Torture in TOS?
ToolPackinMama
in torture?
SLWatson
> OK, Kirk et all were tortured many times, but when did they ever engage
> in torture?
Never that I saw. Unless I'm missing something somewhere.
GeneK
"ToolPackinMama" <philn...@comcast.net> wrote...
> OK, Kirk et all were tortured many times, but when did they ever engage
> in torture?
When they made Star Trek V. We were the victims.
GeneK
SLWatson
> "ToolPackinMama" <philnbl...@comcast.net> wrote...
> > OK, Kirk et all were tortured many times, but when did they ever engage
> > in torture?
>
> When they made Star Trek V. We were the victims.
>
> GeneK
For the win!
ToolPackinMama
LOL! ;)
But seriously...
When (if ever) did Kirk use torture to achieve something?
It's OK to refer to the TOS crew movies.
ToolPackinMama
I can't think of any cases, but I might have missed something.
Kweeg
news:u-6dnUiOufmd8fHV...@comcast.com...
There wasn't any torture perpetrated by "Kirk et all." Just TMP trying to
stir things up, she probably has "proof" it did though. Just like Kirk and
Spock never slept together, but she has proof** for that.
(**proof only being her bigoted narrow-minded beliefs that men can't love
each other without being lovers)
--
Qapla'
Kweeg
Ten of Canadian Clubs in the Eeeevil Trek Cabal
"Half a gallon a'scotch!" Scotty (Spectre of the Gun)
1,079,252,848.8 km/h, not just a good idea, it's the law.
"So say we all!"
GeneK
> But seriously...
>
> When (if ever) did Kirk use torture to achieve something?
>
> It's OK to refer to the TOS crew movies.
Offhand, the only thing I can think of is what they did
to Harry Mudd at the end of "I, Mudd." Not sure what
they might have been trying to "achieve" from that,
except getting a few yuks at Harry's expense.
GeneK
ToolPackinMama
> "ToolPackinMama" <philn...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:u-6dnUiOufmd8fHV...@comcast.com...
>> SLWatson wrote:
>>> On Jul 2, 11:34 pm, ToolPackinMama <philnbl...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>> OK, Kirk et all were tortured many times, but when did they ever engage
>>>> in torture?
>>> Never that I saw. Unless I'm missing something somewhere.
>> I can't think of any cases, but I might have missed something.
>
> There wasn't any torture perpetrated by "Kirk et all." Just TMP trying to
> stir things up, she probably has "proof" it did though. Just like Kirk and
> Spock never slept together, but she has proof** for that.
Wassamatta, can't I introduce a topic that isn't about K/S without you
getting all upset?
Gee, maybe the one who is really K/S obsessed is you.
ToolPackinMama
Hmm. Actually, that is a good example.
What about giving Khan his own planet to rule? Sure it seemed like a
good deal to him,and he consented - but Jim knew better than him how
lonely it gets way out in space when you have no friends....
Ragnar
> OK, Kirk et all were tortured many times, but when did they ever engage
> in torture?
Mirror, Mirror. The agony booth.
Spock's Brain. The whole episode.
Magnus, Robot Fighter
Spock mind-rapes Kim Catrall in ST:6
Couple of times in the series I believe they threatened to use the
Meld. Didn't someone kill themselves to avoid it?
WickeddollŽ
"SLWatson"
in torture?
>
> Never that I saw. Unless I'm missing something somewhere.
We were just discussing how tortured we were by "Plato's Stepchildren"
Natalie
WickeddollŽ
No way!
That was hilarious.
Natalie
ToolPackinMama
> ToolPackinMama wrote:
>> OK, Kirk et all were tortured many times, but when did they ever
>> engage in torture?
>
>
> Mirror, Mirror. The agony booth.
OK, but that was the mirror universe....
>
> Spock's Brain. The whole episode.
Hmm. I don't quite follow you there.
ToolPackinMama
Kirk and company were tortured in that one. That wasn't the question.
There are lots of episodes with them being tortured.
Us being tortured by a horrible story doesn't count. Kirk is not to
blame for a bad script.
GeneK
> Hmm. Actually, that is a good example.
>
> What about giving Khan his own planet to rule? Sure it seemed like a
> good deal to him,and he consented - but Jim knew better than him how
> lonely it gets way out in space when you have no friends....
Khan had lots of friends with him at the time.
And what amounted to an adoring, groveling
sub. Maybe, if Kirk had known all along that
the neighboring planet was unstable...
GeneK
Spark...@gmail.com
> OK, Kirk et all were tortured many times, but when did they ever engage
> in torture?
Not very harshly.
In Shore Leave, Kirk tried to extract information from Finnegan by
beating him up.
In By Any Other Name, Kirk puts Rojan into an armlock and persuades
him to commit peace. McCoy gave Hanar a drug designed specifically to
make him feel uncomfortable.
In Trouble With Tribbles, Kirk "tortures" a klingon by shoving a
tribble in his face until he confesses.
In Court Martial, Kirk obtains valuable ship-saving information from
Finney by beating him up and then informing him that his daughter was
on board.
These are all examples of mild torture. (My memory may be faulty in
one or two of these cases. Age does that.)
Benjamin Pavsner
the mirror Chekov is in the agony chamber (or whatever it's called) with
Kirk WATCHING, but...news:q5CdnaekUL4-1fHV...@comcast.com...
Wouter Valentijn
I think those are indeed very mild...
The best example might be 'Star Trek VI'. Spock forcing a mind meld on
Valeris.
www.nksf.scifics.com/nksfseries.html
liam=mail
redhawk
The worst I remember was in "The Cloud Minders." Kirk forced the aged
Cloud City leader Plasus to dig for Zenite with his bare hands,
breathing in the gas that makes people act primitive and violent.
