The Ordover Files
The Woodwards
Admittedly, I've followed the Battle of Ordover without catching every
post, response and counter-response, but I've picked up enough, I believe,
to make a few observations. Now, these are bound to snark some folks off,
but... oh, well!
First off, and this is PURELY my opinion, Mr. Ordover seems to be kind
of a jerk. Rude, arrogant and generally unpleasant, insofar as his posts to
this newsgroup are concerned. Now, I'm kind of a jerk, myself, but I try
not to go around deliberately antagonizing people, which is what appears to
be happening here. Irrespective of Mr. Ordover's accomplishments in
legitimate literary circles, he definitely has a great deal to learn about
Netiquette. Namely, don't make an ass out of yourself, even if others are
doing so. And when you start stomping around in a newsgroup acting like the
big fish in the little pond, it's called being a troll and it's akin to
farting during a photo op with the President; you aren't going to impress
anyone and the negative effect on your reputation is fairly significant.
Secondly, I think both Mr. Ordover and his detractors are forgetting
what fanfiction IS and what it is NOT. Folks, fanfic is FANFIC. It has
about as much bearing on legitimate literature as JUGGS does to TIME on the
magazine racks. Fanfic is written by fans for the pleasure of oneself and
other fans. And that's IT. There's no great imperative attached to it, nor
greater significance due to its intimate connection to those who love the
source material.
This does NOT mean that it's a complete waste of time and effort,
however. Writing is writing and the only way to learn HOW to write is to
WRITE. Those with the "gift" will wear their training wheels, shuttling
Mulder and Scully (or whomever) around a hand-crafted plotline and then move
on to whatever else. The practice is worth it, the positive feedback from
readers, whether professional or not, feeds the spark of will and helps it
grow. And that spark needs a LOT of help. Even a kind word from Grandma is
a boon. Those without the "gift" will linger in the fanfic circle forever
and, frankly, if that's where they're happy, then that's where they belong.
Is the majority of fanfic trash? Yes, it is. Cliched to the extreme,
grammatically incorrect and, sometimes, simply and generically ROTTEN. Many
stories smack of wish-fulfillment, personal hurts and insecurities related
to life, work or sex. Some appear to have been compiled merely to provide a
textbook example for the heading: STORIES WRITTEN BY THE UTTERLY CLUELESS.
But is it without merit? No, because once again, writing is writing and to
learn, one must DO.
It's like building muscles. If someone wants to get stronger, they
exercise. Maybe they lift weights or practice Tai Chi. Or maybe they do
good, old-fashioned calisthenics for a half-hour a day. Whatever the
technique used to achieve the goal, that's fine. It's the end result that's
important.
Mr. Ordover seems to believe that one should hit the legit market and
try, try and try again until one ultimately succeeds or fails. That's one
way to do it and if you feel that's for you, then for God's sake, GO DO IT!
The world needs more (talented) writers, even if only 5% of the population
is reading books, or whatever the statistic was. I have to point out,
though, that this is only ONE WAY to learn the craft and I also have to
point out that only the cosmetic nature of the practice is changed. The
bottom line is still the same: write and write and WRITE. To take the
attitude that it is somehow "nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and
arrows of outrageous fortune" than to do what's right for YOU... that's the
sign of someone who doesn't want to understand that everyone comes to the
craft in their own way.
This attitude continues. In one post, Mr. Ordover said that feedback
from non-professional authors won't teach a writer how to become a pro. Of
course, he said it in a very prickly and unpleasant way, but that's
basically what he said. Simply put, he's WRONG.
A person doesn't have to know how to write in order to be grabbed by a
great story. Prose has a way of connecting with ANYONE if it's crafted with
skill. So bounce your writing off anybody you can get to sit still long
enough to read it. Start with relatives and friends, work your way up to
(gasp) a more-or-less stranger. Quiz them until they're ready to beat you
senseless with your manuscript. Find out what works and what doesn't. Chip
and shape and hone until you MAKE THAT CONNECTION. There's nothing
"professional" about that response at all. And if you're not making that
connection, regardless of who's reading it, you're not ready. When you DO,
though, then you have something special. You have the "gift."
You'll notice that I always put quotes around the word "gift." That's
because I believe that good writing really IS a skill that can be learned.
Perfection of that skill can be worked toward in any arena, with any
audience, using ANY tools (including fanfic) and the ultimate reward is the
knowledge that "hot damn, they really LIKED that baby!" Money's nice, too,
but I don't think any but the most callow of authors really writes just for
the money. Writers write because they must write and they write to be read.
Read and ENJOYED.
I would urge anyone who's getting a head of steam built up over Mr.
Ordover's provocations to calm down. He's an editor and his job is to put
the weed-whacker to the authors, so it's within his province to be as
annoying as a set of nails on a chalkboard. Right now, as I pointed out
before, he's playing big fish in the little pond and if that's fun for him,
then fine. For God's sake, don't start a holy war over FANFIC! At best,
fanfic is a harmless and sometimes useful diversion. At worst, it's a
productivity-sucking nightmare of sixteen-part relationshipper
soap-operatics like "Mr. and Mrs. Mulder Do Their Laundry."
If Mr. Ordover offends you, there are a couple of options. You can
complain, first off. I did. You've been reading it all this time.
However, the SECOND option is probably the most effective: don't buy Pocket
Books. Get your friends not to buy Pocket Books. Stop your family members
from buying Pocket Books. Talk to total strangers in the bookstore and
convince THEM not to buy Pocket Books.
You see, these lousy "novels" that get published are like word-popcorn.
They are weightless, substance-free and are useful to publishing entities
only as long as they are profitable. They are, perhaps, even worse than
fanfictions in that they are oftentimes written by authors who probably
COULD write far more interesting prose of their own design if they weren't
wasting their time (and collecting a paycheck) to provide the further
adventures of Ace Schmidlap, Intergalactic Cool Guy as seen on CBS.
Mr. Ordover and those like him are EMPLOYED because people like you and
I buy the books. I've picked up my share of junk novels. Sure, I have.
And right now everyone at Big Publishing Central(tm) is probably enjoying a
big laugh at this newsgroup's expense due to all the silly posturing and
indefensible poetics surrounding the inviolable Art of Fanfic. They know
that the majority of the posts are worthless, much like the majority of the
very tie-in books THEY PUBLISH. Only THEY figured out how to play the
inside game and make money doing it, while you poor dopes fritter away your
energies.
So stick it to them in such a way that they can begin to understand your
frustration.
But, whatever you do, don't stop writing. The craft of prose is the
craft of immortality. You won't get there with your scintillating novella
of "Mulder and Scully vs. the Oogie-Boogie Monster," but the familiar faces
and voices of well-loved characters might very well provide the impetus to
create those that are new, but still possessed of greatness.
Or maybe your writing will always suck. It could happen.
==========
"Great editors do not discover nor produce great authors;
great authors create and produce great publishers."
-- John Farrar
"What Happens in Book Publishing"
Sheare Bliss
ImXFScully
may have some validity, but he's applying it to the wrong argument (which he
incidentally insists upon starting and restarting himself.)
Thanks for saying it and saying it well --
Amy
Maureen O'Brien
done, and vanished from the slushpile of history a week ago?
Maureen, not sure
ImXFScully
done, and vanished from the slushpile of history a week ago? <<
As he posted another snotty rebuke of fanfiction today, I guess not -- though
hopefully, his character's well-understood enough by now around here to prevent
people from worrying too much about him in future.
Amy
John Ordover
No, I haven't posted a single rebuke of fan fiction. What I've done
is repeatedly say the following, which for unknown reasons people are
taking as a rebuke of fan fiction:
>>Th
e only valid definition of "professional is getting paid for what
you do.
This is not a quality issue. Im certain you'll agree with me that the
vast majority of books, movies, television shows tend to be average or
below average. Yet the people who write them are professionals
-because they get paid.- What I am discussing is -only- the path
you'll have to take if you want to become a regularly paid
professional writer.
Would you hire a lawyer whose professional training came from posting
lots of "fan fiction" legal briefs to a newsgroup containing no
professional lawyers, and who had been guided by
those non-lawyers in structuring their briefs?
If you don't want to be a pro writer, more power to you in whatever
career goal you chose. If you do, stop writing fan fiction and find
out what the real path to a pro writing career is.<<
R. Scott Carr
> No, I haven't posted a single rebuke of fan fiction. What I've done
> is repeatedly say the following, which for unknown reasons people are
> taking as a rebuke of fan fiction:
This guy reminds me of the story about the woman watching a military parade. As her
son's squad passed by, she said, "Oh, look, they're all out of step except for my
Johnny."
Mr. Ordover, get a clue. You make outrageous (and erroneous) statements, you give
bad advice, and you insult people. On top of all that, you act as though you're
making some contribution to the world at large. If 95 percent of the reactions you
get are negative, think about why that might be.
And after you've done so, please don't tell us about your ruminations.
--
Scott Carr
http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/7503
The Woodwards
>>done, and vanished from the slushpile of history a week ago? <<
>
>>As he posted another snotty rebuke of fanfiction today, I guess not.
>
>No, I haven't posted a single rebuke of fan fiction. What I've done
>is repeatedly say the following, which for unknown reasons people are
>taking as a rebuke of fan fiction:
>
>This is not a quality issue. Im certain you'll agree with me that the
>vast majority of books, movies, television shows tend to be average or
>below average.
And what, exactly, is your point? I notice that you've chosen to pick
some vaguely-related portion of the thread to respond to rather than to
strike at the heart of the matter: the craft of writing and how it is
learned. Whether 5% of Americans don't read books or whether the vast
majority of creative media is substandard or yadda-yadda-yadda, it STILL
doesn't approach anything resembling a SUBJECT.
I notice, while perusing your posts in detail via DejaNews, that you
mutate your approach to the subject until you've discovered the most
contrary position possible. First it's "why not be a leader and write REAL
fiction for a professional line of books like we publish here at Pocket" and
then it's "you know, the vast majority of stuff sucks, but AT LEAST the
writers are being paid for it!" Are you saying that professional writers
are no good at what they do or that no one cares if they're any good, or
what?
It seems to me, that if the so-called "professional" fiction is garbage,
then what difference does it make if a fanfiction author never hones their
craft to an acceptable degree? And if no one in the reading public gives a
damn about quality writing, then what's the point of trying to get any
better in the first place? You've contradicted yourself repeatedly, saying
that there's some ephemeral "professional standard" to be achieved that
simply doing learning the old-fashioned way (i.e. WRITING) won't bring you.
Then, in almost the same breath/post, you say that the publishing world is
filled with junk.
Please, please, PLEASE make up your mind.
As a side note, I'd like to indicate to anyone else reading out there
that the above quotations attributed to Mr Ordover are not direct quotes,
but are sufficiently dense enough to actually HAVE been said by Mr. Ordover.
>...the people who write them are professionals
>-because they get paid...
Being a writer is not about being PAID. Being a writer is about being
READ, perhaps even read only by oneself. Defining an art form -- which is,
in fact, what literature IS -- in purely financial terms is almost
criminally philistine. A paycheck does not equal skill as a literary artist
or true success as a writer. A paycheck is a paycheck. WRITING is writing.
When these things coincide, that's good, but the essential part of this
equation, the writing, is still at the heart of the matter.
>Would you hire a lawyer whose professional training came from posting
>lots of "fan fiction" legal briefs to a newsgroup containing no
>professional lawyers, and who had been guided by
>those non-lawyers in structuring their briefs?
Would you consider a person who studied law in a prison and successfully
completed the bar to be somehow less qualified than a person who attended
law school? The answer, of course, would be "no." Successful sales come to
writers who produce top-quality work, regardless of where they received
their training. This subject was broached in my original post, which you
seemed to have overlooked.
Whether the craft is honed in a classroom, at an editor's side or behind
a keyboard posting fanfiction, writing is writing and skill is skill. Those
able to forge a connection with a reader, who have an active and engaging
fictive voice and who choose to pursue publication will succeed as
"professionals," making money for what they do. Any editor who turned down
someone's well-written and eminently salable manuscript because the author
once wrote fanfiction would be pounding the bricks two days after that
author made a splashy sale to another publisher.
>If you don't want to be a pro writer, more power to you in whatever
>career goal you chose. If you do, stop writing fan fiction and find
>out what the real path to a pro writing career is.<<
As discussed in the original note that began "The Ordover Files" thread,
there is no REAL way to become a "pro writer" beyond writing, writing and
then sitting down to write some more. It takes practice, it takes
dedication and it takes time. Any writer, professional or otherwise, who
takes their craft seriously knows that. How and where an author learns
their craft is immaterial.
Lisby
> >...the people who write them are professionals
> >-because they get paid...
> Being a writer is not about being PAID. Being a writer is about being
> READ, perhaps even read only by oneself. Defining an art form -- which is,
> in fact, what literature IS -- in purely financial terms is almost
> criminally philistine. A paycheck does not equal skill as a literary artist
> or true success as a writer. A paycheck is a paycheck. WRITING is writing.
> When these things coincide, that's good, but the essential part of this
> equation, the writing, is still at the heart of the matter.
>
> there is no REAL way to become a "pro writer" beyond writing, writing and
> then sitting down to write some more. It takes practice, it takes
> dedication and it takes time. Any writer, professional or otherwise, who
> takes their craft seriously knows that. How and where an author learns
> their craft is immaterial.
Thank you for making an incredible amount of sense.
And Mr. Ordover, if you're listening, I *am* a professional writer. I get paid
a full-time living for my words. If I had not started off writing fanfic as a
teenager 20 years ago, I would never be a professional writer. The constant
practice of writing stories for others to read garnered positive feedback and
helped me hone my skills as much as my later journalistic education. And I'm
here now because I *want* to be--because I love to experiment with new styles
and to learn things from others. You'd be surprised what these folk can teach
you. They've made me a stronger fiction writer and allowed me to write for the
unadulterated joy of it without reference to deadline or assigned topic.
In short, we're here to learn and have fun. Join in or stop trying to make
people feel bad for practicing something they love.
Lisby
Alli
>
> Mr. Ordover --
>
> It's terribly kind of you to try and correct our skewed priorities, but we
> seem to be perversely resisting your attempts to save us from our dreadful
> judgement. Obviously we don't deserve the time and care you've lavished on
> us.
>
> Have you given other fan fiction-based newsgroups the benefit of your wisdom?
> If not, what has ATXC done to deserve your especial attention? While I am
> not a person who makes a living from selling fiction, I am acquainted with
> the publishing world, even with editors. I understand how unique your
> interest in us is. What a generous thing it is to sacrifice time that could
> be spent searching for marketable talent in order to minister to the
> perennially unprofitable.
>
> However, I think your work here is done. You have cast your seeds upon the
> unyeilding clay, and now must leave with a heavy heart.
>
> Some of us will remember the great-souled altruism of your acts! Thank you,
> Mr. Ordover, New York Editor from Pocket Books. Thank you. Thank you.
>
> --Ophelia,
I don't think ANYBODY has said it better. I don't
think there's even anything I can add. Applause,
applause.
Alli
bliss
guy has less of a life than you would imagine a 'professional' living in New
York having.
bliss
Maureen O'Brien <mob...@dnaco.net> wrote:
>But why are we saying it? I mean, wasn't the whole Ordover thing gone,
>done, and vanished from the slushpile of history a week ago?
>
>Maureen, not sure
"I am not an angry girl/but it seems like I've got
everyone fooled/everytime I say something they find
hard to hear/they chalk it up to my anger/and never
to their own fear- Ani DiFranco
"'snuff ed"
"but how often is too often?"
ophel...@my-dejanews.com
It's terribly kind of you to try and correct our skewed priorities, but we
seem to be perversely resisting your attempts to save us from our dreadful
judgement. Obviously we don't deserve the time and care you've lavished on
us.
Have you given other fan fiction-based newsgroups the benefit of your wisdom?
If not, what has ATXC done to deserve your especial attention? While I am
not a person who makes a living from selling fiction, I am acquainted with
the publishing world, even with editors. I understand how unique your
interest in us is. What a generous thing it is to sacrifice time that could
be spent searching for marketable talent in order to minister to the
perennially unprofitable.
However, I think your work here is done. You have cast your seeds upon the
unyeilding clay, and now must leave with a heavy heart.
Some of us will remember the great-souled altruism of your acts! Thank you,
Mr. Ordover, New York Editor from Pocket Books. Thank you. Thank you.
--Ophelia,
Who has never had an editor from a publishing company seek her work out for
review before.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
JourneyToX
it was fairly apt:
Listening to Ordover talk about writing is like listening to a whore talk about
sex.
Sure, lots of technical knowledge, but the passion for the subject is
completely lost in the financial exchange.
A whore can teach you to fuck, but only you and your lover(s) can teach you to
make love.
What do you want to do?
*~*~*~*~*~*
Journ...@aol.com, BYFP, not BOFQ
MORE Skinner, Save Spender, Can Kersh, Flush Fowley.
"God Bless America! Now get your asses out of here!" 1939!Skinner, Triangle
"Oh yeahhhh!" Mitch Pileggi, Season 3 Gag Reels. :-)
~*~*~*~*~
Daybreaq
>From: Ord...@aol.com (John Ordover)
>Date: Sun, Dec 20, 1998 13:50 EST
>Message-id: <367d4651...@news.mindspring.com>
>
>
First he says:
>This is not a quality issue.
Then IN THE SAME POST:
>Would you hire a lawyer whose professional training came from posting
>lots of "fan fiction" legal briefs to a newsgroup containing no
>professional lawyers, and who had been guided by
>those non-lawyers in structuring their briefs?
This has got to be one of the most idiotic analogies I've ever seen. When I
need a lawyer, I need someone who knows the law and therefore her training is
an issue for me. I need to know that her briefs are structured properly, the
way lawyers are supposed to structure briefs; because I don't know the first
thing about how a brief looks let alone how it should be specifically
structured. Otherwise, I may lose a lot of money ... or end up in prison.:o
Her training is a direct factor in her overall *quality* as a lawyer.
I do know a good story when I read it though. I don't care whether other
writers think it's good. I don't need assurances by any state licensing boards
that the writer has been properly trained. When I read a story, all I care
about is that I've been entertained or in the very best cases, I've learned
something and my life has been enriched. I don't really give a flying fig
about the writer's training or how she came to write that story. That's why
they don't have resumes on book jackets.
Now you may turn around and say * you* care about that writer's resume
because you are an editor. Wonderful!!! Go find a Ng for editors or for writers
wanting to know what an editor is looking for if you want to volunteer that
advice. Try to understand this Mr. Ordover: people (even those who may write
for a living as well) come to this Ng for the leisure activity of writing and
reading fanfiction. That's it. No one wants career advice here. No one here
wants to be berated that the leisure activity they happen to enjoy is a waste
of time. No one here wants to be told they lack initiative, creativity, and
leadership qualities because of the leisure activity they practice. You say
you will never "get" why people like to read and write fanfiction. Fine, then
go somewhere else; because this Ng happens to be for people who do "get" it!
Teddi
Shanna...@pnx.com
>><HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: The Ordover Files
Now, I agree with everything you've said, Teddi, and it's much the
same as I and others have said. But for the record, this whole thing
started when someone posted part of an interview that Ordover gave in
Entertainment Weekly. He didn't post those comments here himself, but
he has most certainly posted comments trying to defend his belief that
if you want to be a paid professional writer, you shouldn't waste your
time with fanfic.
Probably the majority of us, or half anyway, I'd say, don't have any
particular burning desire to be paid writers (some of us are, anyway,
though), we just want to be writers whose work is READ. And we have a
much better chance of accomplishing that by posting fanfic on the Net
or having it published in a fanzine, than trying to churn out
hackneyed, formulaic prose, dumbed-down for a particular market.
There's only a handful of really good, paid writers and they make very
good money at it.
In fanfic, we write what we want. We may take input from readers, or
we may not. The only ones we truly must please are ourselves, but it's
pretty damn nice if others like our work, too. And the feedback is our
pay.
> Now you may turn around and say * you* care about that writer's resume
>because you are an editor. Wonderful!!! Go find a Ng for editors or for writers
>wanting to know what an editor is looking for if you want to volunteer that
>advice. Try to understand this Mr. Ordover: people (even those who may write
>for a living as well) come to this Ng for the leisure activity of writing and
>reading fanfiction. That's it. No one wants career advice here. No one here
>wants to be berated that the leisure activity they happen to enjoy is a waste
>of time. No one here wants to be told they lack initiative, creativity, and
>leadership qualities because of the leisure activity they practice. You say
>you will never "get" why people like to read and write fanfiction. Fine, then
>go somewhere else; because this Ng happens to be for people who do "get" it!
>
> Teddi
>
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Shanna...@pnx.com
debate with him.
On Mon, 21 Dec 1998 04:52:43 GMT, ophel...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>Mr. Ordover --
>
>Have you given other fan fiction-based newsgroups the benefit of your wisdom?
>If not, what has ATXC done to deserve your especial attention? While I am
>not a person who makes a living from selling fiction, I am acquainted with
>the publishing world, even with editors. I understand how unique your
>interest in us is. What a generous thing it is to sacrifice time that could
>be spent searching for marketable talent in order to minister to the
>perennially unprofitable.
>
>--Ophelia,
>Who has never had an editor from a publishing company seek her work out for
>review before.
>
---------------------------------------------------
John Ordover
need to read any farther. If you write fan ficiton as a hobby, have
fun. This post isn't aimed at you.
On Sun, 20 Dec 1998 18:47:50 -0500, "The Woodwards"
<thewoo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Being a writer is not about being PAID. Being a writer is about
being
READ, perhaps even read only by oneself. Defining an art form --
which is,
in fact, what literature IS -- in purely financial terms is almost
criminally philistine. A paycheck does not equal skill as a literary
artist
or true success as a writer. A paycheck is a paycheck. WRITING is
writing.
