Likes Only" archive.
>
Would you still consider it a purge if after season eight or nine there
is no Mulder or Scully on the XF? And fan fiction, of course, reflects
that change? It would seem natural to divide the archives by casts.
That's not to say that either genre is superior to the other---there
will be fans of both, just as Trek has fans of each generation of the
show, but it makes sense that people would choose to archive just one or
the other, depending on their preferences. I don't see this as a
discriminatory type of action, more a wave of the future. And I think
it's really okay to move that direction. <shrug>
GrrRah
Kim
>
>Snarkypup wrote:
Actually, I wrote this, and Jess responded.
>>
>> > It's a purge, pure and simple. From "X-Files" archive, to "What
>> Laurie
>> > Likes Only" archive.
>>
>Would you still consider it a purge if after season eight or nine there
>is no Mulder or Scully on the XF?
Since there was a slip up in attribution, I don't know if you want me or Jess
to respond, but I'll give it a whirl, if you don't mind.
Would I consider it a purge if this is the end of the M/S era this season, or
next? I think so. My reasons are:
(1) It's well known how very much Laurie hates Doggett and Doggett's fans (or
as she's said, "Doggy Bitches" ). This is an action that is, I infer, based on
her personal preference more than the direction of the show, or the clamoring
demands of the people she 'serves.'
(2) If authors choose to use keywords, or short summaries in the mailing list
stories or on the website (don't know, never subscribed to that list, and
Xemplary crashed my browser one too many times with the slow-loading graphics
and music, so I blew it off) then that's a clue for the reader. Doggett/Reyes
can be skipped. Or Mulder/Scully can be skipped. Or whatever.
(3) If it's an X-Files archive, then Doggett and Reyes may well be the X-Files
in the future. It is an incomplete X-Files archive if it leaves out Doggett
and Reyes, and whoever else Laurie may decide to dislike next week.
Like I said, it's her right to do with her archive as she feels best. She
chunked Hepaestion off her list and archive, for reasons I understood and
supported. She has now chunked Doggett and Reyes out of her archive for reasons
I have heard, but don't 'understand' and don't care enough about to support or
bash.
If she wants to purge her archive of anything but Kersh BDSM fic, that's her
business.
And fan fiction, of course, reflects
>that change? It would seem natural to divide the archives by casts.
See (3) supra.
>That's not to say that either genre is superior to the other---there
>will be fans of both, just as Trek has fans of each generation of the
>show, but it makes sense that people would choose to archive just one or
>the other, depending on their preferences.
If someone said they had a "Trek" archive, without specificity, then I'd guess
that they had all 4 iterations of Trek there, clearly labeled, and open to all.
What Laurie's doing is akin to taking a Trek archive and at the beginning of a
new series (if there was one) cutting it off and saying that it would serve the
previous series' fic only.
I don't see this as a
>discriminatory type of action, more a wave of the future. And I think
>it's really okay to move that direction. <shrug>
>
Whatever works for you. The new set up of Xemplary may work for you or some or
many or none.
Lysandra
surprise, GrrRah's e-mail address isn't valid. Takes me a while to figure
out when people are wearing socks.
GrrRah asked:
>
> Would you still consider it a purge if after season eight or nine there
> is no Mulder or Scully on the XF? And fan fiction, of course, reflects
> that change? It would seem natural to divide the archives by casts.
> That's not to say that either genre is superior to the other---there
> will be fans of both, just as Trek has fans of each generation of the
> show, but it makes sense that people would choose to archive just one or
> the other, depending on their preferences. I don't see this as a
> discriminatory type of action, more a wave of the future. And I think
> it's really okay to move that direction. <shrug>
I might agree, if these were two different shows. I'm not a ST fan, so
correct me if I'm wrong, but ST:TOS and ST:DS9 and ST:TNG etc were all
separate entities on my television. I seem to remember that in one of the
movies ("ST:Generations?") Capt. Picard and Capt. Kirk, or two different
casts, mingled on the same screen, and I suppose that was an anomaly.
But on "The X-Files," right now, anyway, while cast additions may signal a
certain "changing of the guard," it's still the same show rather than two
separate ones, and the "old" characters such as Scully and Skinner are still
there although "new" characters have arrived. Scully and Doggett are
currently *partners.* How does this make them each part of a different
generation of the show? Right now, at least, they're on the very same show.
I'm not saying I don't see your point, GrrRah ... if people who enjoy a
fandom find they don't enjoy a show after a certain episode, or after
certain characters appear or disappear, that's their prerogative.
If Laurie had waited until Mulder was completely gone from the series and
then said, for example, "I am not interested in post-Mulder episodes so
let's cut it off at his last ep" and dealt with only fanfic written about
episodes up to that point, I wouldn't take any issue with that. It'll
probably happen at the end of this season, and she could have kept her
archive pretty much the way she wanted without pissing so many people off.
Laurie's been in this fandom longer than I have, and she had to know that
making such a statement regarding changing her list and archival policy
would get people all fired up.
It's her bandwidth, and she can do what she wants with it. I suspect
that she'll have no problem paying for more bandwidth if fic about
Not!Doggett and Not!Reyes continues to be written and posted to XFC. Like I
said earlier in this thread, it's simply the negative aspect of the new
policy that irks me. It's not going to be an "X-Files" archive in the
future; it'll be an "X-Files -- No Doggett, No Reyes" archive. Which,
again, is fine. I just won't be participating because it rubs me the wrong
way.
= Robbie =
o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o
Two, two, two websites of my fic!
http://www.angelfire.com/ms/lysandlys/main.html
http://www.geocities.com/gnataliexyz/gnatworldmain.html
Laurie
wrote:
Uhhh, no. It will be X-Files Classic, as opposed to X-Files, the Next
Generation. They are different shows.
As far as I know, there are plenty of places that will still archive
Doggett and Reyes and XF: TNG fic. I prefer to concentrate on
archiving stories with characters from X-Files Classic.
bugs
comparison doesn't work, then Laurie wrote:
> >
> Uhhh, no. It will be X-Files Classic, as opposed to X-Files, the Next
> Generation. They are different shows.