Kirk was under the effect of the gas himself at the time, which no
doubt explains why he subjected the poor man to hard physical labor
under such grueling conditions.
Ragnar
Umm, that episode was soooooo bad that sitting thru it was torture.
WickeddollŽ
OK, I still say there were much worse ones. Plato's Stepchildren in #1,
followed by For The World Is Hollow, And I Have Touched The Sky, Miri, Who
Mourns For Adonis?, The Way To Eden, Gamesters Of Triskelion, and... *drum
roll* Bread & Circuses
I'll take Spock's Brain any day, instead of those stinkers.
Natalie
Kweeg
news:g4j20r...@news.evilcabal.org...
Over The Way to Eden?
Herbert!
Karl Johanson
> OK, Kirk et all were tortured many times, but when did they ever engage in
> torture?
Kirk gave the okay to have Mirror Mirror Checkov tortured.
Karl Johanson
ToolPackinMama
> Umm, that episode was soooooo bad that sitting thru it was torture.
Yeah, well, that sort of example is not what we are looking for in this
inquiry.
ToolPackinMama
> OK, I still say there were much worse ones. Plato's Stepchildren in #1,
> followed by For The World Is Hollow, And I Have Touched The Sky, Miri, Who
> Mourns For Adonis?, The Way To Eden, Gamesters Of Triskelion, and... *drum
> roll* Bread & Circuses
>
> I'll take Spock's Brain any day, instead of those stinkers.
Again, the question was ~not~ "which episodes don't you like?"
ToolPackinMama
He didn't actually know what "the booth" was at the time. He was
playing along - playing the part of Mirror Kirk.
SLWatson
pretty brutal.
Wouter Valentijn
> On Wed, 02 Jul 2008 23:34:15 -0400, ToolPackinMama
> <philn...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> OK, Kirk et all were tortured many times, but when did they ever
>> engage in torture?
>
> Spock mind-rapes Kim Catrall in ST:6
I mentioned Valeris yes.
>
> Couple of times in the series I believe they threatened to use the
> Meld. Didn't someone kill themselves to avoid it?
Maybe you mean that bodyguard... The one that betrayed Elaan.
www.nksf.scifics.com/nksfseries.html
liam=mail
Ragnar
You should have laid out those conditions in the OP.
Quadibloc
> OK, Kirk et all were tortured many times, but when did they ever engage
> in torture?
How should I reply to this?
Something to the effect that Gene Roddenbery was, unlike our glorious
G. W. Bush, a wimpy bleeding-heart leftist?
Star Trek presented a positive vision of man's future, and while there
were many differences between Gene Roddenbery on one side, and NBC's
Broadcast Standards department on the other, both would agree that
representatives of Earth or the United States in space would behave
according to American values.
Aside from the odd simplification that is typical of TV dramas; thus,
one never sees Kirk giving a Miranda warning to a Klingon, or
notifying the Red Cross that he has taken one prisoner and so on.
Star Trek was never intended to be, say, 24, so it wasn't a gritty
drama where Kirk had to worry about, say, a whole planet getting blown
up if he didn't get information out of someone any way he could; it
didn't come to that. But that fact doesn't seem, to me, to reflect on
the pros or cons of Guantanamo in any meaningful way.
My own right-wing view is that Guantanamo is regrettable - but one of
the causes of it is a legal system too apt to release dangerous
criminals on technicalities. So rather than a simplistic answer that
seems moral, but leads to the unacceptable consequence of perhaps
turning terrorists loose, I think we should fix the legal system, draw
distinctions between what the essential rights of the accused are, and
the extent to which they have been expanded to excess in recent years,
and then even terrorists could be handled, in an appropriate way,
within the framework of the normal legal system.
John Savard
Quadibloc
> But seriously...
>
> When (if ever) did Kirk use torture to achieve something?
>
> It's OK to refer to the TOS crew movies.
If mind-rape counts, I suppose I could cite Star Trek VI.
John Savard
ToolPackinMama
I did
ToolPackinMama
> I'd say the mind meld in VI. I hadn't thought of it, but that was
> pretty brutal.
So it seemed, but why would it be? It was established in TOS that,
during a mind meld, the two minds/experiences dissolve into one. If it
"hurt" Valeris in any way, wouldn't Spock be equally hurt?
ToolPackinMama
>
> My own right-wing view is that Guantanamo is regrettable - but one of
> the causes of it is a legal system too apt to release dangerous
> criminals on technicalities. So rather than a simplistic answer that
> seems moral, but leads to the unacceptable consequence of perhaps
> turning terrorists loose, I think we should fix the legal system, draw
> distinctions between what the essential rights of the accused are, and
> the extent to which they have been expanded to excess in recent years,
> and then even terrorists could be handled, in an appropriate way,
> within the framework of the normal legal system.
Hmm.
So, can you name examples of Kirk et al relying on torture to achieve
aims? Others here actually have pointed out some examples. Perhaps if
pressed you might find one or two.
ToolPackinMama
It was established in TOS that, during a mind meld, the two
SLWatson
the nature of telepathy, mental shielding, I think forcibly breeching
those would probably hurt. And whether it hurts Spock or not is
irrelevant; he uses force. If a rapist bangs his knee while trying to
put it to you, does that make it okay?
...that's likely a flame-worthy comment, but hey.
ToolPackinMama
What reason do we have to believe that Valeris was "tortured"? Because
she shed tears during the experience? I cry at the ballet. Does that
make the ballet "torture"?