When these things coincide, that's good, but the essential part of
this
equation, the writing, is still at the heart of the matter.<<
Being a
=
professional writer
=
is -of course- about being paid. That' the definition of the
difference between amateur and professional -- at least according to
the old-style rules of the olympic committee -- that's why Jim
Thorpe's medals were taken away - he wasn't an amateur =becuase he'd
gotten paid=
It is certainly better to write than not to write, if you want to be a
pro writer. But
If you want to be -any kind- of pro writer, then it is important to
practice -exactly the kind of writing- that you'll want to be doing in
your profession. Crudest example, poetry won't teach you prose, and
prose won't teach you poetry. Scriptwriting won't teach you novel
writing and vice-versa. Writing detective stories won't teach you how
to write romances, writing science fiction won't teach you writing
mainstream thrillers (which is why Michael Crichton has been able to
sell trillions of books using cliche science fiction themes, because
he knows how to structure them as mainstream thrillers)
, and so on and so on.
Similarly, writing fan fiction won't teach you what you need to know
to write professionally, not even in media-tie-ins, since one of the
things you'll have to learn is how to write within strict guidelines.
And for original fiction, the most important skill to pick up is how
to introduce brand new charcters in a brand new world while
simultaeneously getting good story started. And fan fiction will
never teach you that.
I continue this posting of mine because I have met far, far too many
people who thought fan fiction would be their stepping stone to
original or media-tie-in publication, and have been crushed to find
out the reality. Again, if you only write fan fiction for fun, have
at it. But if you want to be pro writer, spend your time writing
exactly what you intend to write professionally.
Sheare Bliss
bliss
--
MERRICAT K
>First off, if you don't want to be a professional writer, there is no
>need to read any farther. If you write fan ficiton as a hobby, have
>fun. This post isn't aimed at you.
A nice disclaimer. If someone barged into your home & started off by saying,
"If you're not interested in buying aluminium siding, there's no need for you
to listen to what I'm going to say. But I'm damned well going to say it, even
though you didn't ask me, and have made it quite clear you aren't interested,"
that would be ok too, wouldn't it?
Merricat, who is hanging onto her amateur standing so she can write for the US
Olympic Writing Team in 2000
The Woodwards
in this post.
> Being a writer is not about being PAID. Being a writer is about
>being
>READ, perhaps even read only by oneself. Defining an art form --
>which is,
>in fact, what literature IS -- in purely financial terms is almost
>criminally philistine. A paycheck does not equal skill as a literary
>artist
>or true success as a writer. A paycheck is a paycheck. WRITING is
>writing.
>When these things coincide, that's good, but the essential part of
>this
>equation, the writing, is still at the heart of the matter.<<
>
>
>Being a
>
>=
>professional writer
>=
>
>is -of course- about being paid.
So you continue to say, though you also equate -- in the same post to
which I am responding -- professionalism to indicate the ability to write
within carefully-defined guidelines, essentially defining professionalism as
the ability to distinguish between writing what's GOOD and writing what is
required. As I've said before (and what you've, once again, completely
ignored), writing is writing and pay is pay. Skill as an author has nothing
to do with money. And, I'd venture to say, professionalism also has little
or nothing to do with a bank deposit.
You may place great emphasis on the paycheck as the prime indicator of
literary success, but you've also acknowledged elsewhere that the vast
majority of "professional" writing is substandard. So why would anyone
serious about their craft want to exchange their desire to become an
excellent writer in order to follow your ill-defined advice on the outside
chance that some OTHER editor would overlook their deficiencies? I doubt
that saying, "Well, John Ordover told me that being any good wasn't the
point. May I have a check, please? I want to be a 'professional' writer."
>That' the definition of the
>difference between amateur and professional -- at least according to
>the old-style rules of the olympic committee -- that's why Jim
>Thorpe's medals were taken away - he wasn't an amateur =becuase he'd
>gotten paid=
I'm becoming very amused by your inexplicable analogies. The removal of
Jim Thorpe's medals is an event shrouded in controversy and is widely
considered to be a black mark on the history of the Olympic Committee. Poor
decisionmaking on their part led to the 1982 decision to RETURN those
medals, so I'd suggest taking a continuing-education course at a local
community college to get you up to speed with current events. Using that
incident as some sort of definition is flawed, precisely because the
judgment of history has been passed in this case.
At any rate, our digression into professional/athletic sports aside (and
I'd like to point out that the so-called "amateur" athletes of the Eastern
Bloc were all paid professionals), you're now twisting your own words. On
one hand you insist on connecting the professional to the ideals of solid
prose but now, pinned down on THAT issue, you intend to weasel out under the
"paycheck" clause. Since neither of these arguments have any validity, as
we've seen amply demonstrated over the last few days, what gives?
>If you want to be -any kind- of pro writer, then it is important to
>practice -exactly the kind of writing- that you'll want to be doing in
>your profession.
You are incorrect. Please move to the rear of the classroom. Please
review my previous posts on this subject. In the interests of newcomers to
this thread, I'll recap:
Writing is writing is writing. Good writers can write anything.
Writers BECOME good writers by writing. Writing is writing is writing.
Thank you.
>...which is why Michael Crichton has been able to
>sell trillions of books using cliche science fiction themes, because
>he knows how to structure them as mainstream thrillers.
Which is EXACTLY why Crichton can do what he does. Crichton WRITES. He
understands the universal concepts of plot structure and has developed an
active and dynamic voice with which to communicate with his reading
audience. You've hit upon the perfect illustration of what I've been saying
all along: writing is writing is writing and good writers, regardless, can
write anything.
Michael Crichton did not cut his teeth under the wing of a kindly editor
from Pocket Books. I might remind you that he was a MEDICAL STUDENT, which
is far and away from the arts. He developed his craft through the method I
have described at least three times in preceding days: he wrote. Literary
skills can be applied on any level, in any genre, so long as the author has
the practice and the confidence to use them.
>And for original fiction, the most important skill to pick up is how
>to introduce brand new charcters in a brand new world while
>simultaeneously getting good story started. And fan fiction will
>never teach you that.
As I wrote in the original post of this thread, fanfiction is not meant
to teach the skill of new-character introduction. Fanfiction, while
primarily being a diversion, can also be a valuable training-wheels tool,
teaching its authors how to engage a reading audience, construct a
well-paced and effective plot and how to best develop a distinctive voice.
These are the first and best elements of the writing craft and can be
applied anywhere, to any kind of fiction. Any effective editor will quickly
acknowledge that or, as stated previously, be out of a job later on for
lacking the perception to select top-notch authors.
>...if you want to be pro writer, spend your time writing
>exactly what you intend to write professionally.
I agree. Writers should go out and write prose immediately. In
whatever form, shape and subject they desire, they should write prose.
Your interest in cultivating future paid writers is obvious, but your
approach is decidedly twisted. Discouraging writers from writing is no way
to go about it, regardless of what you may think of their means of practice.
I'll echo the thoughts of another respondee to this thread and urge you
to take some constructive action in this newsgroup beyond floating spurious
and poorly-spelled analogies. Why not post the bible for the Trek and XF
fiction lines, either here or on the Pocket web site? Why not place the
strictures directly before those who'd make the best use of it? It would
more than likely save a great deal of time for you, having authors who
willingly self-train in the manner of writing you desire.
Bringing up, time and again, the idea that professional writers in the
ST and XF lines must follow the strictures laid down by
Paramount/Fox/whomever, and then failing to follow through with SPECIFICS is
more of a disservice than a help, even if you are "being cruel to be kind."
Show you're serious about building an effective set of new authors and put
those suckers where everyone can see them.
And in the meantime, do ME a favor and spell-check those posts before
they go out. :)
Teddi Litman
merr...@aol.com (MERRICAT K) wrote:
>
>Merricat, who is hanging onto her amateur standing so she can write for the
US
>Olympic Writing Team in 2000
ROTFLMAO!!!!
Teddi Litman
Shanna...@pnx.com wrote:
>On 21 Dec 1998 04:35:33 GMT, dayb...@aol.com (Daybreaq) wrote:
>
>>><HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: The Ordover Files
>Now, I agree with everything you've said, Teddi, and it's much the
>same as I and others have said. But for the record, this whole thing
>started when someone posted part of an interview that Ordover gave in
>Entertainment Weekly. He didn't post those comments here himself, but
>he has most certainly posted comments trying to defend his belief that
>if you want to be a paid professional writer, you shouldn't waste your
>time with fanfic.
I'm well aware of this; and certainly I'm not questioning his desire to come
in here and try to explain statements of his that were posted here. My main
problem with him is what he did afterwards. He *started* a brand new thread
with a very condescending post "asking" (Though he later admitted that he
would never "get" it, proving he really wasn't interested in an answer.) why
fanfic writers choose to be followers instead of leaders. I saw this post as
really only a slightly more carefully worded "lament" of the typical troll
who wanders in here every once in a while. (i.e. Get a life losers! You're
all just plagairizing anyway!) In his latest, he compared fanfic writers
with criminals who are posing as lawyers. At every turn, he claims to have
nothing against fanfic or fanfic writers yet he always ends up slamming them
in the very next breath. I love the fanfic writers here; they bring me a
little light at the end of the day. So I'm damn sure going to defend them
against some swelled-headed "pro" who seems to want to make them feel their
highly appreciated efforts here are worthless.
Teddi
Alli
>
> The Trek guidelines are availible at www.startrekbooks.com, under
> "editor's logs" and then "Guidelines" in the nav bar. Don't know
> where or how the X-Files rules are posted -- all I've known about the
> X-files rules I've learned by chatting with the authors who write the
> books.
>
> But in both cases, the rules come down to this:
>
> 1) don't flesh out the backgrounds of the characters
>
> 2) don't make permanent or radical changes to the characters or the
> universe in the course of the book
>
> 3) don't go into the book with the intention of correcting any errors
> you perceive in the way the character are presented on the show, or
> with the intention of "un-doing" some plot-happening you didn't like.
>
> Now, anyone reading the Trek novels knows we push these guidelines as
> hard as we can, and can sometimes get special permission (for
> instance, Spock will be getting married in VULCAN'S HEART next
> summer). But when we do those things, it's always with experiencedpro
> authors and/or people who've been working with us a while.
>
> Further, when you're coming in off the street to the Trek novels
> program, it's better not to bring back a guest star or pick up a
> continuity hook, for two reasons:
>
> 1) We may well already be doing that character/that hook already. I
> got three "Harry Mudd comes back in an Android Body" proposals from
> three of my regulars in the same week.:)
>
> 2) What we really want to see is what -you- can think of that we
> couldn't have. We can always bring back Vash/Trelane/Rasmussen --
> returning to an old storyline is easy. Show me what -you- can come up
> with for the gang to deal with that no one but you could have thought
> of, and I'll be impressed.:)
>
> Will that do for starters?
Yes.
See, *this* we can deal with. I see we finally
got through to you, Mr. Ordover. Now maybe we can
discuss these PROFESSIONAL guidelines instead of
having a nasty little discussion about fanfic.
This is where you, a pro, can come in handy.
Alli
John Ordover
JourneyToX
up with something better than boring stories? What was he thinking of when he
wrote Antibodies? It read like he was thinking of what brand of toothpaste to
pick up at Walgreen's.
Guidelines should inspire a good writer to work within them and yet still soar,
making the guidelines invisible to the reader because the reader is caught up
in a good story well told.
EVEN GIVEN the guidelines, some of the best fanfic writers could do much
better. Anderson's living off his reputation while some here on the Net are
making one, charging nothing, and doing better.
Who has integrity in that situation? Who is the better writer?
The answer to both questions is the same individual. Not the one getting paid,
unfortunately.
I would've paid money to read anything by Liz Ann and Elise, Lisby's Vestigy,
anything by jordan or Kronos, Dasha's Red V, anything by Annie
Sewell-Jennings. We're privileged to have them for free. The only coin I can
repay them in is praise for their work. I know these people, if they so choose,
will have a professional writing life beyond fanfic. Ordover grossly
underestimates their capabilities.
The folks who publish the X-Files "professional" media tie ins are going to
have to work much harder to get my next dollar. I'm not buying anything blindly
(OK, I admit, I'll buy the audiobooks if narrated by Pileggi).
Now that we've discussed the failings of what has been professionally produced
as far as X-Files media tie-in novels, can we talk about the conflict of
interest between those promoting pro fic and fanfic? Can we FINALLY get to that
point? Huh, John?
Shanna...@pnx.com
character interrelationships that we love so well in fanfic, but it
was wonderfully imaginative and a well-plotted adventure. I reviewed
this for the paper and gave it good marks.
On 23 Dec 1998 05:10:42 GMT, journ...@aol.com (JourneyToX) wrote:
>Explain why Kevin J Anderson stays within the X-Files guidelines and can't come
>up with something better than boring stories? What was he thinking of when he
>wrote Antibodies? It read like he was thinking of what brand of toothpaste to
>pick up at Walgreen's.
---------------------------------------------------
Pyrephox18
>character interrelationships that we love so well in fanfic, but it
>was wonderfully imaginative and a well-plotted adventure. I reviewed
>this for the paper and gave it good marks.
Wow, and I thought I was the only one who liked it. It was an interesting
X-File, I thought, and I liked the characterization. It wasn't as good as some
fanfic, but considering the guidelines authors must be under, it was a darn
good effort.
Pyrephox- who also liked "Ground Zero" for the glimpse into Activist!Scully.
Filk-lover, Fanficker, Gamer, Happy Little Pagan (tm), X-Phile, Pezhead, ect.
-
Blue Moon Madness: PbEM Fantasy RPG
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/2623/BMB.html
Houng Te
(Shanna...@pnx.com) writes:
> "Antibodies" was a very good X-File story. No, there were none of the
> character interrelationships that we love so well in fanfic, but it
> was wonderfully imaginative and a well-plotted adventure. I reviewed
> this for the paper and gave it good marks.
me a bit in the beginning, but other than that, it was a good story, both
were neat cases. My sister and my friends like it as well. They can't
read fanfic for some reason though. They're more of a case focused crowd,
and I would be one too if that didn't mean missing out on so much stories
that featured Krycek, Skinner, Pendrell, and company. :)
John Ordover
>
>And Mr. Ordover, if you're listening, I *am* a professional writer. I get paid
>a full-time living for my words.
Professional -fiction writer?- Published where?
John Ordover
>Quoting Mr. Ordover:
>
>>First off, if you don't want to be a professional writer, there is no
>>need to read any farther. If you write fan ficiton as a hobby, have
>>fun. This post isn't aimed at you.
>
>A nice disclaimer. If someone barged into your home & started off by saying,
>"If you're not interested in buying aluminium siding, there's no need for you
>to listen to what I'm going to say. But I'm damned well going to say it, even
>though you didn't ask me, and have made it quite clear you aren't interested,"
>that would be ok too, wouldn't it?
>
>
>Merricat, who is hanging onto her amateur standing so she can write for the US
>Olympic Writing Team in 2000
Silly analogy, when the next post/thread is just a click away.
John Ordover
>Explain why Kevin J Anderson stays within the X-Files guidelines and can't come
>up with something better than boring stories? What was he thinking of when he
>wrote Antibodies? It read like he was thinking of what brand of toothpaste to
>pick up at Walgreen's.
>
The answer is, because you found something boring didn't mean that it
was a bad boo (are there any X-Files episodes that you didn't like but
others did, and vice versa? You may just not be the target audience
for an X-Files media book, or may be looking for something that the
books can't give. As you can see from the following posts, a lot of
people -did- like Kevin Anderson's work. That you didn't doesn't mean
you have better taste, but only that the book didn't work for you.
John Ordover
post to this topic comes up when I search using DejaNews, but doesn't
on Free Agent or AOL's sucky newsreader. DejaNews then seems to have
failed to post my reply. Just in case this is happening to others,
I'm posting this via free agent, which always seems to work; I will
reply to it in my next post.
Author:
The Woodwards
Email:
thewoo...@yahoo.com
Date:
1998/12/18
Forums:
alt.tv.x-files.creative
more headers
author profile
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Hola, everyone.
Admittedly, I've followed the Battle of Ordover without catching
every
post, response and counter-response, but I've picked up enough, I
believe,
to make a few observations. Now, these are bound to snark some folks
off,
but... oh, well!
First off, and this is PURELY my opinion, Mr. Ordover seems to be
kind
of a jerk. Rude, arrogant and generally unpleasant, insofar as his
posts to
this newsgroup are concerned. Now, I'm kind of a jerk, myself, but I
try
not to go around deliberately antagonizing people, which is what
appears to
be happening here. Irrespective of Mr. Ordover's accomplishments in
legitimate literary circles, he definitely has a great deal to learn
about
Netiquette. Namely, don't make an ass out of yourself, even if others
are
doing so. And when you start stomping around in a newsgroup acting
like the
big fish in the little pond, it's called being a troll and it's akin
to
farting during a photo op with the President; you aren't going to
impress
anyone and the negative effect on your reputation is fairly
significant.
Secondly, I think both Mr. Ordover and his detractors are
forgetting
what fanfiction IS and what it is NOT. Folks, fanfic is FANFIC. It
has
about as much bearing on legitimate literature as JUGGS does to TIME
on the
magazine racks. Fanfic is written by fans for the pleasure of oneself
and
other fans. And that's IT. There's no great imperative attached to
it, nor
greater significance due to its intimate connection to those who love
the
source material.
This does NOT mean that it's a complete waste of time and effort,
however. Writing is writing and the only way to learn HOW to write is
to
WRITE. Those with the "gift" will wear their training wheels,
shuttling
Mulder and Scully (or whomever) around a hand-crafted plotline and
then move
on to whatever else. The practice is worth it, the positive feedback
from
readers, whether professional or not, feeds the spark of will and
helps it
grow. And that spark needs a LOT of help. Even a kind word from
Grandma is
a boon. Those without the "gift" will linger in the fanfic circle
forever
and, frankly, if that's where they're happy, then that's where they
belong.
Is the majority of fanfic trash? Yes, it is. Cliched to the
extreme,
grammatically incorrect and, sometimes, simply and generically ROTTEN.
Many
stories smack of wish-fulfillment, personal hurts and insecurities
related
to life, work or sex. Some appear to have been compiled merely to
provide a
textbook example for the heading: STORIES WRITTEN BY THE UTTERLY
CLUELESS.
But is it without merit? No, because once again, writing is writing
and to
learn, one must DO.
It's like building muscles. If someone wants to get stronger,
they
exercise. Maybe they lift weights or practice Tai Chi. Or maybe they
do
good, old-fashioned calisthenics for a half-hour a day. Whatever the
technique used to achieve the goal, that's fine. It's the end result
that's
important.
Mr. Ordover seems to believe that one should hit the legit market
and
try, try and try again until one ultimately succeeds or fails. That's
one
way to do it and if you feel that's for you, then for God's sake, GO
DO IT!
The world needs more (talented) writers, even if only 5% of the
population
is reading books, or whatever the statistic was. I have to point out,
though, that this is only ONE WAY to learn the craft and I also have
to
point out that only the cosmetic nature of the practice is changed.
The
bottom line is still the same: write and write and WRITE. To take the
attitude that it is somehow "nobler in the mind to suffer the slings
and
arrows of outrageous fortune" than to do what's right for YOU...
that's the
sign of someone who doesn't want to understand that everyone comes to
the
craft in their own way.
This attitude continues. In one post, Mr. Ordover said that
feedback
from non-professional authors won't teach a writer how to become a
pro. Of
course, he said it in a very prickly and unpleasant way, but that's
basically what he said. Simply put, he's WRONG.
A person doesn't have to know how to write in order to be grabbed
by a
great story. Prose has a way of connecting with ANYONE if it's
crafted with
skill. So bounce your writing off anybody you can get to sit still
long
enough to read it. Start with relatives and friends, work your way up
to
(gasp) a more-or-less stranger. Quiz them until they're ready to beat
you
senseless with your manuscript. Find out what works and what doesn't.
Chip
and shape and hone until you MAKE THAT CONNECTION. There's nothing
"professional" about that response at all. And if you're not making
that
connection, regardless of who's reading it, you're not ready. When
you DO,
though, then you have something special. You have the "gift."
You'll notice that I always put quotes around the word "gift."
That's
because I believe that good writing really IS a skill that can be
learned.
Perfection of that skill can be worked toward in any arena, with any
audience, using ANY tools (including fanfic) and the ultimate reward
is the
knowledge that "hot damn, they really LIKED that baby!" Money's nice,
too,
but I don't think any but the most callow of authors really writes
just for
the money. Writers write because they must write and they write to be
read.
Read and ENJOYED.
I would urge anyone who's getting a head of steam built up over
Mr.
Ordover's provocations to calm down. He's an editor and his job is to
put
the weed-whacker to the authors, so it's within his province to be as
annoying as a set of nails on a chalkboard. Right now, as I pointed
out
before, he's playing big fish in the little pond and if that's fun for
him,
then fine. For God's sake, don't start a holy war over FANFIC! At
best,
fanfic is a harmless and sometimes useful diversion. At worst, it's a
productivity-sucking nightmare of sixteen-part relationshipper
soap-operatics like "Mr. and Mrs. Mulder Do Their Laundry."
If Mr. Ordover offends you, there are a couple of options. You
can
complain, first off. I did. You've been reading it all this time.
However, the SECOND option is probably the most effective: don't buy
Pocket
Books. Get your friends not to buy Pocket Books. Stop your family
members
from buying Pocket Books. Talk to total strangers in the bookstore
and
convince THEM not to buy Pocket Books.
You see, these lousy "novels" that get published are like
word-popcorn.
They are weightless, substance-free and are useful to publishing
entities
only as long as they are profitable. They are, perhaps, even worse
than
fanfictions in that they are oftentimes written by authors who
probably
COULD write far more interesting prose of their own design if they
weren't
wasting their time (and collecting a paycheck) to provide the further
adventures of Ace Schmidlap, Intergalactic Cool Guy as seen on CBS.