I think you may have missed Robbie's point. *You* may feel they
are two different shows, but the X-files still airs on Sunday
night at 9PM with a cast that includes Scully and Mulder. Stories
written about events that happen on Sunday night are still
X-files fanfiction. If, next season, either original cast member
is gone, the show may still air under the title, The X-files.
You may not be happy with this, you may not agree with this, but
those are the facts as printed in the TV Guide.
Please clarify your plans for the future of the mailing list. In
a previous post, you said an auto-archive program was being
created for the list. Does that mean that you would exclude
Doggett/Reyes content stories from the mailing list in the future
since stories would automatically be funneled to the archive?
It's the loss of the mailing list that I believe is worrying most
people. Perhaps we could take up a collection to pay you the $6
for the ad removal so the list could remain as it was originally
intended, a service to the entire community.
Yes, I agree, change, she is a comin'. But I don't see the
stories breaking into absolute division as Laurie does. There's
easy fluidity between the characters, IMO. (Would a story be
excluded if it were classified as a cross-over between her
'Classic' and 'NG' divisions? Oh, my head!)
The division lies with the readers and their preferences. I think
you could easily say, rather than Classic and NG, some people
want to cut the show off at mid-season 7. There are plenty of
readers and writers who would be happy to work within that AU
universe, so why not come up some snappy name that instills that
idea? Has anyone come up with some titles that are not negative?
I keep imagining names based on religious movements, but perhaps
that would insult any number of folks. Protestant X? Orthodox X
has a nice ring, but when I think about it, that would be Doggett
and Reyes since they are show canon. Jesuit X? Reformed X?
---bugs, wandering away scratching her shell with her antenna
Kim
>Uhhh, no. It will be X-Files Classic, as opposed to X-Files, the Next
>Generation. They are different shows.
Uh, no.
There is no rumor of any anticipated name change for the series. Unless your
hallucinogens work so that you see titles that the rest of us don't, that's a
big 'uh no' Laurie.
How embarassing for you.
>
>As far as I know, there are plenty of places that will still archive
>Doggett and Reyes and XF: TNG fic. I prefer to concentrate on
>archiving stories with characters from X-Files Classic.
>
Uh huh.
Look, do what you want, just stop trying to spin it as anything to do with the
show and just admit it's everything to do with what YOU want for YOUR archive
and list.
XFDragon1
>
>>Uhhh, no. It will be X-Files Classic, as opposed to X-Files, the Next
>>Generation. They are different shows.
>
>Uh, no.
>
>There is no rumor of any anticipated name change for the series. Unless your
>hallucinogens work so that you see titles that the rest of us don't, that's a
>big 'uh no' Laurie.
>
>How embarassing for you.
>
>>
>>As far as I know, there are plenty of places that will still archive
>>Doggett and Reyes and XF: TNG fic. I prefer to concentrate on
>>archiving stories with characters from X-Files Classic.
>>
>
>Uh huh.
>
>Look, do what you want, just stop trying to spin it as anything to do with
>the
>show and just admit it's everything to do with what YOU want for YOUR archive
>and list.
>
and people ask why I've given up writing XF fanfic...
sigh...
Laurie
wrote:
> Laurie wrote:
>> >
>> Uhhh, no. It will be X-Files Classic, as opposed to X-Files, the Next
>> Generation. They are different shows.
>
>Yes, I agree, change, she is a comin'. But I don't see the
>stories breaking into absolute division as Laurie does. There's
>easy fluidity between the characters, IMO. (Would a story be
>excluded if it were classified as a cross-over between her
>'Classic' and 'NG' divisions? Oh, my head!)
>
They are two different entities. There is the Faux Files (AKA XF:TNG)
and there is X-Files Classic which lasted seven seasons and ended on
an unresolved cliffhanger. Stories from those seven seasons or based
on characters from those seven seasons are what will make up Xemplary.
Xemplary is mine. I will decide what I want on it and if I choose to
shut it down completely, I'll do that, too. XFC, however will continue
to take anything but GA/DD fic and bestiality fic. If the day comes I
get an autoarchive program written for XFC and Xemplary, I will need
to restrict what comes in to the list to X-Files Classic fic only in
order to keep the unwanted Faux Files fic off Xemplary. There are
other lists and other archives that cater to a wide variety of
interests and tastes. Perhaps someone would like to give links to such
sites and lists.
Discussion over with on my part. The decision has already been made.
Kim
>
>sigh...
This is baloney, Sheryl.
If *you* gave up writing XF fic, then that was your choice.
If you blame the fandom when you choose not to write, did you credit the fandom
when you did write? That's ridiculous. It's far more personal than whatever
happens on ATXC.
Laurie's action toward her list and website are worth a few snarks or rebuttals
and evidently worth someone creating a sock or two. But nothing anyone does
here on ATXC genuinely creates the impetus to write or takes it away.
If I, or people like me, distress you to a point where you can't write, block
me. If it helps you write, then you've lost nothing and gained a lot. If it
doesn't help you write, then you know that ATXC's moods weren't the problem at
all. Either way, you've gained some knowledge.
Good luck.
Rachel Anton
> But nothing anyone does
>here on ATXC genuinely creates the impetus to write or takes it away.
Normally, I'd agree with you wholeheartedly, Kim. But I've gotta say, reading
this whole discussion has given me a strong impetus to write as much
Doggett-fic as I possibly can <g>
Rachel
GrrRah
Lysandra wrote:
>
> I was going to reply to the sender (GrrRah) directly, but surprise,
> surprise, GrrRah's e-mail address isn't valid. Takes me a while to figure
> out when people are wearing socks.
>
I apologize for using a fake address, but I have some very valid
personal reasons for not wanting to receive private e-mails from people
I don't know. If it's any consolation, I always use the same name and
address on this list, regardless of what the topic is, so at least I'm
not jumping all over the place with different identities. I also
realize that anyone over the age of eight these days could follow my
tracks and find my real address, but fortunately, I'm not worth it and
everyone has a hell of a lot better things to do with their time than
that.<g> I always enjoy the discussions on this list, and value the
opportunity we all have to voice our opinions, no matter how much they
may differ. I just prefer to keep my correspondence on this list rather
than through private mail. Sorry--I hope this isn't a problem.