Maybe what Valeris experienced during the "mind rape" was simply so
beautiful that she was emotionally overcome. We actually don't know what
the "mind rape" experience was like for the two people who were actually
involved.
All we really know for certain is that Spock somehow got the info he
wanted in the process.
She was a murderous traitor... but nobody in Star Trek said that THAT
meant she had no rights.
She and Spock had an established relationship. No doubt he used the
intimacy already established to unlock her secrets.
ToolPackinMama
Well, I think of it as a debate-worthy opinion.
First of all, the actions of Mirror Spock should not reflect on our
Spock. IMHO.
ToolPackinMama
> I dunno, Len McCoy didn't seem to enjoy it in Mirror, Mirror. Given
> the nature of telepathy, mental shielding, I think forcibly breeching
> those would probably hurt. And whether it hurts Spock or not is
> irrelevant; he uses force. If a rapist bangs his knee while trying to
> put it to you, does that make it okay?
You know, Captain Kirk did not see Mirror Spock the way you seem to.
Captain Kirk seemed to think that Mirror Spock was as innately decent as
his own Spock is.
Kirk encouraged Mirror Spock at the end to wrest control from the
clearly indecent Mirror Kirk. Why would he do that, if he didn't
believe, deep down, that Mirror Spock was the better man?
We the audience were given reason to believe that Mirror Spock was
actually a big softy. Kirk saw that, and encouraged it.
ToolPackinMama
I feel constrained to add that McCoy in no way ever seemed traumatized
by his Mirror Mirror "mind rape". The effect of the encounter was that
Mirror Spock became an ally.
ToolPackinMama
1) Kirk abandons his kidnapper Harry Mudd to innumerable android
replicas of his nagging wife [I, Mudd]
2) Kirk brandishes a screeching, poisonous, multi-fanged TRIBBLE in a
flinching Klingon spy's face [Trouble with Tribbles]
3) Kirk at one point strongarms his kidnapper, the Kelvin leader [By Any
Other Name]
4) Kirk gets into a big fistfight with android "Finnegan" in an effort
to obtain information [Shore Leave]
5) Kirk gets very physical with his old best friend Ben Finney, after
Ben has tried to ruin Kirk's career and life with a false charge of murder.
Again, I will not consider the acts of Mirror Kirk or Mirror Spock,
since they are NOT ~our~ Kirk and Spock. True, torture is commonplace
in the mirror universe, but this is not an inquiry into the morality of
the mirror universe Captain and crew.
OK, I am going to just jump in and speak to the above examples:
1) Hey Mudd is the one who married the bitch. If he doesn't like her,
he has a funny way of showing it. He's the one who created the
prototype replica of her in the first place. All Kirk did was order up
some duplicates.
2) Oh! Ooo! Ow! A TRIBBLE! He waved a TRIBBLE at a Klingon! Oh! Ooo!
Ow! The BIG MEANIE.
3) OK, the guy kidnaps Kirk and his whole crew, reduces most of them to
wafers, kills at least one of them, threatens all their lives, threatens
the whole human race, threatens the whole galaxy, holds all the cards
and has all the power through the whole episode, and Kirk TOTALLY
disrespects him, once. Shame on Kirk. He should have totally sucked up
to his supreme master without fail... instead... I guess.
4) I don't see how fighting an android who never feels any real pain and
who caused Kirk real pain in the process counts as Kirk "torturing"
somebody else.
5) Look, Ben and Jim used to be "friends". Let's just say they had a
messy break-up. Does having a messy, emotional, sordid break-up make
you a torturer? I don't think so. I think what went on there was between
them, you know?
Quadibloc
> She was a murderous traitor... but nobody in Star Trek said that THAT
> meant she had no rights.
Precisely. But I think it was clear that what happened was that, since
she chose continued defiance, Spock resorted to what she did not
expect; wresting what was required from her mind through a forcible
psychic attack.
Spock was visibly shaken after this, so it is clear that sort of thing
is a serious breach of the normal ethics concerning the mental
abilities of Vulcans - not the sort of thing that would be done in a
normal criminal investigation. But he wasn't trying to obtain
admissible evidence, he was trrying to save lives in an emergency.
No, they didn't say she had no rights. But she was referred to as
having chosen to make harsh treatment necessary.
Unlike actual rape, what Spock did was justified by the circumstances;
my wrath lies upon the writers or re-writers, as women who are
survivors of sexual assault are... represented in Star Trek fandom.
Gratuitously making a movie disturbing to a significant proportion of
its likely audience is a poor decision.
Ragnar
You most certainly did not.
Your original post in its entirety:
SLWatson
ally in Mirror, Mirror; when he was dragged into the transporter room,
with glazed eyes, IIRC... Scotty was actually keeping a grip on him to
either steady him or keep him standing. As to whether there were any
lasting effects -- you and I both know that TOS was written primarily
with stand-alone episodes and not running storylines, so of course it
was never brought up again.
Someone else validly pointed out that Spock seemed shaken by what he
had done to Valeris. And certainly not, "Such a beautiful
experience!" I mean, I know you wear your tinted shades still, but
let's not dive ourselves into any stupid here -- can debate it all
day, but the fact remains: What Spock did could be called torture.
Karl Johanson
> 4) I don't see how fighting an android who never feels any real pain and
> who caused Kirk real pain in the process counts as Kirk "torturing"
> somebody else.
How do you know the droid doesn't feel pain?
Karl Johanson
ToolPackinMama
> On Jul 4, 11:45 pm, ToolPackinMama <philnbl...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> She was a murderous traitor... but nobody in Star Trek said that THAT
>> meant she had no rights.