Mr. Ordover and those like him are EMPLOYED because people like
you and
I buy the books. I've picked up my share of junk novels. Sure, I
have.
And right now everyone at Big Publishing Central(tm) is probably
enjoying a
big laugh at this newsgroup's expense due to all the silly posturing
and
indefensible poetics surrounding the inviolable Art of Fanfic. They
know
that the majority of the posts are worthless, much like the majority
of the
very tie-in books THEY PUBLISH. Only THEY figured out how to play the
inside game and make money doing it, while you poor dopes fritter away
your
energies.
So stick it to them in such a way that they can begin to
understand your
frustration.
But, whatever you do, don't stop writing. The craft of prose is
the
craft of immortality. You won't get there with your scintillating
novella
of "Mulder and Scully vs. the Oogie-Boogie Monster," but the familiar
faces
and voices of well-loved characters might very well provide the
impetus to
create those that are new, but still possessed of greatness.
Or maybe your writing will always suck. It could happen.
John Ordover
"But, whatever you do, don't stop writing. The craft of prose is
the
craft of immortality. You won't get there with your scintillating
novella
of "Mulder and Scully vs. the Oogie-Boogie Monster," but the familiar
faces
and voices of well-loved characters might very well provide the
impetus to
create those that are new, but still possessed of greatness."
Okay, after telling me that I was wrong to tell people to stop writing
fan fiction,k the woodswards said, as I've quoted above:
"
The craft of prose is the
craft of immortality. You won't get there with your scintillating
novella
of "Mulder and Scully vs. the Oogie-Boogie Monster,"
Which is exaclty what I've been saying, and also that
" the familiar faces
and voices of well-loved characters might very well provide the
impetus to
create those that are new, but still possessed of greatness."
...and what I've been saying is, "Go do that." Go create charcters
that "...are new, but still possessed of greatness." If you want to
be a pro writer, that's the way to go, and the sooner the better.
MERRICAT K
US
>>Olympic Writing Team in 2000
>Silly analogy, when the next post/thread is just a click away.
I thought it was a silly analogy too, but you're the one who came up with it.
Merricat
"Quick, act like a cat!"
--Tidy Cat commercial
Cpnk0
>The answer is, because you found something boring didn't mean that it
>was a bad boo (are there any X-Files episodes that you didn't like but
>others did, and vice versa? You may just not be the target audience
>for an X-Files media book, or may be looking for something that the
>books can't give. As you can see from the following posts, a lot of
>people -did- like Kevin Anderson's work. That you didn't doesn't mean
>you have better taste, but only that the book didn't work for you.
YAY!! Thank you Mr. Ordover.
Welcome to one of the most arrogant newsgroups in town.
The way some of these folks behave you would think they were Pulitzer prize
authors.
HAHAHAHAHA
Fan-fiction is an outlet for the frustration one feels towards the direction of
your favorite show. Nothing more, nothing less. I have read both abysmal and
good on this group. The Star Trek group, in my not so humble opinion, usually
attracts the better writers. The drooling duchovny kids seem to prevail over
here. Need I remind anyone of the hideous "kill Leoni" fiction that came out a
couple years ago?
Flaming Ordover for telling you the truth (that many of you don't seem to want
to hear) is your right of course. Actually, you are all acting in character
for this newsgroup.
The ignorant know-it alls,lead by my best friend Mo O'Brien, who likes to
pretend that she knows everything about the 'net because she read a few newbie
guides, rule the roost. I see she has resisted growth quite well. Good for
you girl-friend. RESIST THAT EVIL FRUIT OF KNOWLEDGE.
Pretend I am male, pretend that Ordover is a meanie who is WRONG. No matter
what.,KEEP YOUR EYES CLOSED TO THE TRUTH.
After all, it is a vast conspiracy. The truth that YOU want to hear is still
out there...somewhere.
Keep on writing your FILK. Keep on writing your stories. Keep on speculating
on Duchovny's shoe size. Just try and understand that fan-fiction isn't your
ticket into the big time. Rather a fun, albeit odd, little hobby that binds
y'all together.
Punkie, who has still masked her email address to protect herself from spam.
No matter how much this annoys the riff-raff.
CiCi Lean2
>ticket into the big time.>>
But I have yet to see anyone here who would *truly* believe that.
Look, I don't think too many writers would argue that good writing takes
practice. Lots and lots and *lots* of practice. Which means -writing- every
chance you get, morning, noon and night.
The disagreement here is the sort of practice that would serve a would-be
professional best. (Of course, the argument could also be made that would-be
professionals don't necessarily have to be good, just relentless, but...)
Some writers would say that writing fanfiction is just as useful a practice
tool as any other, and you should write what you are inspired to write, because
it's better than writing nothing at all.
Ordover says that creating original characters and practicing with them is more
productive in the long run, _assuming_ that becoming a professional novelist
is your primary objective.
While I can see the logic in both of these statements, it sounds like a very
personal decision to me, and IMHO, I think there are folks who have gotten
there start here, who *will* be published one day. I really have no doubt
about that.
And, the amount of time it takes them to get the amount of confidence and
encouragement needed to take that step into a world of their own creation, and
then into the frustrating, and misery-inducing world of professional
publishing, should be up to them.
Publishing houses ain't going anywhere anytime soon. (Unless everyone starts
getting novels off of the 'net for free. Hmmm, makes ya think that perhaps
Pocket Books doesn't like that idea too much, eh? And perhaps would like to
discourage it, just a *wee* bit, non?)
As for me, I'm happy with my non-fiction newsletters and freelance articles
-and- will continue writing fanfic because I enjoy writing it and getting
feedback for it. (Yes, I've been published *professionally*, fanfic
notwithstanding. It's not as insane an idea as one might think.)
Hell, I may get money for "Your Thyroid Gland and You" but no amount of money
is anywhere near as sweet as a letter saying "That was great! I just *loved*
it!"
CiCi
John Ordover
>
>Look, I don't think too many writers would argue that good writing takes
>practice. Lots and lots and *lots* of practice. Which means -writing- every
>chance you get, morning, noon and night.
>
> The disagreement here is the sort of practice that would serve a would-be
>professional best. (Of course, the argument could also be made that would-be
>professionals don't necessarily have to be good, just relentless, but...)
>
>Some writers would say that writing fanfiction is just as useful a practice
>tool as any other, and you should write what you are inspired to write, because
>it's better than writing nothing at all.
>
>Ordover says that creating original characters and practicing with them is more
>productive in the long run, _assuming_ that becoming a professional novelist
>is your primary objective.
>
>While I can see the logic in both of these statements, it sounds like a very
>personal decision to me, and IMHO, I think there are folks who have gotten
>there start here, who *will* be published one day. I really have no doubt
>about that.
>
...and here's the post that will really get me flamed. Don't you
think it's at all possible that someone who is both a professional
fiction riter and a professional fiction
editor (an editor -- the person whose job it is to buy stuff from
writers) might know -more- about what it's important for a writer to
practice, and so on, then someone who isn't? And that it -matters-
what audience you have responding to your work?
Quick "audience matters" parable:
Once there were two men, both of whom wanted to learn the length of
the nose of the Emperor of China, who was hidden from view in the
Secret City. The first man went to everyone in the chinese
countryside, and asked them how long they thought the Emperor's nose
was; then he put all the people's answers together and averaged the
lengh.
The second man learned that the Emperor's Butler, who
washed the Emperor's face every day, left the Secret City every
evening at 7 to buy soap. Waiting by the gates, when the butler
stepped out the second man asked him "How long is the Emperor's Nose?"
and since this was not an imperial secret the butler answered.
Which man do you think was most likely to have the correct answer
about the length of the Emperor's nose?
Or to put it another way: If you're trying to learn how to conguate
the verb "to go" in French, you can ask a million people who don't
know french how to do it, or one who does. Which is most likely to
get you the right answer?
So if you really want to become a professional writer, then you have
to seek out professional (non-academic) responses to your writing.
There are lots of places to get that -- you can pick up important
tips just buy going to a "so you want
to be an author" panels at SF conventions. You can attend workshops
taught by pro writers and editors.
Lots of people post on here saying "The pro media books are so awful,
I can't imagine why they publish them." if you want to be a pro
writer, what you need to learn is exactly how and why that book was
published.
Enough for now.
Cpnk0
>.and here's the post that will really get me flamed. Don't you
>think it's at all possible that someone who is both a professional
>fiction riter and a professional fiction
> editor (an editor -- the person whose job it is to buy stuff from
>writers) might know -more- about what it's important for a writer to
>practice, and so on, then someone who isn't? And that it -matters-
>what audience you have responding to your work?
>
You would think so, wouldn't you?
Experience DOES matter.
Except on the wacky world of UseNet!
X-Files newsgroups in particular have little regard for reality. You are part
of the grand conspiracy. How dare you rain on their parade in such a manner?
A previous poster sez:
>>personal decision to me, and IMHO, I think there are folks who have gotten
>>there start here, who *will* be published one day. I really have no doubt
>>about that.
>>
That is very supportive of you. However reality and what you wish (opine,
think) are two different things.
>So if you really want to become a professional writer, then you have
>to seek out professional (non-academic) responses to your writing.
YES!! YES!! YES!!!. You ask the experienced for advice not the unwashed masses
on UseNet.
>Lots of people post on here saying "The pro media books are so awful,
>I can't imagine why they publish them." if you want to be a pro
>writer, what you need to learn is exactly how and why that book was
>published.
>
>
Precisely. Just because you don't like the message folks doesn't make it less
TRUE.
Punkie, who thinks that Mr. Ordover while providing a useful public service,
is speaking to a deaf audience who perfers to wallow in their ignorance.
Cpnk0
>But I have yet to see anyone here who would *truly* believe that.
I have been reading the angry responses to Ordover both here and on the trek
newsgroup. I beg to differ with your conclusion. Go search DejaNews, you will
find many who have posted their belief in this. How you can judge whether they
"truly" believe is another question all together.
>
>>IMHO, I think there are folks who have gotten
>there start here, who *will* be published one day. I really have no doubt
>about that.
I do. I guess we shall see in years to come who is right.
> Hmmm, makes ya think that perhaps
>Pocket Books doesn't like that idea too much, eh? And perhaps would like to
>discourage it, just a *wee* bit, non?)
Oh. Yes. It is all a vast conspiracy.
HAHAHAHAHA
Pocket Books is soo frightened by this group they send an under-cover operative
to troll the creative groups.
>As for me, I'm happy with my non-fiction newsletters and freelance articles
>-and- will continue writing fanfic because I enjoy writing it and getting
>feedback for it
Glad that you are happy and fulfilled. Fan Ficiton IMHO is a hobby. As I said
before, an outlet for frustration with the direction of the show. No harm in
that. However I don't believe that relying on feedback provided by fellow
amateurs is of any value.
>Hell, I may get money for "Your Thyroid Gland and You" but no amount of money
>is anywhere near as sweet as a letter saying "That was great! I just
>*loved*
>it!"
This is not critical feedback. This is adoration. Two vastly different
concepts.
If you are looking for an ego boost fan fiction is the easy answer.
Punkie, who has no clever tag at the moment.
Alli
>
> ...and here's the post that will really get me flamed. Don't you
> think it's at all possible that someone who is both a professional
> fiction riter and a professional fiction
> editor (an editor -- the person whose job it is to buy stuff from
> writers) might know -more- about what it's important for a writer to
> practice, and so on, then someone who isn't? And that it -matters-
> what audience you have responding to your work?
>
>
> to seek out professional (non-academic) responses to your writing.
> tips just buy going to a "so you want
> to be an author" panels at SF conventions. You can attend workshops
> taught by pro writers and editors.
>
Now, Mr. Ordover, maybe you'll have some advice
for me. I hope you do. I hope it's good advice.
And I'm not trying to flame you. I'm just trying
to explain my position.
Alli
PD
...And in general in response to this whole Ordover thing...
> Glad that you are happy and fulfilled. Fan Ficiton IMHO is a hobby. As I said
> before, an outlet for frustration with the direction of the show. No harm in
> that. However I don't believe that relying on feedback provided by fellow
> amateurs is of any value.
... among other things...
Now, take a deep breath. This is going to be loooooong.
OK. I've been lurking in this particular thread for, oh, about 15
years. I respond now with absolutely no intention of claiming the last
word. To quote Glen Close, "It will go on and on..."
My Take: Such as it is. I have been writing seriously for over 12
years. Not long in the grand scheme of things, really. But every day I
write, with everything I write, I get better. Every single thing.
After several years, after writing for essentially myself, close
personal friends and my family, I thought I was ready to present myself
as Debbie, the Writer to someone who didn't know me when I wore a "Shark
Bait" T-shirt and Dittos. Eeuuuu. When to what did my wandering eyes
did appear but a contract with my name on it. Yes, my name's still on
it, yes, my best effort to date is being shopped by an agent, and yes, I
write fanfiction, too. Of course, according to Mr. O, I haven't been
paid for anything yet, so I'm not a professional. And I don't claim to
be one, either. I do, however, claim to be a serious writer with
serious intentions.
No, I am not a professional. But I will be. Yes, I write fanfiction.
Why? Because I enjoy it. Because it keeps me writing. As nearly
everyone else has said, everything you do every single day makes you a
better writer. I love being critiqued. I also love being told "your
story... can't remember what it's called, but yeah. It rocked." This
does not make me a professional, but it makes me feel good about sitting
down at the keyboard and adding another single word or a particularly
wonderful sentence to what I can call My Writing.
Yes, fanfiction may be an outlet for frustration for some. For some,
perhaps most, it's something else entirely. It may sound cheesy, but we
write because we have to. If I didn't write, my head would explode.
And then, that's just plain messy. Unless I missed a crucial piece of
this thread, I don't think anyone is claiming "I write fanfiction and
here, my little friends, I will be discovered. Then I'll get
paid."
And here is where I take the Ordover prong of the fork and agree with
him. To a point. Creating your own characters and breathing life into
them is essential to honing the old crafteroonie, as well. But has
anyone said that they ONLY write fanficiton? Has anyone said that they
don't create their own characters in some form or another? Unless I'm
wrong - yes, it's happened before - X Files (or what have you) fic is
probably but one outlet for many writers here. At least for those that
are embarking on a career as a writer. I write screenplays and create
characters from the murky recesses of my own mind.
And often, fic writers DO create their own characters. Fleshed out,
breathing characters. When I think of spectacular fic, Iolokus always
jumps to mind. MustangSally and RivkaT write a Mulder and Scully that
is beyond compare IMO. They also created their own astounding
characters. Have you ever met a baby in fanfiction with more
personality than Miranda?
The bottom line, Mr. Ordover, is that when a writer is ready for an
"audience that matters" (a real slap in the face to the reading
community, BTW), they will seek them out. Until then, the "audience
that matters" is the community that appreciates and acknowledges the
effort and love and talent that goes into CREATING STORIES around
characters we love. There is nothing inconsequential about
that.
Flame away. I wear asbestos and I look damn good in it.
===========================================================
Debbie
"The device has yet to be invented that could possibly
measure my indifference to that remark."
***********
"Agent Scully, you are so kind-hearted. He's a nut! I
just read his manifesto... I don't know what was most
disturbing. His description of the inner core
reincarnated soul's sex orgy, or the fact that the whole
thing is written in screenplay format."
***********
"But... I just put money in the magic fingers."
===========================================================
MERRICAT K
>think it's at all possible that someone who is both a professional
>fiction riter and a professional fiction editor (an editor -- the
>person whose job it is to buy stuff from writers) might know
>-more- about what it's important for a writer to practice, and
>so on, then someone who isn't? And that it -matters-
>what audience you have responding to your work?
Response to this at end.
<first analogy snipped>
>Or to put it another way: If you're trying to learn how to conguate
>the verb "to go" in French, you can ask a million people who don't
>know french how to do it, or one who does. Which is most likely to
>get you the right answer?
To fine-tune this analogy, if you were trying to correctly pronounce the French
verb "to go," who would you ask--someone who could hear you, or someone who
couldn't? Since you can't read unsubmitted fanfic, how can you judge it in any
way?
>So if you really want to become a professional writer, then you have
>to seek out professional (non-academic) responses to your writing.
>There are lots of places to get that -- you can pick up important
>tips just buy going to a "so you want to be an author" panels at SF
>conventions. You can attend workshops taught by pro writers and editors.
>Lots of people post on here saying "The pro media books are so awful,
>I can't imagine why they publish them." if you want to be a pro
>writer, what you need to learn is exactly how and why that book was
>published.
Let me see if I get this straight. You publish what a lot of people on here
say they think are very badly written books. And you think those people should
come to you asking how they can get published? My first guess would be, write
badly, in the same way, as the dreck that's being published now. But...maybe
they don't want to do that. Which could be the answer to your first paragraph
question--you publish things that a number of people here don't respect, but
you expect them to respect your opinion. Um, why would they?
Merricat, always puzzled by such arrogance
stillwater16
>
>Ooops, here's our self-appointed expert again!!
>
>Welcome back, didja have a few more drinks last night?
>
>PLEASE, people, ignore this putz. I'm sick of seeing his name.
>
>bliss
AMEN to that.
is it logical that we should be able to convince mr. ordover of anything? we
don't pay his salary. publishers do. and if you read high-quality fanfic, logic
says you probably won't buy the low-quality profic his company produces.
if he encourages us, he lessens the potential profits of his company and
possibly jeopardizes his job. let the poor guy alone. we're right, he's wrong,
and what have you done when you've bested a fool?
stillwater16, who has seen this guy's tired argument on ng after ng, and is
weary of all this
>
>Ord...@aol.com (John Ordover) wrote:
>
>>
>>>
>>>Look, I don't think too many writers would argue that good writing takes
>>>practice. Lots and lots and *lots* of practice. Which means -writing- every
>>>chance you get, morning, noon and night.
>>>
>>> The disagreement here is the sort of practice that would serve a would-be
>>>professional best. (Of course, the argument could also be made that would-be
>>>professionals don't necessarily have to be good, just relentless, but...)
>>>
>>>Some writers would say that writing fanfiction is just as useful a practice
>>>tool as any other, and you should write what you are inspired to write, because
>>>it's better than writing nothing at all.
>>>
>>>Ordover says that creating original characters and practicing with them is more
>>>productive in the long run, _assuming_ that becoming a professional novelist
>>>is your primary objective.
>>>
>>>While I can see the logic in both of these statements, it sounds like a very
>>>personal decision to me, and IMHO, I think there are folks who have gotten
>>>there start here, who *will* be published one day. I really have no doubt
>>>about that.
>>>
>>
>>...and here's the post that will really get me flamed. Don't you
>>think it's at all possible that someone who is both a professional
>>fiction riter and a professional fiction
>> editor (an editor -- the person whose job it is to buy stuff from
>>writers) might know -more- about what it's important for a writer to
>>practice, and so on, then someone who isn't? And that it -matters-
>>what audience you have responding to your work?
>>
>>Quick "audience matters" parable:
>>
>>Once there were two men, both of whom wanted to learn the length of
>>the nose of the Emperor of China, who was hidden from view in the
>>Secret City. The first man went to everyone in the chinese
>>countryside, and asked them how long they thought the Emperor's nose
>>was; then he put all the people's answers together and averaged the
>>lengh.
>>
>>The second man learned that the Emperor's Butler, who
>>washed the Emperor's face every day, left the Secret City every
>>evening at 7 to buy soap. Waiting by the gates, when the butler
>>stepped out the second man asked him "How long is the Emperor's Nose?"
>>and since this was not an imperial secret the butler answered.
>>
>>Which man do you think was most likely to have the correct answer
>>about the length of the Emperor's nose?
>>
>>Or to put it another way: If you're trying to learn how to conguate
>>the verb "to go" in French, you can ask a million people who don't
>>know french how to do it, or one who does. Which is most likely to
>>get you the right answer?
>>
>>So if you really want to become a professional writer, then you have
>>to seek out professional (non-academic) responses to your writing.
>>There are lots of places to get that -- you can pick up important
>>tips just buy going to a "so you want
>>to be an author" panels at SF conventions. You can attend workshops
>>taught by pro writers and editors.
>>
>>Lots of people post on here saying "The pro media books are so awful,
>>I can't imagine why they publish them." if you want to be a pro
>>writer, what you need to learn is exactly how and why that book was
>>published.
>>
>>Enough for now.
>
>"I am not an angry girl/but it seems like I've got
>everyone fooled/everytime I say something they find
>hard to hear/they chalk it up to my anger/and never
>to their own fear- Ani DiFranco
>
>"'snuff ed"
>
>"but how often is too often?"
The Woodwards
attention... .
>Experience DOES matter.
And I'd certainly like to know what experience you're speaking from.
Connection to a reader is, as I've said about seven hundred and
forty-six times in this thread, is the key to good writing. Connection to
ANY reader in ANY venue. And when one has honed the skills to make that
connection in work after work after work, then one has "made it" into the
circle of the "good writers."
That means Old Man Schmidlap at the end of the block who kindly agreed
to read your latest murder mystery, but doesn't know jack about professional
writing, can give you more valuable insight than a hundred folks who read
for a living. Not only that, but I'd venture to say that he'll take the
time to point up what's right and what's wrong with a given piece of work,
which the slush-pile readers won't.
Being surrounded with the same stable of adoring fans might be great on
the ego, but you're right: it doesn't do much to help the aspiring writer.
In fact, it can be detrimental, but what works works and what doesn't work
DOESN'T WORK, no matter WHO does the reading and no matter what the writing
entails.
So when one uses the word "experience," it's an empty expression devoid
of real meaning. Define and use, folks. Define and use.
>X-Files newsgroups in particular have little regard for reality. You are
part
>of the grand conspiracy. How dare you rain on their parade in such a
manner?