GrrRah
Lysandra31
saying that I always use the same identity to post here, I inadvertantly posted
from my OLD identity's address. I assure all of you, this was merely a screwup
on my part, facilitated by my ISP, which just deleted a bunch of my e-mail and
e-mail preferences.
Yes, I used to be Ropo + bop. Yes, I am fairly stupid when it comes to working
my own e-mail. Yes, I'm still on hold with my ISP trying to get all my old
e-mail back and straighten out which address my Outlook Express sends from when
I post to the newsgroup.
Thank you.
= Robbie = (using AOL as a backup...)
GrrRah
Kim wrote:
>
> GrrRah asked:
>
> Would I consider it a purge if this is the end of the M/S era this season, or
> next? I think so. My reasons are:
>
> (1) It's well known how very much Laurie hates Doggett and Doggett's fans (or
> as she's said, "Doggy Bitches" ). This is an action that is, I infer, based on
> her personal preference more than the direction of the show, or the clamoring
> demands of the people she 'serves.'
I don't have any history with Laurie, but it does sound like this
decision was made primarily for personal reasons, which is okay, I
guess. It sounds like it would help if she'd just be honest about it
and rename the archive. But then I will feel the same way about the XF
if and when it has a total cast change.
>
> (2) If authors choose to use keywords, or short summaries in the mailing list
> stories or on the website (don't know, never subscribed to that list, and
> Xemplary crashed my browser one too many times with the slow-loading graphics
> and music, so I blew it off) then that's a clue for the reader. Doggett/Reyes
> can be skipped. Or Mulder/Scully can be skipped. Or whatever.
>
Well, I agree with you on this one! I just don't go to slow loading
sites such as this one---no patience in my old age, I guess. <g>
(3) If it's an X-Files archive, then Doggett and Reyes may well be the X-Files
> in the future. It is an incomplete X-Files archive if it leaves out Doggett
> and Reyes, and whoever else Laurie may decide to dislike next week.
>
That's true, they probably are the future of the show, but then there
should be archives that feature only the new cast. I'm not bashing
change in the show, just defending a separation of the different
generations in fanfic. But again, this whole issue would be nonexistent
if Laurie changed the name of her archive.
> Like I said, it's her right to do with her archive as she feels best. She
> chunked Hepaestion off her list and archive, for reasons I understood and
> supported. She has now chunked Doggett and Reyes out of her archive for reasons
> I have heard, but don't 'understand' and don't care enough about to support or
> bash.
>
> If she wants to purge her archive of anything but Kersh BDSM fic, that's her
> business.
>
Yeah, you're right---I do see both sides of this issue. I guess I'm
just not looking at it as personal slam at Doggett, even if it really
is. I'm thinking more in terms of what makes sense logistically in the
long run. My personal preference will always be Mulder and Scully fics,
(though I don't think Doggett is a bad character, by any means), but I
think there's plenty of room in the fic world for all of them.
GrrRah (hope this made sense--it's late and it's past my bedtime <BG>)
Token24601
>Xemplary is mine. I will decide what I want on it and if I choose to
>shut it down completely, I'll do that, too. XFC, however will continue
>to take anything but GA/DD fic and bestiality fic.
<snork>
I HAVE THE POWER! Whee!
You stride the earth like a vengeful god. You go. Although I will question
your taste in fics.
So... Doggett/Reyes fic is NOT acceptable, but (ferinstance) a story featuring
Mulder or Skinner as a pedophile would?
Although I have no place in asking, since you threw me off the list a long time
ago.
But that was a different name. I'd made the mistake of writing fic and having
friends you didn't like.
>They are two different entities. There is the Faux Files (AKA XF:TNG)
>and there is X-Files Classic which lasted seven seasons and ended on
>an unresolved cliffhanger. Stories from those seven seasons or based
>on characters from those seven seasons are what will make up Xemplary.
You might want to check FOX or imdb.com about that, since they appear to be the
same show. Or you might wish to seek counciling for your dangerous obsession,
since you appear to be crazier than a shithouse rat.
Just my opinion of course. I may be confusing The Classic XFC, which was run
by someone else and was a safe and sane place to post your work, with XFC: The
Next Generation, which is run by a madwoman who threw a new author who had one
story to his credit off for a new post for no clear reason, sans E-Mail or
explaination.
It IS your list. You can kick whoever or whatever off you like.
It's your call. It's your list.
That doesn't mean you're not a horrible person, either.
>Discussion over with on my part. The decision has already been made.
I agree. Nuff said.
Token
"If folks don't read my fic because I flamed somebody who needed it on the NG,
then damn. No residuals for me." - Me, just now.
bugs
Normally, I really hate 'Me Too!' posts, but when it's myself
doing it, I can justify it. Some good can come out of flamewars!
Stories from Rachel! The impetus to finish my floating Doggett
fics! Wheee!!
--bugs, who is buggy sometimes.
Deslea R. Judd
> Uhhh, no. It will be X-Files Classic, as opposed to X-Files, the Next
> Generation. They are different shows.
appears all the positive terms refer to Requiem and prior, and all the
negative ones to Within and beyond.
Excuse me while I go sputter incoherently for a bit.
Okay, thanks. I'm back.
You didn't say "I won't be archiving any stories to do with Season 8 and
beyond". You said (paraphrase) I won't archive stories featuring Doggett or
Reyes. That implies you will still archive stories pertaining to, say,
Scully and Skinner, or Gibson, or the alien hybrid kid, situated in Season
8. That kills your whole XF Classic/XF Next Generation argument which,
let's face it, is pretty weak in the first place; since this is not a
delineation which has any basis in the show, the fandom, or in fact anywhere
but your head.
Deslea
WesternRose
Yes! More Doggettfic! More Skinnerfic!
Down with the powers that be!
Western Rose -- advocating anarchy over her coffee.
Kim
::::blows kisses to Rachel::::
You go, girl!
GrrRah
Ropobop wrote:
>
>
> I apologize if I jumped to the wrong conclusion.