>
> Precisely. But I think it was clear that what happened was that, since
> she chose continued defiance, Spock resorted to what she did not
> expect; wresting what was required from her mind through a forcible
> psychic attack.
>
> Spock was visibly shaken after this, so it is clear that sort of thing
> is a serious breach of the normal ethics concerning the mental
> abilities of Vulcans
Oh? Did anybody in the TOS universe ever describe the mind meld as a
"violation" of anything?
That Spock seemed shaken after his mind meld with Valeris was not
abnormal. Spock always found mind-melding to be a deeply effecting
experience. The reason for that is that it is a deeply intimate experience.
Look, the mind meld was first performed in Dagger Of The Mind.
Check out this dialog:
SPOCK: (voiceover) Enterprise log.... First officer Spock, acting
captain. I must now use an ancient Vulcan technique to probe into Van
Gelder's tortured mind.
McCoy: Spock, if there's the slightest possibility it might help...
Spock: I've never used it on a human, Doctor.
McCoy: If there's any way we can look into this man's mind
to see if what he's seeing is real or delusion...
Spock: It's a hidden, personal thing to the Vulcan people, part of our
private lives.
McCoy: Now look, Spock, Jim Kirk could be in real trouble. Will it work
or not?
Spock (to Van Gelder): It could be dangerous. Do you understand? It
requires I make pressure changes...in your nerves, your blood vessels.
Van Gelder: You must open my mind.
Spock: Let me warn you and explain to you. This will not affect you, Dr.
McCoy, only the person I touch. It is not hypnosis.
McCoy: I understand.
[Spock touches Van Gelder]
Spock (to Van Gelder) You'll begin to feel a strange euphoria.
Your body...floats.
Van Gelder: Yes. I begin to feel it.
Spock: Open your mind....We move together. Our minds sharing the same
thoughts.
[Etc]
====
Yeah, that sounds bloody awful.
>not the sort of thing that would be done in a normal criminal
>investigation.
Look the first time the Mind Meld was ever used WAS in a criminal
investigation, so basically, you are wrong - as far as I can tell- on
all points.
ToolPackinMama
Yes? In the English language "engage in torture" means to be
responsible for performing torture. Kirk is not responsible for what
the writers do. If you didn't like an episode, because you hated the
story or the dialog, that is not an example of Kirk deliberately
torturing anyone.
You not liking an episode because you didn't like the story is not an
example of Kirk deliberately engaging in torture. Kirk is not
deliberately engaging in torturing you, a member of the audience. As
far as Kirk is concerned, the audience doesn't exist.
ToolPackinMama
> Wow, I must've gotten your goat. One: McCoy didn't become Spock's
> ally in Mirror, Mirror
I didn't say he did. I said Mirror Spock became their ally.
>
> Someone else validly pointed out that Spock seemed shaken by what he
> had done to Valeris.
Spock always seems a little shook up after a mind meld. That is not
unusual.
ToolPackinMama
I don't think of a fist fight that the android fully consented to and
happily participated in as "torture" by any measure, pain or not. It
was fully mutually consented to.
It was not a case of the android being tortured while Kirk had all the
power and the android was helpless and very unhappy. Quite the contrary.
Finnegan invited the fight. He also struck the first blow.
After he and Kirk had exhausted themselves, the two agreed that they had
gotten something positive from the encounter, so it wasn't all one sided
either. They were equally matched: it wasn't like Kirk was bullying a
much weaker opponent.
That is not torture. Plain and simple.
SLWatson
> SLWatson wrote:
> > Wow, I must've gotten your goat. One: McCoy didn't become Spock's
> > ally in Mirror, Mirror
>
> I didn't say he did. I said Mirror Spock became their ally.
And?
> Spock always seems a little shook up after a mind meld. That is not
> unusual.
And?
You're grasping straws. McCoy was messed up after that in Mirror,
Mirror at least for awhile. Valeris was screaming. You can argue
till you're blue in the face, but the logical conclusion in both of
these cases is that, while mind-melds that are wholly consenting are
likely perfectly fine, ones done under force are probably quite
unpleasant and akin to rape.
And, I am going to bow out now; debate is one thing, but debating
brick walls just leaves the person trying looking foolish.
ToolPackinMama
> On Jul 5, 2:17 pm, ToolPackinMama <philnbl...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> SLWatson wrote:
>>> Wow, I must've gotten your goat. One: McCoy didn't become Spock's
>>> ally in Mirror, Mirror
>> I didn't say he did. I said Mirror Spock became their ally.
>
> And?
And... those two things are totally different? And I didn't say what I
didn't say, I only said what I did say?
>
>> Spock always seems a little shook up after a mind meld. That is not
>> unusual.
>
> And?
>
> You're grasping straws
::shrug:: Sez you. I say I am not. I say I am stating some clear,
readily verifiable facts. Stating facts is not "grasping straws".
Ragnar
> Kirk is not responsible for what
> the writers do.
Yet he IS responsible for the overacting.
WickeddollŽ
> ToolPackinMama wrote:
>> Kirk is not responsible for what the writers do.
>
> Yet he IS responsible for the overacting.
nah, that's Shatner...
Natalie
Steven L.
> On Jul 2, 9:34 pm, ToolPackinMama <philnbl...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> OK, Kirk et all were tortured many times, but when did they ever engage
>> in torture?
>
> How should I reply to this?
>
> Something to the effect that Gene Roddenbery was, unlike our glorious
> G. W. Bush, a wimpy bleeding-heart leftist?
>
> Star Trek presented a positive vision of man's future, and while there
> were many differences between Gene Roddenbery on one side, and NBC's
> Broadcast Standards department on the other, both would agree that
> representatives of Earth or the United States in space would behave
> according to American values.