I'm wholly convinced of your flame-attracting/troll intentions, so I'll
ignore that. Let's stick to the issues at hand. My entire involvement in
the "Ordover thing," as it's come to be known, stems from my wife calling it
to my attention after noticing a recurring thread laid between the piles of
unreadable fanfic she culls through on a regular basis. And anyone who
tries to discourage a writer from writing is pegged in Sight One of my guns
from the get-go.
>... who thinks that Mr. Ordover while providing a useful public service,
>is speaking to a deaf audience who perfers to wallow in their ignorance.
To paraphrase from the post to which I'm responding: what you wish Mr
Ordover's notes to be and what they ARE aren't the same thing. Sorry, but
we have to check into the Hotel for Those With a Clue.
And a spell-check.
The Woodwards
play nice and be helpful... you got your head stuck up your arse again!
What are we going to do with you?
>>I don't think too many writers would argue that good writing takes
>>practice. Lots and lots and *lots* of practice. Which means -writing-
every
>>chance you get, morning, noon and night.
>>
>> The disagreement here is the sort of practice that would serve a
would-be
>>professional best.
I thought we'd already hammered out the VERY OBVIOUS points surrounding
this exact subject. Numerous points were brought up, including a brilliant
example made by yourself (not that you'd thought it through very carefully
or used it to any great advantage) concerning Michael Crichton. In fact,
with that Crichton argument I'd thought you'd done an excellent job of
shutting yourself up, because Crichton is the perfect example of writing is
writing is writing, no matter the training or the venue.
MUST I go over the importance of the learning and practice of: 1) an
active and dynamic writing voice, and 2) construction of compelling plot?
Must I THEN repeat, as I have already numerous times, that forging a
connection with a reader of ANY stripe is the earmark of a successful
author? Must I continue to type my wittle fingertips raw conveying the same
information ENDLESSLY to you, much as a parent might lecture a particularly
unintelligent child?
We'd settled all these issues, John. Writing is writing and work is
work. I'm unsurprised concerning, though tired of, this propensity you have
for rehashing a completed discussion. If you need it all explained to you
once more, I'd be happy to cut-and-paste every word I've written on this
subject so far and you can read it all again, uninterrupted.
The simple fact of the matter is that fanfiction is valid work for a
writer because it allows the familiar-setting practice of the craft that can
then be applied to more legitimate lines of work. This is the meat of the
matter and it does not harm a potential "pro writer" to work in this medium
if they so desire to do so prior to continuing their craft on a professional
level. Skills learned writing any sort of fiction are UNIVERSAL and the
positive result of these can be gleaned from any audience. Connection with
a reader is the goal for a writer of any caliber. Any investment in the
craft ends (hopefully) with this result.
>Don't you
>think it's at all possible that someone who is both a professional
>fiction riter and a professional fiction
> editor (an editor -- the person whose job it is to buy stuff from
>writers) might know -more- about what it's important for a writer to
>practice, and so on, then someone who isn't?
No.
The best readers are ones who come to a work fresh, without an air of
pretension to superiority or professionalism, simply because they want --
no, they DEMAND -- to be entertained. If the work's not there then, damnit,
they aren't going to go for it. And if they DO go for it, then the whys and
wherefores of their enjoyment can be useful. Of course, the opposite is
also true; one can learn a great deal about one's own writing from those who
detest it. In fact, one might learn more than one WANTS to learn.
As Maxwell Perkins wrote, "Writing, like drawing, is an art, and
whatever conveys the meaning is justified." That means writing, Mr Ordover,
writing and learning to convey meaning to whomever reads the words. What
form that conveyance might take... that's up to the writer and his or her
approach to their craft. The success these writers may attain in making
that connection is something genuine and wholly divorced from the more
prosaic confines of professionalism as you describe it.
Oh, and Maxwell Perkins was an editor who carried on a correspondence
with Ernest Hemingway, probably the greatest American author who ever lived,
for twenty years or so.
In a side note, I would approach VERY CAREFULLY any so-called
professional editor who cannot spell the word "writer" correctly.
>Quick "audience matters" parable:
The mind boggles. My advice: when telling stories, please have a point.
Enough said.
>Or to put it another way: If you're trying to learn how to conguate
>the verb "to go" in French, you can ask a million people who don't
>know french how to do it, or one who does. Which is most likely to
>get you the right answer?
I think you are, of course, confusing a mechanical skill with an
artistic one. Mechanical skills include punctuation, grammar (and its
misuse thereof), not to mention your Number One bugaboo: spelling. Verb
conjugation is a mechanical skill with only one way to approach its mastery.
Writing, on the other hand, as I'm ONCE AGAIN forced to tell you -- and,
believe me, I'm getting good and tired of it -- is a craft that can be
learnt in any number of ways. The desired end is always the same: solid
fiction. However, how one comes to this end is entirely personal, is
entirely subjective and cannot be adequately relayed by anyone or anything
other than reading, writing and constant reexamination of one's work by
anyone who can be nailed into one spot long enough to read it. Period.
>Enough for now.
Amen, brother. Amen.
stillwater16
>
>>From: stillwater16<stillw...@erols.com>
>
>>if he encourages us, he lessens the potential profits of his company and
>>possibly jeopardizes his job. let the poor guy alone. we're right, he's
>>wrong,
>
>
>Conspiracy!! CONSPIRACY.
>
>Let us try this slowly. The man is NOT telling you not to write fan-fiction.
>He IS telling you that fan-fiction is NOT the way into legitimate published
>venues. PERIOD.
>
>How do you come to the conclusion that just because his message annoys you that
>"we're right, he's wrong" ?
>
>You have no facts on your side.
>
>He does.
>
>Punkie, who is amazed at the number of people who continue to believe something
>when all facts point the opposite direction. GOD anyone?
>
i think you misunderstood my post, so i'll clarify, even though my troll radar
is going off at a frantic rate.
ordover is employed by an industry to whom fanfiction is at least indirect, and
possibly direct, competition. it would be wholly illogical for him to promote
the writing of fanfiction as an individual metier or as a step to professional
writing. it isn't very sensible to expect to convince him that fanfiction has a
vital and important life of its own *outside* the hopes of those who see it as a
way into the industry. and since he seems to think fanfic is invalid as 'real
writing', in my view, he is *wrong*.
fanfic writers are not going to convince him; he isn't going to convince us.
period.
no helicoptors, no conspiracy, and all the facts you want. and my last word on
the subject.
stillwater16, humming 'troll, troll, troll your boat...'
bliss
Welcome back, didja have a few more drinks last night?
PLEASE, people, ignore this putz. I'm sick of seeing his name.
bliss
Ord...@aol.com (John Ordover) wrote:
>
>>
>>Look, I don't think too many writers would argue that good writing takes
>>practice. Lots and lots and *lots* of practice. Which means -writing- every
>>chance you get, morning, noon and night.
>>
>> The disagreement here is the sort of practice that would serve a would-be
>>professional best. (Of course, the argument could also be made that would-be
>>professionals don't necessarily have to be good, just relentless, but...)
>>
>>Some writers would say that writing fanfiction is just as useful a practice
>>tool as any other, and you should write what you are inspired to write, because
>>it's better than writing nothing at all.
>>
>>Ordover says that creating original characters and practicing with them is more
>>productive in the long run, _assuming_ that becoming a professional novelist
>>is your primary objective.
>>
>>While I can see the logic in both of these statements, it sounds like a very
>>personal decision to me, and IMHO, I think there are folks who have gotten
>>there start here, who *will* be published one day. I really have no doubt
>>about that.
>>
>
>...and here's the post that will really get me flamed. Don't you
>think it's at all possible that someone who is both a professional
>fiction riter and a professional fiction
> editor (an editor -- the person whose job it is to buy stuff from
>writers) might know -more- about what it's important for a writer to
>practice, and so on, then someone who isn't? And that it -matters-
>what audience you have responding to your work?
>
>Quick "audience matters" parable:
>
>Once there were two men, both of whom wanted to learn the length of
>the nose of the Emperor of China, who was hidden from view in the
>Secret City. The first man went to everyone in the chinese
>countryside, and asked them how long they thought the Emperor's nose
>was; then he put all the people's answers together and averaged the
>lengh.
>
>The second man learned that the Emperor's Butler, who
>washed the Emperor's face every day, left the Secret City every
>evening at 7 to buy soap. Waiting by the gates, when the butler
>stepped out the second man asked him "How long is the Emperor's Nose?"
>and since this was not an imperial secret the butler answered.
>
>Which man do you think was most likely to have the correct answer
>about the length of the Emperor's nose?
>
>Or to put it another way: If you're trying to learn how to conguate
>the verb "to go" in French, you can ask a million people who don't
>know french how to do it, or one who does. Which is most likely to
>get you the right answer?
>
Cpnk0
>
>To fine-tune this analogy, if you were trying to correctly pronounce the
>French
>verb "to go," who would you ask--someone who could hear you, or someone who
>couldn't? Since you can't read unsubmitted fanfic, how can you judge it in
>any
>way?
Uhhhh. What is your point???
So far I haven't seen him tell y'all you go to HIM for advice. He is correct
when he said that relying on professionals for criticsm rather than UseNet
amateurs is the smarter way to go.
>Let me see if I get this straight. You publish what a lot of people on here
You didn't get it.
Better luck next time.
>>Merricat, always puzzled by such arrogance
AMEN SISTER!! AMEN.
Punkie, who wonders if reading comprehension is a lost art?
Cpnk0
>OK. I've been lurking in this particular thread for, oh, about 15
>years. I respond now with
WOW. Exaggerate much?
>No, I am not a professional. But I will be. Yes, I write fanfiction.
>Why? Because I enjoy it. Because it keeps me writing. As nearly
Bully for you!! (Hard to believe, but I mean this sincerely) NOBODY is saying
that you shouldn't write fan-fiction as a hobby. Hey we all have our foibles.
However, if you believe that fan-ficiton can in anyway help you go
"professional" you are misguided. Which is what I believe is Mr. Ordover's
point.
Many have posted that receiving feedback from fan-fiction helps them improve
their writing. Relying on fellow amateurs is NOT going to help you
professionaly. Receiving criticsm from those in the business is far more
valuable and helpful.
> I also love being told "your
>story... can't remember what it's called, but yeah. It rocked." This
>does not make me a professional, but it makes me feel good about sitting
Sure. We all love an ego stroke. As long as you recognize that this is what
you are getting. Mass adoration vs helpful feedback.
UseNet is great for that. Getting all those folks who breathlessly love
everything you say sending you fan mail can be thrilling. (getting the folks
agitated and running in circles trying to defend their nonsense is also a
joy....)
>"I write fanfiction and
>here, my little friends, I will be discovered. Then I'll get
>paid."
Go to DejaNews. See where some have posted just that. They believe that
fan-fiction is an entrance into the world of professional writing. It isn't.
>The bottom line, Mr. Ordover, is that when a writer is ready for an
>"audience that matters" (a real slap in the face to the reading
>community, BTW), they will seek them out. Until then, the "audience
>that matters" is the community that appreciates and acknowledges the
>effort and love and talent that goes
You have missed the point entirely.
Punkie, who is amazed with the defensive responses this thread has generated.
Okay, not really, it was about what I expected.
Cpnk0
JourneyToX
>I can't imagine why they publish them." if you want to be a pro
>writer, what you need to learn is exactly how and why that book was
>published.
>
>Enough for now.
>
(1) Why do you publish books that are perceived, by your target audience, as
inferior? I don't want to know how or why an inferior book is published. I'm
not going to buy it. It's a waste of trees.
(2) Why would anyone want to be known for writing an inferior media tie-in
book? We all have other ways to pay the rent on our humble flat, or help us at
the Automat. If the only way I can be pro is to write shit, no thanks.
(3). I'm sure your colleagues in the industry already know why sales of Star
Trek books are down since you have taken over. It's not hard to figure out.
*~*~*~*~*~*
Journ...@aol.com, BYFP, not BOFQ
MORE Skinner, Save Spender, Can Kersh, Flush Fowley.
"God Bless America! Now get your asses out of here!" 1939!Skinner, Triangle
"Oh yeahhhh!" Mitch Pileggi, Season 3 Gag Reels. :-)
~*~*~*~*~
JourneyToX
<crap>
Go die of King Herod's Disease, you little troll.
JourneyToX
>everything you say sending you fan mail can be thrilling.
If that's all you think that Usenet feedback is, then you're sadly mistaken,
troll.
What are YOUR credentials as far as giving out advice about writing
professionally? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm???
Why should anyone listen to you, especially since you're a smartmouth with no
known presence on this group? Hmmmmmmmmmm?
I don't expect an answer. Go be maggot food.
ImXFScully
amateur/professional athlete analogy. Yours was at least remotely on target --
Amy
ImXFScully
writing fanfic will never, ever, ever, in a billion years, get you published,
according to Mr. Ordover.
Of course, Mr. Ordover also runs the "Strange New Worlds" contest, which finds
-- you guessed it -- Star Trek fanfic. From fanfic writers. Takes this
fanfic, PAYS for it and PUBLISHES it. Maybe not a ticket to the big time --
but $$ and exposure on paper.
So -- does anyone ELSE find this a little schizophrenic? Either he believes
that fanfic is a pile of junk, in which case Mr. Ordover is being incredibly
hypocritical by holding it up for greater exposure for his own personal profit,
or he secretly understands that it's not so different from the stories with
which he makes his living, and just enjoys trolling around --
Amy, who doesn't care which
bliss
alternate personalities with a different screen name.
So let us all just let them continue their incestuous widdle discussion alone,
okay? Ignore them.
cp...@aol.com (Cpnk0) wrote:
>>From: Ord...@aol.com (John Ordover)
>
>>.and here's the post that will really get me flamed. Don't you
>>think it's at all possible that someone who is both a professional
>>fiction riter and a professional fiction
>> editor (an editor -- the person whose job it is to buy stuff from
>>writers) might know -more- about what it's important for a writer to
>>practice, and so on, then someone who isn't? And that it -matters-
>>what audience you have responding to your work?
>>
>
>You would think so, wouldn't you?
>
>Experience DOES matter.
>
>
>Except on the wacky world of UseNet!
>
>X-Files newsgroups in particular have little regard for reality. You are part
>of the grand conspiracy. How dare you rain on their parade in such a manner?
>
>A previous poster sez:
>
>>>personal decision to me, and IMHO, I think there are folks who have gotten
>>>there start here, who *will* be published one day. I really have no doubt
>>>about that.
>>>
>
>
>That is very supportive of you. However reality and what you wish (opine,
>think) are two different things.
>
>>So if you really want to become a professional writer, then you have
>>to seek out professional (non-academic) responses to your writing.
>
>YES!! YES!! YES!!!. You ask the experienced for advice not the unwashed masses
>on UseNet.
>
>>Lots of people post on here saying "The pro media books are so awful,
>>I can't imagine why they publish them." if you want to be a pro
>>writer, what you need to learn is exactly how and why that book was
>>published.
>>
>>
>
>
>Precisely. Just because you don't like the message folks doesn't make it less
>TRUE.
>
>Punkie, who thinks that Mr. Ordover while providing a useful public service,
>is speaking to a deaf audience who perfers to wallow in their ignorance.
"I am not an angry girl/but it seems like I've got
John Ordover
It's not odd at all. Writing and posting fan ficiton will not help
your pro writing career. Submitting to a professional theme
anthology, if you sell, truly will. By providing a pro market for
Star Trek stories, I'm making availible a stepping stone to pro
publication, because as a fan, that's what I would have wanted.
That's also why you can't qualify for SNW more than three times -- at
some point, you get kicked out of the nest.:)
Also, the stories in SNW don't really
qualify as fan-fiction, because they are written to strict
professional guidelines.
Further, as I've said before, of the 35 winners to date, only seven
had -ever- written a Trek story before.
John Ordover
>> >
>>
>> ...and here's the post that will really get me flamed. Don't you
>> think it's at all possible that someone who is both a professional
>> fiction riter and a professional fiction
>> editor (an editor -- the person whose job it is to buy stuff from
>> writers) might know -more- about what it's important for a writer to
>> practice, and so on, then someone who isn't? And that it -matters-
>> what audience you have responding to your work?
>>
>>
>> So if you really want to become a professional writer, then you have
>> to seek out professional (non-academic) responses to your writing.
>> There are lots of places to get that -- you can pick up important
>> tips just buy going to a "so you want
>> to be an author" panels at SF conventions. You can attend workshops
>> taught by pro writers and editors.
>>
>> I suppose *my* personal problem - I'm not speaking for others - is that I am 16. I can't go out to conventions and the like, or get an agent like many publishing companies require, and I'm not about to immerse myself in the miserable world of rejection after rejection (I mean, look what it did to CSM!) So while getting something published (not as a full-time author, mind you) I'm content to practice my writing in fanfic. I don't write anything that would go against the show as it is now-- no heavy MSR, slash, character death, etc. I keep my stories case-files and perhaps the only thing I'm guilty of is delving too deep into the character's minds. I create a good number of original characters as well. This is the closest thing to sending in manuscripts that I can get, I suppose. Maybe when I turn 18 I'll go in more professional directions, but for now this is where I'm content.
>Now, Mr. Ordover, maybe you'll have some advice
>for me. I hope you do. I hope it's good advice.
>And I'm not trying to flame you. I'm just trying
>to explain my position.
>Alli
Alli, drop me some e-mail and I'll be happy to advise you on how to
cope with your teenage status. Let me know what city you live in,
conventions may be closer than you think. But either way, there are
ways to work out professional critique, and the magazines don't care
how old you are when you submit to them.
First advice, to everyone of any age: Read the pro magazines, Fantasy
and Science Fiction, Asimov's, and Analog. You can get a subscription
at
John Ordover
>
>Let me see if I get this straight. You publish what a lot of people on here
>come to you asking how they can get published? My first guess would be, write
>badly, in the same way, as the dreck that's being published now. But...maybe
>they don't want to do that. Which could be the answer to your first paragraph
>question--you publish things that a number of people here don't respect, but
>you expect them to respect your opinion. Um, why would they?
>
>
If you want to sell to pro editors, you have to understand what
criteria pro editors are looking for. -You- may think they are badly
written books, but yet somehow they sells hundreds of thousands of
copies to people who quite like them.
So what is it about them they like that you don't? Because that's
what editor's are looking for -- something their readership will like.
If your tastes differ from the masses, if what you want to write is
different from what the masses want to read, that's fine. As I've
said a thousands times now, this is a qualify issue, its a "focus"
issue. What is it that you don't know that is getting other people
published?
John Ordover
>>Lots of people post on here saying "The pro media books are so awful,
>>I can't imagine why they publish them." if you want to be a pro
>>writer, what you need to learn is exactly how and why that book was
>>published.
>>
>>Enough for now.
>>
>
>(1) Why do you publish books that are perceived, by your target audience, as
>inferior? I don't want to know how or why an inferior book is published. I'm
>not going to buy it. It's a waste of trees.
You aren't my target audience. My target audience has been buying
books in ever-greater numbers over the last couple of years, so
clearly I'm doing exactly the right thing.
>
>(2) Why would anyone want to be known for writing an inferior media tie-in
>book? We all have other ways to pay the rent on our humble flat, or help us at
>the Automat. If the only way I can be pro is to write shit, no thanks.
>
If you want to be published you have to understand what those authors
are doing right. Let's assume for a minute that your writing is a
thousand times better than what is being published. But your novel is
being rejected. What is it you don't know?
>(3). I'm sure your colleagues in the industry already know why sales of Star
>Trek books are down since you have taken over. It's not hard to figure out.
>
>
I doubt that, since my sales over the last two or three years
have skyrocketed. In fact, other publishing lines are adapting my
approach left and right - sincerest form of flattery.
John Ordover
wrote:
>In article <19981227194616...@ng-cg1.aol.com>, cp...@aol.com says...
>>
>i think you misunderstood my post, so i'll clarify, even though my troll radar
>is going off at a frantic rate.
>
>ordover is employed by an industry to whom fanfiction is at least indirect, and
>possibly direct, competition. it would be wholly illogical for him to promote
>the writing of fanfiction as an individual metier or as a step to professional
>writing. it isn't very sensible to expect to convince him that fanfiction has a
>vital and important life of its own *outside* the hopes of those who see it as a
>way into the industry. and since he seems to think fanfic is invalid as 'real
>writing', in my view, he is *wrong*.
>
>fanfic writers are not going to convince him; he isn't going to convince us.
>period.
>
>no helicoptors, no conspiracy, and all the facts you want. and my last word on
>the subject.
>
>stillwater16, humming 'troll, troll, troll your boat...'
Sigh.
I am saying anything at all about fan fiction as a community, or as a
hobby, or anything of the like.
Star Trek fan ficiton has been around for DECADES. It hasn't hurt the
popularity of the books at all, and even with the nets, it won't.
-All- I have been saying, over and over and over, is that fan fiction
isn't the route into pro publication.
If you're not interested in become a pro author, have at it. If you
are, stop writing fan fiction and work on your own stuff.
John Ordover
>I have tried to stay out of this, but I have to say: John Ordover is right.
>It took me a long time to realize that, but I finally understand what he's
>saying.
>
>Fanfic helped me with basics, but when I started writing profic, I realized
>it's an entirely different ballgame. The dynamics of a pro story are a lot
>different than those of a piece of fanfic.
>
>Has fanfic helped me when it comes to my profic? Maybe--but only in the most
>basic things.
>
>Writing profic is harder than fanfic--a million times harder. it's YOUR
>universe and you're responsible for it, and that's hard.
>
>Also, not getting feedback for the stories is equally hard (rejection slips
>from editors suck). That's the one thing fanfic is good for--people who scream
>for more, no matter how mediocre the writing may be. Need an ego stroke--post
>some fanfic.