>
> I admit I got persnickity after drafting a reply which I'd planned to go
> privately to you and it came back to me. Despite my strong opinions, I
> think this discussion has about run its course here on the newsgroup and I
> didn't want to further it by posting publicly. It's actually been a mostly
> civil discussion, though, and I have no problems with you (or anyone else,
> for that matter) posting your opinions at all.
>
> Like you, I always post from the same address when I post my opinion here.
> Again, I am very sorry I accused you of being a sock. There are plenty of
> *real* sock-puppets out there, I fear, and I appreciate people like you who
> can stick to one identity on the newsgroup. I thank you for explaining why
> your address didn't work for me, and again, I am very sorry if I offended
> you.
>
> = Robbie =
Thank you for being so kind, and for understanding---I really appreciate
it. Take care,
GrrRah
Teddi Litman
Token24601 wrote:
>
>
> Not trying to make it a free speech issue at all. Merely suggesting that it is
> disturbing to me that one of the major archival lists, which has traditionally
> been a long standing free and open list, is changing to a bizzare specialty
> format.
>
I know I'm late to this discussion; but I must disagree. I feel you are not clear
on the nature of XFC and Xemplary to claim it "has traditionally been a long
standing free and open list." It is not an open list; it is Laurie's list. She has
*always* been relatively restrictive about what is allowed on her list. I don't
think it is at all disturbing that she's added another restriction; made her list
more specialized. It's her right. If you don't like her restrictions, unsub her
list and join one you like. Heaven knows, there are plenty of XF fanfic lists and
archives to choose from.
Teddi
Teddi Litman
Token24601 wrote:
>
> It's the nature of the exclusionary policy that bothers me, I think. It's been
> mentioned previously that the non-welcome nature of Doggett/Reyes fic is not
> based on what it is (i.e. a list dedicated to slash, or humor, or MSR, or
> whatever) but instead on an arbitrary dislike of two of the principle players
> on the current show.
>
> This may be a cultural bias. I am permitted to start a club for baseball, or
> chess, or whatever, but I am not permitted (and find reprehensible) the idea of
> a club which exists to exclude Jews or Blacks. Take the metaphor for what it's
> worth without too much umbrage, I'm not comparing it directly to racisim, but
> its a part of the arbitrary mindset which fosters that sort of behavior. It
> strikes the same chord in me, and I find it bothersome.
>
I don't get the metaphor if you are not comparing it to racism; and it's stupid to
compare this to racism. It's a dumb analogy; and you worry too much if you find
Laurie's decision not to archive Doggett/Reyes stories at all bothersome. So she
has a arbitrary dislike for Doggett/Reyes; what's wrong with that? It's her taste,
her list, and her archive. She's being upfront about her restrictions here. If you
like the same stories Laurie does, you sub her list and you visit her archive. If
you don't, you go elsewhere. There are other XF fanfic forums that are less
restrictive than Laurie's list. This ng is one of them. Unfortunately, since Laurie
forwards posts from her list to this ng, some people tend to mistakenly assume her
list and this ng are the same thing. They are not.
Teddi
Teddi Litman
"cofax (cof...@yahoo.com)" wrote:
>
>
> XFC has been for some time one of the biggest, most inclusive lists
> around. It's the list that lots of folks used as their primary
> access to fic, because nearly everything was posted through
> it. Some people get their fic ONLY through XFC.
>
> Many writers only post through XFC, because of the
> large readership on it, and because of the auto-forward to atxc
> (and thus to Ephemeral and Gossamer).
If this is the case, than it will have to change. I'm sure it will.
>
>
> Now, because of this change in policy, people who subscribe *only*
> to XFC will not see a lot of the Season 8/9 stories
> that people will be telling in the future. Stories like "Suttee"
> by Jintian Li, and Rachel Anton's "Shadow Wife". Both of which
> I highly recommend, btw.
I see this change in policy as a good thing then. Laurie has *always*
been restrictive about her list. If this latest restriction has just
made some people aware of this, it's a good thing. It seems some people
considered XFC was an all-inclusive XF fanfic list; this has been a
false assumption. If anyone who used *only* XFC as their source for XF
fanfic somehow didn't realize they did not have access to all XF fanfic
and all XF fanfic readers, hopefully they will now.
>
>
> And writers who want to tell those stories will not post them
> to XFC, and may unsubscribe from XFC altogether.
And hopefully, they'll post their stories elsewhere ... in multiple
forums preferably.
XFC and Xemplary is not the only game in town. It has never been.
Teddi
Teddi Litman
Kim wrote:
>
>
> Like I said, it's her right to do with her archive as she feels best. She
> chunked Hepaestion off her list and archive, for reasons I understood and
> supported. She has now chunked Doggett and Reyes out of her archive for reasons
> I have heard, but don't 'understand' and don't care enough about to support or
> bash.
>
>
I really don't see the difference between "chunking" Hepaestion's stories and
"chunking" Doggett and Reyes stories. It's not neccessary to understand her reasons
for not wanting a specific type of stories on her list or her archive. She doesn't
want them there; so they are not allowed. It's her list.
Teddi
Amber
somewhat like a soap opera...
heated discussions and constant controversies ;)
Jenna
MEEEEEEEEE TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Jenna
Rachel Anton <ranto...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010311013140...@ng-fu1.aol.com...
Sarah Ellen Parsons
hang themselves. Wow.
Laurie Haynes ranted:
>They are two different entities. There is the Faux Files (AKA XF:TNG)
>and there is X-Files Classic which lasted seven seasons and ended on
>an unresolved cliffhanger. Stories from those seven seasons or based
>on characters from those seven seasons are what will make up Xemplary.
How cool you can arbitrarily decide this for the fanfic community! Many of
us, however, do not acknowledge your position as Supreme Commander or
whatever
title you like and won't buy this freakish distinction.
>
>Xemplary is mine. I will decide what I want on it and if I choose to
>shut it down completely, I'll do that, too.
And nobody should complain about an archive you OWN. You are absolutely
right
here - you go, girl!