>
> Aside from the odd simplification that is typical of TV dramas; thus,
> one never sees Kirk giving a Miranda warning to a Klingon, or
> notifying the Red Cross that he has taken one prisoner and so on.
>
> Star Trek was never intended to be, say, 24, so it wasn't a gritty
> drama where Kirk had to worry about, say, a whole planet getting blown
> up if he didn't get information out of someone any way he could; it
> didn't come to that. But that fact doesn't seem, to me, to reflect on
> the pros or cons of Guantanamo in any meaningful way.
As others have already pointed out, in "The Cloud Minders," when a
member planet of the Federation (Ardana) tried to extract information
from a rebel via torture, Kirk intervened to stop it. Evidently it's
against the charter of the Federation for a member planet to use torture.
Of course, in the Trek era, they can use the Vulcan mind-meld to
interrogate anybody, without the need for physical torture.
--
Steven L.
Email: sdli...@earthlinkNOSPAM.net
Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.
George Peatty
wrote:
>Of course, in the Trek era, they can use the Vulcan mind-meld to
>interrogate anybody, without the need for physical torture.
All Trek consistently shows that the meld, when resisted, induces pain and
psychic distress ..
Quadibloc
> Look the first time the Mind Meld was ever used WAS in a criminal
> investigation, so basically, you are wrong - as far as I can tell- on
> all points.
When I said "that sort of thing", I did not mean the mind meld _per
se_, and I think you should have been able to realize that perfectly
well. In addition to the mind meld, there are other related forms of
mental contact.
For example, in "A Taste of Armageddon", Spock mentally influences a
guard to open the force-field to the entrance of a room in which he
and other Enterprise crew members are held prisoner.
In the case of Valeris, the dialogue was clear. Valeris is smugly
refusing to answer a question put to her, thinking she would stymie
Kirk and company. Instead, she had made a choice - but not the kind
she expected.
Against her will, and against her best resistance, Spock broke down
the barriers in her mind, and obtained a negative answer to his query.
Spock was visibly shaken at what he had done, however much the urgency
of the circumstances might have justified it, and his voice was
haunted as he gave the answer to Kirk.
The impression, therefore, that was intended by the film-maker for the
audience to obtain from that series of events is clear and obvious:
Spock had used his mental abilities in a way that would normally be
considered heinous, and he did use them upon Valeris in a way contrary
to her expressed wishes, to her will, and to her fierce resistance.
I don't know why you wish to claim that you can use "facts" to argue
against what we have witnessed, what we have seen and heard before us.
John Savard
Anim8rFSK
Ragnar <rwo...@comsouth.net> wrote:
No, he's not. The producers and directors are.
--
Star Trek 09:
No Shat, No Show.
redhawk
I actually thought "Cloud Minders" was the best example of Kirk
arguably using torture. Near the end of the episode, Kirk orders the
Stratos leader Plasus beamed down into the zenite mine, trapped with
Kirk and the rebel Vanna. What follows clearly is unpleasant and
nonconsensual for Plasus and Vanna:
Plasus: Abduction of a planet official is a serious crime.
You will pay for this, I promise you!
Kirk: Not until you're convinced of the effects of the zenite gas, Mr.
Advisor.
Plasus: Effects? I've been here an hour of your Earth time, you and
Vanna even longer!
I see no changes in any of us!
Kirk: Perhaps you need closer exposure. Fill that container!
Plasus: Are you suggesting that I dig zenite?
Kirk: I insist!
Plasus: You will indeed pay for this!
Kirk: You too, Vanna.
You too! Dig! [forces them to start digging]
[call from Enterprise, Kirk angrily cuts them off]
[ Vanna] I grow faint.
[ Panting ] The oxygen is going.
Plasus: She's right. Kirk, transport us out of here.
Kirk: We'll leave when the gas has effect.
Plasus: It will never take effect. Transport us out of here!
Kirk: Dig!
Plasus: Imbecile! We'll die!
Kirk: I said dig!
Plasus: I am high advisor of all the planet.
I will take no more orders!
Kirk: One more step and I'll kill you. [phaser aimed at Plasus]
Vanna: The gas!
Captain, you were right. It's taking effect! You were right!
Plasus: Are you as brave with mortae as you are with a phaser?
Kirk: Both will kill. [begin duel to the death with mortae mining
implements.]
I don't know if that's torture, but it was far worse than Kirk at
normal times.
ToolPackinMama
:)
KIRK does not "over-act". Kirk just is. Shatner the actor might be
accused of "over-acting", but Kirk is not an actor. He just ~is~.
ToolPackinMama
It's a sad person who can not see the distinction between the actor, and
the fictional character he portrays.
BTW, FWIW, back then, that was called ACTING, not "overacting".
Modern "actors" just recite their lines. Back then, actors actually
acted. It was the NORM (at that time), not the exception.
ToolPackinMama
> As others have already pointed out, in "The Cloud Minders," when a
> member planet of the Federation (Ardana) tried to extract information
> from a rebel via torture, Kirk intervened to stop it.
True.
> Evidently it's
> against the charter of the Federation for a member planet to use torture.
So it seemed.
>
> Of course, in the Trek era, they can use the Vulcan mind-meld to
> interrogate anybody, without the need for physical torture.
True. Nobody in the entire TOS universe EVER had ANY problem with the
Vulcan mind meld as a means to obtain information.
I am forced to wonder: if nobody in the entire TOS universe had a
problem with it, why do we?
ToolPackinMama
Cites please?
ToolPackinMama
Blah blah blah, blah blah blah blah.