>
>I may get flamed for that, but the worse piece of fanfic I ever wrote pulled in
>tons of "more more more" feedback, and I shook my head, not understanding why
>my best pro piece was being rejected time and again. *Totally* different
>arenas---and they always will be.
>
>Fanfic is NOT in competition with profic--unless readers are giving up profic
>for fanfic alone (which is the mistake I made a while ago--reading fanfic
>impairs my pro writing at times, but reading profic fuels it--your mileage my
>vary, but that's what I've found in my own experience).
>
>Fanfic can teach you the basics, but if you want to be a pro author, focus on
>profic. (If you don't want to write professionally some day, knock yourself
>out with fanfic all the time. :)) I've noticed a difference in my writing
>since I've been doing that--a difference in both my profic and fanfic (yes, I
>still write it, but I'm not nearly as consumed by it as I used to be. My
>writing now is 30% fanfic, 70% profic--and I know that should change to about
>10/90).
>
>So, there are my two quatloos. Ordover is right in that if you want to be a
>pro author, your focus should be on profic. That was *hard* for me to
>admit--but it's true.
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>MissElise ~ Miss...@aol.com ~ BYFP ~ FBG
>http://members.aol.com/etobler/home.htm
>"The blue eyes, the leather...some guys just like
>leather." Gabrielle re: me, er Xena, "A Day in the Life"
MissElise, thank you. Much appreciated. Drop me a line.
Teddi Litman
journ...@aol.com (JourneyToX) wrote:
Actually, to be fair, she's not really trolling this time. She is being
characteristically harsh; but then again, some of us (myself included ... no
*especially*) have resorted to being harsh to Mr. Ordover. Ok, I admit it,
I flamed him.
She is quite conveniently selectively reading his posts, however. Mr.
Ordover never said fanfiction shouldn't be written, hmm? Oh just forget
about the leader/follower, riding on others' coat tails, and the analogy
with criminals posts. Then again, Cyberpunk made slightly less subtle
statements to the same effect a few months ago in her more trollish
incarnation.
Both Mr. Ordover and Cyberpunk have mentioned people in other Ngs
expressing some belief that they can be "discovered" from writing fanfiction
as justification for their attacks on people in *this* Ng. I don't know if
this is true or not. Frankly, I don't care enough to verify this via
DejaNews. All I know, is no one *here* expressed this belief; so I see no
point in their trying to refute this delusion in *this* Ng.
So they are a pair these two. Wonderful! We're arrogant idiots who will
never get it. So why don't they just give up on us? Maybe there's a Ng for
amateur fishermen. They can inform them they are fishing in the wrong
streams and take out their frustrations that people can now easily use the
Internet without really knowing how it works or appreciating the history
behind it.
Teddi
Maureen O'Brien
incredibly off-topic, bandwidth-wasting, and not-even-fun thread...I
think it's time for the summing-up filk. Let the fat lady sing, and
let's all go back to our separate writing.
(Btw, Punkie (not to be confused with the recently returned Punk M/
Punk Maneuverability) is my personal troll, last seen on this ng in
August and returned again to chastise us for our sins. Reply to her not,
for she is mine and mine alone.)
(ttto Leslie Fish's "Toast to Unknown Heroes")
One newcomer posts a challenge, and he hears a trumpet call:
"Come share your work with all the world, oh, come and join us all!"
But others hear derision that could make their visions stall:
"The best that you have done, and do, is just a belly-crawl!"
Honeyed words will catch more flies -- no surprise -- just be wise.
Honey taste makes learning sweet -- dug-in feet cause defeat.
Honey makes the medicine go down more pleasantly;
Sour's killfiled presently -- Filter Thread -- Mark Thread Read.
Some young and fledgling writer pokes her head out, posting loud:
"My life and work's not worthless! This is my art, and I'm proud!"
The newcomer hears stubbornness, and the mob act of a crowd.
With equal stubbornness he posts...the rest, I'll kindly cloud.
Honeyed words will catch more flies -- no surprise -- just be wise.
Honey taste makes learning sweet -- dug-in feet cause defeat.
Honey makes the medicine go down more pleasantly;
Sour's killfiled presently -- Filter Thread -- Mark Thread Read.
Oh, the real point is a point with which no one would disagree --
That noone will turn pro merely by posts in this ng.
All the rest is mess and haughtiness, off-topic as can be...
Just let us write. What goal we cite's _our_ business, seems to me.
Now this thread is at an end. No more. Send no more, friend.
Now the New Year comes around. Joy abounds -- futures found --
Now it's time to party like it is 1999!
('Cause it almost is....)
Leave threads for champagne and wine -- Auld lang syne! Auld lang syne!
Maureen, who will most certainly keep on writing filk and fanfic,
translating medieval Irish poetry, singing, reading, and hanging out on
newsgroups and mailing lists...because it's fun, and because she serves
God and the world that way. But she will do all of it, as well as the
work she is paid for, as well as she can -- because to do otherwise is
dishonest and an insult to her God, who makes all things well.
stillwater16
incarnation. i did the one thing i never never never do: i openly participated
in a war. not only that, i responded to a troll, and one that was already
taken! <knocking head on floor>
i sentence myself to one less piece of mince pie and a half-hour of 'judge
judy'.
stillwater16, groveling
In article <3687B6D0...@dnaco.net>, Maureen says...
ord...@aol.com
> She is quite conveniently selectively reading his posts, however. Mr.
> Ordover never said fanfiction shouldn't be written, hmm? Oh just forget
> about the leader/follower, riding on others' coat tails, and the analogy
> with criminals posts.
Fan fiction =is= being a follower, not a leader. You =are= riding on other's
coat-tails. That has nothing to do with whether you should be writing fan
fiction for fun.
And for the second time -- the post about criminals learning to be lawyers =
wasn't mine= and was offered as a =defense= of fan fiction, the analogy
(theirs, not mine) being that some criminals learned enough law while in
prison to win even though they weren't lawyers. Please stop attributing this
analogy to me -- it wasn't mine and was posted -in defense of- fan fiction.
Then again, Cyberpunk made slightly less subtle
> statements to the same effect a few months ago in her more trollish
> incarnation.
> Both Mr. Ordover and Cyberpunk have mentioned people in other Ngs
> expressing some belief that they can be "discovered" from writing fanfiction
> as justification for their attacks on people in *this* Ng. I don't know if
> this is true or not. Frankly, I don't care enough to verify this via
> DejaNews. All I know, is no one *here* expressed this belief; so I see no
> point in their trying to refute this delusion in *this* Ng.
Several people in this ng have posted that fan fiction is good practice for
their future writing career. Go back to the beginning of the EW ARTICLE
th4read and read forward, you'll find them.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
punk...@yahoo.com
> On 28 Dec 1998 04:22:11 GMT, miss...@aol.com (MissElise) wrote:
>
> >I have tried to stay out of this, but I have to say: John Ordover is right.
> >It took me a long time to realize that, but I finally understand what he's
> >saying.
Yes. He is.
> >
> >Also, not getting feedback for the stories is equally hard (rejection slips
> >from editors suck). That's the one thing fanfic is good for--people who
scream
> >for more, no matter how mediocre the writing may be. Need an ego
stroke--post
> >some fanfic.
Yes. Yes. Yes.
> >
> >I may get flamed for that, but the worse piece of fanfic I ever wrote pulled
in
> >tons of "more more more" feedback, and I shook my head, not understanding why
> >my best pro piece was being rejected time and again. *Totally* different
> >arenas---and they always will be.
I can believe it.
> >
> >So, there are my two quatloos. Ordover is right in that if you want to be a
> >pro author, your focus should be on profic. That was *hard* for me to
> >admit--but it's true.
Accepting reality is never easy. Kudos to you!
Punkie.
punk...@yahoo.com
ord...@aol.com wrote:
>
>
> > She is quite conveniently selectively reading his posts, however. Mr.
> > Ordover never said fanfiction shouldn't be written, hmm? Oh just forget
> > about the leader/follower, riding on others' coat tails, and the analogy
> > with criminals posts.
You are inferring meaning. I read the leader/follower comments etc. He is
RIGHT. Writing fan-fiction IS using other peoples' creations. You don't have
to establish character. You don't have to create the world. All that is done
for you.
How you come to the conclusion that this means you SHOULDN'T write fan-fiction
is a mystery.
>
> Fan fiction =is= being a follower, not a leader. You =are= riding on other's
> coat-tails. That has nothing to do with whether you should be writing fan
> fiction for fun.
GADS!! What is so hard to understand here?!!
>
> And for the second time -- the post about criminals learning to be lawyers =
> wasn't mine= and was offered as a =defense= of fan fiction, the analogy
Reading comprehension folks. Stop shouting long enough to actually LISTEN.
>
> Then again, Cyberpunk made slightly less subtle
> > statements to the same effect a few months ago in her more trollish
> > incarnation.
Yes. Yes I did. As you have proven over and over again, subtlty doesn't
work with you folks.
Learn the meaning of troll. Y'all misuse it on a constant basis.
> > Both Mr. Ordover and Cyberpunk have mentioned people in other Ngs
> > expressing some belief that they can be "discovered" from writing fanfiction
> > as justification for their attacks on people in *this* Ng. I don't know if
> > this is true or not. Frankly, I don't care enough to verify this via
> > DejaNews. All I know, is no one *here* expressed this belief; so I see no
Of course not. Why bother yourself with FACTS?? It's so much more fun to
scream TROOOOLLLL.
> > point in their trying to refute this delusion in *this* Ng.
This delusion has been posted in this group. Oh, sorry I forgot. You don't
CARE about facts.
>
> Several people in this ng have posted that fan fiction is good practice for
> their future writing career. Go back to the beginning of the EW ARTICLE
> th4read and read forward, you'll find them.
OH NO. That would mean finding out that she is WRONG. That would be too much
for her fragile egg-shell mind.
Punkie, who sees this group is as aggressively ignorant as ever.
punk...@yahoo.com
Mo. Mo. MO.
My buddy. How have you been?!!
> Now that we have finally reached a stopping point in this long, long,
> incredibly off-topic, bandwidth-wasting, and not-even-fun thread...I
Oh. I have been sooo misguided. Here I thought we were having an
informative, albeit frustrating conversation about fan-fiction.
Thank you for setting me right yet again.
You know soooo much. How I wish I were as smart as you and knew everything
about everything.
> think it's time for the summing-up filk. Let the fat lady sing, and
Don't tear yourself down this way. It pains me.
>
> (Btw, Punkie (not to be confused with the recently returned Punk M/
> Punk Maneuverability) is my personal troll, last seen on this ng in
> August and returned again to chastise us for our sins. Reply to her not,
> for she is mine and mine alone.)
Oh babe. Share. Remember kindergarden? It's not nice to be soo selfish.
There is plenty of me to go around.
Look up troll in your guidebook. My previous comments on this thread, while
unwelcome and annoying to many don't qualify. This is not an easy admission
for me to make. I have fallen in my mission and actually got sucked into a
discussion. You see? You have almost gotten your wish. Turning me into a
contributing member. Although you don't care for my message. Sigh. I hope
to one day EARN your love. <sniff>
>
>
> Maureen, who will most certainly keep on writing filk and fanfic,
Yay!!! YOU GO GIRLFRIEND.
> translating medieval Irish poetry, singing, reading, and hanging out on
> newsgroups and mailing lists...because it's fun, and because she serves
> God and the world that way. But she will do all of it, as well as the
Ahhh. The delusion of God. The last refuge of scoundrels. While you are at
it, pray for comprehension.
Oh why bother. It is much more fun living in ignorance eh?
> work she is paid for, as well as she can -- because to do otherwise is
> dishonest and an insult to her God, who makes all things well.
Wellll.... if he/she/it made you....oh never mind. Too easy.
Punkie, who thanks Mo for replying, if indirectly, and making my day.
(I never did get to Dayton. Let's reschedule lunch, shall we? Now that you
know that I am a woman we can go shopping afterwards. It will be soo much
fun.)
punk...@yahoo.com
> >>
> >i think you misunderstood my post, so i'll clarify, even though my troll
radar
> >is going off at a frantic rate.
No. It seems I understood exactly what you are saying.
> >
> >ordover is employed by an industry to whom fanfiction is at least indirect,
and
> >possibly direct, competition. it would be wholly illogical for him to
promote
> >the writing of fanfiction as an individual metier or as a step to
professional
Maybe because it's NOT?!!! Just because you don't like the message doesn't
make it less true.
> >writing. it isn't very sensible to expect to convince him that fanfiction
has a
> >vital and important life of its own *outside* the hopes of those who see it
as a
> >way into the industry. and since he seems to think fanfic is invalid as
'real
> >writing', in my view, he is *wrong*.
PEOPLE. PEOPLE. PEOPLE. Where has he said that fan-fiction is "invalid as
real writing"?
I have read comments from him telling y'all that fan-fiction will NOT help
you get into the pro-fiction door. I have read comments that tell y'all IF
you want to go professional, try creating your own world, top to bottom and
get criticsm from professional writers/editors. NOT necessarly him.
> >
> >fanfic writers are not going to convince him; he isn't going to convince us.
> >period.
You remind me of a child with hands over ears. "I am not listening, I am not
listening. LA LA LA". You walk into this debate (actually that is not the
right word, Ordover is the professional in this case, he has experience in
this venue, where you have none. ) set with your pre-conceived ideas. No
matter what the reality is, you wish to choose to ignore it. That is your
perogative.
For those who KEEP insisting that Ordover is telling you not to post
fan-fiction, please cite examples. Idiotic examples such as "he told us
fan-fiction was being a follower not a leader" is not acceptable. This IS
TRUE and besides doesn't explicitly tell you to STOP writing fan-fiction.
As far as I can tell the man has NEVER said "don't write fan fiction, you are
a bunch of nutty obsessed wierdos".
The message is (for the umpteenth time) DON'T THINK FAN FICTION WILL HELP YOU
GO PROFESSIONAL. IF YOU WANT TO GO PRO CREATE YOUR OWN WORLD.
If you interpret that as don't read/write fan fiction then that is your loss.
You obviously have some insecurities about this whole topic.
> >
> >no helicoptors, no conspiracy, and all the facts you want. and my last word
on
> >the subject.
FACTS? What facts? All I read were some baseless accusations.
You make the charge that Ordover is somehow trying to discourage you because
his profits might be endangered by this newsgroup. LUDICROUS. If this was
true then FOX and Viacom would shut these groups down so fast your heads
would spin.
The lawyers would be sending cease and desist notices to each and every one of
you. What you do IS copyright violation. If you were a threat to revenue ,
nobody would need to plant an operative, threats to sue would suffice.
Everyone would have to go back underground as they were in the 70s.
GADS!!!
What is so hard to understand here????!!!
> >
> >stillwater16, humming 'troll, troll, troll your boat...'
Gently down the stream....
Punkie, who wishes folks could distinguish trolling and content. However she
knows it is a futile dream.
ORDOVER
dialogue, he's interested in proving the worth of his professional credentials
and his professional advice.
There's a great deal of truth in what he says about the publishing world,
publishers/editors/writing guidelines. If you think you're going to get the
next great X Files novel contract, you've been spending a little too long at
the
eggnog bowl.
However, I and others have offered to open a reasonable dialogue with him, but
he's having much more fun poking at people with his so-called professional
writing credentials and his 'successes'. I wish him the best with them, but
he's not the kind of guy I'd work with period. IMHO, he's the kind of guy who
takes the worst crap of all and foists it on people who desperately need to
continue living in the Star Trek universe. They buy it because it's a Star
Trek
novel, not because it's good. Despite this, he does have good writers in his
'stable'. Diane Duane, who writes original fantasy, has written some wonderful
Star Trek novels. Go read her stuff if you want to see lovely, elegant, and
humane fantasy. Diane Carey has written some great Star Trek novels. Janet
Kagan, who I think is one of the undersung voices in Sci-fi has written at
least
one Star Trek novel. Somehow, I doubt they were working under Mr. Ordover's
regime, because they are too good. In the last five years, I've picked up Star
Trek novels for my daughter, who was a Next Gen fan. Most of them--not all,
mind you--are crap. They're good for doorstops once she's read them, but she
doesn't go back to them like the ones I purchased ten years earlier. Those she
reads and rereads precisely because they were written by the likes of Diane
Duane and Janet Kagan. She's gone on to read both Duane and Kagan in other
venues as well, because they're good.
Mr. Ordover is right that less than 10% of the population buys 90% of the
books.
Sad, but true. Some fraction of that 10% is still living in their parents
basement, gaming on the computer, wearing Spock ears, and buying any drek that
Ordover's ilk turns out.
Mass publishers are about money, kids, not about quality. You want to write
quality, find a small publisher and hone your craft until you write so tightly
you squeak. Literary agents are about money, too. It doesn't matter if you
have the next War and Peace, if your agent doesn't think it's saleable, you're
outa there. It's about money. Not about quality.
Case in point: I like Richard Walker's novels--Jessica Coran, FBI pathologist,
tracking serial killers. Quality? He comes up with gritty, horrifying ideas,
and while they're tense and suspenseful, he doesn't rub your nose in every
detail of the killing. He does, however, have the WORST jumping spiders (POV
shifts every other paragraph) I've ever seen, bar none. He uses the stalest and
most tired descriptive phrases. Does he hold my attention despite this? Yes.
Is he great? No. Is he good? Yes. Could he be better? Hell yes.
Is he real quality? I would say not. But I buy them and read them because I'm
a suspense thriller junkie. David Wiltse, who writes the John Becker, FBI nut
novels is another case in point. Three of his novels are what I'd call great
stories. Another three are what I privately call contract novels--he had a
contract, he finished 'em, they're readable, and ultimately forgettable. We
all
have bad days, and when you write for a living, you have to produce on time,
quality or not.
Michael Slade, who is actually two Canadian attorneys, writes gruesome
thrillers
that evidently sell very well. I'm guilty of buying them--hey, when I have the
flu, I settle down with a stack of horror novels and thrillers because it
distracts me from being sick. The characterization is so over the top they
make
Dickens look understated. The POV switches are hysterical. They have
absolutely NO conception of female characters, so those are even funnier. But,
they tell a decent yarn and they tell it well. Quality writing? Jesus, no.
But they sell.
Mr. Ordover is talking apples and oranges. If you're having fun here, keep
having fun. I write fanfic to distract myself when I'm stewing over my
original
fic. It's the equivalent, as I've said, of buying a box of Godiva truffles and
eating them, only it's fat free and calorie free. If you're having fun only
writing fanfic and don't care if you ever sell anything, more power to you. If
you're writing here to get some of the mechanics right before moving on, more
power to you. If you write for the pleasure of it and not to publish, more
power to you.
Now, please, don't tease the schmuck any more. Let him go find someone else to
torment. If he really wanted an intelligent dialogue, he's had more than ample
opportunity to begin one with SEVERAL people. He's deliberately misread
several
others who posted intelligently and mildly on the subject of his rants. He's
got a one track mind and an investment in proving that he's right and that the
people who disagree with him are losers. And I swear, no matter what, he's
getting a little giddy on his substance of choice and coming over here to have
fun.
Let him get his holiday cheer elsewhere, okay? Just say NO!
bliss<<
Bliss, it seems like you're agreeing with me on every single point I've made,
save you still insist that writing fan fiction is good practice for writing pro
fiction (and others, take note -- bliss -did- say that, right here in this
newsgroup). As you say "If you're having fun here, keep having fun." But if
you want to be pro writer, you have to learn FROM pro writers what PRO WRITING
is about. You can't learn that here, because the mechanics are very, very
different. Bliss, did any of those authors you buy so many books by write fan
fiction? Or are they writing their own fiction?
John Ordover
Executive Editor
Star Trek Fiction
Pocket Books
For more Trek Book Info:
www.startrekbooks.com
E/C Marks
punk...@yahoo.com wrote:
> You are inferring meaning. I read the leader/follower comments etc. He is
> RIGHT. Writing fan-fiction IS using other peoples' creations. You don't have
> to establish character. You don't have to create the world. All that is done
> for you.
And exactly what is the Star Trek novels he publishes .... following on the
footsteps or Rodenberry and crew ... where's the difference.
Cyberpunk ... why don't you quit hiding behind pseudonyms and post an email adress
that won't come back undelivered.
> Punkie, who sees this group is as aggressively ignorant as ever.
And is showing his/her ignorance and lack of manners as well.
E. Marks <--- a real name
d.LiNeAtE
We're not in a damn workshop on creative writing here,
ok ! This is a NG where we post XF- fanfiction. This in
no way reflects our other writing capabilities as we have
to limit ourselves to a certain pre-defined universe and
a certain way of character development.
Just thought I'd mention this ...
Everyone has a home here, provided they actually write
fanfiction. Nothing else matters but that. Did we ever
claim to have higher aspirations ? No, we don't need to
do that ...
Does Mr. O write fanfiction ? Oh, I really really wonder !
Listen pall ...
It doesn't matter how we do it or if we're good or bad,
whether we really want to "become professional writers"
(= amateurs often screwed over by publishers) or not.
That is not and should not be the issue here.
Whether we're just walking in our keyboards because
the damn keys are just too rigid or whether we have
side-projects in writing ... it doesn't matter here ...
We are united because we all write (who cares for
what purpose) and we love the show. No need for
anyone to know or to demand to know more.
And another thing ... PROFESSIONAL ????
What is a professional writer ? Yes, let's finally get that
straight, someone who gets paid for doing exactly the
same thing to different characters.
What I'm really saying is ...
The initial ability doesn't change, it can only mature and
how we let it mature is our business and I'm sure it varies
for everyone.
Let me tell you ...
You can't one day decide to become a writer if that ability
isn't within you. You either are or you aren't. It's a raw urge.