XFC, however will continue
>to take anything but GA/DD fic and bestiality fic. If the day comes I
>get an autoarchive program written for XFC and Xemplary, I will need
>to restrict what comes in to the list to X-Files Classic fic only in
>order to keep the unwanted Faux Files fic off Xemplary.
Or, you could let people label them clearly and purge them as they come in
like every other non-lazy-ass archivist in the universe. You obviously have
no interest in serving the llst membership but merely your own taste, ego
and
sloth. Thankfully, you've finally revealed this for those who were under
the
illusion that you took your responsibility as a list-mom seriously and made
some attempt to be even-handed or to serve the members of the list you
administrate. Thanks for exposing your TRUE agenda - Queen Laurie.
There are
>other lists and other archives that cater to a wide variety of
>interests and tastes. Perhaps someone would like to give links to such
>sites and lists.
>
>Discussion over with on my part. The decision has already been made.
Arbitrarily and self-servingly as always.
XFC members - you don't have to take this. I strongly urge you to change
lists if you dislike this administration based on whim. Go to XFF. Go to
the
snarkily-named Mulderluvdictatorship, which will NEVER have rules or generic
restrictions unless the list members VOTE to institute them.
You do NOT have to live under the tyrrany of Laurie's whim. Run for the
much
more welcoming hills. Aieee. Aieee. Aieee.
As Thomas Jefferson said, "A little rebellion now and then is a good thing."
Rouse, rabble, rouse.
SE Parsons
shannono
> Laurie has *always* been restrictive about her list.<
As I said in a separate post, XFC was founded and run for years
as a general XF fic list. In the time I was a member (more than
two years, under both administrations), it had guidelines for
things like keywords and classifications but no content
restrictions, beyond possibly some extremes along the lines of
bestiality. While Laurie has in the past restricted some
individual stories and series, as well as some authors, this is
the first time I know of that a complete, mainstream, canon-based
genre of fic has been restricted on a formerly "open" list.
It is true that XFC is not the only source of XF fanfic around,
but it is *not* true that it has not been a "general" fanfic
list. The new policy (which, as I also said before, Laurie has
the right to install, just as list members have the right to go
elsewhere) will convert the list from general to restrictive. No
matter your opinion of the move, when/if it takes effect, it will
be a change in format for XFC.
Shannon
Kim
>want them there; so they are not allowed. It's her list.
Which is abundantly obvious, and has never been disputed.
Teddi, Laurie hates Doggett and now has made Doggett hate her list and archive
policy. She need explain to nobody.
On the other hand, nobody need pretend that she has done anything but turn a
fic list that once contained all fic (except Hepaestion bestiality and DD/GA
fic which is not fic at all) about the X-Files into a list/archive that
contains some fic about the X-Files.
Like I said, I don't care. Don't do XFC or Xemplary, even back before Laurie
started with the Witch stuff that made me think she was perhaps one of the
least ethical people I'd ever come across. Considering I was a lawyer, that's
saying a lot.
I don't give a damn about XFC or Xemplary but seeing this whole debate made me
prompted to do one thing, and I've done it. That was: speak out about what I
saw as the truth of the matter.
Having done that, I'm done.
a guy
Man, you're one pissed-off bitch! The X-Files is the X-Files, and you
just hate Doggett (I don't like him, but episode that feature him are
fine).
So, tell me, is *all* S8 banned from the list? Mulder, Scully,
Doggett, Skinner, and everyone else are a part of the X-Files, and
you're a fucking bitch.
Simple as that.
Teddi Litman
shannono wrote:
> While Laurie has in the past restricted some
> individual stories and series, as well as some authors, this is
> the first time I know of that a complete, mainstream, canon-based
> genre of fic has been restricted on a formerly "open" list.
I really don't see a whole lot of distinction. My point is Laurie, since
she has handled XFC, has made certain decisions on what is or isn't
allowed on her list. These decisions have always been hers alone and not
a point of debate or discussion. Because of this, I've long considered
XFC *Laurie's* list rather than an "open" list. It's neither a good nor
bad thing and, I admit, the distinction is a bit hard to see sometimes.
All lists have "list moms" or "list dads;" but some choose to allow list
members to help make some decisions. (eg: "List mom" asks "Hey guys,
what do you feel about xyz discussions? Do you want to allow them?"
There's some discussion and hopefully, if it's a fairly friendly list,
some decision is reached.) This type of list is a more "open" list.
As far as archives go, Gossamer came up quite frequently in this
discussion. I also see Gossamer as a different type of archive than
Xemplary. More than one person is responsible for the administration of
Gossamer. I also believe Gossamer has stated it does not make any type
of editorial decisions (despite the requirement that it be XF fanfic) on
what will allowed on the archive. Therefore, it can be considered an
"open" archive. Xemplary is merely an archive of the stories that appear
on Laurie's list where she has sole power to decide what is allowed.
Laurie's restrictions of individual stories, series, and authors are
editorial type decisions. Restriction of a specific genre of stories is
just another editorial decision on Laurie's part.
>
>
> It is true that XFC is not the only source of XF fanfic around,
> but it is *not* true that it has not been a "general" fanfic
> list. The new policy (which, as I also said before, Laurie has
> the right to install, just as list members have the right to go
> elsewhere) will convert the list from general to restrictive. No
> matter your opinion of the move, when/if it takes effect, it will
> be a change in format for XFC.
>
Of course it's a change in format; Laurie did title the post "Change in
Xemplary policy" after all; but it's also par for the course. I suppose
there can be a distinction made between general and open. As well as a
distinction between restrictive and specialized. Ok, how about if I put
it this way: Laurie's list was never an open list. It was a general
list; but is also was relatively restrictive. (That's relative compared
to something like Gossamer which restricts only that which is not XF
fanfic or XF fanfic that is proven to be plagiarized.) Now it's
specialized and, of course, still restrictive.
As I see it, those who seem the most upset about the change in format of
XFC/Xemplary are upset because they misunderstood the nature of the
list/archive.
Teddi
Teddi Litman
Kim wrote:
>
>
> On the other hand, nobody need pretend that she has done anything but turn a
> fic list that once contained all fic (except Hepaestion bestiality
That was my original point of contention. It wasn't just Hepaestion bestiality;
*all* the author's stories were restricted at the time. This decision was prompted
by a discussion on this ng which prompted list members to ask the author be banned.