Your spin does does not facts make
The fact is that nobody in the TOS universe ever had a problem with mind
melds. Deny that and disprove it if you can.
ToolPackinMama
around screaming:
"Akkk! Stop him! He is trying to mind meld with me against my will! I
do not consent! Stop him! Akkk!"
And I would run around and cower and behave pleadingly toward any
sympathetic person.
I would holler "What he is trying to do is equivalent to rape! It's
totally against everything Vulcans believe in!"
Then I would collapse in a huddled ball and sob inconsolably.
Why? Cos I would totally be playing to my mostly human audience, that's
why. Even if Valeris was totally guilty, such tactics would have won
her some reprieve.
ToolPackinMama
It was described as a generally pleasant experience. It was described as
a fully mutual experience. It was shown to be a deeply affecting
experience.
Spock mind-melded several times in TOS. He always was deeply affected,
because it was explained to be, and way later simply understood to be a
DEEPLY INTIMATE EXPERIENCE.
Nobody in the TOS universe ever reacted to to any proposed mind-meld as
if it were a "violation" of anything. Probably because a mind-meld (as
understood in the TOS universe) was always a fully consensual and a
fully mutual experience.
redhawk
A Vulcan would not cry out so.
Pops Mear
<philn...@comcast.net> wrote:
>OK, Kirk et all were tortured many times, but when did they ever engage
>in torture?
In the very first TOS aired, "Man Trap," Spock repeatedly strikes the
salt monster (who is disguised as McCoy's old flame Nancy) to prove to
McCoy that it could not be Nancy. That's torture.
Anim8rFSK
Pops Mear <Pops...@here.usa> wrote:
Except, you know, for the part where it's not. Unless you think Spock
is torturing McCoy somehow or something. And then, still not.
Kweeg
news:821fb34a-665d-4522...@34g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
Good points John.
TPM get her "facts" mixed up, at least she's never let them get in the way
of how she views ST. She'll probably reply with some infantile response
like, I'm right and you're wrong 'cause I said so.
--
Qapla'
Kweeg
Ten of Canadian Clubs in the Eeeevil Trek Cabal
"Half a gallon a'scotch!" Scotty (Spectre of the Gun)
1,079,252,848.8 km/h, not just a good idea, it's the law.
"So say we all!"
Kweeg
news:ec1df816-f29a-4ed1...@a1g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
I hardy think that classifies at "torture" more like Kirk's style of cowboy
diplomacy.
Kweeg
news:dvl0749tls1e5qnfe...@4ax.com...
No that's assault,
redhawk
> "redhawk" <newfounds...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
I am inclined to agree, but one commentator made me think of it as
possible torture, with this vivid description:
"Once in her lair and surrounded by her comrades, Vanna turned the
tables and kidnapped Kirk. She took away his protective mask, and
humiliated him by forcing him to dig Zenite, as she and her people had
been forced to do for generations.
Kirk, while effected by the Zenite gas, suddenly decided that Vanna
had a great idea. He turned the tables on Vanna, blasted a rock wall
down to seal them in together, and then ordered Spock to beam nasty
big boss Plasus to the spot. Then he forced nogoodnik Plasus to dig
Zenite as Vanna and her people had been forced to do it for
generations... inhaling lungfuls of the toxic Zenite gas all the
while. Next thing you know, the two effected men were battling with
each other like enraged beasts... which effectively proved that Zenite
does have baleful effects on a person - which was a point that
previously had been in dispute."
So the forced zenite digging "humiliated" people and involved
"inhaling lungfuls of toxic" gas, pretty unpleasant stuff. At least
that is according to... http://allyourtrekarebelongto.us/disrupter.htm
;-)
Ragnar
Quibbling.
Wouter Valentijn
"Pops Mear" <Pops...@here.usa> schreef in bericht
news:dvl0749tls1e5qnfe...@4ax.com...
Nah...
www.nksf.scifics.com/nksfseries.html
liam=mail
Quadibloc
> Probably because a mind-meld (as
> understood in the TOS universe) was always a fully consensual and a
> fully mutual experience.
Yes. Elsewhere. What Spock did to Valeris may not have been a mind-
meld. But what we saw happen was certainly not consensual. It isn't
"spin" to point out what was clearly visible on the screen.
John Savard
GeneK
"Kweeg" <kw...@nospam.shaw.ca> wrote...
>> In the very first TOS aired, "Man Trap," Spock repeatedly strikes the
>> salt monster (who is disguised as McCoy's old flame Nancy) to prove to
>> McCoy that it could not be Nancy. That's torture.
>
> No that's assault,
From the salt creature's reaction, it was more
like a facial massage.
GeneK
WickeddollŽ
Redhawk
Nor would they be a traitor.
Natalie
WickeddollŽ
"Kweeg" ...
> "Quadibloc"
ToolPackinMama
<philnbl...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Look the first time the Mind Meld was ever used WAS in a criminal
>>> investigation, so basically, you are wrong - as far as I can tell- on
>>> all points.
>>
>> When I said "that sort of thing", I did not mean the mind meld _per
>> se_, and I think you should have been able to realize that perfectly
>> well. In addition to the mind meld, there are other related forms of
>> mental contact.
>>
>> For example, in "A Taste of Armageddon", Spock mentally influences a
>> guard to open the force-field to the entrance of a room in which he
>> and other Enterprise crew members are held prisoner.
>>
>> In the case of Valeris, the dialogue was clear. Valeris is smugly
>> refusing to answer a question put to her, thinking she would stymie
>> Kirk and company. Instead, she had made a choice - but not the kind
>> she expected.
>>
>> Against her will, and against her best resistance, Spock broke down
>> the barriers in her mind, and obtained a negative answer to his query.