Some are just better than others, but only the industry cares
about what they call "good" (which isn't necessarily the right
meaning of the word) and put it onto the same level, right next
to ... guess what ... "professional" only because they think it
will sell big.
This NG doesn't deal with these creeps and we don't owe
anyone any explanation.
If we want to be published, we'll do our best to get that far
(submit ourselves to those creeps) and not waste any words
on it.
It isn't something to be discussed here.
What's good about this NG is that we all write (no matter
how bad or how good we all have a voice here) and we all
read each other's work. Writers get judged by writers here
and that's a hell of a lot different than being judged by stuck
up little pricks or elitist bastards who think they know what
writing is all about because they have *studied* it or maybe
because somehow they think they know more about it ... as
if getting paid to do the exact same thing makes a difference.
Even then, I'll still make up my own mind.
If I want feedback, I'll ask someone who can write a nice
paragraph and who knows where I'm coming from any day,
instead of someone who can analyse it to death because
they've ... what ... had a course on it in college or wherever
... but can't link two sentences together in a million years ?
Answer me this ...
Is a girl that plays guitar on a street corner any less of an
artist because she doesn't make big bucks or doesn't have
a contract ? Will you fall into the trap by saying she's just an
amateur and therefore less of an artist ?
It doesn't work that way.
(Go read R.M.Rilke, maybe you'll learn something.)
Hey pall, I know the emperor's nose and it can smell shit from
a mile away, so who even cares about the length of it !
If you can't contribute anything creative, fuck off or didn't you
know that the first symptom of professionalism is that you don't
take lessons from anyone, you just do what you have to and
take whatever comes next.
So beam back to where you came from and let's hope at least
someone will still be able to get you to materialise ...
d.
(... who isn't even trying, says: "First and last time I get into a
discussion like this.")
Teddi Litman
>Fan fiction =is= being a follower, not a leader. You =are= riding on
other's
>coat-tails. That has nothing to do with whether you should be writing fan
>fiction for fun.
>
And as was said too many times to mentioned, the *many* unknown people who
created the rich universe of King Arthur and the knights of the round table
would likely disagree. It is a different, uncommercial, underappreciated
form of storytelling not a lesser form. "Asking" (without really caring
about the answer) people who write fanfiction if it wouldn't be better if
they spent their free time creating their own stuff (I would argue *nothing*
about plot or even character is truly original.) instead of "riding on
someone else's coat-tails" since they are doing it for free anyway *is*
denegrating fanfiction. It certainly *is* suggesting it shouldn't be
written, even if the writer has no desire to make money from writing
fiction. (It basically *is* intruding on amatuer sport fishermen enjoying a
respite *away* from whatever they do to earn a living, to inform them they
are fishing in the wrong streams!) As I pointed out, Cyberpunk pretty much
said the same thing a few months ago when she told us to all get a life and
that fanfiction was just plagiarism anyway.
>And for the second time -- the post about criminals learning to be lawyers
=
>wasn't mine= and was offered as a =defense= of fan fiction, the analogy
>(theirs, not mine) being that some criminals learned enough law while in
>prison to win even though they weren't lawyers. Please stop attributing
this
>analogy to me -- it wasn't mine and was posted -in defense of- fan fiction.
>
These are *your* words are they not?
>Would you hire a lawyer whose professional training came from posting
>lots of "fan fiction" legal briefs to a newsgroup containing no
>professional lawyers, and who had been guided by
>those non-lawyers in structuring their briefs?
You do realize that anyone who poses as a lawyer without the proper training
is a criminal (except perhaps in California, which is a totally aberrant
world sometimes anyway) don't you? Yet you did see fit to make an analogy
with these people and fanfiction writers. At best, it is a totally idiotic
analogy; at worst, it is a snarky, intentional snub.
Teddi
R. Scott Carr
> ...and here's the post that will really get me flamed. Don't you
> think it's at all possible that someone who is both a professional
> fiction riter and a professional fiction
> editor (an editor -- the person whose job it is to buy stuff from
> writers) might know -more- about what it's important for a writer to
> practice, and so on, then someone who isn't?
Not if he's clearly a fool.
No points, btw, for identifying the logical fallacy implicit in Ordover's post.
--
Scott Carr
http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/7503
bliss
bliss
"I am not an angry girl/but it seems like I've got
Teddi Litman
E/C Marks <mem...@execpc.com> wrote:
>
>
>Cyberpunk ... why don't you quit hiding behind pseudonyms and post an email
adress
>that won't come back undelivered.
Nah, much easier to lord over us how much more superior she is. She just
loves to cloud anything worthwhile she might have to offer in insults just
so she can berate us when we don't *seem* to get the message. Mr. Ordover
does the same thing on a slightly more subtle level. As has been said,
there would likely be no real problem with Mr. Ordover's message that
fanfiction is not good stepping stone for embarking on a career in writing
with the modern commercial publishing universe as it is *if* his true
disdain towards fanfiction in general didn't come leaking out in almost
every post.
Teddi
Teddi Litman
punk...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>
>
>> > Both Mr. Ordover and Cyberpunk have mentioned people in other Ngs
>> > expressing some belief that they can be "discovered" from writing
fanfiction
>> > as justification for their attacks on people in *this* Ng. I don't
know if
>> > this is true or not. Frankly, I don't care enough to verify this via
>> > DejaNews. All I know, is no one *here* expressed this belief; so I see
no
>
>Of course not. Why bother yourself with FACTS?? It's so much more fun to
>scream TROOOOLLLL.
>
>
>> > point in their trying to refute this delusion in *this* Ng.
>
>
>This delusion has been posted in this group. Oh, sorry I forgot. You
don't
>CARE about facts.
>>
Ok, when I stated I had no desire to do a DejaNews search, I meant I had no
interest in what was going on in *other* Ngs as it really has no bearing in
Mr. Ordover's responses to the people in this group. If someone *here* has
posted the delusion that one can be "discovered" writing fanfiction, I
apologize. Heck, I apologize even if no such posts can be found; because I
shouldn't have stated an absolute ... that *no one* here engages in that
fantasy. I'm sure there *is* likely one or two starry-eyed kids around here
who may indulge in such a fantasy. (And is there anything really, truly
wrong with that? When I was about 10, I fantasized about getting recruited
to be the next Charlie's Angel ...wince, I know, I know. No one had to set
me straight. I just outgrew it; none the worse for wear. This is a bit what
Bliss has been saying if *you* have been paying attention: Mr. Ordover seems
to love picking on the kids the most. In other words, he's a bully!)
However, I still see no reason to persist in refuting this fantasy as if it
were a much more widespread delusion.
Teddi
John Ordover
No, what I was doing is an analogy, showing that one would not rely on
professional training in law (or medicine, or whatever) gleened by
posting on the nets and "learning" from the feedback. Since you
wouldn't trust a lawyer or doctor who had recieved their training that
way, why would you think that would be a good way to get training as a
writer?
Maryilee
what it appears everyone is saying.
Mr.Ordover and Punkie have stated over and over that writing fanfiction will
not help you in writing profic.
Many X-Files writers have stated that writing in any form is good because it's
practice and hopefully you get feedback that tells you what works and what
doesn't work.
I think where all the confusion comes in is that maybe what Mr.Ordover means to
say that writing fanfic won't get you discovered and published. This is
probably very true. Way back in the beginning of this thread, there was a list
of pro authors who had also written fanfic, but I don't *think* that anyone
ever claimed that these pro authors had been *discovered* through the fanfic
that they wrote--just that writing fanfic didn't hinder them from becoming pro
authors.
The fanfic writers already know that publishers aren't lurking here waiting to
discover the next Steinbeck. However, that doesn't mean that writing fanfic is
not a valid way to hone your writing skills.
My own personal experience of writing fanfic, (very limited XFile fanfic, but
quite a few for another television show) has been that the writing of fanfic
has helped me tremendously with the technical aspects of writing. Now, I never
wrote a thing before I wrote my first fanfic a year or so ago. I read tons of
books, but when it came down to actually putting all the thoughts that had been
racing around my head onto paper, I was stumped about the very basics of
grammar. I had never taken a writing class, and seventh grade English class
was a long time ago.
I may have learned some to these things by writing my own characters, but I
wouldn't have had anyone to point out my errors, and so, would have continued
blissfully unaware of how terrible my grammar was. I'm getting better with
each story, and maybe someday in the future I'll be ready to write my own
story. In the meantime I'll continue to write fanfic and earn a living at my
real job.
So, I guess what I'm trying to say is that I dont' think there is a clear
answer to who is wrong and who is right because both sides have made valid
points.
Mary
Teddi Litman
Ord...@aol.com (John Ordover) wrote:
>
>No, what I was doing is an analogy, showing that one would not rely on
>professional training in law (or medicine, or whatever) gleened by
>posting on the nets and "learning" from the feedback. Since you
>wouldn't trust a lawyer or doctor who had recieved their training that
>way, why would you think that would be a good way to get training as a
>writer?
I don't really need to trust a writer's training; I just have to like the
story. The *learning* people are talking about here is not about *training*
for a potential career. Not all learning is only important when it comes to
training for a job. The fanfic reading audience *is* "an audience that
matters" to fanfic writers. I would like to think we are an important part
of this particular form of storytelling experience.
Ok, now you or your new supporter, Cyberpunk might return with the claim
you didn't mean the "audience that matters" comment as an insult or I took
this out of context. However, it is statements like this one and analogies
with smarmy fake "lawyers", regardless of whatever your actual point was,
that reveal your disdain for us. That's why you bug the hell out of us. Now
your friend Cyberpunk will likely say it is really only the point that
matters or that is is the harsh presentation that best gets it across. She
just loves expressing her disdain of us even when presenting valid points.
You do the same thing only on a slightly more subtle level. It's not that
we don't get the point. We get the point. It was just irrelevent, unasked
for, and therefore totally unwelcome. We're not discounting you; we just
don't like you. We also don't like being insulted by Cyberpunk either even
though there are grains of truth hidden in all those nasty insults.
Using your fishing analogy again:
Maybe one in a hundred of those amateur fishermen might say to himself,
"Hey I think I'll like to try to make a living doing this." He will then
*seek out* information about how to go about it. He might even appreciate
the pro who comes in and tells all those weekend fishermen, "Hey if any of
you amateurs want to get REAL about this and are looking to do this
professionally, you are fishing in the wrong streams!" The other 99 will be
annoyed this weenie is intruding on their fun.
Teddi
John Ordover
I'm sorry, but HOW is it intruding on -anyone's- fun to post "If you
want to be a pro author you have to do something else?" If you
-don't- want to, what's the big deal? Especially since there's
certainly no rule you have to read -any- post that isn't relevent to
you?
Instead, I've been repeatedly attacked for saying things I've never
said, and
for holding opinions I've never stated. Once again, for the record,
let me state where I stand:
1) If you want to be a pro writer, writing fan fiction is not the way
to achive that.
2) If you don't want to a pro writer, have fun (and there's really no
reason to bother reading my posts about how to become a pro writer)
Because of the above, nothing that follows has ANY relevence to
someone who -doesn't- want to be a pro author. If
DOES want to do that, the only audience that matters is a
professional one, since it will be professionals deciding whether or
not to pay you for your story. Figuring out how professionals want
things is akin to figuring out how a particular professor likes papers
written to get a good grade -- the best way to do that is to talk to
someone who took the class the semester before and got an A, and see
what they've learned about him. Someone who DOESN'T want to be a pro
author won't find this relevent, just like someone not taking a class
with that professor wouldn't, and so can do anything they want.
You seem to be upset that I'm making a bunch of posts that aren't
relevent to you or to someone who isn't interested in being a pro
author. To which I reply, so what? Someone who isn't interested will
just stop reading the posts. Those few that really want to know what
to do to turn pro (and I've heard from at least half a dozen so far,
over and above those brave enough to post here) can stay tuned, others
can just tune out. What's the big deal?
John Ordover
Ah, but Mary, until you actually make the jump to your own stories,
you'll never learn what you really need to know, beyond the basics, to
be a pro author. You have to learn how to introduce an entirely new
world and set of characters while still hooking the audience. Fan
fiction will never teach you that.
MERRICAT K
>want to be a pro author you have to do something else?" If you
>-don't- want to, what's the big deal? Especially since there's
>certainly no rule you have to read -any- post that isn't relevent to
>you?
It's an XF fanfic writers' ng; you're posting *about* XF fanfic writers &
writing. Maybe if you'd tried using a subject along the lines of "If you want
to write pro fiction" rather than the (deliberately?) inflammatory ones you've
chosen, this pretense at innocence would hold water. Instead you make snarky,
insulting little posts that don't answer the questions asked. (Are you having
trouble recognizing the questions? Maybe instead of a ?, if a person put
<request for response> at the end it would be easier for you?) Maybe the whole
thing is that people feel that if they're going to be insulted (which you have
done in tone if not in words) they'd rather it not be behind their backs.
>Instead, I've been repeatedly attacked for saying things I've never
>said, and for holding opinions I've never stated. Once again, for the record,
>let me state where I stand:
These are bad things that have happened to you--so, since you've made your
point (*repeatedly*), why do you keep posting here<request for response>
>1) If you want to be a pro writer, writing fan fiction is not the way
>to achive that.
It's not the final step; it can be a valuable early step, as other people have
stated.
>2) If you don't want to a pro writer, have fun (and there's really no
>reason to bother reading my posts about how to become a pro writer)
Except to find out what pot-shots are being taken at us.
>Because of the above, nothing that follows has ANY relevence to
>someone who -doesn't- want to be a pro author. If
> DOES want to do that, the only audience that matters is a
>professional one, since it will be professionals deciding whether or
>not to pay you for your story.
<analogy snipped>
This is such a sad commentary on pro writing, it makes me exceedingly glad I
have my menial, low-paying, get-it-out-fast,-not-good job to support myself
while I soar in my writing. I would hate for it to be the other way around.
>You seem to be upset that I'm making a bunch of posts that aren't
>relevent to you or to someone who isn't interested in being a pro
>author. To which I reply, so what? Someone who isn't interested will
>just stop reading the posts. Those few that really want to know what
>to do to turn pro (and I've heard from at least half a dozen so far,
>over and above those brave enough to post here) can stay tuned, others
>can just tune out. What's the big deal?
It's not relevancy, it's tone & attitude. You can't go around sneering at
things people put their hearts and souls into & expect them not to be upset.
Is that really so hard to understand<request for response>
Merricat
"We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars."
--Oscar Wilde (quoted from memory)
The Woodwards
poorly thought out, poorly spelled and poorly presented notes. It appears
he's unable to approach any point I've made with anything even remotely
resembling a cogent argument, so he attempts to skirt the issue by repeating
his blather in the direction of others, mindlessly regurgitating the same
(already refuted) ideas.
>>So, I guess what I'm trying to say is that I dont' think there is a clear
>>answer to who is wrong and who is right because both sides have made valid
>>points.
>Ah, but Mary, until you actually make the jump to your own stories,
>you'll never learn what you really need to know, beyond the basics, to
>be a pro author. You have to learn how to introduce an entirely new
>world and set of characters while still hooking the audience. Fan
>fiction will never teach you that.
And what have we discussed, time and again, during this thread, Mr
Ordover? We discussed the absolute necessity of building an active and
dynamic writing voice, of learning the importance of well-structured plot.
THESE are the essentials of the masters of the writing craft and THESE are
the skeletons over which such things as "worlds" are laid. And these are
also skills that can be learned writing ANY sort of fiction, whether it be
fan fiction on a newsgroup, short stories for a local writers' club or works
written for one's own amusement.
What I find doubly interesting is that your area of expertise, so
obviously not debate, is in the publishing of books based on licensed
settings. Nothing new there. Nothing that would inculcate the skill of
introducing entirely new worlds and casts of characters. So what, if
anything, do you feel a writer could learn from submitting professionally to
your or your colleagues, especially considering you place so little stock in
the fundamental building blocks of well-structured fiction?
These redundant posts you have made remind me of the scratched-record
mental skipping of an autistic. Incapable of approaching the subject in any
fresh or original way, incapable of proceeding to the next step in the
conversational evolution.
You've amply demonstrated during your time in this thread your total
ignorance of the craft of writing and it is this, and this alone, which
draws so much ire from my corner. It's obvious you believe in your
viewpoint, but you are incapable of supporting that viewpoint with any
amount of reason, nor can you provide defense when the words you DO use to
rally your cause are yanked out from beneath you.
Add to this your philistine hostility to academia, shown time and again
when you split the hair of "professional" to exclude the academic. How
anyone could legitimately believe that education is somehow harmful and
still profess to be truly part of the literary world... the hypocrisy is so
thick as to be disgusting.
These "basics" to which you refer in the above post are, in fact, the
most important ingredients to any successful piece of prose fiction: use of
the language and structure of the plot.
But, then, if you'd been paying attention in class, you would have known
that already.
The Woodwards
>I'm sorry, but HOW is it intruding on -anyone's- fun to post "If you
>want to be a pro author you have to do something else?" If you
>-don't- want to, what's the big deal? Especially since there's
>certainly no rule you have to read -any- post that isn't relevent to
>you?
I imagine it has something to do with the idea that someone is hacking
at the foundation of literacy, of command of language and a genuine love for
the craft of writing. That may very well have something to do with it,
don't you think? It's certainly why I've gotten involved.
The major problem that your detractors, including myself, seem to have
with your "point" is that you, displaying so little understanding of what
writing IS and is not, flatly demand writers who desire to be "professional"
immediately cease writing what they are writing in order to write something
YOU deem worthy of their attention. This is arrogance of monumental
proportions and an attitude that should be thoroughly examined.
However -- and this is what's got on MY nerves -- you aren't interested
in an evaluation of your point of view. Instead, you toddle along with your
indignance wrapped around yourself like a shield of some kind, ignoring the
gaping holes in your education and your arguments, rather than taking a
moment to determine for yourself if, perhaps, you should rethink.
It's a waste of time to once again repeat those points I've made up 'til
now concerning what writing is, what constitutes legitimate practice and so
on. You've busily ignored these statements so far and I imagine you will
continue to do so until it suits you to do otherwise. However, I refuse to
let you blow smoke in the direction of others who might be discouraged or
somehow swayed by your deeply-flawed and anti-literary statements.
>I've been repeatedly attacked for saying things I've never
>said, and
>for holding opinions I've never stated. Once again, for the record,
>let me state where I stand:
Actually, allow ME to state where you stand, via a quote from the
ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY article that began this entire debate: ""Fan writing...
should be abandoned at once by anyone who wants to be a pro writer of any
kind."
You'll note there's nothing here indicating that fan writers should "go
have fun," nor is there any suggestion of tolerance. Of course, there's
also nothing explicitly stating your hostility to education, your ignorance
of the tools and fundamentals of creative writing or your condescending and
very grating paternalistic attitude toward those on the newsgroup.
However, let's look at your reiteration:
>1) If you want to be a pro writer, writing fan fiction is not the way
>to achive that.
So you say, but where's the evidence of this? Where's the irrefutable
authority upon which you rely? There's been ample opportunity for you to
make your case in a lengthy and sufficiently-exampled manner, but it hasn't
been done. Why is that?
Where are the reasoned arguments to support your statement that
education cannot help a writer write? Where is your refutation of the use
of personal writings (i.e. journals, private fiction, etc.) that have no
public intersection with anyone, yet can yield powerful works? On what
basis do you legitimize the heroic stature you have lent the publishing
industry -- editors in particular, I might note?
These posts you make aren't warm-ups to the big speech, Mr Ordover, they
ARE the big speech. Statements without support or valid basis are simply
wastes of bandwidth, devoid of meaning. Conviction like yours MUST have a
grounding. Let's have it. Simply saying, "Because I said so" doesn't make
the grade.
>2) If you don't want to a pro writer, have fun (and there's really no
>reason to bother reading my posts about how to become a pro writer)
Which posts would these be? Where's the practical application of your
ideas?
Beyond the single post where you presented some VERY basic STAR TREK
guidelines, you have been singularly unhelpful. You've played naysayer to
the masses, not guiding light. Were you to do the latter, you'd probably
cease to hear an unkind word. HOWEVER, you haven't ceased, so neither do
the unkind words.
>...the only audience that matters is a
>professional one, since it will be professionals deciding whether or
>not to pay you for your story.
The only audience that matters is the READING one. As I've said before,
the editor who overlooks the talented writer is the editor who's out of a
job the minute another publishing house buys the manuscript HIS publishing
house could have bought. Talent and a mastery of the craft is self-evident,
only tangentially based upon the vagaries of typesetting and format to which
everyone must adhere.
>What's the big deal?
Hostility to the craft is always a big deal. A stubborn lack of
education (or the blatant misuse thereof) is a big deal. What you've said,
spewing hostility toward those learning the craft, not to mention the craft
itself, is a VERY big deal.
The time has more than come for you to have a look at what you're saying
and decide whether you REALLY wish to be known as the man who said, "Stop
writing, all you people. You're learning the wrong way."
punk...@yahoo.com
> >Mr.Ordover and Punkie have stated over and over that writing fanfiction will
> >not help you in writing profic
Mainly Ordover. I have been watching in awe how the masses fall over
themselves misunderstanding everything he said. When I see the total lack of
comprehension and logic-impaired responses I can't help but comment.
Besides, logic annoys so many on this group. It's fun!
> >
> >Many X-Files writers have stated that writing in any form is good because
it's
> >practice and hopefully you get feedback that tells you what works and what
> >doesn't work.
What does this mean?
Seriously (for a moment...)
If you are discussing grammar and other fun stuff like that, I agree. Writing
anything, including UseNet posts, help.
However if you are talking about a professional FICTION career, don't you
need practice in creating characters, worlds and situations? When you write
fanfic you don't have to draw the audience in (much). They know the people
,they know the settings, they know the history. You can borrow incidents
that happened on tv and incorporate it in your story.