It was at this point that I became aware that Laurie editorialized her list. It
*should* have been the point everyone became aware Laurie editorialized her list.
At the time I unsubbed her list, not because I was a fan of Hepaestation; but
because I already had too many mailing lists and felt I did not need nor want a
list owner editorializing my source of stories. Obviously, a number of people did
want and need a list owner to editorialize or they wouldn't have asked Laurie to do
so. This is why many people supported Laurie's ban of this writer who was offensive
to many. I supported her right to do this also even though the writer did not
offend me; because I felt she provided a need in creating a more "family" type
list. Even though I didn't need nor want Laurie's editorial services personally; I
imagined there must have been people who did. So, just as there were people then
who wanted a "family" type list; there are people now who want a list devoid of
Doggett/Reyes stories. <shrug> Same difference to me.
Teddi
DaviesUK
>Doggett, Skinner, and everyone else are a part of the X-Files, and
>you're a fucking bitch.
Ah, after 60 posts we finally get to the personal insults.
What a thankless task being an archivist or running a list often is. Of course
no-one's *forced* to do it, but the pain often outweights the pleasure until
you finally think, "Stuff this, I've got better things to do than be slagged
off in public and in private."
StefXF
Steph
Please remove NO-SPAM from the address to reply :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Medie
>Normally, I'd agree with you wholeheartedly, Kim. But I've gotta say,
reading
>this whole discussion has given me a strong impetus to write as much
>Doggett-fic as I possibly can <g>
>
>Rachel
YAY!
And it does doesn't it. *G* Gets the muses dander up I suppose.
*laughs*
M.
Medie
>>I understand that Doggett has some fans. Someone might want
>>to consider starting a Doggett-centric mailing list for
>>those looking for stories concentrating on him.
Starting dear? *G* Too late. There are already a whack of 'em.
M
Helen Wills
<20010314163359...@ng-fo1.aol.com>...
>What a thankless task being an archivist or running a list often is.
Of course
>no-one's *forced* to do it, but the pain often outweights the
pleasure until
>you finally think, "Stuff this, I've got better things to do than be
slagged
>off in public and in private."
>
>StefXF
That's one of the reasons I quit running a fanzine years ago. Sooner
or later the joy in it just *goes*. <Sigh>
Helen
XXXXX
But Eeyore was saying to himself, "This writing
business. Pencils and what-not. Over-rated, if
you ask me. Silly stuff. Nothing in it."
Ally112038
>>Doggett, Skinner, and everyone else are a part of the X-Files, and
>>you're a fucking bitch.
>
>Ah, after 60 posts we finally get to the personal insults.
>
>What a thankless task being an archivist or running a list often is. Of
>course
>no-one's *forced* to do it, but the pain often outweights the pleasure until
>you finally think, "Stuff this, I've got better things to do than be slagged
>off in public and in private."
>
>StefXF
>
the contempt they deserve. No matter how inflammatory a topic there is never
an excuse for resorting to cheap shots.
JMHO
Ally
a guy
>>So, tell me, is *all* S8 banned from the list? Mulder, Scully,
>>Doggett, Skinner, and everyone else are a part of the X-Files, and
>>you're a fucking bitch.
>
>Ah, after 60 posts we finally get to the personal insults.
>
>What a thankless task being an archivist or running a list often is. Of course
>no-one's *forced* to do it, but the pain often outweights the pleasure until
>you finally think, "Stuff this, I've got better things to do than be slagged
>off in public and in private."
>
>StefXF
>
And just how am I wrong? She hates Doggett, for some reason, and
wishes to do whatever possible to limit the amount of Doggett-fic.
The XFC has *never* been a restrictive list until now. It is one of
the major sources for stories.
Until you can prove me wrong, she's still a bitch in my mind.
GrrRah
a guy wrote:
> >
>
> And just how am I wrong? She hates Doggett, for some reason, and
> wishes to do whatever possible to limit the amount of Doggett-fic.
> The XFC has *never* been a restrictive list until now. It is one of
> the major sources for stories.
>
> Until you can prove me wrong, she's still a bitch in my mind.
> >Steph
> >
> >Please remove NO-SPAM from the address to reply :-)
> >
Several months ago there was a discussion on this list about name
calling---apparently you missed it. Expressing your opinion about a
story, character, even an archive, is fine. Resorting to immature
insults, calling people names, and swearing at people is not. You may
not agree with what is being said on this list, or what is being done by
Laurie, but that's life. Get over it, or at least express yourself in a
mature, civil manner and who knows---someone might actually listen.
GrrRah
a guy
wrote:
>
>
>a guy wrote:
>
>> >
>>
>> And just how am I wrong? She hates Doggett, for some reason, and
>> wishes to do whatever possible to limit the amount of Doggett-fic.
>> The XFC has *never* been a restrictive list until now. It is one of
>> the major sources for stories.
>>
>> Until you can prove me wrong, she's still a bitch in my mind.
>> >Steph
>> >
>> >Please remove NO-SPAM from the address to reply :-)
>> >
>Several months ago there was a discussion on this list about name
>calling---apparently you missed it.
Probably. This is a fanfiction newsgroup, so that's why I come here.
> Expressing your opinion about a
>story, character, even an archive, is fine. Resorting to immature
>insults, calling people names, and swearing at people is not.
And just how should I express my opinion? She's using immature
reasoning, so it's unfair for me to use "immature" insults? Take a
look at a few quotes from her:
"Uhhh, no. It will be X-Files Classic, as opposed to X-Files, the Next
Generation. They are different shows."
"They are two different entities. There is the Faux Files (AKA XF:TNG)
and there is X-Files Classic which lasted seven seasons and ended on
an unresolved cliffhanger."
And I'm the immature one?
> You may
>not agree with what is being said on this list, or what is being done by
>Laurie, but that's life. Get over it, or at least express yourself in a
>mature, civil manner and who knows---someone might actually listen.
Well, until the First Amendment is retracted, I'll continue to use
whatever manner I want to express my opinions. And people will
continue to read it.