>> Spock was visibly shaken at what he had done, however much the urgency
>> of the circumstances might have justified it, and his voice was
>> haunted as he gave the answer to Kirk.
I took that as Spock empathizing with her. Aren't mind-melds supposed to
make you "one" - so Spock should have felt the same pain Valeris did.
>>
>> The impression, therefore, that was intended by the film-maker for the
>> audience to obtain from that series of events is clear and obvious:
>> Spock had used his mental abilities in a way that would normally be
>> considered heinous, and he did use them upon Valeris in a way contrary
>> to her expressed wishes, to her will, and to her fierce resistance.
>>
>> I don't know why you wish to claim that you can use "facts" to argue
>> against what we have witnessed, what we have seen and heard before us.
>
> Good points John.
> TPM get her "facts" mixed up, at least she's never let them get in the way
> of how she views ST. She'll probably reply with some infantile response
> like, I'm right and you're wrong 'cause I said so.
>
> --
>
> Qapla'
> Kweeg
I'm certainly not taking sides; I think both sides have points, but since
entertainment is so subjective, I haven't really given it much thoughts.
Natalie
Wouter Valentijn
"WickeddollŽ" <wickeddollnof...@yahoo.com> schreef in bericht
news:g4q7s5...@news.evilcabal.org...
> "redhawk":
>> If I were Valeris, and I didn't want to be mind-melded with, I would run
>> around screaming:
>
>
Not in /that/ manner.
>
> Redhawk
>
> Nor would they be a traitor.
>
Don't know about that one...
If a Vulcan considered 'betrayel' as a logical course of action...
www.nksf.scifics.com/nksfseries.html
liam=mail
George Peatty
wrote:
>>> Of course, in the Trek era, they can use the Vulcan mind-meld to
>>> interrogate anybody, without the need for physical torture.
>> All Trek consistently shows that the meld, when resisted, induces pain and
>> psychic distress ..
>Cites please?
Fusion, Stigma, and the Awakening, all Enterprise episodes ..
Quadibloc
> all Enterprise episodes ..
*All* Enterprise episodes? I didn't know mind-melds could be performed
over television...
John Savard
Quadibloc
> > No that's assault,
I suppose he could be accused of torturing McCoy...
John Savard
Karl Johanson
news:kOOdnQ3U-LZjJvLV...@comcast.com...
> Karl Johanson wrote:
>> "ToolPackinMama" <philn...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>
>>> 4) I don't see how fighting an android who never feels any real pain and
>>> who caused Kirk real pain in the process counts as Kirk "torturing"
>>> somebody else.
>>
>> How do you know the droid doesn't feel pain?
>
> I don't think of a fist fight that the android fully consented to and
> happily participated in as "torture" by any measure, pain or not. It was
> fully mutually consented to.
>
> It was not a case of the android being tortured while Kirk had all the
> power and the android was helpless and very unhappy. Quite the contrary.
>
> Finnegan invited the fight. He also struck the first blow.
>
> After he and Kirk had exhausted themselves, the two agreed that they had
> gotten something positive from the encounter, so it wasn't all one sided
> either. They were equally matched: it wasn't like Kirk was bullying a
> much weaker opponent.
>
> That is not torture. Plain and simple.
I agree that fighting isn't necessarily torture and that the Finnegan droid
started it. My question was, how do you know the droid doesn't feel pain?
Karl Johanson
ToolPackinMama
Oh for cryin' out loud... NOTE TOPIC SUBJECT LINE
ToolPackinMama
Well, that's debatable. How about if I just said "tain't so"? :)
Look the thing was attacking Jim. Of course Spock went berserk. The
best way for any endangered species to get on Spock's bad side is to
attack Jim. It happened in Devil In The Dark, too. Spock was all "It
can't be killed, that would be an offence against science!" UNTIL it
threatened his precious Jimmykins. THEN he's all "Kill it! Kill it NOW!"
Quadibloc
> Oh for cryin' out loud... NOTE TOPIC SUBJECT LINE
He wasn't talking about Archer torturing or not torturing anyone. He
was talking about the properties of the mind-meld, about which _all_
Star Trek continuity might provide evidence.
John Savard
George Peatty
says...
>>>>> Of course, in the Trek era, they can use the Vulcan mind-meld to
>>>>> interrogate anybody, without the need for physical torture.
>>>> All Trek consistently shows that the meld, when resisted, induces pain and
>>>> psychic distress ..
>>> Cites please?
>> Fusion, Stigma, and the Awakening, all Enterprise episodes ..
>Oh for cryin' out loud... NOTE TOPIC SUBJECT LINE
You expanded the boundaries of the discussion yourself when you wrote above "
..in the Trek era" I responded to what you said, and even had you wrote TOS
instead of Trek above, what was said about the meld elsewhere can shed light on
the understanding of the TOS episodes under discussion. That is, after all,
what canon is all about: the systematic unification of those episodes into a
cohesive, meaningful whole.
ToolPackinMama
Look if it didn't occur in TOS then no one can say that "all Trek" ANYTHING.
Using ENT to "prove" blanket statements about all Trek in a TOS
thread... GOOD LORD... I don't believe anything could be profitably said
to either of you. I believe you are both utterly hopeless. I wash my
hands of you.
ToolPackinMama
about TOS is incorrect.
ToolPackinMama
> In article <lsKdnX8oj71PIuzV...@comcast.com>, ToolPackinMama
> says...
>
>>>>>> Of course, in the Trek era, they can use the Vulcan mind-meld to
>>>>>> interrogate anybody, without the need for physical torture.