Doesn't this generate lazy habits and not cultivate the skill of creating
compelling interesting characters and settings from SCRATCH which is KEY for
professionals?
> >
> >I think where all the confusion comes in is that maybe what Mr.Ordover means
to
> >say that writing fanfic won't get you discovered and published. This is
> >probably very true. Way back in the beginning of this thread, there was a
list
> >of pro authors who had also written fanfic, but I don't *think* that anyone
> >ever claimed that these pro authors had been *discovered* through the fanfic
> >that they wrote--just that writing fanfic didn't hinder them from becoming
pro
> >authors.
First of all the list was VERY limited. I don't think anyone came up with
more than 11 names? Some people claimed (OHHH MOOOOOOOO) that "most" SF
writers got their start in fanzines. However that claim was never backed up
with actual statistics. (surprise, surprise)
Secondly even your beloved Ms. Paula Graves is using an alias because, as she
acknowledged, fanfic (if only for political reasons) *does* hinder the author.
Others, MissElise for example, have come out with their personal experience
agreeing with the main argument Ordover makes.
> >
> >The fanfic writers already know that publishers aren't lurking here waiting
to
> >discover the next Steinbeck. However, that doesn't mean that writing fanfic
is
> >not a valid way to hone your writing skills.
What skills are you talking about? The skills you can hone writing fanfic
are skills you hone writing email, UseNet posts etc. People flame for
spelling and grammar errors all the time. You learn from this. (If you can
develop thick skin and get pass the "tone")
How are your honing your skills in creating characters that stand alone and
generate interest on their own merits? You *aren't*.
If you don't care and plan to become a doctor, lawyer or engineer then this is
irrelevant and shouldn't worry you. However if you are going to make a career
out of this, listen to somebody who has been where you are and is *trying* to
help you.
> >
> >My own personal experience of writing fanfic, (very limited XFile fanfic, but
> >quite a few for another television show) has been that the writing of fanfic
> >has helped me tremendously with the technical aspects of writing. Now, I
Writing ANYTHING helps with the technical aspects. However that is not
necessarly what makes compelling fiction. Read some of the greats and see
what attracts you? The grammar or the world that has been created?
> >
> >I may have learned some to these things by writing my own characters, but I
> >wouldn't have had anyone to point out my errors, and so, would have continued
> >blissfully unaware of how terrible my grammar was. I'm getting better with
Yes. You would have. There are many avenues to ask and receive HONEST
criticsm.
> >each story, and maybe someday in the future I'll be ready to write my own
> >story. In the meantime I'll continue to write fanfic and earn a living at my
> >real job.
BINGO. You are not the TARGET of Ordover's post pumpkin. You have a career,
you are doing this for FUN. The people Ordover is talking to are those who
think that fanfic will help them profressionaly and aren't concentrating on
the skills that profic demand. The ability to draw the reader in to a world
of which he/she has no knowledge yet after 5 minutes of starting your story
they don't want to put it down.
Fanfic doesn't demand this skill. We all know who Mulder and Scully are, we
know what they look like , sound like, where they live , their habits, their
co-workers, their enemys, are all known to us. You as a fanfic writer don't
have to develop personality, work world, antagonists, etc.
> >
> >So, I guess what I'm trying to say is that I dont' think there is a clear
> >answer to who is wrong and who is right because both sides have made valid
> >points.
There is a very clear answer. ORDOVER IS RIGHT. Fanfic is for fun. If you
want to go professional write your own stuff. Once you hone some of these
skills write all the fanfic you want on the side. However *if* you are
concentrating on fanfic to help you develop writing skills in the hope one
day you will be able to go pro and write that neat romance/sf/thriller book
that will take the market by storm you are barking up the wrong tree.
Punkie, who wonders why this is such a hard concept for everyone to get?
punk...@yahoo.com
> >are fishing in the wrong streams!) As I pointed out, Cyberpunk pretty much
> >said the same thing a few months ago when she told us to all get a life and
> >that fanfiction was just plagiarism anyway.
No. What I said was it is copyright violation and demonstrates lack of
creativity.
Which it is and it does.
If you want to use other people's words why not get it right rather than
attribute comments never made by them?
In this day of DejaNews it is very foolish.
> >
> >>And for the second time -- the post about criminals learning to be lawyers
> >=
>
> >
> >>Would you hire a lawyer whose professional training came from posting
> >>lots of "fan fiction" legal briefs to a newsgroup containing no
> >>professional lawyers, and who had been guided by
> >>those non-lawyers in structuring their briefs?
> >
Where does he speak of a criminal becoming a lawyer?
> >You do realize that anyone who poses as a lawyer without the proper training
> >is a criminal (except perhaps in California, which is a totally aberrant
> >world sometimes anyway) don't you? Yet you did see fit to make an analogy
HAHAHAHA. Oh I see. Babe. The criminal DOES NOT BECOME A LAWYER. The
person who POSES AS A LAWYER BECOMES A CRIMINAL. GET IT???!!
> >with these people and fanfiction writers. At best, it is a totally idiotic
> >analogy; at worst, it is a snarky, intentional snub.
If the shoe fits.....
>
> No, what I was doing is an analogy, showing that one would not rely on
> professional training in law (or medicine, or whatever) gleened by
> posting on the nets and "learning" from the feedback. Since you
Duh.
> wouldn't trust a lawyer or doctor who had recieved their training that
> way, why would you think that would be a good way to get training as a
> writer?
>
Because it requires little effort perhaps?
Punkie, who wishes that FOX was losing money because of this newsgroup.
punk...@yahoo.com
> > I don't really need to trust a writer's training; I just have to like the
> >story. The *learning* people are talking about here is not about *training*
> >for a potential career. Not all learning is only important when it comes to
Okay then. What is your problem? He wasn't aiming this post at you. He was
talking to those who WANT TO GO PROFESSIONAL.
> >training for a job. The fanfic reading audience *is* "an audience that
> >matters" to fanfic writers. I would like to think we are an important part
> >of this particular form of storytelling experience.
Awww. Your wittle bitty feewings were hurt.
You matter!! YOU MATTER.
> >
> > Ok, now you or your new supporter, Cyberpunk might return with the claim
> >you didn't mean the "audience that matters" comment as an insult or I took
I am a supporter of nobody. I am a supporter of LOGIC and REASON. Of which
you posses little of, so I can understand your confusion.
> >this out of context. However, it is statements like this one and analogies
> >with smarmy fake "lawyers", regardless of whatever your actual point was,
"Regardless of whatever your actual point was". HAHAHAHAHA
You don't care to learn do you? You just want to come here and chat and play
with out exercising that brain of yours?
Party on DUDE.
> >that reveal your disdain for us. That's why you bug the hell out of us. Now
So? Welcome to UseNet. If you can't take it.....
> >your friend Cyberpunk will likely say it is really only the point that
> >matters or that is is the harsh presentation that best gets it across. She
No. Only to those who are too thick to recognize subtlty
I have witnessed how all y'all jump on folks who make any comment that goes
against the vocal minority. I have seen how Maureen and others make plain
WRONG assertions yet NEVER come back and say ooops, sorry I was wrong. This
type of stupidity and arrogant ignorance MUST BE ADDRESSED.
> >
> >we don't get the point. We get the point. It was just irrelevent, unasked
> >for, and therefore totally unwelcome. We're not discounting you; we just
By who? By you and a few others? YOU DON'T SPEAK FOR EVERYONE. This is
UseNet. Create a moderated list and chat amongst yourself about how mean
people suck.
Using "we" on UseNet in order to make it sound as you are the elected
spokesman is plain stupid.
> >don't like you. We also don't like being insulted by Cyberpunk either even
> >though there are grains of truth hidden in all those nasty insults.
Why thank you. That must have been a painful admission.
> >
> >
> >professionally, you are fishing in the wrong streams!" The other 99 will be
> >annoyed this weenie is intruding on their fun.
Kill file babe. Kill file.
If you are sooo thin skinned that others stating FACTS that annoy you and
disturb your carefully crafted illusions intrude on your fun then UseNet is
not the place for you.
Have you ever wandered off this newsgroups into the ones with actual content?
The sci. groups, the comp. groups? Facts, logic and reason RULE.
Try thinking instead of this petty whining.
> >
>
OY!!!!!
Punkie, who wonders if these people are for real or is she falling for the
biggest troll bait in town? This level of stupidity can't be possible.
E/C Marks
> I'm sorry, but HOW is it intruding on -anyone's- fun to post "If you
> want to be a pro author you have to do something else?" If you
> -don't- want to, what's the big deal? Especially since there's
> certainly no rule you have to read -any- post that isn't relevent to
> you?
You are intruding .... no one wants to hear any longer what you preach. The horse
is dead, it has stunk for at least 35 posts and is now beginning to fossilize!
Why keep posting the same drivel over and over ... it isn't going to change my
mind nor am I going to change yours. PLEASE GO AWAY!
> Once again, for the record,
> let me state where I stand:
>
> 1) If you want to be a pro writer, writing fan fiction is not the way
> to achive that.
>
> 2) If you don't want to a pro writer, have fun (and there's really no
> reason to bother reading my posts about how to become a pro writer)
>
Your point has been made ad nauseum ... this corner of the universe is for
amateur writers who enjoy writing fan fiction and for those readers who want to
read it. Your expertise and opinions are moot ... since your world of
professional writing is NOT part of this newsgroup. I don't care about your
'rules of writing' ... I do care about the writers who try to communicate their
feelings and perceptions via their fan fiction stories.
Yes, there are stories that go from bad to very good on this newsgroup ... the
purpose being ENTERTAINMENT. Are you so hung up on dollars that you can't stand
the idea that someone might find pleasure from a source that lacks your stamp of
approval ... well get a grip on reality Mr. Ordover ... I passed the age of
consent long ago and don't require you as a domineering father-figure.
Several fan fiction authors have agreed that writing for a publishing house is
different than writing for fun. Accept that as your bone, wag your scruffy tail
and go take a long nap ... or at least do some constructive work. Your
analogies are snarky, your opinion of your worth overrated, and your insults of
this audience [newsgroup] worth to writing is on record. <<the only audience that
matters is a professional one, since it will be professionals deciding whether or
not to pay you for your story.>> [this ng -- the same people who vote on your
selections with their dollars].
I don't think 'bull in a china shop' even comes close to addressing your
ignorance and arrogance. Didn't your mother teach you "if you can't say
something nice ... then don't say anything at all."
<<Those few that really want to know what to do to turn pro (and I've heard from
at least half a dozen so far, over and above those brave enough to post here) can
stay tuned, others can just tune out. What's the big deal?>>
So carry on a private email conversation with those who do want your adivce. The
big deal is you've worn out your welcome on this group and are now merely an
obnoxious troll! Go back to your own sandbox and quit kicking up the dirt in
ours.
Oooh and I'm glad Merricat said the same thing I did <<It's not relevancy, it's
tone & attitude. You can't go around sneering at things people put their hearts
and souls into & expect them not to be upset.>>.
Perhaps Mr. Ordover you should start reading Miss Manners ... you truly lack in
them.
E. Marks
RKinsler
>Mainly Ordover. I have been watching in awe how the masses fall over
>themselves misunderstanding everything he said. When I see the total lack of
>comprehension and logic-impaired responses I can't help but comment.
>Besides, logic annoys so many on this group. It's fun!
>
What I find illogical (and uncomprehensible) is your insistence upon baselessly
supporting Ordover's statements, taking them as 'the Gospel', without providing
any kind of rational statements as to why you think he's right. You remind me
of a child that scornfully parrots the words of a parent back to its siblings,
then sticks its tongue out at them.
>> >Many X-Files writers have stated that writing in any form is good because
>it's
>> >practice and hopefully you get feedback that tells you what works and what
>> >doesn't work.
>
>What does this mean?
>
>Seriously (for a moment...)
>
>If you are discussing grammar and other fun stuff like that, I agree.
>Writing
>anything, including UseNet posts, help.
>
>However if you are talking about a professional FICTION career, don't you
>need practice in creating characters, worlds and situations? When you write
>fanfic you don't have to draw the audience in (much). They know the people
>,they know the settings, they know the history. You can borrow incidents
>that happened on tv and incorporate it in your story.
I think here is where we run into a serious difference of opinion. Really good
fanfiction stories work because they make the characters come to life,
sometimes in ways that even the small screen can't achieve. These stories do
draw the audience in (even non-fans). They have to conform to the
characterizations laid out on the show, yes, but writing to those
characterizations teaches the fanwriter to maintain internal consistency of
story and character. Is that not a valid skill to learn for use in original
stories?
As for creating situations...any writer has to do that in order to have a
story, whether they are a fanwriter posting to Usenet or John Grisham.
Borrowing incidents from TV can be used to make a story that much richer, or to
play a pivotal role in the tale itself. (Arguably, you could be doing the same
thing by incorporating something from the six o'clock news into your original
story.)
<big snip>
>> >
>> >I may have learned some to these things by writing my own characters, but
>I
>> >wouldn't have had anyone to point out my errors, and so, would have
>continued
>> >blissfully unaware of how terrible my grammar was. I'm getting better
>with
>
>
>Yes. You would have. There are many avenues to ask and receive HONEST
>criticsm.
Frankly, presenting fanfiction in a forum such as Usenet can gain you HONEST
criticism. When I first started posting Star Trek fanfiction, I became
friends with folks who also wrote. And you what? Three of the folks I ran
into have been published professionally, with original fiction works. I also
came into contact with several college professors (generally, English profs),
whoalso wrote fanfic. These kinds of contacts help to ensure that I receive
honest, valuable criticism of any story that I write, be it fanfic or original.
Therefore, it stands to reason that writing fanfic can improve your general
writing skills (pro or fanfiction).
<snip>
>> >So, I guess what I'm trying to say is that I dont' think there is a clear
>> >answer to who is wrong and who is right because both sides have made valid
>> >points.
>
>
>There is a very clear answer. ORDOVER IS RIGHT. Fanfic is for fun. If you
>want to go professional write your own stuff. Once you hone some of these
>skills write all the fanfic you want on the side. However *if* you are
>concentrating on fanfic to help you develop writing skills in the hope one
>day you will be able to go pro and write that neat romance/sf/thriller book
>that will take the market by storm you are barking up the wrong tree.
I think it's clear that YOU think Ordover is right. Whether or not he actually
is remains subject to opinion and debate.
>Punkie, who wonders why this is such a hard concept for everyone to get?
>
The concept isn't hard. Ordover doesn't think that fanfiction is useful in
starting a professional career. I just want to clarify in this post that I'm
not disputing Ordover's opinions (even if I don't agree with all of them). I'm
specifically responding to your post, Punkie.
RK
punk...@yahoo.com
> Add to this your philistine hostility to academia, shown time and again
> when you split the hair of "professional" to exclude the academic. How
> anyone could legitimately believe that education is somehow harmful and
> still profess to be truly part of the literary world... the hypocrisy is so
> thick as to be disgusting.
> These "basics" to which you refer in the above post are, in fact, the
> most important ingredients to any successful piece of prose fiction: use of
> the language and structure of the plot.
> But, then, if you'd been paying attention in class, you would have known
> that already.
>
>
Now, I HATE to intrude on such a well thought-out (though ill-documented)
rant.
I bow to your superior command of grammar, spelling and sentence structure.
I also HATE to inject *any* peaceful commentary. It goes against the grain.
However, maybe the hostility would lessen if POPULAR was substituted for
professional?
What works in Academia doesn't necessarly sell in the "real" world.
If you want to be published aren't there rules you must follow? A game you
must learn to play? As in any industry?
If you don't want to play this game, if you care deeply about integrity and
quality, then maybe becoming a best-selling author is not your path?
Pop-culture has little if ANYTHING to do with quality and/or talent.
What I glean from Ordover's comments :
1. Learn the Pro (popular)fic rules. Submit to legit professional magazines
and publishers.
2. Understand why you were rejected and work on those weaknesses.
3. Don't write fanfic in hopes to break into this world, just because you can
write trek fanfic doesn't make you qualified to write viacom blessed published
trek fiction.
4. Practice creating your own worlds. Learn how to plot etc with your own
characters. This is a skill not learned in fanfic.
5. Learn the rules of your profession. Seek advice from those in the field of
interest. Don't rely on amateur feedback.
Mr. Ordover, did you say "that education is somehow harmful" ?
I hope not. I *thought* I have been paying attention to this thread, this is
news to me.
I have seen so many overly emotional responses in this thread attributing all
manner of ulterior motives and inferring all types of slights that were never
actually voiced.
Folks, if you have actual PROOF (DEJANEWS PEOPLE, DEJANEWS!!! He hasn't
included the x-no-archive statement in his posts, ya know, the one that
irritates my buddy?) that the guy made these outlandish insults and claims,
INCLUDE the quotes in your posts.
Proof is the scientific way.
Otherwise this all reads like hysterical, baseless accusations by a mob that
is emotionally reacting to imagined slights.
Oh, btw, I can't stand those Trek books, those X-Files books, those Star War
books, etc. The Trek books used to be readable back in the early 80s, like
everything else in this world (UseNet in particular) the quality has declined
exponentially. However since I ain't the target audience, who CARES if I
think it blows? Somebody is buying it. I see 'em on the best seller list all
the time. I never saw that 15 years ago....
Punkie, who is afraid she is really losing her edge. Those mean pills are
wearing off. MUST GET MORE!!
The Woodwards
I'm sure that this note will bounce, given your propensity to hide
behind fake addresses, but I thought I'd take at least a few sentences to
let you know exactly how far away from any sort of point your post has
veered. I'll also be sure it's posted, just to let everyone else know
what's being said.
>Now, I HATE to intrude on such a well thought-out (though ill-documented)
>rant.
Lack of documentation would seem to be more YOUR problem than mine. The
burden of prima facie argument falls to the one making the accusations.
Now, Mr Ordover has made a number of unsupported statements without any more
backing than an attitude of, "Well, I said it, so it must be true." I, on
the other hand, have used examples to frequent and good effect. Please
refer to DejaNews for those posts in order to refresh your memory.
However, your apparent intention is more inflammation than education, so
I'll leave that where it stands.
>However, maybe the hostility would lessen if POPULAR was substituted for
>professional?
Hostility might lessen, but confusion would increase. If the word
"popular" was substituted for "professional," the statement in question
would read:
>>Add to this your philistine hostility to academia, shown time and again
>>when you split the hair of "[popular]" to exclude the academic.
This makes absolutely no sense at all. Please explain what you meant.
With examples.
>If you want to be published aren't there rules you must follow? A game you
>must learn to play? As in any industry?
I believe you'll find this point addressed in previous posts, as well.
Considering your desire for every post to be scrutinized and regurgitated in
some annotated form, I would have expected you to include an acknowledgment
of this, rather than simply asking questions that have already been
answered. What we're seeing displayed here is more devil's advocate
contradiction and not full-fledged argument.
To repeat a question of my own -- left unanswered, I may add, by
yourself -- I'd like to know what experience you speak from in order to
provide any corroboration for Mr Ordover's points, such as they are. Or are
these posts of yours exactly what they seem to be? That is to say,
provocative exercises in incitement that carry with them no gravity or
meaning.
>If you don't want to play this game, if you care deeply about integrity and
>quality, then maybe becoming a best-selling author is not your path?
This is exactly the sort of ignorant, anti-intellectual, anti-literary
attitude that is carried forth in Mr Ordover's posts. I might remind you
that "best-seller" and "trashy beach read" are most assuredly NOT the same
thing, by any stretch of the imagination. Rubbing elbows with the Clancys,
the Grishams and the Collinses are Pulitzer Prize winners, authors of
intense intellectualism and (yes, sometimes) deep ties to academia. Ernest
Hemingway was a best-selling author. Philip Roth, Tom Wolfe and on and on
and on. These are not authors tied to the "traditions" of pulpy trash
bestsellers.
I find it highly distressing that you willingly associate yourself with
this point of view. It's very obviously a limiting and ultimately, in terms
of the writing tradition, destructive ideal.
>Mr. Ordover, did you say "that education is somehow harmful" ?
>I hope not. I *thought* I have been paying attention to this thread, this
is
>news to me.
Apparently you weren't paying very close attention to the post you
responded to. I believe you'll find the appropriate lines (available
through DejaNews, if you'd like to check back) said:
>> Add to this your philistine hostility to academia, shown time and
again
>> when you split the hair of "professional" to exclude the academic. How
>> anyone could legitimately believe that education is somehow harmful and
>> still profess to be truly part of the literary world... the hypocrisy is
so
>> thick as to be disgusting.
Perhaps you simply misread and noticed that no quotes were attributed to
Mr Ordover. I'm sure your misappropriation of my words was accidental.
However, for someone who so enjoys touting their own thoroughness, that was
extremely inappropriate, not to mention sloppy.
Actively separating from consideration as legitimate what can be learned
in the classroom from what can be learned in the commercial realm is
blatantly anti-education. There are no other avenues of interpretation.
And by aligning yourself with this mode of thought, you are representing
yourself as anti-educator, anti-learning and, ultimately, anti-literature.
Therefore, if this is so, I begin to wonder how ANY point you make
surrounding the craft of writing can be seen as substantive, since you are
so openly hostile to the concept of the learned author.
The act of fiction-writing is wholly divorced from the realm of the
financial. Spurning the very SOURCE of literature and then taking the tone
that somehow this reductive reasoning is a service to those who simply
"don't get it" is ludicrous in the extreme, especially given the array of
much more reasoned and, might I say, educated arguments set against your
own.
>INCLUDE the quotes in your posts.
>Proof is the scientific way.
I agree absolutely. This why every point I have refuted of yours and Mr
Ordover's has been documented in one or another of my posts. Black
helicopters do not fly around my PC while I write, nor do I attribute shady
ulterior motives to Mr Ordover's posts. What he has said concerning the
craft of writing, and what you have adopted in your statements, is based
upon what appears to be an egregious deficit in your educations.