In fact I consider this rather trivial: Laurie, using immature
reasoning, or me, using immature words. What's more important, the
message or the words?
>
>GrrRah
Token24601
>the contempt they deserve. No matter how inflammatory a topic there is never
>an excuse for resorting to cheap shots.
>JMHO
>Ally
Well, I'm all for cheap shots, but just calling somebody a bitch is, well,
lame.
You might as well parade ten year olds in and have them type "yuo=fagot" over
and over again.
But "AFan" committed the triple sin of using a sock (which is a cowardly way to
start shit with somebody), not having a point or valid argument beneath the
shit they are attempting to start, and finally, being boring in extremis as far
as the actual quality of the flamage goes.
As a Usenet Performance Artist, my sensibilities are offended.
Token
GrrRah
a guy wrote:
>
> And just how should I express my opinion? She's using immature
> reasoning, so it's unfair for me to use "immature" insults?
>
Against my better judgment, I'm going to respond to this, only because
it reminds me so much of my kids, God bless them. Let's see, now...your
argument consists of, "She started it, she was immature first." Good
one, but it loses points for originality.
>
> And I'm the immature one?
Well, actually, you said that not me, but if you say so.
>
> Well, until the First Amendment is retracted, I'll continue to use
> whatever manner I want to express my opinions.
Oh, the famous (or should that be infamous) 'First Amendment' defense.
Heard that one too.
And people will
> continue to read it.
Well, you can dream. But by all means, stamp your foot and demand that
people listen to you. It's probably a lot easier than writing a post
that expresses your ideas so well that people are interested in your opinions.
> In fact I consider this rather trivial: Laurie, using immature
> reasoning, or me, using immature words. What's more important, the
> message or the words?
I'm sorry---did you say something?
GrrRah
BUC252
Laurie's choice. As much as some of you may like the new characters, there are
those of us who do not. That's a fact of life. And with this change, we will
have a place to go that is free of the features we don't care for.
Consider, for sake of argument, an all-inclusive archive that chooses to switch
to no slash. That's the archivist's choice, and people who don't read slash
will be greatful because they don't have to pick through those stories to find
the ones they want to read.
This may surprise some, but I'm sure Laurie didn't make this decision just to
piss some people off! In the end, an archivist has to remain true to
themselves. Calling her, or any human being, names is uncalled for, immature,
and just plain rude. She's not asking to have *all* D stories removed from all
archives - just her own little corner of the world!
- Mary : )
a guy
<drj...@primus.com.au> wrote:
>a guy wrote from the depths of his socks:
>> Well, until the First Amendment is retracted, I'll continue to use
>> whatever manner I want to express my opinions. And people will
>> continue to read it.
>
>Question: Since the First Amendment is a civic right granted to American
>citizens, and since a sock is not a legal citizen of anywhere, and since
>USENET is arguably more like international waters than any kind of
>jurisidction - do you have recourse to the First Amendment at all?
>
Sorry, I like my privacy, and I don't like junk email. I already get
enough (50-75) messages a day. By putting my email address where it
is publicly availible is going to make it worse. Spammers use
software designed to search through newsgroup postings. It also
automatically removes/changes/adds parts of the address that is
designed to fool the software - which it doesn't.
Anyway, back to this topic - the 1st Amendment. It is fairly obvious
that I'm from the US by checking my message headers. And even if I
wasn't, the courts have said that you can't censor online content just
because you don't like what they're saying (I'm trying to find the
specific cases).
>Deslea, being facetious to the troll but also really curious what people
>think
>
>
Deslea R. Judd
> whatever manner I want to express my opinions. And people will
> continue to read it.
Question: Since the First Amendment is a civic right granted to American
citizens, and since a sock is not a legal citizen of anywhere, and since
USENET is arguably more like international waters than any kind of
jurisidction - do you have recourse to the First Amendment at all?
Deslea, being facetious to the troll but also really curious what people
think
a guy
wrote:
>a guy wrote:
>> Actually, I don't give a damn what someone chooses to *archive*, I
>> disagree with the decision to stop allowing Doggett/Reyes fic from
>> being posted to a list. (though she's now said that won't happen for
>> awhile until the auto-archive program get's setup). Here's how this
>> should have been done:
>>
>> Allow all fic to be posted to the XFC list (except bestality GA/DD
>> fics).
>>
>> Allow only what Laurie wants to be archived on Xemplary. As a
>> programmer, it is fairly simple to add a way to block certain fics
>> from being archinved - have the auto-archiving program search the
>> first 20 lines to check for Doggett, Reyes, S8, etc.
>>
>> This is the way it should have been done.
>
>And that's the way she decided to do it 3 days ago
>(without the auto-archiving).
>
I know. I'm saying that this whole mess could have been avoided if
she had done that in the first place - only archive the stories she
wants and allow all stories to be posted to XFC. So this case is moot
- I was just expressing my disgust at the way she had originally
chosen to do this and how it was done (sorry if the grammar doesn't
make much sense, it *is* 4:15AM where I'm at).
>Go check the thread titled "Xemplary Changes."
pam
> Actually, I don't give a damn what someone chooses to *archive*, I
> disagree with the decision to stop allowing Doggett/Reyes fic from
> being posted to a list. (though she's now said that won't happen for
> awhile until the auto-archive program get's setup). Here's how this
> should have been done:
>
> Allow all fic to be posted to the XFC list (except bestality GA/DD
> fics).
>
> Allow only what Laurie wants to be archived on Xemplary. As a
> programmer, it is fairly simple to add a way to block certain fics
> from being archinved - have the auto-archiving program search the
> first 20 lines to check for Doggett, Reyes, S8, etc.
>
> This is the way it should have been done.
And that's the way she decided to do it 3 days ago
(without the auto-archiving).
Go check the thread titled "Xemplary Changes."
a guy
>I know I haven't spoken up prior to now, but I have to thank and support
>Laurie's choice. As much as some of you may like the new characters, there are
>those of us who do not. That's a fact of life. And with this change, we will
>have a place to go that is free of the features we don't care for.