>
>>>>> All Trek consistently shows that the meld, when resisted, induces pain and
>>>>> psychic distress ..
>
>>>> Cites please?
>>> Fusion, Stigma, and the Awakening, all Enterprise episodes ..
>
>> Oh for cryin' out loud... NOTE TOPIC SUBJECT LINE
>
> You expanded the boundaries of the discussion yourself when you wrote above "
> ..in the Trek era"
I feel constrained to point out that that wasn't me.
GeneK
> That is, after all, what canon is all about: the
> systematic unification of those episodes into a
> cohesive, meaningful whole.
That was hard enough to do when TPTB didn't make an
effort to be consistent with TOS. It became impossible
when they started hiring people who had never even
seen TOS and didn't make an effort to even know what
they were being inconsistent with. The only way that
"Enterprise" can ever be shoehorned into Trek canon
is by adopting the view that the finale episode revealed
the entire series to be a bad holodeck drama.
GeneK
Frank R.A.J. Maloney
I'm not disputing anything you write. But isn't it true that TV series
usually have "bibles" that provide backstories for the major characters
and notes on the stories to guide writers and keep things consistent? If
this is true, then, did "Star Trek" not maintain such a "bible"?
--
Frank in Seattle
____
Frank Richard Aloysius Jude Maloney
"Millennium hand and shrimp."
GeneK
news:vJOdnQcomLr02O_V...@posted.isomediainc...
> I'm not disputing anything you write. But isn't it true that TV series
> usually have "bibles" that provide backstories for the major
> characters and notes on the stories to guide writers and keep things
> consistent? If this is true, then, did "Star Trek" not maintain such a
> "bible"?
TOS had a "writers guide" that Gene Roddenberry produced
for the second season of the series that was reasonably well
adhered to during that season, then was pretty much thrown
out when Fred Freiberger took over production for the last
season (this is different from the "technical manual" that was
published after TOS was cancelled).
Roddenberry wrote similar guides for the first few seasons
of TNG (also different from the published "technical manual."
After that, I don't know.
GeneK
Wouter Valentijn
Only if you know for sure the droid isn't wired / programmed that way.
www.nksf.scifics.com/nksfseries.html
liam=mail
Wouter Valentijn
To McCoy it certainly could have been torture, but I doubt Spock intended
that.
He simply wanted to make a point.
www.nksf.scifics.com/nksfseries.html
liam=mail
Anim8rFSK
"Frank R.A.J. Maloney" <fr...@blarg.net> wrote:
> GeneK wrote:
> > "George Peatty" <pttyg4...@copper.net> wrote...
> >> That is, after all, what canon is all about: the
> >> systematic unification of those episodes into a
> >> cohesive, meaningful whole.
> >
> > That was hard enough to do when TPTB didn't make an
> > effort to be consistent with TOS. It became impossible
> > when they started hiring people who had never even
> > seen TOS and didn't make an effort to even know what
> > they were being inconsistent with. The only way that
> > "Enterprise" can ever be shoehorned into Trek canon
> > is by adopting the view that the finale episode revealed
> > the entire series to be a bad holodeck drama.
>
> I'm not disputing anything you write. But isn't it true that TV series
> usually have "bibles" that provide backstories for the major characters
> and notes on the stories to guide writers and keep things consistent? If
Yes
> this is true, then, did "Star Trek" not maintain such a "bible"?
Little Freddy Freiberger, the third season producer, had never seen
Trek. He came in, watched 3 episodes, said "Don't show me any more, I
know what you want: Tits in Space" and proceeded to make bizarre
pronouncements like "Star Trek doesn't do comedy" and "McCoy can't have
an adult daughter because he's the same age as Kirk and Kirk isn't old
enough (every part of that statement is wrong)"
This is the guy who went on to destroy Space: 1999 on purpose, throwing
scripts at writers shouting WHY DO YOU BRING ME WHIPPED CREAM WHEN I
WANT SHIT and explaining to interviewers that TV is *supposed* to be bad.
I think we can assume he didn't read the series bible. :)
--
Star Trek 09:
No Shat, No Show.
Led4Aces
> My own right-wing view is that Guantanamo is regrettable - but one of
> the causes of it is a legal system too apt to release dangerous
> criminals on technicalities.
Baloney. Dangerous criminals are rarely released on technicalities. Do
you actually think Osama (if he was ever caught) would be released on
a technicality? What are you smoking? The fact is that Guantanamo
exists without habeas corpus because the bushistas HAVE NO CASE
against the people they are holding in their "Tower of London". They
can't hold trials without any real evidence, if they thought they
could make a case they would have done it by now. Guantanamo is
nothing more than a gulag and something that continues to put the US
in a bad light to the rest of the world.
So rather than a simplistic answer that
> seems moral, but leads to the unacceptable consequence of perhaps
> turning terrorists loose, I think we should fix the legal system, draw
> distinctions between what the essential rights of the accused are, and
> the extent to which they have been expanded to excess in recent years,
> and then even terrorists could be handled, in an appropriate way,
> within the framework of the normal legal system.
You assume the people held in Guantanamo were in fact, terrorists.
Some might be, but many were simply rounded up by Warlords and turned
over to the US for a reward. Right wingers only believe in Habeas
Corpus when they are the ones arrested.
redhawk
When put in a spot where logic seems to conflict with loyalty, I think
a Vulcan can be "disloyal" for the sake of logic. It was illogical to
trust the Klingons, who were not trustworthy, therefore acceptable to
become a "traitor" and ruin the peace treaty. I do agree that a
Vulcan should have had a more subtle and ingenious plan to prevent the
treaty being signed, than crudely killing the Federation president.