You very obviously know little to nothing about what fiction is, nor do
you have any appreciation for the method by which quality fiction takes its
form.
If you take the time to review DejaNews, you'll see the initial post,
entitled "The Ordover Files," made careful mention of the pros and cons
surrounding the writing of fanfiction. Also, no dispute was made of the
observation, variously repeated by others, that the bulk of fanfiction is
unreadable tripe. However, Mr Ordover's unrelenting opposition to all of
the fundamentals of quality fiction has forced me to iterate and reiterate
my arguments, all of which seem to fall on deaf ears.
As a side note, those reading may wonder at my constant mentioning of
DejaNews in this post. Mr/Ms Punkie has appealed to everyone who reads this
thread to read back through the archived posts thus far and I wholly agree
that one should do so. Careful reading will reveal how often the total
refutation of Mr Ordover's argument has been made, yet the thread continues.
>Oh, btw, I can't stand those Trek books, those X-Files books, those Star
War
>books, etc. However since I ain't the target audience, who CARES if I
>think it blows? Somebody is buying it. I see 'em on the best seller list
all
>the time. I never saw that 15 years ago....
So now apathy is the best approach to take to this subject? To borrow
every mother's favorite expression, "If EVERYONE jumped off a cliff, would
you do it, too?" This is too mean a concession to make, especially given
your support of Mr Ordover's seeming disinterest in quality fiction. Do you
care enough to post itemized lists of those things you learned from Mr
Ordover's posts (said itemized list available via DejaNews) -- going so far
as to accuse those who have not learned these same things as ignoring the
content of posts, being deluded, misquoting and so forth -- or do you not
care at all?
Hmm. It appears my "few sentences" have grown. We'll leave it at that,
then.
The Woodwards
>agreeing or even (gasp) defending punkie. However...
>
>The email I sent her made it through.
I don't wish to seem unfair, so I'll have to say that SO FAR the e-mail
copy of my response to Mr/Ms Punkie has not yet bounced. We'll see if that
continues throughout the night.
>>Please
>>refer to DejaNews for those posts in order to refresh your memory.
>
>This may get me flamed but I was taught those accusing have the burden of
>providing proof, not the other way around.
I'd like you to take another look at the note from which you're quoting.
One, I invited Mr/Ms Punkie to read back over the notes that had so far been
posted in order to refresh his/her memory concerning statements made during
the course of this thread. It's as simple as that. You will also note a
brief mention of prima facie arguments and the burden of proof. This may be
where you picked up this thought about accusations. However, I was not
MAKING any accusations and was merely indicating that certain statements had
been made in the past and could be easily referred to through the
oft-mentioned DejaNews archive.
I certainly don't wish this to seem like a flame, and I assure you it
isn't, but please read thoroughly before responding to any note, especially
when seeking to correct. Thanks.
>Replacing words in your sentence is not the issue nor is it her
>(or anyone's) responsibility to then make sure your sentence make sense.
>Replacing the concept professional fiction with popular fiction was the
>question raised.
I believe Mr/Ms Punkie said something concerning replacing the word
"professional" with the word "popular." That has everything to do with the
issue at hand. Substituting words in a quoted set of statements taken from
a prior post. As the sentence made complete sense beforehand and none after
the requested substitution had been made... .
Replacing CONCEPTS is perfectly acceptable, but let's discuss that in
the context of replacing concepts. In a post, written by Mr/Ms Punkie,
demanding accuracy in language, precision in statement and rigorous
application of logic, that would by extension certainly mean that his/her
sentences were to be taken as written. If this were not the case, then
certainly there wouldn't be the air of condenscention or the repeated
requests for ever-more-literal interpretations of posts, meanings and, now,
concepts.
>The point was exactly that. Why are you saying that Ordover has disdain
for
>academia if he hasn't expressed it straight out?
>This is a "baseless" accusation unless quotes are found to back it up.
>I read the whole thread (I have no life) and other than Ordover saying that
>professors aren't the ones to go to for advice on how to get published
>professionally I can't recall anything else.
Thank you for providing for yourself the proof you requested. When Mr
Ordover indicates that a "professional (non-academic)" audience is needed in
order to hone the skills of the writer, he is blatantly denying the role of
education. This, along with other statements which you doubtless read in
your perusal of Mr Ordover's posts, amount to nothing less than a refutation
of education and is, as such, anti-intellectual and anti-literary.
>IMHO in your disdain and anger for this person you are needlessly stooping
to
>her level and attacking for no reason.
I absolutely disagree with your perception of my post. During Mr/Ms
Punkie's short presence in this thread, he/she has been variously
described -- accurately, I feel -- as an inflammatory poster. In short: a
troll. This, in and of itself, is nothing that can't be utterly ignored as
it is on most groups, but when someone of this persuasion stoops, to use
your word, to attacking literature as well as spewing invective... that gets
under my skin. That hardly equates itself with "no reason."
>I don't agree with everything Ordover has said, I LOVE fanfic. I write
trek
>fanfic. Yet he makes sense.
Unfortunately I have DO have "disdain" for those who so flagrantly
display their ignorance of even basic literary theory, who fling criticism
at those attempting to hone their craft in their own way and, yes, those who
feel it's somehow commendable to take up the cause of those who would
seemingly say anything to denigrate what does not fit their narrow
conception of authorship, whether it makes logical sense or not.
And Mr Ordover does not make sense. If you haven't figured out exactly
what I mean by that, then please, please, PLEASE reread that thread you JUST
read and see that every statement he has made is narrowly-defined,
exclusionary and/or circular. These statements have been repeatedly, and
laboriously, refuted. While concession has yet to be made, Mr Ordover has
yet to mount any greater defense of his own assertions beyond simply
ASSERTING THEM AGAIN! He has not made sense up to this point because his
posts have been confused and poorly thought out, making any meaning you
might derive from them a conclusion drawn from yourself as opposed to Mr
Ordover's words.
JourneyToX
Ordover says to me:
>You aren't my target audience.
This is really quite interesting. What an assumption. and you do know the old
homily about ass-u-me?
OK, I don't read Trek fiction anymore. I just grew disinterested in the genre.
Some of it - Diane Duane, in particular - was so good I'll go back and read it
now years after I've left Trekdom.
But let's say for the point of argument, that Mr. Ordover, - presto!- no longer
does Trek books but works with the nice people at Harper Prism on X-Files
books.
Why am I not his target audience? What's bad about this demographic:
(1) doctorate degree (please, I'm not trying to impress anyone, I'm saying I
can handle challenging concepts - science, math, psychology, space/time travel
etc. - in a book)
(2) lots of disposable income and inclined to buy up all kinds of books and
stuff related to my favorite show, because, well, I can.
My hands are itching to buy X-Files books, Mr. Ordover. My checks clear at
Borders. Why am I not in your target audience? I feel like I'm being told my
money's not good enough. And YES, a thousand times yes, you can stay within
your guidelines and not develop the character's sex lives or strange
backgrounds or character deaths, etc. I accept those limitations in a
sanctioned media tie-in book. (The same way celebrate the lack of them in
fanfic) Tell me a good story and I'll pay your salary.
I really am anxious to know why I'm not in a target audience. It just doesn't
make sense.
---------------
Next point:
>If you want to be published you have to >understand what those authors
>are doing right. Let's assume for a minute >that your writing is a
>thousand times better than what is being >published. But your novel is
>being rejected. What is it you don't know?
>
Let's create this hypothetical and explore it for an answer:
(1) My only pro writing ambition at this time is to write a X-Files (or Trek,
potato, potahto) media tie-in novel. The show is of interest to me and I have a
bang up idea.
(2) Let's say that I have a story that fits within the strict guidelines quite
well, and manages to be an engaging story.
Why would I not be published?
May I turn your answer for everything back on you?
Target audience.
It wouldn't SELL because of a decision a marketing department profile computer
made, NOT because of its inherent lack of quality, NOR because I started as a
fanficker and didn't master the basics.
So, what's my choice? Find your target audience and submit something to you
that you think will fit it? Oh sure, I could do that.
Or I could keep scribbling away in the dark in fanfic - with no limitations,
with no recognition- and pay my bills some other way? I could do that too.
Either way I can have a good life. But evidently only the Mystical Target
Audience is what will get a check with Ordover's signature on it cut payable to
me. OK, I can accept that reality.
I can also accept the reality that a target audience and sales are not always
the greatest indicators of quality. Uh, "The Bridges of Madison County." Big
success. Literary doodoo.
We might find out more about this someday. If John provides us with a
definition of the target audience, we'll all be on the same page.
And as for any misinformation I received about the death of Trek fiction, I'm
sorry. If you're doing great, super duper. Let's hear it for the good economy.
I think it would be nice to have 'target audience' explained, since target
audience is both what is supposedly keeping books I'd like off the shelf and me
from being the author of those books.
*~*~*~*~*~*
Journ...@aol.com, BYFP, not BOFQ
MORE Skinner, Save Spender, Can Kersh, Flush Fowley.
"God Bless America! Now get your asses out of here!" 1939!Skinner, Triangle
"Oh yeahhhh!" Mitch Pileggi, Season 3 Gag Reels. :-)
~*~*~*~*~
Tashayar12
>I'm sure that this note will bounce, given your propensity to hide
I hate this. I really hate this. I don't want to be in the position of
agreeing or even (gasp) defending punkie. However...
The email I sent her made it through.
>Please
>refer to DejaNews for those posts in order to refresh your memory.
This may get me flamed but I was taught those accusing have the burden of
providing proof, not the other way around.
>>>Add to this your philistine hostility to academia, shown time and again
>>>when you split the hair of "[popular]" to exclude the academic.
>
> This makes absolutely no sense at all. Please explain what you meant.
WAIT. WAIT. Replacing words in your sentence is not the issue nor is it her
(or anyone's) responsibility to then make sure your sentence make sense.
Replacing the concept professional fiction with popular fiction was the
question raised.
Does that work with Ordover's arguments? I think it attachs less elitism to it.
That is just mho.
>
> Apparently you weren't paying very close attention to the post you
>responded to. I believe you'll find the appropriate lines (available
>through DejaNews, if you'd like to check back) said:
>
>>> Add to this your philistine hostility to academia, shown time and
>again
>>> when you split the hair of "professional" to exclude the academic. How
>>> anyone could legitimately believe that education is somehow harmful and
>>> still profess to be truly part of the literary world... the hypocrisy is
>so
>>> thick as to be disgusting.
>
> Perhaps you simply misread and noticed that no quotes were attributed to
>Mr Ordover. I'm sure your misappropriation of my words was
Ack!! Again, I hate being in this position. My mama always taught me to stick
up for what I thought was right. If I misread you or anyone else I am sorry.
The point was exactly that. Why are you saying that Ordover has disdain for
academia if he hasn't expressed it straight out?
This is a "baseless" accusation unless quotes are found to back it up.
I read the whole thread (I have no life) and other than Ordover saying that
professors aren't the ones to go to for advice on how to get published
professionally I can't recall anything else. I don't see that as disdain. I
see it as realism.
YMMV.
>However, for someone who so enjoys touting their own thoroughness, that was
>extremely inappropriate, not to mention sloppy.
I disagree. I understood the point and though I have seen other illustrations
of this persons lack of thouroughness, this was not one of those times.
IMHO in your disdain and anger for this person you are needlessly stooping to
her level and attacking for no reason.
I don't agree with everything Ordover has said, I LOVE fanfic. I write trek
fanfic. Yet he makes sense.
I hope never to be in this position again. Defending punkie, actually agreeing
and understanding her was a scary scary moment.
In fact I think I'll go play in the trek group until this whole nonsense dies
down.
I know, I know, I am just as culpable since I contributed.
(Punkie, a plea. Leave this be. I opened up myself to flames for the greater
good. I actually defended your comments because I agree with some of it and do
think that you were misunderstood on this issue. HOWEVER, knock it off. We
know you think we are silly foolish people who lack creativity. We also know
you like to toy with us. You have had your fun. Now end this. You will never
get back UseNet the way it was. Accept this and go back to your sci. groups
and your logic and let us wallow in emotionalism and play. Thank you)
yar......
Cpnk0
>Hola.
Howdy.
> I'm sure that this note will bounce, given your propensity to hide
Nope. I created a yahoo address just for moments like this. Yahoo. How
apropos....
> Lack of documentation would seem to be more YOUR problem than mine. The
>burden of prima facie argument falls to the one making the accusations.
We agree. You accuse, accuse and accuse yet after going back and reading this
thread and searching *for* you (because you are too inept to do your own
homework) I have found nothing that merits your *rude*, borderline libelous
attacks on Ordover.
Not that I care mind you. I am having toooo much fun. You write adoring
fanfic, I annoy. Sort of a symbiotic relationship don'cha think?
> However, your apparent intention is more inflammation than education, so
>I'll leave that where it stands.
Really? What EVER gave you that idea?
Works though. Like a charm. Eh?
> This makes absolutely no sense at all. Please explain what you meant.
>With examples.
No.
It's not my place to explain your idiotic sentences. I suggested replacing the
concept professional with popular. I didn't suggest literally doing a
"find/replace". You assume this task on your own.
>What we're seeing displayed here is more devil's advocate
>contradiction and not full-fledged argument.
So?
> I'd like to know what experience you speak from in order to
A little mystery in life is good. Keep on wondering.
Nice try though. My secret identity is still intact. Whew.
>That is to say,
>provocative exercises in incitement that carry with them no gravity or
>meaning.
NOOOOO!!!! Little Ol' me? You wound me with your suspicion.
>I find it highly distressing that you willingly associate yourself with
>this point of view. It's very
Thanks for the concern. I share your concern. OH Wait. We aren't talking
about this "newsgroup" are we?
Oooops. My mistake.
> Apparently you weren't paying very close attention to the post you
>responded to. I believe you'll find the appropriate lines (available
>through DejaNews, if you'd like to check back) said:
BWHAHAHA. Thinking is a struggle for you isn't it?
You are correct, I asked Ordover if he made comments about academia using your
words.
You claim he feels this way, so I figured he must have used words similar to
what you attribute his feelings to be.
Otherwise how do you know?
Oh wait. Are you his lover? Did I inadvertenly get involved in a domestic
quarrel. Ooops. Sorry again...
>However, for someone who so enjoys touting their own thoroughness, that was
>extremely inappropriate, not to mention sloppy.
Sometimes I am. This isn't one of those times pumpkin.
>And by aligning yourself with this mode of thought, you are representing
>yourself as anti-educator, anti-learning and, ultimately, anti-literature.
YIKES. Boy am I EVIL.
You wouldn't be slightly over-reacting, would you?
Nooo.
I must be misreading this as defensive, insecure posturing on your part.
>
> Hmm. It appears my "few sentences" have grown. We'll leave it at that,
>then.
>
Time for your prozac is it?
Best of luck. I have every faith you will get better!! The drugs these days
are quite effective.
Now wipe that drool off and settle back with the yellow pills, NO NOT THE BLUE
ONES, THE YELLOW ONES!!! That's a girl.
punkie, who didn't mean to bring out the loons!! Okay, just a little. Thanks
for contributing to my show.
PS : To yar. GET A GRIP.
Willrosss
>Thanks
>for contributing to my show.
>
>PS : To yar. GET A GRIP.
>
>
Loons?!!! Speak for yourself ... Sybil!! Oh wait, I guess you did ... or was
that * to* yourself?
pot calling the kettle calling the pot calling the kettle calling....
John Ordover
>>I'm sorry, but HOW is it intruding on -anyone's- fun to post "If you
>>want to be a pro author you have to do something else?" If you
>>-don't- want to, what's the big deal? Especially since there's
>>certainly no rule you have to read -any- post that isn't relevent to
>>you?
>
>It's an XF fanfic writers' ng; you're posting *about* XF fanfic writers &
>writing. Maybe if you'd tried using a subject along the lines of "If you want
>to write pro fiction" rather than the (deliberately?) inflammatory ones you've
>chosen, this pretense at innocence would hold water. Instead you make snarky,
>insulting little posts that don't answer the questions asked. (Are you having
>trouble recognizing the questions? Maybe instead of a ?, if a person put
><request for response> at the end it would be easier for you?) Maybe the whole
>thing is that people feel that if they're going to be insulted (which you have
>done in tone if not in words) they'd rather it not be behind their backs.
>
Uh -- I didn't -start- any of the discussion here, people on the
newsgroup did after the EW article came out.
>>Instead, I've been repeatedly attacked for saying things I've never
>>said, and for holding opinions I've never stated. Once again, for the record,
>>let me state where I stand:
>
>These are bad things that have happened to you--so, since you've made your
>point (*repeatedly*), why do you keep posting here<request for response>
>
>>1) If you want to be a pro writer, writing fan fiction is not the way
>>to achive that.
>
>It's not the final step; it can be a valuable early step, as other people have
>stated.
There are other, better early steps.
>
>>2) If you don't want to a pro writer, have fun (and there's really no
>>reason to bother reading my posts about how to become a pro writer)
>
>Except to find out what pot-shots are being taken at us.
So what you're saying is, you come to a thread where you expect to
find pot-shots being taken at you, and -even though you don't-, since
I haven't said a single thing against fan fiction, you complain that
1) I am and 2) you are being intruded on?
>
>>Because of the above, nothing that follows has ANY relevence to
>>someone who -doesn't- want to be a pro author. If
>> DOES want to do that, the only audience that matters is a
>>professional one, since it will be professionals deciding whether or
>>not to pay you for your story.
>
><analogy snipped>
>
>This is such a sad commentary on pro writing, it makes me exceedingly glad I
>have my menial, low-paying, get-it-out-fast,-not-good job to support myself
>while I soar in my writing. I would hate for it to be the other way around.
Then why are you reading my posts?
>
>>You seem to be upset that I'm making a bunch of posts that aren't
>>relevent to you or to someone who isn't interested in being a pro
>>author. To which I reply, so what? Someone who isn't interested will
>>just stop reading the posts. Those few that really want to know what
>>to do to turn pro (and I've heard from at least half a dozen so far,
>>over and above those brave enough to post here) can stay tuned, others
>>can just tune out. What's the big deal?
>
>It's not relevancy, it's tone & attitude. You can't go around sneering at
>things people put their hearts and souls into & expect them not to be upset.
>Is that really so hard to understand<request for response>
I have NEVER sneered at fan fiction. Find a -single post- where I
have. All I have EVER said is that it's not the path to a pro writing
career.
John Ordover
>
>
>> Add to this your philistine hostility to academia, shown time and again
>> when you split the hair of "professional" to exclude the academic. How
>> anyone could legitimately believe that education is somehow harmful and
>> still profess to be truly part of the literary world... the hypocrisy is so
>> thick as to be disgusting.
>> These "basics" to which you refer in the above post are, in fact, the
>> most important ingredients to any successful piece of prose fiction: use of
>> the language and structure of the plot.
>> But, then, if you'd been paying attention in class, you would have known
>> that already.
>>
>>
>
>Now, I HATE to intrude on such a well thought-out (though ill-documented)
>rant.
>
>I bow to your superior command of grammar, spelling and sentence structure.
>
>I also HATE to inject *any* peaceful commentary. It goes against the grain.
>
>However, maybe the hostility would lessen if POPULAR was substituted for
>professional?
>
>What works in Academia doesn't necessarly sell in the "real" world.
>
>If you want to be published aren't there rules you must follow? A game you
>must learn to play? As in any industry?
>
>If you don't want to play this game, if you care deeply about integrity and
>quality, then maybe becoming a best-selling author is not your path?
>
>Pop-culture has little if ANYTHING to do with quality and/or talent.
>
>What I glean from Ordover's comments :
>
>1. Learn the Pro (popular)fic rules. Submit to legit professional magazines
>and publishers.
>
>2. Understand why you were rejected and work on those weaknesses.
>
>3. Don't write fanfic in hopes to break into this world, just because you can
>write trek fanfic doesn't make you qualified to write viacom blessed published
>trek fiction.
>
>4. Practice creating your own worlds. Learn how to plot etc with your own
>characters. This is a skill not learned in fanfic.
>
>5. Learn the rules of your profession. Seek advice from those in the field of
>interest. Don't rely on amateur feedback.
>
>Mr. Ordover, did you say "that education is somehow harmful" ?
No, what I said is that unpublished academics who speak as if they
know about how to be a pro writer, and what's needed to be a pro
writer, can do untold damage to someone who wants a pro writing
career. They can, I've seen it happen more than once. The only
people who really know what it takes to get a pro writer career are
pro editors and writers -- the gatekeepers and those who've made it
through the gate. Like I keep saying, if you wanted to be a musician,
you'd want to study with a pro; if you wanted to be a golfer, you'd
study with a pro; if you want to be a painter
, study with a pro. The notion that writing is somehow different from
those other arts is wrong.
>
>I hope not. I *thought* I have been paying attention to this thread, this is
>news to me.
>
>I have seen so many overly emotional responses in this thread attributing all
>manner of ulterior motives and inferring all types of slights that were never
>actually voiced.
>
>Folks, if you have actual PROOF (DEJANEWS PEOPLE, DEJANEWS!!! He hasn't
>included the x-no-archive statement in his posts, ya know, the one that
>irritates my buddy?) that the guy made these outlandish insults and claims,
>INCLUDE the quotes in your posts.
>
>Proof is the scientific way.
>
>Otherwise this all reads like hysterical, baseless accusations by a mob that
>is emotionally reacting to imagined slights.
>
>Oh, btw, I can't stand those Trek books, those X-Files books, those Star War
>books, etc. The Trek books used to be readable back in the early 80s, like
>everything else in this world (UseNet in particular) the quality has declined
>exponentially. However since I ain't the target audience, who CARES if I
>think it blows? Somebody is buying it. I see 'em on the best seller list all
>the time. I never saw that 15 years ago....
>