>
>Consider, for sake of argument, an all-inclusive archive that chooses to switch
>to no slash. That's the archivist's choice, and people who don't read slash
>will be greatful because they don't have to pick through those stories to find
>the ones they want to read.
>
Actually, I don't give a damn what someone chooses to *archive*, I
disagree with the decision to stop allowing Doggett/Reyes fic from
being posted to a list. (though she's now said that won't happen for
awhile until the auto-archive program get's setup). Here's how this
should have been done:
Allow all fic to be posted to the XFC list (except bestality GA/DD
fics).
Allow only what Laurie wants to be archived on Xemplary. As a
programmer, it is fairly simple to add a way to block certain fics
from being archinved - have the auto-archiving program search the
first 20 lines to check for Doggett, Reyes, S8, etc.
This is the way it should have been done.
a guy
wrote:
>
>
>a guy wrote:
>>
>
>> And just how should I express my opinion? She's using immature
>> reasoning, so it's unfair for me to use "immature" insults?
>>
>Against my better judgment, I'm going to respond to this, only because
>it reminds me so much of my kids, God bless them. Let's see, now...your
>argument consists of, "She started it, she was immature first." Good
>one, but it loses points for originality.
Ok, I'm just clarifying: So it's alright for her to use immature
reasoning, but not for me to use immature words?
>>
>> And I'm the immature one?
>
>Well, actually, you said that not me, but if you say so.
>
>>
>> Well, until the First Amendment is retracted, I'll continue to use
>> whatever manner I want to express my opinions.
>
>Oh, the famous (or should that be infamous) 'First Amendment' defense.
>Heard that one too.
>
> And people will
>> continue to read it.
>
>Well, you can dream. But by all means, stamp your foot and demand that
>people listen to you. It's probably a lot easier than writing a post
>that expresses your ideas so well that people are interested in your opinions.
>
>> In fact I consider this rather trivial: Laurie, using immature
>> reasoning, or me, using immature words. What's more important, the
>> message or the words?
>
>I'm sorry---did you say something?
>
Then why bother to respond? It seems to me that you're acting
childish now. Kinda like the pot calling the kettle black.
>GrrRah
Deslea R. Judd
> >Question: Since the First Amendment is a civic right granted to American
> >citizens, and since a sock is not a legal citizen of anywhere, and since
> >USENET is arguably more like international waters than any kind of
> >jurisidction - do you have recourse to the First Amendment at all?
a guy answered:
> Sorry, I like my privacy, and I don't like junk email...Spammers use
> software designed to search through newsgroup postings...
Yes, all right, I can accept that as fair.
> Anyway, back to this topic - the 1st Amendment. It is fairly obvious
> that I'm from the US by checking my message headers. And even if I
> wasn't, the courts have said that you can't censor online content just
> because you don't like what they're saying (I'm trying to find the
> specific cases).
True enough (though, btw, no-one contested your legal right to say it - you
brought that one up - I only played devil's advocate on the specific use of
the First Amendment, which IMO is pretty meaningless in a multinational
environment, in which only some people recognise it or are legally compelled
to recognise it). But whether the courts are actually qualified to make
that decision, since the servers which host USENET are located both within
and outside its jurisdictions, has never been definitively decided
(primarily because there is no court with sufficient jurisdiction to do so).
In my country, for instance, which hosts the server I read your post on,
ISPs are theoretically supposed to censor some kinds of transmissions and
can be held responsible for them (an equally ludicrous and unenforceable
law, btw - I'm not defending it). The truth is, no-one has much recourse to
law for online conduct except insofar as it pertains by direct relationship
to non-online-related law of some severity (stalking, malicious damage,
copyright, etc) because of its relative lack of jurisdictional delineation.
If I wanted to have you charged with improper language under an antiquated,
unused, but still-on-the-books law here, I probably couldn't; because you
didn't commit the offense in my jurisdiction; and I probably couldn't prove
which State you did it in so I probably couldn't do it in yours. If you
wanted to sue me for slander for calling you a sock, same principle applies.
Appealing to the law online is not *impossible*, but in most cases it is IMO
untenable (and in our case, of course, a little disproportionate, which is
why it's hypothetical). So we have to revert to commonsense and good
behaviour. That was really my point (directed in general, not just at you -
it's been percolating for a while).
I do worry about this insistence on "rights". This is a cultural issue, and
it's not necessarily your problem; but I'm putting it out there because it's
part of why I, personally, respond the way I do to these sorts of instances.
In my country (Australia), we don't have "rights" as you understand them in
the USA. We don't have a Bill Of Rights of any kind. Our constitution
pertains to the running of fair government, not to the individual. The
rights we have are those *implied* in our responsibilities and other
people's responsibilities to us (as determined by case law). We have most
of the same rights as US citizens, and a few you don't, and we don't have a
few you do. But we tend, culturally, to think differently about them. We
tend to think less about our rights and more about our responsibilities in
our decision-making. That's not to say we, or I personally, get it right
all the time - I've posted the odd ill-considered post now and then - but I
think it's a better way of dealing with it. It makes for sanity in an
environment which is fundamentally ungovernable.
What that means on the "you're a fucking bitch" front? Well, I disagree
with Laurie's original decision (and the spirit of it, too) probably as much
as you do. And for the record, I agree it was a decision made on immature
grounds. And I don't, necessarily, disagree that you have a basic
philosophical right to give your opinion in whatever language you choose.
But personally, I think that rights are not the only basis on which such a
decision should be made. Responsibility, commonsense, and dignity also come
into it, and my perception is that you didn't use those. I don't think you
should be drawn an quartered for it, because I think we've all posted
ill-advisedly one time or another; but I do think it was ill-advised.
Just my opinion....
Deslea (who should be cleaning the house and not arguing philosophy and
international law...)
a guy
wrote:
>a guy wrote:
I know. I'm saying that this whole mess could have been avoided if
she had done that in the first place - only archive the stories she
wants and allow all stories to be posted to XFC. So this case is moot
- I was just expressing my disgust at the way she had originally
chosen to do this and how it was done (sorry if the grammar doesn't
make much sense, it *is* 4:15AM where I'm at).